TAPE 78/SA/01
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 1st OF NOVEMBER 1978 AT THE HOUSE OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
When I revisited this transcript after an interval of 25 years I was surprised by the amount of talking I had done during the interview. On reading it through I realised why but this might not be immediately obvious to the researcher in the future. I was very nervous and intimidated by the fact that I was interviewing a very formidable and precise man. He didn’t know me and what I was doing was establishing my credentials with him. As far as he was concerned I was the soon-to-be redundant engineer from Bancroft Shed and rightly or wrongly I felt I had to establish myself in his mind as someone who had seriously addressed the matters we were talking about. So I apologise for the amount of SG but ask for understanding. Effective interviewing depends largely on empathy and I’ll admit that I might have over-egged the pudding here.
George Forrester Singleton at his home in St Anns on Sea
Now then Mr Singleton, what's your full name?
R - George Forrester Singleton.
That’s a fine name. Is it a family name, Forrester?
R – Yes. It was my mother's maiden name.
And what year were you born?
R - 1889.
1889?
R - November 30th,
November 30th, 1889. That’s the same year that the Calf Hall Shed Company were formed in Barlick and you have lasted longer than them! What was your father's name?
R - Robert Thompson Singleton.
And where was he born?
R - In Darwen.
In Darwen. And what was his job?
R- Textile machinery merchant and Mill Furnisher.
Aye. Did he have anything to do with India Mill do you know?
No, but his father did.
So what was his father's job, your grandfather?
(100)
R- His father, that's my grandfather was Thomas Singleton who was born in 1830 and was brought up in the cotton trade in various capacities and he was of an inventive turn of mind.
Was that in Darwen as well?
R- In Darwen yes. And the mill, India Mill was built I think 1864 to 1868 and there was an exhibition there when they opened it. And he had a patent on view on that occasion. Now I shouldn't have known but I was making the valuation of a mill at Radcliffe many years ago, and the proprietor said to me are you related to Thomas Singleton? I said yes and so he told me that he remembered the exhibition and that my grandfather had exhibited one of his patents there. So now then, where do you want me to go from here?
Oh you are right. Your mother, what was her full name?
(5 min)
R- Emma Forrester.
Do you know where was she born?
R – Manchester.
(150)
Do you know whereabouts in Manchester?
R- Lower Broughton.
Aye. And what year was she born? Have you any idea? Roughly?
R- 1859.
1859. Aye, that’d. be a busy place then, Lower Broughton in Manchester in 1859. And how did she come to meet your father?
R- Well, her father was an engineer and trained at W&C Mather’s of Manchester.
Would that be the original firm of Mather’s & Platt?
(200)
R- Yes. And he married the eldest daughter of one John Sedgwick who was a master tailor in Lower Broughton and his wife died of consumption about four or five years after their marriage and she left three children, the eldest was my mother and she was brought up by her grandparents. She had an aunt who was eight years older than her and she was one of the first scholars at Westminster College in London which was a training college for teachers set up following the Education Act of 1870. Her father died and her course was shortened and she took an appointment at Hapton at Hapton Wesleyan Day School which was associated with the Sunday School. She was there several years and she got the appointment of the Head of the Infant School at Darwen School. So she came to Darwen with her niece, my mother, and also her mother and so they [George’s father and mother] were both members of Railway Road Wesleyan Methodist Church and got to know each other that way.
(10 min)
That's it, yes. Now when your mother came to Darwen, you say she was eight years younger than her aunt, she'd be, what age would she be then? Have you any idea?
R- 22 or 23 I think.
(250)
Yes. And what age was she when she married your father?
R- 29.
29. Yes, Which were slightly late to be marrying even then, wouldn’t it, but not a lot.
R- Not a lot
And how many children were there in your family? Did you have any brothers and sisters?
R- Yes. There were six. Four boys and two girls.
Yes. And was that six confinements or did some not survive?
R- No. they all survived,
So there were six confinements and six children, do you understand what I mean?
R- Yes I do.
You know, some people in those days, I mean there was one case I recorded recently, eleven confinements and three children.
R- Yes, quite.
Because, 1 mean things were really bad. Andy and whereabouts did you come in the family Mr Singleton?
R- The eldest.
You were the eldest, you were the first born. And what were the names of your brothers and sisters, which order did they come in?
R- Well, do you want the names in detail?
Yes please.
R - Well the next one’s Emily Hilda, another sister Elizabeth Marion, then a brother Fletcher Norman, another brother Robert Allan and the last Carl Sedgwick. And each one had a family name, a family Christian name.
(300)
Yes, they are some fine names, they are. People had a lot more imagination in the names then than they have now. That's something, that comes out in these tapes quite a lot. People seemed to use their imagination a lot more in naming the children in those days than they do now. And so your father's married your mother and he is working in Darwen as Mill Furnisher. Now then you were born in 1889 ...
R- Yes.
So you’d be going to school until you were what age?
R- Going where?
To school, what age were you when you started half time, did you start half time?
R- No I didn’t no. What happened was this, that ten years after I was born or nine and a half years, my father and mother decided to remove to the coast on the advice of the doctor because my mother’s health was not good at the time. And we came to live in St Annes which was then only a small village, 1899. Andy oh, I should have said, before leaving Darwen I attended Miss Hick's School, by this time she had a private school and she died in 1898. Then I went to [what was then] then Darwen Higher Grade School which had been formed two years before and now it’s the Darwen Grammar School. And I was there about just over
(350)
twelve months and then we moved to St Annes.
What year did you come to St Annes Mr Singleton?
R- 1899. And I attended Kildrummel School as it was then. But at that time there were seven or eight boy’s schools and three girl’s schools because St Annes was considered to be a very desirable place from a health point of view. And then because of industrial development more attention was given to education than had been in the generation previously. Andy then I left school at 16 and got a post as an office boy at the Park Place Spinning Company Limited, Blackburn.
(15 min)
At that time, to be at school, in education until you were 16, it would be quite exceptional wouldn’t it? You understand what I mean, most people left school…
R- At 14.
So I mean, when I say exceptional, let’s put it this way, that for every hundred boys of your age in Lancashire you found, that probably you are the only one that would exceed the statutory age for education. You were one of the, favoured ones in some ways.
R – Yes. I think there was a larger proportion than one per cent but you see my parents put some store on education, having been in the education world.
That's it, yes.
(400)
R- And naturally they wanted the children to receive the best education. And 16 was considered the appropriate time to leave fort the professions and industry.
Now what would you say, looking back what would you say your parents had in mind for you as a career? Would you say that they had any definite views in their minds as to what would be a suitable career for you when you left school at 16?
R- Well I would say to enter the cotton trade which was then the trade which provided most opportunities for boys. You see, the cotton trade, or its development in Lancashire is something of a romance and at that time the belief in the cotton trade was that it was, it would go on and on and develop and expand every ten years or so. And everybody expected that it would have developed and continued. It only got a shock in the 1914 war which was the watershed.
Yes. Because of course, the period we are speaking. About when you left school, at that time cotton exports were 45% of the total exports of the country, weren't they?
R- That’s right, I left school in 1906.
Yes. That's it aye. Yes well that were just about, you were just coming up to the peak then weren't they? Of the India export, all the rest of it, and they thought it was going to last for ever.
(450)
R- That's true, that was the general opinion because it had, in spite of all it’s set backs, periodical set backs, it seemed to come up and expand again. Up and expanded you see? Until 1914.
Yes, but I meant look there, even after the Great War, 1919 to 1920 was the biggest boom textiles ever had. I meant you know yourself that there were firms in Oldham and Bolton paying dividends of 45% and if you look in Oldham and Bolton, round the spinning mills there, there were a lot of big mills, really big mills, 100,000 spindle mills built and commissioned in l920 and 1921 just as the trade cracked.
R- No, no. Now I can tell you with, there were a few but there were not many built after 1919. One or two in Bolton, there was one at Royton.
Elk.
R- The Elk in 1926 and we do their work.
Yes. Oh, what was that fellow's name? They all said he were crackers. When everybody else was shutting down he was building mills. Colonel, not Bradshaw. Earnshaw? [Tommy E Gartside actually. Elk Mill at Royton was commenced in 1926 and completed in 1927. Holding 107, 240 mule spindles it cost approximately £250,000 and was the last mule spinning mill to be built in Lancashire. The locals called it ‘Tommy’s Folly’. {source: The Shiloh Story. 1974.]
R- Oh dear! Yes, you are quite right. He was a great man, and I knew him, I knew him.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. [See original transcript for long SG speech which is nothing to do with the Singleton evidence! SG and George Singleton get into a conversation about dog shit and the tanning industry….]
So you moved, the family moved across to Blackburn.
R- Yes.
Now what year was that Mr Singleton?
R- 1906.
1906. You'd left school. Yes, so you didn't go to school in Blackburn. So, obviously when you got there you'd be looking out for a job, or your father’d be looking out for a job. That’s it, yes.
R- I have got a job to go to. And I started and I travelled for about a couple of months before we moved. I got this job in the Park Place Spinning Company as I said, as an office boy at five shillings a week. Now, five shillings a week was the standard rate, but it was related to what was an ordinary wage in textiles.
(600)
The ordinary wage would be from a pound to 25 shillings. There were some foremen who got 30 shillings but 25 shillings was considered a living wage in 1906 and so your five shillings was roughly a quarter or a fifth you see. And then you’d build up. You got a rise of a shilling a year for about five years.
Now then, one point in particular there. I have been trying to find this out for a terribly long time and I've not found anybody who can tell me. I think you might be able to clear something up for me. Now, your duties as an office boy, would it include copying letters?
(25 min)
R- Yes.
When we talk about copying letters, can you tell me how you copied letters in those days?
R- We had what was known as a letter book composed of fine, I’ll call it tissue paper. Well it was stronger than tissue but it was fine paper.
Yes, I know what you mean.
R- The letter was handwritten in a special kind of ink, copying ink.
Now, I must just interrupt you there. Was that ink used in a pen or was it used in the form of a pencil? [There were copying ink pencils as well.]
R- Pen.
Pen, yes. And did you write on the tissue?
R - No we wrote on the ordinary letter.
Yes, now, that book, was it made up of one leaf of tissue and one leaf of letter.
R- No. Those were a later introduction. Yes, and there may have been six letters to go out that night you see? So these six letters would be put in a blank leaf in the letter copying book you see? The page would be wet.
The tissue?
R- The tissue would be wet and then there’d have been a hard piece of material. I forget what, what it's like.
(650)
Compressed cardboard or ebonite?
R- Well no, it wasn’t cardboard, it was something that wouldn’t absorb water. But anyway it wasn’t metal but it was like a sheet of tin or that construction, but it was some composition.
Yes like ebonite or something like that, yes.
R- Yes, it was before ebonite was really, ebonite was of later origin. Then we took this book with these six letters interleaved and put it under a copying press. You screwed the top you see? And then after a pause, about a minute, you returned it you see? And then you took the book out, took the pages out and put them on the table to dry before putting back, the original letter was wet by this time you see. And then you put it in an envelope for postage. That was my job.
Yes, that's it. This is something I've been trying to get hold of for a bit and even printers couldn’t tell me this. Now then, after that they brought out a new thing didn't they? They brought out a book which was essentially a book of two leaves, there was a leaf of tissue, and then a leaf of ordinary paper. A leaf of tissue, a leaf of ordinary paper.
R- Yes, interleaved.
That’s it. Now can you explain to me how that was used for writing. letters?
R- Yes. There was a piece of carbon put in between and the carbon was one sided, loose, and the other side had not been treated. So that the not been treated side was on the top you see so that you had the copy. The original was the top copy which you wrote with a pointed pencil. You see? A pen wasn't strong enough to get it through. That's where your pencil comes.
Yes. Now just one thing, which one did you write on, the tissue or the paper?
R- You wrote on the paper.
You wrote on the paper. Yes.
R- And the carbon coloured side was on the tissue and as you wrote it copied on to the tissues
(700)
Yes. Now then, was that tissue so thin that after a letter book had been stood for a while, I mean I don’t know what the period of time would be because the letter books that I have, they are all about 80 or 90 years old. Did the carbon work its way through the tissues so that it was, you’d a job to tell whether the carbon had gone through from the back of the tissue or the front?
(30 min)
R- Well, that depended to a certain extent on the quality of the carbon you see? You had various degrees and you had some that bled quickly and others that didn’t you see. That was largely the quality of the carbon and also the pressure put on by the pencil.
[25 years later this explanation is still unclear. I have a better understanding now from various sources and whilst George is absolutely correct in what he describes he doesn’t clearly explain one method of making copies which I now know was standard around 1900. Possibly methods had improved and carbon papers were becoming more common when George started work in the office. The earlier method was this: there was a special type of pencil called a ‘copying pencil’. The ‘lead’ in these pencils was soluble in water and resulted in a bright violet mark when wetted, in effect, the core was a solid ink. When you wrote a letter by hand with this pencil, laid a sheet of tissue over the top, placed a damp sheet of paper over the tissue and applied pressure the water passing through the tissue released the ink and it transferred to the underside of the tissue. The tissue was thin enough for this to be read from the upper side. I think that typewriter ribbons were developed using this ink and these were used as well but all the letters I have seen using this method were handwritten.]
And in those days you’d go out, your last job at night would be posting the day’s mail?
R- It was.
And if you posted a letter in Blackburn - what time did you finish at night? Normally?
R- Half past five.
Yes. And so if you posted a letter, let’s say at half past five or six o'clock in Blackburn, what sort of possibility was there of that letter being in, say Manchester the following morning?
R- It was a dead cert to get there. The last post left, the post office was open till eight o'clock. And, you could, if you were late, you could, by going round to the sorting office at the back of the post office, and paying an extra ha’penny you’d get it posted and it was delivered the following morning. But I’ll tell you, arising when I went to this mill in 1906, there was a local carrier who had a horse, a small horse, and a flat on two wheels. Do you know what a flat is?
Yes.
(750)
R- And he was paid five shillings for taking two skips to Manchester overnight. From Blackburn to Manchester. Now it was the custom for the spinner to pay for [the carriage of] yarn to Manchester. There were certain customs in the trade, I'm almost sure that was one, because we paid, I remember it, I mean from petty cash, paying this man five shillings and getting a receipt from him you see.
Five shillings.
R- One horse, one man, he’d go the old Roman Road to Manchester.
You are quite right, things have changed. That’s one of the things that strikes me about these old letter books. You read them and, not from Blackburn, from Barnoldswick, this fellow used to put the time he wrote the letter on sometimes and I have letters that he wrote last thing at night to people in Manchester telling them that he was going to meet them on the following morning. And obviously he had complete faith that that letter was going to be on that man’s desk in Manchester at probably half past eight the following morning which is something that nowadays is just, well, you can’t rely on it to that extent.
R- Oh no, I’ll tell you another thing, there was a Sunday morning post in those days. So if you wrote a letter on Saturday at night it was delivered on Sunday morning. That was given up about 1914. I’m sorry really because on the whole, the way things have developed you want a bit of a change. But the post office, well they did give us service in those days.
[This point, though small, is an indicator of how highly organised the infrastructure was which supported the textile industry. It was incredibly efficient and was a factor in the speed the industry could react to trading situations. In turn, this meant that competition was encouraged and profit margins kept very low. This system worked well in times of full production but became a handicap when volumes fell and the customary low profits were offset by individual orders having to carry a higher proportion of fixed costs. In the years of decline this was a very important factor.]
Now, what other duties did you have as an office boy, what were your other duties? Obviously you’d have other things to do than just copy letters.
R- I made out the delivery sheets. The weights of the skips [skips were the tapered baskets used to transport yarn from the spinning mills. They were tapered so that they would fit inside each other for return carriage. They were developed when mule yarn was on paste or paper bottoms so there was no return traffic. When returnable pirns became common the industry moved on to wooden packing cases but skips were still in use into the 1960s to my knowledge. The Workshops for the Blind on Todmorden Road in Burnley specialised in the repair of skips.] gross, tare and net were sent up from the warehouse after they had been delivered and we had to transfer these to an invoice according to the terms of the contract and make the invoice out and send them off by post that night.
Who looked after the stamp book?
R- I did.
I thought perhaps you might. Was it ever wrong?
R- Well, I don’t recall but I know this, we were responsible for it, we had to account for every stamp.
So, in other words, if that stamp book was wrong, that was your wage.
R- Oh yes. But I don't recall that. But in those days, oh yes, responsibility, people were responsible for their actions. Not as it is today when every excuse is found for a mistake.
And from the office, when you took the job as office boy at Park Place Spinning Company, obviously you wouldn’t think of being an office boy all the days of your life. When you took that job as office boy, what did you envisage it leading you on to?
(35 min)
R- I wanted to make progress and as a matter of fact, occasionally I went to the mill at six o’clock in the morning to learn about the processes. On my own you see, so that I should know more about it.
Was that the management’s idea or was that your own idea?
R- That was my idea. Oh yes, I’d got my back to the wall. I just started from scratch. And you have to have a little ambition. Anyhow, that’s what I did. And the following September we came to, in those days people moved on what was known as the rent days. Twelfth of May and twelfth of September, but the annual move was on the twelfth of May. Now I’ll tell you something which is very important now. In those days there were houses to let throughout the length and breadth of the land. If you got a job in Halifax you could go and certain find a house to rent for yourself and your family. Now that was due to private enterprise. But I don't care for the word private, it was really enterprise in supply and demand. People built mills and they built houses.
It was profitable to fulfil a need. Yes.
(850)
R- To fulfil a need, yes. Now then, they found the money and had it. Now when I entered the profession in 1912, as a valuer, auctioneer, but I was doing the valuation work, I can tell you that landlords of houses were satisfied with a 5% return on their money and landlords of land were satisfied with the return of 4% on land. This is forgotten and the whole root of trouble of the housing for 50 years is due to the fact that no political party has had the courage to remove the Rent Restriction Act, that's upset the whole course of the housing and that is at the root of the trouble. I am not the only one who believes that in the profession. But you see no political party at the moment has had the courage to do it, because they’re afraid of losing votes. But there will be no solution of the housing problem until there is a free market, in my opinion.
Well surely that’s true of a lot of other things as well. I just threw a phrase in there about it being profitable to fulfil a need. That’s it in a nut shell isn’t it?
R- Of course it is.
Because, if there's a need for something there's no need for any other body or government body, or anything like that to step in, as long as there's a fair profit to be made in fulfilling that need. But as soon as controls are imposed which make it unprofitable to fulfil that need, well then, it’s just fairy land to expect people to put private capital into such ventures.
R- Exactly.
That's one of the things that’s wrong with this country nowadays. I mean, you know yourself that even the parts of industry now which are the bread and butter… Well, for instance, Tom Clarke, Silentnight started off after the war with his gratuity. Him and his wife made bed springs up into mattresses in the back yard and in the kitchen. And it went on and Silentnight became one of the biggest names in the world in bedding and upholstery. I said to him the other day, “Tom, looking back, was there a point where you can say now with hindsight that that was when you should have stopped?”
(900)
He said “Yes. Definitely. But I couldn’t. I had set out to be the biggest” That’s what I like about Tom, he’s honest. He said “I wanted to carry on and be the biggest but once you get to a certain size you start to run into problems which are connected with size and which start to cut down your profit margins. You’ve got to make do with very small profits.” Added to that is the fact that over the last five years control of profit and taxation has meant that in actual fact it isn't profitable for him to work for himself any more. What they have had to do is what so many other firms have had to do, they have had to go with the tax system and form holding companies which in other words means that he hasn’t got personal control now. He has told his sons that when he first started the thing to do was to work like hell and make a way for yourself in life but now his advice is look after yourselves and get as much as you can out of the system. He says that this works for him, he is very comfortable, but it’s no good for the country.
(40 min)
At that time we were sat in his new offices at Salterforth and he said “Look at this lot.” It’s an old cotton mill which they have converted, Slater’s of Salterforth, Salterforth Mill. He said “Do you know, this didn't cost us a ha'penny. It all came out of tax, and it's wrong. We shouldn’t be able to get something like this. This place is absolutely useless, it doesn't make any money for anybody. We were far better off when we had a suite of offices down at Moss Shed because that place was working like hell. But it’s a tax advantage which we can’t afford to ignore. There are certain advantages in having it like this but we wouldn’t have done it if we couldn’t have had that money which meant we could do it for virtually nothing. The principle is wrong.” There are so many things like that nowadays and that’s one of the reasons why it is so important to come and interview people like you because apart from the fact that people are forgetting weaving, forgetting about tinsmithing and how to make riveted vessels and things like that we are gradually losing sight of the fact that in order to make any business a sensible proposition we’ve got to have what is a dirty word nowadays, we’ve got to have a profit in it for somebody. And anyone that argues against that, all you have to do is ask them one question; “If they weren’t paying a decent wage, would you go to work?” And of course they wouldn’t, not until they were hungry.
R- That’s it.
One of the things that is coming out with Mary and me doing these tapes is that we hear a lot of people talking about the reasons for the decline of the Lancashire Textile Industry, the weaving in particular. As far as weaving’s concerned, the biggest reason for the decline is nothing at all to do with the markets and it’s nothing to do with re-investment or anything like that. The biggest single factor I’m sure, and I know I’m on dangerous ground here because I am drawing conclusions, is that people aren’t hungry any more and if you want a good Lancashire loom weaver they’ve got to be hungry. They have to keep things going and people aren’t like that any more. These things are being forgotten Mr Singleton.
R- Not only are they being forgotten, but deliberately being put under the ground to suit certain politicians. It’s a crying shame and I think eventually the natural order will prevail. Like King Canute, he couldn’t control the waves and eventually….
The bill will have to be paid.
R- We will be like some of the empires of old, vanished. But one point I’d like to make, again, returning to the question of housing, before the welfare system introduced by Lloyd George, not the Socialists, operatives in Lancashire in particular were thrifty and their aim and object was to save sufficient to buy their own cottage and the one next door so that they had an income on retirement. Now the rents in those days, the poorest were about 4/6 and up to 8/6 a week including rates. Now for 8/6 you could get a three bedroomed cottage, 4/6 was the old-fashioned sort with only just piped water and a closet in the yard, no water, the dry pail system. I remember the water carriage system being introduced in my time. Now many of the houses which were subject to rent restriction were those which belonged to these people who were operatives. They weren’t bad landlords, they were good landlords, they had got to live peaceably with the people who lived next door. Oh it’s a crying shame, it is really.
And that’s one of the reasons why, I think I’m right in saying that to this day, Nelson has one of the highest proportions of owner-occupied houses in the country.
R- I’m not surprised.
Resulting from that system.
R- Yes.
SCG/22 May 2003
5,440 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/02
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 10th of JANUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
Now, Mr Singleton, this morning we are going to look at your very earliest memories. So in fact it's more of a social tape than a tape about your working life. So if we start in the household. One or two of those things you may have told us in your first tape but that doesn't matter. How old are you?
R- 89.
When were you born?
R - 30th November 1889.
And where?
R- At Darwen.
Can you remember the street?
R - Yes. 41 Belgrave Road.
41 Belgrave Road, Darwen. Can you remember how many years you lived in that house?
R – Yes, nine and a half.
And how many other houses can you remember living in while you were young?
(50)
R - Oh, one other. Because when I was nine and a half, my father, owing to my mother’s health, came to live to St Annes and he brought his family of six, and we lived here until I was 16 when I was ready to go to work. In fact I had got a job at a cotton mill in Blackburn, so the family removed to Blackburn in 1906.
For you to be able to start the work there?
R- That’s right.
And so you moved to St Annes in the first place because of the health features of a coastal town.
R- Yes.
Where was your father born?
R- At Darwen.
Same place. And your mother?
R- Broughton, Manchester.
And you say you were one of six?
R- Yes.
How many brothers and sisters did you have?
R- Two sisters, and three brothers.
And whereabouts did you come?
R- The eldest.
The eldest. Did any of your brothers and sisters die as children?
R- No.
You were a healthy lot.
(100)
R- Very healthy lot. As a matter of fact my two sisters are alive. One 87 and the other 86. And my youngest brother is 81. I have two brothers who died in their seventies.
I think it’s called longevity isn’t it.
R- Longevity, that’s right.
While you were young, can you remember any of your relatives living in the same house?
R- Yes, my mother’s aunt who was eight years older than her grandmother. She died in 1894 or 1892.
It doesn’t really matter.
R- And so in early days we had two extra living with us you see. My great grandmother died in 1894 and my mother’s aunt died in 1898.
So she would be quite young in fact. Would she?
R- She was 46.
Can you remember what from?
(150)
R- Cancer, and in those days there was no cure. But there isn’t a cure now. But there was very little relief and I can remember she suffered agony.
She was at home most of the time and she wasn’t hospitalised?
R- Oh no. Oh never thought of that you see, not for that complaint. Now, to relieve pain they gave her brandy and champagne.
Really?
R- Yes, there were no drugs as we understand them. In other words, alcohol in one form or another to relieve the pain. Oh the agony was terrific, I can remember.
So in fact you had two extra people only really while you were young.
R- That’s all.
Yes. Until you moved here?
R- No, none here.
None here. And did you ever have lodgers? Not even perhaps during the first world war?
R – No.
Can you remember what your father’s job was when you were born?
(200)
R- Yes. Textile machinery merchant and mill furnisher. It was connected with the textile trade, of course.
And did he remain with that job or did he have a change?
R- No, he was in business on his own account.
How old was he when he died?
R- 88.
So you’d be well grown up by then.
R- I’m just leaving him you know. Yes, he was about two months short of eighty nine. So I have just beaten him.
You have haven’t you? What was your mother’s job before she married?
R- Teacher. School mistress.
And did she continue with that work after she was married do you know? She stopped once she was married yes, and did she go back to teaching after?
R- No. No, she’d a family in quick succession you see?
And even after you were grown up?
R- No.
So she didn’t have any other sort of a job, part time or work in the home or anything like that?
R- No. She had plenty to do bringing up a family of six you see?
Of course, yes. How old was she when she died?
R- 80.
So it comes from both sides, this long life doesn’t it.
R- It does.
And did any of your brothers and sisters leave St Annes or even Blackburn after they had left school, for jobs? I think we must count Blackburn as your base probably.
(250)
R- Yes, Blackburn is the base now. Well, in that space of years you see.
Did they leave to go to a job, or did they all get jobs locally?
R- Well, it’s difficult to say for this reason. Well now, take my oldest sister, she went to a teacher’s training college, she came back to Blackburn, taught in a local school and then she got a job with another education authority and left home for a few years and then she came back again to help mother and start up on her own account. She commenced a private school, Westholme School, which is now a Trust and has 600 scholars.
So it’s still running to this day.
R- Yes. Then my younger sister stayed at home to help my mother for a number of years and then entered the nursing profession. Therefore she was away from home and has been away ever since.
So after she qualified she stayed away.
R- She stayed away. My next brother, he got a job locally and then joined the forces in 1914. You see there was only eight years between coming to Blackburn and the war starting. Well, in those eight years they were only young you see. So then he joined the forces. My next brother worked in an ironmonger’s shop, he4 joined the forces. My youngest brother was an industrial chemist and he got a job in Manchester and then joined the forces. So that we might say eventually all three were away from home.
And the brothers that joined the forces, after the war did they come back to B1ackburn?
R- Yes. We all got through with our lives. One brother was wounded, another was gassed, and two suffered from fatigue including myself. I was invalided from France with appendicitis and had an operation in London but I was left with a thrombosis. I’m very fortunate because I had a clot of blood in my lung which I coughed up and my life since then has been a bonus I always say. When I was discharged the surgeon told me that I would never have a nearer squeak in my life and I was to forget it and get back into civilian life which I have done. Right, now then, I have accounted for my sisters. My next brother took a course in schooling and he got a post at Woodhouse Grove School near Leeds. He became a housemaster but he wanted to get married and he found that with entering the profession late he was on a low scale so he resigned. He had various posts in commerce and eventually acquired a non-ferrous foundry which he ran successfully until someone wanted his business and he sold out and retired. The next brother decided to go to Australia after three years in England and he died there in 1972. My youngest brother found things difficult after the war and as I had decided to set up in practice on my own account, in 1922 I engaged him and trained him in my profession as a valuer of mills and works.
(400)(15 min)
And he remained with you did he?
R- No, he retired some years ago.
He stayed in the profession then?
R- Oh he stayed, yes. He stayed in the profession.
Well, let’s move on to more details about the actual physical details of your house, and housing at the time, or what you can remember. Which is the house you can remember best of your child hood?
R - I can remember them both extremely well. I've, if I may say so, I've got a very vivid memory of my early days.
Well. it seems so yes. You have indeed. Well, perhaps we’ll take the first one first then. Well, in Darwen first of all. Can you remember how many bedrooms that had?
(450)
R - Three and an attic.
And was the attic used as a bedroom?
R - Oh yes.
Yes, yes. And what other rooms were there? Just the usual ones or anything?
R - The front room, the dining room, the kitchen and a basement wash house. Then one bedroom had been converted into a bathroom and there was an outside toilet as was customary in those days.
Was it a water closet or a dry one?
R - Yes. Water. Well, this is a rather interesting question, because it was, but the next row of houses bad pail closets and it was in the very early days changed, but it was nothing like the convenient toilets we have today. It was rather primitive water carriage, I don't know whether you have seen them. There was a kind of an open channel drain, constantly running you see, right down the streets and of course each house had its own privy as they call them, or toilet and that's it.
Was this an open channel?
R- Well, it was a sunken, it was an underground channel, below ground channel you see? And then later on they were converted to the present system you see?
You mentioned the word pail, was it a pail closet you mentioned?
R - Yes.
What was one of those?
R- Well, before the water carriage system, which was introduced in this country possibly 1892, 1900, the excreta was collected in pails, iron pails and the toilet was at the back wall of the yard, and the night soil department as they called them, they came along, and there were two men, a horse and a tank cart, and they emptied these pails, you see. One after the other.
(20 min)
Can you remember how often?
R- I can't remember how often, but it must, I would think once a week. But I’m not sure about that. Because of the, you see they had a limited number of these men and, they'd have sufficient to attend to what was required. It wasn’t exactly a pleasant place to wait in. No you see, people today, they have no idea of the vast improvements in a single life time, you see? And they tend to judge situations by the present standard, which is not correct. Anyhow, carry on.
(550)
The house here, was it fairly similar to the house at Darwen?
R- As far as capacity yes. I think we had an extra bedroom, just a minute ... Yes we had no cellars at St Annes. Five bedrooms ... a bathroom, separate WC, front room, . dining room, kitchen, larder, wash-house.
So it was quite a bit bigger in one respect.
R- Yes, not a great lot, but it, fitted in.
In Darwen, can you remember anything about, anything special about the furniture you had there?
R - Yes. The front room furniture was supplied by my mother’s aunt and her mother, you know?
Who were living with you, yes.
R – Yes, who were living with us, you see. We had a sofa which was upholstered in horse hair. And when the, as the seat, the upholstery got worn, the sharp horse hair came through.
You didn't use the word parlour for any of your rooms, did you?
R - No. no, although parlour was a term in frequent use. But it more often referred to the front room in a cottage house.
(600)
Yes. Where people would sit in their recreation time. Yes.
R - That’s right.
Did you eat in the dining room?
R- Yes. Well, breakfast in the kitchen. Main meals in the. dining room.
It wasn't just for Sundays?
R- On account of the sizes you see, we couldn’t all get in the kitchen.
Your mother obviously did the washing in the basement.
R - Yes.
And was it a fairly common thing for people to have a separate room for washing then?
R- In a family house yes but not in the industrial cottages. But in a family house yes. and we had a maid who helped.
How did she heat the water for that?
R - With a fire.
You had a boiler or something like that?
R - We had a boiler yes.
Now you mentioned that you did have a bathroom. Now presumably that was quite rare then was it?
(25 min)
R - Yes. yes. The bathrooms came with a rise in status of the able people in industry. Put it this way. Those who had worked through the mill become foremen, managers, salesmen and the like. As salaries increased, so they sought slightly better accommodation and this led to bathrooms etcetera.
Now you said, you mentioned that you had the lavatory outside. The water closet outside and you've told me about that earlier. Did the house have piped water then?
R - Yes.
And was that common?
R - Yes. By that time, by that time, yes. But going back of course I should say. perhaps fifty years before, water was obtained from local pumps and the like you see but that was before my time.
Yes so, so in fact while you were a child you didn't see pumps or…
R - No, no.
Can you remember if the stairs at Darwen had had a carpet?
R - Yes.
And. did your neighbours and your friends, did they have carpets in the house?
R - Yes.
Can you remember what sort of floor coverings you had in the downstairs rooms?
R - Yes, a carpet in the front room and I suppose oilcloth or linoleum in the rear. If I remember rightly the middle room or dining room had a flag floor, which was fairly common in those days.
And would there be mats scattered on that?
R - Oilcloth, oilcloth or linoleum. Well, it was oilcloth, linoleum was a superior covering which was coming into use. Earlier on I said to you that about that time there was a period of refinement in the requirements you see? And, and so on. But I remember we had a carpet in the bedroom, I am trying to recall the name of it - Kidderminster. Now, a Kidderminster carpet. You know what a Kidderminster carpet is. The pattern alternates, you see? On the front, say it's black and white squares, the white square would be on the top, the black square underneath you see? But say it would happen to be, a light brown and a dark brown.
(700)
And were there carpets in the other bedrooms too?
R - No. Floor cloth. Instead of linoleum, call it floor cloth. And then that covers a variety you see? As I say, linoleum as we know it today is a far superior quality to the floor cloth of those days you see. But that was the best obtainable at the time.
So, during your childhood really it would not be uncommon for people to have carpets in their front room although it might be quite a, the status symbol perhaps.
R - Well, it's not uncommon but they weren't the quality of carpet they have today. you see? I mentioned the Kidderminster carpet, but that was a simple carpet without any, what do you call it…
Pile?
R - Without any pile you see? And there were floor coverings of a variety but they were relatively simple.
Can you remember anything about the curtains or the blinds, or whatever you had for windows?
R - Yes, they were lace curtains.
Just lace curtains?
R - Yes, with as a rule a pelmet you know?
So you didn’t have any thicker ones that you drew at night?
R - No, we had Venetian blinds. Yes, you see, you’re bringing back ... and I remember Venetian blinds are awful job to clean. and take down.
Were they similar to the ones we have today?
R- Yes, same model, except you have nylon cord today, whereas we had a cotton cord, and they wore out frequently and then the thing clattered down.
Yes, do you remember people having curtains besides lace curtains, like we have today to draw at night or would people just tend to have the lace curtains?
(750)
R - The majority would be lace curtains.
Upstairs and down?
R – Yes.
Did the women usually whiten the steps, the front steps?
R - Yes. And there was a certain amount of pride but the house I was born in was a terraced house and with a garden in front and access by steps, stone steps which was, without snobbishness, superior to the cottage house type where they were houses in rows, and where each housewife was proud to have the window cills and the stone steps stoned you see? By the way, you might be interested in this ... it's all right (Showed us a book on town life.)
Now. you were telling me about the pride people attached to whitening their steps and window bottoms. Presumably they used donkey stone did they?
R - Yes. Yes, and these were sold by men with small horses and horse and cart business, not a cart with sides, a flat top, rag and bone merchants. And they used to go round giving and exchanging these donkey stones. There were different colours - rubbing stones we called them - but there was one they called donkey brand, it was the softest stone.
[George is slightly off-target here, I don’t think he had ever donkey stoned a step. The two basic types of rubbing stone were hard and soft. Hard was lighter than soft which was almost a reddish brown colour. Donkey and Lion were two proprietary brands and they made both hard and soft.]
And presumably it was quite a skilled business knowing which was the right stone for your type of step.
R - Well we never used stones, we had no need, except for the edge of the step because ours was a terraced house with the garden in front and it was a different, different exterior. The cottages were where they used stones of that type you see principally but all houses
(800)
finished off the edge of the steps when they were clean, but they didn't necessarily always stone the whole of the step. Because there was a step and then there was a little kind of platform, and then another step to enter the house you see? They didn’t always stone the whole lot but they very often cleaned it to get that green that comes from the trees and you know, to give it an extra polish. But they didn't keep it white like they did on the cottage houses. Right.
Yes, yes. How often would they do this?
(25 min)
R - Oh, once a week.
Religiously.
R - Oh religiously.
Yes. Can you remember the first electric lighting?
R - No. I remember it generally speaking coming in but I can’t just recall the first occasion I saw it.
The house in Darwen, was that gas lit?
R - Lit by gas, yes.
Have you any vague memories of when you changed over?
R - Well you see, when we left it, it had gas, and when we went to St Annes we’d gas. We’d electric light when we came to Blackburn.
When you were 16?
R - Yes. We rented I should say in those days - and this is a very important social matter - before the first world war there were houses to let throughout the land, and consequently men with families who wanted to move, to improve their jobs or for whatever reason, they could do so with little trouble. They didn’t lay out capital except the equipping of the house they could rent, at reasonable rents. And it was only the Rent Restriction
(850)
Acts, the retention of the Rent Restriction Acts, which have made the present shortage. They have prevented the natural development of housing and no political party has had the courage to remove them. Macmillan did make an attempt for one section, and then he went out of office, and was succeeded by a Labour government. and they put the restrictions back again. And indeed, they made things far worse since they restricting rents on furnished houses and virtually everything. Now this is a challenge to democracy because it’s an injustice and where there's injustice, sooner or later attempts will be made to put things right. It’s an injustice to deprive landlords of a proper, appropriate return on their investment, and it's most unfortunate because there is a great shortage of houses because it doesn’t pay, it's not economic for anybody to build today to get a rent and yet there is money available. It goes a little further in so far as people have got used to being subsidised, which is another danger to democracy. And therefore they are not always prepared to face up to the fact of an economic price you see. They are, to a certain extent those with a certain amount of capital are able to
(900)
buy houses because of money being invested in building societies. But that’s only a palliative really, it’s not a cure. To my mind it’s a tragedy because it prevents people from finding employment in different parts of the country because they cannot get anywhere to live. That's a secondary effect with a very great importance to the national well being. And other effect, a side effect of this Rent Restriction Act is this, that with the saving in rent, tenants have been able to pay radio rentals and television rentals. Now, when the truth dawns, it will be unpalatable but until the Rent Restriction Acts are removed, and they can’t be removed at a stroke, they would have to be removed gradually. But until that day comes there will never be the number of houses available for the population. It’s a sad fact, but politicians are not prepared to face up to risking loss of votes by facing reality.
The thing that sparked you off on this was electric lighting. You were obviously going to say something about electric lighting and letting houses and renting houses. Can you remember what it was?
R - Yes. Our first electric light was in a rented house in Blackburn in 1906. And I think the house would have been converted say by about, to electricity about ten years before.
Yes.
R - Incidentally the town of Blackburn played a very big part in the development of the electrical industry. There was a very able man called
(950)
Thomas Barton who was a pioneer, with the result that people in Blackburn used electricity, yes used electricity earlier than people elsewhere. He provided telephone, private telephone systems from the country mills and works to the Manchester warehouses. And indeed the headquarters of the national telephone company were in Blackburn before they nationalised in I think 1908 or 1910 see? So that brings me, that helps me to focus the situation.
So in fact you were in a pioneering area altogether in this field weren’t you?
R - Yes. Yes I was.
SCG/22 May 2003
4,071 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/03
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 26th OF JANUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
Well Mr Singleton, when I was last here we were talking about curtains and water closets and things like that, and I seem to remember that the last thing we talked about was electric lighting which was quite a new thing when you were a child. Anyway you answered that question and we move on to the next thing, which is household rubbish. Can you remember how the household rubbish was disposed of when you were a child?
R-Yes, from an ash pit.
So you had an ash pit at the back of the house?
R - Yes. It was thrown in and then shovelled out by the man who came round regularly.
Did any of them have dustbins as we have them now? Can you remember?
R - No, that was a later innovation.
And how did your mother do the washing?
(50)
R - In the cellar. We had a what is known as a copper which is a boiler and under which was a coal fire and that had to be set going, boiling the water in advance of the washing operation.
And how long would it take to boil up?
R – Oh I don’t know, possibly half an hour.
It was an all day job was it? Washday?
R - Oh it was certainly. I would say a whole morning job. And then after the clothes were washed they went through what was known as a mangle or a squeezer with wood rollers.
How often did she do the washing?
(100)
R - Well. Monday was the normal washing day. But I think that with a family the size of ours that there were other periods of washing. But it was a major, having regard to getting the boiler going it was a major operation. You couldn't just do as you can with modern appliances, switch on and off. You had to plan ahead and it all took time.
Yes. And how, you said you thought it must have taken most of the morning.
R- I am sure. And at that time the fashion was for business men to wear white linen shirts with cuffs and loose collars. And my father had a clean shirt every day which had to be ironed. And that was a big job, ironing on top of everything else. It was hard work.
(5 min)
Particularly linen.
R - Oh yes. But it was hard work yes.
How did she do the ironing?
R - Well, with a box iron.
That you put water in, hot water in?
R - No.
That you warmed on the stove?
R - You put, you had a heater, a piece of iron which you put into the fire. With the tongs you pulled it out and put into what was known as a box iron which then was heated and used for the purpose.
I had understood box irons to be heated with hot water, but you have put me right on that now.
R - We also had the irons which were heated in front of a fire.
Flat irons.
R -Flat irons, yes. But the box iron was the main one.
(150)
R- The favourite.
And presumably the secret was to get the linen shirts with just that sufficient amount of dampness still in them to get out all the creases.
R- That’s right, that's right. Whilst you were using the box iron, one heater in the box and the other was in the fire ready when one had cooled you see?
Yes, that’s right. Have you got any vivid memories about washday yourself?
R – Yes. I remember going down into the cellar as a small boy, filled with steam, water on the flag floor, it wasn’t an attractive place.
I thought you were going to say falling flat on your face because the floor was wet!
R – No, I don’t recall that. But I recall one day my eldest sister getting her fingers caught in the mangle and getting the middle finger squashed. Which was not uncommon because children got hold of a handle you know and put their hands on the rollers and they were easily taken in.
And presumably she relied on the outside weather for drying her clothes.
R - Yes with a rack in the kitchen.
Ah, yes, the old pulley rack, yes.
(200)
R - Of course I must say that for many years we had a maid to help. Otherwise it was just impossible, a family of six.
Quite.
R- Indeed an aunt lived with her for several years and she died when I was eight. So it was a full household.
How did your mother clean the house? I know it's rather an odd question but did the...
R - Well, there was a thorough spring cleaning once a year from top to bottom. And that I do remember. And then weekly there was a tidying and dusting operation.
And did the maid do that, or did your mother do that?
R – Oh, the maid did the wet work and mother did the cooking.
Was there anything you can remember your mother paid particular attention to in the cleaning operations?
(250)
R - Not particularly but she was very exacting, worked to a high standard.
So woe betide any muddy hands on walls and things
R - Well, we’d to be careful.
Did you or the rest of the family help with any of the jobs?
R - Well, are you referring to my Darwen days?
Well, yes really.
R- Yes, we left Darwen when I was nine and a half so it’s before then. Right. Well, we were all taught to help in one way or another. My job was to clean the boots. They weren't shoes in those days, they were boots. And my sisters were taught to do needlework, it was a case of all hands on deck.
(10 Min)
But your job was cleaning the boots?
R – Yes, which I disliked.
Did you? Oh dear!
R - Very much. But I had no option.
So you had what, six pairs a day to deal with did you?
R - Something like that.
Can, can you remember - and you were the eldest, weren’t you?
R - Yes.
Can you remember taking on particular jobs of responsibility in looking after the younger brothers and sisters?
(300)
R - Oh yes. I had to take them out into the park which was near by, Bold Venture Park as it was called, and the younger were in bassinettes before the days of perambulators. And then after the bassinette there was what was known as the mail cart, a lighter model, when they were getting a little older you see.
Were they sprung? Did they have any springs?
R- I can't recall the mail cart, I think there must be something, but I do know the bassinette was like a large cradle and rested on bent steel springs so there was a certain amount of spring you see. But I don’t recall springs as such. They were very useful.
Yes. So you had to take them all for a walk in the park.
R- Yes. I remember being called in one day, one morning, and I turned the corner In a hurry. and upset the bassinette with my youngest brother in.
Oh dear. And what about dressing or eating? Did you have to help there at all, or not?
(350)
R - I don't recall that. Except of course the youngest, they were sat in a tall chair. which folded up and provided a seat and a table for being pushed around on the floor you see? They were very useful, they were very useful, you have seen them.
Oh yes. I can remember something like that but I don’t think you can get them now.
R - No.
Did any of the family do any jobs for the family outside the home, like running errands or gardening or ...
R- No, not as a regular thing. I was the, being the eldest I had to do most of the errands.
(15 min)
Can you remember whether your father did any work in the house that perhaps wouldn't normally be done by the head of the house like mending or cleaning or cooking. Doing the fires?
R - No.
Looking after the children?
R - Well he took his part as far as that was concerned but, he had a busy day, and when he got home at night, you see. He got home to lunch occasionally which was called dinner in those days.
What about decorating, was that done by outside people?
R - Yes definitely.
(400)
Yes. Did your family own their own house?
R-Yes.
That's the Darwen house and the one here?
R - No, we owned the Darwen House, but the one in St Annes was rented.
Yes. Can you remember or would you know in fact how much the Darwen house cost?
R- No. No clue*
Or in fact how much rent was paid for the Lytham house? No clue?
R - No clue.
Did you ever meet the landlord? At the Lytham house?
R- Yes.
Was he a good landlord do you think?
R - I would say yes. He was an architect and his father had engaged him to build a block of five houses as an investment. You see this is how many professional men started, got a backing with the parents. And then he left then you see? Well the father would have the income from the rents, and the son would have the experience and the fees would be carrying out the work and so it went on.
Can you remember his name?
R - Wade.
Oh well done. And would that be sort of annual renting arrangement, or would it be a longer term thing?
R - Oh, I would think a three, very frequently they were, houses were let for three years. On lease for three years.
So you rather think that it might have been that.
(450)
R - But there were many on what is known as annual tenancy you see?
Did your mother do any work in the house to earn a little extra money?
R - No, She had no time.
No. Did women in the neighbourhood do that at all? Was it a general practice?
R - No, there were what you may say, help was obtained from certain women who had a little spare time or who didn't go out to work, and they used to help out - what is known as occasional help, household, domestic help. There was a certain amount of that.
What about things like child minding or taking in washing or cooking things to sell?
R – Well yes, there's always been that, shall I say local accommodation in the past. There’s not so much now because we are living in so called affluent days.
Is the house that you lived in Lytham still standing?
R - Yes.
And it’s still in its original form?
R – Yes.
Right. Well we have finished with that section for the moment and perhaps we move on to something you can remember better because it's about what you used to eat, and things that you could buy. So you might remember that. What did your mother cook on, can you remember?
(500)
R - Which house? Darwen or ... You have finished with Darwen now have you?
Well. if you can remember the Darwen days better.
R - Well you see she'd an oven at the side of the fire, the kitchen fire.
An ordinary range. Yes.
R – Yes, a range. Now ... and I believe we had a similar one at St Annes but I think later we got a gas oven.
(20 min)
Can you remember when that would be?
R- No.
No. Did she make her own bread?
R - Yes.
So that had to be fitted in regularly as well as the washing.
R – Yes, once a week, and I helped to do the kneading.
Did you? At what level? Did you get up on top of thing?
R No I got on my knees. We’d put the basin on the floor. The bread mug as it was called, put it on the floor and on my knees and kneaded.
Good for you. Andy presumably one of those lovely earthenware bowls.
R - Yes. With a cream lined finish you see, yes.
Yes I know what you mean, yes. How much did she make at each go?
R - Oh I don't know, I think it was fourteen pounds.
That was some kneading to have to do then, wasn’t it?
R - Or would it be seven pounds? Oh well, she would bake for a week. Now, I suppose we’d shift two loaves at least a day, with a family of eight, there was six children and the parents. So that’s probably
(550)
fifteen or sixteen loaves a week. Now, we’d pound loaves, that’s the finished article, now I don't know how much flour it takes to make a pound loaf. Do you?
Yes, I should do, shouldn't 1? 1 was doing some ...
R - I would think ... oh, fourteen pound, I would think I am not far wrong with fourteen.
And did she put the dough into containers or were they free standing? She made a shape, did she?
R - Oh, they went into bread tins.
They went into bread tins.
R - Oh yes. Standard size, and they were all greased before you put the dough in, and then put ..
Oh yes, yes. And then knock them on the bottom to see if they are cooked afterwards.
R - That's right.
Did she also bake cakes?
R - Yes.
What seemed to be the usual ones?
R - Barm cakes from dough, known as Barm cakes. You see, the yeast in those days was known as barm locally. [or balm] You see? So they get the name Barm cakes
And were they sort of like a scone then?
R - Well they were made from dough. The result was, they were similar to bread, but they were dainty, particularly when they were warm and nicely buttered, you see? And then she'd make tea cakes and a cake with pastry and currants, a flat ...
Eccles cake?
R- No, a large flat cake with currants and it was known as sad cake.
Oh yes.
R - Sad cake. You have heard of that before.
Yes. No chocolate cakes or anything like that?
(600)
R - Oh no, no, We didn’t, chocolate was a later development. But there were, you know, cakes from raisins and currants and occasionally a plain cake, Good stuff.
You look well enough on it anyway.
R - That's true.
And what about pies?
R – Yes. She used to make pies. Apple pies and fruit pies according to the season and mince pies at Christmas.
And presumably, were they the pies that just had the pastry crust with the, what are they called in the middle to hold the pastry up, or were they
R – Well, there were both kinds, that’s what we call the pies with the lid which had a kind of cone to get the steam up, you see.
Yes, I’ve forgotten what they are called.
R- And then there was the other, the flat one which was known as a tart.
Did she make jam and marmalade?
R- Yes.
So marmalade would be about now I suppose with the Seville oranges.
R - Yes, that's right.
Yes. And would she use preserving sugar? Do you know that? You don’t see it often now, but ...
R- I don’t know about that, the distinction between preserving sugar and ordinary sugar, I don’t know.
No. And what sorts of jams did she usually make?
(25 min)
R - Victoria Plum, Damson, Strawberry, Blackcurrant, Greengage, and so on.
Were you all brought in to help with the picking of all these things?
R- Well, occasionally, as required. My sisters of course did the more delicate works, see? I did the shoes and the errands and chopping the firewood, and that kind of thing.
Did you have a Victoria plum tree in the garden or were there…
R- No, we had to buy all the fruit.
Yes. And what about pickles? Did she make pickles?
(650)
R- No. She might have made pickled cabbage, and red cabbage occasionally but we didn't go in for that kind of thing.
And presumably not homemade wine either.
R- No, It was unthought of in those days.
Well yes. Just a few people did. Can you ever remember any of her own patented methods for curing things? And even medicines she used to make herself and what were they for?
R- Well, she made a cough medicine. And she herself believed in homeopathy. That medicine with pills you know. Belladonna, Aconite and that kind of thing. Not heard of it? It's a section of medicine which, I don't know how to put it, but it's a specialised form of medicine which is successful in some cases. Don't ask me to explain how it works.
You don’t know. Not one of these business of mind over matter.
R- No, there may have been something in it. But she believed in homeopathy for treatment on herself. On the whole we were very healthy, living a simple life on good food.
Can you remember what she made the cough mixture from? That you mentioned before.?
(700)
R- No, well treacle was one of the ingredients and honey.
Can yeti remember having rations of malt or anything like that particularly in winter months.
R- Yes, she did give us malt extract occasionally, and cod liver oil.
Which I’m sure you loved.
R - Nauseating.
Horrible, isn’t it. And things like inhalers when you had a cold, things like that, did you have to go through? Steaming.
(30 min)
R- Well we had an inhalant. There weren’t these devices on the market then as there are today, you see.
No. A big china pot. Yes.
R- We’d have a jug with, what is the stuff we put in?
Vick.
R- Oh no, Vick was a modern invention. No, Friars Balsam.
Friars Balsam yes.
R- Yes that was the inhalant that we most frequently used.
Yes. Right, what did you actually have for breakfast?
R- Porridge.
Every day of the week?
R - Yes. A little bacon bread and butter, sometimes toast, and tea as a
beverage.
And presumably the toast would be made from the open fire with a toasting fork.
R- On the fire. Open fire with a fork, that’s right.
And was that a nice job to have, to make the toast or .. a bit of a chore?
R- I don't recall making much toast myself. The introduction of toast was a later development really.
What did you have for Sunday dinner?
R - A roast, invariably. Well you see, there were eight and sometimes nine and the roast was more economical.
(750)
Quite. And was the Sunday dinner a special affair? Did you perhaps eat in a different place, or with different china?
R- Well, sometimes different china yes but we all had our meals in the dining room, because we had the meals together more or less. We were going to school you see. All at the same time.
What would you usually have for your other dinners during the week?
R- Well one day we had fish, Fridays, not as a ritual but as a variety. And stews, was it, Irish stew was one then haricot mutton was another and that kind of thing.
Presumably there wasn’t much left of the joint by the time you'd had it on Sunday.
R- No, except Monday, there was generally sufficient for Monday which was cold meat, and to me never appetizing.
You came back from school for lunch then did you? All of you?
R - Yes.
And, was tea any different, was tea time a different sort of meal?
R- Mostly jam and bread, which was good homemade bread and butter and jam as required.
And cakes and pie or not?
R- Occasionally cakes, not every time. No, not every time.
But never any meat. No.
R- Not at night, no.
And then did you have a supper time? Before bed time or not?
R- Sometimes a cup of cocoa or a drink of milk.
But nothing to eat. No.
R- Nothing to eat.
Was there a garden or an allotment attached to your house?
(800)
R- No. We had a front garden, small front garden. And the yard was paved, we had no garden at the back.
So in fact you didn’t really have any access to your own-grown produce of any kind?
R - No. No that’s right.
(35 min)
And coming back to dinner time again, did you ever have pudding?
R- Oh yes milk puddings.
Milk puddings regularly.
R- Regularly. Rice, tapioca, sago, semolina.
And it was normal to have a pudding at every meal?
R- Oh yes, a pudding yes, it was a standard part of the midday meal.
Even for example on washday or bread making day?
R- Well my recollection is it was on daily. There may have been days when it was missing, but ...
Presumably you went through quite a lot of milk in your house
R- We did.
Can you remember vaguely how much you'd get through in a day.
R- No. No.
Did you collect it from a local farm, or was it brought to you.
R- Delivered.
It was delivered. So you used milk for the puddings and your drinks at night. Any other obvious uses of the milk?
R- No.
And you have mentioned a minute or two back that you had bread and butter and jam for tea. Was it always butter?
R- Mostly, I would say. Occasionally margarine, but mostly butter.
And did you ever have things like bread and dripping from a joint?
R - Oh yes, yes we did. And bread and dripping can be very tasty.
Oh I know yes.
R- Yes we had.
Yes. From the joint presumably.
R- Yes.
Yes, but your mother didn’t make the butter, surely, did she?
R - No, Oh no.
No. Can you remember what fruits you most often ate as a child?
R- Apples.
Non stop apples.
R - And oranges. Apples and oranges were the principal fruit.
Round here you didn’t have any particular fruit growing?
(850)
R - In the summer time, of course, we had the stone fruit, plums you see and strawberries. In season, whatever was in season, we’d, mother did her best to give us a variety.
But she always had apples at home did she?
R - Oh apples yes, my father used to get a barrel at a time.
Did he?
R - Of Baldwins. Canadian Baldwins were the principal ...
Really? And what sort of apples were they?
R- Oh a nice red apple.
I have never heard of those. Can you remember what vegetables appeared most regularly on your table?
R – Potatoes, cabbage, cauliflower, peas. Yes those were the principal ones.
Now then, we are going to go through a selected list of foods now and I’d like you to tell me whether you had them every week or perhaps just once a month or very rarely, or in fact never. Okay? Bananas.
R- Occasionally.
Rabbit.
R- Yes. That would take the place of a stew. Yes.
Yes. Did your mother buy the rabbit? Sort of as it was?
R – Oh yes.
From a fruiterer or ...
R - Yes, that's right, yes.
Fried food?
R -Fried food?
Yes, well, you had bacon every morning didn’t you?
R- We had bacon, yes.
Yes. Now other fried foods like fried eggs.
R- Well yes, we’d eggs occasionally and sometimes eggs in place of bacon, you see.
And did you ever have anything like liver? Fried, or would it always be…
R - No. We had occasionally liver and kidney.
And it would be fried would it?
R- Yes.
You told me about fish, you had that pretty nearly once a week?
R- Yes.
Can you remember what sort of fish it would be?
R- Cod, Whiting, Plaice.
(40 min)
Cheese. Cooked or uncooked.
(900)
R- We had cheese occasionally and sometimes we would have cheese on toast as a rarebit, you know? As an alternative to something else. Oh yes she provided as good a variety as she could within the standard foods obtainable at the day. And then a lot of vegetables have came on the market which we never saw you see, asparagus, spinach ...
Sweet corn?
R- Sweet corny and there was another one with a purple top.
Pepper, aubergine? Purple sprouting?
R- Yes. Well those were not available you see?
No, no.
R- Costly at any rate. There may have been some but we just went for the standard goods. Oh, and occasionally we’d have lettuce in the Summer with our bread and butter in place of jam. Things like that. We lived like a lower middle class family. Plain, good, frugal in a way, that there was no waste you see.
No. Now then, what about something like cowheel, tripe, trotters or black pudding?
R- Oh yes. Cowheel and trotters were occasionally on the table as an alternative yes.
What did you think of that? Did you like it?
R- Oh yes. I liked cowheels and trotters and tripe. Yes, but I never fancied black puddings.
It's the one thing I have had out of that list. I’ve trying to persuade someone to do some tripe for me, so that it just lands on the plate. I don’t want know what’s happened to it till it gets there, to see whether I like it or not. I have never had any of the others.
R- Haven’t you? Have you had cowheel?
No.
R- In Lancashire of course there was a great import of cattle from Ireland.
Yes.
R- Into Liverpool and the abattoirs, and to other places and consequently what was known as offal was distributed you see, and large firms [dealt in it]. The population developed tremendously in the industrial era and there were shops, whole special shops who just sold these delicacies you see? Oh yes.
[There were many family firms that did nothing but boil and sell tripe, cowheel and trotters. There was one major chain of shops, United Cattle Products {UCP} who did the same thing and ran restaurants selling the cooked products. They had a large processing factory in Levenshulme, Manchester]
(950)
Was it a long operation, preparing things like cowheel?
R- They had to be boiled.
Presumably for quite a long time.
R- Yes, I would think the cowheel took longer, certainly longer than trotters and tripe.
Now you mentioned that you had eggs sometimes as a substitute for bacon.
R- Yes.
Can you remember which of the two was more expensive?
R- No.
No. I just wondered with you buying bacon perhaps more regularly than eggs whether in fact bacon was a cheaper commodity then eggs.
(45 min)
R- No, I don't think the variety depended upon price.
No.
R- It was having variety of food to satisfy our bodily needs you see.
Tomatoes.
R- Oh yes. They were fairly abundant in those days.
Were they. But presumably they would he imported.
R - Oh no. In this area, in the FyIde. It’s one of the largest tomato growing areas in the country.
But it would still be very much a seasonal thing, wouldn’t it?
R- Oh yes.
Grapefruit.
R- No.
It wasn’t in the shops.
R- It wasn’t in the shops.
And last but not least, grapefruit.
R- I didn’t have a grapefruit, my first taste of grapefruit was when 1 was married, on my honeymoon.
Really?
Yes. And that was when I was 30 or just before 30.
And was that in this country?
R- Yes, in London.
Good.
R- But I have it, now I have one, half a grapefruit every day.
Yes. Very good for you too. Only I can’t manage them without sugar.
R - Oh I can.
And what about sheep's head?
R- No.
No. No, never sampled that, Can you remember your family having any tinned food?
R - Occasionally. Tinned pears. Sunday tea time. Special treat.
Special treat.
R - Yes that's right.
And were there quite a few tinned foods around then, or not?
R - Oh no. Tinned pears were the most popular. Tinned pineapple.
SCG/24 May 2003
4,864 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/04
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 26th OF JANUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
Well a bit earlier on Mr Singleton we were talking about tinned food.
R - Yes.
And you told me that tinned pears were perhaps the most…
R- Popular…
Of the tinned food. You also mentioned that you had occasionally# as a Sunday treat, tinned pineapple. Can you remember any other tinned food that would be about then?
R - Well perhaps we might have tinned sardines. We had on occasion I remember, but there was nothing like the range of tinned foods that there are today. And I would say we rang the changes on those you see?
(50)
Yes. Did you ever have bad tinned food?
R - I don’t recall.
Yes. But your mother wasn't averse to using tinned food.
R - Oh no.
Right, you have mentioned earlier that tea and cocoa were drinks that you had at home. Did you ever drink much coffee?
R – No.
Because it was too expensive?
R - I don’t know why but it was not often. Indeed we had a bottle of Symington’s coffee essence available for use when required you see. But we were not coffee drinkers as such.
Do you think people were at the time?
R- Well, coffee was always popular with the commercial people in the cafes in Manchester and these cities and towns particularly where transactions were discussed. Coffee was the acceptable means of a beverage whilst discussing these problems.
(100)
So mid-morning you would have a cup of tea rather than a cup of coffee would you?
R - Yes.
Yes. Now tell me what memories have you got of Christmas Dinner?
R- Oh well, that was a regular thing. Turkey, plum pudding, mince tarts, cheese, lemonade, with, what do you call it, paper caps and crackers you know? A good, solid Englishman’s Christmas meal. Yes.
Did you eat cheese with the Christmas pudding, or you had it with biscuits?
R- With the biscuits.
With the biscuits yes. So that ? very little.
R - Yes, very little.
Had you any particular foods that were favourite when you were a child? Favourite foods for you?
(150)
R - Yes. I was very fond of barley puddings as a change from rice puddings.
Barley pudding?
R - Barley pudding, yes.
Made from pearl barley?
R- Yes. And I was fond of whiting. I think I remember as a small boy being ill in a cot, well having to be in a cot in my parent’s bedroom. My first nourishment was whiting and I think barley pudding, and from then on I look forward to them as, well I like them you see. I think that was the, certainly about the whiting, and I rather think with the barley pudding. But we were brought up to eat what was set before us. And I don’t remember any trouble from objections, from any of us.
Did your mother try and give you favourite food, say on your birthday or something like that?
R - Oh well there was usually a special treat on the birthday according to what was going and probably invite one or two friends in you see?
(200)
1 always remember I was allowed my favourite meal the day before I went back to school. [boarding school]
R – Yes. Things like that, that's it.
What did you have to eat when your family was perhaps going through a bad time financially. If that applies.
R- Well, it would get down to bread and dripping, boiled potatoes, or potatoes in jackets and oatmeal porridge.
You survived though didn’t you?
R - We survived.
Did your father come home for all his meals?
R- No.
And, do you know what he ate then? What did he take to work, to eat?
(250)
R - Well you see, his business caused him to travel to various towns in Lancashire. So he started off with a good breakfast, if he got up in time. He would get a meal at midday at an hotel or a restaurant wherever he’d happen to be. But on two days a week, when he had been to Manchester, he would return with a tit-bit, whether some fish or pigeons or something special which was the habit of those days before the first world war. Businessmen taking up little tit-bits for their own consumption at home. It was a regular thing.
(10 min)
If he was based at his office, could he always get something from the town with him?
R- Oh yes.
There would be no canteen, would there?
R - Oh no. Canteens were first introduced in the first world war.
Yes. At family meal times did your father always have the same food as the rest of the family, or did he have sometimes something special?
(300)
R- Well, he had these special, because you see we had our meals before he returned from Manchester so that we were ready for our meal round about five o'clock or half past you now, whereas he would come in about half past six. So of course he invariably had his evening meal by himself.
So your mother ...
R - Or mother might have hers with him. But it depended upon the circumstances you see?
Yes. Can you over remember your mother going short of food to feed the rest of you?
R - Well I wouldn’t say that she never had anything, but we all felt the scarcity in that time of difficulty, which I mentioned you see?
Who used to do the shopping in your family?
R - Mother, and I would go with her to do the carrying and then odd journeys I would be sent, you see? Being the oldest.
How often was the shopping done?
R – Well, mostly weekly.
And then you were sent to this corner shop presumably for things during the week.
R - Well, during the week but of course there were no refrigerators in those days and we had a stone slab in the larder on which to place food we wanted to keep for the day following. Now, one of the titbits I remember was lettuces. Now lettuce leaves the day following can be very limp, but we had no option. We might have a plate over to keep the moisture in and things like that, but refrigeration has made a wonderful difference in the last fifty years.
Can you remember where the vegetables were bought?
R- Well, from a greengrocer and then put in the larder. We had a separate larder from the kitchen.
Yes. And the meat you'd have bought from the butcher.
R- Yes. Again, we had to have meat covers to keep the flies off.
Did you have a meat [safe]?
R- No.
Just the wire mesh cover.
R - The wire mesh cover.
Where did your mother buy her groceries?
R- Mostly from the grocery shop, her regular grocer’s shop. Occasionally she would buy from the Co-op which was nearer, which was near by you see.
Did she fill in an order?
R- She had no prejudice against the Co-op.
No. Did she fill in an order book for her groceries?
(15 min)
R- No. I think at one time she might have worked on that system. Because groceries were delivered by tradesmen in those days. Not all the time but occasionally.
Did your mother ever shop in the market?
R- Well, there wasn’t a market in St Annes. There was a market at Darwen and there was a market at Blackburn. And where there was a market she shopped.
Yes. For everything or ...
R- No. For variety for one thing, and in some cases price and freshness you see.
Was there any difference between prices and service and quality too between the local street corner shop and those in the town centre?
(450)
R- Yes, those in the small corner shops, the food there tended to be stale because there wasn’t the same turnover. Fresh deliveries, all right, but their roll of bacon for instance would last longer at the corner shop than at the central shop and therefore it tended to he a little bit off, stale. But that was accepted, you couldn't have helped it, if you wanted a food at that particular moment, well, that was it.
Do you think prices were higher at the corner shop?
R- Possibly. Well it was customary for corner shops to charge slightly more than central shops because there is less turn over and they save transport costs and time in going into the centre of the town. I agree that they are entitled to their increase in price you see because in those days there was no question of profiteering. Profiteers weren't known. It was the war time that started profiteering business. Scarcity of goods.
Did the shops you used, or your mother used, give credit?
R- No. Well they would have done I suppose if we had wanted it because there were people who bought on request and had the goods delivered and got credit. But mother didn’t believe in credit.
(500)
Can you remember the pawnshops doing good business when you wore young?
R- Well, there weren't any pawnshops in St Annes, there were a few in Blackburn and before the first world war they wore busy. People did tend to overspend for various reasons and they would pledge their goods until the weekend. It wasn't an economical method but it operated, and now pawnshops are virtually non existent.
(20 min)
Did your family ever use them?
R- No.
Can you remember your neighbours using them?
R- No.
It's a world you weren’t strictly familiar with at the time.
R- True.
Was there anything you ate when you were a child that is no longer obtainable?
R- I don't think so. I can’t think of anything off hand, I don’t think so.
Would you know how much housekeeping money your mother had?
R- No.
No. Now on to the first world war. Food. Can you really remember food being short during the first world war?
R- Yes, because, shortly after it had been going food was rationed and therefore each person had a card. And I remember for meat you cut a bit off your card and handed it to the butcher. In the second world war it was a different system, but in the first world war you had a piece of
(550)
paper on which was your entitlement and when that was done that was done. So you spread it over the period, you see.
You wouldn’t remember how much?
R- No, but it was very little. Oh it was very little.
Can you remember queuing for food at all, in the war?
R- Well by this time, I was 25 when the war started, 24 – 1914, yes, 24 and I was working in Manchester. So I had no occasion to do any shopping. I was out during the day and my sisters would… We wore all, all the four brothers were away in the war you see. So there were certainly shortages and no but 1 don't remember the queues like we had in the second world war. But there were definitely shortages, you were on short commons unless you were in a government factory, and then of course you had canteen meals you see?
(600)
Do you feel your family was better fed during the first world war than before?
R- During? Oh no.
No I didn’t think you would but…
R – No. We were, what shall I say, quite happy to get through you see. We had to put up with what we could get and, well we did get through.
Right, Now then. Slightly different facts now. On clothing. Can, can you remember your mother making any of the family's clothes?
R- Yes.
Children’s clothes.
(25 min)
R- Yes.
And did she have a sewing machine?
R - Yes. A hand wheel. I remember she made me a blouse, a cotton blouse when I went to higher grade school when I was eight.
You went to a higher grade school when you were eight?
R- Yes.
Did you?
R- Started the standard five. Well I had been to a private school you see? My mother’s aunt, known as Miss Sedgwick’s school, I think I told you before. And, I think I can show you some work and I’ll get it ready for next time. I have got some. And then she died in 1898 and I went to the higher grade in the latter part of 1898, Standard five. And the school had only been opened a few years before following the, they were a sequence to the formation of the School Board.
(650)
And to give a better education to those children leaving day schools which in those days were mostly church schools. Both Church of England and Nonconformist. All right?
She mended the clothes as well did she?
R - Oh yes. Darning trousers and torn shirts and those kind of things. Oh yes, there was quite a lot of sewing to do.
Now, even though you were the eldest, did you have any passed on clothes? Passed on from relations or the neighbours?
R – No. I was a pioneer. I had nobody I knew, nobody my parents knew, where I could do that you see?
No. Then you had new clothes, but presumably your brothers and sisters had passed on ones.
R -They had. Well, not my sisters because they, again, they were, no in those days they wore, we had no influx of second hand clothing. We’d no near relatives who had children the same age or similar. No, we were pioneers if you like and my brothers had to use some of the things that I had used, with a little bit of life left in them.
Can you remember where your clothes were bought from?
(700)
R- Yes, they were bought from shops in Blackburn and my mother and her aunt used to have shopping expeditions and I would go with them you see. And I remember in particular two shops in Blackburn, one was T E Briggs, and the other was Tills and another Bottomley’s and they catered for hardwearing boy’s clothes you see? Now there was come# there was some boys clothes made of corduroy. It wasn't the fashionable quality cloths as you see in the shops today, and it smelled horrible because there is glue in the size and when you get a whole bundle of boys' clothes stacked in a corner, well, I have not forgotten. I still remember the smell of the corduroy, which I never wore. They were considered outdoor garments for work people you see.
Your trousers would be flannel would they?
R- No, they were cloth, I reckon it was cloth. [worsted cloth]
What happened to the clothes as all your brothers and sisters finished with them?
R - They'd be given away.
(20 min)
To a…
R- Charity. We never sold any.
You wouldn’t know which charity?
R- Oh no. There wasn't the charity organizations then as there is now. But, occasionally one got to know of families in poor circumstances and clothes were distributed accordingly. With a certain amount of discretion because people in poverty have their pride, rightly so. And that's the way things operated.
Can you remember what you wore for school?
R - Yes. Short trousers, it depends what age but short trousers and a blouse when I was very small and the next move was to a jacket, no waistcoat, a jacket with a shirt and a collar with it you see?
Did you have a uniform at the private school you went to?
R- No.
And did you eventually go into long trousers while you were at the higher grade schoo1?
R- No.
It was always short trousers, was it?
R - Short trousers. I didn't get long trousers until I was 14.
And that was when you started work.
R- That was in St Annes. No, I started work at 16. And 1 remember getting them from a certain tailor’s shop, now closed and it was quite an event to get long trousers.
And were they specially made for you?
R- Reach me downs.
Yes. And when you wore a blouse and later on a shirt for school what was the blouse?
R- Well, it was a, if I remember rightly it was a woollen garment with a collar, like a sailor's collar. And sometimes there was a white collar over, now whether the white collar was attached, I rather think it was you see which could be washed. Something like an anti-macassar. [Macassar oil was used for hair dressing and cotton covers were placed on the backs of upholstered seats to protect the fabric]
What kind of footwear?
R- Boots.
Lace up boots?
R- Lace ups. In the early days I remember having button ups as we called them, and then lace ups.
And these were these things that you have to polish every day.
R- That’s right.
Did you have any head wear?
R- Yes, a cap, used to always wear a cap.
A flat cap?
R - Yes a flat cap.
And you would wear that for going to school?
R - Yes.
(800)
But it wasn’t expected of you. I mean that was your choice to wear was it?
R- Yes, but most boys wore caps.
Was it quite an event when you had your first cap?
R- Well no, because I always had head gear. I never remember going out without. I mean as a very small boy I had, you know, the youngster’s straw hats, baby hats, you know but I always wore a hat. So it wasn’t a sensation like long trousers, no.
What did your father wear to work?
R- A business suit.
Black?
(35 min)
R- No, a variety, blue, brown, speaking generally sober colours. Sometimes with a pattern, but there was nothing ornate, they were suitable for the occasion.
And what kind of headgear and footwear did he wear?
R - Oh he wore a pot hat, that is a bowler hat. Except on Sundays when he had a frock coat, linen collar, white shirt, waistcoat, striped trousers and - I wonder what we called that style of silk hat. That, that's the chimney pot, you know they the silk hat. Oh yes that was a regular headgear of business and professional men until the first, until 1914. Oh yes that was the done thing, Sunday or special occasions the top hat and the frock coat.
(850)
Yes. What a sight. And what did he have for footwear?
R - Well he had mostly boots. Shoes came in, became fashionable, after the first world war. For one thing there was economy in leather and I think that had something to do with the change over.
The first world war brought about a vast lot of change didn’t it?
R - Oh yes it did.
Can you remember what your mother wore when she was doing the housework at home?
R - Well she wore a dress, buttoned up, serviceable kind of garment. And for certain occupations she wore an apron, but she had no special uniform but that was the custom of that day you see. Right?
And she wouldn’t change that to go shopping would she?
R – No. No because she would put on a coat which I suppose would be - what do you call it - a half coat, down to the knees, something like that. Ladies coats mostly were that length.
Do you know anything about some ladies who wore an apron in the house and when they went out shopping instead of taking it off they would…
R- Roll it up.
Or pick up one corner and tuck it in the top, nothing about that?
R- Yes I have seen it done but no, most ladies, irrespective of status would take off their apron on going outdoors. If they were just going round the corner, a few doors from where they lived, they might have done that but I do know it was a habit to roll up the apron in the belt so to speak.
Would your mother put a hat on to go out shopping?
(900)
R- Yes, definitely.
What sort of a hat would it be?
R- Oh well, the type of hat of the period. You see the ladies headgear is subject to fashion. Usually they had some feathers in their hats in those days, mostly straw and dark dye you know? The prevailing colour scheme for women was dark, you see originally women wore black, and indeed if you go in the country, southern Ireland today, black is the standard colour now. As things developed there was a demand for a little variation, and so it worked up you see? But there was nothing like the choice you have today, both in material and variety.
There would be no sort of knitted hats or felt?
R- Well yes. I would may there’d be some felt hats occasionally but I don't recall any knitted hats.
Can you remember your father mending the family's shoes?
R- No.
He would send them to a cobbler?
R- No it wasn't his line. No we sent them to the cobbler.
Do you think he would have done had he been used to that sort of thing?
R- Well, for one thing he was away from home. He’d be down at the office at half past eight, and he’d be back at half past six. Well that’s a ten hour day isn’t it. So that it didn’t leave him very much time and then he was a useful member of the church and he was appointed secretary of this organisation and that organisation and so that his evenings spare, many of his spare evenings were taken up on church work.
(950)
How many outfits did you have at any one time?
R- Me? Two, one for day work, one for Sunday. One for week day and one for Sunday. Yes, that’s right, and then the Sunday one was demoted you see for week day and you got another one for Sunday.
And can, would you know how long any of these outfits lasted?
R- Oh well. It depended upon the rate of growth ...
Well I was going to say that.
R- For one thing. I don’t think I wore out many. I think they were mostly passed on.
How often did you have clean clothes?
R- Oh regular it were, the underclothes were washed every week. Oh that was a regular thing and the bed linen was washed every week.
Was it?
R- Well, at regular intervals. She’d probably do one bed or two beds in one week and two beds the next week or something like that you see.
That would be a big wash then, wouldn’t it?
R- Oh yes. It was.
Were any of your clothes made by a dressmaker or tailor?
R – No. Not until my late teens.
When you had a suit, perhaps?
R – Yes.
Were you sewn in for the winter?
R - No never.
Do you know anyone who was?
R – No. Now, as I have already said, in the early days not many houses had baths you see. And what they had was a tin bath which they put on the hearth, and then put hot water in from the fire, from the kettle, you see? And very often the fireplace, they had a tank where water was being warmed by the fire, and it was ready to be ladled out you see at a certain temperature.
(l000)
Did your mother belong to a savings club for clothing or boots or shoes?
R – No.
Would you know what sort of clothing your father’s foreman wore?
R – No. Well, at one period he’d only a book-keeper and one man, you see so I should know what they wore but no that wouldn’t lead you anywhere really.
(45 min)
No well, it's the reverse question normally. I’d be asking what the foreman as opposed to his boss would wear you see.
R - Yes of course, of course yes.
How did clothes change after the first world war?
R - Well in the first two or three years the quality was poor, gradually improved.
You mentioned a bit back I think, one or two styles you mentioned changed after the first world war, didn't you?
R - Do you mean men's wear?
Oh yes. I can’t remember exactly what it was now.
SCG/29 May 2003
4,180 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/05
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 29th OF JANUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
Well Mr Singleton, just before we move on to family life and the home perhaps we can just finish off what we were talking about and that was the effect that the first world war had on clothing, fashion and style. And I think we were just about to say that shoes really began after the first world war
R- Well, developed, yes. And naturally with the shortages of goods people had to make the best with what there was available. It took several years for warehouse shelves to be filled with goods that people wanted see? Right.
What kind of clothes did you wear in the twenties? Can you remember there being any significant difference?
(50)
R- Well I was married in 1919 you see so I was 29 and had just come out of the services and married in the May. May 29th , Royal Oak Day 1919 you see? There was no rapid change in men's clothing, except as time wore on and clothes became more expensive there was a tendency to dispense with waistcoats, there was a tendency to wear belts instead of braces which automatically followed you see because you don’t wear braces you see, to show, it's not done. But I never followed that trend, I always bought a three piece suit and I still wear braces. I may wear a belt as an extra, to be sure, now and again but not normally.
(100)
Then other materials than wool and cotton came on the market, with artificial yarns. They are called man made fibres nowadays, but I object to that term, they are artificial and serve a very useful purpose. They have their advantages, they have their disadvantages. For instance most of the worsted suits today contain a large proportion of synthetic fibre of one kind or another. You can note this, you can see that by the sheen on men's clothes you see? And, and therefore price has had an effect on fashion by combining style with cost and so it will go on. Yes.
Yes. What sort of …
R- Collar?
Well, and collar. I was going to say tie. Did you have that at your neck?
R- Well, I invariably wear a shirt requiring a tie. I am uncomfortable in shirts without ties, or in woollen jerseys, polo necks. I have several, I have tried to wear them but I am uncomfortable in them because I had not been used to it you see?
Yes. What sort of a tie would it be that you wore in the twenties?
R - Oh there were silk ties in the twenties.
Ones that you do up like that?
R – Yes.
Not a cravat or anything?
R – No. No, cravats have only been worn in my time for weddings. I don’t recall them being… Well, wait a minute, you mean the, there are some men’s gear, out gear, where a scarf is tied round the neck you see?
Yes. No I wasn’t meaning that. I was trying to locate what sort of neck tie was worn in the twenties. I didn't think it was exactly like that.
(200)
R - Well It was this style.
But it would be, it would be thinner wouldn’t it though of course? Yes?
R - A bit thinner. Yes. And they were silk in those days, Macclesfield silk.
And would the collar turn up? Wing collars are they called?
R - Oh yes, for a number of years there were wing collars, that's true. And then they went out of fashion. But the movement in fashion in men’s wear is slow.
Yes. Right, back at home again now. On a weekend I think you said that your family did all sit down for meals together. Did you?
R - Yes.
But not during the week because of your father's hours.
R – Yes, but the family, as a rule sat together. The children and parents, it was teatime and we all assembled you see?
Did your parents have any rules about children’s behaviour at the table?
R – Rather.
Go on then, tell me.
R - There were strict rules and none the worse for that. We were able to take part in conversation but we had to behave in accordance to our parents wishes.
(250)
Did you have grace before meals?
R – Yes. Grace before meals.
Which grace did you tend to have?
R - 'For what we are about to receive, may the Lord make us truly thankful. Amen'
And you [all said it] together?
R - Yes and we took it in turns.
(10 min)
To say it?
R- Yes. Which would be nominated you see, by our parents.
And then you had to wait till your father started before you started.
R - Yes.
And you had to, did you have to ask to leave the table?
R - Yes we had and why not?
Oh well, I agree.
R - You see what I mean, there is a merit in discipline. You see it more, you realise it more as time goes by, but those people who are disciplined enjoy life, in my experience, better than the ne’er-do-wells and free for all business.
And presumably you were trained to watch what your neighbour wanted and secure it for him.
R- Yes. And pass it along, that's true, yes. That's right.
Yes. I always find it very…
R - In other words, table manners, we were taught table manners.
Yes. And using the jam spoon instead of your knife etcetera.
R- Oh my word! We had to. Yes.
(300)
What else were your parents strict about? For example, things like coming in at night and swearing and that sort of thing?
R - There was no swearing at home at all. None. I only remember - I don't think I should put that down.
Go on.
R- (Cut it off, cut it off, cut it off.) I have never repeated that to anyone, not had occasion to, but seeing you mentioned it.
And what about, when you got a bit older, going out at night and things like that?
R - Oh we were expected to return in reasonable hours. And mostly we had a time and we had to be in within that time yes.
And what about your sisters going out?
R – Same. Same yes.
He let them go out though did he?
R - Oh yes, but they had not the same flexibility that boys had. It’s true, no. They were busy indoors reading, sewing, knitting, doing domestic matters, you see? Whereas boys, more than girls, though girls did go out to play. But it was the boys who you know enjoyed themselves and …
If you were naughty or disobedient or something did they punish you?
R - They did.
How?
(350)
R- Well it depends on what date you see but when we were at Darwen, before we left Darwen, we had a leather strap on the kitchen mantelpiece hung on a rail on the kitchen mantelpiece and it was used.
On all of you?
R - Well, I remember it for myself, I don’t know about the others.
And was that your father who would use it or would your mother use it as well?
R – No, father.
Father yes. So your punishment had to await his return?
R – Yes, or it was administered instantaneously if he was about, and I objected but you see (cut it off again)
Did you have prayers at home when you went to bed at night.
R - Oh yes, we said that, we were taught to say our prayers and to include all members of the family, you see? God bless father, God bless mother, etcetera. We kept that up. On our knees by the bedside.
That's right, yes.
R- Yes. And as far as I know it was kept up quite a long time.
Yes. When you had a birthday, was it different from any other day?
R - You have asked me that.
I was asking about food then.
R- Oh well yes, we'd a birthday present you see. And something which the parents thought would please and something which did please. I’ve very happy recollections of having birthday presents.
Were they were they often made for you, rather than bought.
R- Oh no, they were bought, you see?
(400)
Perhaps your younger brothers and sisters made things for you, did they?
R - Well now, later on perhaps one or two would do something which they’d made, or a drawing or something in wood they had carved, which was a special favour shall we say? But normally birthday presents were something which they thought the recipient would like, you see?
(15 min)
And can you remember visitors calling on birthdays or parties?
R – Yes, I can remember the pastors, we were Wesleyan Methodists. You mean ministers, pastors? What did you say?
Parties, birthday parties.
R - Oh I beg your pardon. I thought you were talking about pastors.
No it was probably the way I said it. I said any visitors or, or parties that you had on your birthday.
R - Well normally we had a sufficient number to form a party in the family, but now and again a friend would be invited, yes. Or two, but we had no big show, it was just a little extra and a pleasant occasion.
How did you, how did the family spend Christmas and New Year.
R - At home. Invariably.
And would, perhaps your mother's parents or your father’s parents visit you or…
(450)
R- Well no they didn’t you see, because my mother, her mother had died early, her father lived 150 miles away and married to a stepmother so to speak. On the other hand my father's father lived in the same road, at the bottom of the hill whereas we were at the top but he lost his, my grandmother died oh about 1892. I just remember what she was like plus recollections from a photograph of course. So we didn't have visitors as such.
Not any of your ...
R- We had, we had presents and relatives sent presents and we’d, we'd regular presents from our parents and uncle George and, and Mr Helm. That's right, there wore three lots, we looked forward regularly, and we got them.
And who was Mr Helm?
R - He was a friend of my mother and her aunt who as I said was eight years older. This Miss Sedgwick who was a school mistress, you see? And her first school was at Hapton and Mr Helm lived ... at Hapton, he lived at Hapton and so he was an early friendship you see. And they’d kept it up with the family yes.
Yes. How did the family spend the Easter Holidays?
(500)
R - We didn’t. We just stayed at home, never dreamt of going away.
Was it a celebrated time of the year or did …
R - Oh yes we attended church services but we were at the school, the school was on holidays, and we just entertained ourselves in the ordinary way. We never dreamt of going away.
Did you have, can you remember anything special about Easter eggs and things like this?
R – Yes. My mother would boil some eggs hardy and put some colouring material in the water. Mostly deep red. I don’t know what material it was.
Cochineal perhaps was it?
R - That's it. Anyhow, my recollection is deep red you see? Now again, you'll say 'What did we do at Easter?’ Well, in those days Easter Monday was known as egg rolling Monday, and I remember father took us over to Preston in a horse drawn vehicle, a cab I suppose, to take part in the egg rolling at Havenham. Park. I remember that. Coloured eggs you see?
Yes. They would all be hard boiled eggs?
R - Hard boiled eggs that’s right.
Getting splattered all over the hill.
R- Well there we are, that’s …
And they, the aim I suppose was to have a complete egg at the bottom was it?
R - I suppose it was. I was so young that it was simply an event as far as I was concerned and…
Chocolate eggs though, did you have chocolate eggs?
(550)
R- Chocolate eggs were just coming in shall we say as far an we were concerned and yes, we would probably have a chocolate egg to celebrate the weekend you see? Divided amongst the lot.
It wouldn’t go very far would it?
R – No, it depends on the size of it but still, no you see, again, the makers were constantly… It is the old story of supply and demand. They were then, by this time, in a capacity to make on mass production. Fry’s, Rowntree’s and so on. And of course they made these eggs and Cadbury’s. And they were, they helped to create the demand by putting them on the market, see? And of course children all like chocolate eggs.
Yes. Did you have any musical instruments in your home?
R – Yes, a piano.
And who played it?
R- My mother, which had been hers before she was married. Because she taught music.
Oh yes.
R - As a side line before she was married, she was a school mistress. Yes the piano was a Kirkman, a make with a good reputation, but it was a wooden frame and therefore didn't keep in tune as an iron frame piano does.
And, and that was the only musical instrument you had was it?
R - Oh yes.
Did any of you sing?
R - Well my mother was a singer, used to be on the choir, and I developed a voice, sang as a boy but, that’s all.
Yes. Did you have family sing songs and get-togethers?
(000)
R - Yes. On Sunday, Sunday nights you see, Sunday evenings yes.
Yes. And perhaps at Christmas time?
R - Oh yes, and Christmas Carols, that’s right.
(25 min)
Were there any games you played in the house, either with your parents or without them?
R - Yes ... what's that game? Tiddley-winks. Snakes and Ladders was just coming into prominence. Later draughts and chess but no cards. Cards were taboo. The cards were known as the devil's prayer book.
I have heard that before yes. Were they wooden boards that you played these games on?
R – No, cardboard mostly.
Cardboard. Yes. And did you ever have any particular games you played with your parents.
R - Well, I played chess and draughts with my father. The rest, I played games with the family. I was fond of stamp collecting as a spare time, a hobby.
Have you still got your stamp album?
R – Yes.
Is it a beautiful leather one? I bet it is.
R – No, it's a cloth bound one. But I intend to pass it on, to a grand, any grandson who shows promise in that line. I’m waiting.
Have you kept it on through the years or not?
R- Oh no, I stopped.
Did the family have a regular newspaper or magazine?
R- Yes. The Manchester Guardian.
That was a daily.
(650)
R- A Daily. The Darwen News, a weekly, The Methodist Times, a Sunday paper. Later I got the Boys Own Paper. Indeed I once got a certificate from the editor for something I had sent up.
Can you remember what it was you sent up?
R- I forget now, but I think the editor was called Hutchinson. His name came to mind the some time ago, because he was referred to in the Daily Telegraph, some reference. And, yes it was a good paper.
Con you remember any magazines that you had? Periodicals?
R- Occasionally the Strand Magazine. No I think that we had Methodists papers, apart from the Times there was missionary paper and the like, but you can’t call them newspapers.
No. Did your mother have a women’s magazine at all?
R- No. You see that side of journalism has developed in my lifetime. A man called Harmsworth got going about 1900. There were two brothers and I think they established the Daily Mail you see? And as printing became more popular, more paper, the country was more prosperous, enterprising journalists established papers. To cope with the volume of people who had become literate you see?
[The Harmsworth brothers became Lord Northcliffe {1865-1922} and Lord Rothermere. {1868-1940}]
Yes. Did any of the family belong to a library?
R - No.
Was there a library in Darwen?
R - I believe there was a Co-op library. There wasn’t a free library, a Carnegie library until about 1908. And I remember Andrew Carnegie coming to open it.
Yea, And when you moved to St Annes?
(700)
R - We had a library in connection with our Sunday School, we had no public library, until 1902. This Carnegie found the money, but that's still going round the corner,
And did you borrow books from this Methodist library?
R- Oh yes, that's where I got my liking for reading. And the authors were G.A. Henty, R.M. Ballantyne and so on.
And what sort of books did they write?
R- Oh, boys adventure books. ‘The Cornet of Horse’ for instance, 'The Tiger of Mysore, those were Henty's. R.M. Ballantyne was 'Coral Island'. Oh, then ‘Robinson Crusoe’ and ‘Swiss Family Robinson'. I think the ‘Swiss Family Robinson’ I enjoyed most of all, because they were shipwrecked and they managed to develop a happy life on land you see?
(30 min)
The sense of self-sufficiency appealed to you did it?
R- Yes, very strongly.
And did you read that book more than once?
R- Yes I think I read it twice but I’m normally not a repetitive reader. No.
No. I just wondered with it being perhaps your favourite one, whether you had read it more than once.
R- No, I read ‘Pilgrims Progress’, I was rather impressed with that.
Good for you.
R- One of my favourite characters was Mr Ready to Halt, he was always ready to halt to talk to somebody.
That's what you did this morning wasn’t it?
R – Yes, there you are.
Did your parents encourage you to read these sorts of books?
R- well, I’ll put it another way around, the enterprise was on our part because we saw the books and we had the opportunity. My eldest sister was a great, much greater reader than I was. So much so that she was rather frowned on for spending so much time reading,
Being a bookworm.
R – Yes, she was. Anyhow she established a private school which is now an institution of 600 pupils.
Yes, you have mentioned that to me before. Were there any books in the house?
(750)
R – Yes, several, which had been handed down, largely on my mother's side. There were a few books which my father brought in, mostly in connection with industry. One was a series of volumes by a Dr Ure on Arts and Manufactures. This is a man of the early days who described the early processes which were mostly hand made you see. Pottery, Paper making, Textile Printing and all the rest of it. But my mother brought books which are of a religious persuasion which had come from her grandfather mostly. And one I remember particularly was ‘The Hand of God in History’, I've still got it. I was impressed by the title and I've recently referred to it but the rather lurid wood cut sketches, illustrations and, and some of the arguments seem rather far fetched, but nevertheless it's a profound statement which rather appeals to me, and, in my opinion, the Hand of God still continues in the development of the world.
Did you have books that were your own, that perhaps you won from Sunday School or ...
R – Yes I did.
School prizes?
R - Yes, I did. I got regularly books for attending school, Sunday School you see.
Can you remember any of the books you chose or the books that you had chosen for you?
R- Yes. One was Oliver Twist. And another was Kenilworth, Walter Scott And there was ... I've got them upstairs, I can’t just recall the titles but we were able to select what we wanted you see? And we treasured them.
(800)
Yes, and it would have a little sticker in the front?
(35 min)
R- That’s right, that's it.
And can you remember getting school prizes as well?
R - Yes
They would be in the form of books as well would they?
R - Yes they were. Yes.
For diligence and progress and things.
R – Yes, I have quite a number of them shall I say.
I am sure you have yes. All the family were interested in reading were they?
R- In varying degrees yes they all had periods for books. Yes
Did you have any toys?
R - Yes I remember I had a little horse and cart when I was very small.
You could pull it along, could you?
R - With a string. And one of my treasures was a steam engine, which would operate on methylated spirits and it would run by the pistons you see?
And your mother?
That’d be valuable today, I don’t know where it's gone to.
Yes. And your mother would be in fear and dread thinking you are spilling the methylated spirit I suppose.
R- She was. And making a mess of the carpet and so on.
Can you remember any of the toys that the rest of the family had?
R - Oh, dolls were a regular outfit for the girls, the two girls who were sisters and eventually a little doll's pram.
Would the dolls be made out of plaster?
R - No they were made with pot heads and glass eyes and straw or shaving filled bodies.
Soft dolls then.
(850)
R- Yes, soft dolls.
I want again to ask you what did your mother do in her spare time in the house but I suppose your answer to that would be that she didn’t have any spare time.
R – That’s true. We were glad to see her resting now and again. She was a very active woman and anyhow she lived till she was 80.
Did she ever perhaps sit down after you had been all put to bed?
R - I would think not
But then perhaps it was mending time, was it?
R - Possibly yes. Mending, darning socks.
And what did your father do when he’d return from work at night?
R- Oh he’d read. He wasn't a literary man but he was a man interested in what went on in life and we had the daily papers and the weekly papers and he read his Bible now and again. And then we went to Church and Sunday school on the Sunday, and occasionally we had meetings so we never felt that we had nothing to do. None of us you see? Full programme.
What time would you get up in the morning?
R- Oh well I would think half past seven. We’d to be at school at nine o'clock. And I had a twenty minutes walk. So we should be off shortly after half past eight so it just gave an hour, more or less, for getting ready and having breakfast and doing what other chores there may be.
And would your mother get up quite a bit before half past seven?
R - Oh yes. She would get up to see her husband off you see because he caught the quarter to eight train see, so she'd be up half past six.
At what time did the children go to bed?
(900)
R - Oh, we kept reasonable hours We were all in bed in good time, put it that way. And different stages, the youngest went to bed first you see?
Oh yes.
R – Naturally. And so on. But we were all in bed for ten o'clock.
(40 min)
And what about your parents?
R - Well they wouldn't be much later. No they wouldn't.
Did you have any pets?
R - On one occasion I was allowed to have some white mice. And then they started to breed so they got taken from me.
Where did you have them?
R - In the yard. In a cage you know? My school boyfriend next door kept pigeons. And I used to watch those pigeons and indeed go in and help him occasionally and I was able to copy the cooing you know? I can do it now.
Go on then.
R- Coo, Coo, Coo.
So you can too. That's very realistic. Yes. Were they homing pigeons or were they…
R - Homing pigeons, yes. And fantails, and tumblers.
Oh I don’t know what tumblers are.
R- Oh they go up in the air and they roll back down, they roll backwards way and downy.
Never seen them.
R- Oh yes. I once, when I moved to Blackburn, when I was about 18, my father got me a pair of tumblers, but I hadn't them for very long. I don’t know why I got rid of them.
Did you go to, I don't know what they are called, when they take the pigeons off to race them. Did you…
R- No.
You didn’t go with the lad next door? And you can't remember having any other pet? Or the rest of the family having any other pet?
R- Well over the years we had one or two cats but we had no dogs.
For any reason?
R – Well, not until, wait a minute we had ... my brother had one. One of my young brothers had one when he was about 18 but I should be about 25. We’d a fox terrier, but we never went in for keeping animals. For one thing they need accommodation you see and on the other they need attention and we had a very active life without the animals you see?
(950)
Did either your father or mother or brothers or sisters smoke?
R- My father smoked a pipe and occasional cigars. No cigarettes. As a rule, in those days, cigars. And, I must say the aroma from a good cigar which was lit up in the hall before he went out left a very delightful effect.
Yes, the smell of the cigar sort of evokes a good ...
R - Of a good quality cigar, and before it’s been smoked a long time. If you get it heavy it affects the curtains and what not if you ever smoke a full cigar in a room. But if you happen to light part of it and go out it just leaves…
Now. Your father smoked a cigar or pipe.
R- Yes.
What about any of the rest of the family as they grew up?
R- No, no.
Nobody.
R- Oh well. No we were not a law breaking, we didn’t go in for it. One of our younger brothers did a little bit but we were never, we weren't what you’d call a smoking family. No.
No. Just frowned upon.
R - Well yes. But of course one factor was the cost you see?
Yes of course. Can you remember when the family had its first radio?
R- Yes.
Or wireless I should say shouldn’t I.
R – Well, one of my brothers made a set, what they called the cats whisker, that's a radio isn’t it? You don’t mean a radiogram do you?
(45 min)
No, a wireless.
R- A wireless, yes well. When did it come out, do you happen to remember the year? Well in the year, whatever it was, I would think it’d be about 1926-7. But one of my brothers built a cat’s whisker set, and he brought it round and of course we were thrilled you see. And then of course, in time, we acquired radiograms but we were all busy. I was busy, I had really no spare time to go into these things, as for myself you see. But that’s the answer to that question.
Yes. Right, thank you.
SCG/03 June 2003
4,787 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/06
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 9th OF FEBRUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Now then, what I want to do this week Mr Singleton is take you back and find out one or two things. We’ll get away from the structured interview this week from the list of questions. Now the first thing I’d like to ask you is about your recollections of the Boer War, or the African War as you’d call it. What can you remember about the years before the Boer war, what caused it and the events of the Boer war. Now, there is a nice big question for you. [First Boer War 1880-1881. Second was 1899-1902.]
(50)
R- That's true . Well, I was ten when the Boer war started, ten years of age. [1899] And, my early recollections were due to collecting cigarette cards because Ogden’s, and Wills’, and Player’s of those days were in very keen competition, and we had coloured cards of generals and, on the back we had details of their careers, you see? Well now, that brought us vividly into the, what was going on from conversations at home and reading the papers. And I was an early reader of the Manchester Guardian and remember the line drawings then of the battle formations and the references to what was going on - Spion Kop Ladysmith, Mafeking and the rest, you see. And, I can remember the names; Sir Redvers Buller who was at Ladysmith, Sir Robert Baden-Powell at Mafeking, and then the leader of the campaign I believe was Lord Roberts and his aide-de-camp was Kitchener you see? Well now, after the war I remember there was a camp at Squire’s Gate, Blackpool and it was announced that Lord Roberts and Lord Kitchener would attend and I walked over from St Annes and I remember them entering the field on horseback. Crossing, seen Kitchener; well of course, they were the bright lights of that campaign. I remember the excitement that took place, following the various - I was going to say defeats - it wasn't a walk through, a walk over by any means. And
(5 min)
my impression is that the government of the day thought it was an easy, it would be an easy matter to win the battle. But the Boers adopted what we would now call guerrilla tactics and they pipped our soldiers off in all kinds of unlikely places and so on you see. So we had a very difficult time and there was great concern about the siege of Ladysmith, which was, to a large
(150)
extent made famous to school boys by Winston Churchill who was only a journalist and he escaped by climbing the wall of this, of the town, and waiting until the sentry had gone past before dropping over and making his escape. Well, that filled the headlines and, as it happens Winston Churchill’s birthday was on the same day as mine, the thirtieth of November, he was fifteen years older than I was so he was twenty-five at that time you see. He was a society man, his father of course had been a member of the government, Lord Randolph Churchill, and the headlines in the papers were full of this marvellous escape, and I had an interest in his career ever since. Well, to revert ...
(200)
If we could, if I could just make a suggestion, could we go back to before the war. For instance, in the run up to the war, do you, can you remember anything about Lloyd George and the pro-Boers?
R- Oh yes. Now Lloyd George was unique, he was of what you would call the left wing of the Liberal party. He was a very gifted speaker and early developed an insight into political affairs. He was brought up in a non-conformist religious atmosphere and he clearly
(250)
sensed that this war was a war of aggression and he came to the conclusion that we were wrong in attacking the Boers as we did. And I think the two other men that provoked the war, one was Cecil Rhodes who founded Rhodesia and the other was Joseph Chamberlain. However, the war came and whilst we won by force of arms it wasn't long before the Liberal Government under Sir Campbell Bannerman decided to virtually hand back South Africa to the control of the Boers on the understanding that animosities would be forgotten and that those who lived in South Africa would make a fresh start. That's my recollection of the situation.
(10 min)(300)
Yes. When you say that the two people that you consider to have been leading lights in starting the Boer war were Cecil. Rhodes and Joe Chamberlain, what do you think were the motives that drove them?
R- Well, as far as Cecil Rhodes was concerned I would say control over the area for the benefit of the natural resources, diamonds, gold and the like and as far as Joe Chamberlain was concerned, my recollection is that he was accused of Jingoism which was a favourite word in those days which was if you like - boosting the British interests.
Yes. There was a rhyme wasn't there, ‘We don't want to fight, but by Jingo if we do, we have got the ships, we have got the men, and we have got the money too.’
R- Yes. Well that was it. We had the power and we had been successful and indeed we had contributed a lot to the welfare of the world at that time, because, in view of the control of the seas by our Navy, there was a period known as Pax Britannica you see? Of course, looking back, it would
(350)
appear to have been a mistake but it's very difficult to say because there is a streak in the Boers which is not compatible to human freedom which must have existed before 1900 and probably had been a contributory factor to the difficulties which Rhodes and Chamberlain were faced with you see? And of course we see now, eighty years after, the effects of this policy which is one of the great problems before the human race at the moment. A wonderful country, delightful climate, so I am told - with possibly one of the best in the world for living and with natural resources unrivalled and yet this policy of apartheid is casting a blight over that part of Africa.
(400)
What were your own sympathies at that time? Would you say that you sympathised with the, let's call Rhodes and Chamberlain, let's call them the imperialistic point of view, or Lloyd George and the pro-Boers?
R- Well, my father was an active Liberal and naturally my inclinations were as his and Lloyd George was held in great regard by the Liberal Party.
(15 min)
And whilst I wouldn’t say the family took an active part as pro-Boers, I would say my father had a lot of sympathy with them. But of course communications then were quite different to what communications are now and we’d not the same information before us. But in the event, I think Lloyd George was right in calling the attention of the nation to the, well, how shall we call it, to the wrong done to the people on the spot.
What, in your understanding then, apart from the political attitudes, what in your understanding were the actual events which led up to the start of the war. When I say events, you know, the actual reasons why. What pushed Britain over the edge? I mean I haven't to prompt you I know, but I’m thinking obviously of things like the arguments over the franchise in South Africa and things like that. But what were the reasons as you understood them at the time? And perhaps even more important, what were the reasons that the Government at the time were putting forward for going to war? Because I think, well I'm sure that you are intelligent enough to realise that there could be a difference between those two things, between what the actual reasons were and what the reasons were which were put forward to the public.
R- Well, I was nine when the war started and twelve when it was over, so that my political inclinations were by instinct and family opinion rather than my own. I don’t recollect any run up to the situation, I simply remember the fact that the war had started. Of course, at that period, Britain had developed its Empire, and it played a wonderful influence throughout the world, but we did, as a nation, tend to be possessive, and of course this led to jealousy and envy on the part of other nations. But in the event I think history will show that in spite of our mistakes we were the best colonisers that's ever appeared on this earth. Latterly of course, again, self interest and greed keeps cropping up, which is largely the result of individuals on the spot. It may not be normal policy but these things develop and then trouble starts.
(20 min)(500)
You are asking me how it started. Well, we had been successful all through the peace, all through the years and I remember at the school to which I went we had a retired captain, regular army captain, who'd been through Aldershot and knew the ropes. And he used to tell us a lot about what was going on you see, which, coupled with the cigarette cards information you see and made it rather vivid to we schoolboys. Well, we had - we, that is the British - had had several campaigns. There was one in Afghanistan, that was before my time, and I remember references to the Khyber Pass. And then I think we had something in Bechuanaland and so on. And we assumed that we should always be successful, that we were - shall we say - running the world almost by Divine Right at that period. And the nation was wealthy because we had been pioneers in the industrial era and as such, we had acquired a lot of wealth by supplying goods which the world wanted before the development of competition. Now of course by the turn of the century we were feeling the effect of competition. America, Germany, in particular. But it was rather, the war was rather a salutary lesson to us and it rather hurt our pride. Now then of course that would lead me on to the next war which I know more about but ...
Yes. We'll come on to that, we’ll come on to that. I'm very interested in something that you were just beginning to talk about there, but we'll keep in chronological order. While the war was progressing, you have already mentioned the fact that the Boers used grossly unfair tactics in that they didn’t stand there in the middle of the plain and wait to be shot.
R - Exactly.
They tended to hide behind hills, shoot somebody and then run off. And this was a big lesson for the British Army of course.
R - By the way, yes, and there were two men in particular for the Boers who excelled as generals: one was Jan Smuts and the other was Louis Botha. And they didn't half give us a pasting. No, we suffered from wounded pride at the end of the war.
(600)
That’s it, yes. Well, I was talking to a man who actually fought in the Boer war, and he said that looking back it really was ridiculous. He said we went out there and actually, I remember he said - that the army was still fighting in red coats.
R - Yes.
And he said that we stood in the middle of the plain in squares, like we did at Waterloo!
R – Yes. Oh yes, unfortunately our military leaders, they had not developed at the same pace as industry and other walks of life. Bear in mind the defence forces were the choice, sometimes the second choice of well educated people who if they did not follow in their parents, did not follow their parents in charge of the estates, they entered the services, defence services or the Church. Now to a certain extent that was understandable in view of the education system of the day, but as a nation we had been so successful that I think it got to our heads and those in the services had really a good time. They were called upon to look after our interests all over the world at key positions. Bahamas, Bermuda, Gibraltar, Aden, India, etcetera and they tended to enjoy themselves rather than get down to serious matters of war strategy, because it was never expected. The 1914 war came as a surprise to the majority.
(650)
So would you say that, during the early stages of the Boer war, you have already said it was a blow to our pride, do you think that in some ways it was, it should have been a lesson to our military tacticians. It should have made them start thinking that there were other sorts of warfare than the ones which had prevailed on the big battlefields of the 18th century, of the 19th century rather. As I say this Billy Brooks, he said in fact that the Boers called us Rednecks. He said that was the nickname for the English troops. One of the things that happened during the Boer war of course was the fact that - and I realise that this is something that a lot of people don't like to admit - but we actually did invent the concentration camps. They were, I think it was either Campbell Bannerman or Lloyd George that described them at that time as methods of barbarism. Would you say that people in this country realized at the time just what was being done there. I’m not thinking in terms of shock horror stories about cruelty or anything like that but the principles that were being used. The fact that it was thought to be quite right to take people from a certain area, men, women and children and concentrate them behind barbed wire in one place. Do you think that it was fully realised in this country just what sort of principles were being, well, abused would be a good thing to say?
(700)
R - No, the people didn’t know speaking generally. And what is more, they didn’t give credit to the natives for having any intelligence. Now this was highly understandable, because we’d not much information in any event, but there were two sources of feed-back of information to the country and one was from the missionary societies of which there were several and which did considerable pioneering work in their simple way. And the other was the early traders. Now, trade with India was largely done by general government licence I think. Any large undertaking had to receive a government sanction, but there was still a great amount of freedom in which to carry out the business. Then the producers of cloth and wallpaper and other goods began to spread their wings and developed what we now call overseas trade and we used to get a certain amount of information from the individuals who returned home. But you must remember the telephone was still in its infancy, so was the telegraph and communication was relatively slow.
(750)
And so we didn't get, the general population didn't get to know. Of course, a point to have in mind is that the population in 1889 when I was born was less than twenty millions and today I think it's fifty seven millions. Well now, the very size of the increase is astonishing, it only came to my knowledge by coming across an old book, and when I realized that there are virtually three times the number of people now living in this country than when I was born it makes you think of the consequences which follow. But the rapid and tremendous development in what you might call instant communication now, as compared with communication services of those days is just almost beyond comprehension. Yes.
That’s a very important thing that I want to come on to later on. Now I’m going to make an assumption now that you had an attitude to imperialism before the Boer war whether it had been learnt at school or from your parents or anything like that. Now speaking personally, I’m not talking about the country just for the moment, would you say that the Boer war and what you saw of the conduct of the war and the results made any difference to your attitude towards imperialism?
R- Oh yes. It had an effect because I was brought up to believe in justice, and justice for the individual irrespective of his colour of skin. And consequently the jingoists and the imperialists and such like were not looked on favourably by myself, and we thought there were adopted rather dangerous policies, and that has remained with me all the time.
(800)
I think that the idea of justice is being weakened over the present century and there were many side effects accordingly but that's another subject.
(35 min)
Yes. I quite agree with you but as you say, that’s a far [bigger story] that’s really outside the scope of today's conversation. Now speaking generally about the country, would you say that - the same question - would you say that the Boer war had any effect on attitudes towards imperialism in the country as a whole. Did it start to make people think about things like imperialism and colonialism and foreign expansion?
R- I would say yes, it had a salutary effect and by this time I would think the opinion of the nation was that we had enough on our hands and that there was no need to have ambitions to acquire any more possessions as we called them. Just then, hovering on the horizon was the effect of competitive nations which I have already mentioned, America and Germany, and consequently our attention was turned to our own development and to a certain extent, the preservation of the status quo. And also within the country was a conscious development of welfare. The turning point was in the election of the Liberal government in 1906. Now, do you want me to go on there or what?
We’ll just go on to that.
R- Because, because there is a sequence you see?
That's it. Yes there is, you are quite right.
R- You see, to understand the development of the way things have gone, it is necessary to understand the conditions of the time and this is what you are trying to get at.
That's it, you are quite right. Now during the period of the end of the 19th century and possibly moving into the beginning of the 20th century, forget about the Boer war and the First World Wary just for the moment and imperialism. How about movements for tariff reform and the argument between the free traders and the people who wanted tariff barriers to protect this country against foreign competition, what do you remember about them?
R- Well, free trade and tariff reform was the great bone of contention between the Tories and Liberals of my early days. Now to understand the situation I think you should go back a hundred years or so because the landed proprietors of this country based on London lost their power by the enterprise of industry, of the industrial north. and there arose great rivalry between these two, not only lines of thought but habits if you like.
(40 min)
The Southerners, and bear in mind you must have in mind that at that time more so than now there were the effects of history and different invasions. Now Lancashire and Yorkshire, where the great industrial
(900)
development took place largely, although you can’t omit Birmingham and other places, but primarily the inspiration came from the north, and the inventiveness of those people on consumer goods and the machines for making consumer goods, coupled with the development of steam. Now, the people in the South, a line drawn from the, at an angle from the Humber to the Severn, in one sense splits the nation in two and you will always get a different approach to the subject from the Southern people from the approach from the North. That*s inherent. When the old regime shall we call it, lost their power to the industrialists of the North it created many problems. Agriculture for instance and so on. And naturally nobody likes to lose their authority or trade, so the agricultural interests got together for protection. Now the industrialists wanted free trade, not only in this country but abroad and therefore to get paid for their goods they wanted the products of those countries to where they sent their goods with the result that we got cheap imports of food. Now I would think, if I may put in a word here, that the extreme free traders and the extreme conservatives were both wrong because it affected the, shall we say, the rights of certain individuals and it upset the rhythm of life to an unprecedented degree.
(950)
Not only that, the cheap food came in and was consumed without the understanding of its effects. Now in the simple agricultural life people generally were healthy and were limited to wholesome food. Now, with the introduction of food from all over the world we developed fancy tastes and other things
(45 min)
and that’s had an effect on nutritional value, that’s as a side effect of the struggle. But the struggle was on and it was intense and Joe Chamberlain, who had been a Liberal, then a Liberal Unionist, became a member of the Tory Party and he advocated tariff reforms and talked about the German Zollverein system. As a matter of fact ...
(975)
SCG/04 June 2003
3,730 words.
[SG note. Anyone who has read other transcripts will have noted that these interviews with George Singleton have a very low word count. The reason for this is that George was a very deliberate man, if you asked him a question he would sit and think about it, formulate his answer and then deliver it. Once spoken, that was it, the definitive answer as far as he was concerned.]
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/07
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 9th OF FEBRUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
R- As a matter of fact, in this campaign, Chamberlain came to Preston. I think it was in 1901 or 1902 but at any rate my father took me to here him in the Preston Public Hall which I remember very well. The feeling was intense because the cotton trade thought it would damage their prospects of trade and the Conservatives thought that the agricultural interests and certain other interests should receive protection. Now, as I said earlier, on reflection I think the extremists were wrong because there is a case for keeping the farming interest sound economically, as it was a case for not restricting the freedom of trade in other countries. Well, I don't remember the details of the heckling but it was a rowdy meeting. He was quite a
(100)
handsome looking man at the time, always wore a flower, an orchid and he had a monocle. Very attractive man, and a good speaker. Well his policy did not suit the Conservatives in Lancashire and their members of Parliament had voted for free trade against their party on the question of free trade.
And this of course was the famous split wasn’t it in the Conservative Party?
R - Yes well now, this led up to the Election of 1906 when the Liberals got in after a long interval and there was great excitement. By this time Winston Churchill had taken up politics and he was elected as a Member of Parliament for an Oldham constituency. Well, in the formation of the cabinet, under the Prime Minister Sir Henry Campbell Bannerman…
(5 min)(150)
I think that it’s probably important here to just mention the fact that Churchill was in fact elected as a Liberal wasn't he?
R- Yes.
Because a lot of people associate Winston Churchill automatically with the Conservatives but he was actually elected as a Liberal, he was a Liberal.
R- He was, that’s true. Yes, it's true. Well then, it was a Cabinet of talents. Sir Henry Campbell Bannerman, Herbert Asquith, David Lloyd George, Winston Churchill, Augustine Birrell, [Richard] Haldane whose Christian name escapes my tongue, Sir [Edward] Grey and a few others. Well, they set about their job very vigorously and
(200)
there were many changes in the law of the land leading to the foundation of the welfare state because Lloyd George introduced, yes he was the Chancellor of the Exchequer wasn’t he and he introduced this budget whereby old age pensioners got five shillings a week, and the - now what was it? And he introduced a system of - I forget what it was called but - stamps worth 9d. for 4d.
National Insurance
R - National Insurance. The employee paid 4d.
Yes, you used the phrase then ‘Nine pence for four pence’ that was the famous phrase. Yes.
R - That was it, that was a famous phrase ‘Nine pence for four pence’. The employers made a contribution and the government made a small contribution making up the 9d. you see? That was the beginning. And since then of course it's gone up by leaps and bounds.
(250)
Can I interrupt you there please Mr Singleton? Just one thing about that period, I must admit that I am not too clear about this in my own mind. That was the period surely between then and about, say about 1910 when there was the famous battle with the Lords wasn't it? Over the Lloyd George putting in a budget, some said a deliberately provocative budget and the Lords refused to pass it.
R – Yes.
And so in effect took away the right of the Commons to govern because obviously if the Lords could block the passing of the finance bill, it made government impossible and it meant that the Lords actually had a complete veto of the House of Commons. What do you remember of that?
R - Oh well that’s perfectly true. Well, he introduced land legislation and the idea was that the value of land was due not to the individual land owners but it was due to the development of the country. Therefore he introduced a scheme whereby the landlord an any transaction should
(10 min)
pay a percentage of the price as a duty, and I think it was called ‘Increment Duty’ and this was produced, this legislation took place in 1910 and we had then what was known an the famous ‘Form 4’ to be filled up describing the ownership of the land and all the particulars about it which was in effect a new Domesday Book. The landowners and the Tories fought against
(300)
it bitterly. So much so that they threatened to block the Bill because it was a money bill, money had something to do with it. It was a money bill and therefore they could block it. And Lloyd George said “Well, if you do we’ll create a sufficient number of Liberal Peers to swamp the voting in the chamber.” Well, I don't know how many they have now but it would have been fantastic.
I think it was about 250 or 300 liberal Peers.
R – Yes, but anyhow. Eventually the legislation was passed, district valuers were formed, and I remember the one being formed in Blackburn. They appointed the local architect within a few years of his retirement, who know the area, to be the government valuer for the area. I also remember the first Labour exchange being established, in Darwin Street in Blackburn.
What year?
(350)
R – 1909 or 1910 I think it was. It was the year that I was appointed as a manager of a cotton mill. I was only twenty but I remember the manager of the Labour Exchange calling on me to explain the system you see. Well now, whilst that was going on there were other great and important developments, Haldane was the War Minister and he established the Territorial Army in place of the old volunteers. This was of very great importance as it enabled some of the Territorials to go over to France when the 1914 war started to assist the regular army in defending the country. And he put this territorial army on a war footing and the nation owes him a great deal for that preparation. Now I remember the other political battles about Northern Ireland. And a man called
(400)
Edward Carson and an able lawyer called F.E. Smith, those two in particular championed the cause of Ulster and [supported their cause] the suggestion had been that Ulster and the remainder of Ireland should be united. Now this was the nearest to a revolt, to a national, not international – what’s the word for war?
Civil war?
(15 min)
R- As a civil war. Yes, civil war. Feelings, I remember feelings ran very high indeed. Threats were made and the situation got very desperate. Indeed there was a certain amount of gun running and I believe a man called Sir Roger Casement was eventually executed, was a party to that kind of transaction. And, at any rate he was considered to be a traitor was shot later. Well feelings ran so high that there was almost a revolt in the army. At that time, on the military plain near Dublin was the famous area known an the Curragh
(450)
which was a training ground and there had been a threatened revolt of officers, who would not obey the instructions from the War Office. This was the most serious political incident that I recall, other than the declaration of war. It was very serious indeed.
What year was this?
R – 1914. Now, it so happened that a colleague and I were instructed to go to France to make a valuation for a weaving shed and calico print works and the studios in Paris which belonged to the Calico Printers Association. On our way we spent a night in London - this was in March 1914 - and we decided to visit the House of Commons and we got in the public gallery and it was a sight I shall never forget. The House was full, this
(500)
Curragh incident was the subject of the debate. And I remember the War Minister of the day, I think he was called [Sir Edward Grey] well generally I think someone called Grey had something to do with it, and that he offered his resignation or something like that. And the House was tense and on both sides there were all the great figures of the political era, on both sides of the House. It was a sight
(20 min)
never to be forgotten and only by chance that I happened to be there you see? And I think I’m right in saying it was Grey but I know Haldane was the War Minister or had been, there may have been come changes, R.B. Haldane, I think that was the man, R.B. Haldane. At any rate it was a very serious issue. Well we went on our way, did our job, came back, and then on the third of August. Oh, and then in July there had been talk of trouble with Germany but nobody thought it was really serious until, I think it was Sunday August the third or the fourth. Word got round that war had been declared - and I walked down to the offices of the Northern Daily Telegraph in Blackburn and there I saw the poster in the window ‘War Declared’ you see? We all knew it was with Germany, but we little knew how it was going to affect us.
(550)
Very good. Now that’s absolutely fascinating but I want too stop you, I want to tidy up one or two little bits now because I can see that we are going to get into the war. This is alright, it’s great. One small point, but I think it was regarded as a large point then. When we were talking about, I think it was the Finance Bill of 1908 originally but it finished up getting passed in 1910, but anyway the famous provocative budget that Lloyd George presented which included the land valuation,
R- That's right.
the tax on increment. The view has been put forward, I have read the opinion that one of the things which frightened the landowners more than the tax really, that disturbed them more than the tax was the fact that in order to make that tax work there had to be, as you so rightly said, the equivalent of a modern Domesday book, a land register. And it frightened the landowners even more particularly, because there is one segment of the political scene which we haven't mentioned, the rise of Socialism. And it was the fact that Philip Snowden, the so called Iron Chancellor, was known to be a strong proponent of these very things, a land register and tax on land. And the view has been put forward that a lot of people could see a situation where the Liberals, having introduced the land register for what was a very minor tax really - it wasn't a really deep biting tax - but they could see the situation where it could virtually be nationalisation of land in that the ownership of land could be taxed so heavily as to make it unprofitable. Would you say that that was a correct assessment of the landowners view then, that really it wasn’t the tax so much as the fact that the land register was going to make it so easy for future governments, perhaps Socialist, to tax land very very heavily?
(600)
R - Well I would say it was a combination because the tax I think was going to be 25%.
So much? I always thought it was less than that.
R - Yes. No I think it was, I think it was 25%.
Yes.
R - Therefore that was a big slice of any sale you see? Andy at the same time, you are quite right, there was the fear of this Socialism which was creeping up. As a matter of fact, Philip Snowden represented Blackburn, along with Sir Henry Norman at that period, you see. Now I was very friendly with the son of Philip Snowden the treasurer, and it was fascinating to get inside information of what was going on in the Independent Labour Party as it was then known. And indeed, I remember at that time
(25 min)
that my friend told me that when the Labour Government came into office Philip Snowden would he the Chancellor of the Exchequer and indeed he was. It was an interesting forecast but I remember it quite distinctly. Yes, it was a gigantic upheaval was the introduction of this Act of 1910 and the Tories never forgave Lloyd George, never. Now we have heard and learnt a lot about him with the history of the past. It’s all very well probing into the lives of men. And some of the actions which it tell us he did not conform.
That's it. Reprehensible to say the least.
R- Nevertheless, he was the man of his day and the man who eventually saved this country in the [First] World War and there is no mistaking it, with all his faults and
(650)
failings, his drive, his ability, his foresight, led the nation through. Now I know, there is a particular author who is trying to denigrate Lloyd George, John Terrain. I have got his book or one of them and I also wrote to him after I had read it on Passchendaele because I was in that. I was responsible as it happened, only a young man from the provinces, I was responsible for supplying the ammunition to 74 battery positions in the battle of Passchendaele. I lived, my headquarters were at Vlamertinghe Château [Vlamertinghe is a village and commune in the Province of West Flanders, on the railway line and the road between Poperinghe and Ypres.] and there I received, at least twice a day, reports of ammunition spent and what not and I then had to order two days in advance what was the likely requirement. But it so happened that this system coincided with my training in the cotton mill and I was able to cope with the position. Because what I had to do was to keep a record of the stock of ammunition then I had to keep a record of ammunition expended and ammunition brought up and so on. And I had to keep a record for each battery not only of shells but of…
Cartridges?
R – Yes, but there is another word for it. Not the cartridge, it was the nose piece, what the…
The fuse. Yes.
R- The fuse see? Well, anyhow that's by the way, but there is no two ways about it, it was a bloody slaughter in 1914.
(700)
And you see? And Lloyd George, yes, he protested against the generals you see. Now, wait a minute, he came in in 1914 didn't he, to finish it off. Yes well now, I didn't like the way Asquith was treated. On the other hand I didn't believe it at the time but I have learned since that poor Asquith was an alcoholic. Now the situation was desperate, the Germans were at our throat, so poor Asquith had to go and there we are. No, it’s a very sad story. But again, now you talk about the unpreparedness of the military setup in this country. It’s true they were unprepared about the Boer War, they thought it was a picnic, they did not learn the lessons and they were [gentlemen amateurs] Apart from Haldane who in four years – that’s all - had, well in four years had got the territorial army [up to scratch]. Also they had increased the navy and speaking generally we had, more or less, the equipment but the military commanders were still gentlemen of leisure and pleasure and still relied on horses.
Lions led by donkeys?
R - Well something like that. They weren't all [like that]. Now this is where it becomes dangerous. If you generalise you are wrong, but in effect, there is some truth in it. Now, let me say this, I was attached to, in the first place as an ammunition officer, to the Second Anzac Artillery Group.
(750)
The precise name escapes me but the Anzac artillery corps. Now, in charge of this we had a general and about ten or twelve members of staff and each had a particular office you see. Well this was before Passchendaele, whilst the war was in another quarter we were getting ready but there was one of the young officers who had certain privileges on account of his family connections and he would regularly have leave to Paris. And he also…
What was his name?
R- I have refrained from using his name because he was well up in military circles and I have never repeated it.
Right.
R - Now, but he had a pet lion you see, just on the back .. stage. Well you see, that’s only one but you had that mentality of, of playfulness and a certain amount of irresponsibility. And, it was that that we civilian soldiers objected to because we civilian soldiers were largely recruited from the areas where you had to earn your living by your efforts.
In other words you would prefer to run the war like a business?
[There is a personal connection between George and myself here because my father and his brother Stanley were in the Anzacs and were at Passchendaele at this time. My father was in the infantry and my Uncle Stan was a driver on the light railways which delivered the shells that George was ordering up to the line. Stan carried other items as well and I remember my father telling me the story about Stan fortifying himself out of the rum ration he was carrying one cold winter’s night. They found him fast asleep beside his train the following morning, dead to the world. I forget what his punishment was but he survived the war. Not strictly part of this account but closely associated with it and very closely connected to me. I think that serendipity might be alive and well!]
R - I did, without a doubt, without a doubt.
That's it yes. Before we get too far into that, it's all very interesting but you realise that I have a terrible job with you! Now will you just let me go back to… It's so fascinating I forget the questions I was going to ask you! Haldane…
R- Yes.
What do you remember of the controversy over the dreadnoughts before the war?
(35 min)(800)
R- Yes. Well, there were two factors, one was political and the other was shall we say staff jealousy amongst the admirals. You see it was a period of development and expansion, material expansion. The idea of the navy was to have the latest weapons and they were always on the look out for some such things, but there were others in the establishment who were satisfied with what we had. Therefore, between the two parties and the internal jealousies there was trouble. One of the protagonists was a man, an admiral known as Jacky Fisher. Now he was, and I remember his photograph, he was a pugnacious looking individual and he must have been very difficult to handle. Never the less he had a point and he became, the question of the dreadnoughts became a political storm of the first magnitude. But by this time, I think Churchill had become the First Lord of the Admiralty and he was of the advance guard who wanted to bring them up to date and I think his policy won.
And of course this had an effect on the German naval building programme.
(850)
R- Of course, of course. Well you see, I say there was envy and jealousy nationally. The Royal Houses were related, the Kaiser was a nephew of Queen Victoria. The Kaiser had a deformity which I think affected his character and he endeavoured to make his presence felt. In other words show his authority. Well at the same time the German people, who have great ability in many ways whatever they undertake, they are very thorough, they are good at manufacturing and producing, and in some cases inventing, but we, at that time, had the edge on them and they were wanting to make headway in competition with us. Well, politically and commercially there was the rivalry which led to the catastrophe.
There is, of course the famous incident where the Kaiser is supposed to have looked at the map and asked why so much of it was coloured red.
R - I wouldn’t be surprised. I haven’t heard that one. Well you see, I used to collect stamps, the boy way, and we had a stamp of the British Empire. Well, it was mostly red.
(40 min)
I remember it, I remember the stamp, I have collected that stamp myself. An interesting thing now in connection with this, the run up to the First World War. Did you have any knowledge of the famous or infamous incident where the Tsar sent the Russian Navy hotfoot round the world to deal with the Japanese, and the Japanese, most unsportingly, sank the Russian Navy at Port Arthur, which of course was, that was one of the big incidents in the run up to the war?
R - Yes it was. It was a great blow to the prestige of Russia. And again, I remember the Guardian reported daily on events, they could only report by telegraph from their war correspondent you see over in Japan.
Yes. One small thing about that which has only just come to me, can you remember anything about the incident when they passed through the North Sea? Can you remember, I don’t want to prompt you too much about this, just to see if you can remember.
R- No. You mean this particular fleet?
As the Russian fleet passed through the North Sea there was an incident.
R – No, I don’t recollect it.
Can I tweak you then to see if you remember it if I mention it to you. They, accidentally in a mist, for some absolutely unknown reasons, fired on some British trawlers. On some British fishing boats.
R - No, that doesn't register, I missed that, I missed that one.
Right, that’s fair enough. My memory of it is very vague and indistinct but for some absolutely unknown reason, it was never understood actually why it happened, but they did actually fire on some, I think they were British trawlers in the North Sea as they were passing through. It might be my memory that’s at fault there, but it’s sticking in my mind.
R – Yes.
Anyway. And so of course they went round there and it took them a long while to get round there because of course their navy was obsolete. Of course everything was obsolete after the dreadnoughts, that was the big thing about the dreadnoughts wasn't it?
R – Yes, exactly.
Everything was obsolete and they had to start again.
R - That's right.
Which meant the tremendous naval building programmes started, and of course reasons had to be found for this and the great thing was that our navy was necessary to defend the sea lanes connecting us to the Empire.
R – Yes it did.
Now, another thing, which comes up. Just lately, A.J.P. Taylor, the famous historian, has propounded a theory recently, which I have great sympathy with, that in actual fact the beginning of the first world war, the 1914 war, the Great War, was actually a result of railway timetables. A thing called the Schlieffen plan. I don’t know whether you have ever come across it, where a German strategist by the name of Von Schlieffen had decided, long since, had drawn up a plan for what would have to be done in the event of a war with France. Which showed how far ahead they were looking. And the only way to shift the troops was to move them through Belgium into France by rail and this was the famous or infamous Schlieffen plan. I take it you have never heard of this have you?
R - No.
Never come across it. Oh well, we’ll finish this tape off, I'll demonstrate my knowledge and it’ll, it might just interest you. The idea was that all the troops would have to be moved to France by rail and the only way to do it was through Belgium. Trouble blew up with France and it was decided to implement the first part of the Schlieffen plan which was to move the troops to the border with Belgium, but what they had forgotten was that once the plan had been set in motion there was no way they could stop the trains, there was no room for them. I think it was at Aachen, I am not sure where the railway actually passed over the boundary. It was more or less a question of the Kaiser saying to the King of the Belgians “Would you please let our troops through and we'll let you have your country back once they have gone through.” And of course this just didn’t work. Once the trains were started off, once they started to move, there was no way they could be stopped at the border, because there was no room for them on the tracks, they had to keep going. And so the Kaiser's hand was more or less forced. He thought that he could make a threatening movement by starting to implement the Schlieffen plan, and then stop it when he had gained his effect. But he found out that owing to the logistics of the railway system and the intractability of the timetables, that once this plan had been started there was no way it could be stopped without causing internal chaos.
R- Yes. No, I have not heard of that but I do remember that King Albert was one of the principal actors in the scene. Now, the Germans threatened the Belgians and we supported, we had agreed to support the Belgians. And once, and the Germans were informed that an no account must they breach the autonomy of Belgium. If they did, we would go to war. The Kaiser and the Germans decided to risk it, now that’s my view, and then of course war was declared. It may well be, as A.J.P. Taylor says, that it did overstep the mark and got themselves involved. But, at any rate, unfortunately the wretched thing happened. Yes. Now A.J.P. Taylor was the son of a cotton manufacturer in Preston I believe. And when I left school, after a term in a spinning mill, I went to learn weaving in a cotton mill which was run by the firm of Taylor.
SCG/05 June 2003
4,554 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/08
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 9th OF FEBRUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Now on this tape what I want to do is take an entirely different tack and go on to a new subject. As you know, at the moment I'm very interested in researching bobbin, mills in the Lake District. I have already done some work on bobbin mills in Manchester. Now the thing is that wherever you have a textile industry, there is an outlet for firms who are prepared to make wooden bobbins and by bobbins I mean things like pirns, weft packages, any sort of turned wooden material. And I do know from things you have said to me that you have come across these sort of things. Now, what I'd like you to do is tell me what you know about bobbin mills.
(50)
R - Yes. Well now, when the cotton industry was developing from the single thread manufacture to machines making multiple threads then the need for bobbins on which the yarn is wound grew tremendously both in quantity and variety and size. Bobbins are made of hard wood and hard wood in to be found largely in the Lake District area. And also for turning purposes, they needed power, so they utilised the water wheels and there at the early stages you had ideal circumstances for making bobbins.
(100)
Indeed, there exists now in Windermere one of the best known firms for making bobbin machinery in the world. The name might come to mind. Which is a unique local industry, and they make machinery, wood turning machinery for a great variety of purposes as well as for bobbins, and shuttles, and furniture. Oh, the name is Fell, W.A. Fell Ltd, they have a great reputation, and
(5 min)
deservedly so for their innate skills, which have been handed down. Well now, as the industries developed they needed to import woods to cope with the quantity therefore they could site their bobbin mills nearer to where the bobbins were required, and so bobbin mills were set up in Todmorden
(150)
and Blackburn and Oldham, just to name a few which come off the spur of my tongue. Now the expansion was terrific. Instead of hundreds or thousands the requirements were millions and eventually there was some concentration into the hands of two or three large firms. The firm which established at Todmorden was known as Wilson Bros. and Co., and they eventually, at about the turn of the century bought a site at Garston near Liverpool so that they could utilise imported timber and therefore supply Manchester and Yorkshire and Lancashire etcetera. There were one or two firms in Blackburn but before them I should say in the old English timber industry, there were a few firms
(200)
on the Pennine slopes where bobbin mills were established so that they could utilise the local water power. Now, later on of course, other materials were used but weren't as satisfactory as timber. But eventually processes were developed where the bobbins were not required, where yarn was put onto cones which are a self-supporting coil of yarn which has now become a popular form of intermediate delivery between one process and another. Now, that in a nutshell is the story.
(10 min)
That's it, yes. Well now, with your permission, I’ll pin you down a little bit. Todmorden, Wilson Bros. and Co. Can you tell me what you know about them?
R- Yes. They were a firm who again, on the Pennines side, probably started in a small way but they were enterprising people and they pioneered
(250)
the huge development. As a result they went to Garston but also they trained several other people who eventually set up in competition. There were also several bobbin makers in Yorkshire but Wilson Bros. became the largest and for a period very successful. But like so many other firms, where there is a huge demand for which they had to acquire stocks, when the slump came, they were caught with holding these stocks, and the market went against them and eventually brought them down until they were taken over by a smaller firm because there was still a good connection left for what was available you see.
What was the name of the smaller firm, can you remember?
R- Bancroft Shuttles. And, incidentally, they took over another firm called Kirk and Co. Blackburn Ltd.
(300)
Were they bobbin turners?
R- Yes, bobbins and shuttles. They very often went together, bobbins and shuttles because it was the same kind of block, different sizes but similar materials you see?
Yes, that's it yes. One of the interesting things that I found in Manchester was that in Manchester bobbin and skewer turners seem to have gone together.
R – Yes. Well I’ll tell you for why. The skewer was for the cops and it was used largely for doubling purposes. Then the twist cops or the cops from the mule spinning frame were put on to skewers in the creel of the doubling mill, of the doubling frame, and, and - oh dear me, the name’s
(15 min)
escaping me. I can see the machines now, there were two kinds of doubling, there was the ring doubling frame, and this, after the style of a mule carriage, to and fro, the name escapes me.
All right. That’s all right.
R - But that's what the wood skewers were for. I think they were mostly cornel wood, but a very hard wood or boxwood.
Yes. Cornel of course is what a lot of the shuttles are made out of nowadays.
R- Cornel and Persimmon.
Yes. The dark shuttles, the dark coloured ...
R- Persimmon.
Are they Persimmon?
R- Yes.
Yes. I always thought they were Lignum Vitae but there you are.
(350)
R - No, no. Lignum Vitae is a very hard wood, and far too heavy. Oh no, Lignum, Vitae is used where a durable wood is required for underwater purposes.
Yea, that’s it. Can you, you mentioned, when you mentioned Todmorden you mentioned some other towns in Lancashire. Obviously, one of the things we are interested in are locations, names and wherever possible the names of the mills. Can you happen to remember the name of the mill Wilson Bros. Had? You know, the name of the premises?
R - Not I don't.
No. That’s all right.
R- But there was also another firm at Preston and they were owned by a Belfast firm Irving and Sellars, the name comes back to me. But they specialised in bobbins for the spinning mills.
In other words, larger bobbins such as they…
Well larger bobbins because I mean they did get on to very large ones didn’t they, for ring spinning and…
R- Yes, well, and for the intermediate frames, roving frames. That’s right, that's true.
Yes. Roving frames, that's it yes. Can you, can you cast your mind back, I realise this is very difficult but as I say, I’ll just put slight pressure in you. Can you cast your mind back for more names of bobbin mills in the, well any sort of area, Lancashire, anywhere? Names of firms. Or locations?
R - There was one called Forest, a firm called Forest, they had a place at Billington, near Whalley.
(400)
Yes.
R- And then there was another place in Blackburn whose name I forget. Of course you see, most of these firms have been out 50 years, that's a long time. But I had dealings with the amalgamation and take over in the later times towards the end of the era and that was the only thing to do, to concentrate. You see it was a kind of rear guard action.
When you say that you were dealing with amalgamations and such as that, I take it that one of the first things that you would have to do in any proposed amalgamation would be to do a valuation.
R – That’s right.
Of the premises.
R- They wanted to know what was the market value of the property. Both land, buildings, water rights and machinery.
Yes. And so that presupposes the fact that you'll have a fairly good knowledge of the sort of machinery that was being used 50 years ago for making bobbins in Lancashire.
R- Yes I had at the time.
Yes. Could you tell me whether for instance, was most of the machinery, the actual lathes, were they iron frames or wooden frames?
(20 min)
R- Iron.
Iron. Did you over come across any that were wooden framed machines?
(450)
R - Well there probably were a few where the beds, the lathe bed was perhaps a wooden frame, but in the hand tooling industry, some of the little old mills, but mostly those that survived had the cast iron frames and beds on top of which they had the head and the tail and the tools for turning.
Yes, and they’d be more form tools than hand tools. Yes.
R - Oh yes. They were highly specialised, and the machines were set with tools to perform a certain process, and then the batch of bobbins or shuttles going through would be returned to the same operatively who would put another tool on for another process until it was through. Later on, there were several multipurpose machines developed so as to reduce the number of operations.
Would most of the mills that you came into contact with, what would the motive power be?
R – Electricity, in the last, since the turn of the century.
Did you ever come across any with steam power?
R- I can’t just recall, but there must have been, there must have been before the development of electricity which was roughly round about 1900
(500)
when it became commercially viable. Say from 1850 to 1900, in that 50 years there was a huge developments and they must have been driven by steam engines. But you see that's 80 years ago so I can’t just think of one now but there must have been... there must have been.
Yes. Well, as I say, I realise I’m putting pressure on you. Have you ever come across one where there was either still a water wheel running or you knew that there’d been a water wheel there?
R - Oh yes. I'm thinking of this one at Billington, it comes to my mind but it was only a small place you see? And incidentally to make do when the bobbins went off, they made handles for tools and for shovels and anything which they could, by which it was required for, utilisation of the hard wood you see?
That’s it, aye. Brush stales and such.
R - Brush stales, that's right. Well of course, mostly brush stales were of soft wood, except those for heavy work like Corporation road sweeping and they had a strong, they had a stronger wood.
That’s its yes. When you say that a lot of this machinery was driven by electric motors, are you thinking of individual electric motors on each machine or machines driven by overhead shafting powered by a large electric motor?
R- Oh yes. That was the first development and lasted a long time. Central motor, shafting and belting. Latterly, and I would think from 1930 onwards, there was a development of the individual drives where the motor was attached to the spindle you see? But it didn't apply all round
(150)
because some of the machines, they didn’t require very much power to operate you see?
Yes, that’s a good point yes.
R- Oh no they didn’t.
Yes. That's a good point. When you were going to do a valuation of a bobbin mill, what arrangements did most of them have for drying timber? Because obviously, one of the principal things about turning bobbins, any sort of turned work is that the wood has got to be perfectly dry.
R- Oh yes. Well the old method of course was to stack the timber for air drying. Well, that’s a very slow process. But when they got on to mass production and imported timber they developed the oven-drying process you see, whereby the wood would be put in the drying chambers and kept for so long according to the size, until the moisture was taken out, extracted. That had the benefit of avoiding the finished bobbin taking a misshape, warping they call it, you know?
Yes. And of course another additional benefit of that would be that they wouldn’t have to have such large stocks of timber drying slowly.
R – That’s true, that's another reason.
(600)
Yes. Which would make that process more economical even though it actually cost more for the actual drying. Yes.
R- That’s it. Yes.
To your knowledge, the drying chambers themselves, I do know that modern kiln-drying of wood in large quantity is done, not only in a chamber applying heat, but also under vacuum because it brings the moisture out of the wood quicker, can you ever remember coming across any arrangement such as that, whereby the air could be pumped out of the chamber while it was being heated?
R - I don’t recall.
No. Oh well, obviously if you can’t recall, that's it. So to all intents and purposes, would you may it was true that when the industry started to become more centralised and bigger volume production from one unit, that’d be just about all imported timber?
R- I would think so, yes.
I'm wondering what the effect would be on the coppice-woods you know, on the coppices that were used before. You know the farming of a stand of timber for coppice.
R - Yes. Well, you see the contrast between the old hand-work and machine-work was so great as to put the small timber out of commercial value. It took too long to cut and to handle and to store, so naturally, with economy in mind, suitable machinery for handling was adopted according to the timber imported you see? Large amounts from Africa and some from South America.
(30 min)
So it was more economical to take a large piece of timber and reduce it, possibly on a multiple band saw or something like that than bothering with small, odd-shaped pieces of timber out of a coppice which were all different.
(650)
R- Oh yes. Oh certainly, yes. There was a certain amount of timber used for the smaller bobbin which not necessarily of the hard wood to which I refer but the forests were searched for suitable timbers on the grounds of economy. Incidentally there were two other firms that I remember. Oh, there were three. There was one at Barnsley known as Wilson and Co. Barnsley Ltd I think. They had been a break away from the Todmorden, the Garston firm and then there was another firm in Bradford and another firm near Keighley.
They are still working at Steeton.
R – That’s it, Steeton.
Yes. I can't remember the name [Dixon’s] but they are still working at Steeton. Yes, bobbin manufacturers. How well did you know Manchester?
R - Fairly well.
I was doing some researches the other day down at Manchester into bobbin mills and I was going through Slater’s directories for 1820 to 1870 and one of the things which struck me, I came across quite a few references.
R - You mean 1920 and 1970.
No, 1820.
R - Slater?
Yes, the old Slaters directory.
R - Oh I beg your pardon, I'm on the wrong one.
Different Slater, but Slater’s directory for 1820 to 1870.
R- Right.
And it mentioned quite a number of bobbin mills, bobbin and skewer turners and things like this. And one of the things that struck me was the fact that they seemed to be concentrated in certain. areas. Now I reasoned that as they were so early, 1820 some of them, 1828, 1830, one would think that they were water-powered. Now quite a few of them seem to be
(700)
located in Salford on Great Clowes Street. Now I don’t know the area well enough without going down and having a look, but is that alongside the river that area?
R – Yes, it’s not far away but I don’t think, I don’t think they'd get water power from the Great Clowes Street area.
No. I’m wondering what the power was you see.
R – Well…
As I see it there are two alternatives, either they had their own small steam engines or they were running, one can well imagine the situation where a small firm would set up on the end of a large mill that was using a steam engine and buy power off them just by a shaft through the wall. I’ve come across instances of this being done with things like mortar pans and such.
R - Oh yes, yes, so have I, but I don’t recall any such cases in bobbin makers, they were independent. Well, I don’t know but I can't imagine any head of water in the river about Clowes Street, Great Clowes Street.
Yes, how interesting. There is also some mention that it in China Lane in Piccadilly and one can’t really imagine water-power there.
(35 min)
R – No, I think it must have been small steam engine.
Yes. Possibly, and sometimes happened I know, with the boiler fired off the shavings from the bobbins.
R - Oh yes. They utilised waste products that way for a period.
When you were going to do a valuation for somewhere like a bobbin mill, can you ever remember any cases where you went where it was obvious to you that the building had been used for something else before it was bobbin mill? Say a corn mill or something like that. Did these things, did anything like that ever strike you?
R- No. They were generally purpose built. If there was a stream in the country, well they were probably two or three stories with the water wheel just outside the end you know? And as a rule, they were purpose built. Simple, mostly rectangular buildings adapted according to the lye of the land, levels you know and that kind of thing, to take into account.
Yes. Was there any particular feature about a place that was being used as a bobbin mill that would distinguish it from say an ordinary engineer’s work shop or something like that? Anything that comes immediately to mind?
R - After the water power had served its purpose or had been superseded, the answer is no. No special requirement.
No. What I'm thinking about mainly is windows. You know, would there be more windows in a bobbin mill than say in an engineer's work shop? Was light any more important?
R - Oh yes. Definitely. But an engineering work shop, as a rule, was more spacious. A bobbin mill only required relatively narrow rooms you see with one or two lines of machinery for the flow of the material and supply of material and stacks. No, they are two different types of building. Now an engineering works wants space in which to move, not only to set up the larger machines, but space in which to move the items being manufactured you see?
That’s it, aye. That’s another interesting point. So for a bobbin mill it wasn’t really necessary to have large rooms, because the inherent in the nature of the business was the fact that the pieces they were working on were very small anyway.
R- That's right.
Yes. Yes, that's interesting as well. If somebody was going to do an amalgamation like that, this is not so much bobbin mills, I mean this applied to almost any firm. What were the sort of criteria
(800)
that you applied when you went to judge the value of premises and machinery? I mean obviously you must have had a very wide knowledge of the market for machinery but what sort of process did you use to arrive at the value of say machinery in a bobbin mill? We’ll talk about a bobbin mill, but it could apply to any other sort of premises. You know, what sort of thought processes would you use, I realise it's a difficult question.
R - Well, speaking generally, the tools were simple, they were small. Once you have got a revolving shaft, which was, call it the lathe head, you could put anything to it and the beauty of the wood turning mills of any variety is that tools can be devised to cut various shapes, provided they were in the circular fashion you see? So that the machinery in the early stages wasn’t elaborate. It was the tooling and the skill in making these tools that came into prominence. Now, later on, with the adaptation of multi-production, then of course you had a larger machine and you wanted a little more room and it got more expensive. But what we had to do, to arrive at the market value, was to take the norm as being the latent machine, having regard to its cost and productive capacity. We scale it down according to age and condition and again capacity, because the old ones have not, normally speaking have not the same capacity. And so you gradually applied the skill rising from experience to what you had to apply your mind to, you see? To the particular questions in view
(850)
and having regard to the market ability of the machines. That’s the general approach, you see as to in effect, what is the residual economic value you see. If it's a new machine, well it's the new cost. A machine 50 years old, and there are 50 year old head stocks in timber which can go on and on and on because you simply put new bearings to it and off you go again. Well the depreciations on those are relatively small so you built up a knowledge, and you apply it to the best of your belief to a particular object. And in a case of amalgamation well then you'd value each works on the same basis, so you get a common factor throughout you see.
That's it. So that really, it wouldn’t matter if it was an amalgamation, it's really the proportions that matter.
R- In the long run, exactly.
Yes. And so really it doesn't matter if the man that's doing it isn’t quite right in his assumptions about the values, as long as he does both of them.
R - Well I wouldn’t say that, because unless he has some knowledge…
Well yes.
R - You see? No, you might allow for variations but if one man does both then the variations compensate each other, that's the point.
Yes, understood.
R- But he must be, he shouldn’t undertake it unless he is familiar with the matter.
And how about the building Mr Singleton, when you were looking at the building what was the criteria there as to the value of a building?
R - Well, first of all, is it suitable for the continuation of the business, number one. If not, what’s the alternative use, and then you consider various trades having regard to the size of the building, location and condition. It’s a complicated business. But you see of course these things filter through your mind you see and you apply them, well I've used the expression that a valuer is like a reflector, he collects all the rays from the source and concentrates them on one particular point to get an answer.
(900)
Yes. One thing that's often struck me, seeing industrial valuations, is that many a time, the actual physical condition of the building is of less importance than things like the potential for other trades and the suitability for its present use and obviously in this day and age, things like planning requirements and planning permissions and things like that.
(45 min)
R - Oh yes.
Would you say that was true? That in the final analysis, when you start to think about things like planning requirements and fitness for the present use that the condition of the building needn’t necessarily play a large part in the calculations?
R -Well the most important thing is legal, shall I call it legal approval? Town planning consent nowadays, that's the most important factor because if you are not permitted to use your building, then the value is virtually gone or limited to what they are allowed to be used for, put to, you see? Having said that, you do take the condition into consideration because a new man, a new firm coming in, they say “Well, we can utilise this space, we like the situation, but we shall have to spend so many thousand pounds on conditioning.” So they base their price, and we valuers have it in mind as to what it would cost to put the building into condition for the particular purpose in hand you see.
Yes. What would you say was the, I’m talking now about old textile premises in general - what would you say was the biggest fault common to all of them. I'm thinking about something in particular, but I’m just wondering whether you have come across the same thing when you go to look.
R- Well I’ll tell you. On single storey buildings in particular it's pillar distances. Pillar distances as well as height, but pillar distances are the most important single factor in the adaptation of a weaving shed to any other place..
Yes.
R - Right, but also in spinning, mule spinning mills, you have not only the fact of the pillar distances, but the floor loading capacity. If for mules, the weight being put on the beams between
(950)
the pillars, right? The floor in between for the mule carriage and the operatives to move does not require the same weight. So mule spinning mills are not as adaptable for other purposes, they have their limitations.
Yes, because you don’t need the same floor loading capacity because obviously the weight of the frames is carried on the strongest part of the building between the pillars. Yes, I never thought about that.
R- That’s it.
Because really the only weight in between is the people walking on them and the weight of any material that was just stacked there.
R - And the movement of the mule carriage you see, yes.
Yes, that’s it, yes. Aye, very interesting.
R - Well of course these things grow with you, you see. You grow with them. I’m telling you now, in a couple of hours the results of a lifetime of experience you see?
Yes. You make me feel like Uriah Heep, very humble, very humble,
R - Oh no no.
Yes. Now that’s an interesting thing. One of the things that I was thinking about was that most of the weaving sheds that I’ve ever see, things can look quite presentable until you take the looms out and then the floors are absolutely terrible.
R – Yes. Well where there's stone flag floors, they get grooved with the clogs of previous generations. Clogs I say. And also where the loom feet have been placed, they had to be secured and mostly in the old days they were secured by bolts or lead, yes, lead was used. But unless they be secured the looms, the speed of them, they tended to move you see? This of course affected the cloth production and the movement of the shuttle and so it had to be fixed, had to be firm I mean.
That's it, yes. I know that was one of the things about Bancroft, the floor was in such terrible condition that it was one of the major factors in deciding how much the buildings are worth actually, because we did get an estimate for putting a four inch concrete raft down suitable for putting automatic looms on, and the lowest estimate was about a hundred and twenty thousand pounds.
R- Now, John has been, my son, he says “It's fantastic. I don’t think they have spent any money for fifty years.”
Oh, at Bancroft?
R – Bancroft.
Oh they have not spent a ha’penny.
R- He said it was fantastic, incredible that a firm could have continued to exist you see. Fortunately, the firm or the person who has bought it, is not in the textile trade, you may know, but my recollection of what John told me was that he was taken up with this building and although he is not a textile man it's his intention to retain some of the features, more or less as a museum piece.
Yes. I’m going at have to stop the tape. [At this time it was thought that Malcolm Dunphy from Rochdale was going to buy the mill and that he'd keep the steam engine for power because he needed to test his oil burners on a boiler so he would have surplus steam. In the end this didn't happen.]
SCG/05 June 2003
4,854 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/09
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 16th OF FEBRUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
Well, Mr Singleton, when I was here last time, we were talking about general things: about family life.
R- Yes.
And what I thought we perhaps might do today in try and see how much you can remember about family life outside the home, social life outside the home perhaps would be a better term, outside the home. Can you remember playing outside the house? Where you played outside the house?
R- Yes. Well now, but what age you see because at nine and a half my family left Darwen and went to St Annes so in my mind they are distinct chapters you see?
Yes well….
R - If you want to know what happened before I left Darwen yes. Well we lived in the residential part of the town near a park and there were many
(50)
open spaces. So we, children of the neighbourhood, played together many of whom went to the same Dame School run by my mother’s aunt, if you remember see?
Yes I do.
R - And so we’d happy times together, and we got plenty of exercise and of course in those days the games, the popular games were Hoop, that’s with a wooden hoop or an iron hoop, and Hopscotch, Marbles, Chequers and Trust was another game and Hide and Seek of course. But we enjoyed ourselves.
(100)
Tell me how you played Chequers.
R - Well Chequers were cubes of about half to three quarter inch and I forget the details but I think we had some form of hopping over like Draughts but that’s about all I can remember. But that, we didn't do much of that but…
But were the cubes numbered?
R- No, they weren't numbered, no.
No. Don’t worry yes. And presumably Hoops, the idea was to follow them along with a stick, yes?
R- Oh the idea, with a stick. A wood stick for a wooden hoop and a piece of iron for an iron hoop you see? Of course the iron hoops were usually played with by the older boys. They were supposed to be superior.
(5 min)(150)
And I suppose quite a bit heavier?
R - And heavier, yes.
Yes. And that was, you raced with those presumably did you and things like that? Yes. And Marbles, would that be the same game of marbles that's played by the youngsters today?
R - Well there are various ways of marbles. You, in some cases you have a ring, you put them in the centre and take it in turns to knock the marbles out you see? Another way was to take it in turns to see if you could hit a marble from a distance and so on.
Yes. And presumably you were always wearing holes in your pockets from carrying the marbles around.
R – Well, yes. Oh but the marbles were of earthenware.
Oh yes.
R- But there were also better quality marbles known as Glass Allies and Blood Allies. And they, the blood allies were literally made out of marble you see? The glass allies were, contained
(200)
some beautiful designs and coloured. I don’t know how they were made, but they wore highly prized, you see? And then if we were short of a glass ally sometimes, we broke the pop bottles which in those days, at the early days of aeration, the liquid was sealed by pressure from within which, which forced up a marble to the top of the bottle with a rubber ring.
Yes I’ve see them.
R - Well we were, if we were short of marbles we broke the bottles to get the marbles, shame. Or some of the big boys did generally.
Yes. Can you remember any prices of any of these things. Like how much the marbles were or anything like that?
R - No. Too far gone, but they weren't much because our spending money was a ha'penny a week. Then when we, then when we got older we could have a penny a week. But for a penny we could get quite a sizeable quantity of sweets.
(250)
Oh dear, dear.
R - And, and mint balls were a favourite, because they lasted longest.
Just, sort of like a mint gobstopper would? Oh dear. Can you remember if there were any children that your parents thought it better that you didn’t play with? Can you, can you remember ever getting that sort of feeling that they were not happy?
R – No. There was a certain amount of class distinction, according to the income and of the family and the work of the husband or the wage earners. But no, there was no strict line of demarcation, and those who went to Sunday School there were no distinctions. Well dressed, fully dressed, they assembled in their classes irrespective of what their parents did. Which was a very good method of mixing society.
(300)
Yes, I agree. Continuing along the idea of what you did outside the home in your free time, did you go for walks? Can you remember going for, setting out for walks?
(10 min)
R – Well up to ten years of age I should say no. We did a little foraging round perhaps to within half a mile or sop but with having the park an our doorstep, so to speak, and vacant land at the back of the houses, we were quite happy in our play facilities,
Were you as well situated when you came to Lytham?
R - Well it was St Annes on the Sea we came to.
I beg your pardon yes.
(350)
R- It's all right. There, there were, in those days there were two separate Urban District Councils. [They amalgamated and the district became Lytham St Annes] Well the circumstances were different, but again, St Annes had only been incorporated twenty five years when we came so there were - although the town had been laid out - there were many empty spaces. But we were, we lived within a hundred yard or so of the Parish Church and there were very few houses on the shore aide of the church, and the land was level, sandy subsoil, and we had plenty of scope for games. There were fewer children in the area than at Darwen but we attended both day school and Sunday school immediately and made our friendships accordingly.
Did bicycle rides perhaps feature then in your… perhaps as you grew up a bit?
R - Well bicycles were rare machines in those days and children’s bicycles didn’t exist.
No.
R - I remember my father got one. It was a German make, from Bielefeld.
Fancy you remembering that.
(400)
R- And it had pneumatic tyres, but when there was a puncture, when we had a puncture we had to strip the tyre off and ungum it. It was before the days of the…
Inner tube?
R - The air tube yes.
Yes. And what sort of bike was that? Can you remember?
R - I don’t remember the name but I know it was a German. What kind?
Yes.
R - Oh, my father’s bicycle?
Yes. Whether it was a sort of boneshaker or sit up and beg or...
R- Oh no. It was, shall we say a forerunner of the modern style of bicycle yes..
(15 min)1 to p&
Yes. Because during the 1890s and up to I suppose 1920 there was quite an upsurge wasn’t there of bicycle riding and they…
R - Oh yes. Well, I would say from the turn of the century, and particularly with the improvement in tyres brought about by Dunlop.
Dunlop yes.
R - It gave a boost to cycling because punctures were frequent, the quality of the tyre was not good, the roads were not good and there were frequent punctures on the old style of tyre, it became an awful nuisance. But when Dunlop brought his inner tube into the market, it opened up a new field and from then on there were large developments. Yes.
(450)
Yes. It was a big thing wasn't it, for the ladies to go out with their riding habits on?
R- Oh my word, and long dresses you see? And they had dress shields you see so that the dress didn't get in the chain.
Yes ... chain. I think probably there was quite a lot of liberation occurred during that period.
R - Oh yes. Because the ladies who went for, went on bicycles belonged to the avant garde.
Oh yes, very much so. Were you ever sent on berry collecting missions or firewood, or fruit from the country?
R - Well yes. At Darwen we used to go, we collected Whinberry.
Lovely.
R - On the moors.
They are beautiful, aren't they? Any other sort, or was it just Whinberries?
R – No, that's all [that was] available.
Did you have a fire at home? You did, didn't you? Did you have to collect firewood for that, or did you run it off coal?
R – No. Now there was a lot of firewood available from redundant timber from the mills. So we weren't worried on that account no.
There wasn’t really a problem no. And presumably the opportunity to collect things like berries or fruit was even further reduced when you came to St Annes,
R - Yes. I remember one farm in St Annes used to have damson trees but of course at the season we went and bought them for jam making.
(500)
Beautiful jam it makes too. What did your mother do with the Whinberries? Just make them into pies?
R – Yes, that's all.
Making more? Yes. Was anybody a fisher in your family?
R – No.
No fishing done at all. And can you remember if your father had any particular pursuits in his spare time - I realise he didn’t have very much spare time but ..
R - No. Before he was married he took an active part in football.
Did he?
R – Yes. In the early days of the Football Association. It was the cradle of football association, in the valley between Blackburn and Bolton.
(20 min)
Oh well.
R - Including Turton and Darwen. And the Darwen Football Club was the first provincial club to win the FA Cup.
Well well. When was that? Can you remember?
R – I’ve got all the papers upstairs ..
Upstairs yes. Well, I’m sure somebody will know when the first FA. Cup. Well, if you want to ...
It was, if you'll break off…
(550)
Now you, you fetched all these files and things that you have got here. One specifically on the first year of Darwen Rangers Football Club and you have got another one here that has got examples of the Darwen Cricket and Football Times, and in fact you have got the first copy here. Price 1d. And while we were looking through them we discovered this is in fact, exactly 100 years this week, that the thing started, in fact February 14th was the first issue. Yes. And you, and an interesting comment that you made here was the fact that it looks rather, from looking through the records that the players had to buy their own…
R - Equipment. Shirts and…
Jerseys and things.
R- Yes jerseys. Yes, that's right.
Strip I suppose is the proper word today. And, and that's obviously what you worked out from looking at the records is it? Yes. And how is it that you have come by all this information?
R – Well, my father was the, at one time, the treasurer of the Darwin Rangers Football Club and I came across the papers in the family records.
But this certainly is fascinating reading but we'll never get the tape finished if we go on reading all this. And the other thing we found out was that the match you referred to where Darwen Rangers were the first provincial club to win the F.A. Cup. The match was against the Old Etonians was it? [Season 1878/89]
R- Yes.
Yes, and in fact they obviously had several matches against each other over a period of time.
R- Yes. That’s right, that's true.
Yes. Anyway perhaps we'll leave that for the moment and, and perhaps we might come back to it at another stage. So where we started this was that you said that before your father was married, he had had quite a lot to do with, with the football club.
R - Oh yes, that's right. But after he was married of course he had a young family growing up and he’d also many Church and Sunday School activities so that I don't recall him being a member of any particular sports club at that time
(600)
Presumably while he was treasurer and a full member he played as well did he?
R- Oh yes, he was a playing member. In fact he was captain for a period.
Was he? And do you think he stopped because of his commitments or because he was getting older and therefore didn't feel as fit to play?
R - Well I would think that generally it was his commitments. Business commitments and then getting married which is a natural development.
Yes. So apart from this Sunday school thing he didn’t really pursue any other interests after he was married, probably due to a shortage of time.
(25 min)
R – No, not sporting interests, no.
No. And you can't remember him having any other hobbies particularly?
R - No.
Did you get a feeling when, perhaps when you were in Darwen that he was out an awful lot?
R - Well, he was. His business took him out of town a good deal. And then his church and social work occupied some of the evenings.
On a regular basis?
R - Yes.
Can you remember your mother having any particular interests in her spare time, if she had any spare time?
R - She had no spare time.
True enough. She didn't help her husband with any of the church or social work?
R- Well, not as such but she was an active member of the church and I remember her taking me to several midweek meetings.
And that was Methodist was it? Yes.
R - Yes.
(650)
Yes. Can you remember if they went out together often or infrequently in fact?
R – No, their interests were family and church.
Yes. So that, so there wasn’t the sort of ... dinner parties or things like that? No?
R – No, there was no social life. No no. Oh no. Most of the social engagements were in connection with the church. Both for concerts or parties, as well as the devotional side. Now the church were pioneers in the use of leisure without a doubt.
Yes. That’s an interesting comment that. That's a very interesting comment.
R- Your question opens up a very big subject, but to put the Victorian Era in a nutshell I think it is summed up in the story of the question put to Queen Victoria by an African Chief as to what was the source of England’s greatness. And she is alleged to have replied "The Bible". Have you heard that one?
No.
(700)
R – Yes. Well now, and amidst the ups and downs of society and life I would say that the great Victorian Era was largely inspired by biblical teaching. Christianity was in the forefront of social service, hospital work, education, and general welfare. And members of all denominations made their contribution. And there were during the reign of Victoria, there were movements for social betterment in many ways - for instance the reform of chimney sweeps, the reform of the corn laws…
Public Health Acts as well.
(30 min)
R - And Public Health Acts. The establishment of corporate bodies for the conduct of local government, and history will show that there was a gradual improvement. So much so that my impression was as a boy, was that eventually things might as well so develop until we reached the millennium. You see?
Yes. And you still hold with that?
R - Pardon?
You still hold with that?
R - Well I’m still looking forward to it but I think we have got off the rails at the present. And the industrial revolution coupled with the evangelical change brought about by the Wesley had a profound effect on the nation as a whole. And although there were many faults and failings, there was the endeavour to improve the welfare of the peoples as time went on. One of the results of the Victorian effort was the introduction of the Education Act of 1870 which made education compulsory didn't it?
Well, it could, they couldn't actually make it compulsory then. It was to make it available for any child basically.
R - Oh that’s right, yes.
I mean it became compulsory later on.
R – Yes. It became, yes, that’s right. And anyhow, in order to be fair to the Victorians, such facts ought to be set against the difficult conditions under which people lived. Does that cover the point?
Yes. It certainly provides the background to why you feel that the organisation of people's leisure time can be ...
R - Oh yes. Well now, another thing. In the family records I came across a book called 'The Hand of God in History’ published in 1848 which graphically described the events of the years, and indicated the guidance of divine help. Indeed in the Victorian period the British were the
(800)
pioneers in missionary work throughout the world. Looking back, many people criticise them for their somewhat naive approach but without those efforts
(35 min)
there would not have been the development which is taking place. Now much of the fault of colonialism is not due to missionary work, but due to the camp-followers who took advantage of the ignorance of the natives.
Yes, that’s true.
R- Well, I think that’s a thumb-nail sketch.
I wondered if you felt that the teachings of the Bible had guided people in how they were to spend their leisure time. That’s perhaps what I first thought you meant.
R - Oh, well yes. Yes, for instance Sabbath-breaking was considered to be a sin. Have I told you about my father's skates?
I don't think so, no.
R - Oh, well. My father tells me of an incident when, as a boy he went skating on a Sunday and when it came to his father’s knowledge his father burnt his skates.
Yes. I always remember we couldn’t play cards on a Sunday, or go to, say, the cinema or something on a Sunday, it was never thought of. Yes.
(850)
R – Exactly, it wasn’t thought of. And I’m sure we have lost something in swinging the other way too far. I'm sure of that in my opinion.
So even playing games on a Sunday was breaking the Sabbath was it? When I say playing games I mean things like your hopscotch or things like that?
R- Oh yes. Oh we never thought of it. Oh yes, we never dreamt, we never dreamt of playing any games in our generation. We attended Sunday school as well as church, and I would say that about the 1900 to 1910 period that by far the majority of youngsters in Blackburn would be members of some Sunday School, even in those days. The youngsters had to make their own games, formed their own football clubs, paid 6d each to club up to buy a ball and then hunt round until they found a friendly farmer within reasonable distance, and paid him a small rent for the use of his land in the winter.
Really?
R - Oh yes, We all had, we all had to do it.
That’s, that’s entrepreneur isn’t it?
R- What?
That's high class entrepreneurs isn’t it?
R- Yes, well there was no option if we wanted to play football and that’s what we did. And we changed in the barns you see? And we bought our own goal posts and carried the wood up.
Fascinating.
R- No, that’s only in my lifetime, that was a regular thing before the first world war.
As you grew into your teens was there any opportunity given to any of you to not go to church or was it just never thought of, you all went come hail or sunshine?
(900)
R- Well, what shall I say, it was the custom that we went so we never argued about it. There were occasions when we didn’t go, perhaps we might have visitors, or relatives or the weather but speaking generally we went.
(40 min)
And you had presumably one church that you went to every week, you didn’t hop around?
R - Oh yes, we were normally regular. Then we, in our later teens we used to visit other churches to see what went on and to meet our friends in those other churches.
So in Darwen the church you went to, can you remember the name of it?
R - Yes. Railway Road Wesleyan Methodist Chapel.
Chapel, sorry, yes.
R - I emphasise the word Chapel, because we were called Non-Conformists
And in St Annes?
R - We went to the Drive Wesleyan Methodist Church at St Annes Sunday school, and also there was a Wesleyan Methodist Mission Room at Church Road before the present building of the church. Before the building of the present church, yes.
On this Church Road down here? Yes?
R- Yes. Where we used to attend, it was nearer than the Drive so it was convenient to attend the Church services, but we went to the Sunday School at the Drive.
And did they, the Wesleyan Methodist Chapel at Darwen, have its own Sunday school?
R - Oh yes.
And they were, sort of in the afternoon were they on a Sunday?
R - Oh they had morning and afternoon.
And you went to both?
R - Well, no. Because, you see, I was only nine and a half when I left so I used to go to the afternoons occasionally.
And presumably, every week, come…
R - Oh yes. Yes it was a regular routine and we met our friends, formed our friendships, and speaking generally they were happy occasions.
(950)
I think you have mentioned actually, when we more looking through some of those files, some of the social events that were organised by the Chapel.
R - Oh yes.
Or Sunday school. Can you remember any of them?
R - Well, my memory for those occasions of course refers to St Annes because you see… Oh yes we had an organisation called the Literary and Scientific Society to which we invited people to give addresses on a variety of subjects and we had occasional musical evenings and parties. So our general entertainment you might say was self supporting.
A self help exercise all the way along the line. Yes.
R – Yes, that’s right.
And did you have, well obviously you wouldn’t have trips to the sea- side when you were at St Annes, you were already at the sea-side, but any trips like that, where you all went on.
R- Oh well, we had an annual Sunday School picnic into the country. I remember one at Reah Green, another at Scorton.
Never heard of those places. In a bus would it be? Or was there such a thing?
R – No, we’d go by train, because the field was just outside Reah Green station, you see? And we changed trains at Preston for Scorton and that was it.
Day out. And did you have a special date at the end of the year or whenever was the Sunday School end of year for presentation of ..
R - Oh yes. We had, attendance was registered on what were known an star cards and each scholar had a card on the inside of which were squares for each Sunday in the year, morning and afternoon. And
(1000)
as you entered the school you handed in your card to a star card marker who stamped your card.
SCG/06 June 2003
4,105 words
