TAPE 78/AH/01
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 7TH OF SEPTEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Fred Inman at ease in the tackler's cabin.
Right what I'm going to do Fred is ask you some questions and as I say some of these questions will seem a bit, you know it'll seem to be very simple, but the thing is that when we've done these tapes everything will be very clear.
And also, it's funny how, when you ask the simple questions, you get on to something entirely different if you feel like digressing. If I say something to you and it triggers you off and you think of something, you feel free, because that's what it's about. It's a conversation not an interview. It always takes a while just to break that feeling down but it's just a conversation, because I’m interested, I want to know. 1 want to know about childhood and how things were because I often think there's a lot of people having it far to easy nowadays and they want reminding about the old days. Things like people, well since talking to Ernie, every time I see somebody with bow legs about Ernie's age…
R - Malnutrition eh..
That's it, that's just it, but before I started doing this I never thought about that.
R – No.
Well there you are you see, you’re learning.
R - Aye you learn all time, don't you.
Yes. Anyway how old are you Fred?
R- 69 (Sixty nine).
And where were you born?
R- Earby.
Whereabouts, what street, do you know the address?
R- Well Albion Street, Earby. That ‘ud be it.
Aye. Which is Albion Street?
R - It's at the back of Albion Mill.
That's it.
R- That were Booth & Speak’s.
That's it yes. And how many years did you live in the house you were born in?
R- Oh, happen only about four.
Yes. So your parents moved when you were about four year old?
R - That's it. I can’t remember flitting but they were building some new houses and me father and mother they bought one of these new houses. Well they fastened one [put down a deposit] and that were the first house I can really remember living in properly.
Aye. Whereabouts was that Fred?
R - That was up Lincoln Road just across from Albion Street.
Aye, that's it.
R- And we lived there oh, quite a while.
That ‘ud be just afore the first world war, that ‘ud be 1913 if you were four.
R- Aye it would be something like that, yes.
(50)
Yes, you were born in 1909..
R- Eight.
Oh, you’re seventy this year, you’re sixty nine now.
R- Seventy this time.
When’s your birthday Fred?
R- December the nineteenth.
Oh we'll know then to come and start pulling your hair!
R – Aye, I’ll get it cut then. I’ll get it cut off. [laughs]
Well, they made that move because they wanted to move into a better house, obviously.
R- Oh yes.
That's it. And where was your father born?
R- He had a lot of bother finding out, when he were sixty five. [This would be in connection with him proving his age in order to draw his state pension. My father had a similar problem when he had to prove he was born in Australia when he applied for British citizenship. There were no birth certificates in 1896 in Australia and eventually he satisfied the government by getting an affidavit from the minister at the church where his birth was registered.{ Civil Registration of births, marriages and deaths started on 1 July 1837 in England and Wales. This was later expanded in 1927 to also include still births, and adoptions.}]
His father were one of them like they used to be in them days, a journeyman. Working round reservoirs then coming home, you know. After he’d left, his wife would be having another youngster.
That’s it.
R- And I think me father were born somewhere around Pateley Bridge way.
Aye, so was he a navvy?
R- Me grandfather were, and builder.
Yes.
R- In his later years when he settled down a bit he got on house building then.
(5 min)
Aye.
R- And in fact he built some houses just across there, not these mills, them just across at t’back.
Aye, going down to t’back of Red Lion Street there.
R- Aye, Red Lion Street, Alder Hill View they called it and they had a rough time. Like me father had a rough time when he were a youngster, sommat like Ernest would have.
Aye.
R- Aye me father would be one of about eleven. His mother and the biggest part of family lived in Keighley then. They were allus moving about and of course me grandfather beggared off and started living with another woman.
Aye.
R - Left them. Well when, as children came on and old enough, they'd to get away.
Yes.
R- Well when me father were about fifteen his older sister would be about seventeen she came to Earby. He’d to get out, away you know.
Yes.
R - Then when me father were old enough he came to Barlick.
Aye.
R- And then he came from Barlick to live with his sister in Earby and I don't know, they'd live in a cottage or sommat and then me auntie got wed and me father got wed. and they both stopped in Earby till they died.
Aye. What was your fathers name Fred?
R- Parkinson Inman.
Aye.
R- And that's an old name in the Inman family is that.
My God, it's a fine name isn’t it.
R- Aye you'll find it a lot in the Dales, Parkinson Inman.
Yes aye. Where does, Inman always strikes me as an Earby name, I don’t know why. Where does it originate from? Do you know?
[[The Oxford Dictionary of surnames says that it is Old English, ‘inn-mann’, a publican or lodging house keeper.]
R - Yorkshire. Well there's a few of 'em round, there were, round Bolton Abbey, Burnsall, Appletreewick.
(100)
Aye.
R- There were a few Inmans. And then there were a few Inmans in Skipton. I suppose going back a long while they'd be all from one family.
Like Dales families aye. That's it aye,
R- There were some Inmans you know, further up the Dales.
And so your mother were born at Keighley?
R- No me mother were born at Earby me father were born at Keighley.
That's it aye. Sorry, that's it. I were thinking about your grandmother there. And what was your mothers full name? What was your mothers name?
R - Elizabeth Turner, they were a very old Earby family were them.
Aye, there's still a lot of Turners in Earby isn't there.
R- Yes. And they had a butchers shop on Water Street. I’ve heard me mother tell, they killed in the shop, part of the shop.
Aye.
R - And she'd only be about seven or eight when her father died, so she had a brother older than her and him and his mother they carried on and run butchers shop and me uncle had it until during and finishing up of this war.
Aye.
R- The second world war. He stuck it, he were a well known character.
Aye.
R- They were hard times were them like. I've heard me mother talk about going to Thornton wi’ a basket full of meat and then coming back and going to school.
Yes.
R- When they had to take their slate pencils and that.
Aye, that's it. How many brothers and sisters did you have?
R- I only had one brother.
Oh, there were just two of you. How many confinements did your mother have, did she just have two?
R- Two.
Yes. No, the reason I ask that, I never used to ask people that question and then it turned out Ernie Robert’s mother had eleven confinements and four survived, that were all.
R- Aye.
Now that's rough isn't it.
R- It is aye.
When you think.
R- Yes.
And of course you live and learn you see. So now I ask how many there were in the family and I ask how many confinements there were because there can be a vast difference.
R - Oh yes.
Yes. And were you the eldest of the two?
R – No, I were the youngest. Me brother were a year and nine month older than me.
Is he still alive Fred?
(10 min)
R- No. He were a gardener for the council and I think he must have swallowed some poison of some description. He’d be off and on for nine year bedfast and walking about and bedfast and walking about.
When you say swallowed some poison you mean, poison accident or..
R - Weed killer. Accident aye, weed killer. Aye well that's what I think and he thought the same.
(150)
Aye.
R - You know you could have had some on your finger and…
Yes.
R- ..and put it on your lip or sommat like that. 'Cause it were like a fever what he started with and he started rambling and he had several doctors and nobody had seen owt like it before. And he were lucky in one way, he got all his blood changed. They changed all his blood and they had specialists from down Bradford and further afield to come and look at him at Skipton.
Aye.
R- And he used to blow up like a balloon. He’d be about sixteen stone at some times and then they'd take him down to Skipton and diet him down to about twelve.
Aye.
R- And then they'd send him home again then and once he’d got a lot of this weight up he couldn't walk then so they used to diet him and fetch him down and then he could walk.
It sounds like a rotten do Fred.
R- Oh aye it were a rotten do. His wife had a rough do.
Aye
R- Like, you know, if he weren’t at home he were at hospital at Skipton.
Yes.
R- She had a rough do.
And of course nothing would ever be put down. You know, I mean when I say put down, you know, it would never be actually proved that it was anything like that.
R- No, there were nowt ever proved.
No, there’d have been a big compensation case if there had wouldn't there.
R- Mmm. But he finished up wi’ gangrene, that finished him off.
Aye, well it sounds like a bad do anyway. When you were young can you ever remember any relations living with you, you know, for any period of time?
R - Only had an aunty live wi’ us a bit.
Aye.
R- Aye. A few year. Well I'm saying, happen eighteen months.
Was there a reason for that?
R- Well, she had never been married and I think if I remember reight, it were in them days when they rented houses and your landlord could get you out, make it awkward for you.
Aye.
R- I think that were one reason why she came. She lived with us a bit and then she went to live wi’ another sister at Brierfield. Then she lived with me uncle a bit. Then eventually she finished up at Keighley in some kind of a home. She weren’t mental or owt of that sort.
Aye.
R - She lived there.
Aye like an old folks home.
R- Aye. And she come to a sad end. Went out for a walk one night and a storm came and it blew her into a dam and she drownded.
In Keighley.
(200)
R- Aye, just going up out of Keighley there were a dam. She must have had her umbrella up and gone plodding on or sommat, and not been looking were she were going and gone into where this dam were. Walked into it, there were no railings round and she drowned herself before anybody could get her out.
How long ago were that Fred?
R- Twenty year.
Aye, about fifty eight?
R- Mmm.
It's a sad job. Aye. Did you ever have any lodgers?
R- Before I were born.
Before you were born aye.
R- Aye, they called him Fred, that’s who I were called after.
Is that right?
R – Aye.
Aye.
R- And he were a joiner when they built Earby church. He worked for Charlie Watson.
Aye.
R- And Charlie Watson's did all the joinery work at Earby Church and he worked for them.
When was that church built Fred? Do you know the date?
R - 1906 happen.
Yes. And when you were born what was your fathers job, what was his job?
R - Overlooker. Tackler.
Tackler, he was a tackler.
R- He were a tackler yes.
And where was he working at Fred?
R- Oh, when I were born, happen at Shuttleworth’s. He’d worked at Shuttleworth’s and what they called Hugh Currer’s. Aye it would be Shuttleworth’s.
Where were Shuttleworth’s weaving, which mill were they in?
R- In Big Mill,
Big Mill aye. Tell me something, is Big Mill the same as Victoria?
(15 min)
R - Well they do call it Victoria mill.
Aye.
R- But one's on Albert Street and the other, they just call it Big Mill. Victoria Mill, that were where the big engine were and all that.
Yes.
R- That's Victoria.
Aye.
R- Although they called the other the Dock Yard as we said. Johnsons, Victoria Mill. That were the address of it.
Aye, that's it, like you go into it from the other end now. Like that big shed.
R - Aye.
Aye. I think I've heard some of them call it the Ballroom, haven't I.
R- Oh, that's the middle room in the big mill, the Ballroom. You know, there's a ground floor in the warehouse. And then there's a floor that one half had looms in and the other half was a warehouse and tapes and then above that there were twisting rooms and tape rooms belonging other firms.
Aye, that's it. Aye three storeys there.
R- Three storeys, aye.
Did your father have any other jobs, he'd be a tackler till he died, would he?
(250)
R- No, he were a tackler till 1932 and he bought some land and he built a house on it and started a poultry farm.
Where were that at Fred?
R- Up Stoneybank here, top of Stoneybank.
Aye.
R- And he were on that while me mother started being poorly and they had a good do, enjoyed their selves up there, me mother did an all. And then they came back, he sold it and went to Foulridge. A fellow that lived at Foulridge what bought that, poultry farm, so they swapped, they went into his house at Foulridge did me father until he got this empty, he belonged this, and it came empty did this so he came back into it.
Aye, that's this house is it?
R- This house aye.
Aye.
R- Aye, like he flit from Lincoln Road here in 1927.
Aye. We might as well get it down what's the address of this house.
R- 14 Stoneybank Road.
Aye.
R- But it used to be 14 Spring Terrace.
Aye, Spring Mill.
R- Until they made this on here.
Aye.
R- Aye and when they built a row on here and called It Spring Mount and then they built a row further up and called it Spring Field.
Aye Spring Field school.
R- The school, well they were getting mixed up you know, [mail for]14 Spring Terrace were going to 14 Spring Mount or 14 Spring Field so they changed the address to 14 Stoneybank Road then.
Aye, all Stoneybank, aye. Oh there's happen a bit of sense in it.
And before he was a tackler obviously, well I say obviously, he’d be a weaver would he, your father?
R- Yes. When he left school at first he worked in engineering. He did a bit of engineering like labouring, apprentice and mugging about,
Yes. Now your father, when he left school where would he be living. Would he be living in Earby?
A - No Keighley.
Ah, that's It. That's what I was thinking about engineering. About what age would he be when he moved to Barlick. You said he went to Barlick didn't you?
R- He’d only be about fifteen or sixteen.
Aye, and when he went to Barlick what did he do then do you know?
R- Weaving.
Weaving aye, no idea where?
R- No, I’ve no idea. And when he came to Earby he’d be weaving when he came to Earby. And he were one of lucky ‘uns that got to learn to tackle. It were a thing what were handed down from father to son weren’t it. Relation to relation were tackling. Well he must have been a lucky fellow to get to..
(300)
Either that or ‘cause he was a good man,
R – Aye. to get to learn.
That's as likely a thing as any because it was the good ‘uns that got to be tacklers wasn't it.
R- Mmm. And they used to have to be what they call strong in t’back and weak in th’head hadn't they. They'd to be able to carry these warps and that carry on.
Aye.
R- Well he were never really a big fellow, but he weren’t any dummy like, he could tackle.
Yes because that’s something a lot of people won't realise, that in your father’s day when he were tackling, the tacklers used to carry the warps in didn't they.
R- Yes, oh aye.
(15 min)
They didn't have trolley's, they carried 'em on their shoulder.
R - biggest part of 'em were to carry. Well a good half of them were to carry.
Yes, aye.
R- There were pillars in every other alley, weren’t there.
Yes, aye.
R- But I think in them days they could have lifted a lot more in, you know, two’d 'em.
Yes.
R- But they were that jealous and envious of one another you know, you couldn't do with waiting at the alley end of the other tackler coming [to help you] 'cause he’d make you wait as long as he could because that loom were stopped and every pick counted in them days. [Competition between tacklers to get most wages which relied on the weaver’s production]
Yes.
R- So they used to hoist 'em up on their shoulder and away.
Aye. How old was your dad when he died?
R - Seventy eight.
Oh. well carrying warps didn't do him a lot of harm then did it.
R - No, no. He were allus a fresh air fellow.
Yes, well you are aren’t you.
Aye.
And what year were that Fred?
R - When he died ... nineteen fifty four.
Fifty four.
R - I think that ‘ud be it. Me mother died in fifty two and he died in fifty four.
How old were your mother when she died?
R- About seventy ... seventy four I think.
Aye, well they were both a good age then weren’t they.
R- Aye.
How long had they been married, do you know? It would be a fair while wouldn't it.
R- I couldn't say.
It could be fifty year, couldn’t it.
R- Mm. No they hadn't their Golden wedding. I wouldn’t like to say Stanley.
No. It wouldn't be so far off though, anyway, would it.
R- No, it ‘ud be getting on.
So before your mother married your father he’d be living in Earby. They'd meet in Earby would they?
R- Yes.
Yes. And what would she be doing, she'd be working?
R - Aye. She'd be weaving and helping in the butchers shop and that carry on.
That’s it aye. Yes, the butchers shop. And have you any idea where she wove?
R - No I haven't, I haven't any idea.
It doesn’t matter if you don't know.
R- I only know she could weave.
Yes. Where was your father’s last job?
(350)
R- Working. A.J. Birley’s.
Birley’s.
R- Albion Mill.
Albion, yes.
R- Yes, that was his last job inside.
Aye and then he took to poultry farming.
R - Poultry farming mm...
Aye the out door man, aye. Yes, well I'll turn my little bit of paper over. After she were married did your mother still work In the mill, did she carry on working in the mill.
R – No.
Why was that Fred?
R- As far as I know she finished work and she'd to look after me father. You know what they were in them days.
That's right, yes. No, I understand, I’m a bit that way meself Fred.
R- Aye.
My wife's never worked full time and that's one of the reasons I think.
R- So she never worked full time.
Yes, but that was fairly, it wasn't really common that was it.
R- No it weren’t no.
It wasn’t really common in those days. And so she gave up weaving and looked after the house and obviously when you and your brother come along, the two children. What was your brothers name Fred?
R- Melbourne. Melbourne.
What a good name.
R- After billiard player.
[July 15th 1878. Birth of Melbourne Inman. Four times Professional Champion of English Billiards, 1912 - 1919; and winner of the first ever match to be played in the World Snooker Championships. He beat Tom Newman 8 - 5 in a match which began on 29th November, 1926, and finished on 6th December.]
I think you come out wi’ the sticky end wi’ your name I’ll tell you. Now wait a minute what did you say then? After a billiard player?
R- There were a billiard player weren’t there, a professional billiard player called Melbourne Inman.
I didn't know that.
R- Mm. I think he’d be an Australian. Yes he were up Davis’s street and all that.
[Fred Davis]
Aye.
R- I can remember when I were a kid they used to talk about him.
And was your dad keen on billiards or something then?
R – No, I've no idea.
It just tickled his fancy?
R- It happen just struck him you know.
Aye that's it. It's a fine name anyway isn't it. Parkinson Inman and Melbourne Inman.
R- Aye.
I’ll tell you a funny thing about names like that, there's the foreman at Gisburn auction, a fellow called Clarkson and his name was Pliny Clarkson.
R - Aye.
And I said to him one day I said Pliny, “How did you get that name?” He said “Well you know who Pliny was, don't you?” I said “Aye, he were either a Greek or a Roman philosopher.” “Well” he says “It were me grandad. He were mad, on classics.
(400)
And all of us have silly bloody names like that. I'm called Pliny and one of ‘em’s called Aristotle.” I told him he hadn’t come out too badly, at least it was a short name! It makes you wonder sometimes, it's as bad, they always used to say that one of Cramp Hoyle's daughter's was called Olive but I don't know whether to believe that or not.
R - Does that Clarkson live in Earby now?
You know he could do because he had to give up, he had a bit of a bad heart..
R- That's it aye...
(25 min)
And he does some car dealing.
R- That’s it and he has all the land at the back of Spring Mill. He’s fenced it all off and he has a cow and a couple of calves on and sheep and hens, pigs.
Well that'll be Pliny.
R- Aye he's a reight grand fellow to talk to.
Oh aye he's a nice bloke, big fellow, round face aye.
R- Very nice, good looking fellow.
Anyway, so your mother didn't need anybody to look after the children because she was at home looking after them. And would that, no, you've told me it was in Lincoln Street wasn't it.
R - Lincoln Road. aye.
Lincoln Road, that's it aye. And your brother stayed in the town as well, he didn’t leave the town.
R- No.
No. Did any of the family, you know, that were fairly close to you, that were living in Earby, there would be others of your family, of course there were. Did any of them leave the town in about 1930? You know, when times were bad.
R- No.
You know, leave because they were short of work?
R- No.
No, quite a few left Barlick then and went to places like Earby and what not.
R- No, I'd just one relation and he went in 1920.. 1925 sommat like that. To Whitefield near Manchester and he finished up there. But I mean trade weren’t reight good when he left but it weren’t in the 1930’s or owt of that.
Aye that's it. Now then I’m going to ask you some questions now and they'll take you right back to your childhood. You’ll start remembering things you thought you’d forgotten. Now the house you'll remember best is Lincoln Road.
R- Yes.
And how long did you live in that house Fred? You went when you were four year old so...
R- Let's see I’d happen be about eleven.
(450)
Aye. Good for the brain is this you know Fred!
R - Aye.
I can hear the wheels squeaking here!
R- {Stanley and Fred laugh] Aye well actually he sold that house in Lincoln Road and he bought one what were in Stoneybank at the other side of road and then me brother would be twelve when we went up there. Nearly thirteen 'cause I know he started work, he got two looms while we lived in that other house.
Yes.
R- And then he were allus after a bit of land for some hens and he couldn't get any up here so he went back next door in Lincoln Road to where we’d lived before.
Oh.
R- And it were where we lived first time. It were just two up and two down. Well the next house, it were three bedrooms, there were a little kitchen, living room and a front room and three bedrooms.
Aye.
R- Then that got a bath in then you know, we had a bathroom.
That's it.
R- We had a wash basin upstairs, well we thought we were sommat then.
Oh aye, you'd be living like kings. Aye well, we'll talk about, what we'll talk about is the first house in Lincoln Road, the two up and two down one. So well, there you are, how many bedrooms did it have, two. Aye, so your mother and father would be in one bedroom and you and your brother would be in the other. What other rooms were there Fred?
R - Well a kitchen, you could have lived in it if you'd have wanted, but there were no fireplace in.
Aye.
R- And then a decent living room.
Aye.
R- With an old fire range in and that.
Yes. So there wasn't like a front room as such.
R - No,
No, no that's it, aye. And so this living room, that had the fireplace in.
R- Yes.
What sort of a range were there In there Fred, was it a..
R- The old timer, iron, side boiler and...
Oven?
R - Oven and boiler.
Aye, black lead and silver sand. Aye. Can you remember any of the furniture in the house, does anything stick out in your mind?
R - Aye, we had one of them old time three piece suites. You know sofa and...
Leather?
R - Aye. Horse hair sticking out and prickling the back of your legs.
Is that right? [laughs]
(500)
R - And then there were two chairs, one were a bit bigger. That were father’s chair and t’other were a bit less that were a ladies chair and happen a couple of side chairs.
Aye.
R - And happen a couple of buffets for me and me brother to sit on.
(30 min)
R- Or if there were nobody about in winter time you sat on the carpet up to the fire.
Aye. When you say carpet up to fire, were it a carpet...
R- Th’old peg rug.
Peg rug. Everybody had a peg rug Fred. What were the floor? Were it wood or stone?
R- Wood. Wood in the house, stone in the kitchen.
Yes.
R - It used to be scoured round. There were no oilcloth on..
No.
R- Not in the kitchen, there were oilcloth in the house.
In the kitchen, ever put sand on it?
R- No, me mother used to scour it.
Aye. When you say scour it, scrub it out?
R- With a scouring stone.
Aye. So she’d donkey stone it?
R- Donkey stone.
Aye, aye Lion.
R - It were allus white she didn't use ginger.
I’ll tell you something you won't believe, I just bought a box full of donkey stones.
R- Aye, you've done well.
I went into a shop in Manchester and they were clearing a lot of stuff out. There's a box there on floor. I says How much are the donkey stones? This fellow says “You're joking.” I says “How much are they?” He says two and half pence each. I says I’ll take the box full.
R - Aye.
And do you know what there were as well? A copper posser.
R- Aye.
I says “How much is that?” He says £1.28. I says “I'll take that and all.” Brand new. Anyway that's besides the point. But I got some donkey stones, Lion Brand donkey stone and there were hard and soft and there were white and ginger an all. And there were some of ‘em reight old ‘uns you know, that weren’t cast, that were chopped out of the lump, aye. Anyway that's besides the point, we shouldn't be talking about things like that. Well you didn't have a parlour?
R- No.
So, the furniture was in the living room and which room did you have your meals in?
R- Oh we had 'em in house part.
(550)
Yes, that's it, not in the kitchen like.
R- No.
When you say the kitchen Fred, if the fireplace was in the living room, I assume your mother had a gas cooker.
R - Later on, yes.
Yes. Well what I'm trying to get at Fred is how could it be the kitchen if there wasn’t a fire in. You know if there were no gas cooker. You’d have to have something to cook on.
R- Well we used to call 'em kitchens. I don't know why. There were a sink and probably she used to do all her...
And she'd do her washing in there would she?
R- Aye, washing in the kitchen and I rather think she did all her kneading and that in kitchen.
Aye that's it.
R- And then fetched it in front of the fire when she'd kneaded it.
Aye that's it and so really, before she got her gas cooker, the cooking would be split like between kitchen and front room. Like actual preparation would be done in the kitchen and cooking in the front room.
R - Aye and then fetched in and put in the side oven.
Aye. Did you ever have a rack on pulley's.
R - Yes aye.
Aye.
R- That were in house part an all where fire were.
That's it, over the fire. Ever had any oat-cakes drying on it?
R – Aye, oat-cakes on it.
Aye.
R - Aye, they were popular were them.
Anyway we'll get on to food in a bit. Now that house in Lincoln Road, obviously you didn't have a bathroom. When you wanted a bath, what were it.
R - There were a bath in the kitchen. But when we’d had a bath, me mother used to have to ladle all the water out of it. It were a proper old iron bath you know, but she used to have to ladle the water out.
Aye.
R- It weren’t connected up to go into drain.
Aye, I see.
R - There must have been sommat about it when they built these houses and they put a bath in and I suppose it was, well you'll have to pay rates or sommat, water rates for a bath in. If it weren’t connected up to the sewer they didn't know you were using it. We used to put a hose pipe on to the tap.
(600)
Aye.
R- And put water into the bath with a hose pipe and then she used to have to ladle it out.
And when you say, did you have a back boiler? Was there a hot water system?
R- Aye we had a back boiler.
Oh well that were alright then weren’t it.
R- It were one of them tanks, it weren’t a copper tank, it were just straight up and into this here, like a cast iron square boiler.
Aye, aye upstairs.
R- No, it were in the kitchen.
Aye.
R- It were fairly well up to the roof.
That's it aye.
R- And there were no copper boiler down here.
What were it like, on a bracket, or let into the wall or..
R- No. It were built on some woods what came out and some woods down and then me father boarded it in and made like a cistern cupboard.
Aye.
R- But they didn't keep any clothes in there of course because it used to steam up. When the water got too hot it steamed up and you'd to run it off.
I’ve never heard or seen of one of them before Fred.
R- Aye it were an old timer but it did the job.
Yes, aye. And I always laugh when I ask this question. What night were bath night Fred?
(35 min)
R- Friday.
Do you know everybody's bath night were Friday.
R- Aye.
Everybody, and it was a job filling that bath and it was a job emptying it.
R - Aye.
Who got in first?
R- We both got in together when we were kids.
That's it. And then did that water get chucked out or did your mother use it or did your father use it?
R - No it were chucked out because, in fact I think me father would have a bath when we were playing out sometime..
Aye.
R- It weren’t a popular do like for me father and me mother having 'em at Friday, they'd have ‘em when we were out.
Aye, that's it aye.
R - 'Cause there were no privacy.
No that's it. Aye and people were more, you know, I mean…
R- More Victorian in them days.
Well more reticent, aye yes in some ways yes. And did you have a closet, was it inside our outside.
(650)
R - Outside, tippler.
It were a tippler aye, were it a deep one?
R - No it weren’t reight deep up there.
Aye. Ever any trouble with the tippler box?
R- No, me father used to keep it well oiled and lift the flag up and put some oil on.
I always said, we used to have a tippler at Sough, not so long since, about 1956, and I always used to say that there were nowt wrong with tipplers as long as you kept ‘em clean and you looked after them. I think they were a good idea and it were grand in winter if some reight hot water come down, if somebody were having a bath.
R- Aye.
Aye 'cause it could warm it up couldn't it!
R - It could! [Laughs]
I'll tell you where the best tippler were for that. I've heard Newton Pickles talk about it. There were two tipplers in the yard at Wellhouse mill and the drain that they went into must have been a common drain with some water that were coming out of the engine house and he said in winter it were lovely. He said it was a two seater and he said if you sat on one all steam come up through the other. [Laughs] And he said if two of you sat down, bye god he said you could get warmed up!
R- Aye.
Aye, and he said you could see steam puffing with the engine. You could see it, you know there must have been a drain running into it.
R- Aye, that's it.
You know, out of the engine.
R- Oh they were all right weren’t they, they did a job with all the waste water didn't they.
Yes.
R- Swilled it away.
And as you say, they didn’t waste any water.
R- No.
No, like anything else, as long as they were looked after and kept clean. Would you say that tipplers then were a common thing or would there be some dry closets an all?
(700)
Well in Earby biggest part would be tipplers, there’d happen be an odd dry one here and there that’s all.
We're talking now like during the first world war aren’t we.
R- No Earby, they'd had new sewerage and same as Kelbrook there were a lot of night soil closets up there as they called 'em.
That’s it, night soil men, aye.
R- Thornton and ...
Can you, let's see 1909, you'd be five years old when the Great War started. Well the First war. Can you remember anything about it at all?
R- I can remember it starting, that's one thing that stuck in your memory. When you were going to school you know, they talked about war and may be the Territorials would come marching through and there’d be a camp put up on what we call Lina fields, on be the Punch Bowl.
What’s that name Fred?
R- Punch Bowl..
Yes but…
R- Lina, Lina field we allus called it.
[What is now the Punch Bowl Inn, just over the crossings at Earby, used to be Lina Laithe and Farm.]
Aye.
R- They used to, that seemed to be a half way do for a lot of soldiers. They’d come marching through Earby and then they'd put up there all night and we used to go on after school and they'd happen give you a plate full of broth or sommat like that.
Aye, that's it.
R- It were, we were really interested you know in 'em. Some on 'em would happen give you a drink of tea out of their mucky old enamel mug and that. You were really, though you were sommat when you’re stood there you know, and they were coming marching down and band playing you were going yourself you know, your feet were going. Many a time they were
(750)
(40 min)
coming down when we were going to school and eh, I wish we could walk at back of ‘em instead of going to school. We daren’t, we'd to go to school. And I can remember a lot of that you know, when it had been on a bit, you'd be going to school, one of the lads says “Me dads got killed”, you know. And another would happen say “Me mothers got a telegram, me dad's missing.” And it were every week there were sommat like that as you went to school but me father never had to go [reserved occupation]. There were three of 'em working at this mill where he worked during war, B and W Hartley's, Brook Shed, and there were only three tacklers and two got called up and it left me father then. And they put a lad, somebody on mugging about and they stopped a set of looms. So me father and this mug about had to run all the mill then. But one set were stopped. As time went on I can remember going down to the mill when school loosed. Some mornings, eight o'clock, I used to have to run to the mill. Me mother had fried him some bacon and egg or sommat like that and I'd to run to the mill wi’ it afore it got cold. But I were fairly lucky that way, he never used to say owt didn't boss about me going in and many a time a weaver 'ud happen want a bit of an errand running, and they daren’t go out and I’d happen go to shop for 'em. They'd give me an ha’penny for going. It were a real do were that,
(800)
Aye, which were a good do then.
R- It were a good do.
Aye.
R- And then as I got a bit older, happen about eight, if there were any things to go to the blacksmith, Mr Hartley used to say will you take these to the blacksmith. Well with me going to the blacksmith with this here, I got to stop there and watch the blacksmith mend 'em.
Were that in the same shop. Well, it was.
R- Where Stanley Whitakers is now.
Aye? Stanley Whitakers garage?
R- Yes that were the main,
Oh that were the blacksmiths were it?
That were the main blacksmith, Dodgson’s smithy.
Dodgson’s?
R- Yes.
Aye.
R – Aye, you felt you were a man when you were getting to do them things.
Aye. Can you, now wait a minute, no you'll not be able to. You wouldn't remember Henry Brown's having their workshop at…
R- Albion Road...
Albion Road would you?
R - Albion Street, yes.
Aye. 'cause that would be there when you were a lad.
R- Yes.
Henry Brown would start up there, wouldn't he?
R- That's it aye.
R- Aye it were at the bottom end of Albion Street and it were up to Albion Mill and shafting came through out of mill.
That's it.
R- To run it in there.
Yes, aye.
R- Aye I can remember that.
Anyway, you had piped water. And did you have a stair carpet?
R - Yes.
How was it held down Fred?
R- Them brass stair rods.
Aye, everybody had brass stair rods.
(850)
R- Aye and they used to polish 'em at spring cleaning day.
Aye. Who polished 'em, your mother?
R- Me mother aye.
And did the neighbours have a stair carpet an all? Did everybody have a stair carpet?
R- They had, they had up there up Lincoln Road. They were all just, you know, reasonably well off.
Yes, that's it.
There were nobody out and out poor.
How about curtains Fred?
R- Aye we had th’old lace curtains and paper blinds.
Aye, they were popular then weren’t they. Very popular, spring blinds, weren’t they aye.
R – Yes.
Can you remember any families not having curtains, you know, not having what we call proper curtains?
R- Well I could in Earby but not up Lincoln Road where we were.
Aye.
R - But you got, not belittling the place, but they used to talk about Dock Yard and up Muck Street, well they were same..
When you talk about Dock Yard and Muck Street what did you call them. I’ve heard old Earby folk.
R- Dock Yard..
Yes.
R- It were Albert Street. Facing what were Johnsons mill.
Yes.
(900)
R- It's pulled down now. Well there were some big families on there and I know there were one family, and they’re all grown up and all decent respectable people and I said to one of 'em “How did you used to sleep at your house?” He said “North, South, East and West in one bed.” [Laughs]
You can work that one out for yourself can’t you.
R- Aye.
(45 min)
And did the women in the street donkey stone door steps?
R - Aye.
All of em?
R- Yes.
Any of 'em do the kerb stones?
R - No, no.
Some people used to like. I tell nearly everybody this when we get to this question. I was once told, I can’t say whether it's true or not, that there was one street in Dukinfield that used to be famous, they used to blacklead the tram lines. They used to donkey stone the kerb edge and blacklead the tram lines. Now whether that’s right or not I don't know but I can imagine it you know.
R - Oh yes.
And how was the house lit Fred?
R - Gas.
Yes, were they fantails or mantles.
R – Mantles in the house and them like fantails in the kitchen.
Aye.
R- There were nowt upstairs. They were only in kitchen and..
So upstairs were candles?
R- Candles.
Aye. And not so often.
R- Oh now candle had to be blown out when you got into bed.,
That's it.
R- There were no wasting candles.
The ones with the mantles, were they incandescent?
R – Incandescent mantles.
Was there any covering over them or were they just bare mantles.
R- Well you used to get a globe now and again and they just, you know, they seemed to crack..
(950)
Aye.
R- Break and then you'd be ‘bout globe for a while.
Aye.
R- And then eventually they'd have happen saved a bob up and buy another globe.
Aye. How about moths coming in and breaking mantles, can you ever remember that happening?
R- Aye, they used to come in.
Aye flying in.
R- It were a tragedy were that!
Aye fluttering round the mantles.
R - Yes.
Aye. Can you remember anybody ever fitting a new mantle? You know when you fitted a new mantle? Did you like to watch it go black and then come up white?
R- That's it, aye and then it used to come up white.
Aye.
R- They were like woven weren’t they.
Yes they were, yes. Tilley mantles are exactly samey you know, for Tilley lamps now.
R- They were soft and, aren’t they.
Yes there like silica or sommat like that.
R- Silk, yes.
Did you ever have electric light in that house at Lincoln Road?
R- No, no.
Not while you were there.
R- No.
How did you get rid of the household rubbish Fred?
R- With the old ash pit. They used to put it in the ash pit and they used to come round and shovel it into a box cart.
Now, ash pits, there's a lot of people won't understand that nowadays. But the ash pit was like next door to the closet wasn't it, outside.
R- Yes, aye.
And everything that wouldn't burn got chucked in there didn't it.
R- Got chucked in there.
(1000)
But am I right in saying that you didn’t used to chuck stuff in there that would burn?
R - Oh no.
Because it would get to smell wouldn’t it.
R- That's it aye, all t’salmon tins and that, they were all burnt before they put 'em in. Well we did before we put ‘em in the ash pit.
Yes.
R - Any potato peelings, tea leaves, it all went on the fire. You'd to economise that way, damp fire down a bit.
Yes, not only that, but it destroyed a lot of stuff that wouldn’t be on the tip attracting rats and what not.
R- That's it.
Because that's biggest thing there is nowadays you know with central heating.
R- Yes aye.
These tips are full of stuff that attracts rats.
R- That's it aye.
(48 min)
SCG/09 April 2003
7,994 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/02
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 7TH OF SEPTEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
The first ten minutes of this tape are blank, owing to the fact that your interviewer made a stupid mistake and was recording for ten minutes with no input but I've left things exactly how they are and gone over some of the questions again without telling Fred actually what had happened until we finished the tape. So from here if you wind on about ten minutes you'll come to the beginning of the tape.
(132)
(9 mins)
R - We used to put it on and then we used to polish it off, wipe it off and polish it up. It were all elbow grease.
Aye.
R- And then there used to be the old ornaments, horses, bronze figures of horses of various descriptions. If you only had 'em today they'd be worth a lot of money.
Yes.
R- The old silver photo frames. It were a hard life for a woman there were no doubt about it because I’ve seen her many a time, she’d be all night, you know, mending me fathers overalls. Not at Sunday of course, happen at Saturday, she didn't go to the pictures. She couldn't go to pictures she had me father’s overalls to mend or sommat like that.
Aye.
R- They had to be just so for Monday morning.
Aye.
(150)
R- Because they wore like overalls and waistcoats and a blue jacket in them days. Sometimes they'd have fustian pants, fustian waistcoats and you got these fustian pants. If it were fine me mother used to lay 'em down in yard and get long brush and scrub 'em, get a reight lather on. [Fustian is cotton corduroy]
Aye. But like all the other washing would be done, well in the old days with a dolly tub and posser.
R- That's it.
And when she got her patent washing machine.
R - Oh aye.
They'd be done in there, She'd think it were a great day when she got that machine, wouldn't she?
R - Oh it were a marvellous thing were that aye.
Aye. Cast iron frame were it?
R - yes.
Aye.
R- I can remember, things come back to you don’t they.
Yes.
R- The kitchen window pushed up at the back, me mother washing at the sink under window. I stood on a buffet in back yard, that's why I never like standing on a buffet now. I fell off it and I bit me tongue and she had to leave her washing and take me down to doctors. It were just at the bottom of the street, there were a doctor. And I always remember he said “Well I can’t sew it.” It must have been badly cut. He put some nasty stuff on, I can remember that and I hadn’t to have any dinner and I hadn’t to have any tea and I hadn't to have any breakfast. And I had to just wet me lips or me mother had to wet me lips for me. It healed up and me mother said it bled a lot and I can remember going down with a hankie on and it were all full of blood.
Aye.
R- Now today like, I suppose they’d have just popped a stitch in it.
Aye.
R- It weren’t long of healing up though.
You say you were stood on buffet outside window. What were you stood on the buffet for, taking 'em through to wring 'em?
R - No, I were just watching me mother.
Yes, I see.
R- Just watching her.
Oh, she wouldn't have you in the kitchen, there were too much going on?
R- Well, I suppose it were a grand day and I were playing in the yard and I must have climbed on this buffet and were watching her.
Aye, and Stephenson’s polish, nobody else has been able to remember the name of that you know.
R- No.
R- Yes. It were Stephenson's, it were in a bottle and the neck went up and it had like a mushroom cork on.
Aye.
R- Yes.
Aye, and funnily enough, you know you were on about irons. There must have been more sorts of flat irons than I've had hot dinners. Everybody had a different sort.
R- There were some, they had a heaters, blocks of iron you put in the fire and then you put them into the iron.
(200)
That's it aye. That's what, when I say a box iron, that's what I think of as a box Iron.
R- Mm, oh yes, aye.
You know, they had a little door on back.
R- Aye that's it and you just shoved ‘em in.
And you just had a, well, you could have 'em in oven couldn't you, blocks of cast iron and just pop 'em in. [I was wrong here. Usually they were in the fire and used red hot.]
R- That's it, cast iron. They used to sell 'em at hardware stores, like ironmongers, ‘cause they used to burn away eventually.
Aye, yes.
R- Keep getting red hot.
Did you ever used to keep a couple of bricks in the oven for putting in bed.
R- No, we never did that.
No. My grandma used to always have some in and she used to scrub these bricks and she used to have these bricks in the oven and she used to wrap 'em in a piece of cloth and put 'em in bed you know. They were in the oven all day.
R- Aye.
With the cat. The cat used to be in oven and all. I can always remember that. Anyway, so your mother used to think a lot about her sideboard.
R - Oh yes.
That's it. And did you and your brother ever have any jobs to do round the house?
R- No, we never had a lot to do other than, me father had an allotment and we used to have to go on there. That were the main thing.
Aye.
R- That were all. As regards same as getting coal in or chopping wood, we never did owt of that.
Running errands?
R- Well we used to run errands but not a reight lot cause when me mother went shopping she, well they used to put a shopping order in and they used to fetch it round. She used to go and happen leave it at Monday and it would come at Monday night would the shopping order.
(15 mins)
What were that, Co-op?
R- No, it were what they called Albert Bailey's, a village store at the bottom of Stoneybank.
Aye.
R- We did used to go to the Co-op occasionally. Like we were members there but we used to get main of stuff at Bailey’s. You could get shoes there or clothes there owt you wanted, a little village store. We used to call there when we were going to school, have you any broken biscuits.
Aye that's it. You don't get them now. You buy 'em now in a packet don't you.
R- Aye that's reight.
In the old days you used to get 'em cheap after. [When I had the shop at Sough we sold biscuits loose out of the tin and there were always some broken bits in the bottom.]
R- Happorth (Halfpenny worth) of broken biscuits.
Aye, modernisation Fred, you get 'em in packet now.
R- Aye it were a twist were’t packet job weren’t it.
Aye. We were only talking about that the other day. In the old days you used to get all whole biscuits and broken ones used to get sold afterwards.
R - That's it.
But now if there's any broken ones they’re in the packet. You know yourself you can open a packet many a time and half of ‘em’s broken.
R - Aye you do.
Anyway, course you and your brother, there weren’t a lot between you so you wouldn’t be helping each other to dress or anything like that because you were about the same age. Did your father do any work in the house, you know, like mending and decorating or anything.
No. No he didn't do owt.
He never did anything in the house.
(250)
R- No. In them days they'd happen have Pratt. He were like a painter and decorator. He’d come up and he’d knock at doors, so and so wants painting, back and front, and are you owt in the way? And he’d get, we'll say there were fifteen houses up the row. He might get ten houses what were all in a mind to have it done. And then you know, they used to burn it off, they were all grained in them days. Burn it off and work up the street and then back you know. It took a lot of time did graining, didn't it. And then probably the following year he’d come round. “Do you want it varnishing?” And you used to get it varnished, it lasted ages. Back, when he used to do the back, well it were just green paint or sommat like that. That were a popular colour weren’t it.
Aye. Still is.
R- I don’t think me father ever painted at all and never did any papering.
And did he ever do anything like cleaning or cooking or…
R - No.
Bring coal in or owt.
R- He’d light the fire of a morning when he got up you know.
He’d be up first.
R- Oh, five o'clock or sommat like that.
Make your mother a cup of tea would he?
R- Well he’d leave the kettle on the bar.
Aye.
R- He had a little pan, it’d just hold about a cup full and a half of water.
Aye.
R- Measure three quarters of a cup full into it and put it on the fire. By the time he’d getten washed and ready it were boiling.
That's it, yes.
R- And then he’d fill the kettle and then that would be put on the hob.
Yes, ready for your mother when she come down.
R- Aye, when we got up, me mother got up and we got up. There were a kettle nearly boiling for breakfast.
Aye. That house in Lincoln Road, did your father own that?
R- Yes.
Have you any idea what he paid for that house when it was new?
R- Yes. I've heard him tell. They were only £195 and he got a vestibule put up and it might have been that cistern cupboard doing, it were £200.
When you say a vestibule, you mean like a partition in the hall between the front door and house like.
R- Aye well front door opened straight into the house.
Yes.
R- And they just got another extra bit of a partition fit in.
That’s it yes. Just to stop draughts and what not aye.
R - Aye well..
£195..eh.
R- Aye £200. When they sold it houses had gone up. What did they get, about £350, sommat like that.
Aye.
R – After the first war.
Yes. Course I mean he’d have more to pay for the one he were buying so it makes no difference.
R- Oh yes.
(300)
Did your mother ever do any work in the house to earn a bit of money like taking sewing in or anything?
R- No, she used to look after a youngster now and again.
What, a bit of child minding?
R- When his mother went to work me mother would happen go into the house, you know. She'd go to work at may be seven o'clock and me mother used to go in about quarter to eight and get him up and fetch him into our house and make his breakfast and off to school.
That's it, off to school. Aye.
R- And then at four o'clock when school loosed he’d come to our house while half past five while his mother came home.
Yes. And of course it were fairly common weren’t it Fred in those days for children to go to school a lot earlier than they go now. [at a younger age]
R- Oh yes.
For that reason, for parents that were working in mill.
R- Aye and at one time they [weavers] started at seven [usually 06:30] didn't they and then they finished at half past eight, half an hour for breakfast. Started again at nine and some parents, if they were handy, they used to run home and get their children up and wash 'em and feed 'em and off to school and then…
(20 mins)
Back into the mill.
R- They’d no time to get any breakfast themselves.
Aye,
R- But I mean it were only about a shilling a week like. Doing all that. Going and getting 'em up. Sommat like that.
Yes, that's it. Well it were only about half a crown [2/6d.] for child minding for a week weren’t it.
R- Yes, that were it aye.
That seems to have been the usual rate you know. I mean really I should be asking you but I mean we've got that far on now that you know. It seems to have been about the usual rate that, half a crown a week for child minding. Can you remember any other women in the neighbourhood doing anything like taking in washing or sewing?
R- Oh yes, aye. Aye there were one women up street she used to take sewing in. I forget her name now but she used to, you know, make shirts and plain sewing, nowt fancy.
That's it aye.
R- Biggest part of 'em, same as me mother, she’d a sewing machine and when we were youngsters she used to make us suits and all that. It were later on afore we ever got a suit from shops.
Aye, what sort of a machine were it, can you remember?
R- It were an old German one. It weren’t a fancy machine, it were just a plain sewing machine.
Aye, Frister & Rossman?
R- I couldn't remember. No.
No. And that house on Lincoln Road.
R- Lincoln Road.
Is it still standing?
R- Oh yes, aye.
What number were it?
R- We lived in twenty one that were like a four roomed house.
Yes.
R- Oh yes they’re still standing. They've been modernised and they’re like owt else now, two up and two down. They’re worth more than big ‘uns.
Yes, aye.
R- Oh they’re selling for £5,000 now.
Make your dad laugh wouldn't it.
R- He’d have a fit, he would.
Reight, favourite subject with you Fred now, food.
R- [Fred laughs] Food.
Aye food, ‘cause I know you like your food. That’s why you’re so healthy. Now, what did your mother cook on. Well, I know that questions on here, but I mean, in the early days she were cooking on the range weren’t she.
R- On the fire. She cooked on the range until she got a gas oven.
That's it. That would be on the top bar for pans.
R- Yes.
And in the oven.
R- And oven.
Aye.
R- Aye you put, there were a thing fell down you know, over the top of the fire.
That's it. [This was a cast iron grate hinged at the back or the side of the fire which could be folded down for cooking. There was often two round grates which were pivoted on the front bar, these could be swivelled round so they were over the fire. My grandmother used to put pans straight on top of the fire.]
R- And they used to put the frying pan on there.
Tell me sommat. Something that's struck me, there was a back boiler wasn't there?
R- Yes.
And there was a side boiler as well was there?
R- Yes.
So did the side boiler ever get used?
R - Well mostly for fire wood.
That’s it Aye.
R - To keep it dry.
Yes that’s it. It just struck me, you know, with having a modern boiler, which it was then, a back boiler were a fairly modern thing to have then.
R- Aye. Because you’d have to fetch a bucket out of what we called the kitchen and teem it into the boiler.
Yes.
R- So we never bothered with that with water.
And when did she first get a gas stove? Can you think? When can you first remember a gas stove?
R- Oh I’d be about eight happen. It were a big clumsy second hand thing what me father had bought.
So that's cast iron.
R- Cast iron, it weighed a ton, took two of ‘em to fetch it.
How did Ernie describe it, wait a minute, Ernie described it, they had one just the same. Bow legs on it, I could just see the thing you mean. He said “It stood there in the corner with its bow legs and it looked as if it would take any amount of punishment.”
(400)
R - Aye, it did, aye.
That would be about it wouldn’t it.
R- Oh aye they were a solid job, I mean but when a woman had baked in a side oven all her life up to then, they took a bit of getting used to did a gas oven.
Yes.
R- But eventually she got used to it and then I think we got the oven door done up. You know, they used to blister with the heat and I think we got it done up and it were like a lovely range then because we gave up using it and used the gas oven.
That's it aye. And them old ranges, every so often you had to take all the little doors off and brush all the flue's out on ‘em didn’t you.
R- Oh that's it aye.
Who did that, did your mother do that?
R - Me mother aye. Aye me mother did that before she started baking.
Aye. Did she do that each week before she started?
R- Yes. Every week they were done.
Brush all the flue’s out aye. Do you know I can remember me grandma doing that.
(25 mins)
R- Aye.
There’s no question about that on here. I’ll have to speak to Elizabeth! And did she make her own bread?
R- Yes.
Always?
R- Always.
Yes.
R- Aye and sad cakes.
How much did she make at once?
R- Well I don’t know, she made enough to last all week anyway.
Yes, that's that I mean, did she like have one good do of baking for a week.
R- One good baking day.
You said, that were Thursday weren’t it.
R- Yes.
Thursday were baking day, aye.
R- They used to be left out for so long and then put into th’old stone earthenware bread mug. Aye. And they used to keep while, you know, it would keep a week.
Where were the bread mug, in the kitchen?
R- Pantry.
Pantry.
R- We had a pantry.
That Would be a stone floor an all.
R- Yes.
Stone shelf?
R - Yes.
Aye. Did she bake cakes, you know, sweet cakes.
R- Yes.
What sort?
R- Oh sometimes they were them there, I never did used to like them but me father and mother did. Caraway seeds in.
Seed cake aye.
R- Eh, I could never stick them.
Aye.
R- She’d make some of them for herself and me father and she'd make me brother and me just ordinary happen. A few currants in sometimes and sometimes just plain ‘uns.
Aye. Fruit loaf?
R- Fruit, and what is it, Eccles Cakes, scones. Oh it were a real baking. It were nearly a crime to buy owt like that when you were at home, that were your job when you wore stopping at home.
It were thought so weren’t it. Bought cakes were…
(450)
R- Oh aye.
It was an indictment...
R- Oh yes.
Bought cakes aye. Did she bake pies?
R- Yes.
Fruit?
R- Tatie pies in the oven you know, and just what...meat and potato pies. But when we were having a meat and potato pie she allus used to have to make a small one for me brother. He didn't want any meat in.
Aye?
R - He were a vegetarian reight from being a child, he didn't like meat. And she allus made him one, potatoes and onions in a little dish wi’ a crust on. On his own.
Aye.
R- And then he’d only eat tongue, that were the only meat he’d eat. You know, when we were having us dinner at Sunday he’d have roasted potatoes from round the meat, mashed potatoes and gravy but no meat. Sunday tea time if were having cold meat he’d have some sardines, aye.
Aye.
R- But he were called up into the last war like and when he come back [laughs] he’d eat owt. Aye. He were no vegetarian then.
There were no vegetarians in the army! Did she make jam?
R- Yes aye, and I can remember one time, jam pan [on the fire]. “I’ll just give it another few minutes.” She'd been stirring it and testing it. I’ll just give it another few minutes and then pop!, soot. A soot fall. All her strawberry jam spoiled. It were a tragedy were that.
Aye it would be. What were that, a brass jam pan?
R- What wi’, you know, the price of strawberries and sugar, it set her back a long way did that.
It would, it would, that would be a disaster.
R- Aye.
How about pickles?
R- Aye they used to make pickled cabbage mostly, red cabbage.
Did you dad grow cabbage?
R- Yes. And onions, you know, sliced up in vinegar. We used to get a lot of them to cold meat.
Aye. How about little onions, shallots, did you used to pickle them.
R- Yes, aye.
Who topped and tailed them?
R- Me mother did all that.
Oh, she did it! Aye, your dad were bringing you up the reight way, he didn't have you, [Stanley laughs] I can see it.
R- Although I will say this, we used to watch me mother a lot, it stood us in good stead. I could have done it.
(500)
Yes.
R- After we got older we could do it.
Yes. Did she ever make any wine or beer? Home made wine?
R- Aye she used to make home made stout.
Stout?
R- Aye. But she never made any wine or beer as we know it today.
No.
R- It were some kind of stout. It were very lively stuff and you'd only to have a drop and I think meself she'd happen make it more for a medicine for us you know. Not as we ailed owt, but for a bit of kick into you.
Yes.
R- Oatmeal stout it were.
Well you see, the next question on here is did she make her own medicines, and if so, what kind. Well I mean that's…
R - That were one of 'em.
I mean it's like making egg nog, you don't make that to drink, you know.
(30 mins)
Like you make that for a medicine don't you. I used to make that when I were down at the shop. Did she make anything else like, you know as a medicine?
R- No, me father used to do that. Boil liquorice and aniseed., aniseed it were. A drop of aniseed in.
Aye.
R- Linseed, liquorice and a drop or two of aniseed drops in. He used to warm it up on the fire and mix it all up and then he used to strain it into a bottle and that were cough mixture.
Yes and good stuff an all.
R- Good stuff an all aye. And then he used to chuck the linseed ower to the hens at bottom of street, he didn't waste it, he used to chuck it to the hens. They used to gobble it up.
Aye. It wouldn't be bad taking either that.
R- No.
Linseed, aniseed and liquorice, it would be alright that. What did you usually have for breakfast during the week.
R- During the week. Porridge to start wi’ and then happen a couple of slices of toast.
Porridge. What were it, were it salt on it or..
R- Sometimes oatmeal and sometimes Quaker Oats.
Yes, but did you put salt on it or did you…
R- No, milk...
Milk.
R- Milk and sugar.
Oh you were doing well. Scotsmen would say you were ruining it you know.
(550)
R- Aye. Then, happen at Saturday, me brother wouldn't eat eggs, but me father would happen have a boiled egg and he’d knock the top off and he’d give me the top. He’d knock a big top off it like and I’d get that. I'd done well, I thought it's a good job me brother doesn’t like 'em.
Aye or else your dad would....
R- Aye, 'cause he only had one every fortnight.
Aye. And what did you have for Sunday dinner?
R- Oh It were allus a real dinner, mostly sirloin and potatoes done round the sirloin, you know, in a meat dish. Yorkshire pudding. Finish off with rice pudding. There was no such thing as finishing off wi’ a cup of tea or biscuits or owt of that. You'd finished when you'd had that. And you'd had enough, you didn't want anymore when you’d had that.
Yes.
R- And then at tea as I say, there were happen cold meat and stewed prunes and custard.
How about dinners during the week? Well we’ve heard about Monday dinners haven’t we. It could be resurrections.
R - Aye, that were resurrections mostly.
Washing day aye.
R – Aye. We might have had a bit of fried bacon and some fatty cakes at Tuesday. And then at Wednesday it would be stewing meat. Then at Thursday, sometimes it were a bit of steak. Then at Friday it were sausage. It were fairly consistent all the time,
Aye. Any particular sort of sausage?
R- Eh, it didn't matter whether they were pork or beef, thick uns or thin uns. They were all alike.
Aye, of course sausages were sausage in them days weren’t they.
R- Aye they were. They were a meal weren’t they.
Aye, aye they were that alright.
R- And teemed the fat what came out of 'em on to your potatoes. You know, mashed potatoes and teemed fat on 'em.
(600)
Have you noticed nowadays you've to put fat in with sausages?
R - Aye.
It doesn’t come out of 'em.
R- No.
No. There’s something funny somewhere about...
R- I mean, the skin's is that thick you can’t get through 'em.
There’s something funny about sausages nowadays Fred I think. I can tell you a little tale about that. You remember I used to have that shop at Sough, you know, next to the mill there, next to Sough Mill.
R- Did you?
Aye. And I once sold a woman some sausages one day and she come back a couple of days later. She said “Them sausages you sold me t’other day". I said “Did you like 'em'?” She said the sausage were alright but by God the skins were tough!” I said “Hold on a minute, which sort did you get?” And she got these frozen sausages, I said “You daft beggar! They were covered with plastic! You're supposed to take that off. You didn't eat it did you?” She says “Aye. We ate them, I ate most of mine. I don't know what Jim did with his!”
[Laughter from Fred]
Aye. Complaining about the skin being tough, they were covered with plastic, she'd eaten the lot. Anyway, yes, what did you usually have for tea during week? I don't mean Saturday or Sunday.
R- Well it were mostly treacle butties and jam butties.
Aye.
(35 mins)
R- At tea time. There were nowt special prepared.
And Saturday and Sunday ‘ud happen be a bit better do.
R- Oh yes aye, you got a better do then. That were weekend. But through the week, as I say, it were mostly that. Unless it were new potato time you know. Digging potatoes up off the garden, happen have some new potatoes with some butter on. It were allus butter when they could get it, it were butter.
Aye.
R- She didn't use margarine.
Aye. That’s one of the things later on actually, about margarine. Anyway, we'll get round to that. Did you have supper before bed time.
R- If we did it were pobs.
(650)
Aye. Well, I know what pobs are but you'd better tell us what pobs are because other people might not know.
R- Well it were crusts of bread broken up and scalded with the water squeezed off, sugar put on and some warm milk.
That's it.
R- You had a pot full of them to go to bed off. And they didn't do you any harm.
That's it, do you know I still like ‘em. I still like bread pobs.
R- Aye.
I do. I’ll tell you how I like them, me mother used to do them. She used to toast ‘em.
And then put ‘em in milk and they make the milk taste a bit nutty you know, when they’re toasted.
R- That's it, aye.
Aye. I still like ‘em toasted, but I were greedy, I used to butter 'em before I put ‘em in.
R- Aye. Well, if there were any bread left at tea time and it, you know.
Yes wi’ t’butter on...
R- Butter on. It used to lie on top of the milk aye.
That's it aye. I’ll tell you what, it doesn't do you any harm. I still like it. I do. I don't know.. I’ll tell you when they used to give me bread pobs, if I'd been poorly you know. If there were owt wrong with me.
R- Oh yes aye. Build you up a bit.
Aye, that were it aye. And pepper on an all. I used to put pepper on. Of course I've always been a bit of a bugger, I put sugar on potato pie! I’ll tell you what Scotsmen do, I’ve seen 'em many a time. Scotsmen will get a bowl of soup, and what you really should do is sprinkle oatmeal in it, but if they were getting a bowl of soup in a cafe or anywhere, they'll have a couple of digestive biscuits with it and break them up into it and then a bit of sugar on an all and mix it all together. And I’ll tell you something about it, soup with sugar in like that, by God it can warm you up. It can get you a sweat on Fred, it can.
R- I love soup.
Oh aye. Anyway I shouldn't be telling you about that because we're trying to find out about you. Well you've already said that you had an allotment haven't you. That your dad had an allotment.
(700)
R- Yes.
And what sort of stuff did he grow on there?
R- Well it were mostly sommat to eat, happen just a few flowers to just set it off a bit but potatoes, cabbages cauliflowers, Brussels, beetroot, all the popular things and he were fairly successful wi’ it an all. He spent a lot of time on it. Potatoes, he used to get 'em up and fetch 'em home and they used to last us a long while. We’d have one of them old apple barrels, he used to put so many potatoes in and then scatter some flower of sulphur on them.
Aye.
R- And then some more and some more flower of sulphur in. He said it kept 'em, they didn't go foisty. [fusty, mouldy]
No I can believe that.
R- They lasted us a long while.
You’d say he were a good gardener then your dad.
R- Oh yes, aye he were extra good.
Aye, did they have a horticultural show then in Earby?
R - Yes.
Did he have a do at them?
R- He used to do a lot of winning.
Aye that's it. Had he a favourite for competitions.
R- Onions. Onions, them were his favourite.
Aye.
R- He could grow onions, and I don't know why. I don't know owt about gardening to mean owt but that's my favourite. There's nobody grows a better bed of onions, just ordinary, as what I do.
Aye.
(750)
R- I don't make a fuss of ‘em like somebody what's showing them and all that. You know, make a special do of a few of 'em and like that, but I allus have a good do. But last year sommat went wrong with them and they nearly all split and they went mildewed inside.
Aye. There were a lot of bad onions last year.
R- 150, I had 150 and I don't think I got 40 out of all lot.
Aye. No, I remember, ‘cause I'm no gardener. I think actually I might get round to gardening later in life. I can see the point in gardening. Did you eat all the stuff that come off the allotment, or did you sell any of it?
R- Oh he used to sell a lot of pea swads. [Pea pods]
Aye.
R- Aye and lettuce and he used to give part away to folk you know, what weren’t happen in reight good circumstances.
That's it aye.
(40 mins)
R- Give 'em a bucket full of pea swads and half a bucket full of potatoes and they were reight then for a good meal.
Aye, yes.
R- Beetroot, I never used to touch beetroot and carrots then. And now I love ‘em.
Aye.
R- Aye. It were funny, I wouldn't eat beetroot.
It's been a bad year for carrots this year an all. I don't think I've had a good carrot this year.
R- No.
No. And last year I thought it were a good un for carrots, by God there were some nice carrots. I’m talking about carrots you buy like, you know. But this year I don't think I've had one good one. And Vera can cook vegetables you know, she just chucks 'em in, warms 'em up and pulls 'em out and that's how they want to be isn't it.
R- Aye.
They don't want boiling for three hours. Anyway, did you have any hens or anything like that. Goats or…?
R- We once had about three hens in the back yard. I think it were when 14/18 war were on but I think somebody must have said, you know, one or two of 'em had 'em in the back yard. Somebody must have said sommat and we had to clear 'em out, they hadn't to keep them.
No. Public health.
(800)
R- Probably aye. But I had a laughable do with Mr. Hartley what were the manufacturer. He had a garden aside of us and they lived in a big house, nearly aside of this allotment and he had some hens in a pen at the end of his house. And he were going on his holidays one time so he says “I have a job for thee.” He said “Look after my hens next week and you can have all eggs you get and sell 'em to your mother, tha’ll be well off.” So, a good do were this, he only had about ten hens and there were six eggs first day, happen five next and back to six. Six days I were taking these eggs home, I weren’t selling them to me mother. Me mother were getting them and then when he came back, “Well how many eggs?” I'd to put it down on a piece of paper. “My, tha’s had a good do hasn't ta! Tha’ll have made a bit of money?” I says “No, I didn’t, I gave me mother ‘em.” He said “Tha’rt a good lad.” Well time comes round again, he says “I’m going on me holidays, I want you to look after the hens, same terms.” Oh I were rubbing me hands, yes. When I went after school at four o'clock. He’d gone at Friday and I went to 'em. School loosed at four o'clock, there's no eggs. I thought, oh well he must not have gone while about dinner time and he's picked 'em up. Morning following I goes, no eggs. I ran home from school at dinner time and had a look, no. I went to Sunday School, that were it. When Sunday School loosed I dashed up, no eggs. No eggs at night. He come back off his holidays. He says “Hasta been marking t’paper?” I says
(855)
“There hasn't been any eggs.” “Wasn't there? That's funny isn't it? Been a poor do hasn't it? Tha’rt sure there's been none?” I says “No.” He says “I’m going to learn thee sommat. They don't lay when they’re in moult!” [Fred laughs] He give me a tanner. He says “I'll give thee a tanner.” I got a tanner off him.
(laughter from Stanley)
R- But as I got older like I could see the joke.
Yes.
R- Probably he’d tell me father about it and some of the other fellows at work and they'd had a reight...
Would that be Joe Hartley’s father?
R- Aye, Joe Hartley, that's it.
Is he still going Joe?
R- No. No he died not so long since.
Is that right.
R- Yes, think they found him dead.
I remember we once went to a do at the Albion Club [Conservative Club]and there were me and Eddie Lancaster.
R- I'll put the light on Stanley.
No you’re reight, you don't need to bother about light no because this tape’s nearly finished. I’m just trying to think, we were stood in this queue, that's it, and Joe Hartley walked to the front. Because he were a big man at the Con. Club like.
R- Oh he were.
Aye. He walked to the front of the queue and as he's walking up to the front of queue somebody said something and Eddie Lancaster chimed in and said sommat about, you know, bloody hell, Joe queue jumping. And he turned round did Joe Hartley, he said “Lancaster!”
(900)
(45 mins)
He said “I heard that” and then Eddie says “Hartley, there’s handle to my name! Use it!” I've never forgotten that.
R- Aye...
Aye he says “Lancaster!” Aye, going back to th’old days you know. Well that weren’t the old Hartley, that were Joe. Where did he have his looms, Hartley’s?
R - They were on New Road.
When you say...
R- Where Johnson's are now. '
Not Brook Shed.
R- Yes, Brook Shed.
Brook Shed, aye.
R- Yes. There were his brother had the end place, you know, where the 200 loom shop were, reight at far end. His brother had that, Thomas Henry Hartley. And then there were, B&W. Hartley, that were Bracewell and William, two brothers.
Aye.
R- And he paid Willie out and then Bracewell were there and Thomas Henry next to him.
Aye.
R - They were decent folk you know. They weren’t stuck up or owt like that.
Yes. Oh now it were just one do that Eddie had that night.
R- Oh but Joe. Oh he were a bugger were Joe. I've no time for him.
(950)
Well he always seemed a bit that way but he spent a bit too much time in pubs for my liking.
R- He once did it on me. He seemed to take a fancy to me, old Bracewell, even after me father left. Me father left there and went to the Albion. He still took a fancy to me did Bracewell and they’d been moving a lot of looms, getting some thirty six's made into forty five's and there were a lot of work going on at Saturday. And he used to let me work at Saturday morning and don’t tell anybody th’art working he used to say, but work till twelve o'clock. Well, it were about a shilling an hour and they paid from half past ten at Saturday morning. Then one day he says, “Does ta think thee father will let thee come back?” I says “Oh I dare say.” Well we worked till about three o'clock and then it were dark. Well it were a good do were that and I didn't take it meself like you know, it went on to the wage I give me mother.
Yes.
R- And I got a penny in the shilling spending money. And then at Christmas all the other tacklers got fifty cigarettes apiece....
Yes.
(1000)
R- For this extra work they'd done. And Edward Duxbury, he were one of tacklers he says “Hasta getten thee fags Fred?” I says “I don't smoke.” He said “Did he offer you them?” I says “Who?” He said “Did Joe fetch thee any?” I said “No” He says “I know there were fifty fags for all t’lot on us.” You know, fifty apiece.
Aye.
R- He says “He'll have getten 'em his self will Joe.” So I never got any fags and he says “I’ll have a do with Bracewell.” I says “Oh no don't. He’s all right is Bracewell.” I weren’t bothered about fags as long as I were getting a bob now and again.
No but it's funny, you don't forget them things do you.
R- No you don't forget, they stick in your mind.
No.
SCG/09 April 2003
6,967 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/03
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 28TH OF SEPTEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Right Fred, first thing this week, I've a list of foods here.
R - Aye.
You know, different sorts of food and I’ll just give you one and just tell me whether you had 'em, you know, everyday or every week, once a month or how often you had 'em.
R – Yes..
Let’s see what the job is. Bananas?
R- Oh only occasionally.
You did see bananas though?
R- Yes aye, occasionally.
Yes aye, what were they, Fyffe’s?
R- Canary's.
Canary's aye.
R- Little ones, Canary's.
Aye that's it aye. You used to be able to get them didn’t you, I remember them little sweet ones.
R- Aye they were, aye.
Aye. Rabbit?
R - Well there were rabbit...me father used to do a lot of shooting and rabbiting, there were plenty of rabbits came in the house but I were never carried away with 'em.
Aye.
R - I didn't mind potatoes and gravy but I weren’t carried away with rabbit although me father and mother used to have ‘em like. They’d be made into a rabbit pie.
Yes. When you say you went shooting Fred, were that 12 bore or muzzle loader or what?
R- 12 bore, 12 bore.
Aye, it were a cartridge?
R- Cartridge gun.
Yes, that's it. That would be a hammer gun would it.
R- No, it wore hammerless.
Were it?
R- Aye It wore a grand gun...
It would be a good gun that then.
R- It, you know in them days it were his pride and joy, aye.
Aye it would be if it were hammerless. I mean like just let's get what dates we’re talking about. You were born in 19…
R- 1908.
1908, so this is just after the first world war, isn't it. You'd be happen eight or ten years old.
R- Oh yes but he had this gun long afore then.
Yes.
R- He might have had it before I were born for owt I know.
Did your dad go to the war?
R- No he were exempt you know ‘cause there were two tacklers called up and it only left him then.
That’s it, you said so.
R - There were only three fellas.
You said so, that's it, yes.
R - Aye.
Fried food Fred?
R- Oh we didn't do so bad, me mother used to [fry often] she were a good un at frying chops. She used to fry chops in the frying pan. Them were good and happen sometimes she’d cook ‘em in the oven, like them weren’t fried, but we used to get a bit of fried bacon and ham or fried chops occasionally.
Aye. One thing that always strikes me Fred, nowadays I mean frying pan's a dirty word nearly isn't it. Everybody’s frightened about their heart and what not.
(50)
R- Aye they are.
And when you come to think, the number of people that lived out of the frying pan at one time.
R- They did, you could make some good do’s out of the frying pan couldn't they.
Aye. Well you think about it, they tell you that eggs are full of cholesterol and that's bad for your heart.
R- Aye.
Animal fat in the frying pan and what not. You think of the number of blokes that were reared on home fed bacon, which were nearly all fat.
R – Aye.
Eggs
R- That's it.
Chips. .
R - Aye they were the main diets weren’t they.
Aye.
R- Well, I still enjoy 'em.
Aye, so do I Fred, I don’t take any notice of what they say is bad for me.
R- No.
How about fish?
R- Oh, we used to get that, mostly cod fish and kippers at Monday occasionally or haddock, finny haddock you know.
[ ‘Finny haddock’ is the local name for Finnon Haddock, which is boned, lightly salted and smoked haddock. This was originally produced at a small village called Findon near Aberdeen in Scotland but over the years has been corrupted to ‘Finnon’]
Aye. Where did your mother get her fish from?
R- Well there’d be two fish shops In Earby then.
Which were they?
R- Well there were one on Water Street and there were the Co-op. They were in a big way were the Co-op, they had a big green grocery and fish department.
Aye. Was there anybody in Earby that came round with fish on a cart?
R- Yes. A fella called Tom Nichol [Jim Pollard mentioned the same bloke but said he was called Laurie Nichol.] but that were after the 14/18 war. He had a leg off and he had had this little shop in Water Street an all but there were plenty of that sort of thing in Earby. Especially at Monday, there were cockles and mussels and kippers, that were Monday tea for a lot of folk. I never liked cockles and I never liked mussels. But I could eat a kipper.
(5 mins)
Yes and like in them days fish would come in on the train wouldn’t it.
R- It came in on the train yes.
Aye.
R- What they called the fish train and it came from Fleetwood and it were like you know, there’d be half on it wi’ nowt only fish boxes in it. It ud be stopping at every station. Earby would be about one of the last places it stopped at.
Yes and that ud be fresh fish wouldn't it.
R - That were fresh fish, yes.
Aye.
R - You used to see these fishmongers going up to the station with their trucks and getting fish and running down with it to get it into their shops.
That’s it aye. I can remember that meself and it's always struck me, would you agree with me that that's one of the things that's suffered in the food line is fish.
R- Yes, fresh fish.
Aye, because at one time, if you think on, it would be on the train and they could have fish in Barlick. a couple of hours after it had left Fleetwood.
R- That's it. Aye it weren’t long were it and then they used to shape there selves didn't they, fishmongers, they run back with it.
Oh yes, aye. Yes, let's put it this way, it were quite possible for fish to be landed on the fish dock at Fleetwood and be on the tea table in Earby at tea time the same day.
R- Oh yes, quite, yes.
Quite easy. Cheese?
R- Aye we did very well wi’ cheese. That were nearly always on the table on Sunday.
(100)
Mm ... What sort of cheese did you generally have Fred?
R- Well Lancashire or Wensleydale.
Aye that’s it.
R- We didn't bother wi’ owt else. There were none of that Gorgonzola...
No that's it.
R - Nobody fancied that.
It ud be local cheese like wouldn't it. It ud be, when I say local, I mean in them days it ud be cheese with mould on the crust.
R- Yes.
Aye, I got some the other day funnily enough, a bit of farm Cheddar.
R- Aye, and it were real cheese weren’t it, made in farm houses. It weren’t like it is now.
That's it. Oh nowadays if it's got mould on it you know it's bad.
R- Aye it is, aye there's no mould on now, just a bit of hard crust.
Aye, that's it aye. Cow heel?
R- Yes, we used to have cow heel occasionally and if me mother made any stew it allus had cow heel in.
Aye, steak and heel pie.
R- Aye.
I used to think there were eels in it you know, in cow heels, I used to think it were eels.
R- Eels, aye.
Tripe?
R - Yes we got tripe.
How did your mother cook it? Did you have it cold or did you have it cooked?
R- Sometimes in winter time we had tripe and onions and other times we had you know, vinegar on, pepper, salt and vinegar.
Aye, a bit of honeycomb.
R- Honeycomb and fill all the holes up wi’ vinegar. [Fred laughs]
That’s it aye! [Stanley laughs]
R- Or tried to do.
Aye that's it. Aye and your mother would tell you it were going to thin your blood down.
R- Aye, “That’s enough!”
That's it aye. That's something, I don't know if it were you I said it to but they always seemed to have this idea that vinegar and them sulphur tablets would thin your blood down.
R - That's it aye.
I don't know how much truth there is in it but they were frightened of thinning your blood weren’t they. Except when you had heat spots and then they used to give you sulphur tablets to clean your blood.
R- Oh they were, sulphur aye. Aye clean you out.
Trotters?
R- No. It were very seldom we had trotters, very seldom. No really, there were too much bone in ‘em.
Aye, well I’m not reight suited with trotters.
R- There weren’t enough meat on 'em.
Black pudding?
R- Yes, black puddings occasionally.
Aye. How did you have them, fried or boiled?
R- Boiled, boiled.
Aye. Eggs?
R- Aye. As we got a bit older we didn't do so bad for eggs but when I were reight young, me brother wouldn't eat eggs. So I used to get the top off me father’s. Eh, I’d think I'd done very well. Then like as we got a bit older and happen a bit better off we could have a whole one.
Aye. Tomatoes?
R- No we didn't have a lot of tomatoes. Me father didn't believe in 'em, he said they give you appendicitis. [Fred laughs]
Aye. I’ve heard that before.
R- Seeds.
Wi’ the seeds, aye.
R- Aye, and I can remember if we did get any, me mother allus had to dip 'em in hot water and peel them. You hadn't even to eat the skin off 'em.
(150)
(10 mins).
Aye.
R- If you just dip ‘em in boiling water it comes off easy enough.
That's what they used to tell me you know. When I eat apples I allus eat the cores and they allus used to say “You'll have appendicitis.”
R - Aye.
It were the only way I could get a bit of apple in the old days.
R - Were the core.
Were to follow somebody round eating an apple and ask 'em for their stump. Me and Ernie had a laugh about that many a time.
R- Aye.
Grapefruit?
R- No, them were unheard of.
Aye. Sheep's head?
R- No.
No. Did your mother ever buy any tinned food?
R- Very, very seldom. She’d happen have a tin of apricot's in but other than that they were all dried apricots what she used. You know, you used to soak 'em and swell 'em up, didn't they.
That's it.
R- She'd happen have a tin or two of apricot's just on spec. Chance somebody came or a special event but, oh happen a few tins of sardines, me brother liked sardines.
How about salmon Fred?
R- Salmon that were, aye. But she never really stocked 'em. If we were going to have one at Sunday she'd get it on order at Monday.
Of course, in them days a tin of salmon would be a fair item wouldn't it?
R- It were, it were a popular Sunday tea at a lot of houses.
Can you ever remember having a tin that were off?
R - No, no.
No. Did you drink tea?
R - Tea?
Tea?
R- Yes we drank tea. Me mother allus drunk coffee.
Aye. How about cocoa.
R- Yes there were allus cocoa there if you fancied cocoa instead of tea you could have cocoa.
Why did your mother have coffee?
R- I don't know.
Just ‘cause she liked it?
R- She used to have coffee reight up to the finish.
Aye.
R- Aye.
What sort were it?
R- Well that Stomike. [A very good ground coffee in airtight tins made in Burnley]
That's it.
R- Stomike or they used to grind some their self did shop-keeper, down at the provision shop.
Aye that's it.
R- They used to grind it their self and it used to smell lovely.
Aye, aye.
R- Oh aye she were a real coffee woman. In fact, as we got older like, we bought her a percolator so she could percolate it. Aye, she loved it.
Aye grand. What did you usually have for Christmas dinner Fred?
R- Pork, that were the main do. I can only once remember having a goose and I think it were a waste of time really, having it. Me brother didn't like it and I didn’t like it, so it were left like for me father and mother to eat it up. That were one time. There
(200)
weren’t such things as turkey's in them days for ordinary working folk were there. But sometimes they might go out and he’d happen get a pheasant or sommat like that or a partridge, make a special job on it.
Aye.
R- But I should say eight times out of ten it were pork.
Aye, plenty of crackling on?
R- Aye. But you didn't get pork all year round in them days, it were like a winter’s meat weren’t it.
Aye, that's it aye, yes.
R- Ordinary butcher didn't sell pork, only at Christmas.
Aye.
R- It were left to pork butchers to sell.
Yes, because at one time there were like butchers...well there were three kinds of butchers really, weren’t there. There were the ordinary butcher, pork butcher and frozen meat shop.
R- That's it aye.
And if you were going to the frozen meat shop they reckoned you were hard up didn't they.
R- Aye and they all get it now don't they.
Aye. Were there a frozen meat shop in Barlick ... in Earby?
R- Before my time. I've heard ‘em talk about it.
Aye.
R- Where the Central Club is now.
Oh yes.
R- There were a frozen meat shop there. But that were before my time, I’m going off hearsay.
What would you say were your favourite food when you were a child Fred?
R- Favourite food?
Aye.
R- Roast beef at week-end or a little bit of steak at Thursday's.
Aye.
R- Aye. I allus looked forward to me Thursday dinner and me Sunday dinner.
Aye.
R- Cause it were nearly allus crop or sirloin. You know, I like a good cut of meat wi’ plenty of fat on.
Well you've said sommat there haven't you. Nowadays if a piece of meat has plenty of fat on they can’t sell it.
R- No they can’t, they cut it off don't they.
(15 mins)
But I mean, meat's nothing without fat
R- No.
Well, I don't think so. I don't actually like fat but I think a piece of meat that has a bit of fat wi’ it, that's been roasted wi’ a lump of fat, taste's a lot better.
R- A lot better, that’s why, you know, you can get a big lump of beef. And when you go into these restaurants, a proper restaurant, they cook a big lump don't they, wi’ all the fat on and it's good is that lean isn't it.
Good stuff aye. And what would you have to eat when the family were a bit hard up. You know, if it were a bad week or somebody were poorly.
R- Well me mother allus saved the dripping off meat. We used to get dripping cakes, especially in winter, good for you, keep you warm they used to say.
Salt and pepper on aye.
R- Aye. Salt and pepper on.
Aye. I still like bread and dripping meself.
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R It were all home made bread. I don't think me mother ever bought a loaf until she got very old.
When you come to think about it though, a good big doorstep of home made bread covered wi’ dripping wi’ some salt and pepper on, you could do a lot worse couldn't you.
R- Oh you could, aye.
Aye.
R- Cause it were better bread in them days than what you get today. Definitely.
Yes.
R- And if you happen went to somebody's house and they made you what we call a jam butty with their bread. You used to enjoy it.
Aye.
R- You know. There were allus just a little bit of difference in everybody’s baking.
That's it, aye. And a bit of crust on.
R- Aye, and you used to get your own like regular and when you got somebody else’s, eh how good this bread is. And if somebody come to your house it were the same.
Yes.
R - By gum it's good is this bread...
Yes, aye a change.
R - A change isn't it.
Yes. Did your father come home for all his meals?
R- Bar breakfast time when I used to take it.
What did you generally take him Fred?
R - Well many a time it were bacon and egg between two plates and I used to have to run down with it as fast as I could.
Aye and when you took his food in, where were he generally. Your dad, what was your dad doing?
R- A tackler.
Tackler. So where would he have it? In the store room?
R- No. They had a bit of a form in the warehouse. They used to sit there and have it.
Did your dad always have same food as the rest of you, or did he sometimes have something different? You know, something special.
R- No. We were all treated alike.
Aye. Can you ever remember your mother going short to make sure you had enough?
R- Not to me knowing Stanley. She might have done unknown to us but..
Yes.
R- Not to us knowing. Like we were never well off and never really poor, it were just in between.
Yes.
R- ‘Cause he were a very careful sort were me father. He didn't throw owt away.
Yes, and who usually did the shopping Fred?
R- Me mother, bit what they used to do. ‘Cause they used to get the main order from the grocers. There weren't a lot of owt else to get.
And how often would you say she went shopping. I mean obviously she'd get the big order once a week wouldn't she.
R- That’s it, aye.
Yes.
R- Well if she run short of a bit of owt she’d go for meat at Friday. That were ... happen go down at Thursday for a little bit of steak and then meat at Friday for weekend.
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(20 mins.)
When you think about it, in those days Fred, there were no fridges. Did you, you know, can you remember food ever going off?
R- I can only remember a bit of meat going off once and it were a very warm summer and a lot of bluebottle's about. Although we had one of them covers like perforated metal. But it went off did the meat. A bluebottle must have got to it.
Aye.
R- It were only a bit, it were sommat and nowt but it were there.
Yes, aye.
R- That like were the only time I can remember.
And where did your mother get her meat?
R- At her brothers. They'd been in the butcher’s business, me mother were £etched up in the butchering business. Then her brother took it over when the father died.
Aye. Oh aye, I remember you telling me. I’ve heard you say about 'em taking beasts in and slaughtering 'em at the shop.
R- Aye.
Aye, that's it. Aye.
R- Well she allus shopped there.
I were talking to a fella the other night and his dad used to slaughter goats in the bath. [Stanley and Fred laugh]
R- Aye, oh aye!
A man of quality, he used to rear goats and he used to take 'em upstairs and slaughter 'em in the bath, he said it were the best place to do it.
R- Aye, get shut of the blood wouldn't it.
Aye, his wife must have been a long suffering woman. He had a gas engine in the front room an all! Eh. Times were hard. Anyway that's nothing to do with this. Was there a market in Earby?
R- They've kept having bits and bats but never one regular.
Yes. When there’s been one, where has it been Fred?
R- Where the bus station is now.
Aye, next to the fire station, well next to what's the fire station now.
R- What they call, well, they called it the fair ground.
Aye. Where were the fire station in those days?
R- Aside of Vokes, at the back of the butcher’s shop in Water street.
And how did you get to it, from the front or down…
R- On end of ... Vokes Mill where Vokes is now. [Vokes was in Victoria Mill]
Yes.
R- You went on to the end of there, and there were a big building and it were attached to the mill and attached to these shops on Water Street. A little bit of a scratty do.
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Like it ud be down the side of where young Tooley's barber's shop used to be, at that end, aye.
R- That's it aye, it were at the back of there.
That's it aye. Young Tooley, I've just mentioned his name, you'd know young Tooley well wouldn't you?
[‘Young Tooley’ was the barber at the end of Water Street in the small shops directly opposite the Conservative Club. He was noted as being the biggest liar in Earby.]
R- Aye he were a real character.
Aye, I mean, I remember when I lived in Earby they always used to say if you went into Earby and asked for biggest liar in Earby they'd either send you to Jacky Waterworth or young Tooley.
R- Aye well. I will say this about young Tooley, and he had another brother, they tell lies but they were interesting lies.
Aye.
R- Aye, they weren’t all silly there were sommat about 'em. You could sit and listen to ‘em, although you knew they were telling 'em all time.
I can remember him once, somebody took a mushroom in. It were a big un. It were like a dinner plate and he showed it to him. “There you are Tooley! I bet tha’s never seen one like that before.” Oh he says, “I had one bigger than that t’other week. I was walking down Thornton Bottoms and I found it. My biggest job were getting the sheep from underneath it before I picked it!” [Both laugh.]
R- Aye, typical, aye.
And what were another one. Oh, he were wi’ the Gurkhas during the war and he says they had these knives, these Kukris and he says they throw ‘em you know and he says they can hit anything. And he says I were going through the jungle one day with a Gurkha and he says there were this here Japanese bloke and the Gurkha pulls this Kukri back, he fetches it back to throw it. Tooley says, No, let me throw it, so he did. And this Japanese bloke never moved and the Gurkha turned round, he says you've missed him. Tooley said, I nodded to him and his head dropped off.
[Fred and Stanley burst out laughing.]
R- Aye, he were good weren’t he! Can you see Stanley? I’ll put the light on and pull the curtains.
Did your mother ever shop at the Co-op?
R- Well we were members at the Co-op and she went occasionally.
Aye.
R- She didn't shop there for all her stuff, little bits and bats. Pair of shoes, you know shoes and get your clogs ironed there and new clogs sometimes.
Whereabouts were the Co-op then, where it is now?
R- Where it is now.
At top of Victoria Road?
R- Yes.
(400)
(25 mins)
Aye. Why did she shop at the Co-op?
R- Well I don't know like. Nearly everybody were a member of the Co-op in them days. We got what you could say a lot of groceries there, it were nearly all other things. As I say, clogs, shoes mending, clogs mending. I don't know whether you could get shirts there or not.
Yes.
R- Sommat like that, we never had a lot of divi.
What were the divi then, any idea?
R- Oh about three pence were…
About three pence in the pound?
R- And then it went up, kept going up and up and up and up and it ud be about 2/6d. at one time. 2/6d in the pound.
That were a good do weren’t it when you come to think.
R- Aye it were. Aye and I can allus remember the number; 752.
Aye. Can you remember any local shops giving credit?
R- No I wouldn’t like to say on that no. Oh, happen Isaac Levi, he probably would, he had a furniture shop.
Aye. That were like where Banham’s cycle shop used to be weren’t it.
R- That's it, a side of there.
Aye. Eh ... that's something that's just come into me mind an all. Just while I think, Newton Pickles has a very good pocket watch, a really good one, a chronometer and it has, now what were t’name of that watch maker across the road from Banham’s.
R- Emmott’s.
Emmott, that's it, he’d be going then wouldn't he.
R- There were Nelson Emmott and then it changed over to Jack Emmott his brother.
Yes. but like that Emmott were there. It was Emmott’s in them days wasn't it.
R- Yes.
That shop, yes. 'Cause it has his name on it you know, it has the name on the watch. [I think the watches were actually made by Fattorini’s at Bradford. They were big silver pocket watches and much favoured by local engine tenters.] It is a good watch an all, and there’s more than one about. In fact Newton has two. He has two of them watches, I keep trying to get him to give me one, not sell me, give me one but he won't do it yet. Was there a pawn shop in Earby?
(450)
R- No not to me knowing, unless Isaac ud pawn you a bit of sommat on the quiet.
Aye.
R- There was no legitimate pawn shop.
Yes, course Isaac ud be brother to .....
R- Same as him that were up at Barlick.
Up Barlick.
R- It were the same firm.
Yes. Aye, well there were two brothers weren’t there aye. Was there anything you ate then, you know, any food you had then that you can’t get now?
R- I don't think so Stanley, no.
Any idea how much house-keeping money your mother ud have then?
R- I haven't the foggiest idea on that.
It's reight. It doesn’t matter if you don't know.
R- Well she wouldn't have so much, I mean they didn't earn much did they.
No, no, what would a tacklers wage be then?
R- Oh it would only be £2.10s. or sommat like that at one time.
Aye.
R - And then gradually it got up a bit.
Yes. Course that wouldn't be a bad wage then would it though.
R- It were a good wage, because weavers were making about £1.10s. weren't they.
Aye, and I should of course point out that we mean one pound ten shillings and not one pound and ten pence, this silly bloody money they have now. Can you remember anything about the first world war? About people queuing for food or whether food was short or anything like that?
R- Oh yes. I can remember queuing, and we used to go to Barlick to the Maypole, queuing for margarine, we used to walk it from Earby.
Aye, aye that were on Frank Street weren’t it?
R- No, I think it were opposite the Majestic.
Opposite the Majestic.
R- Yes.
There’s a funny thing, that's funny ‘cause Vera said she could remember it there but Arthur Entwistle said it were at the bottom of Frank Street. Arthur might be wrong. There you are. And Maypole then, that were just margarine, weren’t it?
[The first margarine in Britain was made in a hat factory at Godley, near Hyde in what is now Tameside. This was taken over in the 1870s by Otto Monsted, a Danish margarine producer. He created Britain's first margarine factory on the site and, in fact, the first churning of Monsted's margarine was recorded as taking place at Godley on April 15, 1889. In 1914 Monsted's margarine business was taken over by the Maypole Dairy Company which was then, in turn, purchased by the William Lever Company. They named the product Planters Margarine. With the opening of the new Planters Margarine factory in Bromborough, margarine production at Godley gradually stopped. The shops they opened all over Britain were general grocers and sold their margarine. When WW1 brought shortages they had a virtual monopoly of margarine sales ]
R- Well, I don’t think they’d have any butter in them days. It ud be just margarine.
(500)
Yes aye. Would you say food were fairly short during the first world war?
R- Aye. I mean sugar were the worst job I think, that were scarce and there weren’t this saccharin like there is to-day.
Aye.
R- But I don’t think there were as many ration cards as what they used to have in the last war.
(30 mins)
Aye.
R- No.
Can you remember. Let's see, 1908 you were born, no perhaps, anyway I’ll ask you anyway. Can you remember anything about the beginning of the war, have you any memories about it?
R- Oh I can remember 'em saying like war were declared and…
Yes.
R- And then you’d to rely on the papers coming like, night or morning to get news out of the papers. There were no wireless or telly in them days.
Yes.
R- Things had been, could be two or three days old you know, big battles were over before you got to know about 'em in England.
As far as you were concerned and your understanding of the job, why did the Great War start, have you any idea?
R- No, no idea about that.
No, well that's fair enough Fred, because when all's said and done you were only six years old. Clothes, did your mother make any of family’s clothes?
R- Aye, she used to make ours as lads and she used to make part of her own.
Did she have a sewing machine?
R - Yes oh aye.
What sort?
R - It were a German one. It were one what her brother bought her for a wedding present.
Aye.
R- Like that were a good wedding present in them days, to get a sewing machine like, so good as what she had.
(550)
Yes. Table or cabinet?
R- Table machine. Oh it were treasured were that. you hadn't to touch it.
Aye they were weren’t they, and good machines an all.
R- Yes. Oh it were marvellous what they could do. Put a shirt on to some paper and draw a pattern and cut ‘em out about half or an inch bigger and make a shirt for you. Then I mean, what there isn't to today, but you had a night shirt when you went to bed. It were a long shirt what come nearly down to your ankles.
Aye.
R- When we were little kids. As we grow older like you didn't bother.
Aye. You say you didn't bother. You didn't bother about a night shirt, or you didn't bother about anything?
R- No, in summer time you got in bed ‘bout owt. In winter you used to get in wi’ your shirt on, there were no pyjamas.
Aye. That’s it, aye. No I never wear owt in bed, I can understand it. Did you have sheets in them days?
R- Yes.
Aye. A lot of people didn’t you know. I’ll tell you sommat interesting, did you have underpants?
R- Aye, they were loose. Loose underpants.
Aye.
R- But they were like a lining, a trouser lining and then they buttoned on the inside.
Inside the trousers.
R- Inside.
Themselves.
R- And then when they got dirty you could take 'em out and wash 'em like.
That's it. Like a loose lining in trousers more than a separate pair. Different than a pair of under pants nowadays.
R- Loose lining. Oh aye. They were more like a loose lining.
More like a washable lining in the trousers.
R- But you got the old fustian pants, them linings were all fast in.
Aye.
R- The whole lot had to be washed to wash the inside.
Aye. And when you say fustian, of course I know you mean what they call corduroy now.
R - Corduroy.
Would them be old fashioned corduroy that used to be a linen warp and a cotton thread? You know? Or would they be cotton corduroy?
(600)
R- They were cotton. They used to stink. Can you remember 'em smelling?
Aye.
R- Aye.
Oh I don't think they make corduroy like they used to. There's sommat about corduroy nowadays, all the nap comes off it.
R- It does.
It didn't used to in old days.
R- No it soon wears off now doesn’t it.
And I’ll tell you sommat about corduroy trousers in the old days that I used to remember and them Bedford cords and all were the same. If you didn't wash 'em and they got reight mucky they used to crack.
(35 mins)
R- Crack, aye, when you were walking.
Yes.
R- Aye they did.
Did you have any passed on clothes Fred?
R - Me brother's, that's about all. He were bigger than me.
Aye. If your mother bought any clothes where would she buy 'em from?
R- Well, as soon as me brother wanted a new suit and she never saw any prospects of making it herself she used to go to Colne or Nelson.
How about Scotchmen. Can you remember them coming?
R – What, coming round?
Yes.
R- No.
No. I say Scotchmen, they used to call ‘em Scotchmen and I don't know why. But what they were, it were Provident men for Provident cheques. It were, there was a firm of tailors somewhere and they used to send people round once a week and they'd call round at the house, measure you up for a suit and fetch it for you next week and they always called 'em Scotchmen. Can you over remember hearing about them in Earby?
R- No. I can remember people coming round but it were later on you know, when I were about seventeen or eighteen.
Aye.
R- They used to come round and there were one fella come from Crosshills. He came for years and years. Just occasionally we got a new suit off him and it was as you say, measured you that Friday and fetched it the following Friday.
Aye.
R- And then we never owed anything, never had any debt. Me father wouldn't buy us anything unless he could pay for it.
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R- But the same fella used to come round every Friday to collect at some of the houses. I will say that about me parents, they were never in debt.
In them days it were a terrible bloody thing to be in debt sometimes, weren’t it. Especially if somebody were sick. What happened to your old clothes Fred?
R- Well if they got too little for me she used to pass 'em on did me mother. Pass ‘em on to somebody else.
Yes.
R- She used to wash ‘em and pass ‘em on.
And if they were absolutely worn out?
R- Aye well they went into a bag. You had a bag, a rag bag. Cut all the buttons off, there must have been thousands of buttons in the house. And then they were put in this rag bag and then when the rag chap come round you'd happen get a penny or twopence for ‘em, a bag full of rags.
Aye. He’d pay for 'em then?
R - Oh he used to.
Aye. Did you ever see a rag chap do anything else but pay you? You know, give people sommat for their rags?
R- Well if there were only a few they might give ‘em a scouring stone.
Aye, donkey stone aye.
R- Aye, but if they were reasonable, penny or twopence, may be up to fourpence if there were a good do.
Some reight good wool or sommat like that.
R- Old Paul Brydon from Barlick used to come round.
Who?
R- They called him Paul Brydon, old Paul.
How did they spell that? Brydon?
R- Brydon I think....
Unusual. Brydon, an unusual name isn't it.
R- But if you talk to some of 'em in Barlick they'll remember him. I think he had a peg leg, you know a wooden leg. [Had a marine store on Forty Steps and later on Commercial Street in Barlick]
Yes, a stump, aye.
R- Aye a stump aye.
Yes, that nearly sounds like a war wound doesn’t it.
R- Unless he’d been in the shafting at the mill or sommat.
What did you wear for school Fred?
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R- Well it were generally short pants in them days when you were young. A waistcoat and a jacket and some on ‘em had jersey's on and they called ‘em ganzies.
That’s it, ganzy, oh aye. Tell me sommat Fred, what age, when did they usually breech lads? I mean up to, lads used to be in petticoats the same as lasses didn't they.
R- Oh aye, they'd be three.
Yes.
R- Aye
They'd be about three year old when they were breeched?
R- Aye. I have a 'photo of me and me brother and I have petticoats on.
I shall want to see them old Photos. I want copies of one or two of them. Aye well, a lot of people find that hard to understand nowadays. When did you get your first pair of long trousers?
R- When I were sixteen.
Aye. So you'd be going to work in short trousers?
R- Short trousers or them knickerbockers. They buttoned at knee did some on ‘em.
That's it, yes.
R In summer time short uns and occasionally, you know, if you wanted a new pair and it were coming winter you might get some knickerbockers.
(40 mins)
Aye.
R- And I were sixteen, me brother he got his when he were sixteen and I got mine when I were sixteen.
Aye I think I got mine when I were fifteen, I call tell you the first place I wore 'em. It were a dance at the Co-op Hall at Audenshaw, Manchester and they were a pair of grey flannels and I thought I were king of the bloody May that day, I’ll tell you.
R- Aye, mine were a pair of fustian pants to go to work in.
Aye. I can remember that. I only got my grey flannels because I needed ‘em for school. I were still at school like, you see, and they were school uniform. I thought I were a bloody king. Long trousers what!
(750)
R- You had pockets down here and it were “Get your hands out of them pockets” You hadn't to put your hands in the pockets. “It’ll make you round shouldered!”
What kind of hat did you wear?
R- Oh just a cap.
Aye.
R- A little cap.
Aye, like a school cap.
R- School cap aye.
That’s it, aye. Button in the middle. Badge on?
R- No.
How about footwear?
R- Clogs.
Clogs.
R- And a pair of shoes for Sunday.
Aye.
R- Saturday and Sunday, for when you were dressed up.
Irons on?
R- Yes. But to me, I think it were a foolish do really were that Sunday shoe job. You only wore 'em at Saturday and Sunday. Saturday if you were setting off with your father and mother. Well I mean, you grew out of 'em. Naturally when your feet were growing you didn't know. I think that's why a lot of folk had bad feet.
Aye. Sunday shoe job.
R- You only wore 'em once a week, twice at most.
Aye, well it's a point of view. Can you ever remember ever having Colne irons on your clogs.
R- Yes, thick irons.
Aye
R- Aye we allus had to have Colne irons on, thick irons, they used to be thick uns.
Aye, they last longer don’t they. I still have some at home. What did your father wear for work?
R- Clogs. He had a pair of heavy boots and he used to go to the mill in these boots then change into his clogs when he got there. Working clogs.
(800)
Aye. What kind of hat did he wear?
R- Just an ordinary cap.
Aye, flat cap. A ratting hat. What did your mother wear? For house work you know.
R- House work.
Yes.
R- Oh she used to have a fairly long apron on.
Aye, did she wear long skirts?
R- Yes, aye.
Aye.
R- Early on.
Aye. When you say early on, she'd get away from long skirts wouldn't she like, she'd go...
R - Oh yes, aye.
Aye.
R- But when we were kids like, they very nearly trailed on the floor.
Yes, that's it.
R- When they were walking they'd to hold 'em up to keep ‘em out of the slutch.
That's it. Can you ever remember 'em using hat protectors for that?
R - Yes.
Hat guards for it, yes aye. And when you come to think like, somebody like your mother, she'd have never have seen anybody in a skirt shorter than down to the floor.
R- No.
And when they started to, I’ve often thought it must have been a big thing for women you know, when they started to shorten. Because they'd never showed their ankles, had they.
R- No they hadn't, no. And then I mean they made there selves old didn't they then, a lot of women?
I think they did. I think you're right.
R- You know, with lace bonnets on and all in black.
Yes.
R- Dark coloured stuff.
That's right. We’re going ahead a bit now but you've mentioned sommat there. I'm going to just push that a little bit because it's something that interests me. You've said something there about women, they made themselves old like. When you come to think about it, what sort of a life do you think women had then?
(850)
R- Oh they had a bad life hadn't they.
Well I mean, I'm asking you ‘cause you were alive then.
R- Oh they had a lot harder life than what they have today. I mean they used to have these youngsters and the father never used to take 'em out for a walk, mother had ‘em all to fetch up. I don't think a lot them, they wouldn't know how to bath a youngster wouldn’t a lot of fathers. In fact they'd no interest at all in 'em I don’t think, only getting ‘em.
And would you say that in general, the way women were regarded then and treated then was any different than the way they’re treated nowadays?
R- Oh I think they were treated as though they were a real mug in them days.
Aye.
R- Aye they were mugs, when you look back.
(45 mins)
Like a second class citizen like. Aye, yes.
R- I know, I wouldn't think like that me father ill treated her or owt like that but it were, she allus had to clean his shoes, clean his clogs. Get his shirt out, get everything ready when he were going to change. When the meal were finished, shift all the stuff. There were no such thing as me father helping to clear the table or wash up or owt of that.
Aye.
(900)
R- No.
And would you say, I get the impression many a time that, this is what started me off when you said that you thought that women perhaps made themselves look old. Would you say that there was no encouragement at all, well let's put it this way, would you think it would be true to say that they were encouraged to make themselves look unattractive in a way?
R- Aye.
They weren’t encouraged to try and show themselves off were they?
R- No, they hadn't to be smart had they.
Aye.
R- But I can remember a lot of women you know, when they got about, well sixty, turned sixty, they had these black bonnets on, all beads and ribbons under here.
Old Mother Riley hats.
R- That’s it aye.
Aye.
R- Aye, when they got older like they all had to have one of them on.
Aye.
R - Allus dark never any light coloured clothes or owt of that.
Aye, and like the shawl were allus dark weren’t it.
R- That's it.
Aye.
R- Aye things has changed a lot since them days.
Yes. Would you say that it was a good thing? You know that things have changed?
R- Oh I think a lot on it's for the better. Biggest part on it’s for the better.
I'm thinking about you know, women's position.
R- Women, yes aye.
Yes.
R- But I think women looked after their children better in them days than what they do to-day. There were no letting 'em run about and clart on like they do. More mannerly. I can remember, we daren't get up from the table without we says Thank you. Please may I leave the table. Oh no, nowt of that. Sit there until..
No bad thing Fred. No bad thing.
R- There were manners. I should be eleven before I got to sit at the table.
Now that’s an interesting thing. Now then, that is an interesting thing Fred. That's something that I wanted to come on to. We’ll just stop this tape and we'll start on the next tape with that.
(977)
SCG/10 April 2003
7,700 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/04
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 28TH OF SEPTEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Now then when we finished that last tape you were just on about sommat very interesting to me. You were saying about standing at the table,
R- Well when we were little I can remember. there were a little high chair and me mother used to lift me into that and sit up to table in that and me brother used to be stood at side of me because he were a bit bigger. But he were stood on a little buffet and as I got older I can remember me brother, he could just make a do without. I'd to stand on the buffet then, they did away wi’ the high chair.
Yes.
R - But we were stood there and as I say you daren’t move. You hadn't to go away and I think it teach you a lot of manners did that. Table manners.
Yes. But the thing is that you were stood at the table instead of sitting at the table.
R- That's it aye.
Now when did you first sit at table?
R - Oh I'd be ... I should think I’d be ten or eleven.
And when did you first start work Fred?
R - Well, like I went half time at twelve.
Yes. Because I know with a lot of people, 'cause obviously I’ve come across this before and with some people they didn’t used to let them sit at the table until they started work.
R – Aye. That’s right.
Aye, and I was wondering whether it was the same with you.
R – No. Well, I’d nearly getten to working.
Yes that's it, and would you say it were fairly common?
R - Oh yes. I know me mates, they were the same, they’d to stand at table.
Aye. Very interesting.
R - And I used to go to one of me father’s cousins, and he had six youngsters and there wouldn't be ten years in all the lot. And they had a table on their own. Father and mother sat at one table and all these, they were round this table and the mother served ‘em all and then she came and served father and her and they dare not say anything or they daren’t move. And when the father and mother had finished, she sided their plates and then went and give youngsters their second round of pudding or sommat like that. And then when the father and mother had had their pudding they'd say right and the kids would say thank you very much, please may we leave the table. And that were it then.
Yes.
R - I've seen ‘em sit there ten minutes after father and mother had finished, but they were all grand children, they were.
Have you ever been to a farm house where they've had farm men and seen a similar thing?
R - No.
No. No well I didn't think you would have done. I have, I’ll
(50)
tell you and funnily enough it was only, now just let me think, about fifteen years ago. It was at Calton, you know, up behind Eshton. And I went to a farm one day and delivered a load of straw and went in the kitchen. They had four farm men at that farm, either three or else four I can’t just remember now, and the family’s sat at one table and four men at another. And the farm men's table were scrubbed and the family’s table had a cloth on.
R – Aye.
And I said when I come back, I said that that were a bit of old England that you know....
R- Aye.
A bit of old England. I've heard people talk about that and they used to have two sorts of pies you know, and they used to have 'em marked with a cross on the pastry. There were one lot for farm men and one lot for the family and the difference were that the family’s had sugar in.
R- Aye.
Ted Waite used to work at Friars Head and he said that during the war, he said it were a funny do, one day, now what was his name at Friars Head at Winterburn, Taylor.
R - Taylor aye.
Old Taylor.
R – That’s it aye, at Friars Head.
(5 mins)
That’s it. He said it were a funny do, it were a Tuesday and they had meat for dinner. He couldn't reckon it up, middle of winter an all you know, he said I thought this is a real do and then Ted thought no, he didn't have any of this meat you know. And he said, after dinner instead of sitting there for ten minutes like they used to do he went out and he said it had snowed very heavy. And nobody had been away from the farm during the morning, they'd been busy round the buildings you know. And he said there were one set of foot marks going off through snow and he followed 'em through the snow and found this dead ewe with a leg missing.
R – Aye. [Fred laughs]
Aye, that were why they had mutton on Tuesday. Old Taylor knew this ewe weren’t right good so he’d popped out…
R- I know that name.
Aye, Taylor.
R- Taylor at Friars Head.
Oh Taylor at Friars Head, he were famous were that fella.
R - There were another fella. Seat House....
Clark..
R- Clark.
Clark’s at Seat House...
R- He were a bugger were that.
Oh aye. I used to go there an all. They had all the milk rounds in Skipton.
R – Aye.
And they had all the hospital milk in Skipton up to not so long since. And old Clark, he were an old fella then like. I used to pick the milk up and he always used to be sat in the yard. It had been, it was a peculiar place that farm because…
R- It were a peculiar house weren’t it?
Yes.
R- To go in.
That's it and it were wood upstairs....
R- That’s it aye.
It were stone at bottom and wood at top and it were reight on the yard. It were like an old fashioned manor house style of thing with a yard and everything went on in the cobbled yard in front of house. And they had a boiler there for sterilising the milk tins and old Clark allus used to be sat there. I’ve never seen him but what he was splitting kindling. Now whether that was with me allus going at the same time I don't know, but I allus used to think they must use a hell of a lot of kindling at that place. Either that or he were running a firewood business on t’side.
R - Aye, aye.
But he were a grand fella were old Clark actually.
R- Aye.
And there were two brothers I think, but it were a funny set up were that.
R- Aye. Well, the old woman who lived next door here,
(100)
she came from up in the Dales where they keep race horses and that.
Thirsk?
R- No. It were one of the other places.
Leyburn.
R - Leyburn.
Aye.
R - Her husband got chucked off a horse and he were killed and she came back then to live here and her husband and Clark were brothers. This Mrs Clark, she says to me mother we'll take you to Seat House and they could go on the bus then to Gargrave and then they walked on to..
Yes, down to Eshton and up to the top there, Flasby road end.
R – Aye. She said what a cob shop it were. [‘cob’ is a local word for curious] Did you know Eric, Eric Clark, the lad?
Aye.
R- There were him and a farmer’s man, similar to Eric, two big young fellas. Well they'd no bath then at Seat House and every Friday they used to come to Earby, they had a motor-bike, and Eric went next door for a bath and the farmer’s man came here for a bath. ‘Cause it were one of them do's, they were going dancing, and if same as Eric had his bath and he’d to have is bath an all, well there were a lot of time wasted. So me mother says “Oh you mun come and have one at our house.” And so Eric says “You're interested in rabbiting aren't you Mr Inman?” He says “Yes” He says “Come over to our place. We’ve got plenty. But if I aren’t about, get me dad to write you a paper out, you know, that you've got permission.”
Aye.
R- “Aye, alright.” So we went, it were one September me father and me went, I think we got thirty and we weren’t a reight long while of getting these thirty. So when we were coming away me dad says “We'll have ten a piece and leave them ten.” So he says to Eric, “We’ve getten thirty Eric. We'll leave you ten and take ten apiece.” Eric thought that were a good do because I think they got a shilling apiece for ‘em. Somebody picked them up. Eric says “It's a good do is that Mr, Inman. So next time he came for a bath he says, “Well, I don't like telling you but me father says “Is that all they've left, ten. They’re not coming no more. They should have taken ten and left twenty.” So Eric says “I'm sorry about it.”
(10 mins)
Old school.
R- So me father says “Look, don’t stop coming here for that.”
No.
R- He came for a long, long while, aye.
Aye. But thing about that you see Fred, it's the old school.
R - Oh yes.
If they'd left twenty he'd have wanted twenty five.
(150)
R- Aye, that’s it. Aye.
I mean it's something you've got to allow. That’s something that people don't realise you know. What I call the old school, you know what I mean don’t you. Yes, it were a different do altogether.
R- Aye.
I always say that people don’t realise how hard they had it in them days. I'll just tell you sommat about that. Charlie Sutton on at Brierfield, fluer. Weldone fluers, always flued boilers, he's somebody I want to tape an all. Grand fella Charlie. His father Jim, talk about a hard man, oh Jesus he's as hard as flint and they call him Louis, they all call him Louis, they don’t call him Jim you know, it's the family name for him. And he's a grand fella is Jim like but God, he’d skin a louse for it's hide.
R - Aye.
And it doesn’t matter how much he gets, he’s allus trying for that bit more. Charlie used to get on about it you know, and he used to say me dad this that and the other, he used to play hell about his dad. Well I mean, there’s times when you do fall out with your dad, you'll fall out with your dad before you'll fall out with one of your mates like, won't you. But I used to say to him “Charlie, you’ve got to just remember he's getting old and he’s had it bloody hard.” I were talking to old Jim one day, and he says “You know, they talk about having it hard, I’ve seen slavery and people starving to death on the streets of Nelson!” And it's sommat you've got to remember. When he said slavery he didn't mean slavery like they think with black slaves. But the same thing you know, you know what he meant, you know people that were just absolutely tied to a job and they weren’t making enough. You know, I mean it wasn't possible to make enough money to live on.
R - No.
But it were all they could do and you know, when a bloke's seen that and seen what can happen they get into the habit of trying for as much as they can get all the time. And once you've been like that for seventy five years Fred, you can’t stop.
R – Aye, you can’t alter, no.
You can’t expect a leopard to change it's spots.
R- No.
And you've got to bear it in mind when you're on with fellas like old Clark. There used to be a fella, it wouldn’t surprise me if he were still alive, a bloke called George Staveley up at Settle. George Staveley is a legend up there. Mind you there's just a possibility he may be dead now but I don't know. I don't know, they might have him hung up somewhere drying but by God. He was eighty odd and if you go out of Settle up what they call If Hill, at back, there's a big steep hill goes up at back and comes down into Kirby Malham. You can either go down to, what's the name of that place between Gargrave and Long Preston? [Bell Busk] Anyway you can either drop down on to Gargrave or the Long Preston road or you can turn up left and come down through Kirby Malham, you know. And George had some land reight up on top there as you're going up out of Settle. There's a big hill goes up at the back, a big limestone hill and he had a lot of black cattle up there. Years after he were supposed to have retired, and one day he went missing in middle of winter. There was a lot of snow on ground and he went missing and they got the bloody mountain rescue out 'cause they knew he’d gone to look
(210)
these beasts you know and it's blowing a blizzard and he used to walk. He didn't used to ride up you know, he used to walk up this hill every day, eighty odd years old. And all he ever wore were them terrible, do you remember them things, they were like short Wellingtons that laced up.
R- Aye.
I should think they were about the worst thing that were ever made for your feet. That's all he ever used to wear. And they found him, he was sat behind three bales of straw watching his beasts and reight enjoying himself and he couldn't understand why they'd come searching for him.
(15 mins)
R- No.
And one day I were down at Cyril Richardson's at Little Stainton and a van pulls up, a little van, and this fella gets out of the passenger seat and it were George Staveley. And I said “Eh, by God, look who’s here, it’s George! What are you after?” He said, “Young man, do you know of a fella called Metcalfe round here?” I said “Aye, just up the road there.” He said, “I understand he has a Standard Ford tractor for sale, a paraffin tractor.” Which he had, Wallace had two and he were right attached to them. He didn’t like new-fangled tractors he used to like one that you could stand on when you were driving it, like the old Standard Ford. And he said “Wait a minute, would it be Wallace Metcalfe?” I said “Aye.” He turned round to this fella who was driving, and he said “Hungriest bugger in Craven, we’re wasting us time!” And this voice come down from the house. It were Cyril, he must have come out of door you see and realized who it were. He says “Well, that'll be a bloody laugh. It’ll be the two hungriest buggers in Craven together when you get up there!!” And I don't know whether he ever got this tractor bought but he were reight you know.
R- Aye,
I'd have given a pound, I said to Cyril, we ought to have walked up there just to eavesdrop on the conversation because I’ll bet it were worth listening to. Aye, because they were both same you see, they were both hungry.
R- Aye. [Fred laughs]
I’ve come down to interview you and we've started a conversation, anyway, its not a bad thing. That's something that they had then that they've not got now. Can you ever think on, you've heard people talk about why blacks make good boxers and this that and the other.
(250)
they say it’s because they are hungry.
R- Yes.
And you know that were why they were good men.
R- Mm..
When I say good men, able men.
R- Yes.
Because they'd bloody well had to be...
R - had to be, aye.
Fred, or they didn't survive.
R – No they didn't did they.
And I’ll tell you where else it applies, weavers. That were the way to make weavers and I'm convinced that’s why they can’t make weavers nowadays.
R – That’s it. Aye.
They’re not hungry enough.
R- No. And I allus found this out and me father allus said same. There were very few women went in pubs going back, you know, fifty year. But if you'd a weaver went into a pub or a club and liked a gill or two and smoked, there weren’t a lot smoked then, they were allus the best weavers.
That's it.
R- 'Cause they went to work to make their ale money.
That's it. Yes.
R- And you know, they'd look after home an all but they wanted five or six bob extra to spend.
Do you know I’m convinced that biggest part of the weavers at Bancroft are running cars!
R – That’s it. Pin money isn’t it.
They’re keeping the car.
R- Oh that's all it is isn't it. It's came as these evening shifts. You get these evening shifts, six till ten, it's nearly all to run motor cars. We used to laugh about 'em. There’d be six motor cars waiting outside at New Road waiting of their wives coming out at ten o'clock, fellas sat in. They were working to run the car and the fella were coming to take ‘em home, they wore buggered at night.
Aye.
R - All to run a car.
Aye.
R- It is so. And that's what's ruining the cotton trade isn’t it. How many reight workers were there up there Stanley, not a reight lot. [At Bancroft Shed]
Oh I should think, well you could certainly number 'em on one hand.
R- Aye you could aye. That came to earn good wages.
Aye that came to work. That came to weave, and I don't know but you know I think one of silliest things that they ever did was, can you remember when they put that £8.50 on. They had nowt for years and then all of a sudden they give 'em that £8.50 and they put it on the time rate.
R – That’s it. Aye, well the union went in for all that, didn't they.
Well what it amounted to was, I once got on to Jim one day, and I say's tell me sommat, no names, no pack drill, but I picked a lousy weaver in the shed. I said what's the difference between her wage and Mary Wilkins? He said You've just hit the nail on the head. A Fiver.
(300)
R – Aye, a pound a day difference eh.
Aye. and he says that’s before tax.
R – Aye.
He said a fiver. That’s just what difference it makes.
R- Oh what they earned were nowt, it were what they were getting for the time, this flat rate.
Aye, but isn’t it a terrible thing though when you think that things that have been done to improve peoples conditions, in the long run actually worsen the condition because it means that there’s no hungry weavers. They’re not sharp workers, the industry doesn’t do as well so in the finish I mean it's their own throat.
(20 mins)
R - Aye they've killed their own pig haven't they.
And really it's all been done with the best intentions.
R- Intentions, yes.
But the final result is actually, the final condition is worse than the first.
R - Yes but you know when you'd every ha'penny to earn it were different weren’t it. And they worked, biggest part on ‘em. And it were t’same wi’ the tacklers, they relied on the weavers making their wage.
Aye.
R - Well, if a weaver come and a picker had broke, he went and put it on. There were no ‘Oh bugger 'em’, and finish a conversation.
Yes, aye.
R - Me father allus used to say they make your wage, does them weavers. You allus had to be on your toes, no laiking about, and it were so and I've allus stuck to that. I've never been one that could sit about a lot. When I were at Johnsons or wherever I've been, if I've had nowt to do I'd have a walk all round me set. Then if any weaver wanted owt, they weren’t trailing about, you were on the job then.
Aye.
R- And at Johnsons, bugger this like being sat at the bench making picking bands or sommat. I'd have a walk all round and nowt doing, then I'd happen go, they had a bit of a cabin in t’mill, I'd go in there, sit down then I’d be up. “Tha’rt allus on thee bloody feet.” There were some of ‘em there, reight honest, they'd sit there for a couple of hours and never bloody move.
Aye.
R- And then happen two weaver’s ud come in, “Bloody hell fire!! Two of the buggers now!” Well it were their own fault.
Aye.
R- Same as I’ve done yonder and I used to do at other places where they’ve had belts. Either at dinner time or first thing at morning I used to go round looking at the belts. If I saw any breaking I'd have ‘em up before the engine started.
(350)
That's it aye.
R- ‘Cause I could chuck ‘em up as good as anybody but I never liked it, no.
No. I should just explain, that's something people won’t understand listening to this. What you’re talking about is going round and looking round your belts when the engine was stopped.
R - When it's stopped.
So that if there were any repairs wanted doing you could do 'em then instead of having to mount a belt while the shafting were moving.
R – That’s it aye.
Aye. Because I've always said that it’s a mugs game that you know. I realise that people are very good at it and all the rest of it but when you think about it, and when you look at them old belt fasteners with hooks on.
R- Aye, aye.
Can’t you just.
R- Aye, they were real uns weren’t they.
One of them coming round and catching in your overalls.
R- Oh they were deadly things.
Instant disaster.
R- Yes.
I got ‘em out the other day and we fit 'em up on to a piece of belt and did some photographs of them. Do you remember when you give it to me?
R- Aye. They were a novelty weren’t they. They’re a wonderful invention in a way.
Aye, and funnily enough Roy has one in his box.
R- Aye, I give him one.
And he said he had an idea there was one belt somewhere, just one belt somewhere in that shed that has one of these in still. But he said he couldn’t think where. I said that if I ever found it I’d cut the belt.
A - Aye.
1 said somebody walking past and it just happened to catch in their clothes, they’d be off round the shaft!
R- I know when I took that up Roy said you can’t fasten belts wi’ that! I said course they can!
Aye.
R- And I showed him, “Will it hold?” I said “Thee try and pull it apart.” And they used to cut like razors and all. Bloody sharp.
Aye on the inside, aye. Anyway you see we started talking about clothing and we’ve got round to belt fasteners! That’s no bad thing, no bad thing, don't worry, all good stuff. It’s all good stuff. We'll get back to my nosey piece of paper. We were on about what your mother wore in the house.
R- Yes.
Now she'd nearly always have a pinny on in the house wouldn’t she?
R- Yes.
Now tell me Fred, were it what you call a proper pinny, you know, made up. Or were it like a fent, you know, like a brat. [A brat is a fent wrapped round the waist.]
R- No, a proper pinny, made up.
Aye. Now if she went out would she keep her pinny on?
R – No, she took her pinny off.
Aye.
R- And I never knew me mother do it, but a lot of women, they had a pocket in and they allus had their purse in that pinny pocket.
(400)
Aye. They never left it in a drawer or owt of that. Now have you ever seen a woman with a pinny on take one corner of it and tuck it into her waist band?
R- Aye.
Now why did they do that.
R- Well, I've seen 'em do it when they’ve been kneeling down. I don't know why but I’ve seen ‘em. I've seen weavers do it, women weavers when they were sweeping, pick it up and tuck it in then they’d go down on that knee. Probably if they knelt on the pinny it ud pull it down or sommat like that.
(25 mins)
Pull on it aye.
R- Yes, I’ve seen that when they used to sweep for their self.
R- Regular do with some women, tuck it in up here, just one side, ‘cause they allus went down on that knee. Just one corner aye.
And of course they wouldn’t call 'em a pinny in the mill.
R- No.
They’d allus be, you tell me the name Fred.
R- They called 'em a brat.
That's it.
R- A brat aye.
A brat, aye like they used to be a fent didn't they, you know, a fent and they always called ‘em a brat.
R- A brat, aye.
Now tell me something, in the mill when people were wearing a fent like that, have you ever seen 'em use an apron hook?
R - Apron hook.
Have you never come across an apron hook?
R – No, not to my knowing.
Reight, next week when I come down I'll give thee one. I have a box full at home.
R- Aye.
I’ll give thee one, you'll be suited with that. They used to have a thing, it was like, it was a piece of brass that acted like a button if you will and they were shaped. Some ud be like four leaf clovers and some ud be hearts and some stars and things like that. And then from the back of it there were welded on to the back, brazed on to the back were a piece of brass,. thick brass wire, and it went out straight from the back and then bent at right angles and then it went along about two inches and then on the end it was turned up into a hook. And what you did was put your brat on with the joint at the front and put it across put the hook through, one piece, one side of it and pull it through until it were like a button. It couldn’t go through any further and then just pull your fent up tight, and
(450)
hook the hook through and then turn it round.
R- Aye.
And it were an apron hook.
R- No I can never remember them no.
No. Well I think they're very old. I've never come across anybody yet who can tell me what they are.
R- No.
The only reason I know what they are is that it was written on the box. It was some old stock out of an ironmonger’s shop in Barlick.
R – Aye.
And I’ll bring you one. I’ll not forget that. I’ll bring you one down.
R- Aye they are interesting, aye.
Aye 'cause as I say I have a box full. I keep giving 'em away, like they're going down now but I have a full box, all wrapped in tissue paper and the price is on the box, two pennies.(2d.)
R - Twopence aye.
Aye they’d be ten bob now. They charge eight bob for them silly sex pistol buttons that they get. They're eight bob you know. They're forty pence.
R - That's it aye.
First time I saw one of the lads wi’ one I said Christ Almighty! I said have you paid eight bob for that.
R- Eh, aye.
When you think, eight shillings! Anyway we're getting away from the job again. Course it's clothing is that, apron hook. Did your dad mend the family’s shoes?
R- If they weren’t too bad he used to heel 'em and sometimes he soled ours, lads, and then filled 'em with studs.
Aye, what did he sole 'em with?
R- Leather.
Aye but did he used to buy proper boot leather?
R- Yes, he used to buy it from the ironmongers, they used to sell soles ready cut didn't they.
Aye, that's it yes. I were just wondering if you’d ever had ‘em done with a piece of belting.
R- No. But sometimes if you’d worn 'em off just at one place he used to put a patch on there, nail a patch on.
Aye, that's it. Aye it ud be uncomfortable walking for a bit till you'd levelled it out.
R- Till it got levelled out a bit aye.
I’ll tell you a funny story about that. Newton Pickles tells about being at a mill, at this mill and they were putting a belt in and typical mill owner you know, he comes along and he looks at this belt and he says to Newton. It were a big belt it were about fifty or sixty foot you know, like a thirty foot belt doubled you know.
(30 mins)
Eight inch belt. And he says to Newton, “There’s a lot of joints in that belt!” Newton turned round and he says “Hasta ever seen a cow sixty feet long?”
R- Fred laughs.
You can just imagine it can’t you.
R- That's it aye.
This fella had never thought, he went bright red and walked away.
(500)
R- Aye.
Aye he says Hasta ever seen a cow sixty feet long?
R- Aye that’s good isn't it.
Aye, anyway. How many outfits of clothes do you think you ever had at one time?
R - Only two. Weekday and weekend.
That's it aye. And tell me, when the weekend outfit started to get a bit shabby and weekday wore out did weekend get to be weekday?
R - Got to be weekday then.
That's it aye. And how often did you have clean clothes. You know, your suit and what not, did it ever go away to be dry cleaned?
R- No there were nowt of that then.
R- No, they were allus just shook and brushed and that were it.
That’s it aye.
R- They used to go purple. It were supposed to be indigo, navy blue you know. Indigo dye or sommat they called it but it used to go purple wi’ age.
They used to go shiny an all didn't they.
R- Aye they did.
Aye serge trousers, they used to go like mirrors.
R - Aye. [Fred laughs]
Have you over heard of anybody being sewn in for the winter?
R- Sewed in?
Sewn. Having their clothes stitched up, keeping 'em on all winter.
R- No.
No, I haven't either. Did your mother belong to a savings club for clothing and boots and shoes or owt like that?
R- No.
They'd pay as they got them, that's it. Would the boss tackler at the mill dress different than the other tacklers?
R- Well, a long while back there were no such thing as a boss tackler at some of the firms. There were just three tacklers or four tacklers and they just looked after their own set. There were no boss tackler but when you got to these big firms where there were happen seven or eight tacklers, there might be a boss tackler there but no I don't think they’d dress any different.
(550)
Have you ever seen a tackler, this might sound a silly question, but have you ever seen a tackler wear a bowler hat for work?
R- No, but I’ve heard about ‘em.
Aye.
R- Aye billycocks.
That’s it yes.
R- Aye, I’ve heard about 'em and I’ve heard about a, now then, this Pickles ud happen be some relation to these other Pickles. Johnny Pickles at Sough.
Aye.
R- He were one of the bosses and he’d go in the mill and he’d think this isn’t just reight. They tell me he used to walk round the mill with his billycock on. He used to pull his billycock off, put it on the cloth at top and then get under the loom and alter the bands or sommat like that. Then he'd get up, put his billycock on, and set the loom on and if it wasn't just reight, take his billycock off again and put it on the loom and then wander off.
I have an idea, you know Johnny Pickles at Brown and Pickles, I’m just about sure that were his uncle.
R - Aye it would be.
Because Pickles used to live at Kelbrook you know because Johnny Pickles’ father were the cobbler at Kelbrook. And I think first job that Johnny ever had apart from the office job, they give him an office job and he run away, but I think the first job he ever had were doing bits of things on the engine down at Sough. Or at least he used to go down there regular and laik about round the engine when he were a lad. No that's right, they were related. [His uncle ran the engine]
R- Yes. They tell me these fellas that wore these billycocks regularly, they used to get new crowns on 'em. They used to keep the brim ‘cause it fit to their head did that brim and they got a new crown put on when they got battered and out of shape. They reckoned that Johnny Pickles did 'cause he were allus bashing his wi’ going in the mill and bumping 'em.
Aye.
R - They got new crowns in.
Well I’ve never heard of that, I can believe it.
(600)
R- Yes aye. That's tale they tell like, you know, you've got to believe what you’re told.
Yes that's it.
R- When they were feasible and not big romancers. It's possible isn't it.
Yes. It's interesting is that, I can quite believe it. That's first time I’ve ever come across that, you're a little gold mine Fred. Did you notice any change in clothes after the first world war, did anything strike you about the difference in dress after the war? Either your own or women’s?
R- Well I think it came that gradual you didn't notice owt.
How about length of skirt? When did you first realise that the length of skirts was altering?
(35 mins)
R - Well it were young lasses that started wearing them a bit shorter. They used to wear well below the knee like when they went to school and then as they got older they, when they got about fifteen or sixteen there got to be a bit of a craze on and they were up to the knee.
Aye.
R- But that’s all that I can really remember about 'em shortening like that. I think the other were that gradual you never really noticed it.
Aye. How about colours Fred?
R- Well, they were fairly drab, there weren’t so many colours.
Aye.
R- Like during the war and after the war they were nearly all the old, you know, as we say blue suits and women ud happen have brown coats, grey coats and black uns. There weren’t a lot of colours about at all, and I mean all shirts were more or less what they call Clitheroe. They were woven in Clitheroe, satin shirts with a stripe in. It were well known were that. Clitheroe shirts.
Aye.
R- And then you used to put a stiff collar on, linen collars, celluloid collars.
Celluloid collars. I can remember them, I used to have some of them.
R- When they got worn they used to cut your neck in bits.
(650)
Aye. Cheese cutters, aye. I’ll tell you where we used to wear them, on the choir. Eton collars and they used to come up under your jaws.
R- Aye.
How the hell they expected you to sing, but I’ll tell you why they did it.
R- Keep you up.
It was so you held the hymn books up.
R- Aye.
Aye. And then they went on to ruffs as well, that were a different job altogether, you could put your hymn book down. But them Eton collars, no chance.
R- No. [Fred laughs]
Once you'd got that on you'd got to keep your head up else you'd cut your throat!
R- You can see ‘em all can’t you like, you can imagine them all up in the air.
Aye you cut your throat if you didn't. What kind of clothes. Let's see, in 1920's you'd be about twelve year old. Well you were wearing these clothes we were on about. when you got so as you were a young fellow, eighteen, nineteen, twenty. What sort of clothes did you wear? Say you were going out, say for a walk wi’ a young lass, you were going to a dance or sommat, what kind of clothes did you wear then?
R- Oh you had your suit.
Aye.
R- There were no sports coats and flannels or owt of that.
Yes.
R - You had to have a suit on.
Aye.
R- And then gradually flannels came in they got to be all the rage did flannels and a blue blazer.
Aye.
R- I've had 'em both.
Aye. How about bags? Oxford bags?
R- I never had any Oxford bags, no. That were washed out.
Aye, I should think so an all.
R- I should think so, they were a gimmick weren’t they.
Aye. They'd be keeping weavers going somewhere though.
R - Aye there were plenty of stuff in.
There were enough material in a pair of Oxford bags to make three bell tents.
R- Aye.
Anyway, family life in the home. Well we've talked about you being at the table and not sitting down and about your behaviour at the table. Were your parents strict with you about anything, you know, like being cheeky or swearing or owt like that?
(700)
R- Oh yes, very Victorian.
Now I'm going to stop you there. I want to ask you sommat now. You say very Victorian, I understand exactly what you mean and I think most people would, but why do you think you use that turn of phrase to describe it?
R- It's a phrase that they've allus used I think.
Aye.
R- As I can remember. They wouldn't say like, Georgian or owt of that, George’s reign, it were allus back to the Victorian do.
Aye, aye and what do you mean when you say very Victorian? In what way Fred?
R- Well there were no such thing as sex mentioned or owt of that. Anybody having to get wed, you'd never hear me father and mother talking about owt like that or anybody having a youngster what shouldn't do. No, you never talked about that in the house. If anybody came in and happened to mention it me father ud shut ‘em up reight away.
Aye.
R- Aye, no. And as regards swearing, you never heard me father swear or, well me mother never did like.
Aye. And can you ever remember asking your mother about anything, you know, like asking her where babies come from or something like that.
R- No, no. It wore allus kept a reight dark secret.
Never mentioned?
R- No.
Aye. So when they talk about sex education nowadays, I mean you’ll just laugh your socks off because you never had any and yet you seemed to manage alright.
R - Aye. You'd to learn a lot yourself, I don't know, you'd to be sensible.
Aye.
R- Act reight in your head and that sort of thing.
That's it aye.
R- You got some clever blokes but there used to be a book called 'Health and Strength' and it were a very good book. I used to buy it and that it kept you on the straight and narrow.
[‘Health and Strength was first published in 1894 and is still in print.]
(750)
(40 mins)
R- And the saying in it were ‘Sacred is thy body even as thy soul.’ that were the motto of that and it stuck in my mind and I used it that way.
Aye.
R- And I allus thought well, you hear some of these clever blokes going on about going out wi’ lasses and what they'd done. I thought well it's really nowt to swank about.
Aye, that’s it.
R- Never appealed to me didn’t that.
Yes.
R - In fact I know one lad, held been telling up and down who he went with, well, it were one of me cousins. He bragged about it but he had to put a public apology in the paper.
Aye.
R- Aye, he had that and that did cap him.
When were that?
R- Oh back when we were about twenty. She were just a bit older than me, she'd be about twenty or twenty one and he’d be the same.
What year would that be about?
R- Going back forty odd year isn’t it.
Aye.
R- It quietened him, and it quietened a lot more of t’other lads an all.
It would do aye. How did that come about like, who made him put it in paper.
R- Me auntie.
Aye.
Aye, she did reight.
R- Now whether she, the lass, had done you know, she said that it weren’t so, she'd happen been to the doctors. I know it were hushed up in our house but we heard about it outside you see.
Well you would do if it were in the paper.
R- Aye.
Because it makes you really wonder what they had to gain in some ways. Because I mean it more or less draws peoples attention. I mean, you know what everybody says, they say hello, no smoke without fire.
R- Aye, aye.
And you see nowadays they go on about sex education, kids have to be taught this and taught that and taught the other. I don't know, it makes you wonder Fred.
R - It does.
Well I’ll tell you one thing for sure because the reason I know is that I can remember exactly where I was when this particular conversation took place. It was in a cloak room at a school and I didn't go to that school until I was eleven years old. It were a grammar school, and I can remember arguing about where babies came from. And I were wrong.
R - Aye.
And that were at eleven years old.
R- Eleven year old aye.
But I’ll tell you where a lot of people’s saving grace were that didn't live in towns, they were close to animals all the time.
R- Aye.
And I know with my kids at home, there's allus been cattle about, pigs sheep and what not and it's amazing, it's amazing. I’ll tell you a funny little story about that, it'll suit you. Two little lasses, one of ‘em just talking and t’other one two years older than her. That's Margaret and Susan, my two daughters. I had a dog it were a cross between a Jack Russell and a Lakeland. And you know what Lakeland's are like for lying with all their legs out. You know so they don't get trapped in holes and what not.
R- Aye.
This is true, this actually happened, Vera will tell you the same. We're stood in the porch one day and the lawn’s just outside over bit of back yard, you know, flagged yard like. And the dog's laid on it's back and the two kids are there, you know one just toddling
(850)
and just talking and the other one two yearn older, swallowed the bloody map, knows everything. Susan says to Margaret, “What's this?” “Oh, that’s what he wees through.” And there's silence for a minute or two you know and the dog’s sprawled on it’s back in the sun. “What’s this?” “That's where he does his business.” And it's quiet for a minute or two longer and me and Vera were looking at each other. And Susan says “What's this?” Margaret says “I don't know but me dad’s got one!” [Stanley and Fred burst out laughing] Eh ... we've laughed many a time about that.
R - Aye.
She says “I don't know. But me dad’s got one.” She hadn't got round to the knacker job, she couldn't understand what knackers were for, she could understand t’other two plain enough aye.
R- Aye.
Well we’ve laughed many a time about that. Anyway, where are we. If you did something wrong at home, how did you get punished Fred?
R- Strap.
Strap.
When you say strap, were it a belt or were it a shaving strop?
(45 mins)
R- It were a piece of belting what had come from the mill.
Aye, Ernie and his picking band.
R- And it were hung up. [laughs] Allus there to look at to remind you.
That's it.
R- If you did owt wrong you'd get it.
Aye.
R- Aye, allus hung up in one shop.
Would you say that your parents were too severe with you?
R- No. Not looking back, no.
(900)
Although some of us mates, they got to play out after dark and all that. We never did, we’d to be in.
No. That's it aye. Well my kids have never played out after dark. And of course there you are, I might be old fashioned but I don't see anything wrong with that.
R- No.
Did anybody say grace when you were having meals?
R- No.
Did you have family prayers at home?
R- No not family prayers no, but when we were going to bed we’d to say us prayers.
Aye.
R- Well, just like ‘Our Father’.
Aye. That ud be your mother?
Yes aye. If you had a...
R- And if it were cold weather we’d to say 'em knelt on the hearth.
Oh in front of the fire.
R- Aye.
Well that were looking after you. If you had a birthday, were it any different, you know, did you get presents or a party or owt?
R- No just got a penny for every year.
Aye.
R - Aye. When you were five you got fivepence, sixpence at six.
Oh well. That's not so bad. How did you spend Christmas? What did you do Christmas Day.
R - Well we used to look at us presents. We allus got a bit of sommat and if it were snowing we’d be outside and if it were frosty we’d be out or if it were reasonable at all me father ud happen take us for a walk.
Aye.
(950)
R - Until we got a bit older and then we’d to start going to Church.
Yes.
R- We used to go to Sunday School regular and then we’d to start going to Church as we got as bit older.
Would you say, in your young days, round about that time, that there was more went on at Christmas than Easter or the other way round?
R- Oh I think there were more at Christmas.
Yes. How about Easter? Can you ever remember anything about pace eggs, anything like that, have you ever come across that?
[The ancient Lancashire custom of ‘pace-egging’, once widespread, is still to be found in some parts of the UK. ‘Pace’ comes from pasch , Old English meaning ‘Easter’. Pace-eggs are eggs specially decorated for the festival. Usually they are wrapped in onion-skins and boiled; this gives a golden, mottled effect to the shells. Decorating eggs in this way is a centuries old Easter custom. The Wordsworth Museum at Grasmere in the Lake District houses a collection of highly ornate eggs, originally made for the poet’s children.]
Did you ever go rolling eggs you know, dyeing eggs and rolling them?
R- We used to dye 'em.
Yes.
R - And just for the fun of things we used to go and roll 'em about but we never used to go so far, just across up there in the fields and we used to roll 'em down.
That's it, never like an organised event.
R – No.
No.
SCG/11 April 2003
8,258 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/05
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 12TH OF OCTOBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Right we're away Fred but just before we start this week I’ll tell you what the job is down there now, things are beginning to get a bit plainer, Now for anybody that's listening to this tape, I should remind you that Fred did work with us. Fred was tackling down at Bancroft but because he was beyond retirement age, as soon as we got so that the work was going down, Fred was the first to get the bullet. What they’re doing anyway Fred, they’re going all out for a quick finish..
R - Aye...
Aye they’re putting weaving out to Bemden’s. You know Bemden’s have been on short time, they’re filling their looms up.
R - Aye,
And I think meself, and I only heard this week, that Rushworths have backed out of tendering for the scrapping. Because what they've done you know, Boardman's like, the gaffers, they've put a completion date on the scrapping. I don't know what it is yet, I can’t find out but I will get to find out. They’ve put a completion date on the scrapping and Rushworths wouldn't take it on because they couldn’t guarantee to complete in that time.
R - No
So it's left now between two blokes. One's a fella called Blackburn, a scrap chap from over Colne way and the other one's Ashby's at the foundry, well if they get it Gibson’s will do the scrapping I think.
R – Yes.
And I think what they’re after is to weave out by about December, the lot and scrap before Christmas.
R- Aye, oh...
So quick. I’m sure they’re in for a quick job. If not completely clearing the place I think what they want to do is smash the engine before Christmas to stop any preservation moves or owt like that. You understand what I mean.
R- Aye, yes. What a job isn't it,
Aye, well you can just imagine what we feel like you know. I mean, somebody come in today, they said “Eh, the brass work isn't reight shiny.” I said would you be using bloody Brasso on something that was going to be smashed up?
R- Aye.
I said “I'll tell you what it is. “You must be a glutton for punishment!”
R- Aye. It’s no used polishing nowt and wasting money now is it.
I said “I'll tell you what it is, all the heart’s gone out of the job now. Never mind heart and sentiment. I'll keep it looking tidy but if anybody thinks I’m going to start decorating before they smash it up, they’re mistaken!”
R - Aye.
Just for folk to come in that's never taken interest in their lives before. I'll tell you, it's getting a bit depressing working down there.
R - Mm...
But what can you do?
R- Hey, aye.
I never thought it ud effect me like that you know, but it is.
R - And is it Boardman’s that's closing it down or is it the new firm Stanley, do you know?
Well you see it's still Boardman's. I mean the fact that this new investment company have taken over, you know, have bought the controlling interest in the shares, makes no difference to the fact that the firm is actually still Boardman International.
(50)
R - Boardman International aye.
And they tell me that the great white chief, or the great coffee coloured chief, is coming round tomorrow and as soon as I heard I rang Newton Pickles up, I says come up and run this engine from dinner time. I said I don't want to be here. I said I don't want 'em to see me. I said you just reckon that you're the engine tenter, if they ask you any questions tell 'em that I've gone away, I'm after a fresh job. Because they can’t say anything about that. I mean I’m paying Newton you see, I mean actually they ought to be paying Newton while I go off. Actually what I'm doing tomorrow is going off to Nelson College to sign up for University next year. And it’s time the forms were in you see but I don't want to see them. I don’t want to see anyone, but I think they've got a bit of a bloody cheek you know. Closing the shop down and then coming and visiting it.
R- aye, it looks bad doesn’t it.
Do you think you would though. If you'd just closed something down and chucked fifty people out of work, do you think you'd come round to have a good gloat, eh?
R - It's just typical isn't it of some of 'em.
Did you hear about Jim’s golden hand shake?
R – Oh, that reference.
Aye.
R - Aye.
Bloody reference eh. You know what Birtles said to him? He said “You're the only one that's getting one of these, you know.” And he give him this envelope and Jim though eh bloody hell, he thought hundred quid.
R - Aye, you would do.
(5 mins)
You know, aye. He opened it up and it were a reference. Aye, sixty three year old, and they give him a reference after forty three years.
R - Now his age is going against him for employment you know. But they’re just short of them sort of fellas like him aren’t they.
Course they are.
R- Really, but it isn't much good is it at his age to go into a job.
But I mean the thing is, you know yourself, Jim could get a job anywhere drawing. I mean he can draw owt. I mean that is that fellas job. I mean he can draw like Mohammad Ally can box.
R- That's it, aye.
I mean he’s just one of the loomers of all time is Jim, he must be.
R- Aye that's it aye. He wouldn't know what ailed him if he got to a straight forward shop would he.
No.
R - Looming one after an other.
Biggest laugh is you know, he could make more bloody money looming than he could working there for them. I mean you reckon up the number of warps he can do in a day if he's left alone.
R- Aye, aye.
And I laughed at him you know. He says he told Birtles I Just want you to remember one thing, that bloody drawing frame up there mine he says, I had it given and when I finish I'm taking it home, and I'm going to put it in me garage. And he is an all, he wants me to give him a hand to flit it. He's taking the drawing frame with him.
R- Good lad Jim.
Aye and all the rods.
R- Aye hooks and lot.
All the rods, hooks, wedges. All the bloody lot, aye he says “I’m taking them all home wi’ me.” I says “Tha wants to take a warp and a few sets of healds and reeds and keep looming it up and cutting it out and looming it up and cutting it out. Just to keep yourself in practice.
(100)
R - Aye.
Aye, so those are the latest developments at Bancroft Fred. You know as much as I do. Oh, and they’re asking sixty thousand pounds for the building.
R- Aye.
Aye, course the lower orders aren’t supposed to know that but I have friends in ... other places and...
R- Aye, they get to know.
And that's what it is. Sixty thousand, that's the asking price and it's too much. The men that know tell me it's too much.
R- Aye.
Aye well, the floors going to cost hundred and twenty thousand, in the shed, just for a kick off.
R - Aye.
Well, back to the nitty gritty of recording. No musical instruments and no singing. Games in the house, regular newspaper. Sunday paper, that were the Sunday Chronicle weren’t it?
R- Sunday Chronicle, yes.
That’s it aye. Can you ever remember your mother having a magazine, a women’s magazine or anything like that.
R- Yes she used to get one what they call Red Letter.
Aye, that's it.
R- That's an old un.
Romances weren’t they? That's it, stories.
R- Knitting patterns and that sort of thing in.
Yes that's it aye. Red Letter aye. You know I don't know but I think that's still going. I think it's still going. Did any of the family belong to a library Fred?
R- No.
Can you remember any books about the house you know, were there any books about the house?
R- Oh we’d a good supply of books.
Yes, where did they come from then Fred?
R- They were mostly prizes from Sunday School.
That's it.
R- And there were also me mother's prizes from Sunday school.
Yes it used to be same in our house. And what sort of books were they Fred?
R- Well they were Robinson Crusoe, Rip van Winkle.
Aye.
R- I can’t remember all the names now Stanley, although I still had a lot of books up to about twelve months since and my granddaughter came. They wanted some books for school and they were to send away somewhere and wife let 'em take a lot of these books of mine which they might do somebody a lot of good. They were stuck in a box upstairs. The youngsters had read 'em all, you know, what were suitable for their reading while they were here, so.
Some of the ones I can remember were things like, what was it? Christie’s Old Organ and Winter's Folly oh they were all me mothers prizes. And then I used to get prizes at school an all but I don't think they seem to go to Sunday School the same now do they.
R- No they don’t.
I mean there used to be prizes at Sunday School every year you know.
R- Yes, aye. I used to be really proud of them. First and Special I never missed you know. Twelve month and never missed.
(150)
That's it.
R- They were going back to about 1915 some of 'em.
Aye, aye, aye it's a pity.
R- And then as we got older you know we got on to other stuff, David Copperfield and a few of them.
(10 mins)
Aye. Did you ever go out and actually buy any books Fred? Did you ever go out and buy a book.
R- No. Well like we never really had any money to buy any wi’.
Aye. Was there anybody In your family that couldn’t read or write?
R- Only me grandfather Inman, he couldn't write, I don't think he could read. But he couldn't write, definitely he couldn't.
Aye. He were the journeyman weren’t he. He were a labourer that's it.
R- But they were them sort of folk that could estimate in their head like.
Aye.
R- How many stones they'd want and how much mortar they'd want for putting buildings up but he allus had to get somebody to write a letter. If he were writing to me father like, he got somebody else to write it.
Aye.
R- He were living at Burnley and he’d happen send a letter. In them days you know they'd post it at happen on Thursday night and it would be here at Friday morning, that he were coming at Saturday and that were it, he were coming. And me father had a bit of a shooting right down at Elslack and he used to go and his father used to like to come down and go wi’ him. And he’d be, I think he said that he were about twenty five.
Your father.
R- Aye, when his father started coming, he didn't know much about him because he’d buggered off when they were young.
Yes that’s it.
R- You know, as soon as they could do a bit of work and he must have got in touch and he started coming, and me father says he rolled a bit of twist up and lit his clay pipe. So he says, “I rolled a bit of baccy up and I lit me pipe and he says, “Just put that out and be thee age!” And he says I were twenty five and wed! Aye.
Is that reight.
R- Put it out and be thee age, and he said give ower. He said “Tha’rt not smoking in front of me!” And that were it.
God and that were at twenty five year old!
R- Aye, th’art not smoking in front of me.
They had their own ideas didn't they Fred?
R- Oh they did that aye.
They ruddy well did. Did you know anybody else, you know, like any of your mates or anybody that you worked with when you were younger couldn't read or write.
R- No.
Did you have any toys that you could remember? Any toys that stick in your mind, you know.
(200)
R- Aye. One on 'em were a rocking horse. And it weren’t just a piece of wood, it were shaped like a rocking horse and it had, I don't know what it would be made out on, but it were just like a horse’s mane. You know, with hair on and all that. A long bushy tail. Reins on and everything and all harness on.
Were it on rockers or were it on a stand?
R- On rockers.
On rockers, aye.
R- It were one of them like, if you got too far you used to tipple ower.
Aye.
R- You'd go reight ower the top.
That's it aye. Bye god that ud be worth a bob or two to-day.
R- That were worth a bob, a lot of money. Like we got it at Christmas but me brother never seemed to take a fancy to it, it were for the two of us to join at but he were never interested in animals.
Aye.
R- We didn't know, we thought Santa Claus had fetched it you know, until we got old enough. Then me father told us that somebody had ordered this horse at Christmas, for Christmas and they were supposed to collect it a day or two afore. And when the fella at the shop asked 'em about it, oh, they said we aren’t interested, well he’d actually bought it you know.
Aye.
R- And in them days you couldn't afford to have these things because you couldn't sell it again till the Christmas after.
Aye.
R- And me father more on less got it at cost price. That were why we got that. And then as we got a bit older we got Meccano. We’d start off with a number 0 and then the year after you'd get 0-A or sommat. It made it into No 1 then.
Yes, that’s right.
R- Then if you had a penny or two pence to spare you used to go and buy some little nuts and bolts what you kept losing.
Aye that’s it.
R- And I thought a lot about me Meccano. I allus seemed to be a bit mechanical minded and eventually I got me brother’s off him an all. We both had one apiece and he weren’t much interested. I could make a lot of big models then wi’ having two and I think we got up to about a number two each so I'd a fair lot of stuff. And I’ve had some of it up to about five years since. And I let one of me relations have some on 'em. And I've still some bits and bats knocking about.
(15 mins)
I used to have a Meccano.
R- Aye. I think they were a good thing you know.
Aye, I’ll tell you how keen I was on Meccano. Can you remember that advert they used to have, that big block setting crane. Remember that advert? I'd enough Meccano to build that.
R- Aye?
Because I started off, I think me dad must have been flush or sommat, he must have won some money on a horse or some bloody thing so one Christmas he bought me brand new, a number 10. [I was wrong here, it was second-hand]
R- Aye. [Fred laughs]
I’d had a, I think it were a No.1 and he’d seen how I'd come on with it you know. I kept buying bits and I don't know, he must have had a funny turn because in them days I think they cost about. fourteen or fifteen quid or sommat, I think they were.
R- Yes they were a lot of money.
And he bought me a number ten Meccano. And when he bought me this number ten that weren’t big enough. I sent off for plans for this block setting crane. And I remember it took me about three or four weeks to work out all the stuff that I needed for this crane and I said I want some more stuff. And he said what for, what are you going to build like? 'Cause he were an engineer. I said “This.” And he looked and I remember what he said; “Good God! Will you have a do at building that?” I said yes and he said alright and went out and got the stuff.
R- Aye well...
And I built it.
R- That were standard on the advert weren’t it.
Yes, you could get plans for that.
R- Aye.
And it took like about one and half number tens and then some more stuff and all. But I didn't put any of electric motors in it I did it all be hand. He said that were going it a bit too far,
R- I had one of them clock work motors.
Aye, yes. Oh I used to like me Meccano, I made all sorts.
R- Oh I’ve spent hours and hours.
Aye, I can still remember models I made you know. The first thing I ever made were steam roller, a big steam roller.
R- Aye.
And I were allus one for big ones. I weren’t interested in little uns. It had to be big, and cranes, oh god, I've made any sort of crane there were.
R- Aye.
And this block setting crane it were a big thing you know. Oh they got fed up of this thing in the corner of the lounge.
R- Aye.
I were at it every night you know, a bit more and then you'd find you'd made a mistake and you had to go back and start again wi’ part of it. But I'll tell you what it is, they were the finest instructional toy ever I think.
R- They were. Well we had an old fashioned table, it had a, you know you could lift leaves ower you know.
That's it aye.
R- And they allus had a fancy table cloth to cover it, because there were only like oil cloth on the table or sommat like that. Well I used to put me crane on you know, and hoist things up off the floor and swivel it round. Well I allus had to hold it like that so, I daren't have done it meself, but me father got two screw nails and screwed it through into the table.
Aye?
R- And then, you know, I'd two hands free then, it couldn't tipple ower.
Aye, aye.
R- And after that, I used to put screws in meself and fasten it on to the table meself. I'd to put 'em into the same holes of course, like I hadn't to mess the table up. And I can remember me mother saying
(300)
“You're not going to screw that on there are you?” He says, “It's all reight. Cover it up wi’ the cloth when he takes it off.” Well it were a real do you know, wind 'em reight up wi’ me little motor and I had it geared to take, you know, more weight than what.
Aye.
R- Sometimes you'd to wind the motor up twice before you'd get it up to the top you know.
That's it, wind the motor up a bit.
R- And I do think, as you say, they were a wonderful toy.
Oh they were a great thing for teaching you. I learnt all I know about stresses in girders from a Meccano. Building bridges, seeing how much weight it ud take before it started to sag in the middle.
R- Aye.
Because it were amazing what you could do with 'em.
R- Oh they were good little girders, weren’t they.
Oh aye. I once built a warren truss you know, like them, an old fashioned warren truss like there is over a tape room. I once built one of them that you could stand on.
R- Aye.
'Cause I said to me dad one day, I said “Do you think if I set to with me Meccano I could make a Warren Truss that I could stand on?” He said, “Yes, if you make it right.” And he spent hours with me making sure that I knew the difference between tension members and compression members. He said “Make all your tension members with strip and your compression members with box section. Make it up, make two girders up into box section, two angles up into box section and use them. Keep 'em all bolted up well together and it’ll work if you do it that way.”
(20 mins)
R- Aye.
And I had to build it double in the finish but I could stand on it in the finish.
R- Aye. Oh give 'em to some of them today and they don't bother no. They aren’t interested in it a lot of 'em.
Well I mean, look what happened to Meccano, Meccano’s just about gone out, I don't know where you can still buy it. Anyway, and they tell me a lot of it's plastic now.
R- Yes it is aye. They aren’t metal.
Aye it all used to be....
R- Metal, nickel plated....
[It strikes me as I transcribe this that people might wonder why these two blokes were going on at some length about a child’s toy. Meccano was a wonderful fascinating toy and I often think that the engineering industry lost one of its best recruiting agents when they stopped making it. Believe me, it was addictive!]
Stoved enamel and nickel plated, aye. That's it aye. Anyway... what did your mother do if she had any spare time in house Fred?
R- Well, either knitting or making rugs, peg rugs.
Peg rugs aye. How about tatting?
R- No, she were no tatter and no crochet.
Aye.
R- All knitting and happen, you know, making clothes.
Aye. If your father had a bit of spare time did he, would he do anything?
R- No he didn't do a reight lot of anything in the house, but he allus
(350)
had his gardening you know.
Yes.
R - In winter time he used to play wi’ us a bit happen wi’ Meccano and happen do a bit of writing or teaching you to spell and that sort of thing. To say they’d never had any education much they were fairly well self educated as regards writing. He were a beautiful writer.
Aye, where did you father go to school Fred, do you know?
R - Most of his time ud be at Keighley I think.
Aye.
R- And you know, I've seen him writing and lovely letters and then he says “Lizzy, how do they spell this?” You know he’d come across a word he wouldn't be able to spell.
Aye.
R- Me mother would say “I’ll write it down and then you can copy it.” ‘Cause me mother were a good scholar.
Aye.
R- As regards spelling, but she couldn't write as good as me dad, and she'd been educated had me mother to standard [five] in them days you know.
That's it. What time did you get up in the morning when you were at school?
R- Oh half past seven.
What time did you go to bed?
Oh in winter time, seven o'clock, aye. [Fred laughs]
Yes.
R- In summer time eight o'clock.
Did you have any pets?
R- We allus had a dog and a rabbit or two.
What sort of a dog?
R- Well it were me father's dog, like it 'ud be a gun dog of some description.
Did your father or your mother smoke?
R- Me father smoked, me mother never did. Oh it were a terrible thing for a woman to smoke.
And yet you’ll see photographs in old days of older woman especially smoking a clay pipe.
R- Yes you did.
Did you know anybody that smoked? You know, any woman that smoked?
R- Yes, aye.
What did they smoke?
R- I knew one woman that smoked a clay pipe.
Aye.
R- You used to see her sat in her door as you say, you know when you were going past and she'd be puffing away on her clay pipe.
Aye. Now about gambling. Anybody in the family gamble?
R- Well me father ud have a three penny bet now and again or a tanner bet.
Aye.
R- No pounds or owt of that.
Where would, If he had a bet in Earby then, because there were no street licensed bookies like or owt like that, where would you put a bet on?
R- Well you know, these runners what there were.
(400)
That's it, bookies runners aye.
R- Aye there were allus one in the mill or in clubs.
Aye.
R- And I don't know, he got a tip or sommat off one of his cousins. He were a game keeper were his cousin and I don't think he knew owt about horses. And he must have told me father about this tip. There must have been some gentry up or sommat you know shooting, and they must have been throwing this tip about. And they called it Charlie’s Mount, I allus remember and it won the Cesarewitch and I think it were hundred to one outsider and it were coupled with another horse and they both came up. And it were very hush hush at home like but we knew me father had won some money 'cause he bought me a pair of new boots, Beaver boots.
Aye they were good boots them.
R- Them were good boots 'cause he allus had a pair of Beavers for when he were going out into the fields and I’d started going wi’ him a lot you know. So he bought me a pair an all out of this winnings. He’d about hundred pound to come or sommat like that wi’ this double.
Aye, Christ, it were the price of a house in them days.
R- It were a fortune you know were that, and anyway he’d telled one or two of his mates and they'd all had a good do on it you know. There were about happen three tacklers then and they’d had a do on it and they more or less cleared this bookie out.
(25 mins)
Aye.
R- He were only like a threepence and a tanner bookie.
Aye. Who were that then, who were the bookie? Do you know?
R- No. But there were a fella called Tom Waddington and it might have been him.
Aye. You know it reminds me of a very similar thing to that. When I were working at West Marton, this isn't all that long ago, on tankers. There were a fella there called Harry Robinson, oh and he were a beggar for horses. Allus backing horses you know and always studying form, racing page, this that and t’other and he used to go and do a bit of fishing each weekend somewhere up the Lune Valley. I don't know where it were, he lived up at Ingleton. And he got to the stage where he was going regularly with this fella who was a
(450)
trainer up at Leyburn. And every now and again this fella would give him a tip and
I never backed horses at all. I did once ... I used to back 'em a fair bit and then once I backed a horse and I won a fair bit of money and I said that was last time I’d ever back a horse. I said I'd be one of the few people in the country that were in front of bookies.
R- Aye.
And funnily enough that were the Cesarewitch. Well this is another story, but I won this money and the bookie [Tommy Fitton] said I were dead lucky, and I were drunk that night and I said I’ll tell you what to do, pick me a second favourite for tomorrow but tell me what it is now. And he looked in the evening paper for runners for the following day and he picked out a second favourite. I said reight, put it all on that one to win. I got three hundred and odd quid when it won. He wanted to pay me in the pub and I wouldn’t let him. I said no, I’ll call for it and I put it straight in the bank. I didn't spend a halfpenny of it.
R- No.
Anyway this Harry Robinson were going wi’ this bloke and he kept giving him these horses and these horses actually were fixed. They must have been because every one he give him won, every one, it was like a dream come true. And you know, you kept saying to him how are you going on Harry, how did you go on this week and he used to tell us what they were you know. When he got 'em he used to say back this one it's another one off matey. Well, one or two of 'em had a bit of a do, you know, but not so much. And it finished up the man had given thirteen horses on the trot and they were all winners bar one and he were told don't back that one if it's raining. Don’t back it if the going’s wet. And it were Christmas and I were coming from Halifax. Harry Robinson had a habit of calling in at Denholme Gate pub in between Halifax and
(500)
Keighley on his way down to West Marton wi’ skim from Halifax. Well, on his way to Settle wi’ skim like. And I called in there one Christmas, it were a reight cold day, and I called in for a whisky, I were frozen because there were no heater in the wagon. And I called in for a whisky and the landlord says “You’re one of Harry's mates aren’t you?” I said “Aye.” He says “Are you going back to West Marton?” It were Christmas day. I said Aye, I’m going back there now. And then I've finished for the day.” That's why I was frozen, the tank were empty, there were no load on you know, I had no weight. And he says “Will you take him something for me, will you be seeing him?” I said “Aye, because he's behind me.” He were saying will he be calling in. I said I doubt it, he'll be wanting to get home.” He says, “Well, will you see him?” I said “I'm sure to see him.” See like he weren’t sure of him calling in but he knew I’d see him at the far end. He said “Give him this.” It were a case of whisky, either Long John or Queen Anne, I forget which. I said “Bloody hell, he’s clicked hasn’t he?” He said Oh, you know them horses he’s been getting? He said I’ve backed every one, I’ve made £8,000.
R- Aye?
Anyway, I got back and I give him this case of whisky and he never give me a bottle, I thought he might have done but I says to him, “Thee mate’s done alright out of t’job.” I said “How have you gone on?” He says “Oh, the trouble is I’ve been backing others.” I said, “I'll tell you what it is, you reckon to be a gambler, it's time you give up!”
R - Aye,
I said “If a fella can have thirteen bloody winners given him on trot and he still needs to back horses, it isn't money he's after, it’s just gambling.”.
R- Gambling aye.
(30 mins)
“So you want to give up.” Anyway he never did. Anyway, there you are, gambling. Can you remember when the family had it's first radio, first wireless, can you remember?
R- Our family'?
Yes.
R- Aye. [Laughs] We never had one at home. I bought one soon after I were wed, a second hand one. I got wed in 1932 and about 1933 I bought one and it were wi’ the old wet battery you know.
Aye.
R- And it were a Cossor and I gave four pound for it and it were just like new and I had it when I lived in the cottage. I lived in a cottage reight up on the tops and when I flit lower down
(550)
they had electric in, so I got a new one, electric. And me father had no electric in where he lived, so I give him this Cossor and when he got electric in...It were Jack Ellison that put it in for him and he said what are you going to do wi’ the old wireless. Well, he said, I'm going to get shut on it and get electric. He says, well I’ll tell you what I’ll do, if you get one off me I’ll allow you four pound ten for the old un. So he says, righto. I went up one night and he’d getten this new His Master’s Voice and he says I get four pound ten knocked off and he's taken th’old un wi’ him, so he says, you can have the four pound ten. ‘Cause it were my wireless to start wi’.
Aye.
R- So we did very well out of that wireless. Aye.
R- And there were do doubt, them batteries, they were sweet and there were no interference on 'em, because when you started on electric you got a lot of interference at beginning didn't you, crackling. They've overcome it now but it were bad in them days.
No, battery sets actually were better than the first mains sets you reckon.
R- Oh yes a lot better. Aye, aye.
R- Aye, I used to go up and I used to listen to th’old Cossor and I’d left me own at home and I thought eh, he’s getten the best set.
Aye. How about if you were playing outside. If you'd gone out to play outside, where did you usually play?
R- Up back street. Up back street aye.
What sort of games did you play?
R- Well, it were mostly tig or tin in ring. Whip and top you know, hide and seek.
Yes.
R- Them were the most popular games. Then if we managed to get a ball we used to go into the old Grammar School yard. Well it were a gentleman's club and they used to shift us out.
(600)
They were frightened of us looking through window and seeing ‘em gambling I think.
Aye.
R- We used to have to get us playing in afore they started coming at about half past seven at night, course it were going to bed time then.
Yes. When you say gentleman's club, who'd be the sort of people that ud be attending that club?
R- Business people and manufacturers.
Aye, that's it aye.
R- They called it gentleman's club and it were in the grammar school, they took it over did this club...
Aye.
R- When it were empty.
Aye.
R- There were a billiard table in you know there. I believe there were some fair good billiard players went to it in them days.
Mm. Who did you play with?
R- Well, there were a lad up back street, actually we’d gone mates ever since we could remember one another, since we were, we grew up together.
Yes.
R- And then his father were a piano player. And he got playing at one of the cinemas in Nelson and they flit to Nelson and then it got from one thing to the other while this lad and his mother came back to Earby to live wi’ his aunty up the same back street. They’d parted had the father and mother and the father never came back any more and we went mates up to him dying. There weren’t so many gone mates as long as him and me.
Who ware that Fred?
R- They called him Haydn Hargreaves. He lived in Barlick for a while but he used to come down to Earby and I used to go to Barlick.
It’s funny, Haydn that's the composer isn't it like. His father a musician.
R- Aye well, that ud be it, aye.
Aye that's it. Aye, and how old were he when he died?
(650)
R- Sixty four.
That’s a lot of years isn’t it.
R- We’d biked together you know, gone on bikes. He got a bike and I'd a bike, we travelled all ower when we got a bit older.
What sort of bike were it Fred?
(35 mins)
R- I had, I allus had to save a bit of sommat you know when I started work, penny in the shilling. I used to earn twenty four shilling, [so I got] twenty four pence. I went to call at the Co-op bank, put sixpence in when we were coming home.
Aye.
R- If we managed to save another three pence or fourpence or sommat like that you know. Put it into the bank and I’d about ten pound in and I think it were twelve pound were this bike and I drew eight pound out and me father put t’other to and I got a bike and me brother got a bike and me father had a bike. In fact me father had a bike when there weren’t a reight lot of folk had a bike. There were just odd uns. And they used to set off at weekend, well at Saturdays and Sundays, Saturday afternoon when he weren’t gardening. They thought they'd done sommat if they went to Morecambe and stopped two or three days and then biked it back
Well, they had hadn't they.
R - Aye on them roads in them days.
Yes, aye.
R- And then when we started you know, at sixteen and seventeen year old, we were going to Morecambe and back in the day.
Aye.
R- And Blackpool and back.
Yes.
(700)
R - In fact we went one time did Haydn and me, it were July holidays, we’d be about sixteen. He were sixteen on the twelfth of July and I were, my birthday were December you know, there weren’t much in us. And we went to Morecambe and stopped all night. 3/6d. Tea, bed and breakfast and then we went to, what do they call it, Conder Green over Cockerham Marsh, Pilling Sands to Blackpool. Stopped all night at Blackpool and then came home day after, well we'd had a marvellous holiday.
Aye.
R- July holidays. But me brother were the keenest cyclist, he did do a lot of biking.
Did he join a cycle club?
R- Yes he were In that, C.T.C. and eh, what were t’other? Clarion.
Were he? Narthen what year were this roughly?
R- Well he’d be about sixteen.
What year were he born?
R - 1906.
1922. Clarion, you know what the start of the Clarion was do you?
R- Aye. It were a Socialist movement weren’t it.
That's it. Tell me what you know about that Fred, tell me what you know about that. Very interesting that because there aren’t many people know anything about this.
R - Well it were like a fellowship and a fella at Barlick were the main man old Pop Hill they called him and there's a seat now going out of Bracewell...
There is.
R- And he were the instigator round here and there were Clarion Houses, were there one at Ribchester? One out of Colne? I don't remember 'em all. ‘Cause me brother used to go. And you could get a big pot of tea for about tuppence (two pence) and you could stop all t’night for about a shilling and there were ladies, they weren’t just fellas like. But they were mixed company. But they had a hand book and I can allus remember this hand book what me brother had and there were the Red Flag in it you know.
Aye.
R- All the words for the Red Flag and I think I've heard him say at night, when they were all gathered in, you know, and they were talking and then they'd sing the Red Flag. It were a real Socialism.
Yes.
R- It were a real Socialist friendly society which ud happen be a good do if there were some today what were the same like. They weren’t hot headed or owt of that, it were helping one another.
Would It surprise you to know that there's still one of the Clarion houses left?
R- At Colne.
At Dimpenley behind Roughlee
(40 mins)
R- Aye?
Aye it's still there. And you can go there on a Sunday and it's staffed wi’ volunteer's and you can go in there and get a big pint pot of tea and a chocolate biscuit for about five or six pence.
R- Aye.
And you can sit there under a picture of Kier Hardie and enjoy your pot of tea. It's still there. A wooden hut, Clarion House. [still going in 2013]
R- Aye well, it must have been all right in me fathers ideas ‘cause he never said owt about him.
Yes, well the start of the Clarion actually, as I understand it, there was a paper, a socialist paper brought out by a fella called Blatchford.
R- Blatchford aye.
(800)
That's it and it were called The Clarion.
R- Aye.
And none of these, when they originally brought it out, none of these, of course these newspaper distributors were, they'd all be red hot Tory you see and they wouldn't distribute this paper. And, as I understand it the Clarion cycle clubs were formed to distribute the Clarion paper because it was the only way they could get it distributed you see to the people that wanted to buy it. And from that sprang what they call the Clarion movement and that's why you'll still find in a lot of towns, you'll find that the local cycling club is still called The Clarion. Even though now there’s nothing but a cycling club.
R- Yes.
The roots of it go back to the start of the socialist movement in 1885-1890. That's where the roots go back to, and it's very interesting that 'cause there's very few people will know anything about that now.
R- Well I’d forgot most on it but I know me brother were very keen. And me father ud say, “Where you going today?” “Oh I'm going wi’ the Clarion.”
Aye.
R- And then another time, “I'm going wi’ the C.T.C.” I think it were, they come from Nelson somewhere did C.T.C.
Yes.
R- Cyclists Touring Club.
That's it aye, the winged wheel, aye.
R - They had their badges and that sort of thing.
That's it yes. Did you ever go out collecting berries, you know, blackberries or picking or...
R- We used to get blackberries and Whinberries up on the moor.
Aye, bilberries aye. What did you do with them when you collected them?
R- Me mother used to bake pies wi’ it.
That's it.
R- Happen make some jam, a bit of jam.
Aye. One of my lasses, every year when bilberries are on, she did it about three years ago the first time, the youngest one. She, and I were reight suited first time I saw her do it. She went out, picked some bilberries, come back, made some pastry, made a pie and sat down and ate the bloody thing all on her own!
R- Aye. Good. [Fred laughs]
And they were all playing hell because she wouldn't give ‘em any. I said she's just doing exactly right.
R- Go and get some eh?
I said that's just the way to do it. I said the only thing I’m worried about is in case she makes herself sick. Because by God it were a big pie, but she ate the lot.
R- [Fred laughs]
She made some custard an all. She says I don’t want any dinner, I’m going to have this. It were a Sunday and I said “You've just done right Janet. You're alright.”
R- Weren’t it stained if it got on to the table cloth or owt.
Aye.
R- It were terrible for staining weren’t it.
Aye. It ud make good dye wouldn't it.
Anyone in the family go fishing?
R- No.
No. Your father were a shooting man like weren’t he.
R- That’s it. Aye, ferret and...
Aye. What did he do wi’ owt he got, you know? You know anything he got were it for the pot?
R- Oh, he nearly allus had customers waiting for rabbits and that sort of thing..
Aye.
R- ‘Cause they made a good meal for folk didn't they? I can remember coming home, we’d been, you know, walked to Elslack and come back and it's been dark when we've got back. And it's take Mother Hacking this rabbit up. That were a woman that used to work under him and she lived up by the station. And I used to get this rabbit, he used to lap [wrap] it in paper. “Now don't let any dogs get it.”
Aye.
R- And I used to go. It were a shilling for a rabbit and I allus used to get a penny off her for taking it up. That were a good do.
Aye.
R- Although I’d been walking round you know and I weren’t so old, happen nine or ten year old and then I'd trail up there but I used to get a penny.
Aye.
R- And there were one or two, they'd happen see him setting off like. “If tha gets one, let me have one.” And in fact there were a farmer at Booth Bridge, and we had to go past Booth Bridge and she used to shout out, “Think on if tha gets one or two, leave me one.”
Who were that Vince Wilkinson?
R- Eh, what did they call 'em? Not Louis, no it were long afore Louis, eh I know the name well enough. Anyway he weren’t getting rabbits on her land, he were getting 'em a bit further ower.
Aye.
R- She'd allus have one, a shilling.
Ernie were brought up on rabbits just about you know. Have I told you about Fred and the gun.
R- Aye and the gun.
Aye and ball bearings. Aye.
(950)
(45 mins.)
R- But I’ve seen, when we used to come home me mother ud have the tea ready but the first thing me dad ever did, he cleaned the gun.
Aye.
R- That were cleaned afore he had his tea.
That's it. Aye.
R- And put away. And I can remember, we had some drawers in a recess, and one drawer it had a lock on, and that were where he kept his cartridges. He kept the key in his pocket.
Aye.
R- Nobody could get in there. Which you know, we’d more sense than do it but probably if some of us mates ud have been in they might have been tempted to pinch one or sommat like that.
Aye, well you want to get Ernie to tell you about laiking about wi’ the powder flask and blowing the bloody kitchen up.
R- [Fred laughs] Aye, dangerous stuff.
‘Cause that's what he did at home. He blew the kitchen up and it's a wonder he didn't kill his self.
(977)
SCG/12 April 2003
8,093 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/06
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 12TH OF OCTOBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
And we're carrying straight on from the last tape. Now you were going to tell me about Bancrofts, you were on about Bancrofts.
R- Yes, well Bancrofts were....
That were the name of farmers at Booth Bridge at Thornton that you couldn’t think of.
R- Yes and he also had two brothers and I think there’d be two sisters at Brown House. Brown house were a very big farm and we used to go down there. They always had some geese at Christmas down at Brown House and somebody mentioned it to me, asked me whether I knew where they could get a goose. So we walked down to Brown House, went to know if they had any to spare and they had two. So me father says well, so and so wants one. And then he came back and he says you're all reight, they have a goose for you down at Brown House. Then someone else says, I wish I’d known, I could have done with one. Well he says, there’s another one, he has two. There were no telephones nor owt of that you know so we walked down again, 1 think we walked down in moonlight or sommat like that at night. I were only ?, we weren’t reight big. And then at Christmas time me father went down and I can remember, we didn't go, but he carried 'em up in one of them big butter baskets what they used to have.
Aye. A wicker basket.
R - Carried these home. Aye, fetched them home, delivered 'em and then we’d happen broken up for Christmas. We’ll say Christmas were at Saturday, we had Friday off school and we’d to take this basket back had me brother and me. And when we got there, I’ll allus remember it. She were baking were Miss. Bancroft, Now then, could you eat a mince pie and a glass of milk? She filled us a glass of milk up and mince pie apiece straight out of the oven. We must have relished these mince pies and “Don't you want your milk.” “Oh, yes.” So we just had a sip. “Could you eat another mince pie?” “Yes please.” And we finished up with three mince pies apiece. Well we were as happy as could be! We could hardly get back home to tell me mother like we’d had three mince pies straight out of the oven. And they weren’t little uns you know!
No
R- They were real nudgers. [A nudger is a local name for something big, like a big stone when you are walling.]
Reight pies aye...
R- That big! [Indicates over three inches across.]
Nudgers! [Stanley laughs]
R- And it allus stuck in me mind did that. And I can remember when we were going past one time, quite a while after,. she said Oh, them lads did enjoy them mince pies when they fetched the basket back. Me father says they could hardly get back home fast enough to tell their mother what a good do they’d had! But today, ask a kid to walk to Booth Bridge wi’ an empty basket, not on spec of getting owt.
(50)
Aye.
They says I'm not going down there. I'm not going down there. And we were happy.
Aye, things have changed Fred.
R- Yes changed.
When you look back, you know, you say things have changed. In what way do you think things have changed since you were a lad. You know, the sort of thing that you were talking about.
R- Well I think meself, well you did more as you got told in them days. If your father said you've got to go to Booth Bridge or Brown house, you'd to go to Booth Bridge or Brown House.
Aye.
R- But to-day, “Oh, I’m not going.” or I’ll go on the bus or you know, they wouldn't think of walking the way we used to walk. I've gone down at Saturday morning to Fence End ... big house at Fence End, what do they call it. Proctors lived there then...
Aye now wait a minute. what's the name of it? Wait a minute let's get the name of it. I know the name, t’other side of Thornton there, down the drag you mean.
R - Yes aye.
No, we'll remember it. we'll come to it. We both know the name of it.
(5 mins)
R- Queens Mead now.... They call it that now.
They call it that now but it a different name before then.
[I think the house there was called Fence End. It was called that at the end of the 19th century and was the home of the Rev William Atkinson Wasney.]
R- Oh yes. And me father was pally with the farmer’s man there and he allus had a ferret on.
Aye.
R- And me father allus had a ferret.
This in at Fence End isn’t it?
R- Yes.
Aye.
R- And me father ud say go down to Fence End and fetch that ferret back this morning.
Aye.
R- I'm going out this afternoon.
Who had that farm then, were it Waite?
No, Proctor belonged all the land round there,
Aye.
R- And it were Proctor and Proctor the chartered accountants, that lot.
Oh them from Burnley, aye.
R - And gas works, the gas works man and all. [I think Fred means Captain Smith who Horace Thornton mentioned as living at Thornton and being a major shareholder in the Mill Company and the Earby Gas and Light Company together with his brother in law, Jacques. There was a connection between these two and Proctor and Proctor at Burnley through the management of the Mill Company in Earby.]
Did they own gas works at Earby an all, aye. They're still going that firm you know, they were accountants for the Calf hall Shed Co.
R - Aye and for a lot of mill companies weren't they. Well we used to ... well I walked down on me own all the way to Fence End and fetched the ferret back for me father. Set off about eight o'clock and I didn’t allus get to go wi’ me father. Like you know he’d say you've been far enough this morning 'bout walking down to E1slack again, go to the pictures this afternoon and have a rest he’d say. Somebody else had happen wanted to go wi’ him.
Aye.
(100)
R- And then, same as at Sunday, after t’dinner he’d say we'll take him, his ferret, back. And we used to walk down to Fence End, and take the ferret back and then walk back home.
When you were working ferrets Fred did you line 'em or muzzle 'em or just let 'em go or what?
R- It varied. It varied, sometimes he muzzled 'em but not often.
Aye, did you ever see him line one? Run one on a line?
R- Only time I've seen him run one on a line it were if one were stuck or weren’t coming out. He’d tie some band on another and let it go in.
Yes.
R- That's the only time.
Aye.
R- Sometimes like they used to follow ‘em out didn't they.
Aye.
R- But I've read about these liners, they run 'em on a line didn't they. Pulled 'em out.
I never liked it.
R- No.
I never liked muzzling 'em either. What sort of muzzles did he use? Did he muzzle 'em wi’ band... Or did he use...
R- Band, all band.
Aye. Your father were an out door man weren’t he. Like I mean, if he had any spare time, if he weren’t gardening he’d be out wouldn't he.
R- Out.
And how about your mother, could she ever go out in her spare time, you know if she had any. You know, evenings spare or sommat?
R- She’d happen go to somebody else’s house.
That ud be about it would it?
R- That were it aye.
How about chapel or you know, friendly hour or...
R- No, she didn't go. She’d go to church sometimes if, sometimes at Sunday somebody ud come to visit. If they lived at Kelbrook and they used to come down to our house and then me mother ud go to church wi’ ‘em at night.
Aye they'd go together.
R- But as I was talking about this farmer down at Fence End, it were a regular do, moonlight nights him and his wife ud walk up and his wife ud stop at our house and then me father and him ud go to the Band Club and have an hour or an hour and a half there you know. And then they had to walk back again to Fence End, there were no buses in them days. [The thing here that modern readers might miss here is that it had to be a moonlight night so that they could see there way in the dark to walk home.]
Aye.
R- Aye and they used to enjoy it.
Yes. Would you say that that were fairly common like? You know, fellas going to the pub and the wife stopping at home?
R- Aye. I wouldn’t say me father went out boozing a right lot, like you know, he’d happen have a gill and a game at snooker or some billiards in them days.
Aye.
R - I think it were more or less to get out while me mother got kids to bed and that sort of thing.
Aye. One of the things that strikes me about talking to people of your generation is the way that, you know, women were, they were very much second class citizen's weren’t they.
R - Oh they were.
I don’t think that that’s just an impression. I don't think there's any doubt about that in there, you know.
R- No. They were second class and they were willing to do it. They were willing to be, they didn't know owt any different I don’t think.
That's it, aye, with the way they'd been reared.
R- It were the way they'd been fetched up.
(150) 10 mins.
One of the greatest things about that in other parts of the country, one of the greatest things that made breakdowns in that sort of attitude were the first World War. Because during the first world war a lot of women went out to work who would never have gone out to work otherwise but that didn't really apply up here because I mean women had been weaving since the industry began. But even so, the fact that they were going out to work didn't really liberate them. It didn’t make any difference to their status up here.
R- No. No they were still muggins, aye they were definitely mugs.
Well in some ways even worse because they had the house work to do and the kids to look after.
R- Aye, and go out to work.
Mill an all and many a time look after kids an all.
R- Aye and when you talk about taking youngsters out, it were the woman that had to carry 'em under the shawl and .......
Aye.
R - Taken ‘em and fetched ‘em back again at night. Father didn't, he didn't carry ‘em out, it were allus the mother.
Yes, like if they were going to be nursed like while she were at the mill, aye. There’s a lot to be said for women’s lib. Did your mother and father ever go out together?
R- Oh yes. Pictures. First house at pictures many a time. [There were two performances or ‘houses’ each night. First house was probably six until eight.]
What day were that usually if they went?
R- Saturday.
Fairly regular do.
R- Yes.
Oh, that's not so bad then is it.
R- Or if there were any varieties on or sommat like that they’d go.
Were there anything like that in Earby?
R- Oh yes, aye.
Where at?
R- Empire.
At the picture house.
R- Picture house.
Had they a stage?
R- Oh yes aye. Aye it were a lovely place and there were what they called the Earby Amateur Operatic Society and they used to give a show every year, you know Mikado or Gondoliers and various things.
Aye.
R- And then there were a fella called Johnny Moorhouse, he were a composer. He composed music for brass bands and music for orchestras and he also composed musical comedies. And there have been some real tip top comedies on at the Empire and he's written everything.
And he lived in Earby?
R- Yes. Words and music all through, all been Johnny Moorhouse.
Aye.
R - And these people what used to live at Fence End, me father used to have to make sure, you know, book these tickets for Saturday night and they allus came up at Saturday night. I've seen 'em land up and they've been all, well wet you know. Big umbrella up, happen change their stockings and their shoes when they landed to our house, they'd be wet through.
Aye.
R- Still they enjoyed it. Then he had to have a lamp off one of the carts. You know, if it weren’t reight light..
(200)
Aye, a cart lamp.
R- That were more like for safety I think.
Aye.
R- Like we've gone down there, happen a horse and trap or sommat like that passed you, that's all you've seen.
Aye. Were there any motors about then Fred?
R- No.
When can you remember seeing your first motor?
R- Well, the first motor what came into Earby were at, you know we allus called it Lina, Punch Bowl.
Yes.
R- Somebody called Caswell had it and it were one of them Fords, Tin Lizzy.
Aye a Model T.
R- Mm.
Aye, when were that about, can you remember?
R - It ud be just after the war.
Aye, just after the fourteen war.
R- I wouldn't like to say just what date it were.
Where could he get petrol for that round here then?
R- Well funnily enough there were a shop on Water Street and they called it Frank Wilkinson & Son and he used to sell bicycles and they also sold petrol in tins.
Aye in tins.
R- They had it stored outside in tins. And motor bike's used to pull up you know and get half a gallon or whatever they wanted. They allus had a tin on the side had motor cars in them days. A two gallon tin strapped on side. Some that had got bigger models they had two tins strapped on for chance they were somewhere and they couldn't get any. Get there selves home. That were the first I can remember.
Aye and they all had brass tops didn't they, You can’t remember what sort of petrol it were can you?
R- Pratt's.
Pratt's aye.
(15 mins)
Right so that’s Pratt’s petrol and the first motor. That’s not a bad thing to get on to tape is it?
R- No.
Did you go to church regular?
R- Sunday school.
How about the family, did your dad go to church?
R- Very, very seldom.
Your mother?
R- Aye me mother used to go fairly regularly.
Which one?
R- Church of England, All Saints.
Aye, that's it over the crossings there.
R- But before that there were what they called the ‘tin church’ where Armoride’s is now. There were a tin church there.
When were that church built then? All Saints?
About 1910 or 1911, I think that were it.
Oh aye.
R- When we were young and going to Sunday School it were in the tin church...
(250)
Aye.
R- What they called the new church were there but Sunday school and any social events were all in the tin church. They called it tin church because it were corrugated iron.
Aye, that's it aye. Well where were the church for Earby before the tin church? Which were the old church for Earby?
R- Oh, Thornton.
Thornton.
R- Thornton, Earby were Thornton parish.
Aye...
R- And that tin church were just a handy sort of a do for if it were wet and that.
That's it.
R- But all marriages and that were at Thornton, deaths, funerals it all had to come through Thornton.
[The arrangements at Barlick were similar. St James in what became Church Street was a ‘chapel of ease’ under Gill Church. All weddings and funerals had to be at Gill.]
Aye that's it. And can you remember any social events connected with the church you know, like what you went to.
R- Christmas party, that were about all that I can remember and Walking days.
Aye walking days that ud be Whit Sunday wouldn't it here.
R- No. They didn't walk at Whitsuntide at Earby. No, it ud be, I think it were May, sometime in May were walking day. All the Sunday schools walked. It were all an amalgamated procession.
Aye that's it aye.
R- And there’d be hundreds and hundreds and there were horse and cart wi’ a harmonium on and it used to stop at various places and conductor and playing and singing hymns on us way round.
How about Salvation Army in Earby? Were there one?
R- Aye they started one up in Earby but it didn't last so long.
No it's never seemed to be as strong in Earby as it were like in Barlick has it.
R - No, no.
What would you say, which sort of folk would you say went to church?
R- Well, I don't think there were much difference between any of them, whether they went to the Baptists or not. There were rich and poor went to Sunday school 'cause like they had to do.
Aye. Ernie draws a lot of distinction between what he calls Methodists [and others]. I mean you know what he’s like about Methodists you know. I mean obviously Ernie is, you know he's prejudiced to some extent. Have you ever come across that sort of prejudice before about Methodists?
R- No I never found it so meself but Ernie had reason hadn't he, 'cause he were never helped were he wi’t religion weren’t Ernest.
(300)
No. No and family troubles an all. Would you say that they mixed well at church or were some of 'em a bit stand offish, you know.
R- Thee were certain, say like, if Birleys ever came and one or two of these, I can’t just fetch there names to mind now but they thought they were more than anybody else you know. They’d have liked to have been the squire of the village or sommat like that. But they were just too late.
[Stanley laughs] That's it, too late, aye. Turn my noisy piece of paper over. How about outings or visits when you were young. You know, special days out, if you went for a special day out.
R- Oh it were allus walking.
Yes.
R- Well I'm saying walking, me mother, well it were me aunty, she had a sister at Brierfield and sometimes at Saturday me mother ud take me brother and me, go to Earby station, on the train from Earby to Colne then on the tram from Colne to Colne and Nelson Boundary and then walk from there to Nelson and we’d meet me aunty and two of me cousins.
(20 mins)
Didn't trams go into Nelson?
R- Oh yes but you could only afford to go so far. And we’d meet them, they'd walk from Brierfield to Nelson, we’d meet them and go round the shops and market and then we’d walk back to Brierfield and have us tea at Brierfield and then coming back we’d get a tram, probably all way to Colne and then on the train from Colne home to Earby. But part on it had to be walked although you know, it were only a copper or two. We’d be saving about threepence or fourpence.
Aye. Well, you’re talking about saving threepence or fourpence, how much were a loaf of bread then?
R- Aye that's it aye. You could get a loaf of bread for that couldn't you.
Yes. That's one of the things that struck me, I thought it was very good. 1 once read somewhere that people talk about the way wages kept up with the price of stuff you know. Now suppose that at about that time wages were just about keeping up with what little inflation there was. But somebody pointed out that at the same time, like the invention of the
(350)
tram actually dropped the wage of the working man because he only had to go on a tram ride, a tuppenny tram ride, and that were half a loaf of broad less.
R- That's it instead of walking.
Which in effect lowered his wage, you know, it's a funny way of looking at it but it works. Can you ever remember any of your family being connected with the Temperance movement Fred?
R- Well, that’s a funny thing is that. When we went to Sunday school, I'd happen be about thirteen and they were having some special classes and lectures with this new parson what they'd got and it were all on Temperance and you'd to write an essay on Temperance. I wrote one and I got a certificate for it, Temperance. And I still have the certificate at home and there's a lot of cod about it now you know. In them days I wrote and won a certificate, talking about the alcohol and all that sort of stuff.
Did you actually sign the pledge?
R- Aye you’d to more or less sign the pledge an all.
Aye that's it.
R- I, Fred Inman, you know, when you got this certificate. It’s somewhere 'cause my wife wouldn't part wi’ it. {Fred laughs] Oh no, she thinks the world of that!
I should think so too.
R- Because she keeps reminding me about it!
You know the famous story about the fella that gave the Temperance lecture don't you, he stood up in the hall and he had two glasses on the table and one had water in and the other had whisky in and he has this worm and he says, now I want you to watch this. He dropped the worm into the glass with the water in and he held it up, you know, and the worm's swimming round in the water. He says, there you are, this worm is perfectly at home in this water, it's doing it no harm at all. Now then, watch this. And he fished the worm out of the water and dropped it into the glass of whisky and the worm immediately went into a cork screw and expired. And he held it up, he said, now then friends, look at that. What does that mean? And a voice came from the back of the hall – “If you've got worms drink whisky!” [Fred and Stanley both laugh] Aye, which would be about right. And so they told you all about the evils of drink there did they.
R- Yes, yes you learnt all that.
And what did they tell you about the evils of drink, can you remember what they actually told you.
No I can’t remember at all.
(400)
Can you remember seeing women going into pubs?
R- Just occasionally.
What sort of women were they?
R- Well, they didn't go to work. I'm going back a long, long while, well there were two in particular in Earby, and whatever money they could get they'd spend it on drink. I don't know how their husbands went on with them. They must have had to stick hold of the money and do their own shopping and all that, but as long as these women could get hold of a tanner they'd be into the pub.
What sort of drink were that Fred, ale or gin?
R- Ale, they wouldn't be able to afford gin.
Aye.
R- One woman in particular, we were coming home from school at four o'clock and they had her laid on a handcart had these policemen. Two policemen, they were pushing her home, she were paralytic. Well we followed her all the way up Aspin Lane, the police pushing this here hand cart, we followed her up. It were sommat you know to see a woman so drunk she couldn't stand up.
(25 mins)
Aye. That's it aye.
R- Bobbies wheeling her home on a hand cart.
What would people think about women going into pubs then.
R- Oh they were dead against it. They were low, they used to call ‘em low women you know. Women of easy virtue and that sort of thing.
Aye.
R- 'Cause they were. Now when I'm older and I can look back, they were, they were very, very loose were the majority on ‘em.
Yes, aye. Would you say, now I don't know how to put this, I mean, we're talking about people lecturing you on drink. Did anybody ever lecture you about sex, or on the evils of being promiscuous or anything like that.
R- Oh this parson he used to talk on that occasionally.
Aye. Keep you straight like.
R - Yes.
Aye.
R- But I allus looked at it this way and I've looked at it since. I sort wheat from chaff.
Aye.
R- You know, I learnt a lot and there's a lot on it I didn't want to remember and I forgot about that but I remembered what I thought were good for me.
Aye, sorted it out for yourself.
R - I sorted it out for meself.
It's always seemed to me to be a very good way. I'll tell you what, I don't know whether you'd agree with this but I always think that one of the best ways of educating children about sex is to let them have animals.
(450)
R - Yes.
See cattle about and calving and all rest of it.
R- Aye well like I've allus had dogs and our Jack were fetched up wi’ 'em and such.
Yes.
R- Once, I can remember his mother were saying sommat to him. She were just going to approach him you know, happen explain a bit of sex to him. Look he says, don’t say owt about it, Mr Armitage, that were the school master, has told us all that if we want to know anything more and we don't feel like approaching us parents we can approach him at any time. I thought well, that were very good.
And who were that, that's not so long since is it?
R- Well what will he be? He’ll be about thirty sommat now.
Aye.
R- And that were when he were about twelve.
Aye.
R- Aye he were a school master and he were one of them that started it, you know, free and easy.
Yes.
R- He weren’t a really strict un but he instilled all this sex and you know, right and wrong of sex and all that.
Aye.
R- And he used to take ‘em off for week-ends and happen at holidays for three or four days. Take 'em camping and canoeing.
Aye.
R- Well, that, in a lot of ways, he were too easy going. But in a lot of other ways he did a lot for children and I allus remember what's he's done for our Jack. Teaching 'em to swim and then he took them on a river and they'd have a canoe and nobody had to go in that canoe unless they'd passed so much swimming and lifesaving and all that.
Aye, that's it aye.
R- And I've seen him go off and they'd come back and their soap’s never been taken out of the paper what he’s taken! [Fred laughs] And he's come back wi’ a weeks growth on and they've had a real good time.
(500)
Aye.
R- Free and easy. Swimming in the river, it happened to be a good week and they were doing nowt only swimming in the river and canoeing all week.
Aye. aye not a bad way to be.
R- No.
Did you know of any families that you know, in the days that we’re talking about, round about the 1920s like, you know that were actually ruined wi’ drink.
R- Aye. Yes, lads and lasses they were nearly all big families where the father were boozers you know. I mean they were very, very poor. All hand me downs and what other folk had given 'em and all that. Ernest told about wearing lasses shoes, button shoes, and you’d see them same. Happen wi’ one clog and one shoe, one clog too big and another too little and well, in fact some on 'em smelled. They'd never know what a bath were or to be washed properly or owt of that. They hadn't even a handkerchief or not even a piece of rag, all they'd do is wipe their nose on their sleeve.
Aye that's it, aye.
R- I know some of them lads and lasses and they've turned out really good, what were fetched up very, very rough. ‘Cause they saw enough at home and I suppose they thought well if I get wed it it’ll be a different carry on. And they've been really good parents.
(30 mins)
Yes I think that’s perhaps one of nature’s ways you know. I’ve often thought that meself, I think that's perhaps one of nature’s ways. I mean if they see the rough side of something like that.. I mean for instance, I know several young women that are quite straight laced for this day and age, quite straight laced and you'll nearly always find that their mothers were buggers, you know.
R- Yes, aye.
You know. I mean what you’d say loose, really loose. And yet they 're what you'd call straight laced, really too far the other way. But they've seen one side of it and it's put 'em off.
(550)
R - Oh it must have been hell on earth you know for some of them kids, mustn’t it.
Oh, when you think.
R- They didn't know what it were to get owt reight to eat.
When you think about it Fred.
R- I doubt whether they'd have any soap in the house some on ‘em.
Well you know the old saying, if one half of the world knew how the other half lived, Of course, that’s what these tapes are all about. It's so as people can find out how other people lived. In the local pub were there certain rooms for certain people. You know like were there a tap room, best room and snug?
R- Oh there were tap room and best rooms and what do they...oh what else do they call ‘em ... smoke rooms and various rooms.
There used to be the singing room didn't there at some pubs.
R- Bar parlour, there were all sorts of distinctions.
Aye. Can you ever remember any street performers in Earby? You know, anybody busking, you know?
R- Aye I can remember organ grinders coming round wi’ a monkey.
What sort of organ? Two wheels or one on a stick?
R- Two wheels. I can’t remember them on stick.
Aye.
R- Two wheels and then I can just remember ‘em coming round wi’ a bear, a performing bear.
With a performing bear!
R- Yes.
Aye?
R- And then after they'd been, we all used to laik, we used to call it addy-on-conkay. Somebody ud be in a sack and he’d be tied up and you know he’d have to dance and he were supposed to be the bear.
Aye?
R- And he used to shout addy-on-conkay. And he’d be dancing about in the sack and then when he’d had a do, he got out and t’others went in.
You’re intriguing me about this bear. How long ago's that Fred?
R- Well I don't think I'd be above five or six. [about 1914?]
Aye.
R- You know things stick in your mind that could nearly have happened Aye, when you were three year old.
Oh yes, easy.
R- And it sticks in your mind and that's stuck.
Yes. I can remember something you know and nobody believes
(600)
I can remember it. I can remember watching a steam crane working on Merseyway at Stockport and I can see that crane in my minds eye as clear as day. And I was born in February 1936 and Merseyway was opened to the public at the end or 1936. So I was less than one year old.
R- Aye well it is so.
And 1 can remember watching that crane and I'll tell you somethin6 else I can remember, I can remember perfectly the details of the wood work on the shop front where the pram was when I was watching it. And I could take you to where that shop stood now. It's amazing, I've often thought about it, it makes you wonder what it is, something must have caught my attention then and it was just like a camera clicking and the shutter clicked and do you know I can shut my eyes now and honestly I can see it on the back of me eye lids. I could draw you that and I could drew you the fellas that were there. It were an old steam crane with a boiler stuck up at the back working away there. And I mean I was certainly less than a year old.
R- Well I can vaguely remember, especially if we're down in the White Lion and some of the older end starts talking about sommat, blooming heck I can remember about that.
Aye.
R- You know, when you look the date back you were only three or four years old.
Yea, that's it. You've just mentioned sommat there. The White Lion. I may forget it when we get round to it but we've been talking about pubs. Can you remember when Jacky Waterworth, when they got that fella boxing.
R- Boxing, aye! {Fred laughs]
Just tell me about that, can you remember much about it, when they persuaded ..there used to be a photograph in the White Lion..
R- Yes there were, aye, Jacky.
Is it still there of Jacky and them great trunks, great shorts down to below his knees?
(650) 35 mins.
R - Aye. Well It were Sammy Cragg and Jacky what were fighting. Well Sammy were a bit of a character, he’d been taken a prisoner twice in t’war you know, and escaped and that sort of thing and he were a bit of a boxer. Well I'm saying a bit of a boxer, held be as good as owt there were in Earby. And they arranged this 'cause Jacky fancied his self as a boxer, so they had it set out up in the top room, nobody ever went in the top room in them days. And eventually it gets out there’s going to be this boxing match. They had all the floor chalked, it were only oilcloth on the floor and they had it chalked like a ring and there were all the way round. And what did they call the fella? There were a fella there wi’ a microphone and nowt attached to it, just like the microphone. Anyway he were a real good commentator and he's taping this to the BBC - Jacky thought it were on BBC And when they went into the corner you know for break, they daubed lipstick on Jacky’s gloves and then when they went in Sammy let him hit him, you know, all red on his face you know. And they were shouting “Give ower Jacky! Tha’s gong to kill him!”
(Laughter from Stanley)
R - Jacky's preening his self and he give him another and Cragg ud go on the floor for about seven you know and this fellas commentating just to perfection. And Jackie went into his corner again “Tha’rt doing well Jacky, keep it up, there’s nobody ever knocked him out afore.” “I’ll knock him out, I’ll knock him out!” All lipstick again tha knows and he's covered in blood is Sammy and Jacky’s knocking him down two or three times, just managing to get up in time you know. And then when he’s in his corner, Jacky's sat there
(700)
doesn’t ail a thing you know and they’re wafting Sammy and massaging him and rubbing him and giving him smelling salts. Then when they thought he’d had enough like he just give Jacky a belt, about first time he’d hit him you know, he didn't hit him too hard but he'd had enough had Jacky when he did. [Fred nearly chokes laughing] So he stopped the fight then did the referee. And he got his photo taken did Jacky.
[Stanley is laughing] Aye it's still up there isn't it.
R - Aye.
Photo of Jacky.
R- And then they arranged a return and I think the police must have got to know sommat about it and he daren’t let *em have another do daren’t Sam Taylor, he were the landlord. You know it were, what would you call it? An exhibition or sommat and he weren’t licensed.
Aye.
R- So it didn’t come off again. But Jackie thought he were doing well and it were a real tip you know, if you'd have given a bob, which were a fair good do then. You'd have said I’ve getten a good bob's worth.
Aye, Oh I’ve heard 'em on about it many a time. About Jacky Waterworth. When Jacky Waterworth- fought Sammy Cragg. I've heard 'em on about it many a time and I've seen that photograph down there in the White Lion because he looks a bugger in them gurt shorts doesn’t he!
R- Aye. [more laughing from both]
Anyway, come on, let’s get back to straight and narrow. Did you belong to any clubs or societies before you left school Fred, you know like the church choir or Band of Hope or Scouts?
R - No . no.
It says here the Girls Friendly Society but you wouldn't belong to that. What did you think of Earby as a place to live in when you were young.
R - Well wi’ not knowing owt else I thought it were alreight Stanley.
Aye.
(750)
R - And even like when I'd been to me auntie’s at Brierfield and me uncle's at Keighley I were allus glad to get back.
Yes.
R- I never fancied living in them places.
Yes. On the whole would you say that you enjoyed your child-hood?
R- Yes I did.
Even though, I mean obviously, your father was like a bit of a disciplinarian.
R- That’s it aye.
Things had to be reight. but would you say he were fair?
R- Oh he were fair, yes.
Aye.
R- Oh you, I mean you got your good hidings but you didn't get 'em if you hadn't done owt. You'd done sommat to get one.
That’s it, if you got one you deserved it.
R - You deserved it aye. And you used to get 'em there were no doubt about it.
Would you say that one of the things about that Fred, I'm pushing you a little bit now I know, but would you say that one of the things about that was that you always knew exactly where you stood with your parents?
(40 mins)
R - Yes you did.
I often think that's one of the things, you know, that there's no doubt about. I often think that it doesn’t really matter if a parent's a bit too strict with their children or something like that as long as the children are never in any doubt as to exactly where they stand.
R - That's it aye. If me father says do sommat, you did it there and then, no ifs and buts. If you didn’t, well you could expect to get a bit of a welt or sommat like that. And same as, you come dashing in to back yard, come running into the house for sommat and left the gate open. Before you got what you'd gone into house for - get back and shut that gate even if you were going straight out again you’d to go back and shut the gate and then come in and get what you wanted.
I do same thing wi’ the kids now. I do the same thing with ‘em now.
(600)
R - And it does you good.
Well. there's a lot of people think I'm hard wi’ ‘em. They think I'm a bit hard wi’ me children. Mind you I’ve never hit them. I used to occasionally, when they were younger, I used to smack children’s legs you know, if they were being naughty. But one day I broke me dogs leg. And I never realised I’d done it and I said to Vera that day ... first thing I did were get hold of the vet you know, and I told him, I said I don’t care if you have to amputate that bloody dog’s leg. I want that dog keeping on the road. Anyway they pinned it and it cost me a bloody fortune but they mended it up. But I said to Vera at the time, 1 remember saying, that's it I said. That's the last time I ever hit kids. Because you know I were picking milk up at time and I could pick a twelve gallon kit of milk up which weighed hundred and sixty eight pound, and there could be twelve on the floor and it were a bloody good five foot up on to the wagon flat you know. And I just used to pick 'em up straight up off the floor, just put me hand, one hand under the rim and one on the handle. And plonk it straight on to the flat, never bothered me you know. Well you know you don't realise your own strength you know.
R- You don't, no.
And I tell you I broke that dog’s leg that day. And honestly I didn't, I never did anything. I mean all I did were just grab hold of it but you know you don’t realise do you. You don't realise the power you have in you and I just said to her that's it. 'Cause Vera’s often told me she says you know, she says, you're trouble is you don't know how strong you are. I get hold of her and give her a squeeze, Christ you could hear her bloody ribs creak.
R - Well I will say this, I've instilled it into them grandchildren of ours. I bet they never come in but what they shut the gate.
Oh aye.
R- And they shut gate when they go out.
(850)
Aye but I mean if they know where they stand and all the rest of it. Can you remember going to a wedding when you were young?
R- Not to a wedding in church or chapel but to a wedding tea. It were a weaver what, you see the mother were a weaver and me father were her tackler and her daughter were getting married and she invited me father and mother and us to tea and it were at what they called Whalley's cafe. There is a cafe there now, next to Cook and Thornton's.
Aye.
R- It were a well known place you know for that sort of thing.
That's it yes.
R - And I can remember going there and that were first time we’d ever been to owt like that. You know, knife and fork. Boiled ham and tongue, weddings and funerals, weren’t they, boiled ham and tongue.
I were just going to say were it boiled ham.
R- Aye boiled ham and tongue.
Boiled ham, it were just about obligatory weren’t it.
R - Aye. We were thrilled to bits with this tea party job.
Aye. How about funerals did you ever go to a funeral?
R- No. Well, not while I were getting grown up.
What would you say that you enjoyed doing most when you were a child?
R- Well, if I could get a football I liked to be punching a football about.
Aye.
R- Aye or a bowl, you know bowling on the road.
Now I don't know what you mean. What do you mean bowling on the road?
R - Hoop you know, hoop.
Hoop. That’s it aye.
R- They called ‘em bowls.
Wooden or iron?
(900)
R- Iron.
Blacksmith?
R- Aye. And as I were saying afore about going to Fence End. I've run to Fence End nearly all the way wi’ a bowl. Bar up Wizzik you know, then when you got to top of Thornton you were right wi’ a guider on.
Yes, yes that’s it. I've heard Ernie on about that going to Gisburn.
R - Aye.
With hoops, wi’ bowls.
R- Bowls. It's surprising how far you could go.
Aye, and did you have any pocket money when you were young?
R- Aye, three ha’pence when we were young.
And did you just get that or did you have to do sommat to earn it?
R- No. We got it whether we’d done owt or not.
Aye. What did you spend it on?
R- Well, we'd get three ha’pence Saturday morning and spend a ha’penny on Charlie’s rock happen.
Charlie’s .... ?
R- Rock aye.
Aye.
R- Them were them bars of toffee. They were all in the go in them days, they were made at Nelson. They called ‘em old Charlie’s Rock, not Blackpool Rock, but it were a similar do. You could get pineapple, mint and double mint and that.
What were it Victory V?
R- No, no it were a private firm.
Aye.
R- Aye, I’ll tell you who it were if it matters. You know Stanley Whittaker what had garage?
Yes.
R- Well it were his uncle.
Aye.
(45 mins)
R- Were this Hodgon what made Charlie’s rock.
Hodgon?
R- Hodgon they called him.
(950)
R- And then at afternoon well we’d have a penny and we'd happen get a bar of chocolate or sometimes there were some things, they called 'em turnovers, they were like a horse shoe wi’ a lid on and you lifted lid up and there were a little present inside. I think them were a penny.
How much were it to go to pictures then?
R- I think it were threepence to go in the pictures but when we were really little kids the Empire weren’t built then.
When were the Empire built? ... roughly?
R- Just before the fourteen war.
And you were born?
R- It might have been finished in fourteen.
Yes and you were born?
R- 1908.
Nineteen hundred and eight, aye well..
R- But they used to have come up to the Weavers, Weavers Institute. top room. There were...
Where were the Weavers Institute?
R- It's up aside of the cricket field if you know where that is.
Yes, that's it aye, like back of the council offices there, that field?
R- That's it and when you look at it now you wondered how they got so many in. There weren’t a special room or owt for the cinematograph, it were just on a bit of a stand and there used to be concerts there as well like, concert parties coming and...
Aye.
R- We used to get to go there at Saturday afternoon.
Aye.
R- I don't know whether it were a penny or three ha'pence.
And that were run by the union?
R- No.
No, they just let the room out.
R- They let the room off did the Weavers.
Aye.
R- It were a dance place an all. I should think it ud be occupied every Saturday after they finished, after they built the Empire. They finished wi’ pictures there but it ud still be occupied wi’ dances and these here variety shows coming.
(1008)
SCG/14 April 2003
8,094 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/07
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 19TH OF OCTOBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
This week we'll start off with a very interesting subject, politics. Can you ever remember the family when you were at home, discussing politics?
R- Now, yes I can remember but I should think me father would be a Liberal at one time and then when they put a Labour man up in Skipton division he turned Labour and there were no argument like, me mother followed him and that were top and bottom of it.
Aye, what year would that be about Fred?
R- It’d happen be about fourteen.
And you were born in 1908.
R- Right.
Right, so that's going to be about 1922 isn’t it
R- Mm...I know it were when things were bad.
Aye.
R- 1922 or 23.
Yes, near enough Fred, near enough. And why do you think he changed over from Liberal to Labour you know Socialist.
R- Well it got to be, it had allus been Liberal and Conservative in the Skipton Division. And then when this Labour man put up, well everybody thought well it's going to be sommat new and Socialism were new coming into Earby more or less at that time. And I suppose that's why he changed, to have a bit better going on as they kept saying. If they got a change of government and that sort of thing. That's all. I don't think there were much argument. I can just remember one of me aunties coming once and she said “My, I never thought you'd have voted Labour!” She were a reight old Tory. Well he says. “I never thought you'd have voted Tory!” I can remember him saying that to her. She says “Well, I think you're foolish you know.” Well he says “You have your way and I’ll have mine.” And that were that, that finished it, there were no arguments.
Did he go to any political meetings? Did they have any in the town?
R- Oh when it were election time. Well that were a good do for us kids, you could go with your parents. Well it used to pass a couple of hours on. They'd have the Empire picture place, they had that had the Labour Party. The pictures were stopped and the screen were up and the stage all set out and these speakers on. Well we were thrilled to bits with it 'cause we’d never known owt about that.
(50)
Can you remember any of the speakers?
R- Aye there were a fella called O. G .Willey. He were a bit, a real talker. He put up in this Division about twice and then he went somewhere else and got in at the next do.
How do you spell that?
R- W I L L E Y.
Aye.
R - And then there were, what would there be. Somebody called Bird used to put up for the Conservatives Roy Bird. We used to go up Albion Hall if we got half a chance we used to dodge up there. And then where the library is now, that were the Liberal Club. We used to go in there, there’d be, we were fit up like nearly four or five nights a week at these political meetings. All for nowt.
Aye.
R- And it were one thing you looked forward to, there were nowt much else.
Aye.
R- Then there used to be a bit of heckling and asking questions and that sort of thing, but if you went up to Albion Hall, if you made a bit of a murmur you were out. I can remember some older than me you know, happen in twenties stage, heckling a bit and out. They didn't get to stop in if they did any heckling at all. Well at Labour they seemed to encourage ‘em a bit to try and convert 'em instead of chucking ‘em out.
Aye.
(5 mins)
R- 'Cause like they allus used to say a bad Conservative makes a Communist didn't they. I can remember that when I were a little kid hearing that.
Aye. Well 1921 was the year when the Communist Party started in this country and Barlick was one of the first Communist Party's to start up. I think that were, what was his name, [Jimmy] Rushton.
R- Rushton. Aye, I can remember him coming to Earby talking. Aye he used to come and spout on what we called the fair ground then, where the bus station is.
That's it aye.
R- He put up for the council a time or two didn't he.
Aye.
R - Barlick council.
Aye, a bit of an agitator I think he were. I have an idea, I'm not sure, there's a woman called Bessie Dickinson in Burnley, and I have an idea that she was one of his daughters. And her husband was in Nelson rather, not Burnley. Her husband was a big man in the I L P at Nelson. He were communist and then he modified his views slightly and joined the I.L.P.
R- Aye.
Can you remember at that time talking about politics did your father, did he mind people knowing what he voted.
(100)
R - Not at that time he didn’t.
Yes, what I'm thinking about is you know, 1 mean at one time you know, a lot of these mill owners were funny buggers and if they were Liberals and they knew men were voting against them, you know.
R - Oh yes aye. I know that, no he didn't bother, he didn't keep it secret at all.
Aye.
R- Course there were a lot that had come out of the fourteen eighteen war hadn't they. And they all changed their opinions I think. And when Labour did start building up, they helped to build it up a lot of them out of the war.
Would you say generally it made a difference to people? You know, when they went away to war and come back. Could you say that it did make a difference to ‘em.
R - It broadened their outlook in a lot of things. And, now you mentioned about people saying what they were and what manufacturers, some on ‘em were. There were one woman in particular that worked at Birley's, Victoria Mill and A J. Birley were a very big Tory. And it were election time and a lot of weavers they had photos of, well pictures of the Labour candidate fastened on pillars in mill and on steam pipes and that and this woman went after A J. Birley and said, “If I were you Mr. Birley I'd sack all them weavers what votes Labour!” And he says, “If I'd to sack all them weavers what do you think ud happen to my mill?” He says “A lot of those weavers are some of my best!” So that hit her at top of head to start wi’.
Aye.
R - Which were so.
Course there were a lot of weavers used to vote Conservative didn't they. Funny thing that, a lot of people can’t understand how you know, there were one division, Salford, that were the worst slums in Salford and it turned in a Tory candidate solid for years.
R- Aye.
For decades, solid Tory they were, people can’t understand it but I often wondered whether they just didn’t want to change. You know, I mean they didn't like the idea of change. Voting Tory seemed safe and that were it. Did you father always vote?
R- Yes I should think he always voted.
And your mother?
R- Yes.
Did you ever hear your father say anything about what he thought about suffragettes and votes for women?
R – No. I never heard him talk about that at all.
Aye. While we're on about politics and we've mentioned Rushton, as you say about 1920, things weren’t so good after 1920. Can you remember any strikes, lockout's and what not in Earby when you were young?
R - No, no, I can’t remember any in Earby, not when I were young. Jimmy Rushton, that were his name weren’t it?
(150) 10 mins.
Jimmy that's it, Jimmy Rushton. Now one of the things, have you ever heard your father talking about any of strikes earlier on?
R - Oh yes. Aye there were a big strike in Earby. All I can say like is what I've heard.
Yes well that's right Fred, when were that about, any idea?
R- I don't know what it were about but what was the Earby Manufacturing Company at one time. Where Vokes is now. A fellow called Hugh Currer, he were the boss there. And it allus got called Hugh Currer’s did that mill wi’ all the old Earbyers even when he’d gone. And there were a strike at that mill but I don't know what it were about. I've heard 'em talk about it but I never really enquired what it were about. And they said they had mounted police down in Earby, scattering people.
Mm...One of the things that if you read the history books they'll tell you about, is the great 1911 lockout. Then of course you'd only be three year old. But according to the history books every mill in Lancashire locked it's doors and kept the workers out. They were after more money, that's what it were. And in point of fact ... it never happened. Well not in Barlick any way and I were just wondering whether you'd ever heard your father mention anything about a big strike in 1911 in Earby.
R- No, there’d be nowt in Earby at that time, nothing.
Aye.
R- I think that ud be when a lot came out of Lancashire into Barlick wouldn't it?
Well at that time there was a lot of building going on in Barlick yes.
R - Yes.
Aye that could be right couldn't it. Because 1 don't doubt that that strike was more effective if you like. The lockout did take place in places like Blackburn and Burnley. I know, it didn’t happen in Nelson because one of me mate’s done a bit of research there and he said that in point of fact it never happened in Nelson either. But probably Blackburn, Accrington and further afield like that.
R - And Burnley. 'Cause when I were working early on at Johnsons. I had an elderly weaver worked under me and she were telling me about when she lived at Burnley when she were young, and probably it ud be this 1911 strike. And they were out on strike and they came and screwed their front doors off and their back doors did the bosses of the mill. The houses belonged to the mill.
Aye.
R- And they came and screwed their doors off and took ‘em away.
Aye.
R- Starved 'em back to work..
Aye. Have you ever heard anybody on about people blacklegging, you know going in when a mill were on strike, or have you ever seen anything of that?
(200)
R- Yes. aye
Tell us about that Fred.
R- Well I know there were a strike on at Colne at one particular mill and there were some from Earby on the dole.
When were this?
R - When would it be, 1930's early 1930.
Which mill Fred?
R- I don't know what mill it were..
It's right, I'm pushing you...
R - 'Cause I weren’t interested in it really.
Yes.
R- They went and when they'd done a day or two they couldn’t face it any more and they had to come back then. And then they had a bit of bother getting back on to the dole then, because they'd chucked their work up.
Mm., When you say they couldn't face it, what was that, intimidation.
R - Aye and pickets and crowds shouting at 'em and that.
I've heard about in Nelson. I've heard about people, somebody that were blacklegging you know, people going round and banging pots outside their house all night to keep ‘em awake and rattling on the windows and such as that.
R- Keep ‘em awake.
Have you ever seen that done?
R- No but as you say, I've heard about 'em doing all sorts to stop 'em from getting to work.
Mm.. Can you remember anything about the, Jim tells about, let’s see, it ud be about 1933 I think or 1934 or something like that. Up at Sough Bridge they had mounted police in then.
R- Yes aye.
Can you remember that?
R- That were what do they call it, about 1932 weren’t it the strike..
Aye soma like that yes.
R - Cotton strike.
Yes.
R - Oh I can remember that 'cause eventually all Earby were out.
(15 mins)
Yes, where were you working then Fred?
R- I were working at Birley’s at Albion Mill.
Albion aye. And were you out as well?
R- Yes.
What were it about, the strike?
R- It were about going on to the more loom system,
Aye that's it.
R - And you know, so many workers ud have to finish.
[Fred signals a very important factor about the resistance to the More Looms System. This is very often portrayed by commentators as being about changing the status quo. In fact the weavers in Barlick and Earby made it very clear that what they were after was proper wages inside the new system and compensation for those who lost their jobs as a result of it.]
Yes.
R- And all that.
And did it make any difference, the strike?
R – No, it didn't make any difference, they all had to go back.
Aye.
R- It were ill timed happen, 'cause things were very bad in them days. It were ill timed were the strike. But same as up at Sough and Dotcliffe they were determined they wouldn't come out, you could more or less call it non-union people that were working there. [Sough Bridge was a co-operative shed.]
Yes.
R- And you used to have crowds going up out of Earby up to Dotcliffe to shout at 'em and that sort of thing.
Aye.
R- And up to Sough. One particular time up at Sough they fetched all these police up and they had a charge at all these what were intimidating, scattered ‘em, run 'em all ower the place.
(250)
Aye.
R- Brayed some of 'em an all. [Brayed is a local term for beaten]
Where would the police come from, were they all local?
R- No, they came from out of the mining districts. Biggest part on ‘em ud be six foot, six foot one, great big fellas. What you might call strike breakers. If there were any trouble anywhere, you know, well they'd send these here particular men.
Aye.
R- These fellas, they were used to the job, you could see that.
Aye. When you say they were ‘used to the job, you could see it’, what do you mean?
R- Well they weren’t just ordinary policemen like what you saw walking about in the streets, there were sommat about 'em that, they looked different altogether, it were their build and that I think. You know, they were a fairly big do..
Yes.
R- In fact there's one policeman up at Sough to-day what came with them, Toothill they call him.
That's it Watson Toothill.
R- Aye he came with 'em.
Is that right? Aye he's a big tall bloke isn't he. Aye I know Watson, is he still going is Watson?
R- Oh aye he's still up at Sough, I see him ... I see him fairly regular.
I’m glad you mentioned that because I know him. I’ll go and have a word with him. He'll know a fair bit about that. That's a good do. Aye. So it all wasn’t all sweetness and light in the cotton trade in those days. Now then here's a thing, education. What school did you go to Fred?
R- Well, when I started I went to what they call the Wesleyans. That were the Chapel. Wesleyan Chapel and they had a school attached to it.
Aye.
R- And we went there while [until] we were seven and then from seven them what lived at this end of Earby went up to Alder Hill.
Yes.
R- And them what lived at the other end, they went to New Road school.
Aye.
R- And they called that the Board School, I don't know why but it allus got Board School but it were New Road.
Aye.
R- You could please yourself which you went to in them days.
Yes.
R - You went to the nearest to where you lived and I went up to Alder Hill when I were seven then I left when I were thirteen. I'd only six years there and I used to enjoy it. And then I got to a teacher and she, whether she weren’t capable of doing her job reight I don't know, only that were standard four and I finished my education there, she just knocked me, well a few on us, flat. What had been good scholars up to coming into her class and then, just went
(300)
to pot. She wouldn't bother wi’ you and I don't, you know, when I look back and think, she weren’t capable of adjusting herself to all different types of children. She'd just pick about four out and them were her pets. 'Cause when they were getting to that stage they started studying then for their exams to go to Skipton Grammar School. Well if she could get some and they passed their exam for Skipton Grammar School, well probably she thought it were a feather in her cap and it didn't matter about the other twenty five or twenty six what were in the class, what happened to them. That were my opinion later on in life.
Aye, mill fodder. Probably a lot in that Fred.
(20 mins)
R- And we used to remark about it. When anybody passed to go to Skipton Grammar School they got their photograph taken and it were put up in the hall but I don’t think there were ever a weaver’s son or daughter passed to go to grammar school. Not while I were going to Alder Hill.
And Alder Hill really weren’t a bad school, were it in them days.
R- Oh no. It were, well we used to call it New School 'cause it weren’t old. I used to enjoy it up to then and then after that I got to standard five. Well, you were coming to a bit then and you went to wood-work, well that were just up my street were woodwork. In fact when you were twelve, you went half time. Well you finished your wood-work then, you only got twelve months. But this wood-work teacher he must have taken a fancy to me this time, we're turning round a bit, and he got permission for me to go to wood-work when I were going half time to work. I could change Friday, instead of going morning to work one week and afternoon the next I got it changed so I could go to school every Friday morning and then I'd to go to work every afternoon.
That were so you could do wood-work.
R- So I could do wood-work and he wanted to get me a job when I were leaving school at thirteen.
Aye as a chippy.
(350)
R- Go like an apprentice to a joiner. And he picked a few out and they all did well, he found ‘em reasonably good apprenticeships, 'cause there were a lot of joiners in Skipton at that time and he came from Skipton. And he were one of them teachers what you could get on wi’, everybody could get on with him, even the biggest duffer. He’d try and explain and show ‘em how to sharpen their tools and use them. Some of them, well you can’t knock it into some can you. Well he used to get shut of them if he could you know, get 'em back into class. There were only twenty could go into wood-work.
Aye, sounds like a good man Fred.
R- He were a tip topper all round, metal work and woodwork.
What were his name?
R- Thornton, Mr. Thornton, he allus stands out in my mind and other people’s. Other lads what went, you know, what were reasonably good, they'll all speak well of him.
R- 'Cause he certainly showed me a lot.
Aye. It's grand is that when a fella’s remembered for his teaching so long after, it is. He must have been a good man. What were teachers strict about there, were they strict? Strict punishment?
R- Strict? Oh aye, I used to get punished, cane.
What for?
R- Well the least little bit of a thing, if you were talking, happen giggling. Come out and a couple of raps or sommat like that. Or especially if you, another thing, if you had your knuckle up on your pen instead of laying your finger flat on your pen, they used to come and rattle your knuckle for you.
Aye. Did you think it did you any harm?
R- No I don't think it did. [Fred laughs] It never bothered me much.
Did you go to night school after you'd left school?
R- Yes. I went to night school. I left school at thirteen and I went to night school till I were twenty two.
Which night school?
R- They had it down at New Road and then they had wood-work and model making up at Alder Hill.
And what did you go to?
R- Well you'd got to take English, so we used to take English, Drawing and Wood-work and for two year we took Book-keeping you know, just to alter us subjects a bit, Three nights a week, three shilling it were to join.
(400)
Aye.
R- We used to come home from work at half past five, get us tea and run back to New Road to sign on to make sure you could get in. There were that many. And they only allowed so many in, and if you put about 90% of your attendances in you got your three bob back.
(25 mins)
Aye. And what were idea? Well for a start off, what were your idea in going to night school. Was it just to pass time on or to improve yourself Fred?
R- Well it were improving, to improve meself an all. A smattering of knowledge on various items. 'Cause I didn't mind drawing. I were never a good un but I enjoyed doing drawing and painting under the guidance of the teacher. Then when this book-keeping came on, me mate and me we allus stuck together and we were really fascinated wi’ bookkeeping and he just took it for two year and then there weren’t enough going so that class had to finish and he got a physical culture class going and I went to that until it finished and that were a few year. That chap were really good.
When you went half time where were you working at?
R- Bracewell Hartley’s.
Which were that?
R- It were on New Road.
What, Brook Shed?
R- Brook Shed aye.
Aye, did they have all the shed or were they tenants?
R- Oh they were just tenants. First place were Greens, 200 loom. Joe Foulds, 200 loom. Pickles, about 400. Bracewell Hartley’s 400 and Thomas Henry Hartley's 400.
Aye. Which Pickles were that? Same as the Barlick Pickles?
R- There were sommat, some relation to these Pickles at Barlick.
To Stephen, aye. Whereabouts were Nutters weaving in Earby then, Nutter Brothers were in Earby were they? Or weren’t they in Earby then, was it later?
R- Oh a lot later.
Aye.
(450)
R- They had Grove Mill, where Armoride is now.
Yes. Did they have all of it?
R- Yes, all the weaving what there were there.
How many looms?
R- Oh, I’d say there’d be over a thousand in.
Aye. And when you were at school did you get home for your dinners?
R- Yes, aye.
And did your parents ever visit you at school?
R- No there weren’t them parent does like there is to-day.
No but did they ever have any occasion to go to the school about something. You know something perhaps they didn't think were right.
R- No.
Did they show an interest in your school work.
R- Aye, to a certain extent but it never stood out you know. I think they were quite happy to think we were going and not worrying about school.
Yes.
R- I think that were the main thing.
Did the school ever get in touch with them about how you were doing?
R- Not as I know of. Only when we had this allotment on School Fields, the school master, he had one a bit below and they used to talk a lot did fellas you know. He’d happen go on and do a couple of hours digging and then they'd gather round would a few on 'em and have a smoke. Now whether Mr Lindley ever said owt about us I don't know. It were never mentioned at home.
And when you came round to leaving or going half time, what job did the teacher suggest you go and do?
R- Oh there were nowt of that then.
Nothing at all?
R- No.
What do you think their assumption was? Do you think that they thought that you'd go straight out and into the mill?
R- Into t’mill.
What else were there in Earby then besides the mill?
R- Nothing, only you could get farmer’s man, that were about all.
What do you think the teacher would think was a good job?
R- How do you mean?
Well, do you think that the teacher would think that weaving were a good job. Or tackling were a good job?
R- No, a lot of teachers looked down on 'em I think. ‘Cause they were teachers.
(500)
Aye. Did they ever do anything at school for Empire Day or Queen Victoria’s Jubilee?
R- No.
Coronations or owt. Were there ever any holidays or anything?
R- No there were nowt special but this Mr. Lindley he were a well respected man and he did a lot of history on Earby and there were no official holiday at Pancake Tuesday but he’d call you all into the hall at Tuesday dinner time and he’d say “Now then, you can have the afternoon off.”
Aye.
R- And he used to grant that on his own you know. It hadn't come from Wakefield or owt of that. And in winter time when happen it looked very bad, some of these lads what lived on farms and girls that lived on farms got, we didn't finish while four o'clock at school. Happen about half past three he'd come round to classes, “Reggie, Jack, Betty come on, get your clothes on, be getting home. It looks like there's going to be a storm.” And I don't think they'd do owt like that to-day, they wouldn't have the powers to do it, they'd work more to the book wouldn't they. They wouldn't think about....
'Course they finish about quarter past three anyway now from what I can see of it..
R- Aye.
How about medical inspections at school, can you ever remember any?
R- Yes, they used to come round about once a year happen.
What were they looking at?
R- They looked in your hair and your teeth and ....
Yes. If your teeth wanted anything doing to them, what happened?
R- Occasionally you got it done, very seldom. And they didn't do it at school. I can remember going to the Liberal Club twice, upstairs and there were a dentist and a nurse there. You'd go to school at one o’clock and then happen about quarter past one the teacher would say you've got to go down to the Liberal Club to the dentist. So and so and so we’d all go down. Then, I don't know how, when we were going back, we had to go back to school to tell Mr. Lindley you know to send some more down.
(550)
Aye.
R- I can remember getting one tooth pulled and I got two teeth filled once through school.
[During the 1940s and 50s I had exactly the same regime at school. We used to be sent to the ‘school dentist’ on Wellington Road in Stockport, just above Greek Street High School for Girls. It was painful and they instilled a fear of dentists in me that was only cured by having all my teeth out and dentures fitted when I was 23. This was not an uncommon reaction in those days of far from painless dentistry.]
Aye.
R- Oh they used to sound your heart and lungs and that but I think it were lice they were after most of all.
Aye.
R- Lice on the head.
When you went half time you'd have to go to the doctor before you went to mill, wouldn't you?
R- Aye, the doctor came to the mill.
Oh, he came to mill, who were it?
R- A doctor from Barlick. He were well known, I can’t remember his name now. But all he did he went into the office and he just feeled your pulse and looked at you.
R- I'm trying to think of that fellas name, it weren’t Glen it were … Eh now wait a minute, ‘cause I think it were the same fella that used to do 'em all at Barlick. He must have had a bit of an arrangement with the mill owners. If he did, he had a real job. And then right off back.
Aye. I can’t remember his name. Not Ackworth, oh anyway you might think of his name, I'd just like to know if it’s the same fella. How about the attendance man?
R- What, at school/
Yes.
R- Aye he used to come round.
Were he ever chasing you?
R- Well I were troubled a bit wi’ croup in winter time, a bad cough and if you went to the doctor to get a certificate you had to pay. And many a time I’d be off school a week, well if you'd been back a week or two and you were off a few days he’d be coming round would the attendance bloke to see what were to do. I remember one time he said to me mother, “You know very well a certificate should have been sent in.” Well, it were about 2/6d for a bottle of medicine then, for the doctor to come and give you a bottle of medicine without paying about another sixpence for a certificate. 'Cause you didn't know how long you were going to be off. But when I did leave school they gave you a book with all your attendances in every year and I had a good attendance record so they couldn't grumble at that.
(600)
How about School Inspectors coming round?
R- To school?
Aye, can you ever remember any of them coming round?
R- Yes they used to come round.
What happened then?
R- Well they used to look at your books and the teachers used to be dithering when they came round. 'Cause they'd stand at the front of the class and they didn't know who were who and they just pointed and asked ‘em a question. It might be about history, geography, or it might be a mental sum. Well if he picked on one or two good uns the teacher were preening herself a bit. [Fred laughs] If he picked on the first un what couldn’t answer owt she were a bit dithery then. And we can think about all them things now when we've got a lot older. I were fortunate they never picked on me and he never said owt about me books, so I must have been alright. I think meself he’d make a copy then he’d give it to the school master and it l be the school master what ud have to tell the teacher about it.
(35 mins)
Now when you were at school where were you living at, still living at...
R- Lincoln Road.
Lincoln Road aye. If somebody were ill, or died or were confined, would the neighbours help?
R- Yes. Aye they allus seemed to be a Coronation Street didn't it in them days, every street. [Fred is referring to a popular TV series that purported to portray typical Northern life where everyone in the street knew everybody else’s business.]
Aye. And they did muck in with each other.
(650)
Would you say they were, how did they help?
R- Well probably a woman ud have a black hat or sommat like that and she'd lend somebody else it or she might have a dark coloured costume and lend 'em that.
Aye that were for funeral like.
R- Yes. And probably she'd happen run to the undertaker for you, depending what circumstances were.
How about if somebody were ill?
R- Aye they were mostly neighbourly were all the people.
Do you think there were much borrowing went on?
R- No I don’t think there were a lot of borrowing, not where we were.
Did neighbours visit each other often, did you neighbours visit your house often?
R- Not unless there were sommat to tell or fetching sommat you know. Same as if somebody weren't so well, neighbour ud happen say I'm going down to the shop.
Yes. Would somebody ever come visiting while you were having a meal?
R- No, no I wouldn't say so. Only time ud be happen if there were any youngsters had come in and me mother ud happen, you know, give 'em a butty or sommat like that. And their mother might be coming looking for ‘em because it were tea time.
Aye. If somebody, say somebody had to go round to somebody's house with a message or something like that and they happen to land while they were having a meal. What do you think the reaction ud be like, you know, the people that had gone in, would they hang about or would they be wanting to get out again quick?
R- Aye you wanted to get out, you just felt uncomfortable when somebody were sat eating.
Aye, any idea why that is Fred?
R- No, I've no idea at all, only you had that feeling. It were very uncomfortable to go in at the middle of a meal. In fact, you know, you didn't go into houses a lot when we were mates, we didn't even knock at door, we used to stand at gate and shout, “Haydn!” And he’d come to the door, “I’ll be out in a minute.” Or he used to come to our house and I’d do the same. You didn't even knock at the door and unless it were raining, they were never asked to come in.
Aye. No, houses were private, weren’t they. Would you say that you know, like women during day that were at home, do you think they'd go round and have a cup of tea at somebody's house.
R- No that ud be off altogether. No tea supping like that.
Aye. What makes you so definite about that? You seem very sure about that.
R- 'Cause I've knocked about a lot and I were no dummy and I never saw it happening.
Yes.
R- Even, you could go a walk, happen round Thornton and happen call at somebody's house. There were no such thing as making you a cup of tea afore you were on your way. You'd happen get a drink of water might the lads. Sommat like that but no tea.
Did they talk on door steps? Say it were a grand summers night, would they..
R- Aye, talk on door steps. But I can remember going a walk round Thornton wi’ me father and there were an old fella lived where, what did they call that Nutter what went to Thornton?
Sidney?
R- Sidney? That would be the house where he went into. Going back a long while. And did they call it Barmagillia(?) or sommat, a plant what grows in water. [I think the plant was Balm of Gilliad.]
Yes, that's it, yes.
(750)
R - And me father knew this fella and he were stood at the door and they stopped talking and then he goes in and he fetched a glass of this out and he give me a drink and he give me dad a drink and then he took me in to look at this tree because I'd never seen this plant growing in this big bowl. I'd never seen one before and I don't know whether there's any about now or not but it were popular.
I think it was something like what they call a ginger beer plant.
(40 mins)
If you put ginger in it, It's ginger beer you know you can split a bit off it and start another, It’s like a culture. I think it's something similar to that. Aye I've heard of it before but not very often. Can you ever remember neighbours quarrelling or even fighting?
R- I can remember 'em quarrelling.
What was that generally over?
R - Coming home late, fellas coming home late. One fella in particular, he lived opposite us.
What were his name?
R- George Walton they called him.
Aye.
R- A real smart fella, time serving soldier, as smart a fella as you ever saw, and a nicer fella you never meet. But he used to come home happen twelve and half past twelve, and then there’d be a row. You could hear him, they've wakened us up sometimes when we were kids wi’ the row what were going on.
Where would he be while that time? 'Cause the pubs…?
R - In a club somewhere.
Aye. 'Cause police at that time were fairly hot on pub closing time weren’t they.
R- They were. Aye, he’d be in a club somewhere.
I mean it doesn’t seem to matter now a days but..
R- No. But he lived right opposite us and eh, there were some barneys aye.
(800)
Aye.
R- Following day, he’d never miss any work you know. He’d allus be up and at his work, following away at his looms morning following.
Aye. Can you remember any children at school that you'd call poor, in other words that were poorer than you.
R- Oh yes aye.
Aye. Were they treated any different to anybody else do you think?
R- At school?
Yes.
R- Yes I think they were. They kept away from 'em a lot did the teachers.
Why, any idea?
R- I wouldn't like to say. They were just outcasts.
Were there only so many in a class that teachers really wanted to bother wi’?
R- I know some they were very, very poor and there'd be two on 'em, they'll have finished now, they went into being ministers, they become ministers of chapels. They were very, very clever but they got it more when they left school, because they were never encouraged a lot at school.
Aye, who were they, what were their names.
R- Well you know that Penman what worked up there [at Bancroft] one time on
the boilers.
Aye. Penman aye.
R- Well this Daniel and Frank they'd be that lads uncles.
Aye, were they called Penman, Daniel and Frank Penman.
R- And there were others, some more lads and they’ve turned out very clever but they didn't get encouraged at school but they went to the night school after and they did better.
(850)
What made you think that they were poor, I know that you knew they were poor but..
R- Oh well there were times when, same as Ernest said, they'd come wi’ a boot on one foot and a clog on the other. They hadn't a pair of clogs. And well you couldn't say they had a pair of stockings on, they were more holes than what there were wool there.
Did they keep themselves clean?
R- As clean as they could do ‘cause I don't think they had much soap some of them houses and they'd no handkerchief, and I don’t know whether you remember like fustian jackets?
Aye.
R- They used to wipe their nose on the sleeve and it were all shiny. And they used to stink. Probably that were one reason why the teacher didn't go near them much.
Well, there you are.
R- But grand lads to play wi’, grand lads to know. I never had no bother I used to play wi’ ‘em.
What kind of families would say your parents thought of as rough?
R- Well I should think they went a drinking, neglected their children to go drinking and that ud be, they were dead against that.
Were there a lot of that went on Fred?
R- Aye a fair lot on it . And that were one thing me dad were allus dead against, he liked a drink his self but nobody had to go owt short when he were getting a drink.
(900)
That's it aye.
R- No, drink were the last thing.
Yes. Why do you think that some people had that attitude and some people didn't seem to care. I mean like you know, kids got neglected and what not. Any particular reason for it?
R- I think it were the way me father had been fetched up his self. Well you see with his father being a boozer and all that.
Yes.
R- And his idea were well he weren’t going to have us same way as what they'd been fetched up. You heard that wi’ a lot on 'em, even some of these lads I'm talking about now if they’re still living. I bet they aren’t boozers.
Yes.
R- They might have a drink or two but they'll not be boozers.
No, they've seen what it does.
R- They'll not neglect home.
(45 mins)
Yes I can understand that Fred. Can you remember there ever being soup kitchens in Earby? You know, free food for people?
R- No I can’t although I've heard them talk about 'em. They've been, when the strike were on in this Hugh Currer’s strike, they had soup kitchens then but I can’t remember it.
Aye. Was there ever a workhouse in Earby?
R- No, Skipton. But on your rates, I might have some old rates about yet, it were poor rate. You paid so much poor rate on 'em.
(950)
Yes.
R- That's gone off now hasn't it.
Yes. How about model lodging houses, was there one in Earby?
R- There weren’t a proper model but there were what they call Proffitt's lodging house. That were on Ireland Square. It ud be a big house and they took lodgers in.
Where’s Ireland Square?
R- It's where these new houses are built now on Water Street. They call it Shaw Square now. [Eunice Wormwell told me it used to be called Ireland Square because a lot of Irish families lived there at one time. Aspin Lane opposite was what Fred calls Muck Lane.]
Oh, you mean at top of Aspin Lane in front of the White Lion?
R- No. You know where the Liberal Club is at Earby?
Yes, it's the library, yes.
R- What's Library now. Well that side of the beck, it were built on to the end of the houses were the Library. It were the Liberal Club then and it were built on to them houses. There’d be a row at back single. And then I think there were a double row and then another single row. Four or else five rows of houses at back of there. You just went over a little old bridge where the Central Club is, where you turn up what we call Muck Street. [Aspin Lane]
Yes.
R- Well reight opposite that there's some new flats built.
Aye, that’s it, they've only just built them haven't they.
R - That's it aye.
Yes.
R- Aye well as soon as you went over the bridge this house were there, a big house, Proffitt's lodging house. And one of their daughters, Peggy, she were in the same class as me at school.
And who'd be lodging there? Would they be tramp weavers?
R- Tramp weavers aye.
SCG/15 April 2003
7,476 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/08
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 19TH OF OCTOBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
And we're going to go straight on now with this tape continuing on from 75/AH/07. Now then, we'd got to poor children hadn't we and rough families, that's it, soup kitchens, workhouse. Did you know anybody who went to the model lodging house, you know, who lived at the model lodging house?
R- No but I know this, when we were talking about poor children at school, it's just come to me now. They’re missing school and when you found out, they were in the workhouse at Skipton. They'd been taken down to the workhouse.
Ah. When you say they'd been taken down, what, by their parents?
R- No, by the Guardians I suppose.
Aye,
R- Probably their parents were in the workhouse an all. All the lot on 'em, all the family. Aye, it happened a time or two wi’ some at two families what I knew. And I do believe there were one called Smith and I lost touch wi’ 'em, they must have left school before I did, although they were the same age. I lost touch wi’ them but they called 'em Smith and I know him and his sister were in the workhouse once.
Aye. What did folk think about the workhouse?
R- Oh it were a bad job when they got there, last resort. I don't know whether you've ever been or not Stanley to one?
No, have you?
R- Aye, but it were just on the mend to what it were in them days, but I weren’t so old when I went.
When were this Fred?
R- I were wi’ a party and I were only sixteen.
So that ud be 1924.
R - Aye.
What was the idea of the party?
R- It was a party from Sunday School. The idea were, we got us tea there and then give ‘em a concert at night, give inmates a concert. singing. Well I never saw owt like some of 'em. Coming round wanting cigarettes, wanting baccy. I didn't smoke so, no you know. They were following you all ower, peeping round to see that nobody were watching 'em. Some of these lads what did smoke happen give one a fag and he’d go and tell somebody else.
Whereabouts were the workhouse?
R- Where Raikeswood Hospital is now.
Wait a minute. When you say where Raikeswood Hospital is now, I mean that wasn't the workhouse was it? That big building?
R- Aye, that were the workhouse. It might have had a bit added to now but it were the workhouse.
It's a fair big building isn't it.
R- Aye. And they said that you know, a lot of the brass
(50)
nuts in the boiler house and that, they'd been polished that much, they'd taken the edges off and they'd got to get Stillsons to loosen the nuts. And on a lot of brasswork, it had been polished that much they'd worn all the straight edges off 'em.
Aye because they..
R- They had to do sommat. Wheeling coal from one side of the stack to t’other and wheeling it back again, they had to work. And I suppose that was to get 'em going again. Then they'd get a bit of food. They didn't just get to idle their time away when they went in there because that ud be no good to 'em. But some had to chop firewood. They nearly all had a task to do. And as I say like, moving coal and moving stones and moving bricks and gardening. And one of these lads said that they went to school while they were there. There were a school in a way for 'em, a bit of education.
What did they think about the job at the workhouse.
R- Oh, they didn't like.
(5 mins)
Aye.
R- No. Although probably they'd get better treated than they did at home. They'd be sure of a meal of some description. But there were one fella in Earby, he died not long since, and he said they were the happiest days of his life when he were taken into care, even in the workhouse. He’d been in the workhouse several times and he’d been in children's homes a few times.
What were his name?
R- Er, it’ll come to me. He were really interesting to listen to and they allus called him Walker. And he allus got Taffy Walker, and he weren’t a Welsh man but with going in these homes and that he’d drifted into Wales and when he were old enough he went down the mines and that’s why he got Taffy. He were in the mines in Wales. Then as he got older and looked after himself like, he came back to Earby again then and he got wed in Earby. Oh he were a real grand fella. But just imagine saying them were the happiest days of his life. He said him, and I think he had two sisters, they’d be on a cart, they'd gone to bed and then they'd be out of bed and they'd be on a flat cart, horse and cart wi’ a few sticks of furniture and happen flitting from here to Colne.
Moonlight.
R- Moonlight flit.
Aye.
R- Aye. Well he said just imagine that for a life. He said you were sure of shelter when you were in a home. And he said when you were in these children’s homes you did get educated as well.
(100)
Yes. Can you remember how widows used to go on?
R- Oh they'd a poor carry on, especially if they'd any children. Unless they had a few sisters and that sort of thing to help ‘em out. But I don't know how they'd go on if they’d no relations to help 'em out. It must have been hell on earth for 'em, especially if they had a youngster or two and they couldn't go out to work.
Yes. How about evictions?
R- Aye, there were one or two evictions but it's just a faint memory, I wouldn't like to say who they were.
Aye, that's it aye. If somebody in your family were ill did you have any relations lived near by that could come to help?
R- Well aye. Me mother had a brother and sister in Earby and me father had a sister in Earby.
Did they ever come visiting?
R- Aye they used to come visiting.
When would that be Fred?
R- That ud be at Sundays mostly. Sunday tea. That were the visiting day.
What would tea be?
R- Cold beef and jelly and custard or happen prunes. Prunes were one of the popular does.
Aye, that couldn't be so bad. You know the definition of a pessimist don’t you? A fella that eats All Bran with prunes.
R- Aye! [Fred laughs]
What social class do you think your family belonged to. You know we start talking about social classes.
R- Well they'd be second class happen. They weren’t at the bottom.
Aye, like upper end of the working class like.
R- Better end of the working class. And all due respects to me father and mother I think were that.
Yes.
R- They were, you know, she were a good house-keeper and he were a good worker.
Would you say that your carry on were fairly good compared with other people?
R - Yes.
In the same class like.
R- Yes.
I mean, you realise I don’t like talking about classes. I think it's all wrong but it's just the way you have to describe these things. What kind of job did other people, other men in your street have? Were they sommat like your dad's or..
R- Weavers mostly. Happen an odd tackler or two.
What were thought of as rough streets in Earby?
R- Aspin Lane that were called Muck Street.
(150) (10 mins)
R- It were a pity like in a way because it ud be a respectable street at one time, one of the oldest streets in Earby.
Aye.
R- And it ud be respectable and then it gradually drifted and drifted while nearly anybody could live up there. And then there were Dock Yard, that got it name with somebody what had big mill, spinning mill, and he went to Liverpool and fetched a lot of young women and fellas back from Liverpool docks and they used to call 'em Liverpool Irish. Actually it were Albert Street, but it allus got Dock Yard wi’ all these Liverpool Irish coming.
Aye. That's been knocked down now hasn't it. That were at the front of the mill there.
R- yes.
Aye. Who were the mill owner that brought them back?
R- I think they called him Dugdale.
That ud be going back a bit.
R- Yes, aye.
Aye. And which were the better streets
R- School Lane, that were one of the better streets. School Lane and Colne Road and that were real good and this bit of a street up here were.
Stoneybank. Well, it weren’t Stoneybank Road then, it were a couple of names weren’t it.
R- Aye but they were built by what they call the Bailey family. It were a fairly wealthy family.
Aye.
R- And a lot of relations all lived in 'em once of a day. You'd a job to get a house up here, which you have to-day. They're allus occupied.
Who would you say were the most important people in the town.
R- Well I mentioned one and that were that Mr. Lindley, he were a very important man. I should think if anybody had any troubles and they went to him he’d help 'em all he could, he were a Quaker.
Aye? Were there a few Quakers in Earby?
R- Oh yes aye.
Were there a meeting house?
R- No. It were at Salterforth.
Aye.
R- Yes you used to go to Salterforth, there’d be quite a few.
Aye. What did you think about the police in them days.
R- Oh you were forced to respect ‘em”! [Fred laughs] You'd get a clout across your lug hole, or sommat like that.
Were you frightened of 'em?
R- Yes. Aye if you saw the bobbies we used to say “Bobby’s coming!” And you'd to walk respectable and be respectable when they were about. No clarting on. It were one of them sort of does where they knew everybody.
(200)
They made it in there way to get to know.
How did they treat you?
R- Well I think they frightened you more than owt. I can give you one instance, that lad that I used to go mates w’ Haydn. I told you his father played the piano at the Palace at Nelson and then he went wrong. And he flit back to Earby then did Haydn and his mother and then she had another youngster late on in life and like it were a bit, it weren’t just right it were a bit retarded. Well she'd to come and live with her sister and I suppose it would be her sister that helped 'em a lot and she used to get maintenance money off her husband, when she got any. Well, one particular time, they called him Fieldhouse what were the sergeant [Fred laughs] And me brother and me we were in the house and it were one holidays and he only lived just across street did Haydn and he came and he says “You're wanted at our house.” Me brother and me, we’d no idea what were up. When we got in, there's sergeant Fieldhouse there. “Now then! What have you been doing lately?” “Nothing.” “Are you sure? Reight then, don't let me catch you doing owt wrong!” What a shock it were when the sergeant were there, we thought what’s he there for? Anyway, Haydn weren’t so old but he know what they’d come for, it were sommat about maintenance money.
(15 mins)
We says to Haydn when we got out. “What's he there for?” He says “Oh, it's sommat about some money what me dad should pay to me mam.” That were another do like where he frightened us. “Well don’t do owt wrong!” [Fred laughs].
Were there any sort of persons that your parents, say when it got round to you getting wed, were there anybody that your mother and father didn't want you to marry?
R- No I don't think so.
No. Course I mean there wouldn't be anything like any coloured people in Earby then.
R- No. I don't think so. No there were no coloureds.
Aye, do you ever remember anybody being called a real gentleman or a real lady?
R- Aye, there were some of these manufacturers wives. Manufacturers and their wives like, you know they were, you could call ‘em gentlemen I think.
(250)
Aye, why?
R- Well, although they were bosses and that they weren’t really bad in the bottom. The workers had to work in them days to keep them going. It weren’t as if they got owt for nowt in them days didn't a lot of them manufacturers. They started up with a little bit of money and it were a gamble and I should think a lot on ‘em, if there were anybody in difficulties they'd think nowt about giving ‘em a bit of sommat.
Do you think they were respected for having got on.
R- A lot on ‘em were by a lot of people but you allus got that other sort what didn't want to see anybody get on. They wouldn't get on their selves and they didn't want to see anybody else get on.
Yes I know what you mean, yes.
R- But I allus found a few on 'em alright. There were just one or two what you might call jumped up and them were no good at all. But these what had invested their own money and worked hard, I admired them. And you know they'd be dressed up when other folk weren’t.
Aye. Who would you say were good men in Earby then? You know men who were talked about.
R- Well this Bracewell Hartley, I knew him particularly well and he had a brother called William who were retired and he were a grand fella. And on the same street there’d be another..
Wait a minute, one question there, were they any relation to Joe Hartley?
R - Yes. Bracewell were Joe's father. But when I'm talking about jumped up, you've got such as Joe.
Aye, 'cause Joe were weren’t he?
R- He were jumped up. But his father and mother were grand people.
Yes. Course I don’t suppose Joe ever had to work for his money in his life did he.
R- No.
And that’d partly be the trouble I think.
R- That's it aye.
Course there's an old saying isn't there that covers it in Lancashire. Clogs to Clogs in three generations. You can see how it happens. Father and mother are workers, work the job up, the son’s never had to work and thinks it all comes naturally and things start declining.
R- They do, yes it is so.
Yea. Aye it seems to work that way Fred. Now then, we'll change the subject a bit. I know your interested in this – Health. Did your family
(300)
have any special cures for illness or sickness you know.
R- Aye he were a bit on the herb style were me father.
Aye.
R- And it were allus th’old do in spring, Brimstone and Treacle.
Aye.
R- I don't know why.
Aye, I don't know. I know me mother used to give us that. I don't know, they had some funny ideas about Brimstone and Treacle, it used to do everything from cure bloody spots and black heads to…
R- Aye.
I don't know. Would you say the family called the doctor very often?
R- No.
If he did come you'd have to pay him?
R- Yes.
Can you ever remember any difficulty over paying him?
R - No, no.
No, did your mother and father belong to a Friendly Society or anything like that?
R- Me father belong to the Oddfellows for a long while.
Where were they? Did they call 'em a tent, Oddfellows?
R- A Lodge.
Aye a Lodge, were there one in Earby?
R- Yes.
Whereabouts were that?
(20 mins)
R- Well they had it in the Baptists school a lot. And 1 think at start where the Liberal Club, where the Library is to-day. There were an institute there before the Liberal Club were built. And I think it would start there, the Oddfellows. In fact me father were one of the founders of this Oddfellows in Earby. He used to have a great big scroll wi’ all the names on what had started it up.
Aye. And what exactly was the Oddfellows?
R- Well it were a Society, they paid so much a week and if you were ill, you know, you got about ten shillings a week when you were off work. And if you were off work a long while and you needed any convalescence they had some convalescent homes at various places. They’d send you to a convalescent home.
Had they any political ideas or anything like that?
R- No 1 don't think there were, no 1 don't think so. In fact I think me brother, he'd be in the Oddfellows up to him dying. He joined when he were a young lad.
Is it still going on?
R - I don't think so.
No. And if your dad were off sick would he get any money off his employers or off the trade union?
R - No.
Nothing of that sort. Would he get Lloyd George?
R- Yes. But before Lloyd George came in there were the Oddfellows.
(350)
Yes.
R- They were like a friendly society..
Yes.
R- Where they got about ten shillings if you were off your work..
Yes, that's it aye. And did he belong to a hospital scheme at all. You know, like penny hospital or owt like that.
R- Well, it came in later. It were when I were working that came in.
What were that for? That wasn't for Reedyford was it?.
R- No, he went to Burnley.
Burnley. Aye. Because that’s how Reedyford were built, that hospital there. That house were left ‘em and that's how they built it there wi’ penny's and twopences. How about insurance, you know, or death insurance, you know? Were any of you insured?
R- Aye. Me brother and me father had no insurance and me mother hadn't any insurance but we were insured me brother and me. We were on that penny a week.
That's it.
R- It used to be a penny a week.
What were it, Blackburn Friendly Society, there used to be one weren’t there..
R – Aye, and Prudential were this one we were in. And when 14/18 war were on they fetched another insurance scheme out and it wore sommat. money were intended for war. I allus remember it were when, I don't know how many year it were but we'd draw twenty pound each would me brother and me. I'd be about twenty when we drew it. It had been in a long while. And he were coming round collecting were this collector, me mother says “Oh it's up now is this here, this twenty pounds.” Well anyway, “If you read the small print, it's up now but you can’t draw it while next year. You'll finish paying but you can’t draw it while next year.” So me mother says “I want it now!” He says “If you get it now, you'll only get eighteen pounds.” So she says “Well I'm having eighteen pound!” I allus remember that and so she drew thirty six pound and me father got nine pound, I got nine pound, me brother got nine pound And you know, we’d nine pounds apiece out of the job.
Oh that weren’t so bad.
R- Well, that were a good lift, only th’old do. Read the small print.
Aye.
(400)
What did you do with your nine pound?
R- Well me father and me, we put it both together and we built a pigeon hut.
Aye.
R- Aye we built a pigeon hut.
Now then, so you were in the pigeon job were you, you and your dad.
R- Aye we were in the pigeon job a bit, aye.
What, did you fly 'em, did you race 'em?
R- Aye, aye.
Oh, pigeon clocks?
R- Yes.
What were you in, which federation?
Earby, they had a big club in Earby then and then you were in North East Lancashire.
Aye, where did you race from?
R- Just on the fields on here. Back of here.
Yes. aye.
R- We raced to there from Congleton and as far as Nantes. We hadn't a lot of success, we just had a bit. I were second from Jersey one time.
How did you send 'em, by train?
(25 mins)
R- Aye they all went by train then. You'd to take 'em all to the Station Hotel and stamp 'em all at Station Hotel. And then just across on to the railway.
[Edgar Wormwell told me that they used to clock birds in at the Clarence Club. This was at the bottom of Stoneybank and in 2003 is a builder’s yard]
Aye. How long were you in the pigeon club Fred?
R- Oh, I’d be in about four year and then I got wed and couldn't afford to keep 'em then.
Oh, did your father keep on with 'em?
R- No we selled out.
Aye.
R- It weren’t long you know, and then he built this place up here and he give up wi’ all the pens on there then.
Aye. Did any of the family ever have an operation at home.
R- No.
Can you ever remember your mother or your father on about anybody having an operation at home?
R- Only for tonsils, I've known 'em get their tonsils out at home, that were all.
Aye. How long ago's that, how recent?
R- Oh it ud be fifty year back or sommat like that. They used to do it on the table in houses you know. And happen some folk wi’ an abscess or a carbuncle or sommat like that. They used to came and lance 'em and doctor 'em up at home,
Aye that's It.
R- It were all done on the kitchen table.
Aye. Let's see your brother were younger than you were he?
R- Older.
So you won't remember anybody being born at all. Were you born at home do you know?
R- Yes.
And your brother?
R- Yes.
That ud be the usual thing then?
R- Oh it were the usual thing.
Aye. Midwife?
R - Well they used to call her nurse.
Yes, nurse aye.
(450)
R- Aye she'd be midwife but now you mention midwife, that Jimmy that you were talking to last night, his mother were midwife in Earby, one on 'em like.
What were her name?
R- Heap. Aye, what did they call her? She never got called Mrs Heap. Martha. And when anybody died she used to lay ‘em out and all that carry on. And anybody coming into world she fetched 'em into world. I should think a lot, you know round my age, she’d fetch 'em all into the world.
A bit like Edith Barlow.
R- That's it aye. She were well known weren’t she.
Aye. Edith. Oh Christ, you know what she used to say? She always used to say that if women had the first child and the men had the second there’d be a hell of a lot of families with an odd number of kids! [Stanley and Fred laugh] She’d be reight an all I think.
R- Eh she were a case weren’t she. Typical weren’t she. Big strong woman.
Aye. And I mean they wouldn’t really be trained would they.
R- No. Same as Jimmy's mother, she'd only pick it up.
Just grown up wit job like but useful women to have about.
R- Oh they were.
Aye. Were there any diseases that the family particularly worried about catching?
R- Oh aye. Diphtheria and Scarlet Fever, them were two terrible does weren’t they.
In them days when we were kids. Smallpox came over occasionally. Just now and again smallpox came.
Aye, can you ever remember any of your mates having scarlet fever, diphtheria or owt like that?
R- Yes, aye.
Aye. Where did they generally take 'em like, where were the isolation hospital for Earby?
R- At Barlick, I think.
That's it aye. There were one at Barlick, the fever hospital. [At Bank Hill, Lane Ends].
How did they take ‘em?
R- Now then, I wouldn't like to say, happen push 'em on a cart.
I were just wondering you know, whether they had a different coloured ambulance. Because I know like, I can remember when I were at school, like during the war. In Stockport they had a different coloured ambulance. It were a yellow ambulance and they used to call it the fever ambulance.
R- Well, I don't know whether they'd have owt like that. Because if anybody were taken ill in Earby or Barlick then, they used to have to go on the train, they had a bier like,
(500)
a stretcher on wheels like. And you used to get on train at Earby into the luggage van and then they got off at Brierfield and then they had to run to hospital. They used to run wi’ it. 'Cause Brierfield station were nearer the hospital than Burnley station.
Yes, that's it aye and it were down hill from there an all, aye.
R- Aye and they used to have to run wi’ 'em and they used to fetch 'em back home the same way. It were all done by the St. John's, they did it. St. John's Ambulance Brigade.
St. John's Ambulance brigade. Did you know any children with rickets Fred?
R- Yes aye. Bent, both legs. You know, some on 'em bow legged some on 'em. Knock kneed and crippled all ways I should think.
What caused it Fred?
R- Well it were malnutrition weren’t it, mostly.
Yes. The funny thing is, until I started doing these tapes I never really thought about it. But now when I see somebody your age or Ernie’s age, like Ernie’s legs, that’s why they are like that.
R- Aye.
(30 mins)
When I see anybody like that I think straight away, bloody hell, he had a rough bringing up. Because that's what it were. Ernie once said something to me, a very perceptive thing. He said “None of Nutters kids were bow legged.”
R - No, no.
And that's about the size of it you know.
R- Aye. I know one or two, they’re the same as Ernest and they all say it were the way they were fetched up when they were a kid you know. Big family and some of the older end, they were fetched up rough.
If, in them days if a woman hadn’t got enough milk for a child what would she do?
R- Well I think there were a few powdered does. Like Glaxo and that sort of stuff.
Did you ever hear of anybody nursing somebody else's child?
R- Not as I know of anyone. But I've heard about it being done.
Like if two women had a child at once and one's got plenty of milk and the other hasn't got enough.
R- Aye. What do they call ‘em.
Wet nurses.
R- Wet nurse. Aye.
(550)
‘Cause it’s like going back to slavery, they used to have these black women fetching white children up.
Yes aye. Was your mother particular about disinfecting the house or catching flies? You know, keeping stuff clean or owt like that?
R - Oh yes aye. Summer time we allus had fly catchers up. [Fred laughs]
What sort?
R - Them sticky uns.
Oh aye them..
R- Them were the only things like in them days. And then she used to put some stuff in the window bottom. Eh, what the heck did they call it, Pennv Royal or sommat. Oil of Penny Royal, she used to sprinkle it in the window bottom. And she said it kept flies away from windows did that. Whether it did or not I don't know, but you could smell it as soon as you come in the house.
Have you ever heard of Penny Royal being used for anything else?
R- Penny Royal Tea.
Yes, now what did they use that for?
R- Well it were colds I think, colds.
R- And then did some of the women take it for their periods or sommat of that?
That's it Fred yes. I have an idea, I don't know, I’ll have to have a word with a chemist and find out what Penny Royal were, but it reckoned to be, if somebody were, if somebody had missed a period you know and they thought they were expecting a good strong dose of Penny Royal, a hot bath and as much gin us you could drink and it reckoned to work wonders.
R - Aye they did aye.
Now one thing you were saying, I'll go back to it, about your dad being a bit of a one for herbs. When you say that, do you mean he used to collect herbs?
R- No, he’d buy 'em at the herb shop. Fennel, that were one of his does.
Fennel, yes. Where were the herb shop?
R- There were some herbs what he did used to get out of the fields for back ache and that’s a white flower, he used to gather theme.
Not cow parsley?
R- No. There's a lot up here. And a lot of farmers used to have it hung up.
(600)
Was that wild Garlick?
R- No. It’ll happen come to me. Like there’s things you forget.
Aye that’s it. No you're alright.
R- They never mention that doesn’t folk.
No. Whereabouts were the herb shop in Earby?
R- Well it isn't there now. You know where Water Street is? There's a paper shop on Water Street isn't there, tobacconist and paper shop. Then there were Tyrrell's opticians. Then there's a house and then next to that there were a shop and you went in at the corner, that were allus the herb shop in Earby.
Did they sell anything else besides herbs?
R- Aye they used to sell toffee's. But it were, they could get any sort of herbs there I should think.
Could you get a drink of Dandelion and Burdock there?
R - Yes home brewed sort of.
Home brewed aye. There used to be a place in Stockport until, oh, until about ten year since and you could still go in and get a drink of either the Sarsaparilla or Dandelion and Burdock. Eh, it were good stuff. He used to make it his self. Course that's gone now, that's finished. It used to smell lovely that shop an all when you went in.
R- Aye, well they used to be reight old time you know. And all these tins and bottles and Parkinson's pills and Stothard’s pills.(?)
Aye. Tell me sommat, you've reminded me of sommat else. How were your mother for taking pills?
R - No I don't think she ever took any.
Wasn’t there anything she took regular?
No. All her drink were coffee. It cured everything did coffee.
Aye, well I don't know there might be a lot in that.
A- That were her idea.
There might be a lot of truth in that.
(35 mins)
R- Me father used to take Beecham’s Pills, I can remember that.
He took Beecham's pills did he?
R- He were a big believer in Beecham’s pills.
Aye. I’ve heard Ernie say that his mother, even in the days when they had no money, she allus had a twist of Beecham’s pills about and allus had at least one before she went to bed at night.
(650)
R- And I can tell you just a bit of a tale about that. It were a farmer and he had a couple of sons I think and two or three daughters. And he’d come off the farm, he were retired and he’d been in bed quite a while. He were upstairs in bed and they were sitting up wi’ him day after day, wanting him, hoping he were going to die sort of thing. And they couldn't find out where he had his bank book or where he had his money or owt. And it didn't matter, when they asked him he wouldn't tell 'em. And they knew he must have some money somewhere. And then one night they thought well he's going, he’d been laid there quiet for a long while and then he looks up, he says “John.” “Yes dad.” “In that drawer downstairs in the sideboard.” “Yes dad.” “On the left hand side.” “Yes Dad?” So their ears pricked up. He said “Will you go down and get us a Beecham’s pill?” [Fred laughs] They all thought he were going to tell ‘em! And they telled the tale them selves did these fellas like. They were thinking they were going to get to know sommat. He’d be pulling their leg.
You know that reminds me of, now wait a minute, who were it. Do you know I can’t remember who it were. This dad were dying and they were all gathered round the bed you know. Anyway they’re all gathered round the bed and he was sinking fast, you know.
(700)
And he called one of lads over to him and he couldn’t speak hardly. And this lad had to bend right down and get his ear right close. The old fella says “Don't forget to take the empties back.”
R – [Fred laughs]
And there were some empty bloody beer bottles. All he were worried about were whether they'd remember to take the empty beer bottles back, you know.
R – [Fred laughs] Aye, get sommat back on ‘em!
I says to him, I says to this lad I said, “Oh, he’d be like wandering a bit, you know, fading.” He says “Were he buggery! He were making sure we took empties back!” Aye, it's funny isn't it things like that. Anyway your father's job. Your father were a tackler weren’t he. Whereabouts did he work.
R- He worked at this Bracewell Hartley's most of his time.
That's it aye. What hours did he work Fred?
R- Six o'clock at morning while half past five at night.
Yes. Well what were breakfast time, when were that?
R - Half an hour breakfast.
What were that, eight o'clock?
R- Right, till half past.
Yes.
R – Mm. Then an hour for dinner, then till half past five at night.
How much did your dad earn, any idea?
R- No that were one thing I never knew. I don't think me mother even knew an all. He used to give her house-keeping money and then he used to do the saying up and then they wore buying a house. I suppose he paid the mortgage but she were never ever short.
Would his wage go up after 1918, after the war.
R - They went up a bit and then they came down you know with a bump. Because just after the war they were reight up at top and then they came down and down and down and they came nearly down to where they were before the war.
Aye 'cause there were a hell of a boom after the first world war weren’t there.
(750)
(40 mins)
Was he paid when he were on holiday?
R- No.
Did he ever have a part time job?
R – No, other than gardening, that were..
Can you ever remember him having an accident at work?
R - No.
If he had had an accident would he have got any compensation?
R - Doubtful.
Aye. Do you know of anybody that's ever had an accident at work and got compensation?
R- Well in weaving in Earby, may be the same in Barlick they had a private insurance of their own had the manufacturers and it were like getting blood out of a stone getting owt out of them. We once had a bit of a test case. Me wife fell and broke her wrist in the mill and we’d to go all the way to Burnley on the bus and that on the morning following. So I say's what about some compensation, how do we go on about it. And the manager said what for? I says for me wife breaking her wrist. Well he says, it were after half past five. I says it doesn’t matter, they don't go out of the mill while after half past five and she broke it before she got to the door. She banged her head an all and another manufacturer, he came to me and he says oh Fred I want you to take this test case on, and he says I'll back you up 'cause I want to know if anybody has an accident at our place and it's very, very serious how I'm going to be fixed because if I can’t draw
(800)
out of that, I'm going to throw out and go into another.
What do you mean, with it being after half past five?
R - No, this insurance scheme, they wouldn't pay out do you see. Well if somebody had an accident, happen got fast in the belts and got killed or sommat like that, were they insured, would they be able to get owt for 'em. So I stuck out wi’ this here case and she got about three and odd a week. Three bob a week I think, wife got. And me Aunt Maggie says “When's Margery going back to work?” I says “When she's better.” She says “Well, you know she's been off ten week now Fred” As though she were paying the ruddy money out! I says, “Well, when the doctor says she can go back to work, she'll go back to work.” She says “Well, you know they can’t pay compensation for ever!” I says “What, three bob a week?” She says “It all adds up you know!” Well I mean they were, me aunty Maggie and me Uncle Willy, he were managing director there. Oh, paying three bob a week out, his premiums ud happen be going up or sommat like that ‘cause you'd had a claim.
Sounds unbelievable doesn’t it nowadays.
R- Aye.
I mean it's alreight but I mean that were nowt then, it were only one visit from the doctor and a bottle of medicine weren’t it.
(850)
R- That's it aye. We’d to go to Burnley, I'd to get a day off me work to take her to Burnley. We went at, I think the buses ran at ten to nine then and it were ten to five when we got back at nights.
Were that to hospital or to the board?
R - Hospital.
Did you have to go in front of a board or anything like that?
R- No.
It was all done through the firm?
R- It were a fella down Earby, you'd to go and see a fella down Earby. I got a certificate off the doctor. And I’d to take this certificate to this fella down Earby and then he give me another certificate to say that we were paying into this hospital scheme. You know, penny a week or sommat like that. I were a member of that.
R- And that's, my wife could get treated for nowt then.
Yes. But as regards the insurance money itself. How did you go on about drawing that. What did you have to do to draw that insurance money.
R- Oh it just came to the mill and they gave me it at the mill. I used to just sign.
Aye.
R- Signed every week.
Yes that's it, yes that's another funny thing. Well I say a funny thing, that’s another thing you see, if you talk to anybody about the history of that period they say one of the finest things that ever happened were the Workman’s Compensation Act of I think 1906. And the Compensation Act was, it wasn't a government scheme, it was the government making it compulsory for employers to run their own scheme. It was all handled round here by the Manufacturers Associations, and in fact in the finish they had, I'm not sure, but I think the offices are still there at Blackburn. It was nearly all done from Blackburn by an insurance company and nearly all these manufacturers Associations worked through them.
(900),
R- Yes.
And as I say it's always said to be a great thing for the workmen, you know he knew that if he had an accident he could draw compensation. But in point of fact when you talk to people a lot of 'em had never heard about it and they say, as you say, it were like getting blood out of a bloody stone. Because I mean, the manufacturers weren’t noted for being open handed were they?
R- No.
They didn't want to know.
(45 mins)
R- No, they didn't want any paying out or owt like that.
And that was going, it was certainly going before 1910 because I have a letter book at home, and this manufacturer’s writing to somebody who's put some gas fittings in and they were leaking and he said, and he actually said, 'In these days of workmen's compensation I should think you would be more careful.’ So it must have been a big thing on their minds and yet they never paid anything out you know, it makes you wonder.
R- I can remember, that mate of mine Haydn, he worked at Birley's when I were there and all the electric lights, they were just electric wire you know, and a little shade on, no tubing. But on top it were split, you know, it weren’t proper conduit. It were split and somehow or another it fused and it went up this here wire and then it were running on another wire at top you know.
(950)
In a nick and then there were some dawn dropped down and set fire. A lot of them they wore caps in there, I don't know why like. And Haydn gets his cap off and he's dabbing this fire out wi’ his cap. Well when he’d finished it's all burnt is his cap so me father took it across to the office at the other side. He says we’ve had a fire. What with? A fuse. Well what about that cap? Me dad says it belongs one of the weavers, he’s dabbed the fire out over his looms with it. The manager says well, that weren’t his job! Me dad says I’ve come to see about a new cap for him. The manager says no new cap. He shouldn’t have touched that fire. Me dad says they’re only eighteen pence! The manager says I don’t care. He shouldn’t have touched the fire. [Fred laughs] Me dad bought him a new cap himself out of his own pocket. They wouldn’t even buy him a new cap, might have saved themselves hundreds of pounds worth of damage.
He should have let the bloody mill burn down. [Stanley laughs]
R - Aye, aye he said nothing to do with a weaver hadn't a fire in the mill!
Eh, bloody hell.
R - Well it's first instinct isn't it when there's a fire, th’art going to try and put it out.
Course it is. Aye. But they didn't want to pay....
R- And them were the good old days.
Aye, he didn't want to pay out one and a tanner for a new cap Fred, that were all it were.
R- Aye.
Aye, as you say, the good old days.
(998)
SCG/16 April 2003
7,425 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/09
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 16TH OF NOVEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
So we're carrying straight on now from the last tape we did which was 78/AH/08. And we’re still talking about your dad and his work. Was he ever out of work?
R- Not because he hadn't any work no, but he were out of work when he were put on dole to play for a week. Week off or sommat like that but he were never out of work.
Yes.
R- Never out of a job, we'll put it that way.
So you draw a distinction between being laid off for a week because of bad trade and being actually out of work?
R- He still had a job to go back to when trade mended.
Yes, so that was fairly common then was it Fred?
R- Oh very common.
When you say very common, how often?
R- Well you might go about six months and then you come to play off you might work a week, play a week and then go back for a fortnight and have another week off. If trade got bad and they were stock piled in the warehouse.
Just tell me again, which mill was your dad working for?
R- A. J. Birley's, Albion Mill when he finished.
Yes, would they be weaving for orders Fred or would they be weaving for stock?
R- No they wove a lot to stock 'cause they had like these continuous orders.
Yes.
R- But I suppose the merchants only took it as they wanted it.
That's it.
R- The manufacturer, he'd have to risk all the stock.
So Birley, old AJ, if he thought there were a chance of getting rid of the cloth later like. If he’d got some yarn in cheap he’d keep weaving even though the cloth weren’t going out of the warehouse.
R- That's it, yes.
As long as he were weaving cheap cloth.
R- I suppose he had a limit to the amount of money he could safely build up in a stock.
Yes that's it. What sort of time would we be talking about now Fred, about what year would we be talking about now?
R- 1930's,
Aye and thirty's weren’t so good in Earby were they on the quiet.
R - No they were the worst, it were a real slump in Earby then in the thirty's.
Starting when Fred?
R- Well I should say about 1930 itself.
Yes.
(50)
R- Actually there were three firms weaving at Albion.
Who were they?
R - There were AJ. Birley, James Watson and Nutters [Nutter Brothers] They were a part of Grove were Nutters, Nutters from Grove but it weren’t Nutters from Barlick. It was Earby Nutters. And then AJ had these thousand looms in Victoria Mill. And Watsons, they more or less went out, they were slipping a bit. Nutters, they banked and AJ got Watson’s to move up New road. And then he took all Albion Mill over did AJ Birley and he moved all his looms from Victoria and then they were all under one engine.
How many looms were there in the Albion then when AJ finished gaiting up?
Yes.
R - ten fifty six. [1,056]
Aye.
R- I think they had about twelve hundred and forty when he had both sides going.[Albion and Victoria]
Aye. Still ten fifty six, it were still a handy number of looms weren’t it.
R- It were a fair do. And many a time they'd have nine hundred I should think on what they call Limbricks that were a fine quality cloth.
Yea, What were them woven on, a plain loom?
R - Plain, just plain but they were all Egyptian weft and Egyptian warp. And then that seemed to slip a bit and they went on to Fibros then. That's spun stuff, I should think there weren’t a lot on that Fibro when they started.
(5 mins)
That, would that be acetate yarn?
R- Well they called it Fibro.
A similar stuff to that Lustrafil..
R - Yes.
They made that out of wood shavings. Rayon that's it.
R- It’s broken up and spun isn’t it. Broken rayon then spun. [What Fred is saying is that the rayon monofilament is broken down into staple and then spun like cotton fibre.]
Aye.
R - It gets all sorts of name doesn't it, Fibro and Spun. I just forget the other name but it has three names. But they used to weave some top quality stuff but they were very very strict on the job but weft you know, was real good tackle. It ud be about 58's or sommat like that would weft.
Aye.
R- And the yarn ud be about 62s or 64s.
Is that reight?
R- Yes
That were fine stuff then.
(100)
R - And some on ‘em had a 101 pick to inch, a fair lot of pick in. But in a museum down at London there is a piece of Limbrick cloth in a frame and it's come off a mummy. And that were similar weaving as what they were weaving at Birley's. Similar pick and similar reed.
Aye?
R- And similar counts and it were absolutely perfect, for no reedyness, bang on. As good as what they were weaving at Birley's.
Aye.
R- And it's still in the museum now.
I think I've heard about that. It come out of one of the pyramid's or sommat didn't it.
R- Aye, it has counts on and all.
Aye. So on the whole, was everybody in Earby weaving fairly good stuff then like, I mean towns use to get a name for weaving different sorts of stuff didn't they.
R- That's it aye.
I mean Nelson were always noted for good cloth weren’t it?
R- They were.
And Burnley were allus a rag shop.
R- That's it aye, Burnley printers and that. They all went for printing didn't they.
Aye. That's it aye. So Earby were like fairly good cloth would you say.
R- They ware fairly good. Nutter's at Grove, they were on Burnley stuff you know. That were what you might call the rag shop in Earby. But Birley's and that James Watson’s they were on very high quality stuff.
Oh, and Nutter's were the ones that banked. [1932]
R- Aye.
Could they be weaving, when you say they were on like Burnley stuff, I mean they wouldn't be weaving for somebody in Burnley.
R- Oh no.
They'd be weaving for their own orders like.
R- Yes but they used to call it Burnley cloth.
That's it yes, I understand you Fred.
R- They were all like common plain uns, no pick much in ‘em and you know, shoddy weft, shoddy warp.
Anyway to get back to your dad. When he were unemployed, how did the family go on. You know, was there any dole, unemployment pay or owt.
R- Aye, well he were never out of work when we weren’t working. We were grown up when he come out of work. And aye, there were a bit of dole. About, happen seventeen shilling or sommat like that for him and me mother but it didn’t seem to affect us much ‘cause he allus had plenty of hens on and he could get catched up with a bit of work there when he had a week off. Sometimes it were beneficial for him. But it were a pity for others.
That wasn't general then?
R- No. No you’d never have any help from the Board of Guardians then because you were all working.
Nor any other charity?
R - No.
If you were really badly off, you know, I know we’ve talked about the workhouse haven’t we before, but apart from the workhouse was there any other relief for somebody that was really badly off.
(150)
R- Not to my knowing.
I mean did the church do anything or the Salvation Army or soup kitchens?
R- No, no I don't think it ever got so bad but 1 will say this, 1 can say it now like me fathers gone and me mother. There were folk got food parcels off me father, they never knew where they came from.
Aye?
R- And there’d be other people like me dad and they'd know somebody that were in a very, very bad way and well me father used to go to this Albert Bailey's that were down at bottom and he’d write a bit of an order out, like will you deliver that and nothing said.
(10 Mins)
R- And probably there were other people what were just a bit better off what ud do the same for somebody that were you know, happen children poorly.
You’d say that that were perhaps fairly general.
R- Oh he did it many a time. And I only know him, there’d be other folk as well what were doing it.
And what do you think would be his reason for that Fred. I mean that might sound a silly question but I mean can you make a guess as to what his reason would be for that, do you know?
R- Well he’d feel sorry for 'em and all that. You might call it Socialism. Like, I don't know.
Yes. Oh it's as good a name for it as any Fred. It's as good a name for it as any. And how did. you know, how did the family get to know about it?
R- What, my father?
Yes, but how did you know that your dad was doing that?
R- 'Cause I'd heard him talking to me mother. We were never told but it were discussed in the house.
Aye, like your mother ud tell him somebody that were a deserving case?
R- Aye or he might have had one of his weavers off work. Yes.
R- You know and in bad circumstances. Or you know, a good hard working person, and come to be off work.
Yes. Would you say that there were many in bad circumstances
R- There were and I think they got helped by either relations or friends. I know wi’ his garden, he'd fill a bucket wi’ potatoes and cabbage and cauliflower and he’d take it to somebody that were in need on it. And happen. you know, a rabbit and then they were reight for a Saturday and Sunday dinner. And when he had his hens he give nearly all his cracked eggs away. But I do know this, he used to give a lot of eggs away to folk what he didn't just know and they wore flogging ‘em. [selling them] I got to know that later on.
(200)
R- Aye and then I mean you could get a bucket full of eggs for ten shilling in them days. You know, when they were laying in spring. They used to come up did folk and it were ten shilling a bucket full. Pick their own out of the nest, aye. And they had ‘em. They didn't want any cockerels running with 'em, they wanted 'em for pickling. And they said they didn't pickle right if they had cocks running wi’ ‘em.
Aye. Did he belong to a trade union your dad?
R- Yes aye, overlookers.
Yes. When did that start Fred, you know?
R- I’ve no idea, although I've seen books many a time with it in. But it's a thing I never bother about.
[The Combination Act of 1799 banned trade unions but was partially repealed in 1825. The General Union of Loom Overlookers was founded in 1885.]
see.
Did he go to the union meetings?
R- Very seldom I think.
Where were the union meetings held in Earby?
R- Well, when first I used to go to they were in the Ambulance Hall down in Earby.
The Ambulance Hall, where is it?
R - Next to the Band Club.
That's it aye, on New Road.
R- New Road.
Yes.
R- Then it got to be they started having 'em in the Band Club and I think when they went to the Ambulance Hall they might have given about five shilling of a donation to the ambulance, you know. And then they started having ‘em in the Band Club and I think it were a bit of a racket. Instead of giving a donation to the ambulance, well it ud only be about sixpence a pint. They'd give them what went a check for a pint of beer or sommat like that. And I think that's why a lot on 'em approved of ‘em going to the Band Club 'cause they got a pint for nowt.
Aye.
(15 mins)
R- There's allus that bit of greed isn't there, whatever it is.
Aye, there is, there is. It's human nature I suppose Fred. Did he hold any office in the union?
R- No.
Would you say that he was a strong union man?
R- Well I wouldn't say he were out and out, you know, acting daft. He paid his subs and he kept up to the rules and regulations I should think.
R- I don’t think they were ever as strict in Earby as what they were in places like Colne. Earby came under Colne you know and there were none of that, as soon as the engine stopped they just finished work. If you were finishing a warp off, you’d finish it off and that sort of thing. But in Colne I believe they used to, as soon as the engine finished they finished.
Yes, I've heard.
R- And they didn't go in while it set on.
(250)
Yes I’ve heard this before Fred and it intrigues me a bit because I think it was very similar in Barnoldswick as well. [Like Earby] What do you think was the reason for that? You know for 'em not being as strict as they were say in like Colne, Nelson you know, these bigger towns.
R- I wouldn't like to say Stanley. I think they were the same in Barnoldswick and Earby, there were a lot of family firms weren’t there. They'd [the workers] put money in and these tacklers and weavers they were working for part of the family. I think that ud be one reason, same in Earby.
Yes.
R - And one weaver ud do it and another weaver ud do it and they'd do the same.
In the old days, when I say the old days I'm going back to about 1900 now, it was a fairly common thing for somebody that had some money laid by ‘em to lend it to either one of shed companies or one of manufacturers at so much interest a year and very often the firm they were working for, weren’t it.
R- That's it yes.
That were fairly common.
R- Yes it were.
Would you say that that was still going on, you know in say the 1920s up to 1930.
R - Oh yes there were firms in Earby what were like that. Them what were running the firm they were workers there and you know they'd pool their money.
Yes now what we’re talking about is something just a little bit different now isn't it. We’re talking about self help now aren’t we?
R – No.
Oh. Go on then.
R- A fella might have hundred pound, another fella ud have hundred pound and another a couple of hundred or sommat like that. They say let's start up.. And one ud happen be a taper, one ud happen be clever enough to go to Manchester, another might be the office bookkeeper. And then they'd have their wives working there weaving but they'd happen have about four hundred loom.
Aye.
R- There were one in Earby. It allus got called Pickles's. I don't know what it’s reight name were but it allus got Pickles's because Pickles were the main shareholders probably.
Which, would that be Stephen Pickles, Barlick.
R - No. No it were Earby Pickles.
Aye.
R- Somewhere and it were even that Johnny Pickles. They were up at Sough. Johnny Pickles were up at Sough weren’t he.
Yes. Now I've heard Jim say that Sough got to be a self help shop.
R- Aye.
Now explain to me what a self help shop is.
(300)
R- Well, that were after this Nutters at Grove shut up. [1932] They had Grove Mill, they had a third of Albion and they had half of Sough. They had all them looms in Earby had Nutters.
Yes.
R- And when they shut up there were a lot on them they put off, were it £2 a loom or sommat like that, they had six loom. Paid about twelve pound to get some looms but everybody what worked there paid money in to buy the looms. It weren’t just run wi’ four or five. And everybody had to have money in it, that were self help. And that were the beginning of Johnsons in Earby. Johnson & Johnson’s. They bought ‘em out.
What, bought the self help out? When was that Fred?
R- Just before war, happen about 1938 or sommat like that,
And was Sough a self help then?
R- Yes they had some there and then they had the Ballroom at Earby. You know, what we called the ballroom, middle floor in the mill. Aye they had some there. And that Percy Low, he were the market man. Well actually he’d trained at Nutter's at Grove Mill. He’d had a real good grounding had Percy and he knew the cotton job from A to Z. Well he were the main man at self help and then when Johnson's bought 'em out Percy were still the main man in Earby. Well they expanded then and got a lot more looms did Johnson's. And there’d happen be three or four tacklers at self help and they all came to Johnson’s as well. They all got paid out wi’ Johnsons, whether they made any profit I don’t know.
(20 mins)
How do you think, course it's all conjecture isn’t it. What I was going to say was, how do you think they'd have gone on if there wasn't such a thing as self help. When did self help start, you know when did it start happening?
R - Happen about 1929 or 30 happen. [1932 actually]
Yes. So in effect it ud start with the bad times. It would be one way of counteracting the bad times.
(350)
R- That’s it. As I say this Percy Low had had a good grounding and probably he'd have a lot of contacts what Grove used to bother wi’ you know, Nutters. He’d know all their ex buyers and that. And there were another fella, Harold Wilkinson they called him, he were very, very clever, a market man. Well he went flop an all when Nutters finished. He were, I should think he were the main man at Nutters were this Wilkinson but they get men in mills now, they've never been grounded like this Percy Low were.
Yes. When you say that he'd been really well grounded with Nutters, just explain to me what you'd call a good grounding in the cotton trade.
R- Well he’d probably start there when he left school. Then he’d be called up in the forces. Then he’d come back after he’d finished his time in the forces and he’d be out looking for office work. You know, booking cards and that sort or thing and then working his way until he were working in the office and then probably going to Manchester with this Harold Wilkinson, ‘cause they used to work to fractions of a penny and that didn't they. And he weren’t learning wi a dud or owt of that, if I were one of them, if I'd have been in same position, I should have thought I were learning the job wi’ a good man. And I should have been proud to work with him.
Would you say that that was a fairly general way of somebody getting into management in cotton in those days?
R- No, I think you know, the father belonged the mill, so the lad got to come into the office and that sort of thing.
Yes.
R- And these others what had, you know four or five on 'em had started a mill up, well their lads would have to, if they came into the mill, they'd have to have a reasonably good job. 'Cause after all, like at this AJ Birley's me uncle Willy, he were market man for AJ. I don't think AJ did much. Well he’d two lads what were in, one got to be in the office and started going to Manchester wi’ his dad and t’other were manager.
(400)
What, your Uncle Willy’s lads.
Aye.
R- So that's how it were. I mean wheels within wheels it were.
Would you say that was a good thing or a bad thing.
R- Well I don't think it were a good thing.
Aye. You know the old saying. Clogs to clogs in three generations. It very often seems to have been proved to be true. Would you think that that was anything to do with that.
R- I dare say it were.
I mean taken on the whole, I mean don’t just take it just because I say it, but I mean you know the saying as well as I do. Would you think that there was any truth in that saying.
R- Aye I should think there were a lot of truth in it.
Yes. Can you think of any examples in Earby.
R- Well not just straight out.
I know I'm pushing you a bit, I'll tell you who came to mind. Nutters at Bancroft. Because I mean that were Wilfred’s trouble weren’t it, that he had nobody to follow him that was really interested.
(25 mins)
That ud get stuck in. I mean Wilfred ud be one of the old school wouldn't he.
R- That's it yes, like it were his money an all weren’t it.
Yes.
R- Aye.
I often think you know that Jim slipped up badly there. And I mean obviously I've interviewed Jim and I get the idea that Jim was very slow or else he, you know, I can’t see him muckying his slate Jim, he’s to good a bosses man, I think he must have been very slow somewhere there because you know Wilfred used to take him all over the place.
R - He were a favourite with Wilfred weren’t he?
Yes, aye. And it make you wonder whether Wilfred, you know would have treated him like a son.
R- Well he would have been better than a son probably.
Yes.
R- 'Cause, you know, some of these son's they grew up didn’t they and the nest had been feathered all the time hadn't it. No trouble and me father has a good job and he's found me a good job. I don't care whether I work or I don't.
Yes well, there were one, aye.
R- But I dare say you got same as that cousin of mine what were in the office, he were no duck egg, he were very clever and a smart fella. But you got others what weren’t.
(450)
Mm. Taken on the whole would you say that as regards actual knowledge of the trade and knowledge of weaving and you know knowledge of the processes, if you were to compare say the old time management. Well, if you were to compare say the management of Birley's, AJ's as it were when your dad was working for them and just for arguments sake, Johnson's nowadays, who would you say was the best management? You know, best weaving management?
R- Well as regards management I should say Birley's ‘cause they were fetched up with the job, they knew the trade.
Yes.
R- These days, you get these modern does now like, they are just educated aren’t they.
Well I think you've just about hit the nail on the head there. I get the impression now a days that in a modern weaving set up, admittedly there aren’t so many about, but I think of Johnsons in particular. A really complete knowledge of the process of weaving doesn’t seem to be one of the requirements of a weaving manager now.
R- No. I've seen all that difference in Johnsons. I worked there twenty one year and I worked several years under this Percy Lowe and he knew everybody in the mill and when he walked round, and he used to walk round, you know his eyes and his hand were watching everything, he knew everything what there were. And he’d say to the manager so and so wants doing, get all the tacklers in at Saturday morning and get it done. And another time they were going to make some Lenos. Get to know how to do them, get tacklers in at Saturday morning and it were one of these places, you never said how much will we get, what are we getting. You said nothing but your money were allus there. You allus left it to Mr Lowe. Whatever he asked you to do, whatever you did, there were no quibble about paying for it. But I suppose if you’d have gone to him and said how much are you going to give us for the job he’d have said, if you don't want the job, get out. Just like that. Happen used a bit stronger language an all.
Aye. which of course was possible in them days.
R- Yes. I know we did a lot of Saturday morning work then. There were allus sommat. He’d allus walk round and he’d see sommat you know. Same as you used to lap sand rollers wi’ gauze so as they didn’t pluck. One time he said it looks like a Booming rag shop, we'll have ‘em all painted. Tell all the sweepers to come in Saturday morning and lift rollers up and tacklers can paint ‘em, we'll have it looking tidy. That were what he used to say. It were what you call good house-keeping, he were allus on about good house-keeping. Every day there were a fella there and he used to go round all the mill picking all the wrappers up, you know what, them spare ends what were running round. The weavers used to cut ‘em off and they used to put ‘em on the floor and he used to go round and all the lap ends off the warps were all on his arm. None had to be laid about on the floor and none had to go into the sweepings. They were picked up and put in a bag all tidy. And twice a week he had to go down the main shafting and sweep the dust off the main shafting. He’d keep things as tidy and as clean as he could. He were interested in the job, he knew what he were doing. But there's some of these others, they wouldn't know one thing from t’other.
(550) (30 mins)
When did you actually, I know we're getting in front of us selves a little bit here, but still, when did you work for Johnsons, what years Fred?
R- 1952. I worked for ‘em twenty one years.
1952 to 1973, aye. So Percy would be there then of course.
R- He were there when I went at the beginning yes.
Aye. I’ve bear Newton talk about one mill, I can’t just remember where it is, where they used to polish the shafting.
R- Yes.
They used to have a shaft man going round all day with a stick with a hoop on the end of it lined with emery.
R- Aye, they had one at Johnson’s.
Is that right?
R- Aye.
Cleaning the shafting.
R- But I mean they didn't go round regular but they had one.
Yes.
R- And occasionally they'd do this here, you know part of the line shaft, it might have been raining in or sommat you know and a bit of rust on it. Well they put this here on. It was an iron bar.
That's it aye. I know Newton said they'd polished the shafts that much in this shop, they had an old fella going round all day doing nothing but. He said it were a beggar when you come to move pulleys. He said you had to alter all the sizes of the bushes.
R- Aye.
Because where the pulley's were they hadn't polished the shaft and of course where they'd polished the shaft it were thinner.
R- Thinner aye.
So they couldn't use the same bushes they had to use over-size bushes. He said it were a pain in neck actually.
R- Yes.
But it looked lovely. He said all the shaft were like chrome plate.
R- Course they'd never think of moving drums in the days when they were doing that, would they.
No.
R- They wouldn’t.
Because I mean, things were set for ever weren’t they.
R- Aye, they just had thirty eight inch looms or thirty six and forty’s, forty two's hadn’t they and that were it. They were set there and never thought of altering the width or anything.
Aye. Round about 1930, this is a thing that I’ve come across in Barlick. Now there was a shed company in Earby wasn't there, The Earby Shed Company.
R- Yes.
(600)
When did they start, have you any idea?
R- You mean where the shed company owned the building?
Yes. Room and Power.
R- That would be New Road what ud be the last to be put up. [Brook Shed]
Which sheds in Earby were room and power and which were privately owned?
R- Well, Spring Mill, I think that would be more or less privately owned. Like Watson Bailey and Charles Watson, they’d all be shareholders but they didn’t work in the mill. Then there were the Earby Shed Company on New Road.
That's Brook Shed.
R- There were Big Mill and all. I don’t know who that belonged to.
Big Mill. Is that, that's not Victoria?
R- Well Victoria's attached to it isn’t it, well it were.
Yes, but at one time they were separate, well they still are separate aren’t they, Vokes is in Victoria Mill now isn't it.
R- Vokes aye, but same as Johnson’s. It were Birley's at one time, the shafting went across the beck to drive that. Actually it were joined up with shafting.
That big beam engine that was in at Big Mill, did that drive all that?
R- All of it, yes. Johnsons an all.
So it drove Johnson's, it drove Big Mill and it drove Victoria an all like.
R- Aye it drove all them*
Yes.
R- There were what they called the Earby Manufacturing Company [684 looms in 1912/1938] And there were Jackson & Thornton or Thornton & Jackson, then there were Shuttleworth’s. Then there were the Ballroom up at the top, then there were all Victoria where Johnson's is. I did reckon it up one time how many looms and I've forgotten now.
(655) (35 mins)
R- A fair lot. They allus used to say it drove the shafting from Empire cinema to New Road, you know.
Yes it did didn't it.
R - Aye.
I think I’ve heard Newton say that at one time there were about two thousand eight hundred looms on that engine.
R- There would be.
And then all the tapes an all. I've forgotten how many tapes he said there were. [Seven according to Horace Thornton] It were a marvellous old engine were that, you know and it used to drive the lot off forty ton a week. Aye. I've heard Newton say I think it were forty two ton a week it would drive it off. But I've heard him say that you had to have at least two of the boilers blowing off to start it. [Horace Thornton told me later that it had to barred round for half an hour before it would start in winter]
R - Aye.
It took that much starting. Marvellous engine, I’ll have to get Newton to talk a lot about that engine because it was a wonderful engine, it was that, really. I think it was an old Yates and it had been modified. I think everybody in Lancashire had had a do at it. It had been McNaughted and god know what. It was a tremendous engine.
R- Aye. I had a friend in Keighley and he came over one time and Tommy Almond were running it and 1 said would it be all right if he had a look up. He said “Aye.” And Tommy just explained a few things to him and let him look all round . He were really amazed with it were this here fella from Keighley. ‘Cause you know when Birley's moved from Victoria across to the Albion it were stopped then, and they said oh well it It’ll not be able to run won't the engine. It won't have enough weight on. And then another time all the mills stopped, when Johnson's starts up, there's only
(700)
Johnson's running, it's just running that half. All the other mills were stopped. It did it worked didn't it. As I say like, it were central were that engine weren’t it and it had to work at each side.
That's it aye, aye.
R- It didn't matter it run 'em.
Aye. Oh I know Newton thought the world of that engine, he did. Anyway, what we'll do we'll go back to when you first started work.. Now when did you first start work?
R- When I were twelve, half time.
Mm.. What year were that, that ud be 1916 you were born weren’t you?
R- No, 1908.
1908 well that's 1920.
R- Aye.
So you started half time. Did you have any jobs before you started half timing?
R- No, not in particular.
Did you go to learn to weave with anybody before you started half timing?
R- I used to go in when school loosed. I knew how to set looms on and stop 'em and put cops on before I went in.
Yes who did you go in to?
R- Well I weren’t particular who I went in to. Anybody.
Which mill?
R- That were up at New Road. They called 'em Bracewell Hartley’s, well me father were working there at time. Then when I were thirteen I left school and got two looms when I were thirteen.
Yes. Would you say that was fairly general then Fred? You know to like go into the mill either Saturday morning or after school and do a bit?
R- Oh yes. Aye there were a lot on 'em they could weave before they left school.
(750)
R- They used to come into their mothers and their fathers.
When you were half timing who paid you?
R- Oh him what you were learning with. Held give you tuppence.
Aye.
R- A three-penny bit. That were for sweeping. You didn't get any money, no. [wages]
That's it.
R- Aye a three-penny bit. [Fred laughs]
And that were what you started work for.
R- Aye.
And when you went to go half time, did you have to have a medical examination?
R- Aye he just come down did the doctor and had a look at you. It were sommat and nowt.
Aye. I've asked you about this before haven’t I. What was his name? That doctor’s name, was it Aldersley?
R- Alderson were it?
(40 mins)
Alderson that's it. Alderson.
R – Alderson, aye, that were it.
That fella must have had a lucrative job going because he used to get half-a-crown a time I think.[He was MOH to the BUDC]
R- Aye.
Aye, and he seemed to do 'em all in Barlick you know.
R- Aye. I think he did ‘em all in Earby.
Aye.
R- You know you had a funny feeling you know, you felt good and all that. Warehouse lad comes, he says “Doctors come, you've to go in the office.” I thought eh heck, you know. if he doesn’t pass you, what will you do 'cause there were no other work. A reight funny feeling come ower me but I think he just looked at me eyes and looked in me ears and me mouth and happen just sounded me chest and off back in to the shed.
Did you ever know anybody get rejected?
R- No, no. I dare say if anybody were too bad they'd never think of going in the mill.
Aye.
R- 'Cause I mean there were young lasses and that, they never went to work, they were never strong enough to go in the mill. They stopped at home, their mother ud happen be working and they would stop at home.
(800)
Aye. Did you ever know anybody that went weaving half time that you thought perhaps shouldn't really be weaving? You know, that you thought perhaps weren’t strong enough.
R- No, no I don’t think so. No I didn't know of anybody that died of owt, you know, with going into the mill.
That's it. Thirteen year old then you started full time and were you put on two looms straight away.
R- Well if you were lucky. Just as it happened, there were two of us. A weaver give over, well in them days the tacklers set their own weavers on. Well wi’ me father being a tackler he set his own lad on and this other lass that had learnt to weave at the same time, we got to join at these looms. But many a time you could be nearly twelve month before you got any work. Some places they had six loom weavers and then they had what you call tenters. You know when they'd learnt they happen got paid off one loom.
Even in those days they had six loom weavers?
R - Just a few. And they were supposed to learn other weavers what came in.
(850)
Yes. So like if you had five looms you'd be a top class weaver?
R- Yes. Well they’d have five loom, they'd draw their wage off five loom.
That's what 1 mean.
R- Aye and a tenter who’d get a wage off one, about twelve shilling a week.
Aye. So in about 1921 then, a really good weaver on good sorts could be on three quid a week. On five looms.
R- Oh if you were on five aye, but as I say there were only one or two in a mill. They made about twelve shilling where I worked. Twelve shilling a loom.
What were that, two pieces?
R- Well it varied. Some on ‘em were two marks and some three marks and you had to try and balance ‘em up 'cause you weren’t paid on picks.
Now that's an interesting thing. Now in Barlick I think they were just about all the same length, two marks, 100 yard pieces. Were they different lengths in Earby?
R- Well they’re two marks for 100 yard and three marks 150.
Aye.
R- They were all fifty yard to a mark. But, you know, you might have a three marker in and a two marker and it could be a bit awkward then if you hadn't a piece off your three marker you'd only twelve shilling off t’other.
Yes, that's it. Aye.
R- And I mean it appertained to people what had a home to follow as well. They could have nowt to draw off one loom. The following week like they'd have a good do.
(900)
How did it strike you when you went first time to the mill? When I say when you went first time to the mill. Well let me ask you when you first went half time to the mill. What was your attitude to going half time?
R- Oh I looked forward to it. Aye. I were really looking forward to learning to weave and then following in me father’s footsteps tackling.
Aye. And would you say that was fairly general.
R- No. 'Cause some of these other lads and lasses what went, their parents were only weavers, well they had no chance of getting anywhere only weaving all the time.
(45 mins)
R- It were one of them does, same as I were saying about manufacturers, they fetched their sons in. Well they allus said you had to be related to a tackler to get to be one.
I've heard Ernie say that. That you either had to know somebody on the committee or else be related to a tackler.
R- That’s it aye, it weren’t right easy to get in. Aye.
(935)
SCG/17 April 2003
6,852 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/10
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 16TH OF NOVEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Tape 71/AH/10.
This tape follows straight on from 78/AH/09. When you left school had you any other idea in your head of doing anything else other than weaving and following your dad tackling.
R- No.
Nothing at all.
R- No.
If you had wanted to do something else, was there anything else in Earby that you could have done?
R- Well there were just one thing. I went to woodwork at school and that woodwork teacher said if I stuck to woodwork he’d find me an apprentice's job in woodworking. Well, I had no interest in it at all, although I say it meself, I were fairly good at the job then and he must have seen sommat good in me when he offered that but me father allus said both me and me brother, we’d to learn to weave whether we wanted or not and then it were allus there were weaving. If there were owt else came on, well go to it. Well he never really did like weaving but there were never really owt else cropped up.
You say your dad didn't really like weaving?
R- No, me brother.
Oh your brother, yes, sorry.
R- Like I did. I liked it all through but he didn't. Although he were a good weaver and a good worker. And then after the strike in thirty two he didn't get back weaving he went back sweeping and he were sweeping when he got called up into the army. When he came back out of army he swept for a bit and then he got a job what he liked. He got it given at less wage than what he were earning. But he got what he wanted then.
When you say he never got back weaving, he went back sweeping, was that because he’d been involved with union activities or something like that?
R- Well they were all on four loom and then the strike came and they all went on six loom. Well so many had to finish.
Ah. So when we’re talking about the 1932 strike, what we're talking about is the start of the more looms system.
R- Well there were so many weavers had to finish in a mill. And he were one of ‘em.
Aye well we'll get on to… Well, I don't know, this is as good a time as any. This is as good a time as any Fred. You tell me in your own words, first of all, tell me what the more looms system was.
R- Well in one way it were supposed to cheapen production. And they had a stamp to pay had the employer [insurance stamp for each weaver] Well if they'd twelve loom
(50)
they'd three weavers on and they'd three stamps. Well if you went on more looms, if they'd twelve loom they'd only two weavers on. That meant that they were saving a stamp there and I suppose all them little bits counted.
So in other words it was the employers that wanted to put weavers on to more looms than they had been on before so that they had less expenses. Now in point of fact would that have raised the weavers wages?
R- Slightly, but the wage list were altered and it didn't really make above a shilling or two, happen a couple of shillings a week more. But they hadn't to sweep, they got a sweeper on and in the wage structure they'd, well half a crown a week knocked out of their wages to pay the sweeper. But wi’ not having to sweep themselves they could keep the six loom running better and probably that made ‘em more wage.
So in theory they could make that half crown.
R- They could make that half crown.
Did they do anything else to improve the weaver’s conditions besides that?
R- They slowed the looms down a little bit.
From what to what?
R- I wouldn't like to say figures 'cause they varied at different mills. I wouldn't like to say what they were. But they were supposed to slow 'em down and then they gave ‘em a little bit longer package of weft and it were supposed to make it equal to when they had four looms.
(5 mins)
R- They'd no more work than what they had.
Now when they give ‘em that longer weft package that ud mean altering the shuttle's wouldn't it?
R- Yes.
Now I'm going to lead you on a bit here because it's something I've already done a lot about with Ernie. A longer shuttle means that unless the box is altered it makes it more difficult to time a loom doesn’t it, because obviously your shuttle’s longer. Did anybody in Earby put extensions on their boxes, or did they get away without?
R- Well, in this instance they only put half an inch on. It were half an inch longer were the cop than what it were before.
Which instance is this Fred, when you say this instance.
R- When they went from four loom to six loom.
Yes.
R- And then later on, as we say, these theory men came in and if you get a longer package they'll still have less work. And when I worked at what they call the silk place, they had some extended box ends on there.
(100)
Aye, which were the silk place?
R- It were in a mill, another mill what used to be what they called the Seal Manufacturing Company at one time. It were just a little place, two hundred loom or sommat like that.
Did they once weave at Coates at Barlick?
R- No.
When they started up, when Seal Manufacturing started up have you any idea who started it?
R- A bit, what they called Jackson and Thornton.
I have an idea Fred that they used to be up at Coates, whether they were manufacturing there or whether they were working there I'm not sure, but I have an idea that they used to be up at Coates Mill. It's a bit of a mystery is this Seal Manufacturing Company. There's a lot of people don't know anything about it. Course if it was only a small unit. How long did they last Fred? [Much later I found that the name derived from Seal Croft, a small field in Earby.]
R - Oh they'd be one of first to go out when slump came.
Yes. Anyway to get back to more looms. So what they did, they put sweepers on for 'em, they lengthened the yarn package a bit which would lessen the shuttling on that loom wouldn't it.
R- Yes.
The shuttle ud last longer. They slowed the looms down. Now when they'd done all this… Oh those ud still be kissing shuttles?
R- Yes, aye they were still kissers.
Yes. How about carrying cloth?
R- Oh they had to do that there selves. They’d to pull their own pieces off and carry 'em in warehouse.
When they went on to six loom were they still plaiting cloth on the loom or were they taking it off on rollers.
R- Oh no, on the loom.
Yes. When was the first time you ever saw cloth taken off the loom on the roller, can you remember?
R- Wel1 I knew they did it at Johnsons but I'd never woven there. But when I went to this silk place they took 'em off on rollers. But where I'd worked at up to then like, it were all to pull 'em off had weavers.
Yes, Is there any advantage in taking it off on the roller?
R- Well it’s a lot quicker isn’t it.
Yes, well I can’t understand really why they didn't do that all the time you know, it seems to me that, I mean it was the old manufacturers idea, to keep the looms running and surely it would have paid them to invest in the rollers.
R- Spare rollers.
So that they could have got the advantage. It's always puzzled me a little bit that Fred really.
R- Aye they could have done, couldn't they.
Aye. But you know, knowing these old manufacturers you know, they’d have a reason for it, they weren’t daft.
R- Aye they would wouldn't they.
(150) (10 Mins)
I don't really know what the reason was, I can’t think what the reason was. Anyway, so when was that, the Seal Manufacturing Company, when were you working for them?
R- Well, I worked for a firm what went into the mill where they worked. I didn't work for them. No, because they went out in about 1927 or 28..
Oh, so you saw cloth being taken off the loom on rollers say about 1925.
R- No, I went to work in that mill and then another firm took it on. And it were this other firm then what took it out on rollers. I didn’t go into this silk firm until, well, 1948. It were 1948 when I saw it first. Although I know they were doing it at Johnsons 'cause that big gauze stuff, they couldn’t pull it off on the looms.
Aye that's it, with it being so thin.
R- It ud have taken 'em half an hour to pull a thousand yards off, they couldn't do it.
Aye, that's it. And did they do anything else for the weavers? How about things like weft carriers and trap hands and spare weavers, you know owt like that.
R- Not when they were on six looms. But when they started giving 'em more looms then they started with extra help.
Yes, so then they were carrying their own weft.
R- Yes.
Let’s talk now about when you first went to work and you were working up at Albion Mill, not Albion.
R - New Road, at Bracewell Hartley’s.
New Road, Brook Shed aye. You'd be carrying your own weft there when you were on two looms?
R - Yes.
Where did you have to bring it from?
R- Out of the warehouse. They were all in skips and boxes. They were all paste bottom cops, there were no tubes or anything like that, reight old time.
How did you go on wi’ broaching cops, were you all right?
R - Yes, 'cause this fella what taught me, he taught you that that were one of first things to do, put a cop on properly. And you could put it on and you just pulled a tail off at the top, one tail. And some on them you know, they used to, they couldn't do it and they used to pull lumps off the top. Where they'd have their waste tins fat, pushed down, this fella I learnt wi’, you could have got it in your hand nearly and he didn't throw any away. It were all genuine were his.
(200)
Tell me what you used to have to do with your waste.
R- Oh you'd to take it into the warehouse and put it on a table and there were a fella there looking in it to see if there were any big cop bottoms or any waste what there shouldn't be. And I mean it were a case, you could get sacked if you were making too much waste. But there were definitely an art in putting a cop on and you used to see some weavers and all their waistcoats down here were all worn away.
Just down the right hand side aye, that's it.
R- Well this fella [that taught me] you had to put 'em up here. You had to have 'em up above your head to put 'em on. And then you couldn't push it down. You skewered up.
Aye. I see what you mean.
R- Do you understand. Aye, well down here you know, they were waggling all ower and they .......
Aye that's it. So the idea was to push the skewer up through the cop and not push the cop down on to the skewer.
R- That's it aye, slowly. You know, you put it up like that and it were correct you could get a nice movement there.
Yes. Let it work it's way up the middle.
R- Well down here, well they kept banging their waistcoats and they were all cut in bits. And it were a habit they couldn’t get out on.
(15 mins)
Aye. And when you first started, we're still talking about when you first went into the mill, that's about 1921. Tell me about tramp weavers, you know and weavers in the warehouse in a morning.
R- Oh there were allus some weavers stood [In the warehouse], and anybody late you know, happen came late a time or two, well they’d put one of these weavers on and when the other weaver came, he [the tackler] just sent him home. And that were it.
Tell me what the actual thing was in a morning. You go in to work in a morning and you'd be stood at your looms when engine started.
R - Yes.
Where would the overlooker be?
R - Well he’d be sat down somewhere and then as soon as the engine started he’d get up and he’d come and walk into mill. He’d have a position where he could look down, he’d know whether all his weavers were there or not. But there were very, very few people late in them days. It were a pity if some on 'em were you know, well they might
(250)
have slept in, been wakened all night wi’ there children and just slept in. But it didn't matter, they'd have a weaver on. Wi’ some of tacklers, they didn't bother, just bang a weaver on and that were it. They'd a fifth of their wage gone there. I don't know, well they'd be going back home and taking their blooming sandwiches back and their tea in the tin. They must have felt soft somehow going back.
Aye. I've seen it happen at Bancroft you know. I remember once seeing a weaver come back, I can’t just remember who it were and what it was, they'd been off sick for a week or two and they came back on the Monday morning, and they never told Jim they were coming back. And I happened to be in the shed that morning and I can’t remember exactly who it were but it were a fairly old weaver you know, it ud be one that could remember the old days. And I saw her face when she walked up the broad alley and saw somebody on her looms, and do you know her face just went white.
R - Aye.
And she turned round and walked out, you know. She went straight up to Jim and of course Jim come down and took this weaver off and put her straight on. But you know it hurt that woman. It really hurt her when she saw somebody on her looms.
R- But there were a little bit of sommat about that, if you'd been off you'd got to tell them that you were coming back. Because there’d been a sick weaver on for happen a fortnight and that sick weaver naturally thought well they've never said owt and they're on them looms again at Monday morning. And then other weaver comes in and it gets to be a bit of an argument sometimes. Well you never said you were coming back. I could have getten on so and so if you'd have telled me. You know. probably there were another weaver going to be off and they might have moved ‘em up.
If somebody was off sick. Say you were weaving, just for argument’s sake you were weaving on four loom and you're poorly. What did you used to do? Did you let 'em know at the mill or did you set a sick weaver on yourself?
R- No. You let 'em know at the mill. And they put on who they thought.
That's it aye. So the sick weaver were actually nothing to do with the person that were off.
R- No.
Not like nowadays. Many a time you talk about a sick weaver and some of 'em, as I understand it, some of ‘em they pay the weaver themselves don’t they.
R - Yes. Well you used to have to do in them days if you were off for two days. That sick weaver what came on, they'd reckon up when the mark came up, how many hours they'd woven before the mark came up. It were a complicated do.
(300)
And you'd draw your wage ‘cause you'd worked more days in the week than them and then they'd say well I want so many hours for this and so many hours for that and it weren’t just a case of a shilling an hour you know. That might, the other piece might be a bit more money than that. Well they wanted more for that and that sort of thing. It were complicated and they had to fight it out between themselves had the weavers. They never did owt in the warehouse about it.
Aye that's it, unless you were off for over a week.
R- That’s it . Then you'd to, well this sick weaver ud say well that mark came up so and so and...
Aye, that's it, because they were paid on marks weren’t they.
R- Aye, it were all, they were paid on marks aye, it were all to reckon up. And as I say they didn't do owt in the warehouse, it were between the weavers every time.
Aye. Narthen sick weavers, we're on about sick weaving. Tramp weaving. Who were the tramp weavers?
R- Well they were more or less them what lived in models and travelled about. They were never happy with stopping in one place so long. I never saw so many but I’ve heard 'em say nearly all these tramp weavers were good weavers.
(20 mins)
But they never really wanted regular work. If they could get a day or two days they were quite satisfied and if you were, same as we were talking about reckoning marks up and that, well a tramp weaver ud happen work one day and that weaver then would pay him the equivalent to one days pay and they couldn't reckon marks up. These tramp weavers didn't want owt to do with reckoning marks up. They just wanted a day here and a day there. Easy reckoning for them. And they tell me they were all, biggest part were real tip top weavers. They could go into a plain shop, satins, dobbies, any sort of weaving.
Yes, when you come to think about it, that's quite possibly true. Well I say that, I’ve no doubt it is true because you’d have to be a good weaver to be a tramp weaver to make it do wouldn't you.
R- Yes, yes you had to, definitely.
Because you'd be in a different shop on different looms every day.
R- I've heard 'em talking, I think they used to get 'em up at Sough, well a coloured place up there. And they'd come round and they might say eh hell it's getten to the back end of November, so and so will be coming afore long. And it used to take 'em happen six month or twelve month to do their circle of working at different mills. And they really enjoyed it I think, get a days work and go in the model and get another day somewhere else. They were alright for beer and sleep then. And many a time somebody ud give 'em a sad cake, they'd have nowt for their breakfast, somebody ud give 'em a sad cake and let ‘em join wi’ their tea or sommat like that.
How were they regarded tramp weavers, I mean when all's said and done everybody knew if they were late one of these fellas would get on their looms. Did that lead to any ill feeling between the regular weavers and the tramp weavers?
R- No I don't think so.
No. If there was a queue in the warehouse, say there were seven weavers stood and there were three sets of looms. Did the first three weavers in the queue necessarily get those looms?
R - No. It depended on the tackler. He’d have an idea which were the best weavers. Then that’s a thing you’ve just brought up, there's seven weavers and there's three tacklers at this firm, and this weaver’s a really good weaver, he might not be first, he might be third. Well these tacklers used to go round and it were who could get out to warehouse first to get hold of the good weaver. And you know, they were allus cutting one another’s throats. [The tacklers]
Because a good weaver meant more wage for the tackler.
R- More wage for the tackler, that's it aye. And there’d be weavers going and standing every day and they hadn't a chance of getting on, not the slightest chance of getting on.
Would the reason for them not getting set on always be the fact that they were bad weavers?
R – Yes, they weren’t good enough. But when they were signing on they'd got to go looking for work and it didn't matter how bad they were you know. They might go to a tackler and say will you sign this card that I've been looking for work and some on 'em didn’t want work.
As long as they had their card signed that they'd been looking for work, so long as they could go back to the dole office and say that they'd been standing that morning.
R- That's it aye and they could get their dole then.
Yes. How did they draw their dole, did they draw it each day?
R- Once a week.
Aye.
Queue up for it.
Did you ever draw the dole?
R- Aye when I were played off, you know, for a week or half week, or sommat like that.
(25 mins)
What were it like drawing the dole?
R- Well they'd put a notice up in this mill, we'll be closed next week owing to trade. Well you'd to go and sign on then at Barlick at Monday, we’d to go to Barlick from Earby and then at Wednesday I think it were, you’d to go to a place at Earby, the Weavers Institute. They had a top room up there. You’d sign on again and then I think you went at Friday but you'd only draw three days dole. You'd three waiting days to put in. You’d sign on three times and you'd only get three days dole. But if the mill closed, you know, shut for a week within the space of about six weeks, well you had your waiting days in then. You'd draw for a week then. Well sometimes when trade were bad they worked it that way did some of the good bosses so you were in benefit, instead of letting it run over you know.
That's it yes.
R- And then you were in benefit.
Yes, but you had to sign on each day.
R- No, about three times a week.
Three times a week aye.
R- First time when you signed on you'd to go to Barlick. And sometimes you'd to go to Barlick again to draw your dole. They didn't allus pay you at Earby.
What was the attitude in the dole, you know.
R- Oh, just as though they were giving you their money, it were a rough do.
Yes. I've asked you that, now I don't think for one minute you would be biased but it’s a very touchy subject with a lot of people and I've do doubt that some people will play hell with the people at the dole when actually there was very little to play hell about. Honestly speaking Fred, would you say that there was that attitude in the dole, you know, that they were superior?
(450)
R- Yes 'cause you knew one or two on ‘em what were working in the dole office and you knew what sort of people they were. Just give 'em that bit of authority and that were it. There were one fella in particular he knew all the Earbyers and he were as good as gold, you know. No ifs and buts. He’d talk nicely and say sign here Fred and sign there Fred you know, like that. Or sign here Stanley, sign there Stanley. And he got pulled up, he were too good to the clients what were coming.
Who pulled him up?
R- The manager at the labour exchange. It weren’t his job, he’d to just throw this paper down and they'd to fill it up and if they didn’t fill it up right there were no money for ‘em when it went in. That were the attitude of some of them managers And these clerks, well some on ‘em you know, they were all in wi’ the manager and they just used to throw it down. 'Cause I had an instance of that. I'd gone and he said “Put your name there.” did one on 'em. So I put Fred Inman and it must have been two year after, I signed on again and I got this paper and filled it in and I put, signature F. Inman. And when I went to draw me dole he says “What’s this?” He says Fred Inman there, F. Inman here, “Are they two different fellas?” I said no, only I were told to put me name there, and now I saw signature, so I put me signature. He says “Well you'll have to wait.” So I waits while they all get the money what were there. Then he says “You'll have to come to Barlick.” I says “When?” He says “Friday.” They were out at Thursday. I'd to go to Barlick, at Friday night, five o'clock at Barlick, just for that simple thing like that. And he knew damn well that there were nowt wrong about it.
(500)
Aye.
R- The mill didn't close while half past five and I'd to be at Barlick at five o'clock. Luckily like, me mate says I’ll look on for you but I'd to go on the train, it cost me 4d. return to go on the train. And I’d only draw about 12 bob when I'd getten paid.
Aye. It ud come hard that Fred.
R- Yes, I didn't like it.
(30 mins)
No. I think, I’m not digging for things like that but you know, if they’re there I want to know and things like that you know, they'd really upset me.
R- And I weren’t the only one you know. You’d get up to them counter thinking of getting paid and “Oh nothing for you now, stand at back.” And them dole queue's in them days you know, you were stood at back for an hour. And you all went in order, alphabetical order and it were no use if you were a ‘W’ going wi’ ‘A’ or owt of that. Or it were no use you being ‘W’ and not being there and then getting mixed up further on. If you were ‘A’ and you went into ‘I’ you were late and you went to the back of the queue. I’m not saying owt wrong about that 'cause they had all the books there but there were no give and take at all, just “back of queue!” like that, you know.
Aye.
R- Good old days. But luckily like I didn’t sign on that much.
It makes you wonder where that attitude stemmed from. Whether it stemmed from the men from behind the counter or from higher up you know, whether that was the intention, to…
R - I think it were to put the wind up everybody.
Well to make them like inhospitable places, you know.
R- 'Cause I mean, nobody wants, well I’m saying nobody, there’d be very few wanted to sign on would there if they could work in them days.
Yes.
R- 'Cause after all, what were seventeen shilling.
It weren’t enough to live on Fred, that's sure and certain.
(550)
Well I don’t know, we’d got on to more looms hadn’t we. We'll leave the rest of the more looms job because obviously more looms set on, oh no, wait a minute, 1932 strike, more looms strike. Now then how frequent were strikes in Barlick and in Earby.
R- Oh that were, I think that were only about second strike in my time. I couldn't remember the first, that were only the second strike as I know about.
Yes and who was out in 1932. Who was out?
R- Well, eventually all the mills were out. [ Not strictly true. Sough Bridge and Dotcliffe were not in the Manufacturer’s Association and kept working with non-union labour.]
Aye.
R- They all stopped but I think that Shuttleworth’s lot run as long as anybody. But like a funny thing were that weren’t it. You went out on strike, you didn't know who were going to finish. You knew so many were going to have to finish, they didn't know who, and probably some of them what come out on strike and happen stood about a bit picketing, well them were marked, they didn't get back at all.
That's it. Would you say there was a fair bit of victimisation in that way?
R- Oh yes.
Black listing 'em.
R- Aye.
Now that brings up one little thing. I know under the old system of paying wages, it was fairly obvious to a tackler when he took wages in who got the leanest wage, this that and the other. Tell me if I'm wrong or not, it was fairly common at one time for tacklers to harass the weavers weren’t it if they weren’t performing.
R- Oh yes aye. Aye if they weren’t up to scratch.
(600)
Aye. Can you remember that happening when you were working at the mill. Have you ever seen it happen, you know, a tackler say something to a weaver.
R- Oh yes. I’ve seen tacklers put a warp in and as we say, a two markers, hundred yards, a certain sort. And he's gone round at Saturday morning to see if that piece has been off and if it hasn't been off he's got on to the weaver, “Why weren’t it off. There were enough time to get that off. When I gaited that warp there were so many hours and that piece should have been off.” They had an idea how long it took ‘em to weave pieces did the tacklers.
Did you ever see a board up in the mill with the wages on?
R- No.
Because that happened at one time, didn't it?
R- Yes aye they had a wage board. But I've never known that, but I've heard 'em talk about 'em. Bottom three finished every week or sommat did they say?
(35 mins)
I’ve heard that, I don't know whether that actually ever happened but I know that in the finish the unions got together and stopped it didn’t they. It all came under harassment of weavers and what was the other one an all, not time robbing, oh, starting the engine early and what not. [Time cribbing]
R- That's it aye. Didn't they, hadn't they a minute and a half or sommat to get the engine going at one time.
I couldn't really tell you what the regulations are.
R- I think there were sommat about it, you know. If they were starting at seven o*clock they started at a minute and half to and then the engine were at full speed at seven o'clock, sommat like that.
Yes. That's it aye.
R- Well they'd have it starting you know two minutes and running half a minute ower. 'Cause I mean there’d always be so many weavers there and they'd have looms on as soon as possible and they never stopped their looms while the engine stopped.
Aye.
R - And so they'd gain all them minutes, which add up over a period. I can well remember this. They’d come round would
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the tacklers and they'd say Inspector’s coming round. No young person or woman had to be in that mill, and soon as the engine stopped they'd to get out and they hadn't even to come in until the engine started. And that minute and half while the engine were getting it speed up, they'd to oil their spindles and then they'd to be ready. They hadn't to oil their spindles while the engine were running according to the inspector. Well that inspector had probably been at Colne, they’d ring that through from Colne to Earby or Barnoldswick and they'd have somebody on Earby station. Station master ud probably know this inspector and if he got on the train to Barlick he’d ring 'em up at Barlick and held also ring ‘em up at Earby. “He’s gone to Barlick!” And he hadn't much chance of catching anybody hadn't the inspector 'cause it were all worked out, everybody know before he landed.
Aye, not unless he were on a bike.
R- [Fred laughs] Oh he allus come on the train. No he’d no chance.
And when you started in the mill, let's get back to working in the mill again. When you started in the mill Fred, what were your hours when you started half time?
R- When you started half time you didn't go while 9.00 o'clock. Till half past twelve.
Aye like school time.
R- Yes, school time. But at afternoon you went at half past one while half past five at afternoon. But at morning you didn't go while nine o'clock.
Yes. So when you started full time on your two looms what hours were you working then?
R- Seven o'clock at morning, half an hour for breakfast, an hour for dinner and half past five at night.
(700)
So that's seven till half past five, that's five, ten and half less, that's nine hours in the day.
R- Nine hours a day. Then there were Saturday mornings.
Did you go home for your dinner?
R- Aye.
Aye so it's, five nine's are forty five and what did you work Saturday morning?
R - Seven to eleven I think if I remember reight.
Aye.
R- And then it got altered to, they did away wi’ break at Saturday morning, and then you finished half an hour sooner, half past ten that were it aye.
Aye.
R- And then I think they did sommat else and they finished at a bit shorter hours and then eventually they did away with Saturday morning.
Aye. That ud be a great day wouldn't it.
R- Oh aye, when they did it at first it were marvellous.
Aye.
R- But that Saturday morning, the engine stopped, we'll say at half past ten and you were dashing out, you’d get a black look, you were supposed to stop behind and clean your boxes a bit and titivate things up. And tacklers round here, they'd be same in Barlick. and Earby, they never had to go home while twelve o'clock, unless there were sommat extraordinary. They’d to stop in and go round fastening spindles and putting buffers on. Doing odd jobs, any warps out, gait warps. There were one instance a fella what comes in the White Lion now, he’d be about seventy four, and he told a tale about there were a
(750) (40 mins)
Medal competition one night when football were on and there were three on ‘em. As soon as the engine started slackening they stopped all their looms and run out. When they got to the door there were one of the bosses there. Now lads he says you’re coming out faster than what you go in. He says get back to your looms and come out at the same speed as what you go in. He said we daren’t do anything but walk back in and then walk out quietly. {Fred laughs]
Can you just imagine that nowadays.
R- Eh aye, what would they do now. And then another time he says “I'd been to the toilet and I were just fastening me pants up and he came did this boss. He says “Hasta been smoking?” He says “No, I don’t smoke.” (Sniffing sound) So he says, “It's twist smoke is that, somebody's been smoking twist.” He says “I thought it's a damn good job I hadn't been smoking or he might have sent me home for the day or sommat like that.” He were a comedian were that fella, this boss. This lad’s brother says to him, when you go to work just ask if you can have another two looms. He’d only had two loom for a long while and he were a young fella. He says “Please, me mam wants to know if I can have two loom.” He says “Aye tha can.” Well he says I were all reight he says “ Tek two of your Dan's. He has two too many.” . That were his other brother. [Fred laughs]
(800)
{Stanley laughs] The attitude was completely different wasn't it at work.
R- It were aye.
That’s something that I find intriguing and I can’t really put me finger on it yet. I don't know, I think I should be getting somewhere near it now, but would you say that people were, Ernie reckons that people were brainwashed.
R - I dare say.
Into the fact that they, that at thirteen year old they started work and they worked fifty hours a week and then, you know.. And there were never anything else for ‘em.
R- No. Well I daresay a lot of folk hated going to the mill and they'd no chance of getting any other jobs had they, in little villages and that. There were nowt else for 'em were there.
What was the general atmosphere in, let’s talk about your own experience when you were thirteen year old and you went working at New Road. What were the general atmosphere in the shed. Were it one of gloom and despondency or would you say It were a happy place to work or..
R- They were happy places. I thought so. Aye I really enjoyed it. You'd happen look up and everybody wi’ different actions and that sort of thing. One fella in particular, he used to walk down the alley wi’ his weft tin on his shoulder and he just left (pause) right (pause) left (pause) right (pause); and if you got at back of him wi’ a three marker on
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your shoulder you were just wobbling down by the time you got into the warehouse. And they used to look down the alley did the weavers before they set off, to see whether he were coming out or not. 'Cause he’d go out for his weft and also he had his pieces to take in an all, but he'd be one of them he’d be a good weaver, a reight steady going on.
Never gets flustered.
R- Then there'd be one or two more, they used to nearly run down. Then one time, one fella were going out and he did a bit of a slip and piece catched in a belt and a hundred yards of cloth round the shafting. Couldn't stop it or owt of that, wrapped all round. Well, he must have thought he’d get sacked and I think like you know he’d gone in the warehouse and telled 'em what had happened. Anyway he got away wi’ it, but it could have been a sacking job.
Could have been a bloody disaster an all.
R- Aye.
If the end of the piece had wrapped round his neck. But you said something then that just rang a bell with me. You said that if you got behind that fella you'd had it.
(45 mins)
Aye.
Were the alleys that narrow that you couldn't get past somebody?
R- No you couldn't pass. No. It were just wide enough to walk down. There were two broad alley's, they were just wide enough to walk, you know, straight. You hadn't to waggle or else you'd have been into the box ends.
(900)
Yes.
R- And they'd be two foot six.
And that's what you'd call broad alley?
R- What were the broad alley.
Aye, when did that change Fred. When did they have re-spacing. They had re-spacing at one time, didn't they.
R- When would it be when they started re-spacing? It were just after the war when they started re-spacing,
Aye.
R- Forty seven happen. Forty six, forty seven. Although Johnsons didn't re-space while 1960.
Aye,
That's surprising,
R- Aye, and they all said, you know, they'd be getting summonsed. And when they re-spaced they got paid for looms what they took out if you can remember.
Yes.
R- Well they kept saying Johnsons will be getting summonsed and Johnsons ud do this but Johnsons got paid for looms when they took them out and re-spaced. They knew what they were doing. They had about ten year to do it in or sommat like that.
Aye, that's it. I've heard Ernie say that in old sheds where they were cramming looms in as hard as ever they could, I've heard him talk about looms wearing holes in the wall wi’ the box ends.
R - Yes aye.
Is that reight?
R – Aye. They'd have a bit knocked out. And that were why they had all these spring tops on, so's they could get more looms in. They didn't take as much rooms up as a cross rod didn't a spring top. That’s why they had spring tops, they could get more looms in and still weave their, you know, twills and satins and that.
Yes, still weave up to like a six stave, aye.
R- That were the reason why.
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SCG/17 April 2003
7,078 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/11
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 23RD OF NOVEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Right Fred. We’ll follow straight on from what we did on the last tape. What pay did you get when you started work. Now wait a minute, when you started work part time of course you weren’t getting paid.
R- No.
Butt when you started work full time on two looms, how much could you make?
R- About twenty-eight shilling I think.
You could make so much on two looms could you, then? [1921]
R- But mind you, there was some reductions came after that, wages didn’t go up, they came down.
So that were, now wait a minute, let’s get it straight, what year did you start, was it nineteen twenty one?
R - Twenty one or two.
Twenty two, you'd be on full time wouldn't you, that's it. Thirteen you’d go half time and fourteen full time, that's it. In nineteen twenty two you could get twenty eight shilling off two loom in a week.
R - Two looms.
Now that was if everything went right wasn't it.
R- That’s it yes. No mishaps and good warps and full up all the time which we were then, there were no playing for warps.
And so you'd say that you'd be coming out, you could average somewhere around about what, twenty five bob a week, sommat like that.
(50)
R- Oh yes, it were good money at that place. Hard work but good money. I wouldn't like to say what years they were, but wages kept coming down. They’d come down a time or two when I’d started working.
Aye. Now just to remind us again, what place were you working at then?
R - They called Bracewell Hartley’s.
That’s it, on the New Road, yes.
R- On the New Road.
And what sorts, what were you weaving then Fred?
R- Sateens, five shaft, just ordinary cotton sateens. It were only an ordinary quality, it’d all be for export.
Aye .. no colour in it.
R- No, it were mostly plain. Same back every time you know, thousands and thousands of pieces woven all the same..
How many looms did they have, Bracewell Hartley’s?
R – They’d four hundred and odd.
And how many would they have on them sateens then.
R- They’d all be on them, all on satins.
And would they be all on the same cloth, one sort of cloth?
R- They'd all be the same healds and reeds but just varied a bit in pick. Some’d have just a bit more pick in than others.
Would you say that was fairly common then Fred, for a shop to be on one sort of cloth?
R- Yes, one sort. Yes it were.
That's ideal really isn't it.
R- That were ideal really. I mean, if they could get back to them days with automatics they’d be laughing wouldn't they.
Yes. What sort of looms were there?
R- Cooper.
Were they all one sort?
R - All Coopers, spring tops.
(100)
Spring tops.
R- But when them looms were put in at first they were all plain.
Aye. Just were like a scotch dobby, ah what do they call them, like a roller top on them.
R- They just had a plain rollers and then when this sateen order started coming they put all spring tops on and undermotions so they could weave five shafts on them.
So they could weave five shafts on them, aye. At that time at Bracewell Hartley’s how many looms would there be in a tackler's set?
R- About a hundred and thirty six I think.
In one set?
R- In one set.
So they’d have three tacklers for four hundred looms?
R- That’s it.
They were fairly going then Fred weren't they.
R- Oh they talked about tacklers following looms by the acre you know. That were a saying, they had an acre of looms had a tackler. And when you think about it hundred and thirty six, some a hundred and forty, and you double them [the number of looms per weaver] like with the spindles and buffers and all, all the spindles had to be kept tight and good buffers on.
How did they manage to follow a hundred and thirty six, hundred and forty?
(5 min)
R- Well for one thing you might say the looms had just got running, [were new] there were no trouble with the looms. They were kind of a light loom and a light weave, they weren't heavy sorts thrashing at the loom and they' d very few breakages. Pickers and shuttle pegs were the biggest breakages what they had.
Would you say there were any difference in quality of loom furnishings then to now? You know, like shuttles, leathers, pickers?
(150)
R- Well, they’d a lot less shuttle and they had a lot less work, they ran better did them little shuttles, they were perfect. They were made of good woody and I will say this about Hartley’s, what I can remember now looking back, he bought the best. It were the best leather, best buffers, best shuttles, and best shuttle pegs. I daresay he gained a lot with it at the finish. In fact buffers, it cost as much as picking bands did the buffers that he used. They lasted.
Were they leather buffers?
R - Yes they were some kind of chrome. [leather]
I know sommat of that. Under the engine house we have some old leather there that they must have got out of a mill somewhere. Jim’s tried all sorts but we can't find anything it'll do for at all. They are like a short leather if you will, they're just the wrong size for anything like and the wrong weight but beautiful leather Fred. Chrome leather, and two pieces sewed together back to back you know, beautiful stuff. You know, the sort of leather that you don’t see nowadays, not full of oil and what not you know.
R- And you don’t know what they've been bought for?
Well they weren’t bought, I think they got them out of Withnell when they bought that mill at Withnell. They've been down the cellar there you know I don’t know how long. But that leather nowadays, if you were going to buy it it’d cost you a fortune. Anyway, you’re all on the old style there, carrying your pieces, plaiting them on the loom, carrying your own weft and sweeping your own looms. Now, I've often seen some of these old weavers, like Friday afternoon, they’d stop the looms Friday afternoon and sweep the looms. Did you used to do anything like that, or was it Saturday morning or what?
(200)
R- Well, some of them finished at Friday afternoon but most of them at Saturday morning. But you need to sweep round, say you had four with more or less full cops in and you go and sweep round a bit with all the looms running. Then when one stopped you came in and set it on and waited while you were all straight again and then went and swept a bit more. You could be on for an hour sweeping round if things weren't going just as they should do and then the biggest part of them was swept when they shouldn't be you know, at meal times and that. They were very reluctant to stop the looms to sweep ‘em.
How keen were such as management and tacklers on keeping the looms clean?
R- Oh they were very particular were the tacklers, all the looms had to he swept and oil holes picked out you know, where the oil went, and all to be oiled. All the trap rods to be oiled when the warp came out. And that tended to good running. You wouldn’t find any worn parts on them looms in them days. Unless there was sommat out of the ordinary happened. I don't think they’d ever have any brasses worn out in the cranks or any picking balls what wouldn’t go round. But they'd only four loom in them days, they could watch them better couldn’t they than they can when they've fifteen or sixteen looms. Every time they give them a loom they double don’t they, the leathers and all that.
When you say they double the leathers do you mean they wear out quicker? Like because they've got too many to look after.
R- That’s it aye. Don’t you think that was what did it? A long picking band, a short picking band, finger leathers, check ends, bow leathers. The more looms a weaver
(10 min)
(250)
has and the more breakages they have with them haven't they? It finds them a lot of work. In fact when they gave them more looms the tacklers did a lot more work I think for the weavers. Where they'd put a short leather on, once of a day they’d never think of putting a picking band on for a weaver, but as they got more looms they got more work did the weavers and tacklers had to help them with putting picking bands on or if they saw ‘em with a leather broken they'd put one on for ‘em.
How much of your wage did you give your mother?
R- Oh she got it all. Then you got a penny in the shilling back. If you earned twenty four shilling you got two shilling back in them days.
Well that wouldn't he so bad really in them days.
R- No but you had to put a shilling in the bank.
So what day did you get paid?
R- I got paid on Thursdays.
Thursday. So you’ve drawn your money on Thursday, you've come home, you’ve given it to your mother and you've got a bob for yourself to spend. What would you do with that bob when you were fourteen?
R- I'd go to the pictures, twice a week to the pictures. You go at Wednesday, it were threepence. There weren't too many went at Wednesday, they nearly all went Monday and Thursday. Then at Wednesday it ware threepence on the forms at the front. Well that left you a ninepence. If you go Saturday afternoon it might be fourpence. Then you buy a few toffees, or happen buy a comic paper. You'd nowt left after the weekend, it had all gone. But it weren't the case you got any more, you'd to wait while Thursday before you got your spending money again. But it went into the house. I mean, it weren't thrown away, me mother looked after that. And as they (300)
used to say them days, they'd be careful people. And as soon as the children started working we got on us feet.
That's right. That's something I find very interesting Fred. Would you say that it is true to say that a lot of families bought their houses when they got the kids working?
R- That’s it, yes. It made all the difference to ‘em didn't it. I heard me mother say that many a time. And yet now, when you get older you can realise it.
Yes. I think that’s probably the reason why Nelson, I think I'm right in saying that Nelson has the highest proportion of owner occupied houses in the country. And I think that's probably the reason why because they were small houses you know, they weren't bad to buy really and a lot of people bought them. Families bought their houses in those days when they had fair big families and they wore all working and plenty of work about. And like those houses have stuck in the families you know, the families have tended to stick together. Like leaving their houses to the kids.
R – That’s it, yes.
How would you say your employer treated you?
R- Well, personally he tret me well. I liked him. But he were like a lot more in them days, he were a bit slave-driving. 'Cause as I said before, it were their money what they had invested in the mill. And they were there to see that they got as much back for it as they could. They might as well have had it invested in the bank if they weren’t going to get any return.
Aye that's it. I’ll tell you something, I don't know whether you’ll know anything about it. When children were going half time, it was thirteen year old you could go half time. [I’m slightly confused about the question of Fred half-timing at 13 years old because as I understand it, the 1918 Education Act raised the school leaving age to 14 years and abolished half timing. Fred was born in December 1908 and so would only be ten in 1918 and should have missed half timing. The only thing I can see is that under the 1918 Act, half timing was allowed in rural districts until 1922 but specified work on the land. Perhaps the mill owners were taking advantage of this loophole.] Did you ever know of any cases where people went before they were legally old enough, before they were of legal age?
(350)
(15 min)
R- No.
Would you say they were fairly strict on people being old enough?
R- Yes in my time. Then you are going back, say in my father’s time they talk about working at eleven didn't they?
Yes. I think Billy Brooks…
R- They didn't bother much about leaving school in them days
I think Billy Brooks were working at ten years old. They could go in when they were ten, half timing and eleven they left school.
R- Left school.
Aye. And you went weaving, how long were you weaving Fred?
R- Four or five years.
Five years so that ud be about 1927, something like that.
R- Yes.
How many looms did you finish up with?
R- Four, four were the maximum. At that place, there were nobody had more than four.
Nobody had more than four loom. Aye, that’s interesting. There would be five loom weavers elsewhere in the town weren't there?
R- In the town yes, there wore odd fives and sixes.
Yes. But sixes would have a tenter on?
R- Had tenters, yes.
Aye. So what happened then, you got up to four looms, 1927. What happened then?
R- Well, it’d be about 1926, me father were a tackler there at Bracewell Hartley’s and in 1926 they wanted a man at Birley’s at Albion Shed. The manager, he had to keep going across the road, they had two mills. So they wanted what you might call a boss tackler, a manager to run a few looms so me father got this job and there were two tacklers on full sets then there were me father on this little set and then they had what they called an apprentice set. So that were like two little sets, a whole set divided into two. Well, the fellow what were on the little set, he lived at Colne and I don't know why but he packed up. So there
(400)
were one or two overlookers out of work, but nobody applied for this little set ‘cause there weren't enough money off it really, it were only you know, like a weaver’s wage. So, with me father being there of course, he says: “You better go up and see about it. See if they’ll let you come.” So I went to see me uncle Willy [William Crowther, salesman/manager at A J Birley’s]and he said “Yes, you can have a start.”
Your uncle Willy being…?
R- He were t’boss. Well, you know, he run it for Birley's
Yes, aye. What was his name?
R- Crowther.
Crowther aye.
R- And he gave me like, the low down, what I had to do and what I wouldn't have to do. And when I went to see this tackler what had come on to me father’s set at Hartley’s I told him I was going to where me dad was at Birley’s because I had the chance of this little set and he said that I was doing quite right. So he told the boss like, Mr Bracewell Hartley and he came to me and he said “Th’art leaving us arta?” Just like that. I said yes and he said “Well, I'm going to give thee a bit of good advice Fred. Keys in bosses want knocking up with a toffee hammer, not a big hammer and t’nuts on’t wheels, the cog wheels are to stop them falling off the shaft not to fasten them on to t’shaft. They fasten ‘em on wi’ keys. Bear that in mind. And if tha doesn’t like and you want to come back, if there’s a vacancy here tha can come back.” I thought that were worth a lot weren’t it In them days.
Nice way to leave a shop Fred.
R- I always remember it, “You knock those keys up wi’ a toffee hammer!” And he is right, he were right. Some of them were bashing ‘em up wi’ big hammers and bursting ‘em.
Bursting the boss, aye.
R- Some like, they’d have a bottom wheel loose. They’d tighten the nut up before they’d fastened with the key. As for Bracewell, I thought you know, will he play heck with me or will he say well, we’ve let you laik about long enough and you’re leaving us! But he didn’t, no, he were very nice about it and the tackler what I left, he were always friendly like. “How are you going on?” And we always stayed friendly right up to him dying.
(450)
How much were t’tacklers getting then for their wage? What were they getting out of the weavers? What were the rate?
R- I wouldn't like to say how much it were in the pound at Bracewell’s but they'd have double a weaver's wage in them days.
(20 min)
What were it when you went to Birley’s at Albion Shed?
R- I think it were about one and fourpence ha’penny in the pound of what weavers earned. But they had some better quality stuff in at Birley’s you know, happen earn a bit mores money off them than what they could at Bracewell’s.
When you say better quality, better quality in what way Fred?
R- Egyptians, Egyptian weaves.
So, better yarn like.
R- Better yarn and a lot of picking, better pay. And you used to get, you had your troubles when you got some of those right heavies, fine reeds and you know, you used to get a lot of dawn in and that, shuttles flying out. But it was alright, we plodded on.
[Yarn shedding dawn during the weaving process caused trouble because it clogged the reeds and caused breakages. Tape sizing of warps was done to mitigate this.]
Aye. And when you went down, you’re a weaver. You've gone down there and you've got a small set. How would you start to learn tackling? I mean, what was the procedure then? Did you start and people mucked you out and you gradually got to learn or how?
R- Oh, in them days, if there was a young lad on a set of looms working under a tackler ... There were mostly women that worked there you know in the mill or fellows that were really too old to do anything else. If you had a young lad what were willing they just had to mug about with the tackler, there were no getting paid for it. You were stopping in at night, half past five in the day like, happen putting a warp in. He [the tackler] might have a big job on, you stopped in and helped him and he’d show you how to do and that’s how you learnt it with him. And then as time went on, sometimes he’d come into me alley and it's, “There is a warp out down theer, go and put it in.” And he’d run me looms while I went to put this warp in. I'd only be sixteen er seventeen and I were going up and down putting warps in.
Where were that? At Bracewell Hartley’s?
R- At Bracewell Hartley’s.
So you’re dad’s started bringing you on quietly before then. So by the time you went to Birley’s you’d have an idea of what you were doing.
R- Well I had more or less. I had a rough idea yes, certain. Running of the looms and changing wheels and such as that. And that were how they all learned in them days.
(500)
Was there any such thing as a course at night school or anything like that Fred?
R- You could go to t’night school if you had the time. But they had to go to Colne to night school and it were a case of this, they'd to catch a train and if they stopped in the mill while half past five they hadn't really time to get any tea and get clanged to catch t’train to Colne. And why I didn’t go were, we’ll say you went at Wednesday night and this tackler had a warp out. You’re coming out about twenty five past five and he’d expect you to stop in and put that warp in. You wouldn't have to go to night school, you know, that were your job putting that warp in, never mind night school. That were how they looked at it in them days.
Yes. So there were no real encouragement to, you know, to go to night school and get all the theory.
R- No. Some of them what went to night school, they went thinking that they'd get a better job sometime you know, managing or sommat like that, they’d have all the theory. But there were some of them who turned out all right, but there were some of them were duck eggs even though they’d been to night school.
And so you wouldn't he serving an apprenticeship, you never served an apprenticeship like indentures or owt like that?
R- No. There wore no apprenticeship but you'd got to, like when I got this job at Birley’s, you had to change out of the Weaver’s Union into the Tacklers. I got into the Tackler’s Union without any bother.
Yes, well that’s the next thing I want to ask you really. How soon after you started weaving were you approached about going into the union?
R- Oh as soon as you got two looms. I don’t think you paid just as much. If it [the full subscription] were a shilling you might have paid ninepence when you'd only two looms. Then when you got to four loom you’d pay full up a shilling.
So you joined the Weaver’s Union straight away
(550)
R- Yes.
And was there, how can I put it, if you didn’t want to join did you have to?
R- No not really, they weren't so bigoted about it.
But did most people join?
R- Biggest part on 'em did yes. And same as in my case, it paid me, not exactly because me mother paid it, to be in the Weavers Union so as if there were any chance of being a tackler I could transfer into the Tackler’s Union. It were no use not being in the weavers, then thinking you could walk into the Tackler’s because you couldn’t.
Is that right?
(25 min)
R- Aye. If you hadn't been in the weavers there'd have been no chance of getting in the tacklers. And it is more or less that today. But you know, all me life that were what I wanted to be, and I got to be one.
Aye that's it. What would you say were the benefits of being in the union? Apart from the fact that you could transfer into the tackler’s. What were the benefits of being in the union?
R- It was just a case that if you've to have any breakdowns or anything like that. Sometimes sommat would go wrong, but very seldom in a modern mill. You know there might be, in an old place, a cog wheel go, a driving wheel you know. There’d be a length of shafting stopped. Well, you’d draw a shilling or two out of the union for that.
Right, so like if you were losing money with them looms being stopped, if you were in the union you’d draw for that?
R- You'd draw out a little bit to make up for it. But I don’t think I ever drew owt out of the weaver’s union. Then there were that convalescent home if you were in the Weavers Union and you were badly. If you were off your work for so long they got you into a convalescent home.
What job was your brother doing?
R- He were the same, weaving.
And he didn't really like it did he.
R- No he didn’t. Though he never grumbled, he went.
Did he stay at Bracewell Hartley's when you shifted to Birley’s?
R- Yes he stopped theer until the thirty-two strike. Then he, after the strike he went back to sweeping.
(600)
What was the hierarchy in the mill, then? The ladder of power, you know, starting from the manager at the top, the owner at the top then work your way down the rungs of the ladder and tell me what order people came in.
R- Well, at these little places there were t’boss at the top. And then there’d he what they call the boss cut-looker. If there were any spoilt cloth well he had authority to sack the weaver had the cut-looker. Then tacklers, they were in authority, they could set ‘em on and stop ‘em if they wanted. [The weavers] I don't suppose, well if the boss saw owt out of the ordinary he’d stop them. But them were who were the bosses over the workers. Then you’d have a boss in the twisting room, generally a loomer, and he’d be in charge of the twisters, if they didn’t pull their weight he were in authority to straighten them up a bit. But there were no managers at a lot of places in Earby, it were just boss cut-looker and tacklers.
I've heard people say that many a time what you describe, how the weaving manager at a mill, it were a job that they sometimes had a job getting anybody to take because they didn't like to take somebody like a tackler because to get 'em to take that job they’d have to give him a little bit more wage. It meant they’d be paying him too much so somebody once told me it were nearly always a cut-looker that got made into the weaving manager. Would you say that were right?
R- Yes. I think there is a lot of truth in that.
Yes, because it would take less of an increase to get him to take the job.
R- That’s it. There is a lot of truth in that. Although there were one manager at Birley’s before I ever went and he’d be theer when me father went. And he’d been a tackler, and a good tackler, and he got stopped because he were too good to the tacklers. If they were having trouble with a loom they’d go to him and tell him and then he’d go and nine times out of ten he’d get it going. He was so good a man. And I think that this Mr Birley had been walking round, and he'd seen a tackler sat down doing nowt and the manager was tackling one of his looms. And he must have seen these things happening several times because he didn't miss much when he walked round. He used to walk round the mill every day like. At the finish he got stopped did this manager for doing other people's work, not being strict enough making
(650)
(30 min)
the tackler do it. He said it were his place to make the tackler do it, not do it himself. But he were one of them sort of fellows he'd do it himself afore have any bother. Well that didn't work with management.
And then, in the mill then in them days there were no sweepers, no cloth carriers, no roller carriers. There were just weavers then.
R- That’s all.
And weavers would all be treated the same? Now, thinking back, and try and be as fair as you can about this Fred, how do you think weavers were treated?
R- Oh they were treated harshly I should think. They were under the thumb all the time. As regarded to make as good a cloth as they could, and they had to make as much as they could. Tacklers used to sit on a form where they could watch the toilets and all that and they had an idea how long they'd been in the toilet, and if they were in it too long he might just have given them a bit of a hint. Although you know they only had four looms, well when anybody went in the warehouse for some weft and then they had a loom stopped, the next weaver [would set it on again] You know they used to work together did a lot of them. There were never any looms stopped. If there were a man and his wife working, they both worked together.
There was never any bother then about somebody leaving the looms running if they went out?
R- Oh no. They used to leave them running, t’other would look on for them.
Aye. What sort of an atmosphere would you say there were in the shed? Do you think that the weavers who were working in the shed…. I’m trying to be very careful here, how do you think they regarded the way they were treated? I mean, you’ve wove yourself, but I mean some of them would have been weaving for twenty or thirty years, do you think they had any strong views?
R- They had a chip on their shoulder had a lot of them, thinking they were being treated rough. Although it were a way of life in them days, it didn't matter which place they were, they were more or less treated the same. It were a case of this, to get as much cloth off as they could or else get out.
(700)
Looking back would you say it was a harsh system?
R- It were, yes. If you think, they were always wondering whether the tackler were coming round and going to see you doing sommat you shouldn’t have been. And as regards like, you know, reading or [sitting], no good at all. Even if you had a book what you could read at meal time you had to put that book out of sight, you hadn’t to put it in your weft tin, you hadn’t to have it on your buffet, it had to be out of sight; then there were no danger of you reading.
Where did you take your meals then?
R- Well, if you stopped in you just sat on a buffet in your alley.
Aye, and have a clean tablecloth?
R- There were no tablecloths.
Well, there'd be cloth on t’looms wouldn't there.
R- Aye, but you hadn't to put your can on theer.
Is that right?
R- I mean you took your tea can, you brewed up at home then you took your can and you filled it up at work at the hot water boiler. It weren't boiling, it were just hot water. [When Fred says ‘brewed at home’ he means mashing the tea by pouring a little boiling water on the tea leaves. This would brew normally with just hot water in the mill.]
And did you have to pay for that hot water?
R- Not in my time. Not at Bracewell Hartley’s but they were doing at Birley's. Them that wanted to, a lot wouldn’t do. It was a penny a week for hot water. The warehouse man used to stand there when they were coming away from the office with their wage, he were stood there and you'd to put a penny into the tin. A bit harsh were that, weren’t it?
(35 min)
Well, I've often thought so. I mean, you reckon up a place like Bancroft, that kettle in the warehouse. I've worked it out many a time, they'd have eleven hundred loom running so eleven hundred looms, that’d be, well, if you divide ‘em by four, there were eleven times twenty five that’d be two hundred and fifty, there'd he about two hundred and sixty weavers and two hundred and sixty pennies a week. That’s a pound a week. Now in them days, a ton of coal cost about between ten bob and fifteen bob, it depended when you looked at it, say about fifteen bob a ton. I mean we’ll say it were a pound a ton. It didn't take a ton of bloody coal to keep that boiler going for a week you know?
R- No, there were a profit on the boiler weren’t there.
Aye. And I’ve often thought that when you come to think about it, the hot water boiler in a shop where they charged them a penny a week for hot water were the most profitable thing in the place Fred.
R- I should think it would be wouldn’t it, aye.
Aye. But anyway, one of the things about the mill was really that there were no such thing as labourers and tradesmen and craftsmen were there? It was a very loose knit organisation really wasn't it?
R- Yes, very.
But when you think about it, it was when you think about things like engineering where you had apprentices and journeymen and labourers and skilled men and foreman and such as that, a skilled hand was worth more that the others. But the only way that a weaver, a skilled weaver, could make more than an unskilled weaver in them days was by rolling more cloth off.
R- That’s it, being quicker. [There is an important principle embedded in here which I think the manufacturers had deliberately encouraged. They had a system which deprived the weavers of official status, the only criterion was how much you earned and this fostered competition in the shed between the weavers thus benefiting production and profit. This was as true in 1978 when Bancroft finished as it was in the days Fred is describing. The whole of the manufacturing system was geared to this end.]
Yes, aye. How long were pieces then
R- A hundred yards.
Would you say that was standard?
R- More or less, a fair good standard.
Aye. How many pieces could you get off a loom in a week?
R- Well, it depended on the picks as I’ve said before you know, or whether they put them on to three marks. You get some kinds in you’d get two off in a week. Then you might get another, a three marker, and you wouldn’t get one a week off it. As I said, they’d go from 45 pick up to 62 pick, like a fair jump weren’t it? And make three marks and all.
Like when you say 'make three marks’, marks come every….
R- Every 50 yards.
Every fifty so that’d be a hundred and fifty yards piece.
R- Hundred and fifty yard were that, yes.
Like a fair big piece of cloth.
R- Aye, you didn’t get a lot, but you did get them occasionally. And it’s funny, I always remember the heading, one black. You put headings in in them days.
That’s it. I’ve often wondered, is there any particular way they worked them headings out, or is it peculiar to each mill. I mean, would a two brown at the moment at Bancroft, it's a right good piece of cloth. Would a two brown at, say when the mills were running, would a two brown at Birley's be the same as a two brown at Bancroft?
R- No, they had their own headings for their own cloth. But they had to put them in in them days and to us, it's just as good as writing on it but they had to put headings in.
What do you mean put their headings in?
R - You know, with colours.
Oh that’s it aye, we still have a lot of them.
R- Aye, you have to put them in with the heading bobbin and it were funny were that, there wore some, they'd happen be one red and then some would be a four. “Oh blooming heck, a four!” You know it took you a lot longer to put a four in than one and they used to natter about all them little fractions of a minute.
Yes. When you were putting a heading in did you use t'same shuttle or did you have another shuttle with your bobbin in?
R- Well, some of them they had what they call heading shuttles and …
Aye, that they’d use….
R- And they used to he small and very slack in the box. And they used to throw it in and set the loom on ‘cause they’d only do two picks, there and back, and they never shoved it up you know, throw it in and it went into the box and across. And then you put two picks of red in then four picks of white and then two picks of red again you know? That’s why they had a lot of heading shuttles, they were less than the others and as I said, they used to throw them in and set the loom on. As soon as they knew it had gone up to the picker they set it on and it'd pick across and back again without any bother. I mean they couldn’t have set the loom on and woven four or five picks but just for a couple of picks.
(800)
(40 min)
Aye. Now your father, in the first world war, he’d be tackling all the time, he wouldn’t go away to the war.
R- No, he were tackling all the time at Bracewell's.
That's it. So none of your family served in the army?
R- No. [Fred has made a mistake here I think. Earlier he said that his brother went to the war.]
Was there any other sort of work, I know I’ve asked you this before, but in Earby itself, apart from the mill, I’m not talking about going joinering in Skipton or owt like that but was there anything else in Earby besides the mill?
R- There was just joiner’s shops, builders, blacksmiths like, there were two blacksmiths, that were the main things, and other bits of jobs.
Yes. And Browns would have shifted up to Barlick by then, they wouldn't be at the back of the Albion.
R- They were at the back of the Albion when I were a kid.
Aye. But they moved up to Barlick like didn’t they so I mean that finished that job you know. There wouldn't be anything there.
R- That's right, aye.
How about girls, was there anything else for girls. If a girl didn’t want to go in a mill was there any other alternative for her?
R- No, unless she went servant or sommat like that, or dressmaking.
Yes. You said something interesting that intrigued me, just a while since, you said that really there weren’t many men in the mill, they were mostly women that were in, or the older end. Well if that were so, where were the men?
R- Well, it were a case of there’d be some would be farmers, and their wives would come to work in the mill. And they might he carters and the wives worked at the mill. Like them little, they’re little jobs aren't they? Gas works and such.
Yes. Would you say that, I don’t know whether you'd notice this but 1 mean .. during the first world war there were a lot of men got killed. And a lot of women went to work in the first world war that had never been to work before. And would you say that there were a bigger proportion of widows then? Was it noticeable at all?
R- Widows and spinsters? There’d be quite a lot of them.
But, I've asked that question badly you know. I have more or less put it into your mouth which is something I shouldn’t do. But was it noticeable that there were spare women of that age about?
R- Yes, it were. Well when I were thirteen or fourteen, after the war, you could notice it, there were several widows, war widows and women what probably the boyfriends had been killed in the war. They never got married.
(850)
Yes, which is just as bad as being widowed really.
R- That’s right, and they never got on with anyone else.
Yes. What would the attitude be towards people that had been in the army? You know, like blokes that had been in the war and came back. I mean was there anything of the conquering hero bit, or was it just, you know…
R- No, they came back and where they’d left a firm to go, to be called up, they got to start up again when they came back. But you get a mill like Grove, that they were a bit slipshod happen here, and it were a big place. Some would go there 'cause they were quite happy to earn a little bit less money there than go to one of these other places.
Would you say Fred, I know you were very young at the time but I mean with hindsight, looking back, would you say there was any difference between, any noticeable difference between the men who had been at the war and the men who hadn’t gone?
R- No, I never noticed.
No. The reason I asked you that is that I know from talking to you and talking to one or two other people, that they did, the fact that they’d been to the war and been away and been abroad altered their outlook on life and they were different men when they came back than when they went. I was just wondering whether anything of that sort had struck you about the first world war?
R- No it didn't strike me about the first world war.
I mean, a good way of putting it I should think was at the time when you were working in the mill. Was it possible to more or less pick the ones out that had been in the army you know. Could you tell if they were for any reason?
(45 min)
R- The young fellows what had come back, well all you could tell then were really with their smartness and it wore off eventually and they were just like anybody else. And things were bad you know, there were none of them could swank so much about “I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that.”
Aye, that’s one thing about it isn’t it because very shortly after they came back, 1918, I mean they had ten years and then they are coming into it weren't they, hard times.
R- Aye they were bad times.
SCG/24 April 2003
7,291 words
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/12
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 30th OF NOVEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Hard times this week, that's what we're on. Narthen, in most parts of the country the 1920's were bad, there were a depression on. What were it like in Earby Fred?
R- Well it didn’t hit 'em as early as it hit some but we'll say when it got to 1926 and 1927 it started hitting ‘em then. And by about 1930 there were, it were bad.
So the cotton trade wasn’t too bad like say 1920 to 25.
R – No. It were after that when it started in Earby. There were some on ‘em, Grove [Nutter Brothers] they shut up and a firm called Thomas Henry Hartley, they shut up. Pickles's [shut], another firm called Joe Foulds [closed] they were on New Road. [Brook Shed] There were one, two, three shut up on New Road but that Foulds were about two hundred looms but it had been a good place to work at up to then. And then they just simply shut up all at once. But like when Grove shut up that were a big do 'cause as I say before, they had looms in Grove, they also had looms in Albion and looms up at Sough, well it all finished did that. Well they called them Nutters [Nutter Bros] what had Grove Mill and then this Grove Mill had been stopped a while, and then Nutters from Barlick came and gaited some up in it. I don’t know whether it ‘ud be Nutters from Bancroft lot or not would it?
Yes I think it were. I think it were Wilfred anyway.
R - Wilfred aye.
I have an idea Wilfred had something to do with it because I’ve heard somebody else talk about that.
R - Mm..
And so what were the effect of that, obviously people out of work. How did you notice people were out of work?
R- Oh there were no doubt there were a real depression on. If ever you went down Earby, you know, standing at street corners and lolling about in lumps, nowt else to do. And at signing on day it were like it used to be when you were going to Blackpool, great long queues waiting of the train.
What, waiting of the train to go up to Barlick?
R- Well no, when they were signing on in Earby..
(50)
Yes, yes.
R - They signed on in Earby but sometimes you had to go to Barnoldswick to sign on but you had it to walk.
Yes.
R- And they had one [dole office] right down Gisburn Road, an old tin chapel down Gisburn Road, we’d to walk to there.
Aye.
R- And after you'd signed on there well you got to sign on at Earby. Top of the Weaver’s Institute.
Aye, I remember you telling me about that. Was your dad out of work? Now wait a minute, I think you told me that none of you were out of work at same time like you were..
R – No.
There was always somebody working,
R- Yes. Aye we were lucky. We were lucky ‘uns.
Of course, the worst hit ‘ud be them that were all working at the same mill wouldn't it.
R- That's it, all what they say, all their eggs in one basket, weren’t it?
Aye. How would that affect such as tramp weavers and that? Would they stop coming, you know, vanish like or were they still about.
R - Aye they stopped coming, there were no work for them. They'd disappear somewhere else. There were Courtaulds what started up down Derby and there were a few from Earby went down there weaving.
Aye.
R- Fellas.
Was that about that time?
R- That time yes.
Yes, how about leaving town for other jobs, you know, like..
R- There were a few vent down Luton, aircraft, motor car. One lad what went down to Luton about same age as me, he went down he did fairly well. Then he got out into business, and back in Earby retired now. That were, you know, if there hadn't have been this depression come he might have been just plodding on ordinary to-day.
When you say that some of them went down Luton, what would persuade 'em to go down Luton. I mean would there be some sort, were people from Luton recruiting up here or what.
(5 mins)
R- Well there were plenty of work with motor works.
Yes but how did they get to know about that work? Have you any idea?
R- They'd be advertised in the paper, wanting workers. Same as they said, beds never got cold. [Laughs] There were three on 'em sleeping in one bed. On three shifts and that kind of carry on. You went down and you get some lodgings and you send for your mates, like come down, I can get you in. Some never came back, stopped there all time.
Aye, I know at least one fella that did that.
R- There were one or two good bands men and they went. Got into the band you know in some of these big works. Wi’ being good bands men they got a job there. And they’re still down is some on ‘em. Some's dead of course but there's some still there, young uns.
Aye. who were out of work first would you say. Well it wouldn't make much difference would it. I were just going to say who were out of work first, men or women, but it wouldn't make any difference would it in Earby. If the mill went out that were it.
(100)
R - That were it.
How long were they before they started picking up again Fred?
R- Nineteen thirty six or thirty seven, just before war.
So you can say there were nearly ten years.
R - Yes. It would be, it ud be ten year.
How did that effect you, did you have any short time working?
R- Very little. No I were lucky, we had very little as regards stopping and signing on but you got so you were working full hours but you'd only like a third of your production or sommat like that. Allus a lot of looms stopped.
Yes.
R- Waiting for warps, orders and that.
Yes. And you were working at that time, you were working at..
R- Birley's, AJ Birley's. At Albion.
Can you remember anything about the general strike in 1926?
R- I can just remember, 1926 were it?
Aye.
R- Yes I can, little bits are coming back. You were getting all sorts of muck in mills to try and burn. Aye that's it, ‘cause the miners were on strike.
R- Aye. And I don’t think they could keep the steam up right. The engine kept stopping. And then you were going up and down looking for wood to put on your fires.
At home.
R- Aye, although it were summer time weren’t it when they were out on strike. But what we call going down by Booth bridge, there’s some rows of trees in a field. Somebody set the tale out you could go down and chop 'em, chop these trees down and fetch your wood home. Well [laughs] they were going down in droves till the police stopped ‘em. There were a lot of big trees cut down and it were impossible to carry 'em home wi’ them fellas what cut ‘em down. They were cutting 'em down wi’ ordinary saws and be the time they'd sawn the tree down they hadn’t strength to saw a piece off to fetch home. I don't think anybody got summonsed for it but the police were down and stopped ‘em.
Aye. Can you remember did it make any difference wi’ the railways being stopped, you know like, things like food coming in, fish and all the rest of it.
(10 mins)
R- Yes they were short of them essential things and first time I went to a football match ud be in 1926. There were a first division [match] that stuck in me mind like, this strike being on.
What do you mean, that stuck in your mind because of the strike?
R- Well that were first time I'd been to a first division football match and it were that year the strike were on.
Aye where were that at?
R- We went to Burnley.
Burnley Aye, Turf moor.
R- And now they’re going when they're five and six year old aren’t they? And I were working then.
Oh aye It's regular isn't it. If they’re at home and if they're away they follow 'em away. Well you mention football, when you started work, once you got working how did your spare time activities change.
R- Well I still used to do a lot round about home for me father like, with the hen pens and garden. Although me brother were, he were very keen on cycling and he hadn't much interest in poultry or gardening. Well, he got older and then he became a gardener then!
Did you do any cycling.
R- I used to do a bit but nowt like he used to do.
Aye.
R- I mean he used to.
Were he in a club?
R- Aye in a club and then eventually he bought a tandem. And I've been on tandem wi’ him a time or two. We had a week off on it once. We set off at Sunday and me mother put us two jam jars full of butter, I think we’d two brown loaves and a couple of bananas and we went to Rhyl first stop. First stop to have bed and breakfast but he were one of these; there wore no stopping for a cup of tea, you'd to [keep going] ..he knew where there were a lot of these wells in villages and that and you went there and you had a pot of water for your dinner, wi’ your grub. Happen butter and bread. [laughs] and a banana. Then when you got to where you wore stopping all night, well, it had to be a very light tea, finish off wi’ fruit. He were like a vegetarian in them days. Then morning following he
(200)
wouldn't have bacon and egg, he’d have a banana, you know off where we got bed and breakfast. I allus had a bit of bacon and egg but that weren’t his way of going on. And I think all told we got back home again at Friday. Set off at Sunday and got back home at Friday and it cost us about £2-10-0 apiece. That's all it cost us. We had a full weeks holiday and went as far as Caernarfon.
Aye. Course that ud be a weeks wage in them days wouldn't it?
R- Oh yes it were a weeks wage yes. We’d saved up hard for this.
Like folk would save up all year just for weeks holiday wouldn't they.
R- For one week.
One weeks freedom.
R- Aye. And then you lived like a millionaire when you went to Blackpool they used to say.
Aye. I don't know whether it were you I asked that question or whether it were Ernie. When you say you lived like a millionaire, if you went to Blackpool say for a couple of days, not necessarily a week and you lived like a millionaire in them days, what would that consist of? What would you call living like a millionaire?
R- Well you wouldn't be taking your food to a lodging house, you'd board. And it were about 6/6 a day for boarding. And then if you fancied going to a show at afternoon, you'd go to a show at afternoon, if you fancied one at night you'd go to one at night. Whatever you fancied you could afford to do it. And I mean, a millionaire couldn't do any more could he.
No, they could only eat three meals a day Fred.
(15 mins)
R- Aye they could only, if you wanted to go at afternoon, go at afternoon. That's what they used to say. ‘Living like a millionaire’.
Did you have a holiday regular each year?
We did when we got older. But we never did up to starting work. The first time I went to Blackpool I were thirteen. Although I'd been to Morecambe a few times before but first time I’d been to Blackpool I were thirteen.
Were Barlick. holidays same week as Earby?
R- No I don't think they were. I think they varied and their September did as well.
What did they have in September then? September holiday?
R- Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Go back at Thursday,
Aye. That were instead of having like Easter and Whitsun weren’t it.
R- No we didn't have Whitsuntide In Earby.
That's it aye.
R- We used to have Good Friday and Easter Monday.
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Aye.
R- But no Whitsuntide.
Aye.
R- But when I got to be about fifteen and sixteen if there were any chance of going hay timing you know, when I'd had my tea. And down what you call this Booth Bridge, I had a mate and he were on the dole and this farmer wanted a hay time man so he got on there for a fortnight and it were a bit of good weather and this farmer must have said, do you know anybody what’ll come down at nights. And he said “Aye one of me mates will.” So he told me and we finished at half past five; I dashed home, got me tea and on me bike. You could ride on your bike all way there. You used to work while half past ten at night and when it got to be Saturday as they'd finished I didn't know owt about payment for hay time. So he said “What do you want.” I said “I don’t know.” He says “Well, if I give you thirty bob will you be satisfied?” I said aye because every night when you'd finished you went in and it were very plain but you'd two slices of toast and two poached eggs. And about happen eight o'clock at night you got some sad cake or sommat like that and tea. You were well looked after and I thought my word, thirty bob! [laughs]
Aye it ud be like a holiday wouldn't it.
R- Aye, you were in clover wi’ that.
It ud be like getting paid for being on holiday. Did you do anymore hay timing for anybody else?
R- Oh yes aye. I did a bit up here [Stoneybank]and 1 used to go as far as Lothersdale. Not going looking or asking for it but fellas what I knew and they'd say will you come up? You know, one ud happen be coming down Earby for some shopping and they'd call, I lived further up then and they'd say to the wife “If Fred’s nowt on to-night, tell him to come up. I've getten a lot ready for leading [carting into the barn]2 I’ve been at Lothersdale at half past ten many a time at night in summer.
Aye. And in the mill in the morning.
R- Aye, [laughs] daren’t miss.
Aye, them were the days Fred.
R - Aye going to bed about twelve and up again at six.
Did you go to any dances?
R- I never went to any dances till I got wed, no I were never interested in them and never interested in billiard halls or owt like that. I preferred to be outside if there were any chance.
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What year did you get married Fred?
R- 1932.
Thirty two.
R- Just a fair do….
Aye you've served your time haven't you! Forty six year. Aye you'll be out of your apprenticeship shortly.
R- And it were one of them does when we got wed, it were just about five there that were about all. Couldn't afford any big do.
Aye 1932. Course times ud be bad then wouldn’t they.
R- They were. I didn't think owt about it and then when we’d been wed forty year, the wife she ordered a do down at the White Lion and there mere about twenty or twenty four came you know, what we really couldn't afford to ask when we did get wed.
Aye but she didn't get you to go to church and have vows again then?
R- No.
No, happen thought that were a bit to dangerous.
R- Happen.
Aye. When you went to dances Fred where were they?
(20 mins)
R- Like wife had allus been a keen dancer but it never appealed to me even when we were courting like, I wouldn't go. Then later on we, eventually we started going a bit. Farmers ball and happen sommat to do wi’ the works, you know, a bit of a do from work.
Aye. How about cinema? Still cinema over the Weavers Institute or had the Empire opened then?
R- Empire were opened aye.
How about, you know, theatre you know, plays. Did any travelling companies ever come to town?
R- Yes they used to come to the Empire, picture place.
Aye. Can you remember any of them?
R- I couldn’t remember their names but I can remember going.
Aye. How about plays you used to see?
R- Well what's the library now, they called that Cosy. They made that into a picture house. There were two picture houses once in Earby. And same as, what do they call them, operatic society, dramatic society. They had a dramatic society and they used to have does on at the Cosy. And Earby Amateur Operatic Society, they used to have the Empire once a year and them were allus good does, well attended and well put over, all local people
(350).
Aye.
R- In fact there wore a fells, they called him Moorhouse, Johnny Moorhouse, he used to compose these, music and everything and conduct 'em and he were gaffer over ‘em. And some on 'em were all about local farms and history and courting these farmers daughters and all that and it all fit in to a real good do.
Aye.
R- And there were one, it allus stuck in me mind. There's a farm up here called Bleara Side isn’t there. And “There's a farm house on the hill side that I haven’t
seen for days.” That's one that's gone away to be a servant or sommat like that. Probably.
Aye, that's it aye.
R- I asked one or two what were in it, if they knew the words and no, they'd forgotten ‘em, they didn't bother. I would have liked all the words of that song 'cause it were a real grand un.
Aye. Talking about songs Fred, you know in a lot of industries there were like work songs and what not that you’d hear people singing. Did you ever hear any songs in the mill?
R- No.
Do you know it's funny, I've never come across anybody that did really. Course I’ll tell you whyI1 think it was, it were that bloody noisy in the mill that they couldn't hear themselves singing and I think that's top and bottom of it. But anyway, how about church? How were you at going to church?
R - Oh I went to church fairly regular. There were about four or six on us. We used to have to go regular and we allus turned up together.
Aye, and like that stuck after you started work?
R- We didn’t actually go mates but we were friends and we all attended church at came time.
Aye.
R - In fact I used to ring bell. they'd only one, it were a pipe and a hammer, I used to hit this pipe!
Is that right?
R- Aye, I rung that for quite a while.
Is that what the bell were at the church?
R- At Earby.
At Earby church.
R- Aye, one pipe and a hammer.
Aye.
R - And it got a bit too much. Another lad and me we said we’d take it on and then this other lad kept missing and it were throwing it on to me all the time and eventually he packed up altogether and they couldn't get anybody else to go. Well I’d to go at ten minutes
(400)
(25 mins)
to eight at Sunday when it were communion, twice a month. I’d to go at ten o’clock for morning service and I'd to go at half past five for six o'clock service and sometimes at night I used to ring the bell and then they all went in church and the choir had gone in and all that I used to come out and I used to go through the vestry and away. [laughs] I didn't go to church. And one Sunday when I landed the parson were waiting and he didn't half dress me down. I were ringing the bell to get people to come to church and then I were dodging away when they'd come. So I say's well it's a bit too much I says I never get a free minute. Oh well if you ring ‘em to come to church you'll have to stop and come in to the service. So I thought well, if that's his attitude I’ll give up ringing the bell. So I mentioned it to one fella what were in the choir, I said he's been on to me.” ‘Cause if they were in the choir, if they didn’t want to come to church, they didn't come to church. I were the only one, parson and me were the only ones what were going regular. So I telled him [the parson] and he said don’t bother. If I’m here and there’s nobody else I’ll ring it for you, have a Sunday off whenever you want. So eventually I faded out wi’ the job an all and I more or less packed up with church. I didn't like his attitudes
So when you got wed, where did you get wed?
R - Oh I got wed at Kelbrook.
Is that right.
R- Aye I didn’t get wed at Earby.
Were they at all sticky in them days about weddings and baptisms if you hadn’t been attending church regular?
R - Aye they were very, very queer were some of the parsons. They varied. This fella at Earby he were a bit of a queer un.
What were his name that bloke? Can you remember?
R- Atkinson. He were the first parson at Earby. He came under Thornton.
Yes.
(450)
R - And there were a service at Thornton at morning and then he used to come to Earby did parson at night. And then it were made into a parish were Earby and this Atkinson he come. And I dare say he were a good man for the church in a lot of ways but he wanted all his own way all the time. It wouldn't do for me. Because it were a case like this, when we went one Saturday night to put the banns in we knocked at door and I says we’re going to get married and I want to put the banns in. And then he comes out wi’ a book, never asked us in and names and all that, ages. We goes from there to Kelbrook, Oh he says, are you getting married at Earby? I says Kelbrook and he’d never asked us in before. We goes to Kelbrook after we left there. Up to Kelbrook, knocks at door and says we're thinking of getting married, like could we put the banns in? Yes come in, sit down. And I should think we’d be there for an hour and he didn't lecture you. He were really interesting to talk to. I thought well, what a difference.
Who were that?
R- Oh, I’ve forgotten his name now.
It's reight Fred.
R- He were a biggish farmer looking type.
These things go out of your mind. It's reight.
R- Anyway like when the lad wanted christening we christened him there an all.
Aye.
And he [Earby parson] came up quite a while after and he wanted to know why we never comed to church.
Who were this? Him from Earby?
R - Atkinson aye. And I told him [we weren’t going]. He says “Well your name’s on the electoral roll.” I says "Well". Well he says “I’m going to cross it off!” I says oh all right. He crossed it off and I never bothered no more. Well I thought that weren’t the way to do, it were the way to make communists were that.
That's it. Now, electoral roll, that's brought us nicely round to it. How about politics, did you take an interest in politics?
R- No, not particularly no.
Did you vote?
R- I voted when I got older, aye. When I were old enough, about eighteen.
(500) (30 mins)
Aye, when did you get the vote?
R- I think it were when I were eighteen. It's going back a bit.
What were your politics, were there any choice in Earby?
R- Well nearly all the young uns were on labour. Which they were labour then, they weren’t socialists they were… Them that were putting up they were more or less genuine.
When you say them that were putting up, that's more or less like for council elections isn't it. Because Parliamentary election you'd come under Skipton would you?
R- Come under Skipton with that yes.
So were there ever a labour candidate for Skipton as you can remember?
R- At Earby?
Yes.
R- Oh yes.
Parliamentary election like.
R - Yes. Aye and they were real genuine you know, Quaker type. Them were the sort as I liked, I used to go and listen to all these speeches. That were one of us pastimes when it were coming general election you know, they were going for a fortnight afore the election meetings here, labour up at Weaver’s Club, Liberals in The Liberal Club, the Cosy. Conservatives up Albion Hall. You'd go flying from one to t’other and pass a good night on for nowt.
Any good speakers?
R- Yes. I can remember one and they had the Empire that particular night had the Labour party. It were George Lansbury. And I were allus glad wi’ [being there] There were just a few on us that were young uns. I suppose some of old uns an all. Half past five, dashed home, got your tea and queuing up at the Empire to get in and it were absolutely packed solid were the Empire. And there’d be four hundred seats and then they were stood up all ower. And I should think anybody that were a bit interested went to listen to George Lansbury ‘cause he were a real good man in them days weren’t he.
(550)
Mm.. How about Snowden, did he ever speak in Earby?
R- Yes. They once had a fella called Snowden put up for M.P. You'll mean Philip Snowden?
Yes.
R- Yes, he spoke in Earby.
Did you hear him?
R- Yes.
What were your impressions of Philip Snowden?
R- Good. And there were another fella called Sir Harry Verney he were a Liberal. And they nearly all got a big man down once and I can’t remember who the Conservative’s were but they had one of their top men coming and talking. But you'd to be very, very, quiet you know, there’d to be no noise, no rowdyisms. And them fellas, they'd no microphones in them days had they.
No.
R- And you could hear 'em at the back of the hall.
How about the mill owner’s politics in Earby? What do you think they were on the whole?
R- Mill owners, well they ware conservative and liberals. But what they call that Earby Manufacturing Company, Liberal lot were that. Similar to Nutters, I think they’d be liberals or sommat wouldn't they?
Yes they were, red hot.
R- Aye well, Earby Manufacturing were.
Did you ever come across any cases where there were repercussions from people voting, you know… How can I put it, not really victimisation, you know, but people getting into trouble because of their political views.
R- No I don’t think there were much of that in Earby. Course if you were, you could be like a big labour man and you'd more or less to keep your mouth shut to a certain extent, you didn’t want to lose your work, there were no flying off the deep end. And they weren’t all bad workers weren’t socialists.
(600)
No.
R- There were some on ‘em as good as any of others and I mean a boss couldn’t afford to lose 'em for the sake of a bit of a do at election time 'cause after that fortnight it were all forgot again.
That's it. Well I mean you were a socialist weren’t you? I mean you were a good worker.
R- Aye.
Narthen where did you meet your wife?
(35 mins)
R- Well you know how they used to do in them days, what they used to call, go on the rabbit run. We used to walk to Colne a lot of a night, four on us.
To Colne.
R- Four Lane Ends and back, if it were fine.
That's like Langroyd isn't it?
R- Aye. We never used to stop, just walk there, no calling in pubs or owt of that. Walk there, home, bed. Clogs on.
That were your night out.
R- Night out aye. And, well she lived on at Hague Houses.
Aye.
R- Well she come to live on there and of course like, ‘there's somebody come to live on there’ [gossip] sort of thing and you know, big does and little does we got talking and got courting. She had a cousin and one of lads that used to go went wi’ her cousin a bit and I went wi’ her and then they fell out, we stuck it. And that were it.
How long did you know each other before you were married7
R- Eighteen month happen. That's all.
Well that wouldn't really be a long courtship for them days would it?
R- No.
Were it fairly common for there to be long courtships Fred?
R- Some on ‘em. Aye, about half and half. I mean them that had a short uns generally had to get wed.
Aye that's it. Aye, well same thing goes on now, things are no different now.
R- No they’re no different.
And what was your wife's job when you got wed.
R- She were a weaver.
Where at?
(650)
R- Foulridge, eh I've forgotten name of them…Roberts's?
[J F and H Roberts, New Shed. According to Worrall’s for 1938 they had 673 looms there and some at Oxenhope.]
Aye it doesn’t matter.
R- Roberts's mill but things were bad. She lived at Hague Houses and used to have to walk in morning and walk home at dinner. Walk back again. Couldn't afford, well happen afford the bus if happen it were chucking it down. It were only a penny.
Aye. When you come to think you know, some difference in them days weren’t there to these.
R- And she lived with her grandmother, like her parents were dead and the grandmother come to live at Kelbrook. Well it were a case of walking from Kelbrook to work and walking back again at night.
Kelbrook to Foulridge.
R- Kelbrook to Foulridge aye.
A lot of people ud call that a days work now, just walking there and back.
R- Yes, aye. And she'll tell you the same, walked it there and then a packet of potato crisps for her dinner and a slice of bread and happen come home to a boiled egg, that were about all and a slice of bread. 'Cause there were only th’old woman and you only had a bit of an old age pension, that were nowt.
And when you got wed where did you live?
R - Up Beech Avenue a side of the station.
Aye. Rented house?
R- Yes.
How much were the rent Fred?
R- Thirteen shilling I think. It were a lot too much. It were one of theme does, the grandmother were going to flit, she were going somewhere else and this fella that belonged the house says you can have the house when the grandmother goes. So we started thinking about getting wed and we actually had banns in and the grand
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mother decided not to flit. We hadn't a house then and then there were this and we just took it for a put on until we could get sommat else.
Aye. How long were you there?
R- Oh twelve month happen.
And then where did you go?
R- I went from there up to Coolham aside of the reservoir. There were a farm aside of the reservoir and a cottage. I went into that cottage ‘cause me father had bought this land up here.
Yes.
R - Started his poultry farm up. Well I were handy for that, helping him there and then another cottage came to let a side of Well. And when I went home one night wife says I've seen Jim Cowgill and he says we can have that cottage a side of Well if we want it. So I says aye all reight. So we come down into that cottage and we were there for a long, long while, until the landlord wanted it back and he more or less made wife poorly, allus on to her about getting out. So I bought one on Longroyd then.
(40 mins)
Aye.
R - We weren’t on Longroyd long and then me mother started being badly and it got as me father couldn't manage to look after her so we came here. And then me mother died, we hadn't been here long when me mother died, and then me father died. Well I paid me brother out and we stopped here.
Aye. Narthen your cottage that you moved into, now I mean 1932, a year up yonder 1933, so in 1934 something like that you were at that cottage up at Coolham.
R - Mm..
(750)
When you moved in there, I mean, you and your missus would not be people of wealth. You'd be hard up.
R - Oh we were hard up aye.
Now how did you go on. Flag floors, what were it, two down two up were it cottage?
R - No one down and one up.
One down and one up right, flag floors.
R – Aye.
How do you go on about moving into a house when you've nowt?
R- Well we had us furniture like, we weren’t badly off for that.
Where had that come from?
R - Furniture?
Yes.
R- Oh we bought it new with a bit of money what I had in the bank.
Yes.
R- It all went within about five pound to fit the home up. There weren’t that much money. We went up there and it were on spring water, you emptied your own toilet and you emptied your own dustbins. I think it were four shilling a week all in. Well I were happy and the wife were happy an all and she weren’t working then. She’d finished work where she were. And she’d think nowt of walking down at night, down at Earby, go to pictures and walk back again at night. Aye. And she, I wouldn't like to think anybody else were doing it now these days, but there were no motor cars running up and down. There were no hooligans about. Sometimes I'd walk partly what down and meet her. Or sometimes me mother ud go with her and me mother ud go, you know, she lived half way up then did me mother.
So what did you have on floor like, flag floor down stairs.
R- Aye carpet square, oilcloth and a carpet square.
Oilcloth and a carpet square.
(800)
And..
R - Oilcloth and a carpet square upstairs. It were a good wood floor were that.
Yes
R - It had a new wood floor in upstairs and all new windows, it were a nice little cottage.
Aye.
R - But one day, we’d been off one Sunday and when we came back it had started snowing while we were away and we’d to shovel snow away to get in at the door. Piled half way up the cottage, cause it were just down a bit. And then at morning.
Big fire going when you got in eh?
R- Oh we’d a good fire going. As snug as a bug in a rug. Eh it were a warm little shop. And I mean, coal were cheap, although we were poor, I think you could afford coal better then than what you can now. 'Cause when you put a lump of coal on it lasted for an hour with them Silkstone hards [a good coal from Silkstone Colliery in Yorkshire.] and we’d no bother about groceries, they come like ‘Can we deliver groceries?” Wanting to deliver 'em for you. Same wi’ coal, same wi’ paraffin. We had a paraffin lamp, there were no gas or electric.
What were the paraffin lamp? Were it a wick or were it Aladdin?
R- It were Aladdin.
Mantle.
[Aladdin Lamps made three different sorts of paraffin lamp. One had a plain wick, a better sort had a wick and an upright mantle and then there were the pressure lamps, same type as Tilley and Vapalux]
R- There were just one snag about them, when they opened door you'd to watch 'em. If they got in a draught they blackened the mantle didn’t they.
That's it aye. They were a good light though weren’t they.
R- They were, oh they were, they were. Well I mean these now, a lot of these are only for fancy aren’t they.
Aye.
(850)
R - Oh they were real were them Aladdins.
Ave.
R- And then th’old candle to go to bed wi’.
Aye. And you had one lad didn't you.
R - Yes. Aye well..
Where were you living when wife had him?
R- Down here a side of Well.
Cottage down below.
R- 1942 down at cottage, during the war.
Aye, and did she have him at home?
R- No. Colne what do they call it, Christina Hartley's.
[Hartley Hospital at Laneshawbridge. Founded by the Colne family who made a fortune out of Jam making. Hartleys.]
Hartley’s. Yes.
R- At Colne.
How did she go? On the train? Or bus or…?
R - No. There were a fella up Stoneybank he had a car although you know, petrol were rationed. He says when she wants to go let me know and I'll take her.
Aye.
(45 mins)
R - So and when she wants to come back I’ll fetch her back and that were it. I think she were in a fortnight.
Aye. He were a gentleman.
R - And I used to go on the bus to get off at Four Lane Ends and then you used to wander down Longroyd and all way on it were a fair old trip.
Aye it is, it is out to Christina Hartley, it's nearly a mile from the middle of Colne.
R - Aye and then walk back to Longroyd.
Aye.
(900)
R – Oh many a time like it were nine o'clock when you got back home.
Aye, when you come to weigh up there were some time spent walking to get from one place to t’other.
R- There were. But I were lucky, it were fine all the time. Happen cold but it were fine. I never had a wet un.
What do you think is the biggest improvement you've seen since those days? When I say those days I mean, I’m thinking about when you and your wife got wed, say about 1930/35. What are the biggest Improvements you've seen since then Fred?
R- I wouldn't like to say.
Well any improvements, you know. I mean how have things improved since then, that’s a better question, how have things improved?
R- Well I think we are really better off for one thing now than what we were then. But I allus used to look at it this way and I still think it's the same, when you get wed at first you’re allus hard up and as you get older you've got all the stuff what you want in your house and then it comes to. You seem to have a bit of surplus money then for buying other things with. But I know we were years and years and years when we’d never owt to throw away. Although like we allus had a holiday or sommat like that. But a lot of this were done wi’ me going up and down and doing odd jobs and I'd happen do a job for a farmer and held give me a lump of bacon. Well that saved a bob or two. And I could allus get plenty of eggs at home, eggs cost nowt, I used to help me father a lot and then he’d a big garden and we never had any cabbages to buy or cauliflowers. And like new potatoes, plenty of new potatoes and peas. Well we were lucky that way but as I say I worked for 'em. Well it weren’t everybody that had chance of doing that. I used to do a bit for one farmer and I’ve allus thought he were poorer than me but occasionally he’d come down and he’d leave a pound of butter. Well, it all added up to us.
Aye It does, it does.
R - Yes.
(978)
SCG/03 May 2003
7,018 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/13
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 30th OF NOVEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Narthen what I'd like to talk about now Fred, we'll move away from marriage and domestic things and we'll go back to the mill but more specifically what I want to do is talk to you about the mills or the mill you were working in during the second world war.
R- Yes.
So first of all let's get round to Adolph Hitler, his plans for Europe. When did you first become aware that? That all was not as it should be on the Continent of Europe, you know, when did you start to become aware that things weren’t just..
R - Well I should think about 1938. I were working wi’ a fella what, he used to read a lot and he were a fair good talker and he got me thinking about what were going on. Hitler Youth Movement, Mussolini's Movements and I don't think it really came as a surprise when war were declared.
What sort of things were being said then?
R- Well, they were in a bad hole in Germany weren’t they and Italy, and he's booming 'em all up. He finds ‘em work and so much of their wage stopped every week for what they were going to call workers care. They were all going to get a motor car a piece and this fella, he says, “I can’t see that, it's going into armaments.” You know we used to think about it until, may be we thought that much about it while we come to believe it but I think we were on right track. Then of course when he [Chamberlain] went across and come back again. “Peace In our time.” He said "Don't believe it, don't believe it” did me mate. And then one Sunday it were declared weren’t it.
Aye. War. And what was your understanding Fred of what actually started world war II?
R- Well, he [Hitler] couldn't make a do in his own country, he’d taken all out what he could. So he were going to have to go somewhere else and get some stuff from somewhere else and he went into Czechoslovakia didn't he and Poland. Mussolini, he started it off didn’t he in, what were it, Ethiopia. He went there didn’t he. Haille Selassie. You just
(50)
couldn't think that he could carry on in his own country, a country what were down at bottom like they were. And their money were worth nowt and then they starts finding work for everybody and booming.
And so war were declared.
R - Aye ‘cause they'd nowt else, they wanted some money and things from other countries, that's how I put it.
What were the first, what were the first signs, apart from war being declared, what were first signs that we were actually at war? That you could notice locally.
R - Oh it didn’t come while well, were it 1940.
Aye it were September 1939 declaration.
R- There started being movements all ower didn't there like, soldiers moving about and these barrage balloons going up in London. I can remember going down to Aldershot, I think it ud be about 1940, to see a cousin what I had down there and all these balloons were up and all these air raid shelters in the gardens and all windows stuck up with Sellotape {Ordinary sticky backed paper tape actually. It was put on to minimise flying glass in case of bomb blast.]. There were just a bit of a do, we were out one day and a siren went. We all pushed into a dugout that there were, what did they call 'em, them shelters what they put up?
Anderson.
(5 mins)
R- Aye and then in a bit it went all clear. Nobody said they'd heard owt it must have been a false alarm or sommat,
Aye.
R- But all the railways were blacked out, all the streets were blacked out, motor cars were blacked out.
That were Earby an all?
R- Yes. Aye, it were, you had a flashlight you carried. It only had to be the size of an ha’penny or sommat had the light. You'd to have some tissue paper across and a piece of cardboard in.
Aye. How about rationing?
R- Oh and then food rationing came on. It were a heck of a job were that and we got landed in a bad hole as regards some of the rationing and that were coal. We always kept a good supply of coal in, I'd never have less than a ton I don't think, of coal in the coal place. It were a very big coal place and this is the cottage I'm talking about aside of Well.
(100)
And the toilet, outside toilet that it were, it comes to be made up. The tippler weren’t working. So I told the landlord and he sent for somebody and they says, “Oh, the flag for the tippler’s in your coal place. We can’t do owt about it till you get some coal used up.” Well, we’d got a good stock in for, you know, when winter were coming. He said “The only way is to get it down and then when you get down we can have a look.” So instead of us happen moving coal somewhere else we burnt it up. Then when we got down to a few hundredweight this rationing came on wi’ the coal job and we were floored to start with, and if we’d still have had like a ton in we weren’t stockpiling for the sake of the war, it were a thing we allus did. And when they come to lift this flag up, I were really surprised how far down this tippler were. And the fella put the flag back. He said “I'm having nowt to do with it.” And from that day onwards we used to have to go to the well, fetch two buckets of water and keep teeming it down the toilet to flush it. That were it, we never got any alteration to the toilet and it upset us with the coal job. But we were lucky with some of the other things. Me father used to buy a hundredweight of soap at once, 'cause he were very, very faddy with his hen huts. He got it off Preston Farmers and every so oft' he cleared a hut out and he used to scrub it all down with hot soapy water, all the lot, and then when it dried up he’d creosote inside. You could get some creosote then and it were nearly clear. [Creosote was one of the by-products at the gas works and you could always get it there.] And he used to do it with that. Well he used to use a lot of soap and just before soap rationing came in he’d got a hundredweight and it were the same with tea. He used to buy tea seven pound at once in a tin. Seven pound tin of tea at once. Well he’d got one of them in and big does and little does you know. We were still getting a little bit of rations, we were never without tea. And he used to get some rough flour, I don’t know why or what were to do with it and he used to mix it up. He mixed his own mash up and he used to put some of this flour in. Well it were good enough to bake with were this flour. So we were alreight, he used to keep this flour, he’d have a big bin full, two hundredweight of flour happen when it started and it were quite good enough to use as I say for baking.
(150) (10 mins)
Aye.
R - I don't know, when it were getting down to the bottom it were happen going off a bit then, but we were all right, bit of rations we could get.
So like with the hens and garden and…
R - Aye we didn't do so bad. But meat job, eh.. bit of meat what you could get. Sugar, that were a bad do, and then there were clothing coupons.
Aye.
R- And we were on overalls then, that North Valley Services [commercial contract clothing suppliers and launderers. Based at Colne on North Valley Road.] came and they wanted so many coupons. Well, we were better really giving them the coupons than what we were buying overalls and washing 'em and all that us selves 'cause although we weren't without soap, you used a lot of soap washing your overalls and there weren’t many coupons left then to buy any clothes. In fact I don’t think I got any new clothes during the war. Then the Home Guard came along and I went and joined the Home Guard. Well you got fit up then with a uniform and you'd go to Home Guard twice a week and on duty sometimes twice a week, well you allus wore their clothes then and shoes, you wore their shoes and when they wanted soling you got ‘em soled.
Everybody gets the idea nowadays like wi’ that television programme, Dad's Army, that the Home Guard were always a bit of a joke but it weren’t really were it?
R - No it weren’t a joke. In fact it were very hard work. We used to, I'm not saying that drill, we used to drill. But going up on to Pinhaw, we used to go up there be nine o'clock (Pinhaw) and we used to come off at six o'clock at morning. It were alreight saying like, four off and two on, but you never got no sleep and it were blooming cold and windy up there. And it were a fair walk from the hut what we had to a sentry box and you used to be in the sentry box for half an hour and then walk back again and back. There were allus somebody coming up to see that you were on duty but they came up in motor cars. It were a little old scratty hut what we were in. It had a stove, we didn't half give it some hammer with wood! There were plenty of wood and then somebody ud happen put a sod on the chimney at top, smother you. Allus a bit of fun. And one time you’d to, you had some ammunition but you’d to put a clip in but you hadn't to put one down the spout. [In the chamber of the rifle.] You'd to keep your fingers on the clip and push your bolt ower top.
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R- There were two fellas what had both been in the fourteen eighteen war and they’re going to go out and one says “Oh I don’t know whether I’ve put one down the spout or not.” Sergeant major, another fella what had been in the fourteen eighteen war, he says “Well pull the trigger and see.” And he pulled the trigger in this hut what we were in. It ricocheted all ower the place did this bullet and dust flew off the walls, it must have hit about all four walls. But just imagine, “Pull trigger and see.” Instead of opening the bolt. So that were another lucky experience what we had. Then another time we were going up to, we knew there’d been a bomb dropped up on Pinhaw but we didn't know where and you were going up and you'd only reight little lights on, hadn't motors you know.
(15 mins)
R- You couldn’t really see where you were going and eventually they came to this big hole in the road. They'd dropped one on the road. So we’d to get off there and we’d to walk it and then night after they had to go round Elslack to get to it, they couldn't get up here.
And what were there when you say you had a sentry box up there. what did you reckon to be doing up on Pinner? (Pinhaw)
R - Well you were watching for, on duty, on guard.
Aye.
R - With being on there. you know, you could see all over the place. Any motor cars what came on you'd to pull 'em up, anybody coming on. We just had a funny do, there were a motor car came and stopped under the wall. We guessed what it were. Anyway me mate and me went and they nearly had a fit when we popped a flashlight in. And what were they doing? Oh we've just come up to do a bit of courting. So me mate says “I'll tell you what to do, get back reight away afore anybody else comes up” And he says “Oh, thank you very much.” And off he went. I thought poor fella, if it had been one of t’other silly blokes what were wi’ us he’d have booked number and all the lot for coming up there.
(250)
Aye.
R - Probably he’d have getten in bother for wasting petrol coming up there and then it wouldn’t be his wife what he were with. Off he went, well that were the only incident we had. Bar some silly beggar took a .22 rifle up one night and he had a shot at a grouse or sommat. Well, still of night, this here little bit of a crack were heard down in Sutton I think. And someone must have said like there’d been a shot up on Pinhaw and wanted to know all the particulars what this shot were. Anyway he had to admit had this fella that he’d taken a .22 up and had a bang at a grouse. Well, that were very illegal weren’t it. Both ways. But we had some fun and yet there were many a time when you didn't feel like going when you'd had a hard day and it were nearly like being in the army. You were compelled, you were forced to go. If you didn’t go you were pulled up wanting all the why and wherefore. And there were some farmer’s lads, there were one farmer’s lad from this side of Lothersdale. It were nearer for him to come to Earby than go to Crosshills and he used to come on an old bike and it were absolutely swilling down one night and he didn't turn up and as I say, this sergeant major jumps on to him like a ton of bricks, why hadn't he come. Well he says it were raining. “Don’t you know there's a war on?” Well he says “I’ve been wet through once you know on the farm.” “Well wi’ being a farmer’s lad you’re exempt! There'll be lots of lads out there wet through!!” He gives him a dressing down like that. Give 'em a bit of authority, put ‘em a stripe or two on, and they were god almighty. But eventually we had these here tests and all that, if you passed these tests and then you were called up into the army you went on full pay reight away. Well, I went in and I passed all the exams I went in for. But map reading were my favourite. We had a mock battle one time.
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Crosshills attacking Earby and I had a friend, a farmer up there, and he come down. He says “Oh Fred, I've a bit of information to give thee.” He says “I can just tell thee the way Crosshill's lot’s coming.” He says “They’re coming to Bleara Side. They’re getting off at Bleara Side then they’re coming down by Copy House and down in to Harden Nick. I heard them talking.” Oh I said, that’s a good do. Aye, coming down into Kelbrook like. He says “I thought that's a good do I'll go and tell Fred.” So I saw the, oh what do you call him, the major. I says “I've a bit of information. I have an idea where Crosshills is coming on Sunday. I didn’t tell him this fella had told me. I says “I've mapped all the land out.” “Oh, ridiculous talk is that Fred, they'll never come that way, ridiculous talk they'll not come that way.
(20 mins)
So they have us all over the show. Well before you knew where you were we were all smothered, we were all surrounded wi’ Crosshills. And they just came exactly way that this fella told me. Well we were beat. And we had another mock battle at Colne, there were two of our lads, they got into police station at Colne, into Colne police station and held ‘em up at the back of the counter. And they got into, oh and the Town Hall had to be open an all and they got into the Town Hall at Colne. Aye, we got shot on Valley Road! [laughs]
Oh hard luck Fred. [Stanley laughs] So were you actually called up or were you deferred?
R- Deferred, I registered, I registered yes.
Yes. But why were you deferred, because of your occupation.
R- Occupation. Weaving, they were weaving government stuff you know for the war.
Were all the tacklers deferred?
R- Up to a certain age. I don't know what it were. Happen these young ones you know, what were just starting at about twenty or sommat like that, twenty one, they were called up. And I kept getting deferred every time. Every time it were coming to my age I got deferred again. It were because there were one set of looms stopped. They had to stop one set and he got a job down Wolverhampton but he didn't last long afore he were back, it were a rotten job that going down to Wolverhampton where they were getting bombed. So he came back up here and he were older than me but he’d had a bit of bother wi’ a woman and he wanted to get away fray her. But it weren’t long afore he come back and he got to come back to the mill. He went a working at Pickles's then at Barlick. They must have had one called up and they wanted one, so he got there and he were there while he retired.
What difference did war make in mill?
R- Well, we got full employment, more or less. All the weavers had a full complement of looms running. But it made a lot more work with these black out, you know we had to go round and pull these black outs to every night and open 'em every morning when it were coming daylight..
Now that's something I’ve always wondered about Fred. How the hell did they manage to black out a weaving shed?
R- Well they said it were fairly efficient. They had some big frames made and then they covered 'em wi’ that gas tar and brown paper. They had heald loops in and bands and they used to pull 'em and up to the windows. And so I think they blacked some of the windows just round the edges.
Yes that's it.
R - Aye they said it were a fair good black out.
Warehouse and all?
R- Well warehouse windows, they had none on top at Birley’s. 'Cause the tapes were up above. The windows were just down the side.
(400)
R- And the big windows up stairs in the tape room, I think them were painted. Blacked out, properly blacked out. And they just had side lights coming in. They’d be about eight foot by six foot would them windows on top of the second storey. Aye, one particular morning, there were such a crash a side of my bench and two weavers what worked there, [Fred laughs] they let out such a scream and I'd the wind up an all, I thought there's a bomb dropped! But nothing came through and when it came day light it were one of these windows what had shattered. It must have come loose, rotted away and come down. It slid down the top and dropped on to the mill roof.
(25 mins)
Aye.
R- And it dropped, must have dropped straight into the valley gutter and then fell ower and leaned against the slates, it didn't lean again the windows. So what a relief it were when it came daylight and we saw what it were. But I thought how lucky these two weavers and me were, we being reight underneath it. And if you’re ever going, we'll say from the fire station way towards Birley's mill, if you look up you'll catch, you’ll see these windows, and you can just imagine how it came down.
What were the hours during the war? Were they the same as they were before the war?
R- Same hours.
What hours were you working?
R- Were it seven till half past five? I’ve forgotten. I don’t know whether it were seven till half past five or not. They might have been reduced, I know we started at seven.
And what, half past eight till nine breakfast?
R- Yes.
And then twelve till one dinner.
R- Twelve till one dinner and I think it were five o'clock when we finished. It had been reduced. It used to be half past five.
And they were still on about, like just before the war there were starting to be agitation to do away wi’ kissing shuttles weren’t there.
R- Yes.
It got to the stage just before the war where they were almost ready for passing legislation weren’t they.
R- Yes.
(450)
Now do you know of any firm that started with self threading shuttles before the war?
R- No.
And so when did that come in at the finish, can you remember?
R- Well it ud be about 1952 before I'd owt to do with them. Self threading shuttles, that were when I went to Johnsons, they were just starting then. At Johnsons putting ‘em on.
And Johnsons would be one of first to start wouldn't they?
R- Yes, and then all new shuttle guards. We’d all new shuttle guards to put on. That ud be, that were during the war.
Aye. How about during the war, did it make any difference to weavers wi’ men going to war. In other words were there a fair number of men weaving before the war?
R- No, but there were fellas sweeping then you know. A lot of fellas, they didn't want weaving. And in some sheds there’d be eight sweepers, they were all men. Let's see, I’d one worked for me and he got called up and then I got another and he got called up and me brother got called up. I think there were five sweepers got called up. But they replaced 'em wi’ elderly fellas and fellas what, you know, happen fancied sweeping to weaving. They got enough sweepers to carry on with.
Have you ever seen a woman sweeping?
R- Aye well only when they used to sweep their own.
No, I mean as a sweeper.
R- Never, no not to take a set on. Although like it’s possible they could have done.
Yes, I've never heard of one.
R- No.
I’ve never heard of a woman sweeping.
R- Specially now when they can wear overalls and that carry on.
[Very obliquely, Fred is flagging up an important factor here. It wasn’t until the war that women would wear trousers or overalls and the ‘modesty factor’ could have come into this question as loomsweeping involves getting into very contorted positions or lying on the floor.]
Aye.. and what difference did it make in the weaving shed? Did it make any difference at all with it being the war?
R- Well, they used to have fellas coming round testing the cloth.
(500)
To see that it were fully up to standard. And I know one particular weave we used to have, if I remember reight they had about a 56 pick, and this fella came round and it had to go up to 58 and then they were weaving a lot of hundred yarder's and they'd be coming out at a hundred and three and hundred and four yards. Well he made 'em check all of them, and all them bits had to be added on and then at the end of the war the weaver had to be paid for 'em. They gained that way did weavers with having the inspector coming round.
Aye. How about tramp weavers would they disappear at the beginning of the war or how?
(30 mins)
R- I didn't see any. You know the models were going and gone and there weren’t models for them were there.
No. How about people waiting in the warehouse for work in a morning.
R - Oh that disappeared with the war.
So was there actually a shortage of weavers during the war?
R- There were, there were weavers got to work what wouldn’t have been entertained before. And I dare say they had to have a full compliment to get the government subsidy and government orders and all that.
Aye. Did the fact that they were getting short, I mean really when you come to think about it that were the first time since about 1800 they'd ever been short of weavers.
Would you say that were a bit of a shock for management, you know. Did it make any difference to their attitude towards the weavers? What I'm thinking about Fred is things like how hard they used to be on waste and cop bottoms in the old days. Things like that and time keeping and keeping people up to the mark and what not. I mean did they start, did things relax at all?
R - Oh they went easier, as you say they relaxed. They weren’t as keen. 'Cause there were one or two fellas and happen women there and they couldn't sack you during the
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war. There were a clause, they couldn't sack you unless it were sommat very, very serious and you couldn't give over. And I know the manager said of one of the tacklers, as soon as I can I’ll have shut of him but when the time came he didn’t get chance to get shut of him, he chucked up his self and went somewhere else. And I will say same, I did the same, as soon as that clause came off I left, I left an all and I went to another place. I'd had enough.
Why were that?
R- Well, before the war we had a few years hell on earth and then it did ease a little bit during the war but I thought…
Now I’ll just have to stop you a minute. When you say you had a few years when it were hell on earth, what do you mean be that Fred and when were that?
R- Well, 1932's up to 38.
Aye. You mean like hard times, you know.
R – Yes. There were never owt reight. Everything were wrong and it were allus you what were to blame and didn't matter, you hadn't to talk back. If they saw two tacklers talking. You'd to stand a side of your bench [in the shed],you hadn’t to go to the next bench and talk to your mate. The only time that you really could do were when you went out at breakfast time. You had about half an hour you know. You'd get your breakfast and you'd go out for a quarter of an hour. At dinner times that were about the only time you could talk or he’d [boss tackler or weaving manager]be after you wanting to know.
Yes, so what we're actually talking about now is the times like during depression that there were in Earby like 32/38 sommat like that when the gaffers actually had the whip hand. They knew very well that they could make you do just what they wanted because there were no work if you were out.
R- That's it.
And if they were being hard on you, the tacklers, they’d be being hard on weavers and all, I know.
R - Yes.
In what ways did they, what ways were they hard on the weavers?
(35 mins)
R - Well one way were if a weaver happen made a bad starting place, they'd be brought up into the warehouse and the manager ud say have you had the tackler, and they'd say yes and he hadn’t altered it. Actually it were nothing to do with the tackler, it were happen the weaver and there might only be two in hundred yards. And then they'd fetch you up, that weaver’s had you up for bad starting places. Why haven't you altered it? You know, that carry on. You were allus in the muck and the way he used to talk when this come on, you know. he'll go, she'll go. [after the war] I thought yes, he's going to be back at th’old do. I thought I mun be away from here afore he gets on to that again. So I disappeared and so did a lot more what he’d been on to. They got a bit of a shock did some of them type of managers what were going to go back to the old system after the war, ‘cause it never came about. There were one at Johnsons, I've heard about him. He used to say “Wait while the war's finished, I’ll have about twenty weavers stood in warehouse, I’ll alter this carry on!” He never got to do it ‘cause it never happened. You could see what they were, bullies, they were nowt else.
And when you got a chance to move from Birley’s where did you go to Fred?
R- I went to that New Bridge, little silk place, under the mill. It came from Barrowford I think.
Aye, and where were they weaving.
R – In, under what they call Big Mill.
That's it aye.
R- A side of the engine house, where you went into the engine house.
That's it, yes aye.
(650)
R- Just a little shop. What had they, about two hundred looms.
Aye, what were they like?
R - It were all silk and man-made fibres.
Yes.
R - That were the first time, you know, that I could really say I had a full wage. 'Cause during the war they were full up but when somebody came home on leave, their wife, naturally they were off their work a week wi’ em. And there were no weavers to put on. Well them looms were stopped, well you’d nothing to draw off them. Mind you, you hadn't to bother.
What year were it you shifted to New Bridge.
R- 1948.
Aye, so that were after the war.
R - After the war.
So you had to do all the war at Birley’s?.
R - Yes aye.
I’ve got to be very careful with this question Fred because I don't want to put answers in your head. Was there any difference, you saw weaving before the war, you worked right through the war and you saw it after. Would you say that there were any difference in the attitude of people in the industry due to war when the war finished.
R- When the war finished?
Yes.
R- Aye. They got as we say slip shod, they didn't care a hang, 'cause they could see there were nobody coming into the trade. Rolls Royce were at Barlick. Rover were at Sough and they were going into these other industries and they were taking advantage then were workers in the mill.
Aye. I'll just have to feed you a little bit here because it's something that I don't think even now a lot of people round here don't realise. I just want to know whether you think it’s true. It seems to me that in some ways it were one of best things that ever happened to weavers were the 39/45 war. But in other ways it were the worst thing.
(700)
R- Yes.
Because I mean actually I think that was when things started to crack because you know looms weren’t kept running as they should be and all rest of it. I mean, we know it were hard in the old days but I mean it did mean that folk were making a profit and they could afford to employ people. But it seems to me that the worst thing that ever happened to the manufacturers round here was the war in so far as for the
first time in living memory they were short of weavers. And the second thing was that up to then there’d been nothing else for weavers to do, but as soon as they brought such as the Rover Company into Sough, into Sough Bridge and Rover into Barlick, which eventually turned into Rolls and all the rest of it. They introduced different systems into the area which to anybody that was used to weaving, just seemed like heaven. Because I am right in saying aren’t I, even up to after the
end of the war it was still possible to work a week and get nowt for it.
R- Yes.
In the weaving industry if you'd had a bad week and got no pieces off.
R - That's it.
And yet they were guaranteed a wage if they were working at Rover.
R- Yes.
If they had a bad week there they got same wage as if they'd had a good week.
R- Aye.
(750)
(40 mins)
So once you introduce something like that into a system, into a local economy like Earby, would you say that that was one of the big things that really knocked these manufacturers on the head.
R- Well, they had to give 'em a bit of a fall back had the weaving industry hadn't they. A weaver got a little bit of a fall back, might be only a pound when it started, and then it gradually built up.
When you say a fall back, what were that, like a guaranteed minimum wage?
R - That's it aye. They definitely had a pound on their wage other than their picks. And then that built up, I think as you were saying then, others had a guaranteed wage, well they had to start giving the cotton workers a little bit, and they kept adding on and adding on until they've getten nearly half a wage now haven't they I think in the cotton industry.
Aye well I think it's twenty six quid now isn't it.
R- Aye well it can be above half a wage can’t it.
Aye.
R- Aye and that's all come with the other industries I think. I don't think they'd ever have got it but for the other industries.
No, when you come to think about it, I wonder how many industries there were in 1945/1946 in the country where it was possible to work a week and get nothing. Work a week and get nothing for it.
R- No. I’d a cousin down at Leighton Buzzard and he were manager of a laundry and the fella next door he’d allus had a good job and he worked for Bryant and May matches.
And when I went down he says, “I’m glad you’ve come. Mr So and so will not believe me when I tell him the wages that there were in the cotton industry in Lancashire. When I've told him about weavers going home with twenty nine shillings he’s laughed at me and said it was impossible.”
(800)
And I said “Well, it is so.” And so I were introduced to this fella and he were a grand fella, I says “I’ll tell you what I’ll do, I’ll get some wages slips and send them down to you.” Hew said, “Don’t bother, I can believe you now when Mr Riddiough told me and you’ve told me. I believe you. I've heard about bad times in cotton but I never thought it were like that.”
There’s plenty of people at this moment, right now, they don't believe me when I tell them that even on a good week they can’t come out with a pound an hour out of that shed. And they don’t believe me. I mean people just won’t have it nowadays.
R- No they don't understand it at all do they.
No, and you know I get on me hobby horse about the job, because you know very well, I mean this last two months I mean, we've had the most stupid people coming round and talking about preserving Bancroft and its workers for posterity and all the rest of it. I ask ‘em all the same question Fred, “Would you come and work here?”
R- Aye.
They wouldn't come and work under the conditions that those lasses have to work in. I’m not talking about meself. I mean my wages. I’m responsible for all the mill and my wage is about, it's only just over a pound an hour.
R - Aye.
I mean, it's just ridiculous, they wouldn't come and work under the conditions that them lasses are working under.
(850)
R- No they wouldn’t, no not to preserve it.
And yet they want it preserving.
R - Aye it’s stupid isn't it.
I mean something like that it shouldn't be preserved, it doesn’t deserve to be preserved. Record it like we’re doing, take the photographs and then scrap it and chuck it out.
R- Aye.
And forget it because if they can’t afford to pay the workers a wage there's no place for it in this day and age.
R- No well, when I were telling this Horace Thornton about you and he says “What are they barn to do about the engine?” I said “Scrap it I suppose.” He said “Well, they want to do.” He says it’s no use preserving that and letting the weavers go is it?
No. He’s right.
R- No, stupid.
(45 mins)
Actually I don't think the engine is going to get scrapped. There's a firm from Rochdale who have put a bid in for the mill and its been accepted. It's just a question or it getting signed up. He came the other day in a helicopter, landed behind the mill to come and have a look.
[This was Malcolm Dunphy of Dunphy Burners a Rochdale firm. He was seriously thinking about buying the place but it fell through. Funnily enough I worked with him ten years later when I was doing the Ellenroad engine and we didn’t miss much!]
A – Yes, he said that a bloke had come in a helicopter.
Aye it's this fella and they're going to keep the engine in and make electricity with it because what they're doing, they’re manufacturing oil burners and gas burners and one of the things they’re doing all day is testing burners on boilers. Well they're making steam you see. And he says what they're doing now, I mean, all that steam’s wasted where they are now. But he says not here, he said we'll put it in an accumulator he says and run the engine off it and get us electricity off it.
R- Electricity. Aye well you’ve said that once before didn’t you, you could run a firm with electric.
Well that's what I told 'em. I told him when he come. I said that alternator’s big enough for what you're doing now, 120 Kva. I said, if it isn't, put another bugger in, there's plenty of room in the warehouse.
R – Aye.
You could put a 600 Kva in if you want. Give the engine some stick. I said you could make enough electric for half of Barlick with that engine. Anyway things are looking up. To-day, we had a telephone call today, Ernie [clothlooker]shouts me up to the office, telephone call for you. Went up, there's a fella on, “I understand” oh his name’s Lamberton. “My name is Lamberton and I understand from reading the Model Engineer that you have a steam engine for sale.” I said oh aye. He said “How big is it?” I said “Well, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. For a start off, unless you’re a very wealthy man, it's too big for you. Secondly, it isn't for sale.” He said “How big is it?” I said “Well, it's a big mill engine. It’s six hundred horse, but you can get more than that out of it. Let's put it this way, the flywheel weighs thirty five ton.” “Good God!” he says. [Stanley and Fred laugh.]
R- Did he think it were a model!
He says “Well, it was it says in the Model Engineer that it's for sale.” I said “Well, the Model Engineer isn't the Bible you know. And even the Bible's wrong in some places!” I said “We're just about fed up of people printing this without coming and asking. The engine isn't for sale.”
(950)
R- No.
I said it's been up for tenders for scrapping for a long while but in point of fact it looks as if it might be used. I said we're going out of business but another firm’s taking the mill over and it looks as if they might use it.
R- Aye.
I said “But as for buying the engine, I think you ought to have second thoughts really!” [both laugh]
R- Aye he’d think it were a model eh.
He says “My Goodness! It’s enormous!” I says is it heck, it’s only a little un. Which it is. That's the thing they can’t understand. I mean Mons were two cylinders and it were three thousand horse!
R- Aye.
Not six hundred, five times size of that, the fly wheel were thirty odd foot across. I don't mean the diameter of it. I mean the width of it.
R- Aye.
I've forgotten how many grooves there were in that fly wheel.
R- But they're a grand drive aren’t they.
Oh aye, rope drive. Anyway let's not start talking about engines. We'll leave that for another tape. We're nearly at the end here, we’ll sign off for to-night Fred.
R- Aye.
SCG/04 May 2003
7,107 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/14
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 7th OF DECEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Right Fred this week I want to talk to you about conditions in the industry after the war. Now in 1947 you went to work for Newbridge Manufacturing Co. didn't you?
R - That's it yes.
And how long did you stop there Fred?
R- It were 1952, five year, nearly five year.
Aye till 1952. And what was trade like while you were there with them?
R- Oh they couldn't make enough cloth, couldn’t make enough. None of the cotton mills were making enough and they couldn't get enough weavers, they had looms stopped. Tacklers were bad to get. In fact when I were at New Bridge we were never what you could call full up wi’ tacklers. There were allus one giving up and going to a better place for more money. They were bribed were a lot on 'em to move away from where they were. But as I telled you before, I didn’t move because of work or owt like that, it were 'cause I had just got an inkling that it were just coming to an end were this bit of a boom. So I thought well, they'll be one to shut up, they were merchants and I think they only started these looms up to get more cloth. Because they couldn't get cloth off other people. But they also had a little mill at Kearsley, I think that shut up as well after they closed down in Earby. They were in it for what they could get just at time. But I never bothered, you know I were happy and I learnt a lot wi’ going there, it stood me in good stead. But I didn't leave the other place for money, I left because of the conditions we were working under before the war and I thought conditions might come back the same way, and I didn't want to be stuck there another twenty odd year.
In point of fact, talking about Birley's now, I know you weren’t working there, but you’ll have a fair idea of what were going on. Did conditions ever get back to what they were before the war?
R- No.
In what way did they vary Fred?
R - Well they just hadn’t enough workers to, you know, to frighten people with.
Yes. In other words they hadn't got weavers stood in the warehouse.
R- No.
Aye.
R - And they knew if they stopped a tackler they couldn't get another, that were another thing.
So what effect did that have on the way they treated the weavers Fred, I mean you know..
(50)
R- Well. It started declining cotton didn't it wi’ weavers getting their own way and workers going a bit too much that way. I think so, I think they went too far. And that started another slump didn’t it. Contracting looms and paying manufacturers to get out and that sort of thing round about that time.
When did that start Fred?
R - It ud be round about 1952.
I'm going to ask you about weavers conditions, I'm not talking so much about whether they swept their own looms or whether cloth were carried for 'em or this that and the other but do you think the weavers were looked after any better after the war?
R- Yes to try and keep 'em there.
In what ways were they looked after better?
R- Well they started carrying rollers in for 'em and there were some places where they'd have three shuttles to a loom, not two, and they'd have a worker going round, what they called a ‘weaver’s help’ and when this weaver changed a shuttle wi’ the weft done, they put that shuttle up and someone came round and filled it for her, put another pirn on. They didn't do what you might call any shuttling.
(5 mins)
Aye.
R- That were a scheme what were tried to try and help weavers and get weavers to come and work for you. Then they started having their bits of bonuses. And they weren’t as strict on weavers. If a weaver says can I have half a day off, 'Oh yes, yes, you'll he back to-morrow?’ Not like it used to be. Oh weavers definitely had it easier 'cause they weren’t on their back all time and tacklers, they started getting standing wages and then they weren’t flogging the weavers the same.
I’ve often heard Jim say that. I know that it's very nearly the same as a weavers help, but I’ve often heard him say that a trap hand is a good thing Have you ever worked at a mill where they've had trap hands?
R- Yes, yes.
What were a trap hand?
R- If a weaver had a nasty mess they used to go and take it up for 'em. Especially they had to have 'em where they were weaving these silks and artificials. I've seen messes there and they couldn't take the warp out to re-loom it or owt like that 'cause ends is all, you know, what they call leased, one on one. And I've seen a trap hand, he’d be four hours straightening a trap out to make sure that he got every end just perfect. Because wi’ them class of goods if you had an end crossed or a few ends crossed they wouldn’t weave. I've seen messes they've had and it's taken ‘em eight hours to take one up.
(100)
How many ends were there in one of them warps?
R- Oh well, I mean, they could have been taking a thousand ends up you know.
Aye.
R- Straightening a thousand out and taking a thousand up. And then they started at cotton places, having trap hands there. If a weaver had a bit of a mess they went and put their number down and when the trap hand got straight he used to go and look. But that were another thing what went wrong, weavers then took advantage of the trap hands.
In what way Fred?
R- They were putting numbers down for little bits of messes, just a few ends, what they could have taken up themselves. And when they had these messes they put their number down and they might put smash eleven o'clock. Well they wouldn't touch that smash and then the trap hand came and he’d to start and do it. But at week-end when they were going round and making the wages up they'd say four hours, smash four hours, whereas if they'd just straightened a bit out it ud happen only have been two and half hours. They took advantage of that.
So they'd draw stopped time for a smash.
R - They drew stopped time for smashes.
How about training Fred after the war. If they were short of weavers the obvious thing would seem to be to train more weavers.
R- Yes, they tried all sorts of methods but 1 don’t know what appertained in these big mills in Nelson and that sort. They had a training room and you know, looms, but I don't know whether they were a success. I've never heard of any being a success. I think the best way were when you were young and you went and were taught wi’ one weaver what were a good weaver. And in them days tacklers knew who their good weavers were and whether they were suitable. Well in some of these other mills the tackler had nothing to do with the weavers. Managers, they didn't allus know who were the best weaver for teaching. You could get a good weaver but they couldn't pass knowledge on. And then you've got to have a good learner haven't you. If he were interested or she were interested to pick it up. I've known weavers come, young uns from school and you'll think, oh they'll never make owt and they've been interested and made real tip top weavers. In fact I can remember one young girl coming to New Bridge,
(150) (10 mins)
she’d been to grammar school, she'd been to that secretarial college at Burnley, [Alston’s Business Collage, 4 Colne Road, Burnley.] She'd worked in offices and then there were that more much money in weaving so she came to learn to weave and I’ll say within three month she were as good a weaver as any that went into a mill. 'Cause she enjoyed it and she enjoyed the money. Where she might have been earning six pound, she'd come into the mill and she were earning ten. Well that were a big jump weren’t it. They were definitely earning good money in that New Bridge.
So in about 1947 to 50 when the place were full up they could earn ten quid at New Bridge.
R- Oh yes, good weavers yes. Them what came to weave. They got paid for every yard they wove them places. They were measured were all the pieces and sometimes your warp, you know, we'll say it had on the ticket five thousand yards, happen at five thousand. A thousand yards we'll put, they might have a thousand and two hundred on. Well in olden days they wouldn't have been paid for that but they paid 'em to make sure that they could keep their weavers later on. Well, before then they were fleecing weavers wi’ the length of the cloth.
What, you mean the pieces were actually longer than hundred yards?
R- Yes. They were getting paid for a hundred yards and they were weaving a hundred and three and hundred and four yards. But when it came in that they had to put these meters on.
True Meters. [On the plaiting machines in the warehouse.]
R- True Meters and measure all the lengths. And when a weaver downed a warp, all these extra lengths were added on and they might have thirty yards to add on, which it boosted their pay up for that week then.
Aye, well that's a third of a piece isn't it. And you say they were fleecing the weavers on their lengths. It seems a very hard attitude to have towards your workers. Would you say that that sort of attitude were fairly common?
R- Oh yes, aye. Aye, the cotton trade, even when it were booming, I think they'd rob 'em. They just run 'em ower the plaiting machine didn't they and they counted 'em, but as far as you knew they were only 90, 100, 150 yards. You took it what it had on your card. Well in dry weather you didn't get the same length off as what you did in wet weather.
Aye because of the warp taking up.
R- Stretch aye. They used to be coming round, “Get some more weight on!” you know and accusing weavers of taking weight off. And that, I don't think they were ever, when they told 'em to put more weight on, I don't think they'd ever be under 100 yards. But they wouldn't be that yard over do you see.
Yes. So like wi’ putting more weight on the back it were putting more strain on the warp and stretching it. And getting more length out of each piece.
R - That's it and making it weave worse an all. 'Cause there were a happy medium as regards weighting.
Yes.
(15 mins)
R - And then when they come and they put these humidifiers in, well they just shot up. Well we'll say from hundred to hundred and three, hundred and six yards, wi’ humidifiers in.
Aye. So really..
R - Really they should have altered their tape length, you know. Altered the marks but they didn't.
So in other words if you were a manufacturer and you put a humidifier system in, one of the things that was on your mind was the fact that that could mean that you were getting more cloth. You were getting more stretch on your warp, so you were getting more cloth out of them looms.
R – Yes.
Well that's a bit of an eye opener for me Fred. I've never known, there you are, you see we've come to the right fella here! But I always thought that humidifiers were put in to make the cloth, you know make it weave better.
R - Well yes it were that dampness. And it just give 'em that bit of a stretch. It stretched two yards in a hundred easy wi’ humidifiers in.
Aye. So like if you had humidifiers in and plenty of weight on the back you were..
R- Oh they could get any length they wanted nearly. And that's the sort of thing. I’ve said before, a place wi’ happen six hundred loom all on one kind paying weavers for hundred yards and they were coming wi’ hundred and fours. Well they were getting some pieces for nowt you know.
Yes. Were there any other ways it were possible for the manufacturer to, well to rob the weaver, apart from what we were talking about?
R- No, I think that were biggest thing what they did.
Tell me something Fred, have you ever come across a firm using bastard reeds?
R- No but I've heard about 'em. That were another weren’t it. They were robbing them what were buying the cloth then weren’t they?
Yes well I've already gone into the bastard reed job.
(250
Funnily enough I were talking to somebody the other day and he was talking about a manufacturer who said to him, he said “We run on the bastard reed system here.”
R- It were fairly common in Burnley I think were bastard reeds.
Well this were over Burnley way. In fact I'm not sure if it weren’t Queen Street at Harle Syke.
R- Yes it could be.
I should have thought that it was a very dangerous thing to do nowadays, because I mean surely it’ll come under things like the Fair Trading Act you know.
R- Yes aye, I don't think they'll do it now like they did then. Still that cloth were going abroad weren’t it. Once it got abroad it never come back. There is another thing as regards bastard reeds, not to do with robbing anybody but if you're weaving some fairly heavy stuff, strong stuff and your reeds are fairly fine. Well when you get to your selvedge, the reed might be, you know, instead of being a seventy reed they might put about a sixty six or sixty seven in the selvedge. Just to make it that little bit stronger to stand nipping up a bit. But they had to be spot on you know and they were just for selvedges were them reeds.
Those wouldn't be them bastard reeds with about six inch [variation] at either side.
R- No. They’d just have the odd inch like. At the edges.
For the width aye.
R- For better weaving were that. But you know same as them bastard reeds at sides when they had four or five inches. Your cloth allus nipped in a bit didn't it. And you wouldn’t be able to just pick that out at a rough looking at it. Although they were saying all them thousands of yards of thread weren’t they.
Yes, aye. Anyway, you’re working at New Bridge and as you say you left then because you got an idea that things were coming bad again. But tell me, what actually finished New Bridge?
R- I think it were when there were plenty of cloth. The markets were saturated and so they just closed down, they could buy it, probably cheaper than what they could make it then.
So they didn't wait till the contraction job and get paid for their looms?..
(300)
R- No. No they were out reight away nearly.
Aye. So they really slipped up in a way then there.
R - In a way yes.
Aye. So you moved to Johnsons. Now Johnsons then was the same firm that it is now I assume, Johnsons and Johnson’s.
R- Yes.
And they’d be weaving, what would they be weaving then?
R- Mostly gauze and bandage cloth.
Yes, for their own products, for Johnson & Johnson's products. Things like Elastoplasts, things like that.
R- Band Aids, [laughs]
Band Aids aye. Oh aye, Elastoplasts were...
R - Smith & Nephews.
Smith and Nephew, that's it, aye. It were Band Aid weren’t it, Johnson and Johnson’s.
R- But it were still in the old way even when I went.
What do you mean by the old way?
R - Looms all crammed together.
(20 mins)
R- No space. No spacing out.
Hadn't they spaced out?
R - No. Oh no.
When did most of ‘em space out?
R- Oh about 19--. Just after war,
Yes.
R- Happen about 1946/1947. 'Cause they'd spaced out as well as they could at Birley's when I left in forty seven. But actually spacing out in an old mill took a bit of doing. Alleys were either too wide, back alleys were too wide and your belts were too long, when they took an alley out. [the shafting wasn’t moved, only the looms] And in one way it worsened conditions as regards working. Even now I can remember when they spaced out I were a long while before I could get into the rhythm. When they got these wide alleys, weavers alleys, it were alright for passing [each other] but instead of setting a loom on here and just turning round to the next one you'd to take a step to set the other looms on and they were a long while of getting used to it were the weavers. In fact it made it hard work for ‘em, they were doing a lot more walking about. You used to get into that habit, you knew just the exact width of your alley and you could just turn round at one and be at your looms.
Yes. Now Johnsons, when you went there, that was the first place
(350)
you ever saw self threading shuttles wasn't it.
R- Yes they started on there. Aye that were one thing they modernised wi’ the shuttles and all new shuttle guards, and all these cloth roller motions for taking rollers out easy. But otherwise they still [worked on the old spacing] Two on you having to lift warps in and out. You couldn't push ‘em down some of alleys, you had 'em to lift all the time.
What did you think of the self threading shuttles when they first come in?
R- Well they were definitely better as regards health I think but you'd a lot more bother with weft breakages and it put a lot of expense on 'cause you were having to put fur in the shuttles and put drag in and that sort of thing to make 'em weave.
Yes. Didn't you put fur in kissing shuttles?
R- Very seldom. ‘Cause they were a different shape altogether were the old kissing shuttles.
Yes. What was the weavers attitude to self threading shuttles?
R- Oh they liked 'em. And if they didn't weave, well it were the tackler that couldn't make a do, that were it. But they were in their infancy for quite a while were self threading shuttles. As regards these eyes what they put in. They were putting the eye in and some were coming loose, some were breaking. They tried all different sorts, a lot of different sorts. I think they have more or less got on to it now but these wire eye's what they have, they've got to be spot on or they don't thread properly.
And then the weaver’s fetching 'em to you. Weft breaking and they haven't been threaded. But it used to be [with kissing shuttles]when you were having a lot of weft troubles, which you used to do, and you were getting these shuttles off weavers. Some of these fancy women wi’ all lipstick. All their shuttles were covered with lipstick. And I think that were one reason why a lot of tacklers, they didn't really chew twist but they allus had a little bit in their mouths as what as you might say, for a disinfectant. And some on 'em they were caked up wi’ lipstick and it got then well you got some sandpaper and you given ‘em a good cleaning up 'cause you’d to kiss the shuttle to thread it.
(400)
You'd to take it back to the looms you know and you might have to kiss 'em two or three times to get ‘em going ‘cause the weft were breaking. They said that there were more false teeth in Lancashire weren’t there and more empty mouths than any other county in England.
Is that right?
R - And they said it were, they blamed it on to kissing shuttles and I mean round here we didn't know much about it ‘cause we were only kissing ordinary weft weren’t we. But you got to a fancy place they were kissing dyed weft or red weft, black weft and it weren’t all clean weren’t weft what they were kissing.
No.
R- And they were allus getting a mouth full of it.
Aye. Aye when you think of the number of times that you could thread a shuttle in a day.
R- Aye 'cause they were little shuttles then, little cops.
When they went on to the self threading shuttles Fred, did they go on to a larger yarn package at the same time?
R- They went on to a larger package. Just a bit longer, before they went on to self threading shuttles when they went on to this six loom system. And I’ll allus remember this at Birley's, this were before the war like. More looms.
(25 mins)
It were when we were on us own, just three tacklers there. At Friday night as the holidays were starting for July, we’d to collect all us shuttles up and we’d tied 'em all together and numbered 'em all. Them what weren’t numbered, which were very few, we allus numbered 'em. We tied 'em all up together in pairs and put 'em in us weft box and during the holidays they were going away to the shuttle makers to just bore a little bit more out at the eye end so's they could get a shuttle peg half an inch longer. Well, when we went back to us work at Monday morning after the holidays, there's this here box come back, every shuttle’s loose and then we’d to start going through 'em all. Finding us own shuttles. What would there be, there’d be going up for four hundred shuttles.
[What Fred is describing here is modifying the shuttles to take a longer yarn package. This was an essential part of making More Looms work but Birley’s were taking the cheap way out evidently, not altering the boxes and slays for longer shuttles but modifying the old ones.]
(450)
We had 'em all to sort and then we had to put pegs in, change all the pegs and some of the shuttles, they weren’t long enough for your peg to go in so you’d to cut about a quarter of an inch off your peg and round it off. And what you did, you did one shuttle [per loom]for each weaver. Well it ud be getting on for ten o'clock at morning before all your weavers had got a shuttle. And that were the conditions you were working under then and as I say they weren’t long enough weren’t them shuttles for these longer cops and longer pegs and you'd give a weaver a shuttle and then she'd be fetching it back, it won’t weave. Well they hadn't another shuttle to go in. We were a full day, well I'm saying a full day, above a day getting all the shuttles to the weavers. And nothing for it and the time the weavers were losing, they were losing on their pay, we were losing on pay as well.
Yes, because that were before the days of the standing wage.
R- That's it aye. That were how they treated you in them days. That were after we’d stopped in, I think we stopped at half past five and we stopped in fastening all them shuttles up. [before the holidays] So we didn't get paid for doing it but we thought well we'll have ‘em all spot on when they come back and then naturally he’d [the manufacturer] said oh chuck ‘em in anywhere, it's reight, chuck 'em in, they'll have ‘em to sort out. Then there were another case, it were some selvedge bobbins what they put on. They'd had some bother about some of selvedge ends going into the warp ends when the taper were taping. Well that were nowt to do wi’ the tacklers and nowt to do wi’ the weaver. So what they did, they got some selvedge bobbins and the beamer, he might put five hundred yards on to one of these bobbins. Well a bobbin at each side, before that warp were out the bobbin were done. And, well the weaver, they couldn’t really expect the weaver to do it.
(500)
Well you'd to get another bobbin and then you’d to tie all these ends together, you hadn’t to make a mark in the cloth, you'd to tie ‘em all on before they wove reight off, and in different stages so's the ends wove in gradually like. There’d be thirty six ends on a bobbin, that were seventy two ends you had to do.
(30 mins)
R- And we had a do wi’ this fella, he were a grand fella what were the beamer. We said why don't you put enough on? He says “I've been told to put so many yards on and that were so they wouldn't weave a warp out. Throwing some more work on to tacklers. Oh they had a down on the tacklers at Birley's. I don't know why, whatever they could do to make ‘em have some extra work they did do. And like there's only one fella left now what I used to work with. You know, if somebody said “We want some proof of it.” There's only one fella left.
You mean they've all died.
R- Yes.
Worn out.
R- And age. This fella he's eighty odd what’s still living.
[I’m smiling as I transcribe this because it’s 25 years since Fred and I made this tape and he’s still alive and well in Earby! I don’t think we expected it!]
Aye.
And when you went on to the self threading shuttles at Johnsons, those shuttles ud be longer still wouldn't they? Or would they?
R- No they weren’t, they were just average. More or less like they'd had before. But when I went to Johnsons, 1 don’t know whether I’ve telled you before, they’d had nearly as many tacklers on that set as years they’d been working. I don't think they'd ever had a tackler what stopped above twelve month. There were some on 'em only stopped a week or two. So you can imagine what that set were like when I went on to it. And they were putting these new roller motions on as well.
(550)
They'd never bothered putting 'em on this other set didn't t’other tacklers what were following it. And these other tacklers what were supposed to come on the set and run it, well beggar it, they weren’t bothered about putting new shuttles to and some on 'em got sacked, some on 'em give up. And I went on and big do's and little does I got all these self threaders on. I will say this about it, you weren’t expected to do it all in your working time. You could go in at Saturday morning and do four hours. And the first Saturday morning I went in, when I were going to start at Monday he says “Oh you can come in at Saturday morning and have a look round the set and do what you think.” I did that and then he says “You can come in at Saturday mornings while you get the set straightened up'.” Well that were a difference from what I’d been used to at such an Birley's. I were paid for all the work I did at Johnsons. That were when that Mr Lowe, Percy Lowe he were the boss. He were a director an all and if he said you could do it you could do it, there were no sending up to Slough [for permission] or owt of that. “Can I do this and can I do that?” Whatever he wanted to do he just did it.
That were Norman Lowe weren’t it?
R – No, Percy.
Percy Lowe, that’s it.
R - I think his house is for sale now at Barlick. Where you turn going on to Letcliffe Park up at top.
Yes that's it.
R- When I were coming down on the bus yesterday I come over the top and I thought eh!, I saw this sign, I thought that's Percy’s house. He used to live just up here, just a bit further up than me.
Aye up Stoneybank.
R- Well he wore a fella what you looked up to. He knew his job and you could look up to him. And I don't think he ever asked you to do owt daft or owt out of the ordinary.
(600)
How had he learnt his job Fred?
R- Oh he started as a lad from school in the office and worked his way up. [At Nutter Brothers at Grove Mill under H Wilkinson. See Horace Thornton evidence. He had a good opinion of Percy Lowe as well.] Then it came when he were about sixty three they pensioned him off, early retirement, so as they could get somebody in to modernise all the place. He wouldn’t. He didn't believe in all this modernisation. All he were doing was getting money off, you know, profits, and as I say they paid him out and they got another fella in. You'll happen know him, Jack Abbott, he has that pet shop in Barlick.
(35 mins)
And he has them kennels down (?) He came then and he modernised it all. And he got these other looms up from Wrexham, they had a mill at Wrexham and they closed that mill down. He fetched all the looms back up here.
When you went to Johnsons in 1952 how many loom were they running Fred?
R- I think about hundred and twenty.
Oh so there'd only be one tackler?
Only be one tackler?
R - Where.
Johnsons.
R- Oh no.
No, how many looms were they running all told?
R - Oh all told, eight hundred and odd.
Ah.
R- Aye, nearly nine hundred.
there’d. be what, six tacklers?
R- Oh no there’d be seven tacklers.
Aye, seven that's it, seven tacklers.
R- Aye.
And so when this new fella Abbott modernized it, you say he modernised it. He’d space out would he, re-space?
R - Re-space yes.
What year did they do that? Roughly?
R- 1960, 1961 happen.
They were late.
(650)
R- They said you know that they were in the wrong, running like they were but this Mr Lowe, he had all his chairs at home. [Had his head screwed on.] He knew what he were doing and when they got shut of a lot of old looms they got paid for 'em and they got paid on modernisation. Some folk said it had to be done in a certain time but he knew when it had to be done.
So in other words he re-spaced and drew under the scrapping scheme at the same time?
[The scrapping scheme or ‘contraction’ was a government initiative to reduce capacity in the industry by paying manufacturers to scrap looms. The big mistake was that they didn’t scrap entire mills, they allowed individual firms to scrap their surplus. This meant that the remaining looms carried the full fixed overheads of the firm and reduced their economic contribution.]
R- That's it yes.
So the scrapping scheme paid for his re-spacing.
R- Oh a lot on it yes.
Aye. How much did they get when they scrapped a loom Fred?
R- I've forgot now. It were so much a reed space.
Aye.
R- So much an inch and I can’t remember now what it were Stanley. It were enough for some of these other firms to retire off.
Yes. Now when they scrapped those looms Fred, which looms did they scrap.
R - Well down at Wrexham they'd have 400 new looms.
Who'd made them. Whose looms were them?
R - Pilling's and Pemberton’s. And when they were shutting up there they [Johnsons] came up to New Road and they put two hundred loom in at New Road, two hundred of these Lancashire looms from Wrexham and they also started an automatic place up next door.
What sort of automatics?
R - Them were Livesey’s.
R- Then they got that all going and then they re-spaced at our side and they sold a lot of looms but they kept a lot of looms. They'll still have some at Johnsons what used to be at Birley’s I think what will be going on for hundred year old. But they’re like little sewing machines, they've been looked after, they’re good.
Now when they came round to scrapping looms, how did they decide which ones they were going to scrap?
R- Well, where we worked then they had Coopers. Cooper 46s, Cooper 40's, Pemberton 40's and Pemberton 46s. And they scrapped all the Coopers and kept these Pembertons. But that were another little thing they didn't really know about. They'd Pembertons of different models and they thought a Pemberton loom were a Pemberton loom but they weren’t. And they finished up even on that set what I had after they'd modernised. They had what they call Pemberton old looms 40s, we’d Pemberton 46's old looms, we’d some Pemberton new looms plain and then we’d Pemberton's wi’ what could be converted into cross rods with driving at setting-on side. Then we had some Pilling 68 inch looms and we had a Pemberton 66 inch loom and oh Pemberton 68 and 66's in Pemberton. We had all them different make of looms. But according to them when they were setting up they'd only Pemberton's and Pilling’s.
(750)
And they must have thought every shaft ud do for every loom. And every wheel ud do for every loom but they didn't. As far as they were concerned they only had two sets of spares, whereas in effect they'd have six or seven.
(40 mins)
R- That's it. Oh, they had a great big store room. [for spares]
Aye. And you reckon that were a mistake Fred.
R - It were a mistake and another mistake what they made, they put looms across the mill instead of running with the bays at top you know. [Fred means not having the looms in line with the shafting which ran across the line of the roof bays. Important to realise that this means they had done away with the engine because in order to do this they would have to have individual electric motors on the looms.] When you have your looms running the reight way you get light all down the alley's don't you.
Yes.
R – Well, to make place look tidy they put ‘em in other way across. [In line with the roof lights or bays] And then what were your looms here you’d no light shining on 'em ‘cause it [the ceiling] were plaster there. Then at the other side the light were shining on to them looms.
So in other words instead of doing as you do in a shaft driven shop and go across the bays, they put 'em in with the bays.
R- With the bays aye, the wrong way round. In olden days they knew what they were doing wi’ that didn't they?
Oh God aye.
R – They’d never a think of putting ‘em in the other way round would they.
And they just did that for tidiness? Just because it fitted better that way.
R- Aye and they did it up at New Road and all. And they had a manager came up from Wrexham he started, you know, measuring out and I said “They’re the wrong way is them.” He said “Oh well, it's the only way they can get 'em in to make it look tidy.” I said “When they put them in they might be in for fifty year and they're wrong, they're going to be wrong for fifty year.” He said “It’s nowt to do wi’ me.” [Fred laughs] And that were the answer you got. I’d studied a lot on cotton and looms and all that.
(800)
I used to read books for hours and hours and the first thing 1 knew, it were wrong when they were putting looms in this way across. It does look tidy when you go in but that’s not the point. Many a time, you know, although they were gauzes, you’d be surprised, if it isn't light enough you can get 'em into the wrong dent on a gauze.
Aye.
R- Because they’re only one in a dent and they’d have some, lets see, one in a dent you know, about 90 reed. It were just hopeless trying to take them up. In fact I had a big torch and if I were having any bother I used to take me torch.
And that were during the day?
R - Day.
Oh, very interesting Fred. Now when they got round to scrapping looms, who actually scrapped the looms. Did you scrap 'em or did somebody come in?
R- No, Rushworths came in, these scrap merchants.
George Rushworths from Colne.
R- Aye they came in and they smashed 'em all up.
But there were a big twist weren’t there when they were scrapping 'em in some places.
(850)
R- They just hit the loom frame didn't they and they never knocked the loom in bits. And then they had welders coming in, welding 'em up again. They were paid for 'em and that happened at Spring Mill here. They got paid for a lot of looms and they never went out didn't the looms, they were never scrapped. They were hit with a big hammer but they were never knocked in bits. They were just cracked and then they came in and welded ‘em.
So they'd just crack the end frames like.
R - Aye just a little crack in ‘em, not too much. So as they could weld 'em up again. I dare say they'd have got in bother if the inspector had come round.
Yes. Well, Ernie told about a thing like that when they scrapped at Bouncer I think it were and he said that they came in and as far as he were concerned they must have made a bit better job of smashing ‘em up there. But he said as far as he were concerned these looms had been smashed like. And a loom traveller happened to come round, you know, just for old times sake. He says do you mind if I just have a look in the shed like. Because I can remember when we scrapped some at Bancroft we scrapped about two hundred loom not so long since and it's a terrible sight to see a pile of scrap where there was a loom isn't it.
R - It is aye.
It looks all wrong doesn’t it Fred.
R- It does aye.
It really looks bad. And this traveller went in to look, and you can just imagine, you know four hundred and eight hundred loom shop, every loom..
R - Smashed.
(900)
..smashed. And he walked in and he looked and he said “This won’t do.” He said I’m going to make a telephone call.” And he went
(45 mins)
out and Ernie said he didn’t know who he rang up, but he said the following day the scrap chaps came in and smashed all the bits up that were on the floor. And evidently they'd smashed 'em in a certain way which meant that there was a hell of a lot of those looms that were still all right.
R- That's it aye.
Now what they’d done, I don’t know exactly what they’d done. Whether they'd left all cross rails and not smashed the gears you know, and this that and the other. But if a loom was smashed properly they'd smash the gears an all wouldn't they?
R- Aye well there were lots of looms, I never said owt, but there’d be a lot of other folk see it and never said owt, 'cause they were going. But they were taking bottom shafts out you know off looms. 'Cause one fella, he came in the store room when we were having us dinner one day. And he says has anybody any vinegar? We said no, what for? He said I thought you might have had a bottle of vinegar knowing you had fish and chips. I said well can’t you get some at the chip hole when tha goes for thee fish and chips? He says there’s a tappet on a bottom shaft yonder and I can’t get it off. I've taken the screws out and I were going to put some vinegar in. He says it's a good dodge I don't know whether you know it or not. He says it’ll free ‘em up. And anyway I'd had some pickled onions and there were some vinegar in the jar. He says I’ll take that. And he took it, next time I were round that way, the shaft were out and the tappet were off. Have you heard about it before?
(950)
What, vinegar?
R - Vinegar yes.
Yes, I’ve heard of vinegar for loosening stuff off like that
R- So they must have been, they were going for spares.
R- Saving a few tappets and some bottom shafts. They must have had some ordered.
And like a lot of firms, like Holdens in Barlick, they scrapped and started up as Bendem’s didn't they?
R- Oh aye. Well, Spring Mill, what were it, Speak and Booths and they started up again as Booth and Speaks.
Aye that’s it. Yes did they start up again in same mill?
R- Oh aye.
So they scrapped and started up again in the same mill with the same looms.
R- Well, not all, but a lot of the same.
No but a lot of the same looms.
R- In fact where they'd happen taken some slays out they were fetching slays out of other looms and putting 'em into, you know, might be a Dean's slay and putting it into a Pembertons as long as it ud go in and all that carry on.
Aye.
(1000)
SCG/05 May 2003
7,231 words
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AH/15
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 7th OF DECEMBER 1978 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
We are going to go straight on from the last tape 78/AH/14 about loom scrapping, we'll just go straight on Fred. The thing about the contraction of the industry and loom scrapping, really the terrible thing about it was that it didn’t work did it?
R- No it didn't work.
I mean what did they expect of it?
R- Well I think they had a very, very lucky do hadn't they with that. There were no saying we're going to scrap 20,000 looms and we're going to scrap so many spindles. They just left it didn't they. Spinning firms could scrap just what they wanted and manufacturers scrapped what they wanted and they had a lucky do. It fairly evened itself out. I don't think there were much bother about getting yarn and there could have been.
What you mean is if they'd scrapped too many spindles there could have been a shortage of yarn for looms.
R – That’s it aye and there were no saying that they'd to make it even. And it were, it were scrapped fairly even. But there were a spinning mill at Preston, eh, what [do you call it] going up over the bridge. I've forgotten the name of it now, it were a very big firm..
Horrocks’s?
R- No. They used to make some good weft but they were fine spinners, they [Johnsons] used to get all there 54s weft off ‘em. Anyway it doesn’t matter about the name but they had one floor working for nobody only Johnsons. And they scrapped and that just upset Johnsons a bit. They could get other yarn but it weren’t in the same street as this what they'd been used to getting.
Was that mule or ring?
R - Mule.
Aye.
R- It were a well known mill about four storey's high, you know, like spinning mills were.
Yes.
R - But big does and little does they managed. They allus had a lot of stock in and I don't think they ever used their stock up before they got accumulating again off other mills.
Was that fairly common in those days Fred to carry a good stock of weft? A good stock of yarn,
R- I think it varied a lot on the [price on the] exchange didn't it..
Aye.
R- It used to be down a fraction and up and they used to carry a terrific stock at Johnsons and they were a firm like this were Johnsons, everybody wanted to deal with them ‘cause they allus got their cheques at month end, there were no quibbling. And I've heard a lot of these travellers what used to come say “Eh I wish I could get in at Johnsons!” Cheques were there every month and no quibbling about it.
(50)
Course the great thing about that is that the suppliers would look after Johnson's wouldn't they.
R- That's it, they'd no bother about getting owt had Johnson's, no.
‘Cause if they knew they were going to get paid they'd send 'em their stuff. Would you say that some of the other manufacturers were getting a bad name then for being slow payers?
R- Well, there’d be some on 'em. There’d be a lot of them, you know, they’d have to sell their cloth probably before they could pay for the yarn. Not 'em all, but some ud be more or less hand to mouth, they wouldn’t have a backing like what Johnson’s had.
When the scrapping took place, it all happened really over a short time didn't it?
R- It did aye.
Round about 1952, was it?
R- Aye it started, well I should say round about 1952 yes.
How many loom do you think went out in Earby? Just have a bit of a reckon if you can.
R- Well there’d be six hundred at what they called the Earby Manufacturing Company.
Which mill were that, Victoria?
(5 mins)
R- In Victoria Mill, up to the Water Street end. Birley's went out, they'd have about eight hundred loom. Then there were one, it used to be, it were where I learnt to weave like, Bracewell Hartley’s. They called it Hartley Wiltex. Somebody had gone in wi’ Joe Hartley then. Hartley Wiltex they called it, they'd have four hundred loom. There were another about two hundred looms Jim Watson’s, then there were another it were a Nelson firm, they had about two hundred loom an all. I think that ud be what went out.
When did Grove go out?
R- Oh they went out before the war, when Rover came during the war.
Aye, they'd gone out. That were one of the mills that was…
R – Empty.
One of the mills that was centralised or whatever they called it. What did they call it? During the war they stopped certain mills didn't they?
R- They did yes. 'Cause there were some, they concentrated ‘em didn't they. A mill what were running four hundred loom they'd happen stop ‘em two hundred, and they let another firm come in wi’ two hundred in the same department
That's it aye. And they tell me, I don't know if it’s right or not, that there were some fiddles went on wi’ that job during the war. Stacking looms up on top of each other.
(100)
R- Oh yes aye. Well, we had a friend at Nelson and then he went to Blackburn and we lost touch with him until during the war and I used to go wi’ me father a bit up to the Red Lion at Earby, up to the pub.
What were his name this bloke Fred?
R - Varley. And he lived at what we call up at Mount, that’s a big house reight on the top. They used to make teas and take boarders in, they had a licence. I suppose they had to fetch their coupons with them what were living there. And a fella at the mill he says do you know anybody called Varley? I says what Varley? He says “Well he knows your dad and he knows that he has a lad, or two lads and he says he wants to know if you'll come up to the Red Lion on Friday night and he'll meet you there in the taproom. And so I telled me father, “Oh aye" he says, I know who it is.” And oh, what the heck do they call him, anyway I've forgotten his name now. Anyway we met him and he were wi’ another fella what were a school master and so he says "We always go in the tap rooms, we never go in t’other rooms.” So there were a little room then at the Red Lion, just a few used to go in. So he said “Let’s go in there and then we can have a reight talk.” So we had a fair talk and I think he were going home through the week and we met him again. And he says “Best job I’ve ever had in me life!” Me father says “What’s that?” He says “I'm concentrated!” He says “I've a hundred looms weaving.” And he were getting paid for about two hundred, you know, for his profits off two hundred and he’d only a hundred. And he were getting paid off actually two hundred looms off the government. He says “It’s a real job. I only go about three days a week to have a look round. All orders comes through the government, no bother about that and all the cheques come through the government for what we’re weaving.” And my wife had an uncle, he took a pub up at Embsay. The Cavendish Arms they called it and I used to go up part and he says “There's a fella as comes in here and he says Earby were mentioned and this fella says “Do you know anybody called Inman in Earby?” “Aye.” And he says “Well
(150) (10 mins)
when will he be coming up again?” He says “Oh I don't know, he comes up Sunday nights when it’s moonlight.” I used to walk up from Skipton. So anyway he said to let him know when I were up again and he’d come to see me. And he’d retired then from Blackburn and he’d bought a house in Embsay and retired in Embsay. But he’d lost his wife, they'd only been there about two year when his wife died. So he went to live with his daughter down South and that were the last, we never heard anymore about him. But he were one of lucky ones like wi’ this concentration job.
There was something about licensed looms wasn't there?
R- Aye. Well the government knew all the looms what there were didn't they. 'Cause they'd to stop a set at Birley’s, they'd a set of looms to stop. And that fella [tackler] had to go. Well he went down to Coventry I think but he didn't stop so long! [Fred laughs] He come back, when the bombing started. And I think he got on at Barlick, at Pickles's at Barlick.
Aye you did mention it. Have you ever seen looms stacked on top of one another?
R - Oh yes, aye.
Why did they do that Fred?
R- Well, to make space I suppose. There were a lot at Spring Mill here stacked because they had Spring Mill had the Admiralty. There used to be them big drums o£ baccy come, stocked up wi’ baccy at Spring Mill. And down one side there were all looms, I think they were two high. Well when they come to gait ‘em up again there were a lot of stuff broken on 'em. 'Cause them what lifted 'em up weren’t bothered, they weren’t going to run ‘em when they were put back again were they. And they, I think they were concentrated down at New Road somewhere, they had a few looms down there,
Was that Speak and Booth before then?
R- Aye, what they call Bailey's.
Bailey's aye.
R- Bailey's aye. A good old firm, old established.
And then of course Booth & Speak’s went into Albion didn't they?
R- First of all they bought Charlie Shuttleworth out down Earby.
Which mill were that?
R- In Victoria. In Big Mill.
Yes, aye.
R- Well that were Speak’s what bought it out and then they bought this out [Spring Mill] and shut that up down Earby [In Victoria] and then they had Dotcliffe. And then they bought Albion.
Aye they sold Dotcliffe out for engineering didn't they and went into the Albion. And then eventually of course they finished at Albion and scrapped.
R - Aye.
(200)
Damart are in there now.
R- Yes. I think young Booth has some looms running in Colne hasn't he.
I don’t know.
R - Aye he took some out of there.
Aye. And so they scrapped all these looms. Like I mean at Bancroft it meant that they got down from, I think they scrapped about three hundred at Bancroft. But I once heard Sidney Nutter say that it never made any difference to the orders. He said that they assumed that if, just for arguments sake, 20,000 looms were scrapped in North East Lancashire, that ud make so much more work for the looms that were left. And from what I can gather that was the intention, but it never actually worked did it?
R – No. They thought that everybody would benefit, all the others ud be full up didn't they. But you got little mills, same as them in Cowling and it were a bad job when they scrapped weren’t it.
Aye like a one mill town.
R- Well it were the same at Foulridge weren’t it? There were three mills in Foulridge and there isn't one now is there.
Yes.
R- But there's other industries. It's a hive of industries is Foulridge isn't it, I don't think there's any shortage of work.
No, and I'll tell you something else, Barlick’s getting to be that way. I mean there's Rolls, well I mean every mill in the town’s full, there’s no mills empty in the town you know. And Bancroft won't be empty, and you know they all come for one reason, labour. And I think that that's a throw back to the days of weaving, people were brought up under the old regime where they went to work to work.
R- That's it.
And there are still a lot of workers about in Barlick and Earby, Foulridge, places just round here that haven't been spoilt yet.
R- Aye, that is so.
And that's the reason the industry's coming back you know. But it makes you wonder how long it'll last Fred.
(15 mins)
R - Aye.
I mean look at Rolls now. I mean we should mention that Rolls Royce at the moment are out on strike and this is the 7th of December this tapes being made and they had a meeting today and they're not going back. I mean, it seems to me that when it gets to the stage that people will vote to go out on strike just before Christmas there's something wrong somewhere.
R- Aye. Well when I heard it on there [wireless] and you know, they give a cheer and “Oh it’s a majority.” Well, they don't know whether there's a majority or not for striking. I know a lot in Earby and they’d be back tomorrow if they got half a chance,
(250)
on th’old wage never mind about any rise or owt. They'd go back on the old wage.
Well, look how much they've lost now. [while out on strike]
R - Aye,
How long will it take 'em to make that up?
R- And there’s some on ‘em they've just bought new houses up here and such. They must be in a sticky hole now you know.
You can’t understand 'em can you.
R- No. It’s a thing what everybody’s thinking about isn't it, going out on strike. If they aren’t out on strike they aren’t modernised are they. It's the modern method isn't it, out on strike, not what can we do to increase production in other ways, let's have a strike and stop it. There are some times when I think they've got to threaten strikes but I don't think anybody gains in the long run do they.
Do you think that if there had been a really strong union it could have made any difference in the cotton industry? You know, to the way the cotton industry was run. Do you think that it could have made any difference?
R- No. Because when you're going back into the bad old days, do you mean that sort of thing?
Yes.
R- No, ‘cause I think there were too many workers after work weren’t there, and they weren’t all in the union.
Yes there were a surplus of labour.
R- There were a surplus of labour in the past.
It always seems to me that these manufacturers went on, that was the reason they went on because they had that surplus of labour.
R- That's it aye.
And when you come to think about it, it was the 1939 war that altered it. And once that surplus of labour had gone they didn't seem to have the necessary means of disciplining the workers. They had no other way of keeping production up other than the old discipline. And it makes you wonder if the system itself was completely wrong Fred, doesn’t it. You know, I mean I think there is room for arguing that a system which could only be profitable by using harsh disciplines and severe measures to keep people working flat out all day, there's a lot to be said for that system having to finish.
R - Oh definitely yes. Well we’d a case at the union job [at Birley’s] What it were, eight of us, we were all in the union and things were getting just to a pitch so we said could the union secretary come down and just have a word wi’ the manager, things were getting too bad. Anyway, he came down and knocked at the office door and he says “I'm Mr. Titherington, Overlooker’s Secretary from Colne. Could I speak to the management?” He says “No you can’t!” Just banged the door in his face. That were as far an we got wi’ the union.
And there were nothing you could do about it?
R- No. And he had us all up In the office, he said “The Union man's been down and anybody not satisfied, they can have their cards immediately. I can fill this shop up wi’ non-union members.” And that's as far as you could get wi’ ‘em and you couldn't get work anywhere else you were forced to bow down.
What were your feelings then?
R- Well, you were in a hell of a hole. I were stuck same as some of the others were. I had wife and she hadn't the best of health. And then me father and mother like were still in Earby, else I did feel like getting away. Going down, you know, happen Luton or sommat where folk were going to. I thought well, if I get down there and there's me father and mother left up here, you're a long way off, so I stuck it out.
(20 mins)
R - But it were against the grain all the time and that were on me mind, as soon as I can get out, I’m getting out. And we had a fella working there, he got called up, he were in sick berth and when he came back he didn't come back to Birley’s. He went to this New Bridge, they were gaiting up and I thought well I have a chance of getting in there like 'cause he’d getten to be boss tackler. So I says “Any chance of a job Arthur?” He said “Yes.” I said “I’ll have to give a fortnight’s notice.” He said “Well, the job’ll be there when tha’s given a fortnight’s notice.” So I went there.
So the boss tackler had the shout who he set on?
R- Well he had to a certain extent.
Yes.
R- 'Cause t’other fella didn't know any Earbyers.
That's it yes, he’d be relying on him to pick good men out.
(350)
R- He were relying on him to know who he were setting on. It were funny were that. When I went, there were a fella there from Skipton, and he were a wonderful man wi’ handling of these silk warps and that but he had no nerve to tackle. He’d been a tackler and somehow he’d lost his nerve and all he were doing, he were gaiting up, he didn't want to have a set. And when the mill were gaited up he were finishing. He come from Skipton and he came to me and he says “Have you ever gaited a silk warp up?” I says “No. I've gaited spuns up you know and different sorts.” And he says “Well if you want you can watch me and then watch some of the others and sort out which you think’ll be best for yourself.” So I stood there and I watched him gait this warp up, set it on, no ends down, 100% perfect. I said “By gum that’s alreight!” He said “Well if you do the same you'll have the same.” And I’ll say this, I could have tied a warp up and gaited it and nobody could have told you whether he’d done it or I'd done it. It were identical, I tied me knots just like he told me to, in the same place as he did.
You mean in the lambing strings? In the bands.
R – No. You'd to tie your warp ends on to the lap end when you were gaiting a new warp up.
Aye. Instead of like cotton, just shoving it into the roller. Into the sand roller.
R - Oh no. No you'd to cut 'em across and make 'em all..
Tied 'em in bunches like, into a..
R - That's it about inch and half each..
Aye to give you a lap to start off, yes, yes.
R – Mm. And if I saw that fella to-day I'd still thank him. I thanked him when he were leaving. I said thank you very much Ernest.
Because one of the things about that ud be tying the knots in such a way that you got all those ends even when you started wouldn't it.
R- Every one on 'em were just same tension. They'd got to be..
Yes and especially wi’ sommat like 9,000 ends in a warp.
R- Aye, and I thought well, that were very good on him.
Yes.
R- To come and tell me.
Because there were a lot of ‘em, well at least I’m telling you and I shouldn't do. Is it true to say that there were quite a lot of tacklers and other people as well in the mill that were a bit old fashioned about passing their knowledge on?
(400)
R - Oh there were! Definitely, and some on ‘em would pass sommat on so as you'd be stuck wi’ it.
What do you mean, how so?
R- Well they'd happen tell you a certain thing and it wouldn’t do and you might have to go and ask him do you see and then he’d come and do the job. And then he’d stand, you know, wi’ his hands in his waistcoat, he's done it, you couldn't. I know lot’s have been told wrong ideas and that. And then they've happen gone and asked the fella and he's come. It's all been awkwardness and then to get a bit of praise themselves that they could do it. But I were never like that meself, I'd rather put somebody on a straight path. Aye. But it were funny about them knots, I've tried to learn, well teach other folk how to tie 'em and they couldn't. And it were only a reef knot and then, you know, pulled tight and another knot tied on it.
Yes.
R - Aye and they couldn't get 'em reight way. They were tying ‘em and they were coming slack you know. They'd never tightened 'em up reight.
(25 mins)
Aye, yes
R - And then, well I know this, when I finished at Johnson’s, I'd been there twenty, were it twenty year or twenty one. Alan Smith says how have you enjoyed it Fred? I says I’ll tell you, they’ve been the happiest years of my tackling career. Although I enjoyed it at New Bridge but this has been better than New bridge. Although I dropped me money when I went to Johnson's. But I think you get it back in other ways.
Yes.
R- They never paid big wages but there were these bonuses you got now and again and that superannuation, that’s a big thing is that. And then you got overalls subsidised. It all added up.
Yes. Looking back Fred, I remember something you said on a very early tape that we did and you said that the only idea that you'd ever had was that you wanted to be a tackler.
R- Yes.
Well like, looking back on a long and distinguished career, if you could go back with what you know now, would you still be a tackler?
(450)
R- Yes I would.
Well that's not so bad is it.
R- No. No I'd still go back and in fact when Jim said I'd to finish up there, eh, it were like hitting me on top of the head.
Aye.
R - Aye it were.
Aye.
R- And there's a fella gone back to Johnsons and he retired and he says you daft beggar like, going back to work at thy age. Anyway he's back. So I were talking to him and I says “How arta going on?” He says “Eh, I'm enjoying meself.”
And where's he tackling?
R- He’s up at Johnsons.
Back at Johnson's again aye.
R- He's only doing, you know, about ten hours or sommat like that. Well, he's as happy as can be. I'd be the same, I were happy when I were doing up there [Bancroft] and then you know, Jim wanted me to go up there for a week or two.
Aye up to Bancroft aye.
R- And I were stuck all that time but I enjoyed meself.
Aye.
R- And that’s the main thing isn't it in work, whatever job you're doing, if you're enjoying it.
That's it Fred.
R- Aye.
If your work’s your pleasure you're a lucky man.
R- Yes. And it has been with me.
Aye.
R- Like even when in the bad old days, I enjoyed me work, me straight forward work, it were all this grunting and nattering what you had to put up wi’, unnecessary, what weren’t your job many a time. They’d little tricks, going round happen at Saturday afternoon when there were nobody there and then they'd write on a bit of paper and leave it on the loom, ‘Do not set this loom on until you've had the tackler, side weaving.’ or another ‘Do not set this loom on until you've had the tackler, temple marking.’ ‘Do not set this loom on until you've had the tackler. Black oil mark.’ And there were some Monday mornings and there’d be about five weavers come after you wi’ papers. Not just me, all the other tacklers an all.
Yes.
R- Aye all bloody stupidity. I'd set 'em on.
Aye. Tell me sommat Fred, something I've never asked anybody else
(500)
I've heard about this but I know nothing about it. I know it's a terrible thing when it happens. Have you ever come across warp slashing, you know stabbing a warp?
R – No. I’ve heard about it. The only slashing I've ever seen, I felt sorry for the little lad, it were a little lad what did it about five year old.
Aye.
R - And he went into the mill, this is at Johnsons lay and he went round the wall and he put his finger in, they’re only gauzes, and about six warps and he pulled 'em like that. Well he were pulling great big gaps out! And I catched him on the end and they said “What do you think you're doing?” He says “Why, have I done something wrong?”
Aye.
R- They says “Yes you have!” He said “I’m sorry but that other boy what went out before me told me what to do.” They says “Has he done any?” “Oh no he didn’t touch any, he told me to do it.” And the poor little kid were reight innocent about it. They explained it to him and he started crying and “Don’t tell me dad will you.” and they said well don't do it any more will you. He said "No"
Have you every heard about, you know, have you ever heard anybody talking about..
R - Oh yes, at this Earby Manufacturing Co. they used to have 'em slashed regular, stabbed.
Yes.
(30 mins)
But it's something you can’t tell till it happens can you.
R- No.
If somebody just shoves a knife into a warp and just shoves it down into a warp.
R - Aye.
And you think It's just a couple of broken ends come up at first and then they come up again don't they.
R- Aye but it isn’t, that’s it aye. Some on 'em like four or five inches, real gashes.
Aye.
R- I've heard about that, it seemed to happen a few times at Earby Manufacturing Co I think they had an idea but they could never prove it who it were.
Aye.
R- But.
Do you think it ud be, somebody with a bit of a twist or..
R- Somebody wi’ a grudge.
Yes.
R- 'Cause I’ll not mention any names but the same person that was suspected of it eventually came to weave at New Bridge and she were absolutely a duck egg.
(550)
And every Friday afternoon she used to have some smashes and the trap hand used to have to go and take 'em up and she’d have three smashes sometimes. And there could happen be seven or eight hours time booked and that were all time. Money for nowt, instead of running eight loom she'd only be running five loom. Trap hand were taking traps up and I thought well, if she'll do things like that… It happened every Friday, there's sommat suspicious here and it might have been reight what they, when they suspected her of these slashes at the other mill. I think there's sommat wrong wi’ ‘em mentally isn't there when they'll do things like that..
Well..
R- Peevishness.
Can you remember the fire bug?
R- Yes aye, aye.
What year were that, what year was it now? It were after I come out of the army, I’d got up to Barlick, so it were after 1960. Would it be about 1965? Sometime round about then?
R- I think it would be a bit before that.
It could have been you know.
R - Aye it were before that because they'd set the school afire across here.
That’s it Springfield, aye, yes.
R - When there were a barn across there.
Yes, and I mean Crow Nest went up, they never found out really what had caused that. I mean Crow Nest were the biggest one weren’t it. Crow Nest were into the millions like, you know.
R- Aye, aye there were that weren’t there.
It were a complete gut.
R- Eh, weren’t it a job! Police coming round. I can remember it were a Saturday night when Dotcliffe were afire.
(600)
That’s it Dotcliffe burnt out, that were it.
R- And our Jack, what would he be, about fourteen or fifteen, and he’d been to Skipton to the pictures and there were Wuthering Heights on. And he’d gone to see this with another two mates, you know. There were four on 'em went, that were it. Our Jack and two on 'em lived up here and one lad lived on Green End Road so the police come round at Sunday wanting to know where you had been and all that. So he said “Where were you Jack?” He says “I'd been to the pictures at Skipton.” “And what time did you get home?” So, he’d come back on such and such a bus. And he said “What time did you get in the house?” “Oh well it ud happen be about twenty minutes after the bus had come into Earby.” “And where were you during all that time?” He says “Well Eric Barker and Ernest Barker and me, we walked from the bus station and come up New Road wi’ this other lad. I forget his name. Took him home and then all three of us walked up here together.” “Aye well.” he said “That’s a good answer is that Jack. You didn't let him go home on his own.” Jack said “No.” “Now, what picture did you go to see?” “Wuthering Heights.” “Aye, and can you tell me a little bit about it?” “Oh yes.” So he started telling him about it and he said “That'll do.” You know he were making reight sure that he’d been to Skipton. And I thought he's putting the kids in a funny hole and now where does this here boy live that you took home, what's his number have you
(650) (35 mins)
any idea. Oh aye, he told him the name, and he went up to Barkers and quizzed them an all. They all told the same tale. Aye well, had he seen anything suspicious when they were coming up New Road and no. Well where were you? I says “On at the Conservative Club.” “What time did you leave the Con Club?” I says “About five to eleven.” And he says “Who were you talking to?” So I says a fella called Alf Duxbury. We weren’t drinking, we were finishing us conversation after we’d finished.” He says “I'm not bothered about whether you were drinking or not. That doesn't come in to it. You could have been talking at one o'clock and drinking and it wouldn't have bothered this enquiry.” Anyway, I see Alf Duxbury and I said “Did the bobby call at your house?” He says “Oh aye he's been to everybody's house.” I said “Did he mention me like talking to them?” He says “Oh aye. I said I were talking to thee and everything were in order.” But what a job them police had hadn't they, going round to every house.
Aye, and they never did find out who it were. [I found out later that the police took the Fire Bug so seriously that they brought in a squad of detectives, I think from Bradford, who normally did nothing but murders. They were far more thorough than the local bobbies.]
R- No, every house and getting all these here conversations.
Aye, they thought they had him one time.
R- Aye.
When that place at Skipton went up, didn't they.
R- Yes.
But they hadn't.
R - But my wife, she did give one a cursing. There were one up and down all in black, a policeman, had a black dog. He had a black leather coat on and you know dark pants, this here black dog and we were going out this Friday night and there weren’t many lights then, the road hadn't been altered. Just got to the bottom of the street and this dog come flying out wi’ this fella hold on it. We says “You big daft bugger.” Eh, she says tha’s frightened me to bloody death.” And he says “You've no need to be like that.” She says “Well, Tha’rt bloody daft coming out like that and startling folk!” He said “I didn't think I were doing anything wrong.” [Fred laughs] But I mean we’d just come out of the house
(700)
and we’re walking down. Bye god he did make the wife jump! I bet he were surprised when he got cursed an all. [Laughs] 'Cause I could have had a right joke. one time wi’ two on ‘em. There were some reight clever buggers came, you know, they weren’t all decent. And I’m coming home from the White Lion one night and there's a car pulls up reight sharp at Spring Mill gates and two blokes jumps out and runs in to the mill yard. I thought, bloody hell, I wonder if this is owt to do wi’ it. And I thought how could I do to make it so it couldn’t start. I didn’t know owt about these rotor arms or owt and then I stood and I waited on 'em coming back. They says, what do you want? I says “Well I just want to know who you are. You gave me a bit of a shock when you pulled up in that car and dashed on to there. There's a fire bug about.” And he said “Well we're after him.” I said “Well it ud have been as well if one had a stopped in the car wouldn’t it?” And he says “Well, we weren’t going to split up, we were both going together.” Whether they'd seen somebody on Spring Mill I don't know but they could have been fire bugs themselves for owt I knew. Aye, and I got the number of the car, I thought I’ll have the number of that bugger.
Aye, and as I say, they never did find out who it were.
R - No.
Anyway Fred I think just for time being, I think we’ve, I don't think we've done so badly at all. All I can say is it's been a pleasure.
(750) (40 mins)
R- Oh well, I've enjoyed it Stanley.
Good.
SCG/06 May 2003
6,034 words
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 00/FI/1 (side one)
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON 12TH DECEMBER 2000 AT 14 STONEYBANK ROAD, EARBY. THE INFORMANT IS FRED INMAN AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
[Notice that I had gone back 22 years later to talk to Fred again.]
Now then Fred, what year were you born?
R-1908.
What’s your full name?
R-Fred Inman.
Not Frederick? You were christened Fred?
R-Yes.
So you were born in 1908 and when’s your birthday?
R-19th December.
So you’re 92 this month?
R-Yes.
What was your father’s name?
R-Parkinson Inman.
What did he do for a living?
R-He worked at t’mill biggest part of his life and then he bought some land and started a poultry farm. Then when t’war came on it got too much for him and he selled out.
What was your mother’s full name?
R-Elizabeth Turner.
Her maiden name was Turner.
R-Yes, Turner.
Where was she born?
R-Earby.
R-And where was your father born?
R-Someweer up in’t Dales. To tell you’t truth he, me father was one of a big family and his father were a journeyman, do they call ‘em journeyman? Where they were building any reservoirs, any railways, anything, and there were’t bit of money theer and he were theer.
Like a navvy? [I was too quick here, the granddad was a mason/builder.]
R-I think there were about ten on ‘em, ten of a family.
Ten children.
R-And he said, and me aunty said t’same tale, that when they were sixteen, they’d to get away. And t’cotton trade were good I’ Lancashire and ever so many came over to Lancashire into t’cotton trade, never been known before for any o’t Inman family to go into t’cotton trade.
Have you any idea when your father was born? Roughly. When did he die?
R-It’d be t’1950’s
Near enough, say it were 1955, how old was he when he died?
R-76 or 77.
So he’d be born in about 1880, so it would be sometime like just before 1900, between 1895 and 1900 when he come down to, did he come to Earby at first?
R-He came to Barlick at first.
Where did he work at Barlick?
R-In one o’t weaving mills, I don’t know which it were. An er, were it on Rainhall road, nearly at t’bottom there were a shop and I think it were a lodging house and all and he lodged theer. And then he had a sister came over, me Aunt Maggie and she got wed and me father came to live in Earby and lived with them. And he started working in Earby.
Where did he work in Earby?
R-Well he worked at that Earby Manufacturing Company for a while and then he went from theer to B&W Hartley’s [Bracewell and William Hartley]and then he went from theer to Birley’s, Albion Mill.
Birley’s was Albion, Earby manufacturing Company were, which shed was that?
R-Hugh Currer’s, it were t’far end of t’Big Mill.
Victoria, Big Mill. Yes, and what was the other one you said he worked, you said he worked at Birley’s, Earby Manufacturing and another one you said?
R-B&W Hartley’s on’t New Road.
So that’d be Brook Shed was it or was it t’back end of Big Mill?
R-Brook Shed.
So you were brought up in Earby?
R-Yes.
You were born in Earby?
R-Yes.
So you were born in 1908. Whereabouts were you born?
R-I think it were in Albion Street. Then what I’m going to say, there’s really `no long livers on’t Inman side. Me grandma on’t Turner side she lived to be about 91, and that were a big achievement then. And er, I have a cousin, she’ll be about 95 now and quite capable of knocking about and then I had another cousin, she died two years sin’ and she were 97, and er, then there’s another cousin and she’ll be about 94. A few o’t Turner lot what lived to a good age.
Which house can you remember from your earliest remembrance?
R-Lincoln Road in Earby. It were a ,they were newly built, two down and two up.
Terraced houses?
R-Yes, terraced, built on to t’end of another row and er, that were t’first time I can remember living anywheer.
And how big a family of you were there?
R-There were only two on us, me brother and me.
What’s your brother called?
R-He were called Melbourne.
That’s a good name init! That house, so you’ll remember that house before t’first world war because you were born in 1908. Well just let me ask you some questions about the house. Just er, because nowadays you see, people don’t know anything about living conditions then. Did you have any carpets?
R-No, only rugs what me mother pegged, pegged rugs.
Sand on the floor?
R-No we hadn’t sand on t’floor we had oilcloth.
So it wasn’t a flagged floor, it were wooden floors wi’ oilcloth. [linoleum] How about curtains?
R-Of they had some fancy lace curtains up, they weren’t thick curtains, lace, they nearly all had lace curtain in them days I think.
How about roller blinds?
R-There were roller blinds up and these lace curtains allus pulled back. Roller blinds yes.
Coal fires?
R-Coal fires, oven.
No gas?
R-Yes there were gas.
Did you have gas lighting?
R-Yes, gas lighting.
So you wouldn’t use candles? Did you go to bed wi’ candles?
R-Yes, there were no gas upstairs.
Just gas upstairs.
R-Just gas in one room. There were only like t’gas in’t house, in’t living room, it had a mantle, that in’t kitchen were a burner.
Just a flare, just a fishtail.
R-Yes. And there were no gas upstairs.
So there’d be no hot water apart from, you’d have a side boiler.
R-There were a side boiler but er, I think there were a back boiler. Aye, we had hot water on’t tap in’t kitchen. Aye there were, there must have been a back boiler because I can remember me mother like cleaning it at underneath, sweeping it out. And then there were’t old side oven what’s never been beat yet.
Aye, that’s it. How about bathroom?
R-No bathroom.
Tin bath in’t front o’t fire?
R-No there were a bath in’t kitchen and it had a lid on and it were used for a, put stuff on like when it weren’t in use. And er me mother used to have to put a hoosepipe onto t’hot water tap to run into t’bath, there were no taps on’t bath. And when we’d finished us bath, she used to have to empty it with a lading can, teem it down’t sink, you could do that but if you’d have run yer water from the bath in’t sink you’d have had to pay.
Is that right? You’d have had to pay more if you’d had a bath connected up to the drains. I’ve never heard that before. So was it a cast iron bath or a tin bath?
R-Cast iron. Two on us in at once, sometimes three.
Aye, I’ll bet you a pound it were Friday night!
R- Yes.
(Laughter) You know I’ve often wondered how t’sewage went on on a Friday night because every bugger in’t Northern Union had a bath on Friday night didn’t they! What sort of a carry on was there at home? I mean can you ever remember going hungry?
R-No I never remember going hungry.
Can you remember your dad being out of work?
R-No, he were allus in work as long as I knew him.
Did your mother work?
R-No.
So she stayed at home and looked after th’house?
R-Yes, and did a bit of washing for other folk and happen looked after a youngster for somebody what went to t’mill. ‘Course they were only coppers in them days if she did a bit of that, but coppers were coppers weren’t they.
Well aye, yes.
R- Aye, it were all right up theer.
And what age were you when you went to school?
R-five.
Which school did you go to?
R-Riley Street.
Were that a church school or a board school?
R- Chapel school.
Aye, Riley Street Methodists was it?
R-Yes.
Were your mother and father religious? Did they go to chapel?
R- No. Me mother she were religious up to happen getting wed and getting a family. Actually I’ve heard her tell about being a Sunday School teacher at t’church, were me mother. And er, that Turner family, she were very very strict were me grandma about religion. You hadn’t to do this at Sunday and you hadn’t to do that.
Were they church or chapel?
R-Church.
So, in 1908, you’d be six year old when the First World War started. Can you remember anything about the first world war starting, have you any remembrance of it.
R-Well I can remember them saying like there were a war on and then we used to see t’soldiers marching through Earby. And you know you used to think eeeh, if I were only a soldier like they are, smart, then next of owt you’d know somebody were, had got killed and I allus remember one thing, and we’d have got us behinds punched [kicked in Earby usage] if we’d been catched, there were a feller about t’middle o’t war, he got killed and he were fetched home, they fetched him home, and they had him in t’front room, they had a front room at their house a bit lower down. They’d a, you know, roller blinds and they didn’t fit up to t’sides and we used to go and, trying to look round at t’coffin. All you could see were some wood and a Union Jack on. We were trying to see if we could, peeping round, ‘cause there were allus a light on when there were owt like that, folks used to be going didn’t they, looking at ‘em.
And I’m right in saying aren’t I that they used to do the burials on a Saturday
Because people couldn’t afford to take time off work and they didn’t bury on Sunday so Saturday were the day for burials.
R-Yes.
So if somebody died on say the Saturday of one week they’d have ‘em to keep while the following Saturday, for a week. Of course in those days there was only one place to keep the body, and that was in the house wasn’t it?
R-That’s it.
You kept the body in the house. Well, by the end of the week and it was warm weather, you were getting a bit of a problem weren’t yer.
R-Oh aye, well it lasted a long while did that ‘cause me mother were in’t front room when she died, coffin were put in’t front room wi’ her in until burial day.
How long ago was that? When was that?
R-It’d be happen 52. Sommat like that.
Because I mean nowadays everybody’s divorced from death aren’t they, someone teks the body away and keeps it nice and smart and fresh and all the rest of it er, you know and lands it back for the funeral don’t they. You know you don’t have that problem.
R-We mentioned me dad being called Parkinson. Well that’s actually, Inman’s t’same, they aren’t gypsies, what do they call them other lot?
Romanies?
R-Romanies.
Is that where the name comes from?
R- Yes.
I didn’t know that!
R-And er, Inman family what I know, there were Parkinsons here and Parkinsons there you know, sons and, there’s bags on ‘em. I once were down at, south on me holidays, I got stung wi’ a bee on me neck. Eeeh I were poorly, so I went to t’doctors at t’morning after and they says oh, doctor can’t see you today, they’re booked up. I says well what hev I got to do about this sting I says I can’t walk unless t’wife’s hold on me? I were dizzy. And she says well go out of here and take t’first turn to your left when you get out there’s an Indian doctor, and perhaps he’ll put you in. So we went theer and she were a receptionist, an Indian receptionist dosta know and she says well are you prepared to wait while about half past twelve? I said aye well I’ll have to if I want to see a doctor. She says we’re very very busy but she says I’ll guarantee he’ll see you at half past twelve. And when I went in it were an Indian doctor and he asked me me name and I told him and he says Inman! Is there any Parkinsons in your family? I says yes, scores on ‘em. Yes he says, Romanies. He says I’ll bet your family, your father’s family were a big family weren’t it? I says yes. He says how many on ‘em went to work in’t mill? I said I can only remember me dad going to work in a mill. Yes he says, I’ll bet biggest part on ‘em worked on the land as gamekeepers and working for big houses doing maintenance work, he said they didn’t believe in going into a mill didn’t a Romany. And it were true were that.
Aye, that’s interesting that, yes. Funnily enough I was going to look it up last night but I got turned on to doing different things but I was going to look your name up and just see what the derivation of it was.
R-And when I look back, from what I can remember, me Uncle Billy were’t oldest, he didn’t stop locally when he came out, away from Keighley he went to Blackburn and he were like a stone mason and builder working for somebody else. Then me uncle Tom, he never went into t’mill, he was more or less on’t councils, outdoor worker and me uncle Jack and me uncle Ralph, they were all outdoor workers, they didn’t want to go into t’mill.
When you say your uncle Jack and your uncle Ralph, I mean were they from the Turner side or were they from your dad’s side?
R-Me dad’s side. But I were going to say, tell you, when t’girls left home when they were sixteen, their mother gave ‘em a silver threepenny bit, that’s all she could afford to give ‘em. She used to say if you don’t spend that you’ll never be without money. And that were what they were sent away from home on and they’d to make their way the best way they could into Earby and Barlick. I’ve heard me dad tell, him and me uncle Jack, they had two mile to walk when t’school loosed and at Friday they’d to go to a reservoir two mile away. They’d to catch me dad when he had t’money on him, when he got paid.
When you say they had to catch your dad, you mean your granddad.
R- Aye. He used to give them a guinea [£1-05p] and they’d have to take this money home else he’d never come home wi’ it. He’d booze it aye.
He’d booze it afore he got home.
R- I’ve heard me dad say he’d probably have a guinea for hissel. For booze, and then he’d expect me mother to keep all t’family off a guinea but they had a rough time I’ them days did big families hadn’t they.
You’ve no idea where in the Dales that was, where they lived?
R-Now then, I have it somewhere, I have his birth certificate somewhere.
It doesn’t matter, you might find it, because we’ll do more recordings than we do today. So, going back to school, you were at school an er, that’s another thing that’s changed completely isn’t it, different carry on altogether at school in those days. I mean what were’t discipline like?
R-Oh you could call it fairly strict, I mean one word, used to suffice. You know it were enough for you.
Yes, because they’d use the cane?
R-Oh aye. And when we moved from Riley Street [school] we went up To Alder Hill when we was seven and every morning when t’bell went you’d all to fall in and line up and then th’headmaster used to walk round looking at yer clogs to see if you’d cleaned ‘em. You’d to hev clean clogs when you come to t’school.
Like, that ‘ud be t’usual footwear for everybody, I mean they’d all be in clogs wouldn’t they.
R-All be in clogs aye.
Were any of the kids in shoes?
R-No. All clogs.
All with irons, no rubbers.
R-No, clog irons.
Who were t’cloggers in Earby?
R-Cloggers? Well, t’Co-op were one o’t biggest and then there were one called Jennings, him and his lad, you know they were reight old timers and t’lad he went off wi’ consumption when he’d be about twenty one. So that clogging shop finished ‘cause he were taking over off his dad. There were one on Colne Road but they didn’t stop so long, they come frae Burnley I think happen thinking there was plenty of scope but there weren’t. When you think about it, at half past six o’t morning when they were all going to work it sounded like a lot of horses, cavalry coming, clogs, clomp clomp clomp.
Oh yes, there’s a lot of people that didn’t know anything about the area that have come here and made that mistake, they thought they were going to work on horses. When I were a lad in Stockport, you know during t’war, there were still a tremendous number wore clogs then. An indeed, I wore clogs meself when I were farming and when I was on’t cattle wagon but they’ve gone out completely now. I still have some clog irons and wooden pegs, you know the wooden pegs you drove into t’nail holes before you put your new irons on. I’ve still got pegs and clog nails and clog irons at home but I haven’t got any clogs.
R-Last feller to wear clogs, he lived up Stoneybank a bit higher up. It were when that Earby Film Transport were in’t go. He were like one o’t partners theer and his wife used to play hell with him walking down at six o’clock at morning clomping away in’t clogs. Eeeh, she used to play hell about him in his clogs but he said I’ll wear clogs as long as ever I can.
Well, that was just what I said because they were such good footwear, I mean my feet are still as straight as a die and I’m sure it was wi’ wearing clogs. And I remember it was very often a curious thing for people to see me wearing clogs. I remember delivering some cattle down in Surrey once and the woman in the house brought the children out to see me, she brought them out to have a look at the clogs because they’d never seen clogs down there, they just had no knowledge of them and she heard me walking round and she couldn’t understand how I could stand up in ‘em and drive in ‘em and I said well let’s put it this way, Be easier than wearing high heeled shoes, put me in high heels and I wouldn’t last so long. No, clogs are all right. I always had double irons, did you have single irons or doubles?
R-What do you mean, t’thick ‘uns?
No, I’d two sets of irons on.
R-No, I never had, I know some did do. Some had thick ‘uns.
Oh yes, like Colne Irons. I’ve got some Colne irons at home.
R- Last irons I had and t’last nails, I give ‘em to I give ‘em to this Billy Taylor ‘cause he said they’re bad to get now, rings, heel irons and that so what I had I give him ‘em and his wife said what you fetched them up here for, it’s time he chucked ‘em away.
I mean that was another thing about clogs wasn’t it, because you could do something about them yourself, you know, if you got a loose iron you just got into t’back yard with an hammer and nails and some pegs and you could soon sort your clogs out and it didn’t cost you much.
R-No.
So when you were at school, you’d be at school until you were ten years old, well you’d be at school till you were thirteen but did you go half-timing at ten?
R-I went half time at twelve.
At twelve, yes. And am I right in saying that before you could go half-timing you’d got to have a certificate to say that your education had reached a certain level and they wouldn’t let you go unless you’d got your certificate.
R-No. And then you’d to be of certain health, good health to go into t’mill then.
Yes. Who gave you a medical inspection?
R-A doctor frae Barlick.
Which one was that, do you remember his name?
R- No I don’t remember his name.
And where did he do that inspection?
R-In’t office at t’mill.
Aye, that’s the reason I asked you, it seemed to be the usual thing that it was actually done at the mill and like you didn’t go to his surgery and he didn’t come to your house, you went to the office at the mill and you were called in and what sort of an inspection did he give you, was it thorough or did he just sort of look at you….
R-Well he had a look at you and I don’t know, he had them theer, you know that he inspected your chest.
Stethoscope?
R-Aye, and he didn’t give you a proper eye test but he said like can you read that and that sort of thing. It were, they knew what they were doing, that you were going to pass ‘cause when you think about it there were lots managed to get in, they were half dead, they’d never had any good meals in their life.
Did you ever know anybody ever fail that exam?
R-No.
Never?
R-No.
I asked Billy Brooks about it and he said that all the doctor did he said Oh, he’s Jim Brook’s lad isn’t he? He’s all reight! And that was it, you know I mean there was no way he was going to knock him back because he knew the family and knew they needed the money. I mean do you think that’s the sort of thing that were going on, you know, they needed the hands in the mill, they needed the cheap labour and they knew the families needed the money.
R-That’s it aye. Aye that, I thought they wouldn’t refuse so many that wanted to come into t’mill. Course, there weren’t much else were there, only t’mill.
Mill and agriculture, that was about it wasn’t it.
R-Mmmm. And tem were poor wages in’t agriculture wasn’t they.
Yes. So when you left school you’d be able to read and write and do your arithmetic. And I mean basically, that ‘ud be about it wouldn’t it? Were you taught anything else at school other than reading writing and arithmetic?
R-well you used to get a bit of history but you’d to be interested in it if you fancied it. Then when you were twelve, if you showed any ambition, you got to go to t’woodwork. And I got to go to t’woodwork. We went to’t school and t’mill alternate you know.
Mornings one week and afternoons another.
R- Aye, and t’woodwork were Friday morning for us and down at New Road they’d no wood work there and they’d to come up to Alder Hill at afternoons.
You were at school at Alder Hill weren’t you.
R-Yes and alternate but him what I were learning to weave with he wanted you in every Saturday morning, it should have been alternate Saturday mornings off, you were half time. He wanted me in every Saturday morning and er, I didn’t go in one Saturday morning, we went playing football. And when I got home at dinnertime, eh, me father played heck. He said Mr Greenwood’s left his sweeping waiting of you coming in and then you hadn’t landed when t’mill stopped and he’d to start and do his sweeping. And I said well, I says lads said come on, go footballing I says, so I fancied it and er, he used to give me threepence a week, did him that was teaching me to weave, one of them threepenny bits and this weekend following the Saturday that I hadn’t been I didn’t get a threepenny bit #cause I hadn’t been in that Saturday morning.
So you’d go to the mill then to this feller Greenwood, what was his first name, can you remember?
R-William.
William Greenwood. He was a weaver. How many looms did he have?
R-Four.
Four. And you’d be like a weaver’s helper or a tenter, did they call ‘em.
R-Well, some on ‘em had six loom and then they had what they called a tenter. Running these two looms.
An how long were you with, and of course you weren’t paid by the firm, all you got was what he gave you.
R-That’s it, aye.
How long did that go on before they reckoned you were fit to go on some looms?
R-well, I were half time until I were thirteen and then I went full time. And I were going full time to this weaver quite a bit and his words were true what he told me, at Monday when I went in about not coming at Saturday. He says look, if tha wants to be a good weaver tha’ll hev to learn and he says tha can’t learn weaving up on a football field! And he says, more hours you put in here and t’better you’ll be. Gets thirteen and there were another lad, he were learning to weave and all and he were about thirteen and then a weaver give up, that were four loom and this other lad got two loom and I got two loom.
When you were thirteen? Which shed were that in, which shed?
R-B&W Hartley’s on’t New Road.
That’s Brook Shed.
R-Yes.
You were in Brook Shed. Were they the only tenants there or were there… Were they tenants or did they own the mill?
R-No they were tenants.
And were they the only tenants or were there other firms in the mill.
R-There would be.
So they’d have like what, 1200 loom?
R-400.
But there’d be more looms than that in Brook Shed ?
R-Oh aye. There’d be first ‘un 200 loom, second ‘un 200 loom so that were like a 400 loom place split up for two firms and then there’d be another, Pickles’s 400 loom, Bracewell’s 400 loom, and Thomas Henry’s 400 loom. Actually they were 400 loom sets.
When you say Thomas Henry’s, is that Hartley’s?
R-That were a Hartley, another Hartley, brother
Yes. So that were a 1200 loom shed [1600 actually] And t’Bracewell firm that were in there, who were that, C&G?
R-Bracewell?
Yes, the Bracewell firm.
R-What I worked wi’?
No, you were working for Hartley’s weren’t you.
R-Bracewell Hartley.
Oh I’m sorry, that was B&W Hartley?
R- B&W. W was his brother but he got out on it did his brother William.
That’s Bracewell and William Hartley and they had 400 looms in Brook Shed. 1921.
R-Sommat like that yes.
So then you’d go on to two looms, how much could you earn off two looms in 1921?
R-Well, like a pound happen. With a bit of luck and no breakages I think we could make about ten shilling a loom. It were a good firm to work for were that.
Aye, what were they weaving?
R-They were only weaving ordinaries.
Like printers.
R-Aye, printers, Burnley printers, then we went off plain ‘uns onto sateens But I think all t’sateens were going abroad, exporting.
And how long were you on two looms afire you got shoved up?
R-Two or there year.
So you’d be like 23 or 24 before you got on to four looms?
R-No I got four loom when I were sixteen.
Right. Oh no I’m sorry I had it wrong, I meant sixteen, never mind. So you’d do about three year on two looms and when you got to sixteen you’d got to four looms?
R-Aye.
And was that what most people had for a set?
R-Yes. At most o’t places. Where they had six looms they had a learner and when he got so as he could do a bit he were a mug I’ some of these what had six looms. They used to take it out of them, they had everything to do , go for t’weft and take pieces in while t’other feller’s sat down.
So in that shed you were working in at Bracewell Hartley’s they didn’t have cloth carriers?
R-No, pull your own pieces off.
Yes, and they didn’t have weft carriers?
R- No.
And if you had a smash, a trap, did you have any trap hands.
R-No, you’d to do it yourself.
So basically the only help you had was the tackler if you had a really really bad smash the tackler ‘ud come and see to it for you.
R-Aye, but it had to be a big ‘un before they’d, it had to screw up or owt of that. But it were just a silly do I thowt. I mean they used to say if you had a seam in a piece it cost a shilling. Well if you had a nasty smash, you were forced to have a seam so you might as well let ‘em screw it up as well as piecing ‘em all. And if you had like a heald trap wi’ a broken heald we’d have to pull back and all, well we could be an hour. Whereas if they’d have let it go, I don’t know why they med ‘em do all that, piecing ‘em and then there were seams at finish.
The thing that I could never understand when you look at the economics of it is that it always seemed to me that if you’ve a shed with a thousand looms it must pay to have a trap hand because while that weaver’s dealing with that trap they’re not weaving.
R-No, there’s nowt going on is there.
No production. You’d think that from the firm’s point of view it’d be worth it to have a trap hand wouldn’t you?
R-Definitely, yes.
Because when all’s said and done the name of the game is for the weaver to weave and if the weaver isn’t weaving, forget it there’s no money being made. That was something at Bancroft, I could never understand at Bancroft why, even with only 500 looms running, I reckon they could have supported a trap hand. Anyway, you’re working at Bracewell and William Hartley’s in Brook Shed, you’re sixteen years old, it’s 1924 and you’ve got four looms. You were a fair bloke then! What were you doing with the money?
R-Giving me mother it, got a penny in’t shilling spending money.
And what did you do with your spending money?
R-Well, a lot ‘ud laugh and smirk at yer, put it in’t bank! Used to put 6d in’t bank. Me brother, when t’time came, he never got put up into another class, poor scholar, but I’ll bet he could have led a lot of them teachers a dance after he’d left school for two year. And while we were going to school part, he’d say I’m putting mine in’t Co-op bank, we had to go to t’Yorkshire Penny you know, they’d come to t’school for your money at one time. I’m drawing out o’t Yorkshire Penny, I’m putting it in t’Co-op. They give yer ¾ % interest more nor t’Penny bank! Mind you, we’re only talking about playing about with sixpences. And then it comes again, he says I’m finishing wi’t Co-op, he says I’m going to Burnley Building Society, he says, and when you get a pound in you can go into a different account and you get better interest. And we wouldn’t have above £2 in all told! But couldn’t he weigh t’job up, and he could weigh things up better nor some o’t teachers after he’d left school. He were one o’ them late developers.
What was his name again? Melbourne?
R-Yes. And if you took gardening, he could leave a lot o’t head gardeners standing, names o’t flowers and plants….
We’ve moved on at a fair rate and one of the things I want to do is , I want to talk to you about some of the things you did for entertainment when you were a child.
OO/FI/1. (side two)
When you were at school, one of the things that interests me nowadays is the way people are over protective of their children. I don’t know whether you saw this silly thing the other day where they’ve decided it’s dangerous for them to play conkers in’t school yard and chase each other round, because they might hurt themselves. What sort of things can you remember doing, games and entertainment.
R-What, at playtime?
Any time.
R-Well, eh if we could come across a salmon tin or a fruit tin and some old rags we’d roll ‘em all up and mek a ball and play football while thing were done. Play cricket up t’back street and get played hell wi’ by t’neighbours. And then we used to do a thing that were very dangerous, no wonder t’neighbours played heck, we used to get a big nut , like off top of a picking shaft and then we got a piece of metal that went through t’cranks like as long as your finger. Then we used to get that er, there used to be some matches, they called ‘em red lights and green lights like, and we’d get some of these red lights and we used to break all’t , that inflammable stuff off, put it into t,nut , put this other thing on top, put it on a stone and then drop a big stone on it and it were like a gun going off.
Do you know, I used to do the same thing, them red and green matches you were talking about, we used to call ‘em Bengal Lights. You could buy boxes on ‘em and the phosphorous if you like, went half way down the stick and when you lit them it was like a big flare.
R-That’s it, mmmm.
Well what we used to do, we’d get a big nut and two bolts that just fitted it, and we used to screw it part way on and then fill the nut with match head or anything we could get hold of. Screw the other bolt in as tight as we could and throw it at a wall, they went of wi’ a hell of a crack!
R-Eeh, aye! It were dangerous, you didn’t know where they were going to fly to did you? And then there were, another thing we used to do, when t’lime kilns were going at Lothersdale, and they used to come down Stoneybank wi’ carts full of lime, there were nearly allus some dropping off.
And that ‘ud be quicklime.
R-It had been burnt and we used to get that and wi’ like dodging it, we daren’t let parents know, then we used to get a syrup tin, put some water on t’top on it, bang t’tin lid on firm and purrit in a dustbin. And then it weren’t long before blooming bin lid flew up in’t air (laughter) There weren’t many dustbins in those days but we found what there were! Oh it were powerful were that, t’gas off that lime.
No, you’re right. Did you ever use acetylene? You know, wi’ carbide.
R-No we didn’t do it wi’ that but what we did there were rock sulphur and sommat else we used to get ….
Well, rock sulphur, saltpetre and charcoal makes gunpowder.
R-Ah well rock…. Saltpetre and sommat else, we used to mix them. You could get it at t’chemist but you were getting it for your dad. If chemist knew he wouldn’t have supplied us you know. I were thinking about th’end house where we lived. They didn’t make the road in those days they just used to come wi’ them big stones and there were one or two nice flat uns what you could put your stuff on, eh it must have made ‘em jump when that happened, Bang! Then we’d to find t’nut! You could hev lamed yerself.
Well, a lot did didn’t they? How about going out and wandering about t’countryside and getting into mischief?
R-Well we didn’t really get into mischief but we used to go for long walks. And er, I don’t know what you called ‘em but there were one or two going down t’Fence End, like th’old road, going down t’Long Drag, there’s some bushes theer and they had some things, they were like a big gooseberry and they were full of claws and you could throw ‘em at a coat and they’d stick. Well we used to get these and coming back into Earby we’d see a woman all dressed up chucked three or four of these. Same as all them hooks like that, they’ve invented other things off ‘em now haven’t they.
Aye, stickybobs we used to call them and a teasel’s very much like that and a teasel’s what were used for cloth raising. But I’ll tell you something we used to do and by God it were cruel. You know rosehips? Hips and haws, if you break one of those open there’s like little seeds covered in hairs and if you put them down somebody’s back under their shirt you know their back comes out in a rash and it’s the worst itch there is. Did you ever do that?
R-(laughter) No! But we used to hev some stink bombs sometimes and go to t’pictures and send ‘em rolling down under the seats. Little glass…(laughter) eh, they did used to pong!
We used to make our own out of old cinema film. You very often found some behind the cinema near us and can you remember on the old valves on the old cars the valve caps were big things, they were about two inches long. Well we used pinch them off cars and if you rolled the film up tight and shoved it in. If you lit it at the end wi’ a match it’d flare until it got into the valve cap but then there wasn’t enough oxygen for it to burn properly and it just made smoke and oh it stunk. We used to make them, we must have been worse than you! How about dandelion sap, ever do anything with that? You know that white sap out of the stems?
R-Eh aye, put it on yer hand and eventually it ud go black. No they were happy days, we used to walk far enough, we allus had a dog. Mother used to say Are you going out, tek t’dog wi’ yer. Well everybody knew who they were because we hed a dog, generally a spaniel, if they saw yer doing owt you know, oh that’ll be’t Inmans, they hev a spaniel dog. We used ter go down t’beck, it used to love swimming and then occasionally like there were part voles, water voles well they’re all reight is them, they’re harmless enough but of course if the dog saw one it could catch it killed it. We allus felt sorry for ‘em if it hed been killed because they were harmless, it weren’t like a rat. Eh, and one time, there were a farm called t’Brown House, well, it’d be a good two mile, three mile happen.
Up near Black Lane Ends there? Up near Howshaw?
R-No, going down Elslack way.
Oh, that Brown House, yes.
R-And er, me father were a bit friendly wi’ these farmers. There were two fellers and two women like in’t family. None on ’em were wed. An er…
Can you remember their name?
R-Bancroft. And er, we’re coming up, we’d had a fair walk and we’re coming up and he must hev spotted me father must John [Bancroft] and he says, it were just coming on Christmas and he says Willta do a job for me? Father said what’s that? He said somebody’d ordered a goose and they’d never been for it, he says I wonder if you’d tek it up into Earby and tek it for ‘em. He says we haven’t time and he says You can fetch basket back any time when you’re walking down. And he [father] says Oh aye, I’ll tek it and t’lads’ll fetch t’basket back in’t morning. (laughter) We weren’t that old we’d to walk all t’way back to t’Brown House wi’ th’empty basket t’following morning but they were mekking mince pies and oh there were a grand smell. Would you like a mince pie straight out o’t oven? We had about five mince pies, it were worth going for then to tek the basket back. We used to go to West Marton and all, and there were an elderly couple theer and they wanted sommat frae t’chemist at Earby and it were Sunday when we were theer and Aye he says, school has holiday tomorrow, lad’s fetch it round for you so we’d to go to t’chemist and get this stuff and then walk to Marton. One o’ them where you couldn’t say to me dad we’re not going. There were no will you do, lad’s’ll tek it.
So you and Melbourne ud go together?
R-Yes.
How about blackberrying and bilberrying and stuff like that?
R- Oh we used to do that, go up on’t moors bilberrying. And er then at Thornton Rock, I don’t know why, but there were a lot of wild strawberries and we used to go theer and then they started tipping ash pit rubbish and I know we were round one time in the back end and oh there were bags of potatoes growing. They were happen t’skins that’d been thrown into t’dustbins and that we used to pull them up and fill us cap wi’ new potatoes and we liked that, all sorts, well they wouldn’t do it today, it wouldn’t be worth it.
Them wild strawberries are nice aren’t thy. Them little uns. And they seem to like lime you know. I know a place up at Settle where you could always find some and it were on the side of an old lime kiln and oh they were beautiful. If they sell them in restaurants you know they charge you a fortune for ‘em you know, wild strawberries.
R-But er, we never had to go near Thornton Rock, we could go down Fence End we could go all round about for t’walks but you’d to keep away from t’Rock. You might have fallen down and you were trespassing.
‘Cause o’t danger. Aye. Were it full of water then?
R-There were a lot of water in but you could go under t’tunnel into it you know. You hadn’t to climb down, we’ve gone many a time getting frog eggs and that, under t’tunnel and then getting ‘em.
What did you do wi’t frog spawn?
R-fetch it home and get some tadpoles.
How about bird nesting?
R-No, we didn’t go bird nesting. You hadn’t to do that, some o’t lads did, go up on’t moors and get seagull’s eggs.
Aye, Tewitt eggs.
R-No I’m glad to say we never did any damage like that, robbing t’nests.
What were’t names of some of your mates from school, can you remember them?
R-Well, I’d one, they called him Hayden Hargreaves and they lived up t’same street as us and we went mates ever since we could more or less walk. His birthday were in July and mine were in December. And er, then his father were a piano player and in them days they had ‘em at picture places for the silent films, well he must hev got a job at Nelson, they flit to Nelson and then they came back to Earby, well we were mates again and then I were his best man when he got wed and he were my best man when I got wed and we were friendly up to him dying. I think many a time I were daft if I’d threepence I’d give him twopence to buy a packet of Woodbines wi’ and that’s what killed him smoking, he did suffer. They took him into hospital in Keighley and I went down at night, eh he says, I knew tha’d come Fred. If tha’d hev come tomorrow tha’s hev been to late, he says I’m buggered, just like that and he says look at all them nurses he says! Eh, but no he says, I’m buggered. And by gum he were, he deed the night after. He could hardly talk and his chest were bad well, Morrison, I rung Morrison up, I said what’s up wi’ me mate, they tell me they’ve rushed him off to th’hospital. [Arthur Morrison was the local GP] He says he’s never emptied his clogs! I said what do you mean, he says he used to sup that much ale he had a hollow leg he says. It were filling his clogs wi’ ale he says, he’s getten cold. I said well he didn’t sup a lot at weekend because I were wi’ him, ah but he says you wouldn’t be stopping in’t pub as long as he did, he were one of them that passed out every time. He told me that went home at the Sunday night he started being badly, he went home and he said I started being badly and I knew there were a light across the road and they had a telephone in theer and he says I crawled on me hands and knees and knocked on that door and asked ‘em if they’d ring for’t doctor. He said I couldn’t stand up. He said I were poorly and t’doctor came and he says hospital straight way.
And that were Arthur were it? Arthur Morrison.
R-Yes.
He were my doctor until he died. [actually till he retired, he died about ten years later]
R-He were all reight were Arthur.
Oh aye, I had lot of time for Arthur, good man.
R-He could play hell wi’ em and he could play hell wi’ you.
I’ll tell you a story about Arthur. You remember when that Asian Flu were on, round about 1957 or something like that, and er I had that you know and oh my God I were poorly. I could just about crawl upstairs and that were all and I remember Arthur came to see me and he played hell wi’ me. He says you know what your trouble is, you‘ve never had anything wrong with you and now you’ve got flue you think you think it’s the end of the world. Stay in bed, drink plenty and take aspirin and he says stay there for w week, you’ll be all right, I’m not coming to see you again. Well, it must have been thirty years later, I called up at Windy Ridge up at Thornton there you know to see him and Kim his wife and I went into the kitchen and she was cooking something, she were doing something on the kitchen table and she says It’s no good coming to see Arthur, he’s in bed with flu. Oh I said, I’ll go and sick visit him, and I said do you mind, she says no, I’ll be pleased for anybody to go and see him he’s as miserable as sin. I says Oh, I’ll cheer him up and I went upstairs and I didn’t realise but she followed me up, she were stood behind the door. Anyway, I walked in and he’s laid in bed and oh God he looked miserable! He’s grey and sweating and coughing and bloody spluttering you know. I says Now then Arthur, what’s up, touch of flu? Oh God he says, I’m bad! I said you know what your trouble is don’t you, you’ve never had anything wrong with you and now you’ve a touch of flu you think it’s the end of the world. Drink plenty, take aspirin and stay in bed till you’re better. He sat up in bed, he was mad you know, he said Fat lot of good you are! I said that’s exactly what you told me thirty years ago when I had Asian Flu in 1958. I said you’ve got your own medicine back now and I’m going to go and have a cup of tea with Kim and then I’ll go. I walked out and Kim was behind the door, You’ve just done right she said.
R-Aye, I’ll bet he were a bad patient.
Oh he was terrible, Kim said he was the worst patient you could possibly have had and everything he had, if ever he had anything wrong w8th him he thought he were dying. (Laughter)
R-Well I once had some sciatic. Eh, I had some pain I were bloody bad and Morrison came up and he said I want to feel at your bed, I want you on a solid bed. I said it is solid. It were a new mattress which we’d getten. Aye he says It’s all right is that now get on your back and your legs as straight as a gun barrel and he says whatever you do, don’t lift it up or bend it, he says I’ll be round again in’t morning. He came again the day after and then in a bit there were another doctor he lived at t’crossings, he’s theer yet, he comes one time and he gets hold of me leg and he lifts it up and then he gets hold of t’other and he lifts it reight up here, now he says get that as heigh as that! I says Dr Morrison says I’ve to keep it straight, Oh yes he says I quite agree with that but you’ve got over the worst now you want a bit of exercise and he came did Morrison later on and he said I’m glad you’re doing as we’ve told you and you keep that up and you’ll never have that again as long as you live. But if you don’t cure it now you can have it repeating. I’d be in me sixties then and he’s coming down Stoneybank one day and he pulls up, he says How you going on? I says yer telled me a lie you know one time he says What did I say? I says you told me if I did everything you told me I wouldn’t have any repeat of that pain. He says and have you had? I says yes I have. He says now then Fred I’m going to tell you something , your eighty now aren’t you. I says Yes. He says you were only in your sixties then and he said just look round at people what you knew that’s all died before they were seventy. Well he says You’re getten past seventy, you’re ten year past it he says you want to weigh things up before you start talking. I thought you old bugger! (laughter)
How about childhood illnesses, can you remember anything wrong with you when you were a child?
R-Croup. Which, it left me wi’ a bad cough and er I were only in standard one and she were a bit of an hot-headed un were t’teacher and I know it be about half past eleven.
Standard one, you’d be about six. There were infants and then standard one weren’t there.
R-Seven. I were coughing and I couldn’t stop. Get outside Inman! Stand out at the door, coughing, no one can do anything for it. I went and stood outside o’t classroom door and in a bit, Mr Lindley were t’schoolmaster he says what’s to do Fred, have you been doing something wrong? I’ve been coughing I says and she’s sent me out o’t room ‘cause I were coughing. He says Oh, now then he says, go and get your coat and go home and tell your mother to give you some cough mixture and if you don’t feel any better don’t come back this afternoon. Anyway, I went back at afternoon and I felt a lot better. I thought I’ll bet he didn’t half round that teacher up, that Mr Lindley he were a reight honest schoolmaster. I’ll bet he rousted her.
Were he t’headmaster at Alder Hill?
R-Yes. I couldn’t help bloody coughing.
How about tonsillitis, anything like that?
R-No I never had tonsillitis.
Did you know anyone who had?
R-Aye, I think Hayden had it. Owt wi’ his throat or anything like that he always had a terrible do in wintertime. And it were all wi’ smoking.
And did, have you ever heard of anybody having their tonsils out at home?
R-Yes, it was a regular do, they didn’t go to t’hospital then and it were t’same wi’ er circumcision it were all done at home.
Can you remember anyone having diphtheria?
R-Yes. I think there were a building at t’side of Black Lane Ends pub, a bit lower down and it were like hospital, fever hospital.
Scarlet fever?
R-I can remember a cousin of mine having t’measles bad and when she started mending one of her eyes went crossed, skenning. You saw a lot of that once over, cross eyes, didn’t you.
Measles could be very dangerous then, I mean I’m not as old as you obviously, I’m thirty years younger than you but I can remember there used to be a yellow ambulance and we used to call it the Fever wagon. That were scarlet fever, scarletina, diphtheria, German measles. But there were a lot of things about like that then that you never hear of now.
R-No, these injections have more or less cured ‘em haven’t they.
Like rickets but they say rickets is coming back but there used to be people wi’ rickets you know, wi’ their legs bent. How about dentist?
R-went wi’ t’school, I got two filled one time.
Did you have a nurse come round to the school to have a look at you, to inspect you.
R-Yes. Used to say t’school dentist’s coming. I can remember as p[lain as owt when they were filling these teeth they had some chalk, white chalk and they broke ‘em in two and then thy put ‘em in your mouth to absorb moisture. And I know when they’d finished he says Did I hurt you and I said No. He says your telling a fib arenta? I am not I said, it didn’t bother me and you know he were grinding away and winding that bloody thing. There weren’t nowt electric then.
No, was it one he pedalled or did he have somebody winding it for him.
R-Oh he had somebody winding it aye. Then they got on to t’pedal didn’t they later on.
This ud be at school, he’d come to t’school to do it.
R-It were at school, well, they didn’t do ‘em in’t school actually they did ‘em in’t Liberal Club where the library is now and they had a room theer and it were like there were toilets and washbasins and all that if any were needed like and it were better accommodation than t’school in theer. And then t’school nurse used to come round looking in your head and ….
Aye, t’nit nurse. Aye. On the whole, looking back, did you enjoy your schooling?
R-No. I ‘ll be quite honest I didn’t because there were one teacher she knocked me off it. I were a decent scholar up to standard four and I don’t know, we were doing a composition or sommat and a word included window and I spelt it winder she put a red line under and she said write that out hundred times before you go home at four o’clock. Well naturally I writes winder again and then she says you stop in again at play time the following morning, you’ll stop in until you do do it properly. I’m stopping in again another afternoon after t’school and this were another teacher then, they called him Seed. He weren’t theer long and he says what are you doing and I told him and he says it shouldn’t be winder it should be window. I says well she’s never telled me he says well she’s here to teach not to punish you like that and I’ll bet she got t’tale telled to. Well she should have told me it were window and not winder. That there job with teaching and I finished wi’ writing.
That put you off at eleven year old, put you off.
R-Oh aye it did.
So you were glad when you went half timing?
R-Yes, I were glad when I went first time.
Let’s move forward a little bit then, you’re working at Bracewell and William Hartley’s at Brook Shed and you’ve got four looms. You were 16 so that’d be about 1924 or 25. What did you do, I know you said you saved your money, you were living at home, what did you do for entertainment of an evening or at weekend?
R-Well when it were wet you’d to stop in, you’d to look at a book, what you’d looked at many and many a time. You were off to bed at seven o’clock in winter time. And then me dad had a couple of allotments during t’war, we spent biggest part of our time on theer, weeding and that.
When you say during t’war, which war?
R-14/18 war.
How come your dad didn’t go to the war?
R-He were exempt ‘cause there were three tacklers where he worked and two on ‘em were called up into t’war and me dad were the only tackler left in’t mill so. There must have been another feller that were doing a bit of learning or sommat and him and me father run t’mill then till t’war finished.
Remind me again where he was working.
R-Hartley’s, B&W Hartley’s.
So he was working at Brook Shed as well. How long did you stay at Hartley’s at Brook Shed?
R-Oh I didn’t stay so long because me dad got a job at Birley’s, at Albion, he got half a set of looms and managing, like boss tackler sort of thing and half a set of looms. Then there were another half a set of looms and when them come to let I got to go on them.
As a tackler?
R-Wi’ me dad being t’next to it like.
And remind me again, I know it’s on the other tape, but your father’s name was Parkinson.
R-Yes.
So he was boss tackler at Albion for Birley’s and so you went from Hartley’s. Did you go there at the same time as him?
R-No, me dad were theer a bit afore I went.
What year did you go there do you think? You had four looms at sixteen.
R-Oh, I wasn’t much older, happen about 17 or 18.
That’d be fairly young to go on a half set wouldn’t it, like 17 or 18 year old.
R-Well I were only like apprentice with me dad having t’other half set.
When you say half set, how many looms in a set? For a tackler then.
R-Oh it’d be on for hundred.
So you and your dad between you ‘ud be looking after 100 loom. 25 weavers, they’d be four sets then wouldn’t they?
R-Four sets aye.
When did t’More Looms come in? How did it affect them really?
R-That were about 1930 weren’t it. Well, one weaver in three has to finish haven’t they. But it didn’t affect tacklers ‘cause they still had all t’loom,s to ‘em.
Yes, like they still had 100 loom sets.
R-Aye.
But the weavers went up from four loom sets to what, six?
R-Six. But er, it made a difference in one way, same as you went in’t four loom if you had a picking band broke or a finger leather they used to put ‘em on theirsel did the weaver. But when they get on to six loom they’d be, Will you put this picking band on, you know, if you were walking past, you got a lot more simple jobs to do ‘cause there were no doubt about it, it were a big jump for a lot o’ th’old weavers, from four to six.
They slowed the looms down didn’t they?
R-Just a bit aye.
Put bigger pulleys on ‘em.
R-Yes.
Newton’s told me that they got these jobs at about that time where they got hundreds and hundreds of loom pulleys to make for’t looms ‘cause obviously they had to make new fast and loose pulleys for ‘em. They didn’t change the pulleys on the shafting, they changed the pulleys on the loom, put bigger ones on to slow ‘em down a bit. Because it were part of the agreement with the union weren’t that if they went up to more looms they slowed down to less picks a minute. And then of course they’d to respace hadn’t they.
R-I know they put pulleys on but I’m not going to say whether th’engineer speeded th’engine up a bit.
[The tape ends here because Fred’s Meals on Wheels lady turned up with his dinner.]
SCG/15 December 2000
10301 words.
