The Lancashire Textile Project 2013

LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/1

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 15th of JUNE 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT SHED, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.



Ernie Roberts in 1979

[SIDE ONE]

Now then, Ernie Roberts, how old are you?

R-Sixty two. (1916)

Is that right! I didn’t know you were that old. Aye, where were you born Ernie?

R-Number 3, Hartley Street, Barnoldswick. [Bit of a problem here. There is no Hartley Street in Barlick and there never was one. I’ve checked with the Royal Mail and the only one they know of is in Earby. So, Ernie must have made a mistake. I think he means John Street but it may become clearer later on.] [In mid-June 2001 all this became clear. Hartley Street was the name of a row of houses on the left hand side of what is now Westgate/Colne Road about 100 yards above the entrance to Rocky Road/Cavendish Street. A bloke rang me up after seeing an article in the paper I wrote and he used to live there. He said they were numbered up to number 10 if his memory is correct. He also said that a Fred Taylor and his wife lived there with their son Anthony and Anthony’s grandmother lived next door.]

How many years did you live in that house?

R-Oh, as far as I can remember, happen about four years. And then we moved from there.

Where did you move to then.

R-Colne Road.

Still in Barlick?

R-Still in Barlick.

Can you remember why you made the move?

R-Oh, I fancy it were because t’family were growing and it were only a very little house.

What was your father’s name?

R-George Ireson Roberts

That’s an uncommon name.

R-It is.

Where were he born?

R-Gisburn.

And what did he do for a living, your father?

R-Weaver, they must have moved to Barlick, the Roberts family. His father, my grandfather, was a joiner working for whoever the estate was, you know, Gisburn Estate, Lord Ribblesdale I suppose. They moved to Bracewell first of all and me grandmother learned to be a midwife and then they moved up to Barlick. And then me father must have married me mother and my earliest recollection is of Hartley Street.

That’s it, and where was your mother born?

R-Brierfield.

What was her name?

R-Margaret Ellen Alton.

Yes, and how would your father get to meet her then, in Brierfield?

R-Oh, they’d moved to Barlick by then. This town must have been growing in those days , plenty of work you see. Plenty of work.

When your mother and father married, what year would that be, any idea?

R-Must have been about 1900, or may be later than that. Wait a minute, he went to the 1914 war as a young man I suppose, it would possibly be about 1900.

How many brothers and sisters did you have?

R-Oh say 11. My mother had two babies in ten months, that was a sign of the times, born and buried. But there were four of us survived, like three brothers and one sister survived.

So your mother’d be confined probably 11 times and only four survived?

R-Aye at least. But it were typical that.

Well, that’s the sort of thing that people today wouldn’t understand.

R-Well, it’s true.

I mean, that’s just incredible, what would you say yourself, I realise you weren’t there, but what would you say yourself was the reason for that heavy mortality?

R-Well, malnutrition I suppose, there were a lot of poverty you know. And I mean they’ve advanced a lot in medical knowledge. In them days it were just a matter of luck I suppose if you survived. Measles carried a lot off, diphtheria, scarlet fever, you never hear about these nowadays.

How long did the children that were born and died survive?

R-Well I don’t know really but these two children that me mother had in ten months lived to be a year and a year or and a half or so, then they both died in a fortnight wi’ German Measles.

So she had all the work with them and then they died. Aye, it’s terrible isn’t it. Where did you come in the family? You know, were you the oldest or the youngest?

R-Oh, I must have been about seventh or eighth.

Did any survive before you?

R-Just one brother before me and he’s still living.

When you were a child, can you remember any relations living with you?

R-No, I don’t think there’d be any room for relatives.

Did you ever have any lodgers?

R-No.

So when you were born, your father’s job ‘ud be…

R-Weaving.

And your mother would be weaving as well?

R-Yes. It’s possible they could have met in the mill you know. A lot of marriages were like….

Oh yes, I met my wife at work. Do you have any idea which mill they worked at in Barlick?

R-Not really, I’ve heard ‘em talk of Billycock. But I believe it would have been at Long Ing.

How old was your father when he died?

R- I think he were 32. He came out of the Great War badly smashed up and he died. Well, he died when I were five years old, that’d be 1921.

Did he work after he came out of the war?

R- No, he were disabled when he came out of the war.

Would he be on a pension?

R- I fancy so.

It wouldn’t be much though? [SCG’s grandmother received a pension of 26/3 per week for herself and three children in respect of the death of her husband in the 1914/18 war. Disability would have been less than this.]

R-Oh no.

Now, your mother, did she work outside the home after she was married?

R-Oh aye, it were like a joint income that kept the place going, apart from being in the family way. I’ve heard me mother say that she’s taken a child out nursing, one walking by her side, she’s had a baby in her arms, carrying it, and one in her belly. And I’ve heard her say she’s known young women have a baby inside the mill, in a little basket.

Like take the babies with them?

R-Aye.

Yes, so that they could nurse them, they’d be breast feeding them.

R-That’s right.

And she’d be weaving?

R-Aye.

So what hours would she be working then?

R-Six o’clock in the morning ‘til six at night, up to Friday night and Saturday morning from six o’clock ‘til twelve. How many hours is that?

I can’t work it out straight away. [Standard hours pre-1919 was 55 ½ hours a week. This was reduced in 1919 to 48 hours. The Amalgamated Union census of wages in 1913 gave an average wage of 26/3 for a four loom weaver.]

R-There’d be breaks in between for dinner hour and breakfast.

What sort of a wage would she get for that?

R-Pound maybe.

How many looms?

R-Four looms, you had to be an exceptionally good weaver to have five looms in them days.

Four looms, aye. And if you had five looms you nearly always …..

R-Had a tenter, that’s right, aye.

Now there’s one thing, if you had a weaver’s help Ernie, who paid the weaver’s help, was it the weaver or the management?

R-Well, any pay ‘ud be from the weaver not the management.

That’s it, that’s something I’ve been trying to find out about.

R-And it’d only be coppers.

Yes. Well, Billy Brooks reckons that when he went to weave as a child, half time, he was paid….. I think he said it were…. No, when he went full time at first he was paid five shillings a week. [I was unclear of my facts at this time. Billy was weaving two looms when he got this wage. SCG.]

R-I’ve never heard of that, even in my day.

And sixpence for sweeping up.

R-It ‘ud be t’weaver who paid the sixpence, it wouldn’t be the boss.

Who looked after the children while she was working?

R-Well there were child minders. I had an aunt [who was a] child minder. She’d have about six or eight little uns to look after. I don’t know how much a week they paid like but it wouldn’t be much. And then most of the children went to school at three years old.

At three?

R-Aye, if you could get them in I suppose. I think I were three or four when I went into t’school.

That’d be to get you into school so they didn’t have to pay a child-minder.

R-That’s right.

So when that happened and you were going to school, between six o’clock in the morning and when you went to school you’d have to look after yourself. Between your mother going to work and you going to school.

R-That’s right. Well, th’oldest in the family used to be in charge.

That’s it. How old was your mother when she died?

R-Seventy three.

How old were you when she died? How long ago was that?

R-About ten years ago, 52 I’d be.

Did any of your family, your brothers or sisters, leave Barlick, you know, say before 1930. Did they leave Barlick to go and find work elsewhere, or did they all stay in the town.

R-No, they all stayed in the town.

Now, out of the houses you lived in as a child, which one do you remember best?



No 1 John Street in 1979.

R-Number 1 John Street, after me father had died. No money coming in, there were five of us living in this house, one up and one down, half a crown a week rent [2/6 or 12 ½ p.]. Me mother couldn’t go to work because she had a little baby and three besides. Our Wilson, when me father died he were only one year old, me sister was four or five, I was six and me elder brother [Fred] was ten.

And your father died in 1920?

R-Oh, it’d be what, 1922? Aye.

So you were living in 1 John Street in 1922 and it was half a crown a week rent.

R-And me mother had 25/- a week [£1-25p.] what did they call it then? Relief I suppose.

Parish?

R-Aye, Parish. She had that for a couple of years, really hard times they were. As young as I were at the time I can remember it as if it were yesterday, hard times. Gas goes out, no penny to put in’t meter. So they were, they were poverty days and not just us, it were general that. Twenty Five shillings a week for five of us.

How many bedrooms did the house have?

R-Just one bedroom. Two beds we had in one bedroom.

And what other rooms were there?

R-Just one up and one down, no other rooms.

So there’d be no kitchen?

No, no kitchen, just a sink and a gas stove next to each other.

Can you remember any of the furniture in the house?

R-Well, a square table in the centre and me mother’s pride and joy, a corner cupboard, always looked after that. And a wringing machine and a dolly tub and posser, and a dresser and horse hair sofa and a couple of chairs.

How about rugs, peg rugs?

R-Aye, I think we’d have a pegged rug.

Any lino?

R-Oh no, not at that time, later….

No, that’s it, later, when times get better. Well, one of the questions I usually ask is ‘If you had a parlour, can you remember what furniture there was in it.’, but it couldn’t apply to you because you didn’t have a parlour. Which room did you have your meals in Ernie?

R-The parlour, the place where the wringing machine is and the big square table and the pegged rug and sand on’t floor.

That’s it, sand on the floor.

R-I used to go to Mrs Yates on Church Street, A happorth of sand on pay day. [This was half an old penny, equivalent to about a fifth of a modern penny]

Yes, it’s where that ironmongers….

R-No, it were a greengrocer’s shop funny enough, you could always get a happorth of sand there. I know I remember one time Raymond Riding and me went in for the week’s happorth of sand and as we walked in Mrs Yates was bent over a tub of apples. ‘Eh, he says, you’ve got a rare arse Mrs Yates. So she stood up and said What did you say? He says happorth of sand please.

Your mother did the cooking?

R-Oh aye.

And the washing?

R-And the baking, she were a marvellous cook and baker, me mother. Marvellous.

Yes, she’d have to be.

R-Oh she had to be.

And of course you wouldn’t have a bathroom?

R-Oh no. And t’toilet were at least, well, you come on th’end of John Street and it were there. I don’t suppose you’ll ever remember Dick Jagger? Well, he walked up Wapping thirty yards, full length of a row of houses to t’toilet and that were a tub, it were emptied once a week.

Who emptied that?

R-T,Council. I think they called it ‘night soil’.

Yes, that’s the polite name for it because they sometimes used to empty them at night. They wouldn’t empty them at night in Barlick, no, there’d be nobody bothered in Barlick.

R-Oh no. In fact I once pulled the handle down. It always intrigued me, it had a handle up here and a little iron door in the bottom.

Oh, was this the cart?

R-The cart, aye. And if you pulled the handle down the little door opened and it bloody fascinated me for years. It come up one day and I thought Eh, shall I? And I did, there were shit running all the way down Wapping. I set off running and they used to scatter that disinfectant powder about you know.

So where did you have a bath?

R-Oh, we had a bath, a zinc bath.

Aye, a tin bath.

R-Aye we always had a bath, once a week in front of the fire and a small tooth comb, always a good combing.

Aye, a nit comb.

R-Mine were red uns! I had red hair in them days.

And did you have a special bath night?

R-Friday night.

Aye, it always used to be Friday night. Did the house have piped water?

R-Oh yes, just cold.

One cold water tap downstairs.

R-Usually dripping!

How about stair carpet?

R-Are you joking? You can’t nail bloody carpet to stone, they were stone steps.

Do you think any of the neighbours had a stair carpet?

R-No, only t’landlord, he lived on the same row. Bloke called Lund. Mother used to call him ‘Monkey Lund’ I mean we were a set of buggers, we must have been, she got her notice to quit about once a week.

What do you think that were for? Down wi’ the rent?

R-Oh I don’t know. I think she always paid the rent. No I think we were mischievous you know.

How about curtains?

R-Oh, they’d be a bit of mill cotton dipped in a Fairy Dye, not a Fairy dye in them days but you could get Dolly blue and Dolly yellow. Well, they could have either blue or yellow curtains, yard or two of mill cotton, they’d have been, you know, skived. [A bad piece of cloth that had been cut out of a piece. This is different than a fent which was the cloth end cut off the piece.]

Aye, that’s it, can you remember [is that] what the neighbours had?

R-Oh most of them, aye, most of them.

That’s it, and can you remember any of the families not having curtains?

R-No, I don’t think I can. They’d all have a bit of a curtain up, I mean, they need a bit of privacy occasionally, don’t they.

Yes, did your mother use to donkey stone the doorstep?

R-Yes.

And that’d be fairly general?

R-Oh aye. They were a halfpenny apiece, you could have hard or soft. There were an old lass lived further up the street, called me in one time. Want to go to for a donkey stone, a soft un? They were a halfpenny. I’d been before and she gave me a halfpenny for going. So, she’d give me a halfpenny and I had to go for this donkey stone, I came back with it and no halfpenny for me. So I walked away and got to th’end of the street and I thought She’s forgotten. So I went back and knocked on’t door and she came to the door. Was that donkey stone a soft un or a hard un? I think we called her Mrs Parkinson. Eh, she says, I’m forgetting to give you a halfpenny lad, I am sorry. So she gave me a halfpenny. I were a crafty little bugger even in them days!

You must have been. Was the house gas lit?

R-Gas.

What sort of jets were they, mantles?

R-Mantles, oh yes. In summer you used to keep the door closed for chance a buzzer ‘ud come in and off went the mantle. I’ve always been a reader, me. I used to raise coppers for the Wizard, the Hotspur, oh reading, I used to love it and I still do.

When can you remember first having electric light? Did you ever have it at John Street?

R-Never.

How about household rubbish, it’d mostly get burned on the fire…

R-Dustbin, outside.

Were it outside the house or near the toilets?

R-Outside th’house.

How did your mother do the washing?

R-In’t sink and dolly tub and we had a rack, that were another part of the furniture, you used to hoist it up and down on a pulley. That were a luxury. I mean most people had a line or a piece of rope or string. What washing we had, we didn’t have that much washing you know, it were one shirt and happen one of these and two of that if you were lucky.

How often did your mother do the washing?

R-Oh, every week I fancy.

How long did it take her, any idea?

R-Oh, it must have taken her two or three hours and then she’d to get them dried and ironed.

How did she dry it, a line outside?

R-A line across the street.

How about ironing, did she iron?

R-She ironed on the big square table.

What sort of an iron was it?

R-It used to be a box iron, she used to get these little metal things red hot and put them inside the iron. Have you ever seen one of them?

Yes, like a cast iron block that went inside. But there were such things as gas irons weren’t there?

R-Oh aye.

And you’d be at home sometimes on washing day, what can you remember most clearly about washing day?

R-Well, whoever were available had to turn the wringer you see. I remember one particular day, in a hurry, wanting to go and play out, but I had to wind. So I’m winding like hell, you know, full speed, top gear, and it must have been a sheet going through and like it got to the end and I’m still winding like hell and it shot out. The handle slipped out of me fingers and it whizzed round and caught me right in between the legs, I don’t think I’ve been right since!

How did your mother clean the house?

R-Brush. I don’t suppose it took a lot of cleaning really, used to change the sand once a week, you didn’t bother about rugs.

Was there anything that she paid special attention to, something she really thought a lot about?

R-Only the corner cupboard.

Why do you think she thought such a lot about that?

R-Well I think she set up with that when she got married at first and most money she ever had in her life, she used to tell this story many a time. Before the family started growing up, may be she’d had one baby you know. She saved six half sovereigns in this corner cupboard. Her and me father went out for a drink one night and when they came back they’d had a burglar and these six half sovereigns were gone. She never got over that.

I should think not. And did you and the brothers and sisters have any jobs to do round the house, you know, regular jobs.

R-Oh aye, especially when our Wilson, the youngest, started school and me mother started work then weaving, and then we all had jobs. Fred, th’eldest brother he were always a milk lad, I were a lather boy. I don’t remember me sister ever having a job but I were a lather boy, I couldn’t have been very old, eight or nine maybe at the most.

That’d be at the barbers, lathering blokes up for a shave.

R-Aye, a bloke called Demeline. [Billy Demeline]

How about jobs round the house?

R-Well aye, a bit of washing up I suppose.

You’d all have to muck in.

R-Light the fire, oh aye. But when me mother started weaving I used to have an aunt come and she was paid half a crown a week to clean up.

Did the older children help the younger ones with dressing and eating, they’d have to help each other out?

R-Oh aye.

Did your father do any work in the house?

R-Oh no, he were buggered. He were just…. Well he managed to get a baby but otherwise he were badly smashed up. I’d forgot, after me father had been dead two or three years she’d made enquiries and they’d gone into me father’s war record and she finally got a war widows pension so things bucked up after that.

How much were that then, can you remember?

R-Oh, it’d be at least two pound a week. Well, that were a little fortune. She had a pension for herself and the three of us but t’youngest didn’t qualify for some reason. She’d have two pound odd a week.

And it was a rented house.

R-Oh aye, we’re still at number 1 John Street, half a crown a week.

How about the landlord, were he a good landlord?

R-Oh no, I think he were a Methodist, he weren’t a good landlord. They did say he bought all those seven houses for £300, the whole row. A bit of a sanctimonious fellow he was.

Did your mother ever do anything in the house when she wasn’t weaving. Did she ever do anything to earn an extra bit of money?

R-Oh no.

Do you remember anyone in the neighbourhood doing anything like that, any work at home, just to earn a bit more?

R-Well, what sort of work would they do?

Well, things like taking in washing or child minding.

R-Oh aye, they used to do that but not in my house. Oh plenty of that went on, taking in washing and child minding.

That house is still standing?

R-Yes, it’s a residential area now is John Street.

You mentioned that at one time you were on the Parish. How much a week was that?

R-Well, she drew 25/-.

Where did she get that 25/-?

R-It were fetched to the house every Saturday morning, 25/-, and the relief man finally got summonsed for robbing old folks and widows. Me mother should have been getting 35/- a week all that time. That ten bob a week would have made all the difference to her and us. But this bloody thief got fat robbing these poor people. They called him Harrison.

How long was that going on for?

R-Well it must have been going on for quite a while. He got nine months in the second division, whatever that is. I bet he’d have, what do you call them that tickle your palm? Freemason.

Ah yes, but actually I think second division was without hard labour. First division was with hard labour and second was without. I think that’s right.

R-Possibly it were. But that were his punishment, but he punished me mother and us and lots of people besides. Because in them days you know, they only had ten bob a week and that were their lot, I mean the old age pensioners.

Yes, what age did you draw the pension then? Do you remember?

R-No.

It don’t matter. Now then, back to the house, your mother cooking, what did she cook on?

R-On a gas stove. A rented gas stove. About five bob a year they were, rented from the Council. A solid job that used to sit there and take any amount of bloody punishment!

It weren’t black leaded were it?

R-I think it might have been, aye, black leaded.

Aye, I think parts of them would have been black leaded. Did she make her own bread?

R-Yes.

How much did she do at a time?

R-Depended how much brass she had I suppose, but I’ve seen her bake ten pounds of flour at a time. Aye, cakes, bread and all sorts, sad cakes, sometimes a custard, lovely they were.

Aye, that’d be like a weeks baking. And what kind of cakes did she bake?

R-Caraway seed cake, rice and currant pies, apple pies, blackberry pies when they were in season, any sort of pie. We were fetched up on rabbit pies as well.

Where did you get your rabbits?

R-Oh there were millions of rabbits round here, millions.

Who caught them?

R-My brother Fred, but I had an uncle that were a good man at it as well. Me uncle Ernest, the chap I’m named after.

Did your mother make Jam?

R-No, I don’t think she could make jam, she used to make lemon curd, that’s delicious. Sometimes I sit back and think I wonder how they made it. I know there were eggs in it, eggs were only …. You’d get a baker’s dozen for a shilling you know, if you had a shilling. [A ‘Baker’s Dozen’ was 13. SCG.]

Aye, if you had a shilling. Did she make pickles?

R-No.

[SIDE TWO]

Did your mother ever make any home made medicine?

R-No. She used to take medicine every night, all the years I knew her. A pennyworth of Beecham’s Pills, you used to get a screw of them for a penny. [Beecham’s pills were sold in a little twist of paper. I think there were about 6 in a twist. SCG.]

Yes, that’s it, every night. And what did you usually have for breakfast?

R-Oh I don’t know, it varied I suppose. If we were lucky we’d have a boiled egg. Oh, but one thing she could make, a thousand sandwiches with one boiled egg, egg butties. She used to soft boil it and dip the knife in, marvellous she were.

How about Sunday dinner, did you do better then?

R-Well, it’d be rabbit pie. These are hard times I’m talking about, before things bucked up a bit. But one thing about me mother, when she did get her war widows pension and we were better off, we used to live like fighting cocks, roast beef on a Sunday, Yorkshire pudding and nice vegetables.

What would you usually have for your dinner during the week?

R-Well, it’d be catch as catch can wouldn’t it? Oh, there used to be a café, you could get torpedo and peas for three pence and it used to be a standing order when things bucked up a bit.

What were that fellers name, whereabouts were that, on Wapping?

R-No, on Lamb Hill, bottom of Manchester Road, Holmes’s café. It used to be full of kids at dinnertime, pie and peas for three pence and me mother used to pay at weekend.

I’m not sure if Newton hasn’t told me about being sent out there on an outside job by his father, his grate had fallen out of his oven. How about tea, at tea time?

R-Oh well, there used to be a bloke called Bob Hudson came round with fish you know. Kippers were only tuppence a pair so we could have half a kipper apiece for tea. And cockles and mussels. Eh, I mean, every day wi’out fail, Bob’d come round and he used to have fifty or sixty cats trailing him ‘cause he used to gut these fish and chop ‘em up a bit and chuck his debris in a bucket hanging on the back of the cart. Cats used to sneak up and put a paw in and grab a bit.

How would them come into the town do you think. By train? Coming in on the railway?

R-The fish? Oh aye, everything come in on the railway, everything came in and out.

When you went to bed, did you ever have any supper?

R-Aye I fancy so but I can’t remember really.

Did you have a garden or an allotment?

R-Are you joking?

I’m joking! So you never kept any animals at all.

R-Oh, we always had a dog. Aye, Old Jack. He seemed to last as long as….. t’poor old lad got killed eventually but he were a good rabbiter.

How about your Sunday dinner, how about puddings, did you manage a pudding?

R-Oh aye, rice pudding, sago pudding, rhubarb pie, apple pie and custard of course.

How much milk did your mother get a day, any idea?

R-No, no idea. A pint a day may be, it were fairly cheap then.

How was it delivered?

R-It were delivered the old fashioned way, in a can and t’milk lad poured the milk into whatever you had available, a jam jar or a jug if you were lucky.

Aye, a lading tin. How about butter, margarine and dripping?

R-We always had butter and dripping, never margarine. For some reason me mother seemed to think it were some concoction, it’d poison us all.

She could have possibly been right! How about fruit?

R-Fruit? Oh well in them days Savage used to sell out Saturday night, about ten or eleven o’clock at night. You could get a bunch of bananas for a tanner. Happen 30. Bags of apples, everything were very cheap, he used to sell all his fish and fruit off because there was no refrigerators. Oh, there could have been couldn’t there?

So, he’s aiming for a clearance on a Saturday night.

R-He used to sell out every Saturday night. So I fancy th’old girl used to get fruit there but I think it might have been a bit of a luxury because I don’t remember a banana.

Well, I’ve a list of foods here, you tell me how often you used to have them, I’ll list em, shout out, banana is the first one.

R-luxury.

Rabbit?

R-Oh regular.

Fried food?

R-Well, bacon and egg.

Fish.

R-Kippers and cod fish.

Cheese?

R-I don’t remember any cheese.

Cow heel, tripe, trotters, black puddings?

R-Oh plenty, yes, all that.

Eggs?

R-Aye.

Tomatoes?

R-Yes, tomatoes in season but I don’t think they were as common then as they are now because every bugger grows ‘em now.

Grapefruit?

R-Oh no.

Sheep’s head?

R-Sheep’s head yes. They are very tasty a sheep’s head. She used to make broth with sheep’s head in, bones and all.

That’s not down on the list here but I’ve seen us go out and get bones for the dog and boil it for broth first and then give the bones to the dog.

R-Oh aye, you could make a meal very cheaply you know. A penny onion, two or three potatoes for a penny, half a pound of pie bits for about threepence, that’s only fivepence, and a pinch of salt.

Yes, and you start with a good stew.

R-Aye, I’ll tell you what we used to do when we were kids. It sounds a bit cruel nowadays but this Ernest I mentioned before [his uncle] he used to trap starlings in winter and we used to skin ‘em and hang ‘em on the top bar and spit ‘em and keep turning ‘em round until they were cooked.

When you say ‘top bar’ you mean over the fire?

R-That’s right. Hang ‘em there on a piece of string and keep turning ‘em round and they are good, tasty with plenty of fat on them and we used to eat them regular.

Bones and all?

R-Oh I wouldn’t say bones and all.

Can you remember if your mother ever bought much tinned stuff?

R-No.

What vegetables did you eat most often?

R-Well, It’d be the cheapest vegetable, cabbage. But I think we were, for a long time I think, we were deficient of some diet, some diet you know. We didn’t get a balanced diet like it is today. I mean, you can see the difference in the young uns today and when I was young. I’m bow-legged, and it were common in those days for kids to be bow-legged.

And do you think that’s what caused it?

R-I think so, a stodgy diet, not enough vegetables and fruit.

Well, rickets used to cause bow legs didn’t it. So do you think you had it, just a mild case you know?

R-Aye. Oh I think I might, I might have had. From all accounts, when I were really young I were on half a dozen death beds in no time. Aye, it’s true that, so they tell me.

So you can’t remember much about tinned food, have you any idea why your mother wouldn’t have it?

R-Well, it must have been an expensive way of living then, like it is now.

Yes, quite. How about family drink? Tea, coffee, cocoa?

R-Tea, we always liked tea.

No coffee or cocoa?

R-No.

How about Christmas dinner, what can you remember about that?

R-Christmas dinner, well, we once had a turkey and I collected it at Savages and it were a big un. I were walking up Wapping wi’ it over me shoulder and its head were trailing on the floor. I must have been about eight happen. Th’old girl had raised the wind somehow I suppose but we had turkey that year.

That’d be about 1924?

R-It could be, aye.

Any idea how much it cost then, the turkey?

R-Oh no, no idea.

What was your favourite food when you were that age?

R-I don’t think I had a favourite food.

No, you’d be hungry all the time. That’s it, sense in that. If you had a really bad week and your mother were hard up, really hard up one week….

R-on her chin strap.

Aye, that’s it. What would you get to eat that week. When things got down to rock bottom, what was the main thing you ate then?

R-Oh, it’d be nothing happen. I remember me mother coming up to school at play time. They used to lock the gates then at Church School. And I remember her pushing a banana through t’bars for me, I hadn’t had any breakfast so she must have been desperate that day.

When you say ‘Church School’ do you mean York Street CofE?

R-Oh yes, well all the family did.

How about people that were working, they wouldn’t come home for their meals would they? They’d take ‘em to the mill wi’ ‘em.

R-Aye, we used to have a can you know.

Brew can?

R-Brew can and bait tin.

What would they generally take? Sandwiches or something to warm up?

R-Aye it’d be sandwiches, bread and jam, tomato, bananas, potted meat happen.

When your mother went back to the mill and you were at home did you ever take food into the mill for her?

R-No. But I used to come up to this mill [Bancroft] with a can of tea for me aunt Louise. That were afore me mother started work, when me younger brother were really young you know. Happen about one or two year old, and I used to come up here wi’ a can of tea for me aunt Louise.

Why was that? Why did you bring a can of tea for her, why didn’t she brew it here?

R-I don’t know. I don’t think they’d be allowed to brew it here.

Is that right?

R-And then, I think they’d only have steam at certain times, meal time and they used to pay a penny a week you know.

Aye, for brewing tea, for use of the boiling water.

R-Aye, it’s a bloody good job they didn’t sell blood in those days or they’d have been giving a pint of blood a week, besides t’favour.

Can you remember your mother going short to make sure that you had something?

R-Oh I’m certain she did, certain. I mean, I remember her in those days, she were like a bloody skinned rabbit. I don’t think she were above six stone or seven at the outside, and had all them children, she must have gone short.

How old would she be, say in 1925?

R-Thirty?

Thirty, aye, that’d be about right.

R-She were married young you see, she’d had eleven children, one every year, two in one year, she’d two in ten months.

Who usually did the shopping?

R-Well, it were a pennorth of this and a pennorth of that. There were a shop, just opposite our house, Matthews shop, grocers. I mean there were penny packets of tea, penny onion, pennorth of taties, I mean, who does t’shopping?

Vegetables. Where did you get them?

R-Well it’d be Savages I suppose, or Mrs Yates, You could buy cut apples and oranges, you get a good do for a penny. You know, same as apples half rotten, cut off.

That’s it, they still do it. He [Jack Savage] still does it.

R-I suppose they do, aye.

Savages, you can still go into Savages and get you know, a little bag of vegetables for a stew.

R-That’s right. Broth bits they call ‘em.

And a lot of that’s like good bits cut out of the old uns. There’s nothing wrong wi’ it, nothing wrong wi’ it.

R-Oh no.

Where would your mother get her meat when she could afford meat?

R-Ah, Tomlinson, he had a butcher’s shop on Church Street, Jack Tomlinson. He were very good with me mother. He used to slip her a bit, you know, I mean a bit of meat!

Did your mother shop at the Co-op?

R-No, only the wealthy shopped at the Co-op in them days. Share holders, I mean I think it were £2 to be a member.

Yes, but surely you could shop at the Co-op if you weren’t a member?

R-Oh yes, certainly you could but I never remember me mother going to the Co-op.

Aye, that’s interesting. Was there a market in Barlick in them days?

R-There were an open market down t’Butts. We used to go there for bargains. And then there were t’Majestic Ballroom, that were a market about twice a week, maybe once a week, Thursdays. No, now I come to think about it it were permanent because when me mother got a pension she got some back pay and she took me in there and she bought me a scooter. I wouldn’t be so old then and it were a flag floor and there were a market inspector catching me be the scruff of me neck and he were going to chuck me out for riding this scooter. I said ‘Me mother’s just bought it’ so he let me off.

Do you think there was much difference in the prices between the local shop at the corner of John Street and those in the middle of the town?

R-Oh I don’t know, I shouldn’t think so. I mean supermarkets were unheard of in those days, price wars and cut prices. There’d be a bit of difference.

How about credit, would there be any chance? Would they give credit at the corner shop?

R-Oh yes. It were regular were credit. Yes, everyone had a shop book. I mean that’s how grocers got to be so well off, sneaking odd little items in.

How about pawnshops?

R-Oh marvellous pawnshops! Do you know, it’s my ambition to be a pawnbroker, it is. I’ve always said if I win a lot of money on t’pools, I’ll be a pawnbroker. They’re salvation, it’s a religion to me is pawnbroking. I mean they do a real service. If there were a pawnbrokers shop in Barlick and I were hard up but had some article I could raise a shilling or two on I’d go there rather than ask anyone to lend me. I’ve been in t’pawnbrokers hundreds of bloody times.

That’d be Jimmy Wraw’s in Barlick wouldn’t it.

R-Yes it were.

Was there just one in Barlick or more than one?

R-No, just one.

Aye, and did your mother use the pawnshop?

R-Regular. I had a…. when I got about 14 or 15 I had a pin-striped suit and the bloody thing were more often in the pawnshop than out. In at Monday, out at Friday, I think Friday must have been payday.

Aye, I’ve heard it said that some people actually thought that one of the beauties about pawnbroking was that their clothes were actually better off and they were out of the way at the pawnbrokers than they were at home. People then hadn’t got wardrobes. [In later years I found that there was a similar situation in New York. People would take their winter clothes in to the dry cleaner in Spring and leave them there all summer to save on space in their apartments. They did the same thing in Autumn with their summer clothes.]

R-well, that’s a good idea, I fancy it is so. They used to wrap them up and there were plenty of moth balls about. [Moths were a big problem in those days because houses were damper and they could breed in anything made of wool. The grubs ate the wool and this is the origin of the term ‘moth-eaten’. The defence was moth balls, or more often moth rings, shaped like a small ring [Trade name for the rings was Mothaks] . One of these would be hung on a piece of string on the clothes hanger. They were made of camphor and would keep moths away from the clothes. This was true until central heating became common in the mid 20th century.]

Yes, if you had a good suit it were better looked after at Jimmy Wraw’s than it were at home. So you think there’d be good business in the pawnshops then?

R-Aye, they did good business. And if you wanted to buy a secondhand coat or owt you could go and buy a forfeited pledge they called it. You put an article in, I think it were a halfpenny a month for two bob value, over twelve months. Then you could redeem that loan, if you didn’t redeem it you lost the article. It were really high interest to pay but it were convenient.

Yes, but it was always there, it was convenient. Would you say that the pawnshop was fair?

R-Yes, especially wi’ a bloke like that. What did they call him, can you remember, him with the bald head?

I can remember him but I don’t know his name.

R-Aye, I’ve forgotten his name but he were a grand chap.

And they’d be widely used. Would you think that other people looked on them in the same light?

R-You mean the better off people?

Well, the high society, how would they regard them?

R-Oh I reckon they’d look down on them. They might call it a den of iniquity. I did hear a story one time, they reckon there were a young woman went into Wraw’s one time and she said to this pawnbroker, ‘Do you take anything?’ He says ‘Yes’. So she says ,’Will you give me five shillings on this until I gets me insurance?’ and she put her belly on the counter, she were eight months gone! And he might have given her the five bob.

Aye, possibly, he were a decent bloke. Can you ever remember anyone lending money?

R-Do you mean man to man?

Well, not necessarily, no. Somebody that regularly, someone in the neighbourhood that you could go to if you were really hard up and borrow off ‘em?

R-You mean a money lender? No. Not in my experience.

How about Provident cheques and things like that.

R-Oh yes, aye, Provident cheques, I think most people had Provident cheques.

Did your mother ever have them?

R-Oh I think she did. I know a Scotchman used to come, they used to call them Scotchmen, these trading men you know.

Aye, what was the other…. Tallyman wasn’t it, Tallyman.

R-Tallyman.

They wouldn’t have just as good a name as pawnbrokers would they? Because it were fairly high interest for what you got.

R-Aye.

Were there anything that you used to eat when you were young that you can’t get now? Can you think of anything?

R-Well, rice and currant pie. I haven’t had that since I were young.

No, it isn’t often made now. And rabbit, there isn’t a lot of rabbit about now is there?

R-Well, I don’t fancy rabbit now, not after myxomatosis job, another invention of the bloody devil. Myxomatosis, terrible, an invented disease just for money, t’profit job, they were eating farmer’s grass.

Now you were born in 1916. so you’ll not remember the First World War. Can you remember ever having to queue though?

R-No.

Things were improving then.

R-Aye, by the time I realised what a queue was.

Did your mother ever make any of your clothes?

R-Oh never. I used to dread her darning me bloody stockings!

Is that right?

R-Oh she were the worst darner and sewer in the world but the best cook. She couldn’t stitch a button on, not right I don’t think.

Aye, that’s funny that isn’t it. How about passed on clothes?

R-Oh aye, they were mostly hand me downs. Jumble sales you know, in them days they were very popular. In fact you couldn’t get in unless you were early. I used to love going to jumble sales even when I were growing up, youth and manhood. I used to go looking for bloody antiques you know, but everybody’s been educated since them days , there’s bugger all now, only worn out hand me downs.

If your mother bought any clothes [for herself] where would she usually buy them.

R-I don’t remember her ever buying any. She had a few sisters and they used to hand them down. I don’t think I ever saw me mother dressed up in all me life. Not really dressed up, fancy hat on and all you know.

What happened to your old clothes, if you had any?

R-Well, t’rag chap used to come round and you’d get a donkey stone for ‘em. But mind you, they’d be old. There’d be t’breeches arse out of those we’re talking about.

What did you wear for school?

R-Well, what did you wear for school, you wore what you wore every other day, Sunday included.

Aye, apart from the pin stripe suit.

R-Oh well, that were in later days when things bucked up. I remember running round Barlick wi’ me breeches arse out singing ‘Vote vote vote for Dicky Roundell’ Well, I didn’t find out for years he were a bloody Tory, I didn’t know any different.

And it’d be clogs of course?

R-If you were lucky. Oh, I can tell you a little story about clogs. There were a manufacturer in Barlick called Slater, he used to run t’Clough. He must have been sympathetic towards me and me elder brother, we had an old pair of shoes on I suppose, or broken clogs or something. There were a clogger shop at bottom of Manchester Road and he took us in there one Saturday morning and he said to t’clogger, Barlow they called t’clogger. Barlow, make these two lads a pair of clogs apiece, today. And I sat there all Saturday and he made these clogs and Slater left instructions with Barlow to tell us that when a clog iron broke we were to go in there and have it mended. Now in my mind he were a saint, I mean, taking pity on two poor lads like that.

Do you think he did that for anyone else?

R-I never heard of it. And that chap used to slip me sixpence many a time. He’s even taken me to Yates, greengrocer’s shop and picked me a nice apple out. I remember that fellow as if it were yesterday, he were one of the ugliest fellows, facially ugly, I’ve ever seen in me life but he were a gentleman.

Do you think your mother ever worked at Clough?

R-Maybe when she was a girl.

How about a hat, did you wear a hat in those days?

R-Shawl.

You wore a shawl?

R-No, not me, Oh do you mean did I wear a hat? Oh no, I might have had a cap, aye.

Now, well I like caps.

R-I’d look bloody well wi’ a shawl on! Yes, I had a cap, they were only a shilling at Atkinson’s it had this fancy badge on the front, I remember it, I fancy that’d last me a long time.

And of course, you’d have your pin stripe suit for Sunday best.

R-Oh aye.

What did your mother wear for housework?

R-She wore for housework what she wore for everything else.

That’s it but she’d wear a pinny wouldn’t she?

R-Oh aye.

Were it a pinny or a fent?

R-No, it’d be a pinny I think.

But she’d take that off before she went out wouldn’t she? I know me mother used to be the same, she didn’t want to be seen out of the house wi’ a pinny on. Always struck me did that. I’ve a question here, how many outfits did you have at any one time?

R-An outfit! Bloody puncture outfit happen. How many outfits….. Oh.

When you were all at home did you all sit down for your meals together?

R-Yes, well, I don’t think there were room for everyone to sit down together., first there is first served.

Yes, but everyone had a meal at the same time?

R-I think there’d be one or two standing but we all had a meal at the same time, yes.

Was your mother strict about behaviour at the table?

R-Oh yes, very strict. I remember her throwing a loaf at Wilson, he ducked and it caught me reight in’t nose and there were blood on the ceiling. Oh, she were a bugger for discipline.

So she’d be fairly hard on you for like times you came in at night?

R-Well, she weren’t very strict, not that way but she was strict in others. I remember one time, I’d happen be about seven or eight, swimming in Calf Hall dam, naked. Someone told me mother. Well, I were like delicate, I weren’t supposed to go swimming or get witchered [getting wet feet] or acting the goat in that way. She came up there, dragged me out of the dam and made me walk home naked from Calf Hall dam to John Street and every few strides she’d whack me arse wi’ a picking band. Aye, memories…..

Can you remember anyone saying grace before a meal?

R-Oh no.

Prayers at home?

R-No, never.

When you went to bed?

R-No.

If you had a birthday was it any different than any other day?

R-No.

Presents?

R-Christmas we used to get a bit of sommat, an orange or an apple. Oh, I remember one time at Christmas, Salvation Army came, we had all gone to bed, the five of us, nothing in the house and the Salvation Army came and banged on t’door and me mother got up, we’d a basket of Christmas fare. I think they’re my favourite religion, the Sally Army. If you remember during the war, the Salvation Army were always there, and even today, if there’s a disaster, they are always there, any part of the world.

Can you remember Easter?

R-Easter eggs. But they were home made Easter eggs, hard boiled. Coffee comes into this. If you put some coffee in a pan and boil a white egg you get a beautiful brown egg and then we used to go out rolling ‘em.

Was there any musical instruments in the house?

R-We were always musical, tin whistles, mouth organ, we had a piano, an organ, when things bucked up. Early days when we started work, me and Wilson, me younger brother, bought a piano and organ for ten bob and we didn’t half give them some hammer for a week or two and we came home from work one night and she’d given them to t’rag chap!

How about a Jew’s harp?

R-Oh aye, a Jew’s harp as well.

When you were a kid, did you ever make bones?

R-Oh aye, bones and knocking spoons as well.

Aye, pieces of slate. That’s it, so you’d have sing songs then?

R-Oh I fancy we would. Aye we used to have sing songs. Me mother were always whistling and singing and I’m a whistler, I’m always whistling.


SCG/26 May 2001
8812 words



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/2

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE JUNE 22 1978 AT BANCROFT ENGINE HOUSE, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER, AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.



Now then Ernie, I just want to start with one or two things that cropped up off last weeks tapes. Have you remembered where the house on Colne Road was?

R-Aye, No. 9, Westgate, that were a decent house.

When you say ‘decent house’, what do you mean?

R-Well, a decent house, better standard than No. 1 John Street, two bedrooms and kitchen and sitting room and a back door and a yard.

When did you move there?

R-Oh, I’d be about 15.

So, you were born in 1916, that ud be about 1931, you’d be working by then.

R-Oh yes, things had bucked up by this time. Two workers in th’house, me and Fred.

Now then, when you were on about your mother catching you in Calf Hall Dam you said that when she chased you down the road she were belting you with a picking band all t’time. Now, what’s a picking band?

R-It’s a piece of leather used on a loom.

Another thing, I remember you saying ‘witchered.

R-Oh well, it means if you get your feet wet.

Now when you went for that sand and that lad said ‘Eh what a nice arse you’ve got Mrs Yates, who were that?

R-That were a bloke called Raymond Riding.

When Fred got his first job, did you say he was hawking milk?

R-He were a milk boy aye.

Can you remember how much he was paid?

R-Three and six a week.

How old were he then?

R-He’d be about nine or ten I suppose, because later on, oh I were a lather boy later on.

Who was Fred working for when he was hawking milk?

R-A farmer called Taylforth.

Oh, would that be Dennis Taylforth’s father?

R-Calf Hall Farm. I remember they called the horse Captain, he used to gallop along, farting. Because as Fred grew older and I grew up a bit I got that milk job, it were like brother to brother.

Same money?

R-Aye, t’same wage, three and six. Then t’farmer’s wife used to give me us an egg or two. I’ll tell you a little tale about that, [I’d got] me first new suit wi’ long pants. We used to go up about half past three in the afternoon, to help to muck out. We finished mucking out and I were just leaning, brush and shovel up against the wall, outside and a bloke called Willie Ralph says ‘Bring t’shovel here Ernie, there’s a cow going to shite’. So I run in with a shovel, put it under its tail and it coughed.

Were it in summer?

R-Aye, it were in summer, it had been out on’t fog.

Oh, reight, reight grand fog muck, you’d be a fair mess then?

R-Oh, I were off work that night, I didn’t tek t’milk.

Did you used to take the milk at night then?

R-Oh aye, morning and night.

[Fog is the local name for the aftermath, the first sweet growth of grass after haymaking which is very juicy but low in fibre. It makes the cow’s muck very thin, green and evil smelling. When the cow coughed, Ernie would get it full in the face. There is another small point here, normally in summer, the only time the cattle would be in would be for milking. Because they were hawking milk in the days before refrigeration and taking it twice a day, you would expect them to take it as fresh as possible. Ernie says he used to go up there at half past three in the afternoon. This suggests they were doing an afternoon milking so as to have the freshest milk possible for delivery. There is a corollary to this, ideally, milking should be 12 hours apart so the morning milking would be very early in order to have the milk ready in time for the first delivery.]

R-And most mornings you were late for school and got t’stick.

What time did you go round in the morning with the milk. What time were you up?

R-Oh it’d be fairly early. We finished taking the milk, most of it, by school time, nine o’clock so they must have started about seven o’clock.

Did you go to the same customers night and morning?

R-Yes, winter and summer.

When you were a lather boy, how much did you get there?

Three and six a week but that was slavery. Every night after school at four o’clock, I used to go there, to Billy Demeline’s. Mrs Demeline used to have a little tea ready for me you know, she were very good to me really. But moneywise, it were hopeless. Every night after school, four o’clock, until the last customer came in at night, that could be any time up to eight o’clock at night during t’week. Saturday, all day Saturday till any time at night. Three and six.

Whereabouts were that shop?

R-Next door but one to the Seven Stars, it’s still there now, it’s Woodworth’s watch making shop.

That’s it, aye. That were a barber’s shop?

R-Aye, it must have been a barber’s shop for oh, years and years.

And, lather boy, your job’d be sweeping the floor up and lathering them up.

R-Lathering, all the [customers for shaving] there were two models in that area you know in them days. [Ernie is referring to the two ‘model lodging houses’ that were down Butts. One of them became a garage, the larger one, further down Butts became Briggs and Duxbury’s builder’s yard. They are both built of Accrington Brick. They were used by the weavers who had no permanent address in the town.] Where all the tramp weavers used to live.

Which were the two models?

R-Well, that one at t’bottom of Butts and what is Briggs and Duxbury’s woodyard now.

Oh, was that a model lodging house as well, the red brick building?

R-That’s right.

I didn’t know that. And the money you earned, did you tip it up to your mother?

R-Oh yes.

All of it?

R-Oh aye. Well we used to get a bob back you know. But in any case, for a shave it were twopence halfpenny and a lot of customers used to give me the odd halfpenny so I made a bob or two that way.

How about school meals?, did you ever get any meals at school?

R- Oh no.

Can you ever remember anyone getting a free meal at school?

R-Never.

How about medical inspections?

R-Oh aye. The nit nurse used to come round what, every week. And the dentist but not very often. There were no fillings, they were out if they were rotten and there were a lot of rotten teeth. Like I’ve said before, bow legs and rotten teeth used to go like hand in hand.

Did the dentist work at school? Did he take them out at school or did you have to go to him?

I don’t remember, I think he worked at school.

How about the doctor coming round to school, looking at you.

R-Never saw one.

And the attendance man?

R-Oh yes. You’d got to be there, it were, well you know, he’d come to your house, he wanted to know where you were.

What did they call him? Was that what they called him, Attendance Man, or was there another name round here?

R-School Bobby, that’s what they called him.

Were he in uniform?

R-No, but he were a very strict man as I remember, it were t’same feller all the time I were at school.

Did you know his name?

R-No, I don’t remember his name. But I had no problem, as I always went to school, if I weren’t ill like.

Where there a lot didn’t go?

R-Oh, plenty.

What reason mainly, just laiking about?

R-Oh aye, and then it weren’t a very happy time at school then. They used to whack you with t’bloody stick for no reason at all sometimes. I can remember getting caned and fainting, Mr Turner, from Earby,

Yes, we’ll get on to school in more detail in a minute. Can you remember the school inspectors coming round?

R-Yes, and if there were a pupil that were a bit brainy, you know, and t’master used to say “Stand up Roberts and answer questions for Mr So and so.” Not Roberts very often, but sometimes.

We were on the other week about lending money and I know that you did tell me during the week that you’d remembered someone that lent money. Who was it?

R-Isaac Levi.

Was that the same Isaac Levi that had a shop down Earby?

R-Yes, well, I think it were his son had that shop in Earby. But this is a long while after Isaac Levi had this little shop in Walmsgate.

Whereabouts was the shop in Walmsgate?

R-You know where Billy Blackburn lives now? Well, it were there.

Oh, the end house in the row where Savages started up? [16 Walmsgate]

R-That’s right.

That’s it, yes. And did he lend money for interest?

R-Yes.

Any idea what the interest was?

R-No idea but he were a very good man were Isaac. I mean, he helped a lot of people. I’ve heard, but lots of people talk, in fact I’ve never heard anyone cry Isaac down. Most people that knew him said he were a nice chap.

And you did mention during the week that Savages first started up as a greengrocer’s business in Walmsgate. Whereabouts was that?

R-That’d be next door but three to Isaac’s.

Where the butcher’s shop is now? [8 Walmsgate]

R-That’s right.

What’s his name in the butcher’s shop now?

R-Alan Fielding [This was in 1978. In 2001 it is still a butchers but is run by Stephen Bell.]

That’s it Alan Fielding, and Savages started up there?

R-Me mother told me, she remembered him starting and he had a box of onions, they used to be in like orange boxes did onions, and a barrel of apples and I fancy he’d have a few vegetables as well.

Any idea when that was?

R-Oh. It must have been a long time since.

Yes. Now, while you were living down there, can you remember Bancroft starting up?

R-No, I don’t remember it starting up. I think it started in 1920 and I would only be four then.

That’s it. You’ll be able to remember weavers coming up in the morning to Bancroft?

R-Oh aye. I mean Bancroft’s been like a permanent feature in my lifetime here. There used to be 1100 looms running. There’d be, what would there be, three hundred at least working up there in them days, so you can imagine when t’shop stopped, all them trooping down Wapping wi’ clogs on.

Aye, wi’ their clogs, wearing the street out. Good enough Ernie. Now then, there’s something else come up here, about Isaac Levi being a bookmaker as well.

R-Aye, That’s right, he was. And he were a decent bookmaker as well but they did tell a tale about him being diddled a few times before he tumbled to this dodge. This town, Barnoldswick, it’s always been a gambling town, there used to be a gambling club, they called it the Betting Club, up Market Street. But this trick that these fly boys played on Isaac, they used to go in wi’ a bet, and he’d say, ‘Put it in the shoe box’. You see he’d have a shoe box, maybe on his counter. He’d read the bet of course and he’d say to the bloke, or he might throw it into the shoe box. But somebody had a bright idea, they got two pieces of paper and wrote a winning bet out and then stuck another bet on top wi’ a bit of spit. Well, Isaac threw both bets in the box and by the time reckoning up time came this bit of spit had dried and these two pieces of paper fell apart. So there were a winning bet in the box to start wi’. Twisting buggers, I don’t like twisters. Oh pigeon flying, all sorts of competitions, t’bowling green at t’Conservative Club ground, you know it were a beautiful bowling green that.

Whereabouts was the Conservative Club ground?

R-Butts.

Whereabouts at Butts?

R-Well you know where the welfare place is now, the clinic? Well sideways on to that. You can see it’s a been a bowling green even today. It’s fenced off now, it belongs to TB Fords [In 2001 it was Carlson Ford] but they used to have, happen twice in a summer, they’d have frizzles and all us Wappinger lads used to get to know about these frizzles and you know, we’d be there.

What’s a frizzle?

R-Oh, they used to fry in big trays, chops and eggs…

What they’d call a barbecues now.

R-Well, aye, I suppose they do. Chops and liver and bacon and eggs, oh it were a real bloody do. And they used to feed us, these chaps, Tories, aye Conservative Club.

How did Isaac go on wi’ his bets?

R-Oh well, from all accounts he tumbled it. He wouldn’t summons ‘em, he’d just bar ‘em I suppose. If they showed their face in the shop he’d just say ‘out’. Did I tell you, when we were coming home from school, if we were feeling devilish, his door was always open, we’d stop at his door and shout inside, ‘Who Killed Christ!’. And run like hell.

There you are! Oh well, we’ll get back to these questions about life in the home, I’ve no doubt we’ll digress again but still…… Were there any games that your mother played in the house with you, or that you played between yourselves?

R-No, I don’t think so. I think we had, what did you call that game where you used to pull the spring and t’ball used to fly down?

Oh God! We’ve got one at home. You’re not supposed to be asking me the questions! I know what you mean.
[It was bagatelle of course.]

R-We had one of them for a long time. Aye, if the weather were really bad we’d play cards, I don’t know, but there were, there were never happy families. Oh, snakes and ladders, I think we had a snakes and ladders game at one time. But we’d be gambling!

I were going to say, were there dice in the house.

R-Aye. Aye, we’d be gambling, we were gamblers. I tell you what, Fred my elder brother once offered me a shilling if he could throw, I think they were magpie eggs, at me standing against the wall across from John Street. So I said ‘Alright’.

A shilling?

R-A shilling, aye.

How old were you?

R-Well, he’d be maybe fourteen or fifteen and I’d be what, Ten. Aye.

It were a lot of money.

R-So it were. I stood up against the wall and he threw these eggs at me and missed with every one. But I didn’t get me shilling. Happy days!

Can you remember ever having a newspaper?

No, I don’t remember a newspaper.

Or a magazine?

R-Later on maybe, but I think she used to get the Daily Sketch, my mother, not every day, just occasionally. How much were they then, a penny? But we never had a paper delivered.

Did she ever get a woman’s paper of any sort, you know, like Woman’s Weekly or anything like that.

R-No, but she used to read. I don’t know what she read, it’d be love stories I suppose. She were only a young woman when me father died you know, thirty odd. And she never had another feller. And she were a good-looking woman. She used to get pestered occasionally but no, she thought that much about her kids, she were a good woman.

Aye, must have been.

R-She were.

Must have been Ernie. Did any of the family belong to the library?

R-No.

‘Cause I know you are a great reader aren’t you.

R-I’m a reader but I’ve never been a library man. If I have a book it belongs to me. I couldn’t be responsible for someone else’s book.

Yes, would you say you were a reader then?

R-Oh, I’ve been a reader all me life, right from penny comics, Wizard, Hotspur.

Who used to get them for you, did you get them yourself?

R-I used to get ‘em meself. I were always earning a copper you know, running about, running errands, I’d go anywhere.

How about books in the house? Can you remember any books in the house?

R-Only t’rent book!

That wouldn’t make reight good reading some days! Could everyone in the family read and write?

R-Oh aye, we were all fairly good scholars.

Who were t’best scholar?

R-I think I were t’best scholar.

Aye, I think you might have been. How about toys?

R-Well, after things bucked up you see we’d have toys.

Can you remember any?

R-Not really, but you’re on about musical as well, I remember getting a musical box given. It were a lovely thing, light coloured wood you know, and it used to play these tunes, I forget what the tunes were but it were like a brass cylinder with all them spikes on you know. That silly bugger Wilson decided to change the tunes so he kept knocking the odd spike out here and there, he ruined it. I were only on to him a few weeks since, that musical box today must be worth hundreds of pounds, it would have been, but it were ruined.

Who gave you that?

R-You remember Jim Barrett? You must have known Jim Barrett, bricklayer? He lived up at Springs Farm.

How old would you be then when he gave it to you?

R-Oh, fourteen happen.

When your mother had any spare time in the house what did she used to do with it? What did she do with her spare time at home?

R-Eh, I don’t know. I don’t think she ever had any spare time really. I can’t remember her sitting about, but we were never in much you know. If it were fine we were out.

Yes, but in winter you’d be….

R-Oh I don’t know, we’d still be out doing sommat. I mean it were Fifth of November, chubbing, [Chubbing is a dialect word for gathering wood.] Christmas, singing carols, earning money. There were me, Tommy Lambert and Tommy Harmer. Just us three, I used to have the candle in a jar and Tommy Harmer played the mouth organ and Tommy Lambert used to play on the piccolo. Well we always called him ‘Shuffy’ and he weren’t bad on the piccolo. We were playing one night, ‘While Shepherds watched their flocks’ or something and Tommy’s piccolo started gurgling, so we had to tell him to wipe his nose. We used to make a bob or two at Christmas and New Year’s morning we used to go to t’Model with t’brush and black face collecting off th’old tramp weavers. Aye, always a shilling or two to be made somehow. I used to come up here, weeding at sixpence an hour.

What, to good houses like…..

R-Aye, knock on’t door and say ‘Could I weed your garden?’ like. Regular customers. There were three teachers used to live in that corner house there, where that model is now, lodging house. Just across there. And they were , I used to come up here regular, every week.

Aye, What do you call that house, is it Springbank or something like that?

R-Sommat like that.

It was built the same time as the mill they reckon weren’t it, that house. Somebody once told me that.

R-Could have been.

I think one of the Nutters built that house.

R-Anyway, when I were weeding for them they’d call me in at lunch time, it must have been a Saturday happen when I were doing it. One of the women would have a little table set out with a tablecloth on and a nice little meal. I’d have a little bit of lunch and back out into the garden, pay me a tanner an hour.

How old would you be then?

R-About twelve happen.

Initiative Ernie!

R-Oh aye. Once I’d learned which way the road turned I can’t honestly say I’ve ever been hard up ‘cause if there were a shilling to be made I’ll be there. And you can always make a shilling, I mean there’s a lot of unemployed today and they’ve no need to be.

Yes. No you’re quite right. What time did you get up in a morning usually?

R-Are we still at John Street?

Yes, John Street.

R-Well, school time, it’d be early happen about half past seven, eight o’clock.

How about the milk?

R-Oh well, when t’milk job started I had to be up by half past six.

How old were you when you started on the milk?

R-Well, I were only a little lad when I were a lather boy, and it were after I were a lather boy I were a milk boy, oh, I’d happen be 11 or 12 happen. I were a milk lad for Taylforth and I must have been a good man at my job because then a bloke called Brewster, he kept a farm across from Calf Hall, shilling a week more so I went milk-ladding for him, four and six a week, busy days.

What time did you go to bed at night?

R-Well, we went to bed when we were tired, there were no telly you know. Maybe ten o’clock. But we used to go to the pictures a lot now, we’ve got to the picture days now. Pictures Monday, Tuesday, miss Wednesday, Thursday and Friday and see a different picture every night.

Why did you miss Wednesday?

R-Well, Programme were Monday Tuesday and Wednesday at t’Majestic, and Monday, Tuesday Wednesday at the Palace. So Monday Majestic, Tuesday Palace, Wednesday I don’t know what, Thursday Majestic and Friday at the Palace.

How about the Alhambra, did you ever go there?

R-No, I can just about remember the Alhambra, I can remember it being burned down. {The fire was in April 1923 so this would be in the ‘Hard-up’ days. Ernie would be seven years old when it burned.] No, I never went, I can’t remember going to the pictures there.

Aye, of course it stood on the piece of land next to the bowling green you were on about.

R-Yes it did, it stood where the welfare place is now. And then there were an open market there you know after it were burned down. That were interesting and then the fairs used to come on there. It’s been a useful piece of land has that and it were a good courting shop later.

Is that right? Aye, we’ll get on to that later Ernie. If you were in at night, it were gas-lit were that house?

R-Oh aye.

Would your mother ever say anything like we’re going, we’ll not bother lighting t’gas, we’ll go to bed or did you just used to sit by the fire light?

Oh no, we’d go to bed if there were no, sometimes we didn’t have any gas you know. It’s no good sitting having no coal, Oh we used to get a bit of coal though, they used to deliver coal to Calf Hall and t’road were in a poor state so when t’wagons were going down loaded they always used to spill a bit so we used to go down and collect that. And then we’d walk past the stack and hit it with a stick and what fell off went into t’bucket. So we used to, oh and Clough just across the road were on coal as well you know. We wouldn’t be without a fire for long.

Is that right?

R-Oh, necessity knows no law.

No, you’re quite right. How about coke from the gas works, did you ever go there?

R-Yes aye, we used to go to the gas works. You know the fiddle with the little truck? [We had a little wheeled truck we used to collect coke and] when you go in they used to weigh your truck but under the sack you’d have a couple of bricks. Go in to the yard, up to the stack, there used to be a feller there but not always, you used to weigh your own, half a hundredweight, a sackful. Well, you’d leave the bricks there, there must have been enough bricks to build a house ‘cause everyone was doing it. On your way out you got two bricks worth of cinders for nothing. I once went for a bucket of creosote, and coming out you used to report to th’office you know. Well, I weren’t very tall so I bobbed down and walked under the window so that were another bit of profit there.

What were the creosote for, somebody’s hens?

R-Some hen keeper. [For painting the hen cabins to protect them against water and rot.]

Can you ever remember being taken down to the gas works with whooping cough? It were fairly frequent were that weren’t it.

R-I’ve always had a good chest, good job. I’ll tell you what they used to tell, you know when they used to come round tarring the roads?

Aye.

R-Whether it’s true or not I don’t know, I hope it isn’t true, but there were a baby with whooping cough and her mother were holding her up by the boiling tar and the poor little bugger fell in. Whether it were true, it could be true.

Aye, easily because it were done. Newton were only saying the other day about being taken on to the top of the retorts when he had whooping cough and Vera was as well. [My wife. SCG.] I have an idea one of her relations worked at the gas works. Now what makes you say the gasworks was an interesting place?

R- Well I mean, the coal went in there and I remember one time, at school, we went on a conducted tour and it were interesting were that. We did an experiment with a clay pipe. A few little bits of coal in the bowl, seal it up wi’ some clay, put it on the fire and within a few minutes you got a light on’t end.

That’s it, that’s how they first discovered coal gas.

R-Now I suppose that’s a trick that’s been handed down.

That’s it, were clay pipes common then?

R-Oh everybody [smoked ‘em]. I had an aunt once that smoked a clay pipe and she used to enjoy it. I used to go errands for her to the Co-op for this tobacco. I mean nearly everyone was a member of the Co-op in those days. She sent me for this twist and I noticed he never used to weigh it this fellow. He used to put it round my neck and cut it off but he also used to cut a little bit off and there were always a long piece and a little bit in this bag. So I thought one time, I’ll pinch that little bit, she’ll never miss it, and try it. Right, get a clay pipe. So I pinched this little bit and when I got up to see me aunt Annie with this twist she took it out of the bag and she says Where’s the jockey? I says What jockey? Oh I says, it’s here. She says You little bugger, tha were going to pinch it! And they called that bit ‘the jockey’ and everyone who bought twist in them days had to have a jockey besides.

Did she ever chew it?

R-No, I don’t think she chewed it.

What sort of twist were it, can you remember?

R-Black twist.

Aye, there used to be some called ‘Lady’s Brown’, it were very thin.

R-Oh, I’ve seen that. And there’s some reight thin like bootlaces.

Yes, well that were very thin that Lady’s Brown but there were some very thin black stuff, that were chewing twist.

R-Oh but this were reight thick stuff, black as ink.

Aye, thick twist.

R-And the jockey!

And the jockey, well you live and learn. Of course, you were a bit of a beggar for experiments weren’t you?

R-Oh aye. It’s a sure cure for tooth ache you know, a bit of black twist. But as for the experiments, we’d have a do at owt.

Aye, that’s it, how about gunpowder?

R-Oh, don’t mention gunpowder, it’s a miracle I’m here! This were at John Street. Fred, me elder brother, had a muzzle loading shotgun. We must have had a dresser at this time and he used to keep the gunpowder locked in a cupboard but I found out if you pulled the drawer out you could get your hand down into this cupboard. I did this many a time, take out the powder horn, and we had a steel fender as things had bucked up. The horn used to have a little stopper on the end and I used to press on this and open it and run the gunpowder along . Then I’d get the poker and get it red hot and touch it to one end of the powder and it’d go psssssh! And if any of the kids were in I’d say Continued in our next! But one day I’m doing this trick and the bloody lot went up, big explosion, burnt all the skin off me face, fireplace hanging off be one leg. The old girl next door, she’d been bedfast about three years and she fell out of bed, There were hell on and didn’t I cop it! I went to the pictures same week and I were like the invisible man, all bandaged up.

Who bandaged you up?

R-Oh it were me mother, she didn’t dare go for the doctor, it were illegal were this gunpowder and he might have reported it to the police or something like that. But he were a good hunter were Fred. This muzzle loading shotgun, we wanted a Sunday dinner maybe and he had just enough gunpowder for one shot but no pellets. So he got an old bicycle wheel and took the ball bearings out of the hub and loaded it wi’ that and out he went. He came back with a hare and he only had one shot. Aye, he were a good provider.

Where did he get his gunpowder from, do you know?

R-No.

If your mother had sent for the doctor she would have had to pay wouldn’t she?

R-Possibly, oh, but he used to come every week did the doctors man, sixpence a week.

Oh, she used to pay?

R-Oh Yes.

So, she were on like what they used to call the panel, they had a panel didn’t they.

R-Well, it must have been, it were sixpence a week for ever, Dr Glen’s book.

That’s it, and if you were on Dr Glen’s book and you were poorly…….

R-Well, up to being 12 years old I were always poorly, so t’doctor were coming on and off you know. I told you once before about six death beds. When I were about 11 or 12 Doctor Glen told me mother I only had three months to live. So she said to me, she didn’t tell me I were going to die in three months, but there were a grocer’s shop, Bonny’s, we had a tick book there. She said to me ‘You can go and get anything you fancy.’ Eh, I thought, that’s a rare do. So, Woodbines, ham sandwiches, meat pies, eh, owt I fancied. It only lasted a week, once she got the bill that were stopped!

How old were you then, ah, 12 weren’t you. Were you smoking Woodbines then?

R-Yes, I were 12. You started off smoking tea leaves but then we worked up to Woodbines.

Did your mother know you were smoking Woodbines?

R-No, she might have done, she never objected to me smoking anyway because I were dying, I were, I were dead next week. I fancy she thought it’s no good getting on to him.

How about pets, did you have any pets?

R-Oh aye, we allus had sommat. We’ve had all sorts. Jackdaws, always a cat, always a dog, I once had a cuckoo, that died. Well, I think I choked it, I gave it some bacon rind and I don’t think it did it any good at all. I were sorry though, it were a nice bird.

How about dogs, did you use them for rabbiting?

R-Aye we allus did., we allus had a dog like, but old Jack, that were a dog that seemed to grow up wi’ us.

What sort were it?

R-Mongrel, Oh no, we never had owt wi’ a pedigree.

Did your mother smoke?

R-I think she had an odd fag but I don’t think she smoked really. I think she used to like a tot of whisky, not that, she didn’t go out boozing, I think we used to have an odd bottle in the house.

How much were a bottle of whisky then, can you remember?

R- Seven and six. Oh I remember what I used to go for, a noggin of rum occasionally, in’t pub. Take your own bottle and they put a noggin of rum into it, it wouldn’t be so much. May be when she weren’t feeling too well.

When you say a noggin, how much would that be, it’s more than a six-out isn’t it?

R-Happen a couple of six-outs.

[We’re into old measures here. The word ‘gill’ was often used when ordering half a pint of beer but a gill actually was a quarter of a pint. A ‘six-out’ measure was used for spirits, this was six measures out of a gill or quarter pint. This was the standard legal measure for selling spirits. A double was two six-outs and so from what Ernie says, a noggin was equal to a double. However, Zupko, who is my bible in these matters says that under the Imperial System, a noggin was a quarter of a pint.]

How about your brothers, did they smoke?

R-Fred never smoked in his life, never. Wilson smoked like a factory chimney, Like me.

Did anyone in the family gamble?

R-Oh we all gambled. Me mother used to back a mixed double, a tanner reversed and a tanner double. This was when things bucked up a bit you know. A bit of brass coming in, there were no bingo, there were just horse racing. No football coupons.

Street betting ‘ud be illegal then wouldn’t it, where did she put a bet on?

R-It were, it were, bobbies used to raid the bookies places but they always seemed to know when they were coming.

Where did you go to put your bets on?

R-Fred Ralph’s, bottom of Queen Street. But early days, he used to take bets in his house on John Street and one of my earliest recollections is taking a bet for me aunt Edith who used to come and clean for me mother, well for us, for half a crown a week when me mother were weaving. She came up one day and it were Grand National day and she says to me, Eh Ernie, there’s a horse running in the Grand National and I do fancy it. I says well, back it! She says well, I want sommat for George’s tea. That were her husband George. She says I think I’ll have sixpence each way on it. I says put a shilling each way on it. She says Eh, I don’t know. I went on, I says you might be lucky. So I took this shilling each way to Fred Ralph’s and it won at a hundred to one. I can remember, George, he got a new cap. Oh, they were living off the fat of the land. Hell fire!, she’d have a fiver for a win and happen a quarter or a third for a place, there’d be about seven quid back. What a day that’d be, they were millionaires for the day! Eh, George’s new cap!

That Fred Ralph, would he be any relation to the milkchap Ralph, May Ralph’s husband, what were his name?

R-It were his father, Arthur Ralph.

That’s it. Arthur were a big racing man as well weren’t he.

R-And Fred Ralph had a bullet right through the centre of his hand, out of the Great War and all his bone were shoved up here, [indicates hand] and his hand were like that. He weren’t a bad bloke.

Aye, can you remember having a radio?

R-No, t’first thing we ever had in that line were a crystal set.

[Crystal sets were the first form of radio. Called ‘wireless’ because there were no wires. They were very easily made, in fact when I was a lad we used to make our own.]

Well, that’s the same thing, wireless.

R-Well, similar, but used to pick static up and we used to say Listen, it’s Geraldo! [Geraldo was a famous bandleader in the interwar years.]

Where did you get that, can you remember.

R-No, I don’t know, I think it might have been, aye, it might be about, still on John Street, I’d be happen 13 year old or something like that. We used to have a cat’s whisker and a crystal and one or two other bits and pieces.

Where did you generally play, outside the house?

R-Oh, on Calf Hall Road or Rocky Road (Cavendish Street which was unmade) always round that area. Used to drive all the residents crazy.

Play around the dam a lot did you, up at Clough and…..

R-Well in summer aye, we used to go round the dam at Clough. There were always someone watching you know. You used to get young crows in there and try and bring them up and tame them. There were a plantation there.

Yes, there’s still a lot of trees up back there.

R-Ah, but they’ve chopped ‘em all down now but there’s a lot of little trees.

Aye between there and Ouzeldale. Who did you play with?

R-Oh a gang of lads, the Wapping Shincrackers they called us. A gang of buggers you might say but no damage like there is today, if there were any damage done it were accidental.

Aye, no vandalism but plenty of mischief.

R-Oh plenty of mischief, plenty, we used to go stealing eggs and we used to take a little child with us, about two years old, and shove him through t’bob hoil? [Bob hole, the small hole for the hens to get access to the cabin when the door was locked.]

R-Aye, through t’bob hoil, he’d collect the eggs and then we’d be away.

Where was that?

R-All round the countryside.

Aye, anywhere there were eggs.

R-Anywhere, anywhere, aye.

Was there anyone that your mother didn’t like you playing with?

R-Nobody, no. She never objected to anyone we played with. But there were one or two snooty Methodists living round about, they wouldn’t let us play with their lads. But it weren’t long before they used to come and join the Wapping Shincrackers. Aye, they’d risk a good hiding.

Did you ever get into any trouble when you were playing out for being where you shouldn’t have been or owt like that?

R-Well, not police trouble. We’d get into trouble t’same as when we raided Bradley’s orchard every year, in’t Autumn. It were like our annual affair.

Which Bradley were that?

R-Bradleys, manufacturers. We used to go on’t canal bank and over Bradley’s bridge into his orchard. I don’t think you’ll remember Bradley. [There is no bridge called Bradley’s Bridge but there is Banks Bridge and it seems that Bradley, who was a tenant in Bankfield then, may have been living in Bank House, sometimes called Bank Hall.]

Whereabouts were his house?

R-Well you know the old road?

Brogden Lane?

R-No, not Brogden Lane. You know as you’re going to Skipton, th’Old Road? He lived in one of them. [Greenberfield Lane] Well, his garden used to go down to the canal at the back and he had a good orchard. All sorts, plums, pears, apples, cherries, all the lot. The word ‘ud go round, Bradley’s apples are ripe! We’d be there, it were like an adventure, and then we’d all have belly ache!

Aye, because they wouldn’t be ripe would they.

R-They were nowt!

Apart from getting up to mischief, were there any particular games you might have played.

R-Ah, we’d play tin relieve, like kick a tin and run like hell and we used to play a game called ‘bed stocks’. First of alone bloke ‘ud get up against the wall with his hands on’t wall, bent down and we’d two teams, that were it, happen five on each side. Five would get up against the wall and all the rest used to jump on top of them and when they collapsed they were out.

Did you ever go for walks.

R-Oh walks? Thousands of miles wi’ walks. Oh it were all, in summer it were all walking, we’d set off at t’morning and not come back while late at night.

How far afield did you get?

R-Oh, Rimington, Gisburn. One o’t favourite places were where they have them stones, you know, crossing the river. You go to Marton and straight down the road on to….

New Brighton?

R-New Brighton?

You go down the road going in towards Gargrave, past where the river is.

R-No, [not] past Gargrave, you know where you turn up on to the Settle road happen? What do you call that?

Oh, you mean down to Ribble Bottom.

R-Aye, what do you call it?

Nappa.

R-Nappa, that’s it, that were t’favourite place, we used to go there. Island, we used to camp on t’island sometimes home made tent.

Did you ever get any salmon out?

R-No, I never had a salmon.

Plenty in theer, I’ve had ‘em out of there. It says here bicycle rides but you wouldn’t have a bike would you?

R-Yes, I did have a bicycle but a bit later, half a crown a week, Hopper it were. Aye, it were t’pride and joy.

How old were you then?

R-Oh I’d be sixteen or seventeen then. Well, I were working. I’d been sweeping at …. Well, I learned to weave here [Bancroft] and then to be in regular work in them days you’d to be a Methodist.

Is that right?

R-Yes, must be a Methodist or you’d get laid off. Same as maybe if I were working here, if you worked here you went to th’Independent Methodist.

Aye, at the bottom of Wapping.

R-Aye, if you worked at Brooks’s you went to t’Primitives.

Brooks, which do you call Brooks?

R-Well, they’re out of business now, they were one of the first to go out but they were at Westfield.

That’s it, Brooks, yes I know the name of the firm. When you were out walking, we’ll get on to t’work job later on. When you were out walking did you collect anything? You know, berries, fruit, firewood, you know, owt. I don’t mean sapping! [Sapping is slang for stealing apples from orchards.]

R-Nothing really.

Bilberries?

R-Oh yes, we picked bilberries and blackberries in season.

That’s it aye, firewood?

R-Well, not so much firewood, only for t’Fifth of November time.

And that’d be mostly in’t town wouldn’t it?

R-Round and about.

Old weft box lids?

R-Oh no, mostly trees. You daren’t go near the bloody weft boxes or the skips, there were always someone after your blood if you did. We used to cut canes out you know and make bows.

Is that right. Out of the skips?

R-If you were catched wi’ a penknife you’d be sent to Siberia!

If any of the lads did get into trouble, I mean, there’d be the odd ones every now and again, what happened to them? Say the police got someone, what happened to them?

R-Do you know, I can’t honestly remember any of me mates that I grew up with getting into trouble with the police. Honest to God. There were enquiries about windows being broken and things like that, but stealing, they were buggers you know but maybe they were very lucky and never get catched. Raymond Riding, I mentioned him before, he went to pay me mother’s shop bill at Bonny’s with a pound note. Bonny gave him change, maybe the bill were about seventeen and six, he gave him change for the pound and all. So Raymond takes this change to me mother and rounds us up, he had a pound note. He said he’d, we used to go digging where they emptied the [silt from the ] grates to find a tanner or a bob many a time.

Aye, where the gully emptier had gone.

R-That’s right aye. Somebody said what have you got. A pound note he said, he said he’d been digging. Ah, I thought, it’s a bit fishy is that, I thought it’d be tattered and torn or wet or sommat you know. Anyway we’d all go to Earby to the pictures, six of us and we called at Atkinson’s for a cap apiece out of this pound. Goes down on the train to Earby, went to the Empire pictures, a bag of nuts apiece and toffees or whatever were going. Back on’t train to Barlick and when we got to Barlick Raymond’s mother were waiting on the station. Oh Christ he says, Me mother’s waiting, she must have found out about this pound. It were Bonny’s pound and she were waiting for him. She didn’t half hammer him, gave him a good hiding and he had to pay the pound back out of what he earned, happen a copper a week. But we had a good afternoon.

[You got] a new cap out o’t job.

R-A new cap apiece.

Did anybody in the family ever go fishing?

R-And not with a rod and line, they either tickled them or limed ‘em. We had no time for sitting there all day long, no.

Now then, you’re talking about liming ‘em. Tell me about that.

R-Well, a stream wi’ trout in it, you put some lime in an old sock and take it upstream and anchor it under a stone. As water were running through t’lime it were going down the bed. Well, t’trout used to, they mustn’t have liked it, they used to bobble to t’top and they got, just picked ‘em out.

That’s it, and blowing ‘em up.

R-Well, blowing ‘em up, you know about carbide? You will do. Get some carbide, put it in a bottle with a screw top and a drop of water. Screw it down and chuck it wherever the fish are, and make sure the bottle’s sunk. Happen tie a stone to the neck. After a time the gas will work its way up and blow up and t’fish ‘ud be at t’top.

So it weren’t fishing for sport, it were a question of going fishing for sommat to eat.

R-Oh aye, and Savage has allus been a bloke to buy something like that. Always, in fact there’s fishermen today taking trout. I know a young woman who picked a salmon up, you were talking about picking salmon up, she picked it up out of the water and sold it to Savage.

When were that, were it a long time ago.

R-Well it must have been a long time ago, she were only a girl at the time and she’s my age. Well, she’d sell it to old Savage.

How much would she get for the salmon, any idea?

R-She might get ten bob.

In them days?

R-Eh, it’s always been an expensive fish, salmon.

Yes, it has. Now it says here ‘What happened to the fish’. Well, what happened to the fish?

R-Oh, they went in’t pot.

Did your mother ever go out. Do you know, did she ever go out at night?

R-Do you know, looking back, I don’t think she ever did.

Never went out.

R-Never.

When you think you know, the life your mother must have had……..

R-Aye, well she weren’t [alone], there were a lot of people like her, they were content with their lot I suppose.

Yes, why were they content Ernie. Because nowadays, I mean, people wouldn’t stand it would they.

R-Oh well, we’ve been educated since then haven’t we? I mean it says in the Bible about kicking against the pricks? They must have realised it were no good, moaning and groaning, and there was a lot of drunkenness in those days.

Now, there used to be a saying, that the quickest way out of Salford was four pints of ale. Do you think that that is why there was so much drunkenness?

R-I fancy so, people drowning their sorrows.

You’d say there was a lot more drunkenness than now?

R-A lot more, a lot more.

Spirits or ale?

R-Oh beer, it’d be beer mostly because it were cheap you know. Well, it were cheap by comparison.

Would you say beer were better then? Strong?

R-Aye it must have been better, but, it’s been better in my time. I mean I like a pint of beer and I remember beer at fourpence a pint, Brown Ale. I think it must have been better. But there wouldn’t be much whisky, they didn’t drink much whisky. Then they used to save up you know. The word ‘ud be passed round, Joe Bloggs is on’t rant, he’s in the Stars. [Seven Stars public house on Church Street.] He might have saved up for twelve months and then he’d go and spend all his money and then go back to work and be teetotal.

Just for one good night out.

R-Well, not just one night, it used to last happen a week, as long as his money lasted, aye.

Yes, as long as the money lasted. When you say that, they deliberately saved up so they could go….

R-With that one aim in view, save up for twelve months and then go on t’rant.

That’d be fairly common?

R-It were.

What, more wi’ men or women?

R-Oh, men.

How about the woman when he were on t’rant?

R-Well, they didn’t bother much about the women did they. I think they were a bad lot really, my father’s generation. Women were chattels in a way, this women’s lib today, I’m in total agreement you know.

Yes. Would you say, I know it was hard for men but would you say it was harder for women in your childhood in the twenties?

R-I think so yes, because most of the women went to work and then they had their housework to do.

Were there any men who would do a lot round the house with their wives?

R-Oh I don’t think they did owt! They were too busy out boozing and pigeon flying and bowls and owt that were going I suppose. They didn’t, I don’t think they were concerned about their wives and children.

After the first world war, if you look at the figures, there were a lot more men than women, with it being so many men of marriageable age killed during the war and badly injured like your father. Was it striking at all? The number of single women that there were about, did you notice it?

R-Oh no, I never noticed it. Oh, in my area, the Wapping area, there’d be as many what they call ‘living tally’ as married. But we were children, didn’t know then like what they were. But they always used to say that they used to run away from Blackburn. Same as Mrs Jones and Mr Smith ‘ud run away to Barnoldswick and call themselves, maybe Roberts, I don’t know. But there were, they used to say a prestige sign was a lavatory brush hung up on the wall.

Aye, outside the toilet.

R-Aye, they did tell a tale of a tackler coming from Blackburn and he got a house somewhere, it’d be in the Wapping area because that’s always been the poverty area, or it were in them days. Anyway he run away from Blackburn with this woman and they got a house and he went working Monday morning and when he went home Monday dinner time, his wife or his tally woman says Eh Joe, we’ll have to get a lavatory brush. He says What’s a lavatory brush? She says A lavatory brush for cleaning t’lavatory. Oh well he says, get one. So she got a lavatory brush, she were keeping up wi’t Jones’s, there weren’t much in them days. Now after a day or two she says How do you like the lavatory brush Joe? Oh he says, I think I’d rather have paper. [laughter] But there were none o’ that keeping up with the Joneses, I mean we were all in’t same boat. I don’t think envy, I think it would have to be invented, that word envy, I never heard anyone say Eh, look at that, I wish I had one. There were nowt like that.

Would you say that there was any sort of hierarchy amongst the people that were down? I mean, did some of the neighbours look on themselves as better than the others for some reason? Say a woman that were married and had lived wi’ the same chap for twenty five years, would she look on herself as being better than a tally woman?

R-No, I’d hardly think so. Everyone had breeches arse out, if your breeches arse were in you were an outcast. It were as simple as that. Aye, I don’t know, they were happy days in a way, they were all slaves being exploited by the same people as were exploiting t’niggers. But they didn’t realise it, they must not have done. And I mean, they were happy, they must have been happy in a way.

Yes, it’s a very similar thing you know, they always say that one of the worst slums in Salford, a real slum you know, and it returned a Conservative candidate solid for decades and decades.

R-There were a Tory here for decades.

Aye, that’s it, wi’ being in with the Skipton Division.

R-Aye, farmers and the Skipton vote. I mean, I’ve backed a loser all me life, I’ve never backed a winner not when I voted. There’s never been a socialist in this area.

No, that’s right, there’s never been a Labour man in this area.

R-No. Every time I puts me cross down it’s wasted but it still goes down.

Yes, there you are. Did any of the family go to church regular?

R-The only time we went to church were at Whitsuntide, and it were coffee and bun day. And we used to enter t’races and win t’races if they’d let us. Not me personally, but there were one or two good runners amongst us lot. But this Whitsuntide, I remember, there’d be a dozen of us all went to’t Calf Hall Methodist do and we sat there. We had to go to’t service like before the nosh up. All sat there wi’ clean faces and Mr Kay, a local preacher said, All those boys who haven’t been to this chapel in the last month, leave. So we had to leave and I think that put me off religion for the rest of me life. I mean, how could he deny twelve poor lads and lasses coffee and a bun and a bit of fun? He went down in my little book did that chap that day, he did that. And he were a weaver. Aye.

So you didn’t go to Sunday School?

R-No.

What sort of people would you say went to chapel?

R-Well, I think a lot of ‘em went under duress, they’d either go to chapel or be out of work and that’s a true statement.

Oh aye, I can believe it. I mean there’s a famous case at Harle Syke, if you didn’t go to chapel you couldn’t work at Queen Street.

R-Aye, t’same applied in Barnoldswick.

Yes, if you didn’t go to the chapel up the road you couldn’t go there. That’s why all the weavers from there are buried at this chapel.

R-Oh aye.

Would you think that the people that did go to chapel, did they mix well together or did some of them think they were a cut above the rest?

R-No, I think there were a lot of back-biting, they’re a funny lot, Methodists, a queer lot. In my experience, selfish people. So long as I am all right Jack, that’s the way it worked. I suppose there is good ones amongst ‘em but I’ve never met any of them. I met some mean buggers in my time and they’ve all been Methodists, nip a bloody currant in four they would. There were a typical example in there [Bancroft], Clarke, meanest bloke I’ve ever known in my life and very religious. [Stephen Clarke, one of the tacklers at Bancroft.] No, religion has been a very small part of my life, very small.

Apart from the Sally Army.

R-Well aye, Sally Army, but I don’t reckon t’Sally Army as a religion.

Yes I know what you mean. The only reason I said that was because, of course you said pawnbroking was a religion to you, it’s a different way of using the word. In your own mind, is there any difference between people that went to church and people who went to chapel?

R-No difference. Only people who went to church ‘ud be better off than people that went to chapel, materially.


SCG/07 June 2001
9689 words.



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/3

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE JULY 20 1978 AT BANCROFT ENGINE HOUSE, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER, AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.




Now, we’ll start today Ernie by tidying up one or two loose ends. First of all, remember that game we were trying to remember the name of? With the spring, the ball and the pins? You said you had this when I asked you about it?

R-Oh that’s right, bagatelle, that’s it.

Bagatelle, that’s it. Now, you were living at John Street and then you moved to number 9 Westgate. Can you remember what year you moved into No. 9?

R-Right, I’d be about 16 and I’d be four or five when we went into John Street and I were born in 1916.

So that’d be about 1932 wouldn’t it. Aye, sixteen and sixteen, 1932. Were it a better house than John Street?

R-Oh yes, a lot better.

In what way Ernie?

R-Well, a through house it was, we had a back door and a front door, two bedrooms and a toilet in’t back yard but it weren’t so far away. Not like John Street, John Street toilet were half a mile away.

Were that a tippler or a dry toilet?

R-No, it were a tub, tank. Oh no, were there tipplers in them? There would be wouldn’t there. That’d be a modern toilet then, a tippler. Aye I think it might have been a tippler come to think of it, at Westgate. Oh aye, it were a lot better house.

Bigger house?

R-Bigger house, aye.

More bedrooms?

R-Better outlook all round. I mean, John Street, all you could see out, well, we only had one window downstairs and two little ones upstairs. And t’downstairs window all you could see out were a wall, just across, about six foot away.

Aye, because there were another building there weren’t there, before they took them down?

R-Shop, there were a shop there, Matthew’s shop.

That’s it, the one that Capsticks bought.

R-Oh no. No, Capsticks were further down on the end of Calf hall Road.

Right on’t corner.

R-Aye well, there were another, there’s some garages built there now.

Ah, were there another shop there?

R-Aye, a grocer’s shop.

Aye, that were the corner shop.

R-And that Capstick’s shop, that were a grocer’s shop as well. There were three grocer’s shops within, say a hundred yards square there in them days.

Who kept the one on the corner nearest to your house?

R-Well, when I were very young somebody called Lund or Woolfenden, Woolfenden and later on Matthews, they must have bought it.

When you moved up to Westgate you’d be sixteen you say. So you’d be working, and Fred were working, so things wouldn’t be so bad up theer.

R-Oh no, things had bucked up no end.

Them’d be the good days.

R-We were like well off in a way you know. We weren’t earning, well, I don’t suppose they were too bad. I remember when I were 16 I were weaving at Calf Hall Mill, Blackburn Holden’s. I weren’t making much money there and then for some reason they wove out and I went sweeping at Cairns and Lang at Fernbank shed. I had 27/- a week and then we went in for a rise. There were only seven or eight sweepers there. After t’negotiations and long talks and meetings we get a shilling a week. But for that shilling, it were like an incentive bonus, we had to load the sweeps and load cloth and any other job that turned up.

When you were living at John Street, as far back as you can remember, how were Colne Road paved.

R-It’s always been tarmac in my memory.

When you were at school, what was the general attitude towards work when you were at school. Were you looking forward to leaving school?

R-Oh aye, oh aye. Everybody looked forward to leaving school and starting work and earning a bob or two.

But you knew when you left that there’d be nothing for you only t’mill.

R-Only t’mill for such as me. I weren’t a bad scholar at school, I finished, you know, well up. And just as I left a job come to let at t’Town Hall and my headmaster gave me a reight good reference, I kept it for years, I were proud of it. He told me to apply for this job, some kind of office boy I think, you know, with a chance of working me way up. I had an interview but that were all. You see it were who you knew, I mean who were I, I were just a nothing. So I never heard owt else about that job so I worked, like weaving.

How old were you then?

R-As soon as possible, fourteen.

You left school at fourteen.[1880 Education Act {EA} set school-leaving age{SLA] at 10 years. 1893 EA raised SLA to 11 tears. 1899 EA raised SLA to 12 years. 1902 Act raised SLA to 13 years. 1918 EA raised SLA to 14 years and abolished half timing. 1944 EA raised SLA to 15 years.]

R-Oh aye.

Did everybody get a job then?

R-Oh I reckon so, anybody wi’ anything about them.

That were 1930, I mean, things weren’t so good really were they?

R-Well, I learned to weave up here at Bancroft, there were 1100 loom in here then in them days.

So the first job you had when you left school were here weaving at Bancroft?

R-Aye.

How did you get set on, as a learner weaver, a tenter or what?

R-Oh I’d be a learner weaver, no pay, me Aunt Louis learned me to weave. No pay. And you tried hard and eventually you got work, first of all two learner weavers ‘ud go on four loom, two loom apiece you see. Somebody wanted the afternoon off so that were champion, we used to pray for somebody to fall and break their bloody neck! No, not really but you used to be hoping somebody’d stop off and then you could get a bit of work.

When you were learner-weaving like that then, you didn’t get paid?

R-Not a meg, no, nothing, no talk of pay at all.

So the only time you’d get paid would be if someone were off and you went on their looms?

R-That’s reight and it were a pick rate. [They couldn’t be paid on normal piece rate because they weren’t on long enough so they were paid so much a hundred picks and this would be deducted from the weaver’s normal piece rate.] I remember Saturday mornings were a good possibility and it were half a crown for four looms. So this lass and me that used to work together, we’d have one and threepence apiece.

Aye, those were the days. Something else you mentioned, while you were at school, about teeth, you said that there were a lot of bad teeth about in them days. Were your teeth bad?

Oh aye, Oh they were. I had false teeth when I were twenty, oh I’m telling lies, top teeth at twenty, but they were never very good, and there were a lot of rotten teeth. I look at these young uns today and I think Eh, how marvellous, very rare you see a bad tooth. And nearly everyone had a mouthful of teeth that looked like burnt chips as I were growing up. I’ll tell you what, talking about teeth, I remember me mother taking me to a dentist called Hopkinson down Wellhouse Road to have a tooth pulled on tick. I remember it, I were mad wi’ tooth ache. He wouldn’t pull it, no money you see and she’d have paid would the old girl but I had to suffer ‘til pay day. And they talk about mans inhumanity to man. Eh, to see a little lad suffering wi’ toothache…..

It’s all right Ernie, that’s one of the reasons these tapes are being made, people don’t think about things like that nowadays. I shouldn’t be saying things like that while the tape’s on but people don’t think about things like that nowadays, everything’s laid on you know.

R-Oh it is, aye.

I’ll tell you something, just while we’re on about that. I were talking to someone the other night, and they were talking about having a carpet. The lady, she’s 83 years old and quite naturally she said that every Sunday night, last thing before they went to bed, they swept the carpet, rolled it up and put it away until the next weekend.

R-Oh aye, they would.

Only put it down at weekend. How many people in these houses don here take their carpets up every Sunday night?

R-Nobody’d do it now, there’s no need you see. Times have changed so much.

Well, that’s it and still people aren’t satisfied.

R-Well, I don’t know, I’m satisfied well, aye, there’s a lot of people that aren’t satisfied.

Oh yes, but I mean, you’ve seen the bad side, I mean you’ve got your clean shirt and a good jacket now you’re all right.

R-Oh aye.

That’s it. When you were young, before you started work, did you ever go on any outings or anything?

R-Ah well. School days you mean. We once had a trip to Morecambe, like a school trip. I’d be ten or eleven before I saw the sea. And we managed a week at Blackpool that time, and we all went. Me mother had saved up and shopped, in those days you used to take your own food. Pay for a bed, so much a night for a bed. And she’d this tin box, it were full of grub, there were all sorts in it, tins of fruit, tins of salmon and bacon and cheese and all sorts. Enough for five of us for a week.

Where did you do the cooking?

R-Well, t’landlady used to do the cooking I think. Lodgers used to buy meat and the landlady ‘ud cook it, extra charge of course. We had a very good week, I think I fell in love for the first time and I were about nine or ten.

Is that reight! It weren’t under t’pier were it?

R-No I don’t think so, no, it wouldn’t be under the pier. But I remember there were a young girl in these lodgings where we were at. I must have fancied her because I got thick with her anyway. I don’t remember her name but I remember what she looked like, nice little brunette she were, I wonder what she looks like now.

Were the temperance movement strong in Barlick in them days, did you know anything about it?

R-There were always the Sally Army you know, they are always preaching temperance. And the Oddfellows and one called the Olive Leaf Guild. I remember that at one time you paid about three halfpence a week and you went through these stages, I’ve never been. I don’t believe in temperance, I mean, they had wine at the last supper didn’t they? As soon as I realised that I started fancying a drop, I like a drop or two now and again.

Did anybody ever try to get you to sign the pledge?

R-Oh I signed many a pledge, to get in out of the rain happen. I was signing pledges for years.

Tell me about that.

R-Well, you’d like go to these meetings and listen to the speakers and they’d preach against drink, well, they preached against everything I think! And me and three or four mates you know, we might get a cup of tea and a bun while we were there, and we’d sign the pledge but it didn’t mean owt, we weren’t serious. They might have been serious but we weren’t. I might have crossed me fingers while I were signing.

Oh, did that make it all right?

R-It would do, aye.

Did anybody ever tell you about the evils of drink? You know, at school or anything like that?

R-Well two or three places we used to go to they’d talk about the evils of drink without a doubt. I mean you realised that when you saw ‘em rolling about in the streets. There were a lot of drunken buggers about when I were a lad, more drunks than there is now, unless they’ve learned to carry it better. Or drink might have been stronger in them days, it were certainly a lot cheaper.

Who were the brewers in Barlick then?

R-Massey’s, I remember it at fourpence a pint. That old feller you were talking about, I bet he’d remember it at twopence, aye.

Twopence a pint.

R-Nut Brown Ale, fourpence a pint, it were very good.

He was saying exactly the same thing you have said about people saving up to go on the rant.

R-Oh aye.

Exactly the same thing.

R-Aye it were a regular do were that you know, I’ve never done it but they did.

Aye, the quickest way out of Salford. Can you remember seeing women go into pubs?

R-No I can’t. I can remember drunk women but I don’t remember them going into pubs, not like they do now. In fact I used to go for me mother, for a jug, a jug of beer, to the Seven Stars, side door a pint of beer in a jug. And if any of the kids weren’t so well she used to put a red hot poker in it and give us a sup. It might have done us good.

Aye, to get you a sweat on. Aye it does. How did people look on women going in pubs then? Before you started work?

R-Well, I mean, you’re talking about levels of society. To me, a woman going in a pub wouldn’t have meant a thing, it wouldn’t have bothered me, not personally. But they must have gone in pubs when I look at it. There was one old woman, an old girl who lived down Wapping, Sarah Ann Rocky and I remember her being wheeled home in a barrow many a time. She had a fire at one time and when the fire brigade come, she only lived in a cellar that were like just one room with a front door, no other door and one window. When t’fire brigade arrived she says Oh, save me bread! She kept her bread in one of them brown dolly tub shape things.



The hovel in Wapping where Sarah Ann Rocky lived. One room. Almost certainly a squatter hut. This was in 2000 and since then it has been refurbished as the smallest house in Barlick.

Aye, a crock, a bread mug.

R-Aye, and when they get this big crock out they found it were full of shit! Well, old Sarah Ann died and two years later there were another old girl came to live there. Well what, I mean she’d come to live there as soon as old Sarah died, I forget her name. But she lived on her own and her son had gone to Canada and she couldn’t read or write and she used to come and ask me to write a letter to her son, he were called Edwin. Occasionally she’d get a letter from him and she’d fetch it down and I’d read it to her and write a reply she used to say, telling him this and that. But he never sent her any brass, but still, in them days they were poor in Canada. All that old girl had were ten shillings a week, that were the lot. And she had to buy a sack of coal and pay t’rent and buy a bit of grub. She smoked a pipe, marvellous isn’t it, when you think about it, ten bob a week!

That ‘ud be about?

R-Well I’d be thirteen or fourteen then.

Well, that’d be about 1930 then.

R-Aye.

Ten bob in 1930 wasn’t much Ernie.

R-No it weren’t, I’ve said that many a time.

Who would she get that ten bob from?

R-It’d be some kind of a pension I suppose, old age pension.

Aye, that’s it. To your knowledge, we’re still talking about when you went to school. Did you know of any families that were like spoilt with drink, you know, ruined with drink.

R-No.

No?

R-No, I didn’t know any lazy buggers really. They all worked, they went to work during the week and got drunk all weekend. They didn’t earn a lot of money but all the people I knew worked doing something and they used to get drunk at weekend.

Of course, now [in 1930], if they weren’t working there were t’dole weren’t there?

[Unemployment insurance was introduced in 1911.]

R-Yes, I remember being on t’dole, but I’ve never been on t’dole so long, always found some kind of a job. I remember a lot of ‘em being on t’dole at one time, that were in the 30’s.

Aye well, we’ll get on to that when we come to your working days. Can you remember any street performers or anything like that? Or people selling stuff in the street?

R-Oh aye, it used to be a regular do that. There used to be a bloke coming round, oh lots of street singers, good uns but there were one bloke seemed to be coming round all’t years I were growing up, and he used to sing a song, just one song, ‘Where Is My Wandering Boy Tonight’. And t’lads used to shout, ‘He’s gone to the petty to have a shite!’. And then there were one what used to come round selling props. He didn’t shout ‘props’, he used to shout ‘any pyops, any pyops’. Well there’d be an audience following him round, aye.

That’d be clothes props. [A clothes prop was the piece of timber with a forked end used to support the washing line when it was heavy loaded.]

R-Aye, clothes props, aye. ‘Any pyops!’ And this bloke that used to come round singing ‘wandering boy’, they reckon he left a row of houses at Colne when he died. But there were some, there used to be a bloke came round with a piano accordion, a lovely tenor voice, Aye, he were right good him, I remember him. There were a bloke called Flagger, he used to go round shouting knives and scissors to grind, but he had no grindstone, he used to go round t’corner and sharpen ‘em on the flags.

I can remember knife grinders coming round but they always had like a tricycle.

R-Aye, that’s it, like a cart wheel that they used to wheel that were on a stand and then they’d put it down and like pedal it.

That’s it. What did you think of Barlick, as a place to live in?

R-Well, I didn’t know any other place, I loved it, I still do. I mean, where you’re born, that’s like part of your life. I’ve never had an inclination to leave. I went down the Kent, the Garden of England, and I were glad to get back to Barlick.

Aye, not a bad little place at all. Can you ever remember going to a wedding when you were young?

R-No, I never went to a wedding when I was young.

A funeral.

R-I remember going to me father’s funeral, I’d only be about five, I remember that.

Aye, where is he buried?

R-Gill, in the old churchyard.

When he died was he laid out at home?

R-Well no, he wasn’t. He were laid out at his mother’s. My Grandmother were Nurse Roberts in Barnoldswick and they lived in the schoolhouse, where the library is now. But they were like what you’d call well off. I think my mother was regarded as socially inferior to Nurse Roberts’ family you know. They seemed to think me father had married beneath him. But it seemed to me that there were always some kind of friction and atmosphere between my mother and the Roberts family, most of ‘em. He died at the schoolhouse and we were living at John Street at the time.

When he went to be buried was it a motor hearse or a horse?

R-It’d be a horse for certain. They were all horses in them days.

Can you remember anything about the service?

R-No, I just remember going in the churchyard and it were raining and muddy and me mother were in a sorrowful state you know. I fancy that’s why it were implanted in me mind, for being such a young lad.

Yes, and at that time your mother ‘ud be having a bad time. How did she go on about mourning clothes?

R-Oh they always got into mourning [dress], they’d go into debt for that. Oh aye, when anyone died it were essential that they have a bit of mourning, I mean it doesn’t matter now.

How about the children, how about you?

R-Well, I don’t remember what I wore, but I fancy me mother’d definitely be in black, and what mourners who were there would be in black.

Where did you enjoy going most when you were a child. You know, if someone come to you in the morning and said Right, you can go anywhere you want today, you can do what you want. Where would you have gone?

R-Difficult question that. I mean, entertainment in them days were the pictures and then as you were growing up it were t’billiard saloon and t’pictures.

Where were the billiard saloon in Barlick?

R-Well, it’s not where the ballroom is now, it were part of that building. There’s another part that had billiard tables in and snooker tables. A big room, there’d be twelve full size tables and a couple of little ‘uns, what we called ‘slopstones’. And then later wireless came out you know, in my lifetime everything’s happened!

Yes, that’s it.

R-I remember tickling a crystal set and getting a bit of music out of it.

That’s why we’re making these tapes Ernie, because all these things have happened in your lifetime.

R-In my lifetime. Apart from the combustion engine, just about everything else. Wireless, television, penicillin, mini skirts, the lot!

How about politics, can you ever remember your mother saying anything about politics?

R-No, I don’t think they took politics seriously in them days. I’ve told you before about running round wi’ me breeches arse out and singing ‘Vote, vote, vote for Dicky Roundell.’

Yes, and yet Barlick was one of the first places in the country to have a Communist Party. When they made the Communist Party official in 1921 Barlick was one of the first places in the country. [to have one]

R-Oh? I didn’t know that but I knew the leading Communist in Barlick.

Who were that?

R-Well, we called him the Firewood King, Jimmy Rushton, he used to live in Lane Bottom. I remember a strike, about 1932, and we used to have some good meetings up Jepp Hill. He told us, Tomorrow, we’ll march on Dotcliffe Mill at Kelbrook and knock the belts off! ‘Cause they were blacklegging see. Well, it were a big job for us. He says, You can all take a bottle of water to drink, and like winked at us. That meant we could use these bottles of water to crack someone you know? So we marched, we did, off we went. Oh, there’d be two or three hundred fellows, different ages, lasses and all and when we got to Kelbrook there were some big black marias pulled up and all these big bobbies, about seven foot tall come at us with these sticks and then we set off at the gallop. When we got down Earby, me and my mate were running past Earby police station and there were two or three bobbies stood there waiting for us. And this lad I were with had been hit on the hand wi’ a truncheon and his fingers were going in and out like pistons he were in such pain. So one of the bobbies said Come on in’t police station lad, we’ll look after it for you. I thought I smelt a rat right away and I shot off like a bloody rabbit. I didn’t stop until I got to Barlick. Anyway, this mate, they called him Jack, they got him in the police station and they treated him kindly, wrapped his hand up and summonsed him and it cost him seven quid. I’ll bet it took him years to pay that seven pound off. He were fined seven pound.

What were the summons for, what were the charge, do you know?

R-Well I suppose it’d be creating a riot.

That were in 1932?

R-Aye, that were in 1932. We went back for less money than we’d come out with.

What was the actual cause of the strike?

R-Oh, it’d be money I suppose.

[Actually it was the strike over the introduction of the More Looms System after the Midland Agreement. The strikes started on 27th August and ended on 27th September, 1932.]

Were they still arguing about Local Disadvantage then, or had they done away with it?

R-I don’t know, I just don’t know. I just listen and learn and fall in with them.

Of course, you’d only be sixteen then.

R-Ah, but I used to listen to Rushton and his cronies and they used to interest me, the way they used to talk. And I could see the sense in it, I mean, it’s a good idea is Communism if it’d only work. Trouble is it doesn’t work.

Can you remember anything about elections when you were young? Yes well, you’ve already said about ‘Vote, vote, vote for Dicky Roundell’, but……

R-No. I’ve never really been interested in politics, not really. I’m a socialist at heart and I’ve always voted socialist and always voted in this town and never backed a winner. Always been bloody Tories here, all my lifetime.

Aye, can you remember your mother voting?

R-No, but she’d vote Tory for certain.

That’s it, but why? Do you know why?

R-Well, because th’bosses ‘ud be Tories, that’s why. It were like having an injection when they were young. The boss ‘ud be Tory and you daren’t vote any other way, they’d have had your bloody guts for garters! I mean, they grew up with it. My mother’s side, they were Altons they called ‘em, all good workers but rough diamonds, they must have been and I never heard ‘em talk any other way but Tory. They didn’t know any different, bloody ignorant they were.

Do you think that probably had a lot to do with it? You know, the way they’d been educated from children. The way they’d been brain-washed if you will, all along.

R-Oh aye, that’s a good word for it, brain-washed. They were, they were definitely brain washed, definitely they were. They were as poor as church mice and yet they’d vote Tory.

Did you ever hear anybody talking along the same lines? You know, it’s very easy to see that in, going back before you were born actually, but you know, between 1900 and 1915, anyone who had a bit of capital in Barlick and who had got a few looms in could make money, there were money there to be made. And yet these people that were working for ‘em were in dire poverty even when they were working. Can you ever remember anyone talking about this fact, that they were poor but the bosses were rich. They had to see that the bosses were making money.

R-No, I can’t honestly say I’ve ever heard anyone say owt about….. They were nice men, I’ve heard me mother say. There were a manufacturer called Billycock, whoever he were, and he were a bloody gentleman, he were a gentleman for employing them as bloody slaves and they couldn’t see it.

Aye, that were old William Bracewell.

R-Aye, that’d be his name, Billycock. How many chapels did he build?

Oh, he helped with one or two.

R-He would, they all did, it were like a passport to heaven. Rob the bloody workers and build a chapel.

So you’d never here your mother say anything about Suffragettes? You know, votes for women?

R-Oh no.

Which school did you go to Ernie?

R-Church School.

How old were you when you went?

R-Well, I’d be four or five.

How old were your parents when they went to school? Have you any idea? Have you heard them say? Either your mother or your father.

R-They’d be three or four or five. They used to get ‘em into school as quickly as possible, three if they could get them in. I mean, there were a lot of women used to mind children until they got to school age and then they used to get them into school and save a bob or two that way.

How much were child-minding, any idea?

R-Well, it wouldn’t be so much. I remember me aunt Annie used to mind children. It could have been a shilling a day happen.

What do you think you gained from school?

R-Well, I gained a certain amount of knowledge, I must have done, the three R’s and the experience of mixing with other children and growing up and going through school. It must have done me some good. I mean, you can’t do without school.

How about discipline in school?

R-Oh, there were plenty of discipline. I mean, they believed in ‘Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child’, you’d get bloody wacked if you winked the wrong eye! Oh aye, plenty o’ that. I remember getting caned one morning and fainting. Mr Turner from Earby. I think he were sorry after because when I came round I was in the girl’s cloakroom and he had a drink of tea for me. He says What have you had for your breakfast? I said, You caned me on a cold hand, that’s why I fainted. Wait while I get home, I’ll tell me mother. I don’t remember going home and telling me mother but I did faint and I remember, a bloke called John Collinson. We’d happen be eleven or twelve then, there were some stone steps running up into the school, t’bell rang and we were all running in and there were a girl running into the school near this John Collinson and she had a bit in front of her. [A belly on her] And he said, you want to get your mother to get you some corsets and she started crying and th’headmaster took this John Collinson down into t’cloakroom and you should have seen his back, he didn’t half bray him. But it didn’t need all that, I felt sorry for John but there were no mention of corsets after that. Oh aye, there were plenty of discipline.

Were there anyone from t’Church School went to grammar school can you remember?

R-I doubt it. I mean, all of is that went to Church School, we seemed to be a bit low in’t social scale. Gisburn Road School, I think that’s where the grammar school boys went. There might have been an odd un but I mean, anyone that qualified to go to Skipton Grammar School, it were like expensive for the parents. So even if I had had the brains to go on for further education me mother couldn’t afford it. I mean I’ve never heard of grants in them days , there were scholarships but they only went so far.

Can you remember taking an examination for Skipton?

R-No, but I think I would do, they did have examinations.

Aye, but at 13 year old I think.

R-Aye but I don’t remember.

‘Cause I mean, Jim were born the same year as you, Jim Pollard, and he said he took one at Alder Hill School in Earby and he were thirteen years old.

R-Did he fail?

No, he passed actually but he never went. Mind you, Jim weren’t interested in school at all, he were only interested in cricket.

R-Aye, he were.

And you were fourteen when you left school?

R-Aye.

Did you ever go to night school Ernie, afterwards?

R-No, there were one, th’incentive were there but I never saw it as being any advantage going to night school.

In Barlick?

R-I think there were, at t’gasworks. No, that were t’overlookers. No, I don’t remember really but there would be a night school I should think.

Can you ever remember going to school hungry.

R-Yes. I think I told you about me mother coming up to school one playtime and the gates used to be locked you see. She pushed these bananas through the bars of the gate for me and our Fred I suppose. I’d be happen about six or seven then.

How about dinners at school?

R-No, there were no dinners at school.

What did you do, go home?

R-Well aye, we’d go home then up to me mother getting her was widow’s pension and then we used to go to Holmes’s Café and we’d have torpedoes, threepence.

Aye, you said that about that before. Where exactly was the café?

R-It’s still there is the house, It’s a house now. You know Lamb Hill? Immediately on the left.

Which is Lamb Hill, up the side where they’ve built them new flats?

R-No, down Wapping, past the butcher’s shop and that little hill. That’s Lamb Hill and it’s on the left there. Right at the back of it there’s a man’s face cut out of stone in the wall.

I didn’t know that. There is an old building there and all.

R-Well, there is, it must be an old building aye.

While you were at school did they train you in anything practical? Like woodwork, metalwork or owt like that?

R-No, just reading, writing and arithmetic and a bit of religion.

How about sports?

R-Oh, we used to have an afternoon up on’t top rec. I think it were Thursday afternoon, football.

Did your mother ever go to school about you? You know, about your progress or how they were treating you or owt like that?

R-No.

Did she show any interest in your school work?

R-Well, I fancy she would do when we were learning to read and things like that and she’d help us if she could. ‘Cause she were all right, she could read and write all right. But I had an aunty that couldn’t read or write.

Why were that do you think? Lack of education or just….

R-Well, it’d be lack of education. When she were a child she were maybe sick and couldn’t go to school.

So there’d be nothing else. As I say, when you come to leave school there’d be no such thing as careers advice or anything like that?

R-Oh no. You’d to rely on a relation asking t’manager. Well me aunt Louise must have asked the manager here [Bancroft] ‘Can my nephew come to learn to weave?’ And he’d say yes. Another wage slave, they were always welcome and they didn’t cost ‘em owt.

If someone were poorly, would the neighbours go round to help?

R-Oh aye, I think they would.

How neighbourly were people?

R-Oh I think they were very neighbourly. I don’t ever remember anybody round us locking the door, never mind owt else. Yes they were, they must have been neighbourly. They’d help each other. There were no,…. In my experience there were nothing like keeping up with the Jones’s in them days. I don’t think there were any Jones’s in those days.

Aye, that’s it. Did the neighbours visit each other often?

R-Calling they call that [Dialect word, pronounced like ‘palling’] Aye, always calling going on.

When were that, mainly in the evenings?

R-Well aye, in th’evenings, there always seemed to be someone in your house anyway, calling.

Is that right. Aye, a cup of tea and a good chat, a natter.

R-Bit of scandal happen, there must have been plenty of scandal in them days, ‘She’s off again…..’

Did they talk at t’door steps a lot?

R-In summer time. Aye we used to sit on’t door step and chat I suppose. But I mean, as lads, we were always out you know, there were no sitting in and watching the telly you know, you had to go out and find a bit of fun.

Can you remember any of the neighbours quarrelling over anything.

R-Oh there used to be some rip-roaring bloody rows, aye there were. But I don’t think there were any malice after, they seemed to bury the hatchet fairly quick but mostly the rows were over kids, you know how kids can cause bother. I remember me mother having a row with a bloke, and he were justified were this feller for giving me a good hiding, I had chucked a stone at his lad. Funny thing I saw him a few weeks since and he still has, well, he’ll have a scar for ever on his cheek where I hit him with this stone. Well, we were playing together again a few days after.

When you threw the stone you intended to hit him?

R-Oh I intended to kill him! Oh well, I don’t know what it were about, but it must have been nothing really.

Now you were badly off, can you remember anyone that were worse off then you?

R-Now, worse off. There were a lot on my level, I fancy they went to school hungry many a time but worse off? No, I don’t remember anyone worse off, there were a few better off but I don’t think there were any worse off. I mean if you hadn’t your breeches arse out in them days you were a cissie!

Can you ever remember anyone giving food away, you know, like soup kitchens or owt like that.

R-Oh can remember that aye. Salvation Army, there used to be a soup kitchen there at different times. I’ve been wi’t jug and come home with it full up.

Whereabouts were that.

R-That were down where the Sally Army is now. [In 1978 this was on Gisburn Road in the block of buildings below Gisburn Road School and on the same side.]

Yes, down at Damside, yes. Was there ever a workhouse in Barlick.

R-Not as I remember, not a workhouse as such. There were those lodging houses where t’wanderers used to live.

Aye, the Models, yes.

R-T’Models, aye. But we used to call ‘em tramp weavers.

Well, you’ve already said about the Models, there were two down Butts weren’t there? What sort of people were in’t Models?

R-Well, I thought they were all right. They were boozers mostly but I thought they were all right.


SCG/15 June 2001
6,462 words



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/4

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 20TH OF JULY 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT SHED, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER, AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.



Now then, what were the rough streets in your area Ernie?

R-Wapping were t’rough part of Barnoldswick then. It were old property, run down property mostly. Oh, it were definitely the roughest area in Barnoldswick.

What were the better part?

R-Oh, the better part were down Gisburn Road, where the Catholic Church is now. I mean, when I were a lad there were only Gisburn Road and the avenues were being built. [Then there were] Manchester Road, Wapping, Esp Lane and all round that area.

Who would you say were then considered to be the most important people in the town?

R-Well I reckon the important people would be the manufacturers, they must have been. Everybody seemed to quake and quail and break out in a cold sweat if they were anywhere about. I mean doctors were important, lawyers weren’t important, not for such as me, it were a matter of births marriages and deaths, official documentation. There were no income tax papers, nothing like that. I never remember filling a form up all the time I were growing up, not of any kind. In fact I’m 62 and I haven’t filled so many bloody forms up anyway!

Did you ever come into contact with the manufacturers?

R-Do you mean person to person?

Yes.

R-Not really. Did I ever tell you that tale about …. Bloke called Jack walking through the warehouse and his shoe sole’s hanging off. You know how it used to get, like a crocodile’s mouth with the nails showing. Blackburn Holden, one of the Holdens it were, it’d be old Blackburn that were walking with him and he says What’s wrong with your shoe Jack? And Jack says, Me shoe soles hanging off. And this manufacturer put his hand in his pocket and pulled out a big wad of notes and took the elastic band off it. He says, Put that round, it’ll stop it flapping about. Jack thought he were going to get a new pair of shoes. That’s a tale they used to tell, I can imagine it being true. Oh aye, I’ll bet it’s God’s Truth. I had some bloody bad warps in at one time at Blackburn Holdens. I run six looms all week, this is God’s Truth, may I never move out of this chair, I went for me wage on Wednesday, I had one [piece] off at four shilling. It were one and threepence stamp [National Insurance], and so I had two shillings and ninepence to take home for a week’s hard work and I were only seventeen then. I says Is this all I have to come? Two and ninepence? But they all turned a blind eye and that were it. I couldn’t go to anybody and tell ‘em, there were nowt, I mean, there’s a basic wage now, it couldn’t happen today, times have changed that much.

Aye, we’ll get on to wage scales when we get on to the weaving job. What did children, what did you think about the police in them days?

R-Well, there were only one I think. They always seemed to be all right with us. I don’t remember anybody ever being summonsed, not lads, and there’d be no malicious damage, there’d be an odd window broke but I don’t remember any malicious damage. There were a lot of bloody poachers, poachers used to get done. But they [the police] were all right, they must have been all right because anyone who has done me a bad turn, I remember. And I remember them that’s done me a good turn as well and I don’t remember the police ever doing me any harm.

Can you remember anyone being called a real gentleman or a real lady? Have you ever thought of anyone as a real gentleman?

R-Oh I thought about Slater up there, I thought he were a real gentleman. I realised after I grew up and he was dead and gone that the reason his face was that colour, it’d be the whisky. He used to frighten me in a way, but I thought he was a real gentleman. It was like gratitude from me to think that he could go out of his way to treat me like a human being. I mean I were in contact wi’ a manufacturer weren’t I? He were a manufacturer. He must have been a gentleman because all t’kids of Barlick could come up here at New Year and they all got six new halfpennies and that went on for years.

When you say ‘come up here’….

R-They’d come from all over Barnoldswick, he lived up here up Folly Lane in that big house up there, still there.

Newfield Edge.

R-Is that what they call it? Newfield Edge? Well everybody that went there got six new halfpennies. He’s the only bugger I ever knew, or I’ve ever heard of, where that happened.

Aye, it’s a funny thing that. Billy Brooks was on about [another Slater] I think it’d be his father, Harry Slater [father to Newfield Edge Slater?] and he lived in that terrace opposite Clough and he used to give all the kids an orange at Christmas, that’d be his father. Billy said he once tried to go round twice.

R-oh aye, I fancy lots went up there twice, or tried to do but I never did. Not once. I consider meself to be honest, I’ve never diddled anybody to my knowledge in me life, intentionally I mean.

That’s a fair statement to be able to make.

R-Well it’s God’s Truth. I’ve always paid when I could pay and I owe nothing. I’ve been in debt many a time but I owe nothing now.

How about health, I know you had bad health when you were a kid.

R-Oh very bad. I was always ailing sommat. Tonsillitis, and then I got a bad heart. Well, I told you, I only had three months to live and I could go to Bonny’s shop, it only lasted a week.

Did your mother have any special cures for illness?

R-Oh aye, I’ve had rashers of bacon round me neck like, inside a flannel you know for tonsillitis. And I remember one time, I must have had tonsillitis every other bloody week, she must have got a cure from somewhere, flowers of sulphur. She rolled these flowers of sulphur in a newspaper and made like a funnel and were blowing it down me throat. She got it into me mouth and she’d just come to blow and just in that split second before she blew, I blew! So I got a good hiding on top of me tonsillitis. She were blinded with this bloody sulphur, aye. I’ve been mischievous that way, I’ve got a perverted sense of humour, if I see somebody fall I have to laugh.

I think we all do it. Aye, somebody falling on a banana skin, it’s the funniest thing in the world isn’t it.

R-There’s not only banana skins about in’t streets, it’s dog shit you slip on nowadays, I nearly had a nasty accident meself the other night.

Well, you’re saying something there, do you think there’s more dog muck about in the streets than there used to be?

R-Oh, it used to be like…. I mean, if you stood on some dog shit years ago it were like, it were powder. It just went to powder but it doesn’t now, It’s shit wi’ a capital S! Did I ever tell you the tale about the new landlord that come into Barlick? They always used to have snuff on the bar, you know, they could have a sniff whenever they felt like it. There must have been a lot of snuff takers in them days. Well, this dinnertime when t’new landlord’s taken over there were a bloke come in and he says to the landlord after he’d got his pint, Where’s t’snuff? So the landlord says, What snuff? He said, This snuff box is empty, there’s allus snuff on’t bar. Oh, t’landlord says, I’ll get some this afternoon. And when he closed for the afternoon, he went looking for some snuff and all t’shops were shut. So he’s coming back like, in pensive mood wondering what he could do. This bloke’d be coming in for an evening pint and some snuff and he had none. And he put his foot on a piece of dog shit and it went to powder. He thought, that just looks like snuff, I’ll get some. So he put some of this powdered dog shit in his snuff box and put it on’t bar. This bloke comes in at night, Oh he says I see you’ve got some snuff. Pint of ale like and he had a sniff at this snuff and he says to the landlord, By Gum, there’s a strong smell of dog shit, it must be good snuff this, I couldn’t smell it before, it’s cleared me head! [Laughter] Eh, I wonder if that’s true, it could be true, let’s change t’subject.

I don’t know, the subject’s all right Ernie. I tell you, let’s digress a minute, a fellow called Mayhew wrote a book about t’poor in London and one of the occupations in London, people were living on the streets you know, no homes and hard up and they were collecting dog muck for the tanners to use it and they called it ‘pure’. And what they used to prize more than anything else were, you know when a dog’s been eating a bone, it’s white is the muck isn’t it. That were the sort they were after and so they used to roll turds that weren’t white in chalk to make them white. And that’s how they made a living, collecting dog muck.

R-Aye, and they used to collect human pee as well for sommat. What were that for/ Was that for tanning as well?

For t’wool, for t’wool. Sommat to do with scouring wool. [Known in Lancashire as ‘lant’, human urine was collected for use in fulling mills where it was aged and then used as an agent to combine with the grease in the wool and make a crude soap which aided the fulling process by softening and lubricating the wool.]

Can you remember the doctor calling?

R-Oh aye, the doctor used to come fairly often, for me mostly.

Who were your doctor?

R-Dr Glen, he were an old quack.

What makes you say that?

R-Well, I’ll tell you. When I was sixteen, I went with a girl without much experience, either her or me and wi’ frigging about, I got a sore dick and it worried me. It looked bloody ugly really. I were putting Germolene on and all sorts and making it worse so I finished up going to Dr Glen. I told him like, I’d been wi’ a girl and he says, Let’s have a look. So I let him have a look and he immediately says Syphilis! All t’blood drained, I’d heard about Syphilis, well I did, I’d been enquiring after getting this sore point. Oh I had a bloody sweat on! He gave me some ointment for it and I finished up, I plucked up courage and went to Burnley to the VD clinic. This doctor, he examined me and had a good look and examined me and when he’d finished he said, There’s nothing wrong with you. When you get back to Barlick take this letter to your doctor. What he’d written in that letter I never knew so I took it, I were so relieved. I took this letter to Dr Glen and he read it and screwed it up into a little ball and threw it in the corner and as much said to me, Get out! He must have been a bloody quack to look at a lad’s dick and say Syphilis, you just can’t do that.

Unless he just meant to put the wind up you.

R-Well, why did he go on treating me? He didn’t know.

Aye, it makes you wonder doesn’t it.

R-It were like it is today, hit and miss. If this medicine doesn’t do, try that. I never had any faith in Dr Glen after that.

No, you wouldn’t have would you.

R-Oh no.

You say you weren’t sure what were wrong with you and you went round and asked. Who would you ask then, round your mates or how?

R-Well, mates. Aye you’d ask but I mean, in them days, VD? Oh deary me, if you got VD you’d be sent to Siberia! But I mean, who could you ask? Well, I don’t know, I don’t think I asked anybody, I just figured it out for myself. I made some enquiries about VD, what it was like. I mean, in’t Great War it were like a common disease. Didn’t they call it French Disease long ago?

Aye, that’s it and the French called it English disease.

R-Aye, they would do.

No, that’s right is that. I mean, they used to call it English Disease. But was there any way, did you ever come across any way of finding out anything like that when you were growing up? Did anybody ever try to put you straight about things like VD and going with women?

R-Not really, it were like experience that you picked up as time went on, from your own experience. But I do remember, well, it were before this scare I had, or after, at Liverpool there were a museum of anatomy and I went to Liverpool, maybe some July holiday, and went to this museum and had a look round.

Did you go just to go to this museum?

R-Aye. Just out of curiosity.

Aye, that’s the sort of thing I could imagine you doing.

R-Oh I did, I did. I’d be about eighteen years old then I suppose ‘cause it didn’t cost much to go.

Yes, were you any wiser when you came back?

R-Well I were more shocked to think that that might have happened to me. There were some specimens in bottles you know and models. Oh it were bloody awful. I mean they can treat it now, they can cure it better than treating a bad cold.

Yes, as long as you can take antibiotics.

R-Aye, but I mean in them days it were disastrous really.

Aye. I’ve told you about Harry White treating ‘em for VD haven’t I, with mercury ointment.

R-Aye.

‘Cause that used to be one of the things, mercury ointment.

R-Yes, well I’ll tell you about Rosie’s Cottage in Colombo in Ceylon.

Aye, that’s it. We’ll get on to Rosie’s Cottage.

R-Half the size of Barnoldswick.

Aye, we’ll get on to Rosie’s Cottage when we get on to your war service. Do you think anyone got down to giving their children any sort of sex education? Or do you think that most people were left to find things out for themselves?

R-Oh I think they were left to find things out for themselves. I’ll tell you what, there were three lads in our house and I remember me mother saying …. We were all like experimenting and going with girls you know, I mean it were going on , it’s still going on and it’ll go on for ever… she got us together and said If you get any of these girls into trouble, no matter who it is, you’ll marry ‘em. Luckily I never did get anyone in the family way and our Wilson didn’t but th’elder brother did. We used to sleep together and this is when we’d moved from Wapping up Manchester Road.

At No 9 Westgate?

R-No, from No 9 Westgate up to Manchester Road, No 72 Manchester Road it were. They’re all knocked down are them houses now. [Opposite Castle View.] Fred were courting this girl, Annie, and he slept with me, candle we had and I mean, we’re getting to modern times and we still had a bloody candle. He were sat on the edge of the bed wi’ the candle lit and I got a bit agitated and I said, Aren’t you getting into bed? We’ll never get up in the morning. What’s up with thee? And he said I’ve got Annie in the family way. Well, I were glad, I shouldn’t have been glad but I were, get bloody rid of him, he were a right bully. Anyway, he married her but it tickled me then when Fred got Annie in the family way. But sex education at school? It were tadpoles, that’s all it were. Get some frogs eggs, put ‘em into a bottle and watch ‘em develop. Aye, tadpoles!

How did you get to know about the VD clinic at Burnley?

R-I fancy it’d be up in the toilets.

That’s it, posters in the gents toilets, aye.

R-I remember going as if it were yesterday, he were a real gentleman were this doctor and he examined me and I were frightened to death. I were.

Yes, you would be and I would.

R-mentally frightened and there were bugger all wrong with me all that time. It were cruel.

It were, it were cruel. Did you belong to a hospital scheme at all? You know, like paying into penny hospital or owt like that?

R-Don’t think so. But didn’t they use to knock a penny out of our wage, for hospitals, or twopence, I seem to remember something like that.

Yes, it depends where you were. That’s how that hospital at Barrowford at Nelson got built you know. Penny and twopence knocked out of t’wage. That’s why there’s all this trouble about it now, because in some ways a lot of people say it belongs to the town you know. Did anyone in your house ever have an operation at home.

R-At home? No, no. I don’t think so, I never heard of one. But one or two went in hospital and had operations, what they call hysterectomies now. I mean, it were ‘everything was removed’ in them days. I remember me aunty Annie going, whether she had cancer of the womb or not I don’t know but ‘everything was removed’ and by gum, she was about 75 or 76 when she died and she were fairly young when she went for the operation.

Aye, it didn’t do her any harm.

R-No, it did her good.

Can you remember any of the babies being born at home, any of the children being born at home.

R-No, because same as in my home, all the babies had been born like [when I got old enough to notice].

Were there any diseases that you particularly dreaded catching, apart from syphilis?

R-It weren’t a matter of dreading it, it were that, I mean, Scarlet Fever were rampant in them days, there used to be a green van going round, you’d see it regular going down to the fever hospital. It’d be somebody that had caught this scarlet fever, whatever it were, I don’t know what it were, do you?

Scarlet fever, that was what they called it weren’t it, Scarlatina, that was what it was called.

R-I know the skin used to fall off.

Aye, I can remember people having it. [Scarlatina was the old fashioned name for Scarlet Fever which was a very serious disease in children. It was a streptococci infection and attacked children between two years old and about ten by which time most had gained an immunity. Children under two were protected to some extent by antibodies inherited from their mother. In the thirties patients were isolated at the fever hospital built on Banks Hill and now demolished. The green ambulance was known as the fever wagon. In Stockport on my youth they were yellow I think.]

R-And diphtheria. Our Wilson had diphtheria and Scarlet fever, but after he’d gone into hospital they found out that he hadn’t got Scarlet Fever but he were to stop there anyway. Isolation. I remember going and looking through the window and laughing at him.

Now, there’s a question here, do you know any children with rickets?

R-Well, I think I must have had rickets. I couldn’t stop a pig in a ginnel. Bow legs, I always think it were like wrong diet.

That’s it, yes.

R-I mean, how many bow-legged kids do you see about today?

That’s one of the things that makes me ask you about people when they were working for these very low wages. I mean it were obvious that some people were making money, but I mean others had got kids at home with bow-legs.

R-Aye, there’s none of the Nutters bow-legged.

Well now, there you are, that’s it in a nutshell isn’t it.

R-Well there’s me and Fred, we’re both bow-legged but our Wilson isn’t. Things had bucked up a bit when he were starting running about.

Aye, that’s it, yes. Do you know whether your mother breast fed her children?

R-I think she must have breast fed them. Me mother had a lot of kids, I’ve told you before. I remember, we used to chat you know, and she told me she once had milk fever. And an abscess on her chest and t’cure for abscess on the breast were a cow clap. It sounds incredible does that but I think it would be true. She had a cow clap on her breast to cure this abscess.

To draw it, yes.

R-Well, if we were stung with a wasp when we were kids we used to put a bit of cow muck on.

Was your mother ever particular about disinfecting the house or catching flies, you know what I mean, was there anything she was down on?

R-Well I mean, it were a penny flycatcher. And when there were ten million flies on it you’d buy another flycatcher and there were millions of flies about.

[These flycatchers were a strip of paper covered with a sticky substance which trapped the flies. They were common in my youth as well.]

Ye, the old sticky tape!

R-Aye and disinfectant as well, she used to cadge a bit of powder off like him that come round wi’ t’cart. Every time he emptied the tub [in the dry toilet] they used to scatter some of this powder in. But I mean she wouldn’t be able to afford to go and buy…. well, I don’t know whether there were any, there would be but I don’t remember any. Lysol happen, I seem to remember seeing some Lysol about. I know it were a nice smell. But disinfectants as such, I think you used to be able to get some from the Council yard, it were like black tar and diluted with water it used to come up like a creamy colour, didn’t that smell nice.

Aye, that’s it, very similar to Jeyes Fluid. Probably would be Jeyes fluid.

R-Aye, probably.

You can still get it nowadays but it isn’t as thick as it used to be. Course, I’ve noticed that about a lot of things.

R-Aye, that’s true!

That house in John Street, can you ever remember anyone decorating while you were there?

R-No, looking at it today, I don’t think the bugger’s ever been decorated in its life! No, not really. I mean, paint and paper, it all cost money and they weren’t really essential.

Aye, most of the houses down there, you know, if someone moved into an empty house down Wapping, in’t poor end of town then, what would they do? Would they give it a coat of whitewash when they moved in? Do you think they’d do anything like that.

R-They’d clean it up. Aye, I reckon they might whiten the roof and they did have wallpaper, of course they did.

Aye, but that house at John Street?

R-It was mostly faded. It weren’t an annual affair by any means. Maybe someone backed a winner or had a bit of luck, had someone insured who died or they backed a winner. Of course, then, they might brighten the house up a bit. But decorating, I don’t think it were a regular job.

Anyway, you’re fourteen years old now and you’re leaving school. When you left school, you’ve already said you came and helped your aunt Louise up here. [Bancroft]

R-Yes, she learned me to weave.

How long were you up here at Bancroft?

R-Well, I can’t have been up here so long because I were weaving at Blackburn Holdens at Calf Hall when I were 16 years old. [This is accurate because later on Ernie describes the damage done at Calf Hall during the Flood of July 12th 1932.]

That were at 16. And that ‘ud be a regular job weaving?

R-Oh yes, aye.

Just think about Bancroft for a kick off. Let’s just stick to Bancroft for a minute or two. Can you remember the first day you came up to Bancroft to go in with your aunt Louise and learn?

R-Aye, Monday Morning, went in wi’ me aunt Louise, I called at her house and she fetched me up. But before then, I’d been at t’mill many a time you know. I think I could weave when I were ten year old in a fashion. I could put cops on, set looms on and take an odd end up. It were only a matter of a week or two and I could run two looms. Not really efficient, but in a fashion.

Them cops then, they’d be mule cops would they?

R-They were.

No tubes?

R-Oh no.

Paper bottoms?

R-Aye, a little paper tube in the bottom, not always, many a time you’d get ‘em wi’ no paper in at all.

Skewering? [This was putting the cop on the shuttle peg, if the peg went off line and ‘stabbed’ the cop it wouldn’t weave off. Cardboard or wooden pirns cured this as they gave a ready made access for the peg. Before they became standard, mule weft was either built up on a dab of paste [a paste bottom] or a small paper tube about two inches long. Both of these were liable to be ‘stabbed’.]

R-I mean, that were an art, skewering a cop, some weavers could do it, I never could. I used to go in the mill thin and come out fat with all them bloody stabbed cops.

I know what you mean, but explain it.

R-Oh well, what waste you made, you used to take it in the warehouse and it were inspected. Sometimes they’d come across a little cop bottom and chuck it back at you and say Weave that off! And it’d be a fellow worker that were telling you to weave that off. But better than a weaver, it’d be a warehouse man, Methodist more than likely.

Is that right?

R-Oh aye, he’d be a pillar of the church, used to read the lessons. Weave that off! And you had to weave it off or take it home.

What were the hierarchy in the mill? Who were the lowest and who were the highest? Can you run through them? Who were the lowest of the low?

R-Well, weavers were the lowest of the low and after them, cutlookers would be the next rung up the ladder, then tapers and tacklers, tacklers ‘ud be the top rung and then there’d be the manager and the boss.

Where would t’sweeper come?

R-There were no sweepers in them days, t’weaver were t’sweeper and oiler.

Was anyone cloth-carrying? Weft carrying? Roller carrying?

R-No. Weaver used to pull the piece off, fold it up and carry it into the warehouse

When you say fold it up, you don’t mean to plait it, you just mean to carry it in on the roller.

R-No, not on the roller. Pulled off the roller and plaited like. In one piece, then they used to hump it on their back and take it into the warehouse.

So there were no roller carrying because the roller never came off the loom actually.

R-Oh no, t’roller never came out of the loom.

Different than it is now.

R-Oh aye, but they’d only four looms where there’s ten now and more. So really, in them days, apart from the wages, they were better off in them days. As far as physical effort went.

That’s interesting, aye. Now we’ll just jump ahead a bit here. It were 1930 when you came here, where were you when the More Looms System came in?

R-Fernbank, what do you call it? Cairns and Lang. There was just one eight loom weaver there and there’d been hell to pop about it. It were 1934, I’d be about eighteen then and there were just this one, this eight loom weaver and I were sweeping, sweepers must have started. When t’weavers got more looms, sweepers started. That’s when I’m earning twenty seven bob a week. And for some reason, after a time they gave up with t’sweepers and with me being able to weave, I got four loom and I were making two pound a week. I felt like a millionaire going from 27/- to 40/-.

And you say there was just one set of eight looms?

R-Just this one man.

What do you think that’d be, a bit of an experiment?

R-It must have been, aye. It must have been an experiment.

When did they actually go on to More Looms?

R-Well, I had six looms when I were sixteen or seventeen so different mills must have been experimenting with More Looms.

That’d be about 1933 so you’d be at Calf Hall?

R-That were at Calf Hall.

Of course, there were six loom weavers even before the More Looms System but there weren’t so many of them.

R-Oh, I’ve heard of ‘em talking about six loom weavers but they had a tenter.

I were going to say, there weren’t many of them, they were top class and they had a tenter.

R-That’s right.

Who paid the tenter?

R-Weaver paid the tenter. He wouldn’t pay him so much. I don’t know really, happen about half a crown or five bob.

Billy Brooks said that when he started, mind you, that was about 1892, he got half a crown and a penny for his self.

R-Aye, they had to be very good weavers to have five loom even.

Yes, he said that in those days a weaver could make about four bob a week on a loom, all week.

R-Oh aye, Ill bet he was, it would be like that.

So on a six loom set that’d be 24 bob and half a crown a week for the tenter. So you’re at work now, up here at Bancroft. Bancroft ‘ud be full up in them days?

R-Oh aye, it would be.

Now in 1930 there’d be a full complement of looms in here because they’d be narrow looms wouldn’t they?

R-No, there’s always been a mixture of looms in there. There were some 60 inch looms in there then. T’first two looms I had were 60 inches, they were like Sherman Tanks! Clattering and banging away there. Bit I can never kind of recollect why I left here, I must have been sacked I think. [60 inch refers to the width of the loom, the reed space, in other words the loom could weave a piece of cloth 60 inches wide.]

One point of interest, you’re working at Bancroft now, 43 years later. Has anything changed at Bancroft since you first came up here to learn to weave with your aunt Louise?

R-Nothing, not a bloody thing, It’s exactly the same only more run down. Exactly the same only t’floors gone up and down and all t’paint’s peeled off. I reckon there’s some piles of muck here that were there when I learned to weave.

So there’d be eleven hundred looms in here. What were the average, about four looms? [per weaver]

R-Oh aye, most of them on four looms.

So that’d be how many weavers?

R-Oh, there’d be two hundred and fifty.

There’d be getting on for 300 weavers wouldn’t there.

R-Aye, counting five loom weavers and odd six loom weavers.

Now there’d still be a kettle in the warehouse for brewing up?

R-Yes.

Was that boiling water free?

R-Well, it’s always been free in my time but I’ve heard them weavers say that they paid a penny a week for hot water.

Aye, I’ve heard that myself. And most of the weavers ‘ud bring a brew can with them?

R-Oh aye, I had a brew can, most of them had brew cans.

Aye, there’s still one left, it’s on the window cill.

R-Aye, they used to brew it at home and fill it up with hot water here.

Mash it at home ‘cause the water would probably be hotter at home.

R-Aye, mash it at home. Put milk and sugar in and then it’s all right, it works.

Yes of course it does. In those days, was there a canteen here?

R-Oh no.

Where did you eat your meals?

R-Well, any corner, in th’alley mostly. Then we’d come out into the yard and have a game of football with a rag ball. And as soon as th’old engine started, in, knockers on ready, great days really.

What makes you say great days?

R-Well, I’m not saying ‘Great Days’ because they were great days. I’m saying great days in a , what’s that word.

Nostalgia?

R-No, derogatory or something. No I think they were bloody awful days. But, we’d been brain washed and we didn’t realise they were awful days. Just imagine, working regular and having bugger all. If you didn’t save up twelve month you were destitute at July holiday week, destitute. There isn’t so many young uns that’d save owt would they?

Did they have a holiday club?

R-Oh aye, there’s always been holiday clubs and if you could save a tanner a week or a shilling you were all right, so long as you had a wage that week.

Now I do know that in later years you fulfilled a lifelong ambition and I think we ought to have it on the end of this tape because I do know for a fact that at one time you were in the happy position of having a hundred pounds in the holiday club.

Oh aye.

Tell me about it.

R-That’s after the war. Yes, I’d saved a hundred pounds and I told the office man, Frank Cowgill…..

Which mill were this?

R-Widdup’s at Moss shed. I wanted paying out in pound notes. OK he says, he’ll pay me out in pound notes. So he paid me this hundred pounds, and it’s a fair old roll is a hundred pound notes. And when he gave it me I got a piece of string out of me pocket and tied it up and I tied it on to a button and put it in me pocket. Frank stood there and he says You’re not going to lose that! I said No, I aren’t! And I pulled it out of me pocket and swung it round on the string and t’bloody string come loose and t’pound notes flicked all over the place. I’ve never seen Frank laugh like he laughed that day. Years after he used to say Remember them pound notes? I’d say Aye, but I caught them all up! Aye, a lifetime’s ambition, one hundred pounds. I’ve always, since I’ve been able to, I’ve been in’t holiday club up to this year, we’ve no holiday club this year, poor old Sidney.

[Sidney Nutter, the office man at Bancroft always ran the holiday club but he died suddenly of a brain tumour shortly before the mill closed. He was solely responsible for the club, it was nothing to do with the firm. He used to keep the money that the subscriptions earned in interest as payment for running the club.]

Aye, that’s it, with Sidney dying. What holidays, when you first started up here in 1930, run through the holidays that they had in the year here.

R-Well, you used to get Whit Monday, Christmas Day, happen Boxing Day, I don’t remember right, and a week at July. But holidays in them days, it were like hardship really because people were stood with one or two loom sometimes. And there were no pay for stopped looms, not like that, I’ve stood wi’ one loom meself if trade were bad.

When you say ‘standing with one loom’, you mean if you had a set of four looms but only one warp in?

R-That’s right, only getting paid for one.

What could you make on one loom?

R-Well, it might make you ten bob.

Was there a local list here in Barlick? T’weavers union, they’d have a local list?

R-Oh they must have had because there used to be a government official came round to make sure that the weavers weren’t diddled.

How many different sorts did they have at Bancroft then? You know what I mean, nowadays we are in a position where we’re running with probably 30 different sorts in the shed aren’t we. In those days, did they have as many different sorts as they do now?

R-Well, they would have. In my experience in weaving, there’s always been good payers, like in a scale of payments for weaving one particular cloth, there’s always been a certain cloth, a certain quality that could make more money than other qualities. Poorest payers of all, well t’boozers would get ‘em and Methodist’s would get the best.

Which really was the uniform list not working, because the uniform list was really meant to counteract that wasn’t it. It was meant to make it so that if you had a bad cloth to weave you got more money for weaving it and a good cloth to weave you got less money and it averaged the weavers out wouldn’t it.

Oh aye, it’s a good idea but it never worked that way. It doesn’t work that way today.

How about pick clocks Ernie, when did they start?

R-Don’t know when they first started.

Were they on when you started?

R-No, I never saw a pick clock up to going into the army, early 1940. My first clocks were after I came out of the army.

Yes, well, there you are. So in those days the only way that you got paid was for a piece.

R-Yes, a piece.

When was reckoning up day, when were the last time…..

R-Making up day’s usually Friday.

What time on Friday?

R-Well say about four o’clock. And that piece had to be in the warehouse or you couldn’t book it for pay. So everybody were striving and struggling to get those pieces off.

What happened if you took a short piece in?

R-Oh there’d be hell to pop!

Was it ever done?

R-Oh well, what they used to do, they’d wet the mark, you know the mark? [on the warp] It might be two or three times round, well if you wet it you’ll get a faint mark and you’d leave the other bit in for the next piece.

So where the cut mark were on the warp at the back, you’d wet that and the dye ‘ud come through….

R-Aye, it’d come up through.

And mark the sheet so it would come through about three turns earlier.

R-That’s right.

And you could just happen get that piece off and get it into the warehouse for that week.

R-That’s right. I mean, it weren’t robbing anybody, they still had that cloth to weave but it were like desperation days and they’d to get that piece in. I mean the piece ‘ud be about six bob or sommat like that. I think a good weaver ‘ud make about £2 in 1930.

What would the average length of a piece be?

R-Hundred yards.

That were a piece.

R-They were always a hundred yards if I remember right.

They vary a bit now don’t they.

R-Four hundred yards.

Aye, but of course, nowadays they aren’t paid by the piece, they’re paid on pick count aren’t they.

R-That’s right, so it’s immaterial how long the piece is.

Yes, in fact it could be said that there were advantages in having big pieces because it’s less time wasted stopping the loom to change the roller over.

R-Well aye, you could say that.

How many looms would a tackler have in his set in a place like Bancroft?

R-Hundred and forty four.

R-Was that a standard?

R-Aye.

How many in a set now, I’m not talking about the way we run at Bancroft but if it were at a place that were decently run. What’s a standard set now for tackling.

R-Plain Lancashire looms? About seventy. So that in theory, tacklers in them days had twice as much work as we have today.

But…..

R-Well, I don’t know about any buts.

Ah well, I think I’ve heard you say this before. The thing was that in those days the looms were new weren’t they.

R- Aye, they were, they were and small shuttles and one weaver for four looms. Most of the weavers could do part tackling you know. Little jobs like weaving bart [Dialect word for ‘without’.] weft and such.

So it’s quite possible in those days that there was less trouble with the looms than there is now.

R-Oh, there were a lot less trouble. I reckon a loom’d run trouble free practically for a long, long time.

SCG/17 June 2001. 6971 words



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/5

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 26TH OF JULY 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT SHED, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.



So, we’ll start at 1930 again tonight Ernie.

R-OK.

So you’ve just left school and you are looking for your first job. Tell me about the first job you ever got.

R-Well, I don’t think there was much difficulty finding work, young lads. They had a foundry at Skipton, King’s Foundry and they used to employ boys, slaves they were, two pence three farthings an hour doing a man’s job. I had a job there, me first job were buffing rough edges of [cast iron] manhole covers. No wonder I’m bloody bow legged, lifting them things and it were twopence three farthings an hour and I just lasted a week or two, that’s all. And that didn’t add up to much, six days a week that were, Saturday mornings, four or five bob a week and I used to bring about six bob home for me mother. So, like th’Old Girl says, Finish, see if you can get a job in weaving.

Why do you think they were keen to employ young lads Ernie?

R-Well, they were employing them for next to nothing, that’d be why. In later years, all the lads that stayed there and served their apprenticeship, they were sacked when they came into being qualified for full pay. It were a right bloody slave shop, it must have been. Dewhurst’s [Mill. Sylko Sewing Thread] not far away at Skipton, they employed a lot of young girls on the same lark. That would be about 1930.

So in other words, you can nearly say that as school leavers went in, somebody else had to come out.

R-Oh, more than likely, aye. There’d be one or two, well, they were gaffers, bullies really. Anyway I got the order of the bullet. I think I buffed some edges off flanges, I buffed the flange off, that were it, instead of t’rough edges. I thought, I’ll have the bloody lot off here and get out. So out I went and then I must have come up to Bancroft learning to weave with me aunt Louise.

Aunt Louise, that were it. And how long were you here at Bancroft Ernie, let’s get the jobs sorted out first.

R-Oh I couldn’t have been here a long while because I were weaving at Calf Hall when I were sixteen. So I must have learned to weave up here, I might have been here about, oh I could have been here two years and then I went to t’Calf Hall weaving because me mother were a weaver there and me brother. Trade must have bucked up and they’d be short of weavers. So th’Old Girl must have said I’ve seen Edward, she called the boss Edward, Edward Holden, and you can come weaving here. That’s where I had that bloody four shillings to draw, two shillings and ninepence to take home.

That were Blackburn Holden’s? And you went down there on two looms?

R-Six looms, so they must have been short of weavers.

How many looms did you have up here?

R-Well, I might have had, I wouldn’t have above two or three.

So how long did you stop at Calf Hall Ernie?

R-Oh I were there a bit. Well, I couldn’t have been there so long either, they wove out [stopped manufacturing] and I were at Cairns and Lang’s at Fernbank Shed when I were eighteen, so I must have been at Calf Hall about two years. I went to Cairns and Lang’s at sweeping, twenty seven shillings a week. We had a bit of a strike, there’d be seven sweepers there I think and we wanted a rise. So after consultations and meetings and bollockings he gave us a rise, a shilling a week. It were like an incentive bonus that, we were to load t’bloody cloth and do other jobs that turned up so we had twenty eight bob a week then. Now not long after that they did away with sweepers, they were kaput, they went back on the four loom system and I got four looms and I were making £2 a week. I were like a bloody millionaire, two pounds a week! I’d never been as well off in me life up to then. I used to give th’Old Girl a pound and I’d have a pound for meself, I were a right weekend millionaire I were. I’d have a fancy hat and oh it were a good do that were.

So that were at eighteen years old, how long did you stop there Ernie at Fernbank?

R-That were at eighteen. Well, I must have been about nineteen, I left there out of work, they wove out, it were like that. I used to go standing for work at Pickles’s at Bouncer [Barnsey shed] . You used to go, as they started, they started at seven then I think. Well you’d get there about quarter to seven, twenty to and stand in’t warehouse, because I were signing on then you see [on the dole, unemployment benefit] when you went to sign on then, the little Hitler behind the counter says If you have no work, say no work before you sign your name. They’d ask you if you were looking for work and where you had been. Well, we used to tell him then that we were standing for work at t’Bouncer. Tacklers used to go round the mill and see if all the weavers were in and then t’manager would come out, not just for me, there’d be fifty or sixty of us, fellers of all ages stood there and he’d say ‘All Up’! So you buggered off then, that were another day to ponder on. And t’funny thing about it were, when I was making this two pound a week I bought a brand new bicycle, half a dollar a week, [12 ½ p.] a Hercules. And this particular morning when I’d been standing at work, I’m stood on the bridge [Long Ing Canal Bridge] and I were thinking of joining the army, I were that bloody desperate, I must have been out of work a bit then. And Alf Peckover, I’d known him a long while, he were only a young chap then, he were t’manager at Long Ing. He must have been to t’Bouncer on business and he were coming over. He says Hello Ernest, aren’t you working? I says no, I can’t get in. He says Would you have a do at sweeping? I says I’ll have a do at owt, I’ll start right now. He says Right, come on and I worked there until going in the army at twenty three years old. That were at Pickles’s at Long Ing.

Right, that’ll do us nicely, that takes us up to the army. I’m dodging you about this week but I want to dig into one or two things that are of particular interest. When you were weaving up here with your aunt Louise, now you tell me if I’m wrong. When you came up to learn to weave here, after you’d been at the foundry, you’d be what, about fourteen and a half, sommat like that. You didn’t get paid until you’d actually learned to weave and got on to two looms, you were put on two looms.

R-Oh aye, that’s true, oh we got nothing.

This is the thing I want to get at. The contrast between then and now is so enormous, with education, training schemes and all the rest of it and yet it seems to have worked. It seems to have turned weavers out.

R-Oh aye, oh it turned weavers out then, you mean in my day?

Yes.

R-Oh, you had to be a good weaver in them days.

Yes, now the thing I’m trying to get at Ernie, can you tell me, or give me an opinion, why that system turned out good weavers, which it did, there’s no doubt about that. If somebody had it in them, it turned weavers out.

R-Oh it did. Well I mean, it were survival. There were nothing else. If you didn’t learn to weave you were on the bloody scrap heap, or in the army if you were a man, a young man. And it were a case of take it in or else. And in my case it were ‘or else’. There were no really bad weavers, they just didn’t survive. If that cloth weren’t acceptable in the warehouse, out! And you’d got to earn money because the tackler’s wage was based on what the weavers earned and every week there’d be someone sacked. They used to put the averages up on the door, Joe Bloggs bottom – Kaput! Get t’bullet.

Now eventually the union stopped that didn’t they?

R-They did, they did.

Can you remember when?

R-No.

No, but that counted as harassment of weavers.

R-It would be harassment but they had to accept it you see?

Yes, and when the union stopped that, well, obviously the union must have been strong enough to stop it.

R-Oh aye, oh well, they’d been struggling a long time then had t’unions to get some capital so that they had like a fighting fund.

When you came to work here at first, how strong were the union at Bancroft in 1930? When I say the union, I mean the weaver’s union in particular.

R-Couldn’t say, couldn’t say for certain. You’d have to go to Nelson to find that out, to be certain.

Yes. Were you ever approached to join the union when you went on to two looms?

R-No. I did join the union eventually when I realised that it were the only chance for workers. But when you’ve been knocked about it takes years, a few years, to realise and accept these facts. When you see with your own eyes what’s going on, bloody terrible it were, bloody terrible. When I were sweeping at Long Ing I were having me breakfast at t’table in’t warehouse and there were these two tacklers sat there and they were sacking a chap and he had three kids. Ah well, we’ll get rid of him. I says I’ll tell him when I go in’t mill and one of these blokes says, Thee tell him and Tha’ll be out. I mean, I were only a bloody sweeper. Well I says, I’ll bloody tell him whether I’ll be out or not! And I told him and he didn’t get sacked that week, he got sacked the following week. Aye. I thought The bloody lousy swines, he wasn’t earning enough you see, might have been about ten bob a week less than someone else. I think it [tackler’s rate] was about one and six in the pound. [of weaver’s wages] Tacklers in them days were making double a weaver’s wage. So if we were making two pound, they’d be making four. Oh it were a right bloody vicious circle, terrible when you think about it that things could happen like that. I mean it were a working man exploiting a working man weren’t it? Talk about Love Thy Brother, they were vindictive and nasty. Thank God them days have gone and they’ll never come back.

And would you say Ernie that that was general?

R-Yes I would. And them tacklers I’ve just been telling you about they were both bloody Methodists, going to the same church or chapel. They’re both dead and gone now. What did they call ‘em? I was just going to say ‘Hello’ but I don’t know whether to look up or down to say hello to you two buggers. Harry Ormerod and Walter Broughton. Aye.

So the tackler in those days, he really was the weavers boss, he was the overlooker?

R-Oh aye, oh aye he were. Yes, if you got on the wrong side of t’tackler you’d had it. Well, I was sweeping there at the time, I was sweeping for this Walter Broughton and he had a hernia.

When you say you were sweeping for Walter Broughton, you were sweeping on his set?

R-Well, I were sweeping his looms, 144 looms. He worked hard you know. They did work hard, 144 looms he had and fairly heavy sorts so you didn’t get much length on a beam so they were coming out regular you know. But sweepers worked very hard. A sweeper in them days, a weaver downed a warp and t’sweeper went and cut it out and swept the loom and oiled it and then t’tackler fetched a new warp.

So you didn’t work like we work here, with them going round and sweeping under looms while they were running and the warps in?

R-Oh yes, that as well, this was an extra.

So the warp come out and you swept the loom and oiled it.

R-And cut it out. Well, tacklers cut ‘em out now.

Aye, and t’weaver herself cut the pieces out?

R-Oh aye.

You only cut it out when the warp were finished.

R-That’s right.

So when t’tackler went to it it were an empty loom , clean and swept?

R-That’s right. T’beam would be in the broad alley ready to be carried out. I think I were telling you that this Walter Broughton had a hernia. And he were off work you see. When he came back he asked me would I take these empty beams upstairs for one and six a week. So I said yes, one and six were one and six but I didn’t realise what I were taking on. I’d been at it one or two weeks and I got this mysterious lump. Bugger me, I had a bloody hernia! Hospital, and I had this hernia repaired and back at work. And I told Broughton what he could do with his one and six a week. Aye.

You say these were fairly heavy sorts coming out quick, [The thicker the warp thread, the less length on a beam and the shorter the time it was in the loom.] A tackler with a 144 loom set, how many warps would he gait in a week?

R-Oh, he’d average, Friday used to be a big day for downing [Downing is the term for finishing weaving a warp.] but I think he’d average about thirty a week, knocking on that way. Then they worked Saturday mornings as well you know. Yes, they worked hard. Thirty a week, they’d be lasting….

R-Three week happen.

Aye well, at that they’d be lasting over a month wouldn’t they, 144?

R-Thirty a week, four threes is…. Oh they didn’t last that long, They might have lasted a month. Four thirties is 120.

So thirty would be a fairly light week at that, aye.

R-Aye it would. Oh they might have put more than that in.

Aye, I know Jim [Jim Pollard, weaving manager at Bancroft] was saying the other day that he’s seen the down in this shed, when they had 1100 looms in, be four or five hundred warps a week.

R-I can believe it, aye.

Yes, if they were on heavy sorts.

R-Because all t’looms were crowded in you know. They weren’t like they are now, respaced to a point. So they’d only have little beams, they wouldn’t pile them up. So maybe they’d last a fortnight, three weeks happen.

Back at Bancroft now. When you were weaving here there were 1100 looms in. So that means these looms ‘ud be right up to the wall?

R-Oh every corner, every corner. I’ve seen lumps chiselled out of the wall so they could get an extra loom in. So t’box and t’bolt were like running in the wall, oh aye, they were crowded in. And then they used to carry warps in on their shoulders, tacklers, aye.

Was that because there wasn’t enough room for the truck?

R-Aye, that’s it, no room for the truck. And every mill were alike because I worked in four mills and I must have been in all the mills.

When you were weaving did you have any contact with the office, management or anything like that?

R-No, I think they called the manager Tom Rigg. I seem to remember when I’d been running two looms, there used to be a warehouse lad you know. And when I took a piece in I’d be like apprehensive, worried in case I’d missed owt and I saw this warehouse lad coming down where I were working and I thought, Where the hell is he going you know. He were coming for Ernest, You’re wanted in the warehouse! Oh I thought, disaster has struck at last. Anyway, he were very nice about it. I had too many ends in a heald and when this piece were finished it had bursted and he explained to me why this had happened. Now he says, Go back to your looms and make sure you don’t do it again.

What do you mean when you say that, too many ends in a heald?

R-In’t selvedge, it were in t’selvedge. You were only meant to have two and I must have had about ten in. Well it made like a thick selvedge and seemingly the cloth went through presses and t’pressure bursted this selvedge and I were fetched up.

What were they weaving here in those days Ernie, what sorts, what was it going for?

R-Well I don’t know, I weren’t really into it, I mean it’d be going to India to cover t’nigger’s balls up I suppose, there wasn’t much weaving there then was there?

No, I shouldn’t think so.

R-We used to weave, at Blackburn Holden’s, we used to weave turbans. We knew they were turbans like because they used to have a fancy gold heading in. You got a copper extra for weaving them in, on a little gold bobbin.

You got a little shuttle?

R-That’s right, wi’t peg bent and it fit on like that and you had so many picks of gold and so many picks of white and so many picks of gold and it made a pattern.

Aye I’ve seen one of them shuttles. And that was for stuff like turbans?

R-That’s it, aye.

And did you do that right through the piece?

R-Oh aye, right the way through it.

So that’d mean changing….

R-Well, about every five yards you put these headings in and you got an extra copper for that.

And all the weavers then, working on the two and four loom system, they were carrying their own weft?

R-Oh aye.

And where were they carrying it from?

R-From out o’t warehouse into the mill, to t’looms.

Were they winding here then?

R-Yes, they were winding but they weren’t winding weft, they used to make their own beams to go into the tape.

So there weren’t any rewound weft at all?

R-No, I never saw any.

It’d all be cop weft, it would be coming straight off the mule? Paste bottoms and paper bottoms.

R-Well, if you got paper bottoms that were all right that were. It were a good do but mostly there were no bottoms, you’d just to find the hole best way you could.

That’s it, stabbed cops, yes. And so really, the weaver was nailed down from all sides.

R-Oh aye, they were, they were nailed down all right.

What were the condition of the warps coming down and going into the looms then? When I say the condition of the warps, I mean healds and reeds. Was it fairly common for there to be a fault in the warp when it came down to the loom?

R-Oh no. They used to be all right. I mean, they wanted the looms running. There were odd times when you got healds broke but not very often. I mean, if that loom were stopped t’boss wasn’t making any profit.

So healds and reeds would be in better condition than they are now?

R-Oh aye, they were. But we’re talking about Bancroft now, this bloody place has been running downhill for years. That’s it, yes. We’re talking about Bancroft at this moment. But in these days we’re talking about, when cotton weaving were at it’s highest ever I suppose, stuff ‘ud be fairly cheap, reeds and healds, ‘cause labour ‘ud be cheap. So everything ‘ud be like, good quality.

And what do you think of the way they come down now?

R-Oh, they’re disgraceful now. In them days, in t’1930’s, oh there was always somebody ready to jump into t’job you see so they were …. I think workers really, must have been more conscientious from fear. I mean, nobody cares now. I’m not saying they don’t make decent cloth, they do up to a point, but not like it were then. And then, same as comparing now with then, now they have ten looms running at t’same speed and then they had four looms, a very good weaver’d have five, six wi’ a tenter. So take this type of textiles, it’s just, well, dying. It’s been dying since about twenty years ago when that first government scheme came out, to shut down.

So, they are carrying their own weft, there wouldn’t be any sweepers here either?

R-No, t’weaver used to sweep. Well, learners ‘ud sweep for’t weaver that they were learning with and she might give you a tanner if you were lucky. I think I used to get twopence, she were a skinny bugger were me aunt Louise.

How often in a day would they sweep their alleys out?

R-Before every break. That’d be half an hour at breakfast time, half an hour at dinner and just afore they went home at night.

Was it stipulated that they do it at that time or did they just do it then.

R-Well, it’d be an unwritten law.

That’s it. So what would happen if somebody say, would anyone go round say after t’shop had shut and find someone hadn’t swept their alley just to their satisfaction, would that ever happen to your knowledge?

R-Not to my knowledge. But if it did happen and one of t’bosses went round, then you can reckon they’d be told about it.

Something you said the other day about going out and laiking football in t’yard with a rag ball.

R-Dinnertime, yes.

Dinnertime, aye, that’s it. You said when t’engine started you came in and ‘knockers on on’, what did you mean by that?

R-Well, to start a loom from a belt, you have a knocker on on’t loom. We called them ‘knockers on’ and they’re still knockers on. And you’d be stood there, t’shuttles shoved up into t’box and as soon as the engine started and you got a bit of speed up, two at once on, every pick counted you see. You could, most pieces you could weave two a week, within a yard or two. They had it worked out to a fine art to get the last drop of blood out of the bloody workers.

So you’d say that the size of the warp were governed so that, so that the weaver knew that if they really got stuck into them, they could get that last piece off that week, for making up time on a Friday.

R-That’s true, They were…..

So if a piece had been slightly longer?

R-That’s right, you’d had it then.

And a hundred yard were just about right here?

R-It ‘ud take you 48 hour to weave two hundred yards, they were all one hundred yard pieces in them days. And you could weave two.

So if you had a really good week and everything going well, I mean of course you’d never get them I know, but if you did, off your loom, it would theoretically be possible to get eight pieces off four looms.

R-Oh aye, aye.

Would you say that was ever done?

R-Oh aye, done regularly. Oh it’s amazing how some of these weavers could move, they were like flashes of lightning, they never went out to pee, only when t’mill stopped. In fact I’ve heard Roy Wellock talk about a bloke, not long since, that used to pee in a Nuttall’s Mints tin, he wouldn’t go out.

Aye, at the loom instead of going out. I can understand that.

R-Every second counted. They’d fill up with weft afore they started in a morning and there’d be very few people knocking about. I know if you wanted a smoke you had to go to the toilet and rattle the chain and blow t’smoke down th’hoil. Frightened to death of someone coming in, with authority. Unbelievable isn’t it. And yet they were happy somehow. I mean, ‘nobody like the boss, oh a wonderful man, marvellous man’. They used to speak very highly of him and I used to think and ponder you know. I thought, There’s something bloody wrong, he’s driving up and down wi’ a big fancy motor car, living in a big house and here’s me wi’ me britches arse out! There must be sommat wrong. That’s why we started listening to Jimmy Rushton and his Communism and getting a bit interested in politics. What did they call that first member of Parliament, Labour man, Hardie or something?

Kier Hardie.

R-Kier Hardie, yes. Well, I used to read the papers and get a bit interested in politics and I realised what were going on. The same people were exploiting the British working man that were exploiting the bloody niggers when they were getting niggers from Africa to America, just exactly the same class of people. Only we didn’t realise. That’s one thing, they didn’t drag you away from home and country but we were bloody slaves without a doubt. Worse than slaves really, they did get fed regularly and clothed, we didn’t. There were some bloody poverty in them days you know, real poverty. Mining districts were exactly the same, working hard for nothing and they were risking their necks.

You mention risking their necks, that brings another thing up. Now, 1100 looms all shoved in right up to the wall. How about accidents Ernie?

R-Well, there were a lot of minor accidents, but I never, oh, there were a young woman killed up here you know [Bancroft] with a fire door falling on her. But that must have been a million to one chance.

Did that happen while you were here? I’ve heard about that, this bottom fire door.

R-Well, it might have done. And then there were one or two tacklers went round the shafting at different mills. I’ve never known it in my experience but they did used to talk about it.

That would be putting belts up while the engine was running?

R-Aye. One bloke went round t’shaft at Bouncer mill and a fortnight later they found his clog, with a foot in it, smashed to smithereens.

Aye he would be. Th’engine wouldn’t stop.

R-And then there were a bloke got caught in the hoist, he were killed. That were at, what do you call that mill, past Bankfield?

Coates.

R-Coates, aye. There must have been a few accidents.

Can you remember anything ever stopping the mill while you were here? While you were here at Bancroft for them two years, can you ever remember the engine stopping for owt. Or industrial trouble, anything like that. Did th’engine ever stop when it shouldn’t have done?

No, no, we used to wish it would but it never did.

Aye, clockwork. Who were running the engine then in 1930, do you remember?

R-I think it were a feller called Grace, Billy Grace’s father. You daren’t come in here you know, [the engine house] you’d have been hung drawn and quartered.

That’d be him that put that notice on the wall, it’s nearly gone now, ‘Silence is Golden.’

R-Is that what he says? Well, it is golden.

Aye, Silence is Golden. Aye, that’s right, Martin Grace, he did run it about then. We’ve already been on about the holidays. There were just a week for t’Feast then weren’t there? Aye, and they’d have a holiday club then?

R-Oh aye, nearly certain but I were never in one.

How were you paid then Ernest? When I say how were you paid, tell me about pay in the mill, not how much but nowadays somebody fetches your packet round but how did you get paid then?

R-Well, t’tackler used to come round with a tray wi’ little tins on and your wage were in that tin and a little wage ticket and t’loom numbers. Here, everybody had a loom number, I forget what my loom number were but I wouldn’t be Mr Roberts, I’d be number 123, bloody dead loss he is, get him out. And it’s only lately we’ve dumped them you know, well, happen four or five years ago, that’s all. We used to go round with the trays with the wages in so the bloody nosey tackler could see what wage we were earning, that’d be part of the plan. And then once they got this wooden tray and all the little tins that were it, finished, no expense, no wage packet to buy.

And even in those days, you’d be paid in paper money?

R-Oh aye, if you were lucky.

If you’d got enough pay to get a pound, that’s it, aye. Well, there were half bars then weren’t there, there were ten bobs?

R-Oh of course, there were ten bob notes then, aye, you’d have a ten bob note surely, even off two looms. Aye, what colour were they, pink?

Well, they varied didn’t they. They were pink at first and then they were brown, well, a red colour.

R-I know I saved up one year when I were working at Pickles, working regular, no short time. I saved twelve ten bob notes and went to Blackpool for a week. I lived like a bloody millionaire but it took me twelve months to save it. I must have been stopping in every week. It makes a nice little wad, twelve ten bob notes.

When you say you lived like a millionaire Ernie, what would living like a millionaire, what would you describe in them days, well, let’s split it up properly, you said first that you were a ‘weekend millionaire’. Now, in 1934, in Barlick, what would a weekend millionaire do? What made him into a weekend millionaire.

R-Well, if I were going to be a weekend millionaire I’d go to Greenwoods first and buy meself a front for one and ninepence, a nice piece of striped cloth wi’ a collar that went over your tattered shirt you see. And then you’d put your best tie on, and t’best clobber you had and set off at Saturday night ‘cause the weekend didn’t start while Saturday night then. Instead of having one bottle of OBJ you’d have happen four. [OBJ was a bottle brown ale brewed by Dutton’s at Blackburn. It stood for Oh Be Joyful.] Then up to the dance and then if it were a right good jollification you’d treat your girl to a cup of tea and a bun.

Which dance were that?

R-There were four dance halls in Barlick then, there were the Queen’s Hall, Majestic, Albert Hall and Co-op hall.

Now then I know where the Majestic is. Queen’s Hall, where were that?

R-Where the Conservative Club is now. Albert Hall were where the National Assistance is now.

Oh that’s under the Liberal Club.

R-That’s it, aye. Co-op Hall were over the railway crossings. [On Cooperative Street. In 2001 it is the Mayfair School of Dancing.] That building is still there. It’s a , what do you call that game where you knock a ball up against a wall?

Squash?

R-Aye, squash court. It’s where Billy Grace has his squash court.

I didn’t think there’d be a squash court in Barlick, is that right?

R-Of course it is. I’ve no intention of going but yes, there is one.

Aye, it shows, I’m living in the town and I don’t know what’s going on. I tell you, I’ve got that mixed up with what was going on in 1930 I don’t know what’s going on now! I might be missing out on sommat! So, that’s a weekend millionaire. What would you do in Blackpool living like a millionaire?

R-Now, nearly every week there were a trip to Blackpool from Barnoldswick. Half a crown return and including a ticket into the Winter Garden.

When you say trip, that’d be a day trip?

R-Aye, day trip, get into Blackpool about seven or eight o’clock, happen a bit earlier.

This ‘ud be by rail?

R-Aye, it were about half a crown return and a ticket to get into the Winter Gardens. [Half a crown is two shillings and sixpence. Twelve and a half new pence] Leave about half past eleven, midnight. We used to do that sometimes.

How about a week in Blackpool, you know, annual holidays, Feast?

R-Well, I only remember having that one week when I had twelve ten bobs. But we used to go there every year of course. It used to be a red letter day that Saturday when the Feast started. We’d be running round looking for people with cases and carry ‘em to the station. Get a bob. Oh aye, people used to set off but they’d led a very narrow life for a year for a week in Blackpool.

Can you ever remember anyone taking their own food with them?

R-Oh aye, that were, most of ‘em would do that. I told you when I was young and the whole family went to Blackpool me mother went and four kids.

That’s it I remember you telling me about that.

R-All t’food in a tin box. [The common expression for this practice was lodging 'bed and cruet'.]

How about sea bathing, when you got there did anybody go in the sea?

R-No, I doubt it. Well, people would be in the sea but I never did. I don’t know if the weather were any different than it is now but the last time I went in the sea were at Fleetwood. I wouldn’t say that was a long time since, about ten years since and it’s filthy you know, t’sea at Blackpool. Bloody hell. French letters and turds and God knows what floating about. I thought bugger this, so I went to shore and that were it.

I’ll tell you a little tale bout that. We once went to Wallasey and we had a reight grand day, went swimming you know and all t’rest of it. And about four or five years later, me working life had started like, and I were at Birkenhead with a wagon and I found out that if you worked for the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board and you fell in the river or were partly immersed in water you’d got to go and have a tetanus injection.

R-Oh, it were that bad?

It was so bad. And if you didn’t go, you couldn’t claim. The only way you could claim for anything you had to go for that tetanus injection. They said it was the slaughterhouses on the river. They said the water was loaded with tetanus and I thought at the time, there was us, swimming at Wallasey and it’s the same water.

R-Aye, it is, it is.

Anyway, we’re building up a fairly grim picture of weaving at Bancroft in the early 30’s.

R-Well, it wouldn’t be just Bancroft, it’d be everywhere.

Oh yes, but as I said, just at the moment we’re talking about Bancroft. Now Bancroft’s always had a reputation of being on the verge of shutting down. Was it the same then?

R-Oh no, it’s only since the war. How long is it since the war finished? Thirty three years, they’ve been shutting down now for thirty three years.

Yes, and in those days would you say that as mill owners go, the Nutters used to look after the mill, you know, that they’d keep up with stuff?

R-Well, I don’t suppose I were very observant then. I doubt it. They built it and as long as it stood up and everything went on going that’d be it. I never remember anybody being employed as a maintenance man, it’d be an extra wage you know.

In those days Ernie, when the mills were working hard, how much smoke did they make? Did they run fairly smokeless?

R-Oh no! Smoke? Used to come out in clouds. As you went up Brown Hill during the working week you had to get up high to make the town out. There were a lot of chimneys you know and they were all going full blast, all the tapes running, they wanted a lot of steam and I don’t suppose they had these modern methods of smoke control.

Well, they did but in the old days there used to be a saying, ‘You can’t make steam without smoke.’ Actually it just isn’t true, but in those days….. The coal consumption figures for some of those old mills must have been fantastic, coal were that cheap.

R-Oh well, it’d be cheap in comparison, like everything else.

Well, in 1890 and 1900, coal were eleven bob a ton. [55p.]

R-Incredible isn’t it. And they were getting it the hard way.

Yes, which makes it interesting for me when you mention the miners. Because you’re getting down to the roots of the system there, it was based on cheap, plentiful labour.

R-Oh it were, aye, it were. It were either work or you didn’t survive because you couldn’t really live on relief, whatever it were in those days.

When you say ‘you worked or you didn’t survive’, I find it very difficult to ask this question in a way that won’t bias you. Would you say it was possible then to die of hunger?

R- I honestly think so. I mean in a town like Barnoldswick, in the middle of an agricultural area, bags of food everywhere and there were millions of rabbits, I’ve told you before. If you were old, I’ll bet there were lots of old folk died of hunger and Hypothermia. Well, they’d just say then that they were found dead, there’d be no mention of hypothermia. There must have been, I mean, how can a human being survive on ten bob a week [the Old Age Pension] With rent to pay and coal to buy and food, even in them days they couldn’t do it. They must have been on the verge of starvation all the time.

What year did your mother die?

R-73 or 74.

What age was she when she died?

R-73 or 74.

So really you can say that the last twenty years of your mother’s life in many ways would be the happiest years of her life?

R-Oh they must have been, they must have been.

Well, that really is the indictment isn’t it?

R-Aye, how things have improved over the years.

But I mean, that’s the terrible thing about it. When they were young and fit and able to really enjoy themselves it was left until……

R-Till she were knocking on, before she had a bit of ease.

Aye, she’d be about 55 before she got what you would call an easy sort of life, like after the war.

R-Aye, yes.


SCG/05 July 2001
6597 words



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/6

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 26TH OF JULY 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT SHED, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


Now then, it’s about 1932 now and you’ve moved down to Calf Hall.

R. Aye, I’ll be sixteen then.

That’s right. Now then, you went down to Calf Hall and what were you doing there?

R. Well, weaving but it were like a bad venture. They must have bought some cheap yarn and the place were full up, four hundred and odd looms running and they wouldn’t go. That’s when I had one piece off at four shilling and took two and ninepence home for a wage.

When you say ‘they wouldn’t go’, do you mean that the warps were that bad that they wouldn’t weave?

R. They were that bad they wouldn’t weave.

So what did they do at t’finish?

R. Well, when I say they wouldn’t weave, they wouldn’t weave so far without faults you know, without breakages. What did they do? Well, they did a funny thing, it must have been some kind of compensation, but they paid this compensation on money earned, so if you earned a pound they might give you five bob, but them people with the worst warps in, like me wi’ four bob, what would I get? I wouldn’t get much would I?

So really it were’t wrong way round, people with the worst warps were getting the least compo.

R. Aye, but anyway, eventually all these bad warps wove out and we got some better warps in. Things went on alright for a year maybe.

Which firm were that?

R. That were Blackburn Holden’s at Calf Hall.

That’ll be his lads that have Bendem now won’t it?

R. It were, they were Blackburn Holden and ?, yes, Blackburn Holden’s lads. [Blackie Holden had the garage next to the auction at Gisburn and lived in Horton in the 1960s.] But this Blackburn Holden I’m talking about were Blackburn Holden’s father and I think they eventually closed that mill at Calf Hall and went to Moss Shed and they went on for years and years there, manufacturing.

When they shifted, did they take their looms with them?

R. They would do, aye.

Can you remember seeing looms shifted round Barlick?

R. Oh aye. It used to be a regular occurrence to see looms being shifted.

Who shifted ‘em?

R. Well, the chap I remember seeing shifting ‘em was called Crabtree. I never saw any being broken up.

Was he a Barlicker, Crabtree?

R. Aye, scrap iron merchant he were and moving stuff about.

Where did he hang out?

R. He had a wood hut. What did they call that street. To say I’ve lived here all my life I only know about three streets. No, I don’t know the name of the street but he had a big wood hut anyway. You know, railway bridge.

Aye, like going down to Jims, down there.

R. That’s right, down there, it isn’t there now.

Aye, at the end of Essex Street.

R. That’s it, Essex Street, aye. Yes, Crabtree, that’s it yes. I’ll tell you what he did have, he used to have a rope thrown over his hut with an old wringing machine hanging on it. He must have been a bit, he’d be in the same street as us, I mean t’manufacturers ‘ud want their looms shifting for twopence a time, no wonder his hut were like that. An old fashioned wringing machine hanging on a rope, ‘cause one of me mates cut t’rope one time.

While you were down at Calf Hall was there anything striking down there? Was there anything different at Calf Hall than there were at Bancroft?

R. Oh no, it were just the same. Oh, I think one of the tacklers was bothering with one of his weavers one time. That were like a nine days wonder. They called him Tommy Harper, he were sacked right off t’stick end. They did say he were caught making love to a woman behind some pieces and Edward Holden, there were Edward and Blackburn Holden, Edward Holden came round these pieces and he must have fallen over ‘em or sommat. Anyway, Tommy were sacked. Aye, he were all right and all. Tommy Harper were what you’d call a nice tackler. Some of the tales would have made you laugh. There were a loom on fire, we used to get looms on fire now and again you know. Tommy Harper came running in with a bucket of water and he dashed round the corner where I were weaving and he slipped. Turned about four or five bloody somersaults and by the time he pulled himself together the fire were out. It wouldn’t be so long after when he got sacked.

Well of course, we’ve had looms on fire here.

R. Oh aye.

What’s the usual cause of a loom setting on fire?

R. Oh well, ninety nine times out of a hundred it’s , you know the little bowls under the tappet? They get jammed with muck and like it’s friction and they set on fire.

Aye, with the dawn underneath.

R. I remember a mysterious fire at Widdups, at another place I worked, that were at Moss Shed but this is after the war.. There were this fire and it were a mystery. I mean, if there were a loom on fire there were a hot part you see, red hot. But there were no hot parts on this loom. Bloke called Clifton Bird were t’weaver, he were like a friend of mine, I were tackling at the time and it were my loom so it was my duty to find out what caused this fire. I looked all over, nothing. It were a week or two after that Clifton told me he had put his foot on a match. He smoked a pipe and he used to go to the toilet with his pipe and one or two odd matches in his pocket. One fell out as he were walking in and he stepped on it and that was it, on fire. But they wanted an explanation in’t office, what started this fire and Harry Widdup, one of the bosses said to me, “What caused that fire? and I said I didn’t know. I said there were nothing stuck, nothing hot, couldn’t find owt. It’d be t’rocking rail he says. I says “Rocking rails can’t cause a fire”. It were t’rocking rail he says and I said it weren’t. He says, Insurance, it’d be t’rocking rail”. I said That’s right, it were t’rocking rail. I don’t think he’d ever find out it were Clifton had stood on a match but he told me anyway after and we had a good laugh about it.

You were on about there being a flood while you were at Calf Hall.

R. Oh aye, there were a flood, aye. [July 12th 1932] Beck runs under the mill at Calf Hall and I forget what time of day it was but t’mill were stopped and there were a hell of a thunderstorm and t’rain were pelting down and t’water started coming up through the flags [in the weaving shed]. This culvert had filled up. Oh it were a real flood, it bashed the wall in at t’top end and looms were piled up on top of each other. We came out and it were a fairly high kerb [in the road]. Them that had got across, they had a rope across so that women could cross over. One bloke, what did they call him? Mole I think, he were a weaver, he stepped off the kerb and he were washed away. Aye, he were washed right down the side of the mill on to some dry land at the bottom of Calf Hall Lane. I can see him now, his head would come up and then his feet’d come up and he were spinning along. It’d be happen a couple of feet deep gushing at terrific speed you know. It did tickle me that day.

Clough copped it as well

R. Oh, didn’t Clough cop it. They had walls washed in and looms on top of each other. Aye, they were out, they had fun that day. So the Clough ‘ud cop it and there were a market there in them days you know [Butts] all t’stalls were washed up, piled on top of each other. It’s a wonder there were nobody drowned, I don’t think there were.

Aye, it hit Bancroft and all. There is a photograph somewhere, I’ve see it, I’m trying to get hold of it. It burst all the wall of the dam out, filled it up and burst all the wall.

R. Yes it would do. There were holes on Occupation Road eight and ten feet deep, washed out down to the solid rock. There were some water come down that day. Still, it were all entertainment, it didn’t cost me owt, that were the day. Well, I think we’d be out of work wouldn’t we come to think of it?

Aye, would you get paid for that day?

R. Eh I doubt it. I don’t think there’d be any chance at all of getting paid.

How about if you had an accident in them days. How about compensation? There’d be Workman’s Compensation?

R. Oh there must have been. I’ve never heard of anybody getting any compensation. There were nothing really and it isn’t that long ago is it. Wait a minute, I do know someone that got compensation but he weren’t injured in the mill. They were building the sewerage and he got his leg smashed with a bogey and he got a few hundred quid compensation but he were crippled for the rest of his life.

That’s interesting, that’s how these things spark up. Would you ever see a
anybody that was disabled working?

R. Oh aye, there used to be a butcher called Iron Billy, he had a club foot.

Yes, but he’d be working for himself wouldn’t he?

R. No, he were working for’t butchers. I think they got three shillings and sixpence for killing a cow and dressing it.

Oh I see, you mean at the slaughter house?

R. Aye, at the slaughter house. Oh I knew lots of cripples in mills, especially upstairs, looming and twisting. Me uncle Walter were a cripple, instead of being bow legged like me he were bow legged inside, like knocky kneed way. Now that’s a funny thing. I never knew him when he were a tall smart young man. May be he had Infantile Paralysis but he went to bed poorly and he got up like that, a cripple. And the way he walked he were only about four feet [tall].

Aye. So if anybody, it didn’t matter if somebody was lame or crippled, so long as they could do a job they could get a job.

R. Oh aye, that kind of work certainly. There were a bloke, Minks they called him, he had a short leg, he used to walk with a crutch and Katie Tweedie, she had an iron on her foot, she were a weaver.

I’ll tell you something you don’t see very often nowadays, people with hunch backs, and yet I can remember seeing quite a few when I was younger. Can you ever remember seeing people hunch backed in Barlick?

R. Oh, it must have been a familiar sight. I’ve seen lots of hunch backs.

How many have you seen just lately?

R. I haven’t seen any lately.

No, there’s only one lass in Barlick I know of that’s badly hunched.

R. Oh, hasn’t she a bonny face. I’ve seen that lass, lovely girl!

Oh she is, she’s a grand lass. She’s Dan Smith’s daughter and she won’t give up you know, she still goes dancing.

R. Oh I don’t blame her, why should she give it up? Aye, she does right.

I have every admiration for that lass.

R. I have. Aye, well it’s a matter of luck isn’t it. Well, bad luck in her case.

Well, she’ll never give up you know. I mean she’s terribly deformed. I was just thinking you know, it used to be quite regular to see a fellow with a Charlie and it was ‘Look, he’s got a Charlie on his back’.

R. They always said they got a Charlie on the back with being naughty.

In what way?

R. Well, sex way. Same as a couple deeply in love, she’d been kissing his willy [euphemism for penis] and these fellows with Charlies on their backs, t’woman they have been with got carried away and instead of sucking, they blew. But that can’t be true.

No I don’t think it is, it doesn’t send you blind either!

R. You’d better cross that off.

Oh no Ernie, it comes under folklore.

R. Oh does it. Oh that’s good that is, folklore.

Funny thing about that, I have a mate, Daniel Meadows, public schoolboy and that and I once asked him ‘How about sex education at public school Daniel?’ You know, he was really well educated. Oh yes he said. We did have some. One day a master got us all lined up and told us that masturbating in railway carriages is not the thing to do. He said that was it, that was our sex education!

R. Like me and tadpoles.

Aye, the tadpoles!

R. But I tell you what, you don’t see many deformities do you really. But I’m always sympathetic, anyone that’s deformed in any way, I feel sorry for ‘em and if I can help ‘em in any way I will do ‘cause there used to be an old fellow in Barlick, I don’t whether you ever saw him, but he had a big lump hanging on his neck, under his chin, and a big lump. He used to go round wi’ a walking stick wi’ a pin at the bottom of it collecting fag ends. I were coming over Long Ing Bridge, not Long Ing Bridge, Bankfield bridge, and he were leaning on the bridge wi’ this lump hanging down and I looked at him and I thought ‘Poor old fellow’ and he looked at me and he got hold of this lump and he said ‘Can’t tha get past?’ Talk about being bloody upset, it reight upset me, that fellow. I thought to myself ‘The rotten sod’. I were hoping he’d get another bloody lump.

So, let’s get back to Calf Hall. So Calf Hall’s had a flood.

R. Aye.

How long did it take them to….

R. I think that might have been kaput at Calf Hall. I don’t remember working theer after. Might have done, if it were it weren’t long before I moved on, out of work. It might have been the flood that put me out of work.

So you’re out of work then.

R. Well, I weren’t out of work so long, I wouldn’t be out of work so long.

No, but did you actually go on the dole?

R. Sixteen? Aye I would do, you got a few shilling a week you know.

Is this what you were telling me about earlier on, little Hitler behind the counter? Or was that later?

R. Oh no, well, in them days there used to be long queues at t’dole you know. When I say long queues, I mean long queues.

When you were working at Bancroft say and Calf Hall, were there queues at t’dole?

R. Oh there would be, nearly certain.

Yes, you say there would be but can you actually remember seeing them? I mean actually ’28 and ’30, I mean they were terrible years weren’t they?

R. Aye they would be but as a boy, I mean a boy, he doesn’t realise does he?

Aye, that’s it.

R. And with me not having any father, there were no man coming in the house and impressing on the kids like that he were out of work, on the dole. So, like it didn’t make any impact on me.

Can you remember when you first went to the dole? Can you remember anything about it?

R. No, not really. I know they were very militant behind the counter, these government officials, because one bloke got jail for giving one a bloody good hiding.

What, one of the fellows what were on the dole?

R. Yes, a bloke called Harry Bell. He went to sign on and this clerk were nasty with him and he dragged him across the counter, gave him a good hiding and got a month in gaol.

Aye well, he’d be nearly as well off in gaol as he would be on the dole.

R. Well, more than likely. But I bet if we were comparing gaols then and gaols now we’d have a shock wouldn’t we.

Aye, that’d be interesting wouldn’t it. You’ve not been in gaol have you?

R. No, I don’t think I’ve ever deserved gaol.

No, pity! Anyway, you’re out of work for a bit. What were’t next job after you’d been out of work?

R. Sweeping at Fernbank. But in the meantime we’d go down to t’golf field, caddying, tanner a round, nine holes for sixpence. Well, a good day you’d make a couple of bob.

That’s at Gill Brow?

R. Aye, Gill Brow. I remember carrying a bag at one time for Harry Widdup of all people and I must have had a few coppers in me pocket. He says to me, (funny how these things impress on your mind, all them years since. I remember it as if it were now.) he says ‘I wish you’d give up rattling those coppers!’ and I were carrying his bloody old golf bag! I thought you lousy swine! So what coppers I had I distributed about me person so they wouldn’t rattle. Eh, bloody marvellous isn’t it, what?

Putting him off his stroke!

R. Aye, putting him off his stroke.

How did you get in down at the golf club?

R. Well, you didn’t go in the club actually.

No, I meant how did you get in, caddying?

R. Well, you’d…. there were a wood hut in t’bottom and you used to go and sit in this wood hut and the green keeper used to come to the top and shout for two caddies, or whatever he needed. All these lads ‘ud sit in a row and when it came their turn, off they went and there were good uns and bad uns. Some’d give you a tip, an extra tanner. Other buggers, it took them all their time to give you the tanner you were entitled to. You’d caddy all afternoon at Saturday and sometimes they’d say ‘I want you after tea, go round t’back and get your tea,. Well, you’d get a sandwich and a cup of tea, you know, keep you going. Eh, me and Walter Whittaker, we did it for years, even when we were working we’d go down on a Saturday, make us two or three bob.

Aye, it ud be a quiet walk round, do you good.

R. Oh it did you good aye. Oh it were a great life. ‘I wish you’d give up rattling them coppers’, Oh you big, fat, red-faced swine. [Harry Widdup was a manufacturer]

And you went working for him didn’t you? [Moss Shed]

R. I did. But he didn’t remember the coppers, but I did.

Aye, that were a black mark were it then?

R. Aye it were, it were in the little book from that moment on.

Aye well, go on then, you’re out of work and then what? Your next job, loom sweeping at Fernbank. Now this would start , this ud be what, nineteen thirty three or four? Something like that?

R. Aye it would be, aye.

So this is actually when they were on the verge of bringing the More Looms System in?

R. That’s right.

And up to then there would never have been sweepers at Fernbank would there?

R. Oh I doubt it, I don’t think there would be, no. But there was, same as Holdens, they all had six looms there, I don’t know how that come about, it must have started then. But when I went to Cairns and Lang at Fernbank there were one bloke there wi’ eight looms, now that were unheard of. Anyway he had eight had this fellow, a bloke called Bolton, he used to chew twist and weft! I used to sweep for him and there were balls of twist and weft all over the place but I couldn’t say owt, I daren’t say owt. Cairns, the boss, used to have two sisters weaving there and I used to sweep for them. They were officious and full of ceremony, they even had me scraping the floor one time under their looms where they had been chucking the tea leaves and banana skins and all sorts of rubbish. I thought ‘You bloody old cows!’ Daren’t say owt, if I had I’d have been sacked and I were desperate see? I were frightened. But anyway, after that they give up with the sweepers and I got four looms and I were making two pound a week. Never made as much money in me life, I’d be seventeen or eighteen years old then. [1933/34]

You’d still be living at home then, in Manchester Road?

R. That’s right.

You weren’t married?

R. No.

And you’d be tipping your wage up were you? Or boarding or how?

R. No, I earned twenty seven shilling [take home pay] and I gave my mother a pound, I had seven bob left. I saved up one time for an Attaboy hat, seven and six they were at Atkinsons. [Attaboy was a make of felt trilby hat. 7/6 equals roughly 40 new pence.] Now they were with it! Anyway, I got one.

Aye, a trilby wi’ a snap brim.

R. That’s it. Saturday night I went up to t’dance, some swine pinched it! I’d have chopped their hands off if I could have found them! Eh, me Attaboy hat, I think that’s the only hat I’ve ever had in me life!

When you say that, you mean as opposed to a cap?

R. That’s right. Oh aye, I had an Attaboy hat, eh…. fashion in them days. [Ernie starts talking about trousers] they used to have wide slops at t’bottom. I got as pair off a cousin of mine at one time, 32 inch bottoms. Well, they were all right for me like, I were bow-legged and it disguised the fact you know. Aye, I liked ‘em. I don’t know what happened to ‘em eventually but I liked ‘em.

Aye, they’d be a good thing for the mill, plenty of cloth in ‘em!

R. Well they used to say, when t’trade were bad, I’ve heard the older blokes say ‘If they’d put an inch on t’bloody Chinamen’s shirts we’d all be working!’. Because you didn’t, in them days you didn’t know how many Chinamen there were, there must have been a lot. You can laugh about it now, eh!

So you’re sweeping and you get on to four looms….

R’ Aye, aye.

How long would you say you were weaving at Fernbank?

Oh, it’d be, well, they wove out. [I’ve been told that Ernie has got this wrong but this is what he said.] I must have been eighteen or nineteen happen. [1934/35]

When you say they wove out, did they weave out permanently or did they start again?

R. Well, I think this firm started again but at that moment, finish.

Short of orders, wove out.

R. Aye. Bottom must have dropped out of the market.

When they were weaving out like that, when there was nothing disastrous like a flood or a fire, what were the actual process of weaving out? How did you get to know and what happened. How did they actually weave out?

R. Oh I don’t think there were any official notice put out. There were just, you wove your warps out, there were none coming in so out you went. There were no redundancy money or owt like that, you were out of work.

How did they go on when they got down to the end and there were only happen about, well, how many looms did they have there?

R. There’d be 400 or 500.

So when they got down to fifty looms, what were they doing then. Did they consolidate?

R. Well no, there’d be the chosen few, relations I suppose and the tacklers would lift the warps and put them together.

[Here Ernie is talking about taking warps off the weavers who only had perhaps one and giving them to other weavers. If this was done on the basis of favouritism think what bad feeling this would generate.]

If they are weaving out, how would the tacklers go on then? They’d start losing warps out of their sets so did they consolidate? I mean, when they got down to 300 looms say, did they get rid of one of the tacklers or did the tacklers all stop on until the end?

R. Aye, no, tacklers finished you know. Since the war, when Widdups finished, I were the last tackler there and there were one loom left. What we used to do we used to keep moving warps about until there were one, just one loom left. Cecil Rhodes were’t manager. Cabbage they called him, everybody knows cabbage in Barlick. When I went to work in there I thought they called him Mr Cabbage, that were a little mistake I made. But I did find out why they called him cabbage eventually. There used to be a shop down Long Ing, Greenwood Hartley’s and when Cecil were little he lived down there and his mother told him to go to Greenwood Hartley’s for a cabbage. Cecil asked how big she wanted it and she said as big as your head. All his life he’s been Cabbage, I only saw him last week and I couldn’t get away, he’d had this operation, his prostate gland had been taken out. Aye, he were telling me all about this bloody operation, oh dear! Next time |I see him I’m going to dodge up street. He had tubes in him he said and something went wrong. He were a Methodist [tee-total] and he said first of all it were like wine and then it went like Guinness. I says ‘Oh, how the hell dosta know about all these drinks, th’art a Methodist!’ Anyway, he survived, he’s still going. We got down to one loom at Widdups and I went for him. Now he’d worked there all his life and he were a manager. Well, he were t’chief bullet firer, put it that way. Widdup made the bullets and he fired ‘em. Anyway, one loom, I went out for him, it were weaving t’last few inches of cloth. I said ‘There you are Cecil, put that shuttle in and set that loom on and you’re weaving the last cloth for Widdups’. I’ve never seen a chap so upset in me life, crying he were, he were bloody heart-broken. His wife told me, and this was afore this happened, that Cecil once put in for a rise and went in front of the tribunal, there were four or five of them brothers, and they gave him an extra shilling a week and told him never to come again.

Them were the days!

R. He’d been a bloody slave for them and yet he were heart-broken to think that the shop were closing down.

So Fernbank, Cairns and Langs, they’ve woven out?

R. That’s right.

You’re out of work again.

R. Out of work again, aye. What do they say about ups and downs? If you don’t have any downs in life you don’t appreciate the ups! It were all ups and downs in them days!

Well, now then, you’re having another down, you’ve woven out at Cairns and Langs, what happened then?

R. Well, I went standing for work at Pickles’s at t’Bouncer. They were always a good shop to work at but just how could I get in? I had no influence, nobody to speak for me, it’s who you knew. So I’m standing there like cheese at fourpence every morning.

In the warehouse?

R. In’t warehouse. And t’manager would come and shout ‘All up!’ so you’d bugger off then. Many a morning I’d stand on this bridge [Long Ing canal bridge]and after it were all up and they were all gone, there were tacklers coming out o’t door and knocking on doors round and about. See, the favoured few. Silly bugger me there, wi’ me bicycle on tick and wondering which way to turn. But luckily, Alf Peckover come along and I started work at Pickles and I never looked behind me since that morning.

Since you went to Long Ing working for Pickles’s?

R. Aye, working regular, not much money but regular.

So you went to Pickles, how many looms did you have?

R. I were sweeping. Hundred and forty four looms.

They must have been going on to More Looms as well.

R. Well, they weren’t then there were four or five looms then when I were there.

An yet they had sweepers on.

R. Aye.

Now that’s interesting, that’s the first time I’ve heard of anyone having sweepers on when they weren’t on More Looms. Did they have anything else done for them at Pickles like weft carrying or anything like that?

R. No, things were just the same there, weavers pulling pieces off, plaiting them on’t loom and taking ‘em into the warehouse and they fetched their own weft.

Aye, but they had sweepers on. How many sweepers were there?

R. Four.

Which firm were you working for there at Long Ing?

R. Well it were S Pickles and Son.

So at Long Ing, this would be about 1934 wouldn’t it?

R. There were S Pickles and Son in’t top shop, and then there were Midgeley’s and then there were what they called New Road Manufacturing Company and then in the bottom shop there were Aldersley’s.

Aye, so there would be four tenants in Long Ing and you were working for Stephen Pickles and son, that’s it. How long were you sweeping there before you went on to the looms?

R. I never did weave there only afternoons and Saturday mornings. I were a sweeper there until coming into th’army at 23 year old. So I were there from 19 years until 23 and then I went into the army. [1934/35 until 1939]

And that of course was the beginning of WW2. Had you met your wife then?

R. I met her there, at Pickles’s.

When did you actually get married?

R. Well, she were only 15 so we went on a bit. When I actually got married the war had started. I were married on 17th February 1940, same day as I registered. The idea was that to get married and then she could get the allowance you know. But how much it were; she didn’t save up by the way! Anyway we were married on 17th February 1940m and I went in the army on 9th May 1940. So, like, I were married in February, March, April and then, by 9th May, I were away.

What were your wife doing down at Pickles?

R. She were weaving.

How many looms?

R. Four looms.

Well, you joined the army, Second World War has started. Tell me about getting your calling-up papers. First of all, you’re working at Pickles, what inkling did you get that things were not as they should be in western Europe?

R. Well, we knew about Hitler and what were going on like, a lot of unrest in Europe, persecuting the Jews and keep pinching little countries, what were it? Rhineland and, what do they call it, Saar?

Rhineland, Saar, Sudetenland, that’s it.

R. But I didn’t realise it, well, I did, I must have realised it because Hore Belisha, he were the war minister, he said “You young men, at say eighteen years old, join the Territorial Army and I won’t call you up”. My younger brother Wilson and his mates joined the Terriers and I warned ‘em, don’t bleeding join the Terriers because there’s certainly going to be a war. Who the hell wants to leave home under any consideration? Well, it eventually happened and do you know, 9th of September were a Sunday when war were declared and me and me brother got an old motor bike, a Douglas belt drive, and we went to join up! Isn’t that bloody queer! I mean I didn’t want to leave home, but luckily the recruiting offices weren’t open. We went to Burnley and Accrington and they were both shut. So I said to Fred, Come on, let’s bugger off and go home. So we did do and we wait for us papers but it weren’t long before they came. I don’t know exactly when they came but they came and I had to report to Blackburn for a medical. I were married then, living with me mother up Castle View, me and me wife and th’old girl.

Oh, did you live on Castle View?

R. Aye, they’re knocked down now them houses.

Oh, you mean the opposite side from Castle View. Castle View’s on the side next to the Greyhound.

R. You know, you’re walking on, you’re coming round the corner from the Greyhound and straight down there at the bottom are the two houses, 16 and 18 Castle View. They were three storey houses and we lived in no. 16.
[I had this wrong. I was under the impression that Ernie lived in one of the cottages opposite castle View on the other side of Manchester Road which were knocked down for road widening. These were two-up and two down. I realise now after talking to Joyce Lawson who lives on Castle View that there were two more three-storey houses at the bottom of the row, the present day numbers go up to 14 Castle View so these would be 16 and 18 and yes, they were knocked down.]

So, you’re living there and you get your call-up papers. Tell me about the medical at Blackburn.

R. Aye, go to Blackburn. Well, me mother says they won’t have you, you’ve had rheumatic fever, tonsillitis and all bloody sorts. I thought well, I’m alright, they won’t have me. I weighed 123 pounds, I were a reight poor specimen. I mean, if I’d been a recruiting officer and I’d looked at me I’d have thought well, there isn’t much fight in this fellow, we’ll chuck him out. I travelled up to Blackburn with a bloke called Horace Hartley, he must have been six feet two and weighed about 15 or 16 stone, a bloke called Hartley and me, bloody death warmed up. I said to Horace then, “Me father came home on leave in the Great War and I were sieved through the blanket!” Anyway, I travelled to Blackburn with this Hartley and we went through all the rigmarole, Giving samples and cough and all that you know and right up to the last minute I thought, they don’t want me. Last thing of all you stood in like a sentry box and a strong light shone on you and this would be the final verdict. Chief doctor looking at you and then you got dressed and waited for’t results. A1, fit as a bloody flea they said and I must admit I pranced out, I thought Eh, that’s a rare do, I’m A1. And they didn’t have this Hartley, they didn’t want him, and do you know, six months later he were dead, a big strong fellow like him.

What were wrong with him, his heart or something?

R. Must have been his heart, aye. Horace Hartley they called him.

So, His Majesty accepted you into the armed forces.

R. Then there were a bit of a selection board and I said well, gunner, aeroplane and he just grinned at me did this officer.

Where were the selection board, were that later?

R. I think it were at Blackburn. But anyway, they didn’t fancy me for the Royal Air Force, so I finally got called up and I went into the Royal Signals, I were called up to Skegness and they had a busy job on training me I must admit but they finally made a wireless operator out of me.

So you went up to Skegness and did your training there.

R. Well, you did square bashing you know [Drill on the parade ground.] you’ve been in the army. You did your square bashing there and oh, that was where the selection board was, Skegness. You were like a soldier or airman in the making and they like asked you what you were good at and things like that. And I fancied being an air gunner, I must have fancied something.

And what were the conditions like up there when you first went to Skegness?

R. Well, coming straight from home, well, I think they were very good really. It were a holiday camp that they’d like confiscated.

Commandeered?

R. Commandeered, that’s it. I remember the name of the mattress that I were sleeping on, ‘Somnus’, well, I’d been sleeping on bloody flock beds and them straw mattresses up to then you know. Somnus, spring interior.

Did you have sheets?

R. No we didn’t have sheets, blankets. I don’t think it were so bad really.

How were t’grub?

R. Well, it were a bit, well I think it must have been terrible really but anyway, we survived. We did square bashing there and I thought well, I’ll be a good soldier and we had instructions to polish our boots you know? I got these boots of mine shining like a nigger’s arse. Some swine pinched ‘em and left me a pair of broken down old bloody boots, you’ve never seen the like of them in your life. And do you know, from that moment on I thought Sod soldiering. They’ll never make me into a soldier if I’m here ten years, and they never did, not really. And yet they must have, there were, really there were some……. I mean, Great War, why they call it Great War I don’t know but Great War were over bugger all. But this war I went to, we did have some excuse, there were old Hitler, I mean, he were persecuting the Jews and shooting any bugger he didn’t fancy and if he’d have got here we’d have been in the shit reight wouldn’t we? First job were gelding all’t fellers so they tell us. Anyway, I started on me army career on May 9th 1940 and it went on a long while. Just after then, when did Dunkirk happen?

Dunkirk were at the end of 1940 weren’t it? [May/June 1940 actually.]

R. And then the Lancastria were sunk and they wanted some help at Plymouth helping with the survivors so a lot of us went down there. We went from Plymouth on to Dartmoor, still helping, there were a lot, there were some poor buggers you know, they’d come through it and there were a lot of Dunkirk survivors there as well.

Where were you on Dartmoor?

R. Not far from the prison.

And when you say you were helping, what were you actually doing?

R. Well, we were helping the cooks, me and my mate. Do you know there were a lot of grafting in the army [fraud, thieving.] when this particular incident happened. There were two sides of bacon to cut up, there were thousands of blokes to be fed, and t’corporal said to me and my mate ‘I want this bacon cutting thin’ and the knives weren’t very sharp, so we were cutting this bacon and it took us a long while. Hams were still on you know and when we got down to the hams he must have been watching us and he come to put these bloody hams in a sack. He must have flogged the hams, no wonder he wanted the bacon cutting thin. But we hadn’t been in the army long enough then to realise what was going on. Eh, it were out o’t bloody frying pan and into the fire. Anyway, we had a laugh, I always found something to laugh at, it never got me down.

But what makes you say ‘Out of the frying pan and into the fire’?

R. Well, army life were comparable to civilian life, it were who you knew and how you used your bloody nut. [head] It was very similar in my experience.

You mean the same sort of things were going on, apart from being frightened about being out of a job?

R. Oh you wouldn’t, there were no chance of being redundant in the army, not at that time. We signed on ‘For the duration of hostilities’, I didn’t realise we were going to be in for six years.

Had you done any training as a wireless operator then?

R. Not then, no.

What happened then?

R. Oh we were buggering about for a long while. We went to Liverpool helping wi’ some of the Royal Engineers, digging for ‘em. We were mixed up among , what do they call them? AMPC I think, Pioneer Corps. Any unexploded bomb, we used to go and dig them out. It were all funny to me, I used to laugh. Well, I didn’t laugh all the time but it used to tickle me. First job, we were called out to an unexploded bomb in this position and they all used to get ready and go down in these wagons you know and us silly buggers would go digging. But the first job was always gas meters, electric meters, I were never short of money in Liverpool. We’d pockets full of shillings or coppers or whatever there were. And then we’d start looking for the bomb. Luckily there were never any accidents. We were Signallers really, but trained Signallers would go down in the hole with the bomb. This were like early days you know, before they started unscrewing owt they were all numbered and the signaller would say ‘Unscrewing no 4’ and if it didn’t explode, ‘Unscrewing no 5’ and that’s the way they sorted it out I suppose. But we were away like by then with this bloody bomb uncovered. We’d get away with us pockets full of shillings.


SCG/28 January 2002
7,156



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/7

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 2 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


Right, well, last week we left you in Liverpool digging up unexploded bombs and robbing gas meters!

R. That’s right. That must have been 1940, summertime, June July would it? Aye it must have been.

You hadn’t started your training then had you?

R. No, not training really. I was still in the Royal Engineers but they had had that many bloody disasters, it were come hither, go thither and everywhere. From Liverpool, when things quietened down a bit we had to go to Warrington, then there were a blitz on Manchester and we went to Winnick Hospital, stretcher bearing and like helping as well as we could. From there, there were some raids going on in them days you know, we went to Scarborough. This were the whole section, of us that had been together from Skegness. From Scarborough we were going abroad somewhere, we didn’t know where. Eventually we set off and it’s the only time I’ve ever been to Scotland, straight through to Greenock and they took us out in little boats to a ship called the Strathmore. Eh, I did have a bloody headache. That were January 1941 and that impressed me most of all, me headache! I thought bugger me. Anyway we got on board this ship and oh dearie me, it were crowded. Eventually we set off, we must have sailed down t’Clyde in the dark, out into the North Sea would it be?

No, you’d be in the Irish Sea.

R. Well, Irish Sea then. This convoy must have formed up and there looked to be hundreds of ships. We set off and I don’t think we’d been going so long and I were sick. I were, well, t’first meal we had on board was Mulligatawny soup, so I made me way to the toilet to be sick and I were up to me bloody knees in Mulligatawny. I weren’t the first. Well, it went on, I were sick, sick, sick, sick, day after say, oh a few days. Somebody said Go to the sick berth and see if you can get sommat. So I go to the bloody sick berth and I were on me hands and knees. I knocked on the sick berth door and the man opened the door, looked about and shut it again, I were down below! So I knocked again and crawled up, sticking to the knobs and that and they gave me a couple of pills and I started bucking up. We were on that ship nine weeks, they reckon we nearly went to America and back again, zig zagged all over the bloody world. Well, eventually we got to Capetown in South Africa. Talk about being in bloody heaven! Everything lit up, all Europeans, hell, you’d have thought we were kings way they treated us, nothing too good for us.

And like until then, you’d hardly left Barlick in your life?

R.No. I’d been to Blackpool, I think that’s about as far as I’d been. But I mean, Capetown, they treated us like lords, marvellous it were, but I didn’t realise until later that they didn’t want us mixing wi’t niggers, that were the prime factor, ‘Don’t let these soldiers get mixed wi’ the niggers. But I mean, it didn’t bother me. I think they were as good as me as far as I know and it didn’t bother me whether the bloody fellow were black or not. I could have stopped there, there were some beautiful girls you know and there were one took a fancy to me but she were married. Her husband were a jeweller and he were travelling all the country. They called her Mrs Giddens, all them years and I remember her name. Come to my bungalow she says and oh, we had a great week there. She tried to talk me into deserting and then I thought, bugger that, I don’t want to desert. Not that I wanted to be a soldier, it were my heart were still in Barlick. Anyway, we left there after about six or eight weeks , I think sommat had gone wrong wi’ the ship and they were mending it. So, we’re coming down from Capetown and we’re going across the Indian Ocean and suddenly t’convoy’s split in two, half went left and the other half went right. This half that left us went to Singapore and all the bloody lot were locked up. [Feb 15th 1942 Singapore falls to the Japanese and 70,000 British and Australian troops were captured.] But my half went to Bombay and we disembarked there, they call it the ‘arsehole of India’ you know, Bombay.

I didn’t know that Ernie.

R. Well aye. And my first impression of India, when we got on the dock there were a wog and he had elephantiasis. I’d read about this elephantiasis and I looked at this fellow and I thought Eh, elephantiasis. Anyway, we got on a train, I think it were 18 men or three horses on like a notice. We set off then and we went for bloody miles and miles and we landed at a place called Mhow. [Near Indore, 300 miles NW of Bombay.] It’s far up India that and we started training there. I had been in the army since May 1940 and this’d be April 1941 before I did any training. They made me into, I were what they called an OWL, operator, wireless and line and I missed a good chance there. They interviewed you you know to see what you were fit for, a long line of blokes and when it come my turn this officer said to me ‘What do you know about pigeons?’ I were like flabbergasted, it were coming out of the blue these pigeons, I knew sommat about pigeons but I didn’t like to take advantage you know, of this question, I must have laughed or sommat. Anyway, the bugger that got that job went back to Bombay, they made him a sergeant and put him in charge of a pigeon loft and he were there about four years! What a job that’d have been if only I…

Were them pigeons like, you know, for communications? Like homing pigeons, carrier pigeons?

R. That’s what they were.

They were still using ‘em?

R. Oh yes, aye. Eh, I wish I’d have said aye, of course I wouldn’t have been telling a lie, I’ve allus known a bit about pigeons. Where are we now? Mhow?

Yes, they’ve just made you into an operator, wireless and line.

R. Oh no, they haven’t made me yet. I had to, it were oh, six months training, diddy-dahhing and Ohms Law and, oh, it were very taxing, I didn’t know whether me bloody arsehole were bored or punched! Terrible. Anyway, finally the penny dropped and I could send Morse and read it you know so I were ready for action. Well, we left Mhow and where did we go? Ahmadpur (?) Oh, I couldn’t spell it! There were cannon balls in’t walls from when the British were conquering India, I fancy they were firing cannon balls. Aye, they were sticking, stuck in the walls. Seventeenth India Division they were forming and I were like wireless operator. Wireless and line, see they had different instruments. Well, oh we stayed there a fair while and I got attached to artillery, 25 pounders they were. See, Signals were sent all over the place, to any of the regiments, well in fact I were with all three services, I’ll come to that. Anyway, I went to this artillery, 25 pounders, I forget the name of the regiment but it were Royal Artillery anyway. And we used to go out on schemes you know, practising. For some reason or other, I always seemed to be in front of the bloody guns and these shells were flying out you know and I thought ‘It’s a bit dangerous this! One morning one of the sergeants came into these, we were in tents. I think it were the Sind Desert where we were, it were a desert anyway. ‘Can anybody cook?’ And I thought cook? Aye, I can cook, why? He says ‘Well, they want a cook in the sergeants mess’. I thought well, it’ll be safer than operating this bloody wireless set in front of the guns! So I said I’ll have a do. So I were the cook then and I enjoyed it for a few weeks, a couple of months, I liked it. A lot of these sergeants were jumped up squaddies you know, thinking they were gentlemen, and I came from Barlick. So, t’sergeant major came to this little tent one morning while I were clearing up after breakfast. He says ‘No dinner today Roberts’. I thought Oh, that’s good, I’ll have the afternoon off. So dinner time come and I’m laid on my back in the tent having a smoke and looking at a book. There’s such a bloody noise, it’s this sergeant major, ‘Where’s the lunch?’ I said ‘You told me this morning, ‘No dinner today’. He says ‘Dinner is in the evening. Well, it had always been dinner at lunchtime before then. So I were in bother for that, anyway, I survived it. Oh, and we used to, I’ll tell you where it were near, where were it near? I forget now but we used to go up at weekends sometimes and have a few drinks. It were where old Ghandi used to hang out, Poona, not far from Poona it were. It’s a funny thing about the Signals, they were welcome in most places, they must have had a good reputation, before I got there. There were some smashing brothels there, one or two good bars, you didn’t need much money. Well, we didn’t have much money but you didn’t need much. Aye, now where did we go from there. I’ve gone from Ahmadpur (?) to artillery haven’t I. Back to Ahmadpur (?) , this 17th Indian Division’s nearly formed. What the hell happened next?

How much money are getting paid a day then? That’s a funny thing about the army isn’t it, it were always how you got paid, per day, weren’t it?

R- Well, when we got to India first it were five rupees a week we used to draw, that’s five times one and fourpence, six and eightpence? [33p.] We were poor, when you’re trained and you are a tradesman then, you get extra money, not much, but extra. I don’t know how much. I forget now but we made it do. You could get a tin of cigarettes, fifty cigarettes for a rupee, one and fourpence. [six and a half new pence]

How much were the brothels?

R- Oh, it were amazing! You could go in a brothel in Poona, and there were girls in there, the most beautiful girls you’ll ever see, I don’t care where you go. One rupee and no hurry, one and fourpence. That were before the Yanks arrived.

Oh, did they spoil…..

R- Oh, t’job went to pot straight away. But that’s what it were, one rupee, lovely girls.

Aye, it makes you wonder how long that had been the going rate. It were happen from the First World War, from the Indian Army anyway, between the wars.

R. Oh more than likely. But I saw the last regimental brothel. Somewhere near Poona it was. They put two old biddies in there, good enough for ordinary soldiers I suppose. I went to have a look, but it didn’t appeal to me.

When you say Regimental brothel, set up by the regiment?

R. That’s right, official, official.

Inspected by the MO then? [Medical Officer]

R. Oh yes. But you know, if you listen to these lectures. But still, they were all young virile men, healthy, what the hell can you do?

Oh, got to be some outlets.

R. Socially, we were outcasts, there weren’t a cat in hell’s chance of ever getting what you might call a decent woman. It were like sergeants and upwards.

Why were you an outcast do you think?

R.- I don’t know, it were always a mystery to me. I reckon meself to be as good as the next man. But it must have been a reputation earned by the old-fashioned soldier.

Are you talking about the European women who were out there?

R. Oh, they were absolutely taboo. One of my mates got put on a charge for saying good morning to the bloody sergeant major’s wife. And where would she come from? She’d be bugger all in England.

Aye, that’s it. Well, there you’re running up against the old Indian Army aren’t you. I had a mate in the air force who was in the Indian Army and he said ‘You talk about class distinction? You’ve never seen anything like it was in India.’ And class distinction between the natives as well.

R. Aye. There were certain places where there were a bit of social life, organised by the Salvation Army. A bit of a dance and a jig about and happen get a dance with the captain, jam jar glasses on, so they all looked beautiful!

Did you come across the Church Army at all?

R. No, I can’t say that I did.

It’s funny, because you used to come across the Church Army where the army were. I don’t quite know whether they were an organisation that was sort of connected to the army but I know that at the old barracks where we were there were nearly always a Church Army hut somewhere. Sommat like the Flying Angel, you know, the merchant seamen’s do.

R. Well, in the cities there were always , what did they call it, the YMCA.

Aye, wives and families?

R. It’s a place where you could go and stay. Anyway, I used to get leave occasionally you know. I’d been in India a fair while now, nine months happen and I got leave to go to Calcutta, to an army leave camp. And it were alright, only trouble were this bed I were allocated, I finished up sleeping on the floor. Full of bugs. Early morning, the matron came in, it were a kind of ‘buck you up’ camp. Oh, and I had dysentery, that were it, like a convalescent home. it were, just for a week there and this matron come in at t’morning and I were on’t floor and she pushed me wi’ her foot, ‘Get up!’ she says. So I got up and I gave her a dressing down because of these bugs and she were sorry, she thought I’d come in drunk and collapsed on the deck. ‘A rotten bed full of bugs , this place is lousy!’ So, I got a clean bed for the rest of me stay.

What were conditions like in the barracks in them days? Were you in hutted caps or tented camps most of the time?

R. Well, where I did me initial training in Mhow it were a military camp, it were barracks. All t’walls were about five feet thick , aye, everything spotlessly clean. But no comfort at all, well, there were no comfort in the army was there? You didn’t expect it. We used to sleep under mosquito nets, there were like mosquitoes to deal with and things like that.

Like, your education ‘ud be fairly going on wouldn’t it? I mean, coming out of the mill in Barlick……

R. Oh yes.

I mean, you find yourself in the middle of India, you know?

R. Oh yes, it were expanding left right and centre in every way. I mean, I were seeing things I’d never seen before, never. Blackpool were’t furthest point I’d been up to then.

Can you remember now what sort of impression it made on you? Did you soon get used to it or did you keep taking it in.

R. Oh I were taking it in all the time. I’ve always had a sense of humour, a perverted sense of humour may be, even a bloody accident I’ll laugh at. Little disasters that used to happen, they used to tickle me in one way or another, so it never got me down. I used to think about home and letters, well, when you got letters, that’s a red letter day. But in a way I enjoyed it.

Where were Fred at that time?

R. Which Fred?

Your Fred.

R. I think he were building a munitions factory at Morecambe. They hadn’t called him up yet. It were later on when they grabbed him.

How about Wilson, did he go in?

R. Oh Wilson were on the beach at Dunkirk. Oh aye, he were in England. Lieutenant Colonel Bankier took a fancy to him. I don’t mean…. he were a smart lad, well he said I were the sloppiest soldier he’d ever seen in his life but he were the smartest. And this Lieutenant Colonel Bankier had him as a personal servant all through the war. They went to France together and he came off [the beach] first, I mean, he were a Lieutenant Colonel, but they hitched up again and they were together all during the war.

Aye, so when you come to think about it, I know we’re going back to the socialist bit again but you’d been working for the gaffers in the mill like hell, and then they’d sent you out there and you were fighting for ‘em. It’s one way of looking at it you know.

R. Well, that’s the way it were. Well, we were fighting for King and Country weren’t we?

I don’t know, what were you fighting for? What did they tell you you were fighting for?

R. Well it’s hard to explain Stan. I mean when you start playing t’band and beating the drum you get a bloody funny feeling. I’m an Englishman and that bugger wi’ the little moustache were threatening us. I went into the army with a good resolution. Well, it weren’t so long like before I realised it were going to be a wasted effort.

Now what makes you say that? How long were it before you realised it were a wasted effort.

R. Well, I told you about that bugger pinching me shiny boots?

Yes.

R. There were some bloody scoundrels to deal with you know. Jumped up NCOs, they used to get my back up, and officers. Not all of them but them buggers that came up, like from the lower grades, that had been promoted, they were the worst. And I were always a bit aggressive I think, I’ve always bucked against authority I think. I know I remember an incident when I were at t’South Lancashire Regiment at Warrington, just attached there. I were t’room orderly, my turn to clean up. Well, the section hadn’t gone out on parade, it were about nine o’clock and I’m looking at a paper while the lads are getting ready to go on parade. The sergeant walks in, sergeant Foulds. ‘Why haven’t you cleaned up Roberts!’ I said I’m waiting for these lads to go out on parade. ‘Say sergeant!’ ‘Say sergeant?’ I says. He said ‘sergeant!’ I said Yes sergeant. [He says] ‘You’re on a charge!’ Just like that. I knew he wanted to get his knife into me and so I went in front of the CO. [commanding officer] I don’t know what he called it, insolent and….., I’d done nothing. So I were coming off the square, from these offices, across this big square [and he was] catching me up. ‘I did that to show you who is superior’ he said. I says ‘You’re my bloody military superior and nothing else. In my book regular soldiers are either lazy buggers or bloody thieves and you’re a regular soldier.’ He said ‘I’ll get you.’ I says well, you can get me if you want. he puts me on fatigues in the NAAFI [Navy Army and Air Forces Institute] and there were a right nice cook there, she used to fill me up with good grub. And I found out later that this Foulds had been after her. But he were a regular soldier, jumped up. Anyway, we were moving out of there to come to India , we went up Scotland, no, Scarborough first and then out. I were having a drink down in Warrington at Friday and they were moving out Saturday and he wanted to buy me a drink. I said ‘Piss off!’ I wouldn’t have pissed on him if he were afire, I hated that fellow, that’s why I’ve remembered him. And do you know, as we were moving into an operational area all these old regulars were discovering piles, ruptures, appendix, bad hearts, you’ve no idea the bloody illnesses they suddenly developed, and they disappeared. There were only the militia and one or two regulars of course but there were a lot of them disappeared. So they were crafty buggers, they’d been living it easy for twenty years or more some of them and as soon as it came to earning their salt they were off! Where have I got to now?

Well, we’re motoring round a bit. Anyway, you were with the 17th Indian Division.

R. Aye, they’re forming up.

They’re forming up and then something happened to you.

R. Aye, what happened?

It’s a blank spot is that. Never mind, it’ll come back to you. Where did you find yourself later that year? That’ll happen trigger you back into it.

R. Well, I must have moved away. I must have moved away with the 17th Indian Division, on us way to Burma, or the Japanese had moved, were moving. Well they had taken Singapore and were moving up to Burma so this 17th Indian Division set off to like stop them.

Did you know you were going to Burma?

R. Oh aye. Oh, we had gradually moved into Bengal and the first line of defence were Kamilla, that’s like Eastern [Bengal] they call it Bangladesh now I think. Now that were a very nice place Kamilla, friendly people. They were all waving at us as we were travelling, all these fancy bloody Europeans living in their fancy houses. We went , oh, hundreds and thousands of miles, they knew where we were going an all. Well, we got to Kamilla and that were the first line of defence so everything were set up and the Japs were moving in. And parts of this division went into Burma, my part didn’t, anyway they got chased out, what were left. Back to Kamilla. So one or two mates of mine had been in and out you know and they came out puffed! They didn’t half do some bloody running, across rivers, up mountains and through jungles and God knows what. They told some bloody harrowing stories. I went soldiering on and there were an armoured train turned up. So one morning, it must have been the Orderly Officer called Signalman Roberts out and Signalman McNulty and signalman Straw. ‘You have to go on this armoured train, wireless operators. So, well all right, and away we went. And this armoured train used to go up to a place called Chittagong and then back to Dakar. Well, there were a lot of political unrest you know in India at that time. I think old Ghandi had been in bother a time or two. It [on the train] were a real job. There were McNulty and me and Straw operating this wireless set. Then we stopped, ‘stabling’ they called it, when we stabled at night. We used to get signals and flashed ‘em out, on to Dakar and back to Kammilla. They had a cowcatcher on the front [of the engine] and I used to sit there while we were travelling. We were going through a station one time and there were a bloke holding a bamboo loop up and I put me arm through it. All t’brakes came on. So I got bellowed at for that, I weren’t supposed to do it, it were the clearance for the next stage see? [single line working with tokens] Anyhow, it were after three months that, and we must have broken down, well, like we were back in barracks, we were under canvas then. So we were back to Barracks, McNulty, Straw and Roberts and we weren’t there long before another job turned up. We had to go to Chittagong and join a little ship sailing up the river to Rangamatty. So I says to this mate of mine, Straw, I says It sounds bloody fishy this. He says Aye, it does. It started off, ‘Roberts and Straw fall out, you’re wanted at the Orderly Room’. So I went in and this bloody officer says to me, ‘Can you swim Roberts?’ So silly bugger me says ‘Yes’. ‘Oh, go through there’. And Straw came next, he could swim and all, and this bloody McNulty could swim and all. Up to Chittagong we had to go and get on this little ship. We’d joined the Navy then! Well, it were a real job but the instructions were, Japs were still coming up through Burma you know, They expected them at any minute at Chittagong. We set sail up the river to this Rangamatty, there were a security man on board and a Sub-Lieutenant were captain, Sub-Lieutenant Pike. They were all right, grand fellows, and there were a section of Lewis Gunners, Rajputs they were, and we were all on this little ship, as happy as bloody kings. Up the river, all on the left hand side going up, you see there might have been some Japs on the other side, calling on all the villages, looking for Japs. Oh, it went on a fair while like this. When we got to Rangamatty there were tea plantations there and we just stopped there one night. We always had a good dinner up at this, he were an Honorary Colonel commanding that area. It were in Assam that and he used to dish us up a good meal. Then, four in the morning, back down the river. If we heard a signal the bridge across this river had been blown, our instructions were to sink all the sampans and march through the jungle to Kammilla. It were about 500 miles through the jungle! It were the best holiday of my life that were, it were great.

How long were you on that?

R- Oh, three months. Aye, up and down the river, we used to sing like buggery and do a bit of fishing but we never caught owt. There were no luxuries aboard, the toilet was the river! There were these two iron handles and you used to hang on the back, and these bloody propellers churning up the water underneath you know, a bit frightening., I used to cling on like grim death. We had decent grub and all, we used to get Navy rations when we come to Chittagong you know, we’d get all the rations on board and away we’d go again. Anyway, that job finally come to an end. Japs had been held up somewhere, they must have got blisters on their heels, and the Division was moving into Burma. So we eventually all go down on a boat to Cox’s Bazaar, this is going on to Arrakan (?) and we gradually moved in. There were Lancashire Fusiliers, Punjabis, mountain artillery, Bofors guns and some Valentine tanks. Oh it were like a conquering army but we didn’t get so far. We come up against some opposition. We got to a place about ten miles from, they called it Foul Point, I’ve looked it up on the map since, and it’s on t’map as Foul Point. It were like a little peninsula going into the Bay of Bengal.

You were still on the boat?

R- Oh no, we had been marching now for……. Marching and riding a bit. You know how they were, Divisional HQ, Brigade HQ, Regimental HQ. And all these places were manned by Signals personnel. At that time I were operating, I were an Operator, wireless and line, a line instrument called a Fullaphone, it was supposed to be foolproof. Same as, it were a line instrument but anybody plugging into the line wouldn’t know what was going on. I don’t know why but it must have distorted the signal or sommat you know. Well, we had lots odd scares and a few skirmishes and one bloody thing and another.

When were the first time you actually saw one of the Japanese Imperial Army? Had you seen one by then?

R- No, I hadn’t seen one! There were plenty of air raids. I had seen, the only Japs I’d seen up till then were in Chittagong hospital, pilots that had been shot down, and they had guards on them, they’d have done themselves in if they hadn’t been watching them. And at Cox’s Bazaar there were a prisoner of war cage. Oh, to look at it, it were like ten acres as far as I could see, not a bloody soul in there, only a nanny goat or two. And I were two years in and out of there, that area, and I never saw one prisoner. Not one. Anyway, the first time we went in, I finished up at Divisional HQ. You used to get stints you know, few weeks at Div. HQ fairly quiet, up to Brigade and then a week or two there and up to Regiment, forward observation. That were a bit of a scary job that forward observation. You could look through t’glasses (?) but that’s when I saw some Japs, looking through t’glasses. Down on this Foul; Point. We were stuck there a long while. And then everyone packs up and we can get out. So we got back to Chittagong, but I had had one or two sick does before then, I had dysentery a time or two. I’d been up at Chittagong in hospital and then back again and a funny thing happened. I had been in hospital and I were on me way back to my post, on this little ship that went down to Cox’s Bazaar and I could speak enough Hindustani to make myself understood you know. And I could eat Indian food so I thought I’ll see Baboo in the cookhouse. And there were lots of soldiers on this boat. So I asked him like ‘Connor?’ So for about eight annas [one sixteenth of a rupee] I got a plate of rice and curry and a chapatti or two. But when I were sat outside on this hatch cover, waiting, a voice said, ‘Do you come from Barnoldswick?’ I turned round and I said Aye, Billy Demeline’s son? ‘Yes, that’s right! ‘What are you in?’ I said ‘I’m in the Royal Signals’ ‘Oh, you’ll get paid for that won’t you.’ I thought I’ve got a real one here! He’s a chip off the old block! I said Yes, we get Tradesman’s Pay. He says ‘Well, I’m a signaller, but only Regimental, I don’t get paid’ And in any case I shouldn’t be here, I left me juggling kit on Bombay’. He were a bloody juggler! Entertaining the troops he did! He got on the wrong boat! Well he blasted me all the way down to bloody Cox, was I ever glad to get rid of him, eh bloody hell, and he were old Billy Demeline’s son.

Who were Billy Demeline?

R- he were a barber on Church Street. The one I used to be lather boy for. Aye, but what a small world! Eh bloody hell. And since I come home, I were going on t’bus at one time to Burnley and he were sat in the opposite seat. I looked at him and he looked at me. I said ‘Juggling?’ He wanted to know how I’d gone on. I said ‘Oh, all right. Hunky Dory.’

Aye, survived, apart from the dysentery.

R- Oh, dysentery, ulcers, prickly heat, danky fever, I catched everything but bloody VD and that’s one thing I should have catched. Aye, owt there was going I catched. Oh, I’ll tell you another little story. I got dysentery, and I were being sent out for treatment and at the first clearing station, like an ambulance station, they wanted a sample so they could test it under the microscope. So I went to this little tent and put a sample in a little pot and there were two Lancashire Fusilier lads in there giving samples. They looked at this of mine and one of them said ‘I’ll give you five rupees for a sample like that!’ I says, ‘Give us the bloody money!’ They both gave me five rupees apiece and I gave ‘em a sample in two pots. Well, I don’t know how they’d go on when they gave their sample to compare it but I made ten rupees there! Aye, it were more precious than gold, ‘cause there were nothing coming out of me arse but bubbles and blood, I were real poorly that time. Anyway I survived that and went back again. We were still there, two years we were there, Seventeenth Division and they use to go on patrols into the jungle.

Where were this, Cox’s Bazaar?

R- Oh no, further in than Cox’s Bazaar, Tisli, (?) you can see it on the map, always on the coast, always in the sound of the sea. Aye, it weren’t so bad really when things were quiet. We used to go swimming in the By of Bengal sometimes when it were quiet. Nobody could make mo advance at all, they were stuck in that place for a long, long time, never got down past this Foul Point. The Japs used to come over regularly, well, every day, bombing and strafing and acting the bloody goat until they got some Bofors up there. Things were bucking up I think, supply-wise, I mean, we kicked off with nothing and these Bofors chased the buggers off. They used to come in and do just what they pleased. Finally, the Seventeenth Division got relieved for once and out we came. We all got leave, I went to Calcutta and then they re-formed, I had a good rest and more training. It were the Twenty Sixth Division that went, that relieved us. Where did I go from there? Well, I survived the Burma Campaign I think I went to Ceylon then, getting ready to invade Sumatra.

I think I once heard you say something about seeing Wingate when he were….

R- Oh well, that were in Burma itself. We were paraded at mornings you know, even on active service, you’re still on bloody parade! And we were all stood in lines at attention and ‘Stand At Ease!’ and this officer were giving us a pep talk I thought. They used to come regular giving us pep talks. This Wingate, he wanted some volunteers. My mate says ‘Eh, I’m sick of this bloody lot, I want to volunteer’. I says ‘Keep bloody still and say nothing. Never volunteer for nothing!’, he looked like a bloody nutcase to me. And he were, he got some volunteers and they went marching into Burma and dropping by parachute and making forts and acting t’bloody goat in general. I don’t think they did much good, not for t’volunteers, there weren’t as right lot of them survived.

That were Chindits weren’t it?

R- Aye, give ‘em a fancy hat apiece, one of the Australian bush hats.

Is that right?

R- I’d have looked a bugger with that on with me bow legs! Anyway, they didn’t get me, I’m still unscathed.


SCG/20 February 2002
6019 words.




LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/8

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 2 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


Now, Orde Wingate has just picked his Chindits and you were……

R-We were still in Burma then. These wireless sets we worked on were manned 24 hours a day you know. All night, you get four [hours] on and four off. Well, me and my mate, we had to work in pairs. Me and my mate were in this slit trench with these FS6 wireless sets, they were good uns, Australian. And there were a bust up going on, some patrols having a bit of a dust up you know and there were bullets flying around and a lot of noise. I were cowered down in this trench with Straw and suddenly it struck me as funny, I remembered me mother telling a little tale to me, years ago, ‘cause she had a sense of humour. This little tale came into me head and I said to Straw, ‘Ho, Straw, what does blood smell like?’ He says ‘I don’t know’. I says ‘well, if it smells like shit, I’m wounded!’ and then I started laughing. But just imagine, laughing under them conditions. Things quietened down, time passed on, big shifts and little shifts and we moved on eventually. Well, there were one harrowing instance, we had about three hundred mules and we were cut off completely, no hope of survival, it were like every man for himself and the vet. [veterinary surgeon] put all these mules down, rather than let them fall into Japanese hands and do you know, I cried like a bloody kid. Because there were one mule that I used to like a lot, Susie we called it. If we did any moving about we used mules to carry batteries and what we used to call the Chore Horse, for charging them, and we always seemed to get Susie and poor old Susie were put down. What a bloody waste isn’t it, war. What a waste when you come to think of it, all for bugger all. Where’ve we got to now? Oh, I’m on me way to Ceylon aren’t I. To invade Sumatra. But I’d only been in Ceylon, Colombo, for a month or so and I were posted again, back up to Madras, Air Formation Signals, so I’m in’t army, I’ve been in the navy and now I’m in’t air force.

It were a big air station that and for the first time in me Indian career I had a sweetheart. I were working on a telephone switchboard at the time [and] down in Madras there were some army offices you know and I noticed this girl were on duty [at the army offices] when I were on duty. We used to have little chats and they called her Irene Lucas. There were lots of Lucas’s in India, born and bred in India, he were a busy man were Lucas. Anyway, there were a film on in Madras, Gone With The Wind, and I asked this Irene Lucas if she’d like to go and see it wi’ me. ‘Yes, all right’ she says, ‘but I’m dark see?’ Well I thought, dark, it’d make no difference to me. I said ‘What difference does that make? I’m fair’. I had bloody ginger hair then. ‘All right then’, we’d meet on St Thomas’s Mount Station at this particular hour. So I went down and gets off the train and walks along the platform and I saw this smart little bird walking towards me. I thought, I wonder if this is Irene Lucas? So I said, ‘Are you Irene?’ She says yes and do you know, dark? She were as dark as the bloody ace of spades but a lovely girl. And I were at St Thomas’s Mount for three or four months going out with this girl regular and it were’t happiest three or four months I’ll tell you, she were a lovely girl. I were sorry when I had to leave her, urgent posting back to Ceylon. They couldn’t start this bloody invasion without me you see. So back to Ceylon I went, it were a long way you know, travelling on me own.

How did you travel, by rail?

R- Train, train and boat. Oh we used to go on a boat to Ceylon you know. Like, you know how they do, issue these passes and I went. I mean, Ceylon were a lovely island but it’s lousy, there’s bugs everywhere.

So you’re in Ceylon now, you’d gone back ostensibly to invade Sumatra. What year would that be about?

R- !944 going on to 1945. I had been in India nearly four years then. I told you about me old mate Jones didn’t I, that I were wi’ a long while and I lost touch with him. He were a brilliant operator, brilliant, they’d had him up on the North West Frontier, listening to the Russians. And when I were in Burma, up at Brigade one time, I got relieved and come back to Division. I’m stood in a queue waiting for some grub, there were open fires you know, like camping out and I looked down the queue and I thought by gum that chap looks familiar from the back. This Jones had a big head. And it were Jones. He’d come from the North West Frontier [where he had been] listening to t’Russians right down into Burma to listen to t’Japanese. That bugger should have had a bloody medal, he were still a Signalman and a brilliant operator. He were never, oh it were marvellous just to watch him taking these messages. And we came home on’t same ship me and him.

From Ceylon?

R- From, no, you did a four year term and we went out on the same ship so we were coming home, they called it the Rajah Draft. I met him at Doolally [Deolalli is a town near Bombay and ‘tap’ is Hindustani for fever] Doolally Tap? They reckon everyone who has been at Doolally is doolally. I met him there in that camp, it were a trans, what do they call it? Trans sommat camp [transit]. We went from there on to t’ship, they called it Alcantara and we set sail for England. [ALCANTARA 22,181 gross tons, length 630.5ft x beam 78.5ft, two funnels, two masts, twin screw and a speed of 16 knots. Accommodation for 432-1st, 200-2nd and 674-3rd class passengers. Built by Harland & Wolff, Belfast, she was launched for Royal Mail Lines on 23rd Sep.1926. Her maiden voyage started on 4th Mar.1927 when she left Southampton for Cherbourg, Lisbon, Las Palmas, Rio de Janeiro and Buenos Aires. She continued this service, with the occasional cruise until 1934 when she was rebuilt to 22,209 gross tons, with accommodation for 330-1st,220-2nd and 768-3rd class passengers. She was also lengthened to 666ft, her two funnels heightened and she was fitted with new diesel engines to give her a speed of 18 knots. She resumed the same service on 4th May 1935 and continued until 1939 when she was rebuilt as an Armed Merchant Cruiser. Her forward (dummy) funnel and mainmast were removed at this time. Sent to Malta for further conversion, she was involved in a serious collision with the Cunard ship FRANCONIA en route, but remained afloat and managed to reach Alexandria for major hull repairs. In December 1939 she commenced South Atlantic patrol work. In July 1940 she was engaged in a battle with the German surface raider THOR and scored a number of hits, but was damaged on the waterline by an unexploded shell and had to reduce speed. The THOR withdrew under cover of a smokescreen and the ALCANTARA put into Rio for temporary repairs. In Nov.1940 she returned to Liverpool where she was fitted with better armament and then returned to South Atlantic patrol work. Converted to a troopship in 1943, she made trooping voyages to the Mediterranean, Singapore, East Indies, Halifax, India and Ceylon. Refitted after the war to carry 220-1st, 185-cabin and 462-tourist class passengers, she resumed the Southampton - Buenos Aires service on 8th Oct.1948. On 17th Apr.1958 she left Southampton on her last voyage to Buenos Aires having made 172 round voyages to South America. Sold to Japanese ship breakers, she was renamed KAISHO MARU for her passage to Japan for scrapping and arrived at Osaka on 30th Sep.1958.] But they came back through t’Suez Canal and when we went out we went round the Cape you know. So I had been all them miles, a country boy that had been to Blackpool exploring. And I’d been all them thousands of miles in them four years. When we got back to England it docked at Liverpool and they were playing ‘Nearer My God To Thee’ on t’quay side, a brass band. Bloody Hell! I thought me heart would break, what a feeling, coming back. And we went to Catterick for some ration tickets and all sorts. Well, we’d had no dealings wi’ this hardly you know, it were all new. And black-outs, blackout were still on. So we got to Catterick and got leave passes and money and chocolate and all sorts and old Jones and me said Ta Ta, see you in a month. We had a month’s leave. We came home, had a month leave and went back to Catterick.

Now hang on a minute, you came back to Barlick then for the first time for four years. Skinny ginger little Ernie Roberts that knew nowt went out and skinny little Ernie Roberts that were a different colour and knew a bit more came back.

R- That’s reight!

What were your impressions when you landed back in Barlick?

R- It were just as if I’d gone yesterday, just exactly the same. There were no changes only me wife had buggered off with another fellow and I like came home to me mother. That were like, it were like a disease during the war. Soldiers used to get ‘Dear John’ letters. Very sorry but these things happen and, well, that were it weren’t it. I remember a bloke called Nop. There were about 26 blokes in his section when we were at St Thomas’s Mount, Air Formation, Signals, and he were the only bugger that hadn’t had a ‘Dear John’ letter. This Nop come from Manchester and he got one. I think I must have been a good listener or fatherly figure or sommat. Came to me with bloody tears in his eyes, ‘Read that’ he says. Oh I said, is this it? You’re the last! And it said, I forget his Christian name, you didn’t use Christian names in the army. It called him, ‘Dear Nop, I had been to Manchester Royal Infirmary with my eyes and they’d put some drops in and when I came out I couldn’t see and some lousy swine put me in the family way’. I thought that were bloody good that were! Eh, poor old Nop, he were reight upset but he realised and got over it in a week or two. But I mean, it were just life, the times, by gum.

They must have been powerful drops!

R- They must have been powerful drops them! Anyway, I came home to me mother up Castle View and I had a jolly time for a month, dances and drinks and I had some medal ribbons up you know, conquering hero, I’d carried me rifle then for about five years and never fired it, only on the range in the early days, I’ll bet there were cobwebs in it. Anyway, back to Catterick. The German war were doing well then and t’Japanese were getting hammered by the Yanks and everything were hunky dory. Got back to Catterick, no Jones. So I hung on and hung on, waiting for Jones to turn up and a fortnight passed. Eventually he turned up. Now I were with him a fair while in India and he would never go into a brothel, he were a clean living man. I said ‘Where the hell have you been?’ He says, ‘You won’t believe this’. He came from Pontypool, spoke Welsh you know, up and down. ‘You’ll never believe this, my childhood sweetheart gave me the VD!’ Aye, and he’d been in hospital, what a shame that were. [laughter]

Aye, we shouldn’t laugh. I think I must have the same sense of humour as you!

R- Eh I said, what a shame, he’s wasted four years. So that romance had gone to pop. I can see his face now, he wore big glasses.

Poor bugger.

R- Where did we go from Catterick/ I’m saying Catterick, it were Thirsk where we went. We went from Thirsk and we got split up then. Different units, some went to Germany, or wherever they were acting the goat see? I thought, Well, it’ll be my bloody turn and I got posted to Preston! I couldn’t believe my own eyes when I saw it on Orders, ‘Signalman Roberts 13023992 report for orders and pass to Preston in Lancashire. Eh, it’s only twenty miles away. Oh, it were a real time I had at Preston, I were just there long enough to plant some seed potatoes and dig ‘em up. How long does that take? About four months? Well, that’s what it were. While I were there the European war finished and our job, we were working in a big warehouse, all the Home Guard equipment were coming in there, all the wireless equipment you know. Thousands of pairs of headphones, wireless sets, everything you can mention, wireless valves, things for testing lines. Well, they were well away, I mean we were flogging these buggers down in Preston. Next door there were a REME place [Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers] and all the guns were coming in there. Shotguns and rifles and revolvers and all sorts. I’d have got bloody jail if they’d catched us, we were flogging guns, flogging this, flogging that, we were out every night, it were a real [do]. Oh, I forgot to tell you, while I were waiting for Jones I had a job in the blanket store at Thirsk, there must have been five million blankets in there. I thought they’ve made a mistake putting me in here! It were thin Roberts but it were fat Roberts going out every night, one blanket round me waist. Ten bob, selling like hot cakes down in the pubs at Thirsk. I think we went to Northallerton or somewhere on the passion wagon, me with the blankets. I wish I’d had a wagon in them days, made a bloody fortune, there were millions. I’m not codding [kidding], as far as I could see, piled up to the ceiling, blankets, some of them good uns and all. Not them hairy uns, them smooth khaki coloured uns. I fetched one or two back to Barlick and there were one or two young women walking about with these fancy camel hair coats on after the war. Ernest Robert’s Yankee blankets…… Yes, I had a happy time at Preston.

Where did you go from there?

R- From Preston? Oh it’s coming up to demob time now, to Catterick we went. I were at Catterick a few months and then I were demobbed. [demobilised] Back to Civvy Street.

The thing that strikes me, listening to you, is that you’ve told the story of four and a half years, five years, whatever it were, soldiering, in a very relaxed gentle sort of fashion.

R- Aye it were six years to the day from going in to coming out.

There you are, six years to the day. Bit it’s perfectly obvious that there were times when you would have rather been anywhere than where you were at the time.

R- Oh aye, many a time.

You see what I mean? We were saying earlier what marvellous things human beings are, I mean it’s a marvellous thing that you can, it’s not a matter of blocking these things out but you know, look on the bright side. You don’t remember the bad days so well do you?

R- Well, you don’t remember the bad days unless you think about them. But you remember all the happy times and I had some happy times. Fun, good fun, aye.

Well, that’s as far as I want to pursue the war years. I’ll tell you why, I’m not really into the business of going into that and I think there has been plenty done already. I once did some with me dad and if you start pushing people into talking about things that are very bad experiences which some people did have, especially in the First World War……

R- Aye, they did that.

….. you can actually make them poorly.

R- Oh there were some bad times in my times, aye there were.

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying…..

R- Oh no, I mean, I’m no hero but a survivor. I mean I could have shoved a bayonet into a Jap and thought nowt about it if it had been either me or him. We’d lots of scares and on the ready . I mean, when I say I carried a rifle all them years and never fired it, it were ready, but I weren’t a fighting man, I were a technician you might call me, a tradesman doing my part wi’ the Signals.

Yes. I realise that there is a lot more to it than meets the eye. As I say, I don’t want to pursue that too far really. What’s interesting me now is [that] Signalman Robert’s part in the Great Conflict 1939 to 1945 is now finished.

R- Aye, it’s like a bloody comedian’s part! It were nearly all fun. Laughing. I remember one time we were really in trouble, right in the bloody middle of it and someone wanted an instrument mechanic quick. We had these tradesmen who went round mending wireless sets you know. And this officer galloped into this little clearing where we were on a horse. And this bloke went with him, walking behind his horse and this were just when the sun were coming up very early in the morning. And then, when the sun were going down, this bloke staggered into the clearing, I can see his face now, he were bloody exhausted. He says, ‘I’ve walked round after that bloody horse all day’. He were lost, the officer were lost, he never found the place he were going! Eh dearie me, I fell on the floor laughing because he were a comical bugger this instrument mechanic. Aye, he were forced to laugh when he’d had a cup of tea and come round. But, funny instance that of what you used to have, just imagine walking round all day behind a horse in that heat! Eh, dearie me, t’officer were lost. I said to him, ‘I’ll bet the horse was buggered as well!’ Oh he said ‘What a bloody experience!’

Anyway, there you are, landed back in Barlick, t’war’s over, now what’s the first idea you had then? Get a job or what?

R- Well, I’d only a hundred pounds.

Demob pay.

R- Well, a hundred and odd quid, and that didn’t go so far. I mean, it were like starting from scratch but big shifts and little shifts. I’d been in touch with the wife you know, and she had a little boy. ‘Could she come back to Barlick?’ Like, to me, I mean we were like childhood sweethearts, they grow on you don’t they, women. So I said ‘OK, we’ll have another try’. I mean, t’war years, I’d been no angel and I’m like broadminded and you don’t miss a slice off a cut loaf as they say. I went to live in a little house down t’Butts, me and t’wife and this little boy. Well, I only knew one job, weaving, so I’m weaving within a week or two.

Who were weaving then in Barlick? ‘Cause a lot of the mills had been shut down hadn’t they?

R- Oh they must have been. Calf Hall were like munitions, Bankfield were on munitions and Wellhouse were a tobacco store.

Butts were closed weren’t it?

R- Aye, Butts were closed as well. But Pickles’ at Barnsey were going, Long Ing were going, Moss Shed were going, Bancroft were going and Slater’s at Salterforth.

How about Westfield?

R- Oh they were running

Fernbank?

R- They were going as well.

So there were still a lot of looms running in Barlick then.

R- Yes, and ‘Britain’s Bread hung by Lancashire’s Thread’. I mean, you were like a little god, a weaver, they were clamouring after your services.

Is that right?

R- Aye it were. I walked down to Pickles’ for some weaving and he shook me by th’hand, the manager. ‘Hello Ernest’, he says, ‘How are you?’.

Who were that?

R- Tooby. ‘Do you want some work?’ I says Aye, that’s what I’ve come down for. You can start right now if you want to, six loom and working reight hard then in 1945/46, a pound a day you’d make, five pound a week. Well, that didn’t go so far did it? Even then. But you could make a do, but you were still on the borderline between starvation and living. There were no luxuries, I had ten fags a day, I mean I had a wife and child to keep, not much rent to pay. I were weaving there a fair while and I asked Tooby would he find me tackling. They were short of tacklers see. Tackling, that were it, every weaver’s bloody goal. No, no signs at all of ever being a tackler. I were very friendly wi’ t’weft chap at Moss Shed, Widdups, and I were having a pint of beer in t’Stars one night and he says ‘They’re looking for a tackler, an apprentice tackler, at Widdups.’ ‘Why don’t you try like?’ I says ‘I will do’. So it’d be the following morning at breakfast time I went across from Barnsey Shed to Moss Shed and knocked on the office door there and John Widdup came to the door. I didn’t know it were John Widdup then but I knew after. ‘Now then lad’ he says, he thought I wanted weaving see. You were welcome everywhere. I says, ‘Well, are you Mr Widdup?’ He says ‘Yes’. I said ‘I’m weaving at Barnsey and someone told me you were looking for an apprentice tackler.’ He said ‘Well, we are.’ I said ‘Well, I’d like to apply.’ He says ‘Have you been in the army?’ I said ‘Yes.’ ‘Come back at dinnertime’ he says. So I went back at dinnertime. ‘Put your notice in and start here as an apprentice tackler.’ That were the best bit of bloody luck I’d had in my life. I started there as an apprentice tackler and I’ve never done anything else since.

Why did he want to know if you’d been in the army?

R- I don’t know.

And then, come back at dinnertime, I mean, would he be checking up like at t’Labour Exchange?

R- I don’t know about checking up but there were three brothers and t’father then and it’d have to be a joint affair I suppose. And the reason I got the job, and this is how it had been working for generations about tackling, there were a bloke working there, two tacklers, one had a son he wanted to come into t’mill as an apprentice tackler and t’other fellow had a nephew to come to Widdups as an apprentice tackler. To settle that difference, they’d be falling out I suppose, they fetched a stranger in. And that’s how I got to be a tackler. Immediately my wage went from five pound to ten pound. Now, can you imagine that happening?

Straight away?

R- Straight away I were on a ten pound wage. I were weaving and learning to tackle in between you know. Dinnertime and evenings and Saturday morning and that. After six months I was on me own.

So you joined the Tackler’s Union straight away?

R- Oh yes. Aye, I’d to go in, that’s like essential, you’d to be in t’Tackler’s Union.

Did you have to go in front of t’Committee?

R- Oh aye. Aye, little god sat there!

Where were that at?

R- Colne.

How did war service go down with them? Were that having a …..

R- Oh they weren’t interested in war service.

No? What were they interested in?

R- They were just interested in bloody tacklers. I don’t suppose any of them had been in the army, ever. It wouldn’t have mattered to them if I’d had the bloody VC! Anyway, they accepted me.

When you went in front of the Committee, were the old story true, that if you knew the right blokes you were all right.

R- Well, it’s always been like that hasn’t it? But, at the same time, they were very short of tacklers.

That’s it.

R- It’s been a closed shop all these years, they had been dying, nobody to take their place. But I mean, it’s a bit different now, there isn’t a lot of work, it’s gradually dying is textiles, Lancashire Textiles anyway.

Yes, that’s right, aye. So anyway, you went in front of the Committee and got into the union and you were tackling down at Widdups and your wage had shot up from a fiver to a tenner.

R- That’s right, just like a flash of lightning, never earned as much money in me life! Well off, it were from poverty to bloody luxury in comparison and within six months I were on a set of looms and earning about fourteen pounds a week.

That were a good wage then.

R- Yes, it were, it’s always been a decent wage.

That set of looms, how many were there to it?

R- How many looms running?

No, your set, how many were there in your set. Your looms, was it a standard set?

R- Well, they were standard. There were a hundred looms then. It’d gone down from one hundred and forty four to one hundred then.

So, you had a hundred loom on your set. Were you still on poundage?

R- No, no poundage. I have never been on poundage.

That had gone then?

R- It had gone aye. Yes, you were on a standing wage.

Going back into the weaving shed after the war, did anything strike you when you went back in? You know, about the condition of the weavers, had it altered any, were things any better for t’weaver?

R- Oh, a lot better.

In what way?

R- Oh well, they weren’t as strict, what they wanted was production, they didn’t want quality. Any kind of cloth ‘ud do in them days. They weren’t strict on timekeeping either and there were a canteen and you know, things were different altogether. Bosses were like pandering to the workers then.

Well it’s the same thing we’ve talked about before isn’t it, all of a sudden labour becomes…..

R- Important.

It wasn’t a cheap commodity any more and of course, if weavers are [short] like that, there’s no such thing as tramp weavers then, they had all gone.

R- Oh aye, t’tramp weaver’s days were finished. I fancy they’d all be dead, they all seemed to be old men when I were a boy.

No lines in’t warehouse in the morning?

R- No, nothing like that. Aye, anyone who wanted weaving in them days were welcome with open arms.

Just walked in and got it.

R- Walked in aye. And it’s t’same today.

Yes it is, you’re quite right.

R- I mean if there were a dozen weavers come tomorrow they’d get started, well, some of them would.

How about weft carrying then, was there anyone weft carrying?

R- Well, it were leading up to that. There were experiments going on, weft carriers and that.

Were they still plaiting their own cloth or had that gone by the board?

R- That had gone. There were roller carriers and sweepers.

When did roller carriers come in? During t’war?

R-Aye, they must have done.

Aye, that’s a gap that you won’t be able to fill in this story, what happened during the war in the weaving shed. I shall have to find someone that were weaving right through the war.

R- Aye, there were some places closed down but a lot of places went on.

Yes, it seems to have been the family firms that they left alone and the room and power shops that they closed generally wasn’t it?

R- I think it were when you come to think of it. Calf Hall went on munitions and Wellhouse were a tobacco store and Bankfield, aye.

Yes. It’s been pointed out to me before and it has been said to me that there were two reasons for that. One was that the government in their wisdom thought that if they were going to leave anybody alone it’d be more politic to leave the family firms alone. The other thing was that the shed companies weren’t averse to being thrown out of weaving because they knew they could draw a bloody good price for premises for other purposes during the war.

R- Oh aye. T’war’s made millionaires, plenty. And bloody widows!

Yes, aye, and to go back to the consequences of the war just a little bit….of course there’d be a lot of your mates, there’d be a lot of blokes…. Well, I’m assuming that there would be people that you knew that they didn’t come back from the war. That weren’t as lucky as you.

R- Oh aye, there were.

So there’d be faces missing among the people that you’d grown up with.

R- Aye, that’s true, yes, there were.

It’s a difficult question to ask……. Do you know that it affected you in any way? Did it make you start thinking?

R- Well, I suppose it did. I used to get a bit emotional at Christmas and times like that you know when you’d been celebrating may be and getting a few drinks and you start thinking about people you knew that had been killed. Well, even today I think about some of them sometimes, I lost some good mates in Burma.

Aye, that’s understandable. So I mean, would you say that when you came back into the weaving shed you were a different man than when you went out?

R- Aye.

If you’d come back from the war into exactly the same conditions that had prevailed before the war when you went in, you know, the weavers being really hard pressed, that’s the only word for it. Do you think that your attitude would have been any different? Because you’d been to the war?

R- Oh definitely it would. You’d never be servile to anybody. You’d be respectful but not servile.

Yes. That’s the thing I’m getting at here.

R- Oh it changed your whole pattern of life. You had to be independent and militant towards these bloody plutocrats. No, I would never wear anything like that when I come [home]. Well, I’ve always been a bit of a bloody rebel and even before the war it were gradually organising. My generation, they are better educated and were realising that things weren’t quite as they should be. Unions were organising and things did shape themselves into a pattern on the worker’s side. I mean, I don’t care how many millionaires there are so long as I get a living wage.

That’s it, yes. But would you say that in general, because obviously you weren’t the only one coming back from the war, that there’d be quite a few coming back into industry the same as you. You know, if you like, the effects of the normal system of brainwashing you into thinking that your job was to start work as early as you could, work well ‘til you were 65 and then quietly cock your clogs somewhere and not get under people’s feet, a lot of that had gone by the board.

R- Oh aye. Oh yes, you wouldn’t stand slaver off bloody tacklers even, There’s a bloke in Barlick now, what the hell do they call him? His name’s just slipped but there were a tackler trying to treat him like tacklers treated weavers pre-war and he thumped him right on the bloody nose and he didn’t even get sacked.

Aye, and before the war that’d be out of your….. Well, he’d have never got a weaving job in Barlick would he?

R- Oh no, he wouldn’t have, never. He’d have been blacklisted. Aye, smacked him right on the bloody nose, that quietened him. No, they wouldn’t have it.

So times have changed.

R- Aye But all…., I mean there were a lot of ex-soldiers weaving with me, we weren’t militants or domineering or owt like that so long as we were treated somewhere near like human beings. That’s all we wanted, we wouldn’t be treated like bloody dirt.

Yes, that’s the thing I’m trying to get at really because it seems obvious to me that if you train a bloke and condition a bloke to fight for six years it’s no use expecting him to come back and go back into conditions such as were prevailing before the war in the weaving shed where in actual fact he’d been downtrodden. I mean the two things just don’t square up do they?

R- Oh no, they never would have squared up.

It makes me wonder how much of the transition was due to the fact that weavers were in demand and the industry was booming at the time. You know, Britain’s Bread ….. and all the rest of it, and how much was due to the fact that a different generation, a different type of man was coming back and going in [the weaving shed]. A completely different education. I mean, you were a young man that’d travelled the world, you’d seen elephants, you’d seen some light.

R- That’s right.

You weren’t the little lad that, in clogs, had never been outside Barlick apart from t’train to Blackpool, Central Station and back. And yet in some ways, and this is the fascinating thing to me, do you think it’s right to say that the manufacturers themselves, as far as they were concerned, I wonder how much of that dawned on some of the manufacturers. Because as far as they were concerned, what had happened was that there had been an interruption of normal trading and they were back into one of the good old boom periods like they had before the war. Their only bloody problem as far as I can make out was that they couldn’t get enough weavers.

R- That’s it, that was a problem.

Now bearing that in mind, do you think they could see the….[writing on the wall] Do you think any of them had any idea what was coming or do you think they were still living in the pre-war days?

R- Oh aye. They were living in the pre-war days, it were a bitter pill they had to swallow and they didn’t like it. They had it to do, to try and attract weavers into the industry. They even took ‘em on day trips to London and Blackpool and places, a trip every year free, meal laid on.

Who did that?

R- Pickles. And you could get a meal in t’canteen if you wanted one, but you wanted a good stomach! That’s one thing I came out of the army with, a bloody bad stomach. It took me five years to get me stomach back. Aye, I were living on bloody cream crackers for about twelve months. Aye there were sommat right wrong wi’ me stomach all right. I tried every bloody patent medicine there is on the chemist’s shelves. Always feeling sick and indigestion and vomiting and sick you know.

What do you think it were? Some bug you’d picked up?

R- Well it were all t’bloody dysentery I had.

Aye, that’s it, you’d be full of dysentery.

R- Aye, I’d be full and I were full of bloody drugs and all what they pumped into me. And diarrhoea, I’ve had diarrhoea for thirty years.

Is that right?

R- Yes, it’s quite true.

You still have it now?

R- Aye. Did I ever tell you about when I had amoebic dysentery?

No.

R- I had diarrhoea that long me bum all shrunk and I had to have it stretched. All them things like were in the army experience.

So you’re still suffering the effects of amoebic dysentery?

R- Oh yes I am. But I’m somewhere near what you might call fit. I’m never off me work. I’ve always worked like. It isn’t what you’d call a disablement.

I understand that. Now then, you and your bootlace diarrhoea, you’ve done it again. If it isn’t dogshit it’s diarrhoea! We were on about manufacturers. Would you say that the fact that cloth was in such demand, what effect would you say that had on the standard of weaving?

R- Oh they encouraged bad weaving. They must have been able to sell anything that looked like cloth.

When you say ‘encouraged bad weaving’ what do you mean Ernie?

R- Well, you know they use combs for pulling back and scratching up? Well the big boss at Pickles come into the shed and told the weavers to throw the combs away, there were no time for scratching up and pulling back. That’s true, all they wanted was quantity.

Aye, I don’t want to get into the subject of taping this week because we’ve nearly finished this tape. We’re getting very near the end of the tape now and I think we’ve had a good do tonight. I think we’ve reached the natural break now so we’ll stop this tape and then next week we’ll have a fresh start with Ernie Roberts, Tackler.

R- Aye.

SCG/10 April 2002
6388 words



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/9

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 11 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.

Now then we are going to start tonight with .. this is a different do comp­letely. and we are going to, we are going to start with .. we'll do Mary first and then we'll do your pictures. Now .. you'll find this is a bit different than what we have been doing, but you've .. we'll soon get into it. We'll see how we go on, because I've not done this with anybody before and we'll just see what, we'll just see how it works out.

R‑ Aye

Now these picture are all from what we call the 'Bancroft Folio’, this Folio of pictures has been bought by one or two people and there is no doubt that one or two more'll buy its hopefully. Now then, what we are dealing with

(50)
tonight is the weaver’s section of the Bancroft Folio and it's the first picture numbered one, obviously, in the weavers section. Now then, you tell me who this weaver is and what she's doing here.



R‑ Well this is Mary Wilkins, a very skilful weavers in my experience I should say. Fifty years in textiles, she is as good or better than any weaver I've seen weaving this type of goods. She is very skilful and swift, a Godsend to the bosses. If I had ten weavers like Mary running one hundred looms I'd be a millionaire in no time.

Aye and of course she was one of your weavers on your set.

R‑ That's right .

Yes And she's just left .. to go to work at Johnson’s.

R‑ Yes for more money and better conditions.

Aye, and do you know what she said to me when she went? I said to her “Why are you going?" And she said that the main thing was because the floor were clean down there.

R ‑ Aye I can believe it. Yes, that girl were clean when she come in at Monday and she were clean when she went out at Friday.

Did you see how she left her looms?

R- Spotless.

Aye, I’ve some pictures of it. And what is she doing on that picture there Ernie, number 1?

R - She in readying a copy or pirn, taking that spare thread off the bottom; and then she'll load the shuttle, thread it and start the loom.

Yes, now you said something to me before, about … or turn over to number 2. (100)



Now you were saying that that's something that you don't see.

R- Well that's modern weaving, the old fashioned cop was mule spun so there were no spare on t’bottom. That thread there .. she is cleaning is what we call a 'welsh hat’ pirn. [So called because the paper pirn with a metal bottom looked rather like an elongated traditional welsh hat]

That's it, that's the metal piece at the bottom of the pirn in't it? Aye.

R – That’s right. You must take that off or else when it comes to the end the weft'll break and make what they call a broken pick, a bad place.

Aye ... I can sit and look at Mary all night.

R - Oh aye. But apart from looking nice and clean she has a nice personality.

Right, number 3.



R - Well number 3, that's just like another movement, loading t’shuttle, she's cleaned the bottom and she's pushed the pirn on to the shuttle peg and number 4 she's closed it and she is going to…..


[4]

Aye she is, but she’s drawing .. number 4 she’s closed it, and she is drawing some off there in’t she?

R- Aye just a short length so that when she .. inserts, is that t’proper word do you think?

Yes aye. When she puts it

R- …Into the box she can wrap that end round t’temple so that it'll hold you see when it starts picking.

Aye so that she, so that when one pick’s woven through and [it’s started weaving] she's got that tag end hanging out and she can take that tag off.

R - That's right.

She knows where that tag is.

R – Aye.

Aye. Of course apart from anything else the thread has got to be anchored, the weft's got to be anchored at one end or it won’t draw off the shuttles will it? (150) (5 min.) And there she is wrapping it round it (the shuttle), isn't she? (Weaving picture 5)



R- Aye, well that's a weaver’s trick. She wraps it round the shuttle and puts it on the stand. If she didn't the weft’d be hanging down and likely to get catched in a moving part and clog it up or clutter it up.

Aye, that's it.

R - You want to have a look at fat Lil’s looms! (another of Ernie’s weavers, not a good one.)

Is that right?

R- Aye, every shaft, ends, miles of it.



Aye. And there she is putting it on t’tray at t’end of t’loom in't she? Aye. (Weaving picture 6)

R - Aye. . . . She looks very thoughtful. She’s thinking about pay day, maybe it's pay day.

She might have been thinking about you Ernie.

R- Well ...

Now then, number 7.



R- Number 7. She is finding , oh she's just put t’shuttle in t’box, look.

Yes.

R- It’s a bang up loom is this. Can you see that frog there, that blade?

Ah, that' s just below her right arm, just below, just below the slay, there’s a blade sticking out, aye.

R- That's right. Aye that's right. Well, every time the shuttle goes into the box it lifts that and it comes over this stopper here, or frog we call it. So she has her finger on, we call it the finger, on, behind the box and she pushes that back so that shuttle's going easier you see, there’s springs on there.

Yes, that's it.

R- Holding this stop rod down.

So with her right hand she's holding that finger, behind the slay, to make it easier to, and she pushing with her left hand, she is pushing it in with her finger.

R - That's right she can flick it in you see, through that, or otherwise she’d have to shove it in and make her finger sore.

.Aye that's it. And I've noticed Mary sometimes, when she is weaving, she has a little bit of loom spindle with a piece of wood on the end of it.

R- That's right.

And she uses that sometimes doesn’t she? Aye.

R- To shove ‘em up. You must shove that shuttle right up to the picker. (200)

So that when it picks it gets a full pick. Gets a full blow 'first time it goes over.

R- That's right, if it were loose in the box, (the shuttle would only go) half way see, it'd catch and that’d make a trap. And here she is, ready to commence operations, shoving t’knocker on ...



[8]

Yes, with her right hand.

R’ Aye, which shoves t’belt onto the fast pulley, off the loose pulley, and away she goes.

Yes. Now this is picture number eight, why has she got her left hand on top of the ?. Now what do you call that, that she’s got her left hand on?

R- That's .. well, the slay cap or hand shelf... the reed fits in there.

Yes. Now why has she got her hand on top of that?

R- To give it a .. bit of a pull, an extra spurt.

Aye. Is that to make sure that she gets a good pick? First pick?

R - That's right.

Aye. Because a lot of these belts are a bit slack, and when you first knock it in it's not forced to just grab it first time. Aye.

R- That’s right. They did invent an egg shaped pulley you know for that at one time, I don't think it worked very well.

Egg shaped! Is that right?

R- Oh aye, aye it's true. Aye. What’s that word that describes egg shaped?

Elliptical.

R - Oh aye, egg shaped.

Egg shaped bloody pulley ..,

R- Oh it’s true Stan, oh yes, gospel truth that is.

And that loom that she is on, there now, I know it isn't a dobby, what's that motion on top of the loom level with the rest? This is picture number eight.

R- Well that aye.

That motion with the leather straps on, now what's that?

R- Well that’s a spring top, you could put six staves on there, and weave double shaft staves or sateens or what we call janes. And if you are not using the spring top you put these doll heads on, that's a roller top on them two brackets ...

At the front, yes..

R- And that weaves plain.

So that's just weaving with two staves that loom? (250)

R – Well aye. It is, that's what I call a scotch dobby, two staves. But it isn't a right good idea, but it works. You see, that one has four staves, two twos.

Yeas that's it, yes.

R – Well, you make better cloth with two twos, because you can slate them, that's what they call slating when they slope two staves like that.

Aye I see, those staves .. now, wait a minute, when you, you mean that the two staves that are next to each other are sloped.

R- That’s right.


[7]

So .. on picture number 7, we're looking at picture number 7 now, you can see those heald staves just above the level of Mary's right arm . And those heald staves if you look very carefully, they're knotted on with those strings and they are not knotted on level, they are knotted on at a slight slant backwards.

R- That's right, slating they call that.

Aye. Now, what's the advantage of that Ernie?

R- Well you get more cover on the cloth.

More?

R- Cover.

What do you mean by cover?

R – Well, how can I explain cover? It fills the cloth up. I mean, cover. How can I explain cover, can’t, don't you understand what I mean? (10 min)

What do you mean? It makes the cloth more dense for the same pick ?

R- That's right, aye. Squarer. You see, this scotch dobby .. you get a lot of uneven weaving, you must .. if you have one of them two staves, they must be spot on, threaded evenly, or you’ll get uneven weaving.

Ah, I see, or else you'll get it weaving, like, two pairs of weft each time, instead of one, you’d be getting like a pairs and a pair, and a pair.

R- Aye. That's it, aye that's it, we call it ‘twoing’ that. But same as this, it’s like a four to one chance, and this is only a two to one chance.

Aye, I see.

R- Four to one chance of having good cloth, two to one.

That's it,, aye. So in actual fact the construction of that cloth isn't forced to be any different with four staves on there, than that with two staves on number 8.

R- No.

It's just that with doing it like that you are getting a better chance of getting an even cloth.

R- That's right. (300)

Aye. Right, turn over and go on to number 9, see what we can make of this. Now then, she has set her loom on and it's running, we can tell that 'cause it's blurred. Now, what is she doing here?



R - Well she is, she is cutting that bit of weft off that she's wrapped round the temple to anchor the weft when the loom started.

Yes. Now the thing that strikes me about that .. she is cutting that weft tag off at the opposite end to the box that we saw her putting that shuttle in. Now when I come to think .. I don’t know whether all weavers do it, but I've seen Mary do that. She puts the shuttle in at the far side

R- Off side that. Well, when t’weft's finished, this particular cloth she in making, it'll be a pick finder see? So when t’loom's stopped the pick’s fast, it's in the opposite shed to what it should be. So she turns t’loom over and that pick comes loose and she puts the shuttle in, makes a continuous length of weft, and puts it in at the off side.

So, let me explain that to you the way I have understood it.

R- Well.

Wait a minute, we are still on this picture number 9 now, when she, when that last shuttle ran out .. it’s going across the loom.

R- You can see it there .. woven off.

Yes, that's it, aye, woven off, this one that's in this tray at this end of the loom. Now, as that shuttle was going across…

R- That's called the shuttle stand.

Shuttle stand, right. Well that shuttle that’s in the shuttle stand, at this near side of the loom that we are looking at on number 9. That shuttle when it was going across, it ran out and now, as I understand it, it left that piece of weft in and as it left it in, the loom carried on. Before it stopped it carried on and the shed altered and trapped that piece of weft in.

R- That's right, aye.

So what you are saying is that Mary, before she attempts to put another shuttle in, turns that loom back one pick so that it opens the shed out again, on the same pick that that ran out.

R - That's right.

And she lays her shuttle in then, at the far end and knocks it down through the shed doesn't she.

R- Well .. the proper way would be to take that loose piece of weft out altogether and put the shuttle in, which .. I mean, it's possible that it did finish there you see?

Yes, yes I see.

R- But what, what they try and do is... well, just have a continuous piece of weft.

Yes, I’ve seen her sometimes .. tell me if it's the same thing, I've seen her sometimes put the shuttle in in the middle of the weft.

R- That’s so, yes.

So her weft tag then, isn't going to be at the end near the temple, it's
going to be in the middle of the cloth, but that is where the other one ran out is it?

R- That's right.

So that her weft tag in where the last piece of weft ran out, so when she nips it off there as it’s coming through the looms it's just like an end stuck out of the cloth, she just cuts that off there with the scissors, that means that that pick, (the place where the weft ran out will be invisible) and that's what you call a pick found cloth is it?

R- That's right.

Aye. I've seen her do that and I've wondered why she's done that. Jut as it happens in that one picture evidently it must have run out at that end because knowing Mary she’ll have put it, she'll be doing it right.

R- Oh aye. (15 min)

And I've noticed with these temples there's nearly always a piece of string tied round, what do you call this, where the cloth runs over the front of the loom, before it goes under the sand roller? Now what do you call that piece, that piece of cast iron that always gets polished up?

R - Oh aye, that's the breast beam.

Breast beam. Now I’ve noticed these temples here, they nearly always have them knotted up with a piece of string on to the bar don't they? What’s the idea of that?

R – Well, that's .. you can call it Heath Robinson or Bancroft. The reason there is a piece of string on there .. there are some little squares fastened to this temple bar that get worn away. And there is no spares, so a piece of string comes in very handy. That's all that is.

Oh I see. Aye, there you are. You mentioned something else there, we are still on picture number 9, you mentioned something else, you said that there, that Mary was working at the off side of the loom. Now, I take it that the off side then is the side furthest away from the driving pulley, is that right?

R - That's right. This is a right-hand loom.

In other words the pulley, driving pulley is on the right hand-side. Yes?

R- That's right, that's t’knocker on you see?

Yes. So, if the knocker on and the driving pulley were on the left, it’d be a left hand loom?

R - Driving pulley is always on the knocker on side. But there is left hand looms and right hand looms, so that, I mean, it were, it were invented by some bloody inventor you see. Left hand they go like this, left hand, right hand so that she can turn around from this right hand loom and commence operations immediately on the left hand loom.

Yes. Now… ah but the thing is that on that left hand loom, the knocker on and the pulley’ll be on the left hand-side of the loom as you're facing it, won't they.

R – That’s right, aye.

And on a right hand loom they are on the right hand-side.

R – Aye, and incidentally all Mary’s right hand shuttles were what we call ‘peeled’. When she takes her shuttle out she bounced it on the church.

Yes well, you’ve lost me completely now. Now then, come on, when she takes the shuttle out ...

R - Right hand loom she takes it out and bounces it across here. Instead of… I mean it shouldn’t happen this, but it’s a sign of a good weaver. It must be because I’ve had odd weavers before that have been the same. She’s that bloody quick pulling them out she doesn’t lift it out, she drags it out, and drag’s it across this … you know, conglomeration here.

Right, now where t’knocker on is, where the knocker on lever goes down you said church , that’s the church is it?

R - Well we call that church, I don't know why. If you look at all Mary’s right hand looms, (the shuttles) on the back edge it's peeled off.

And that's with pulling them out so quick, she doesn't, instead of lifting them up in the air and putting them down she just drags them across and drops them in the tray, aye.

R- That’s it aye. Just have a look sometimes.

Yes, right, we are motoring again. So, we're on .. number 10 now, picture, number 10 in the weaving section. Now Mary is just …



R- She is going to start this loom.

Yes that's it, so her empty shuttle there, you can't see it, it'll be in the tray up there won’t it?

R- No, That’s right.

And she is just going to start this loom up. And this, actually, is the same sort of loom that we were looking at before.

R - This is a left hand loom.

Yes, but it's a left hand ...

R- Opposite that other right hand loom, this one. (450)

That's it, yes. Aye it is, yes. Now then, picture number 11. Now, you tell me what she's doing there on picture number 11.



R- Well, it looks like she's started t'loom, and she's just going to twitch this wheel here, this is a very strong material, and she is going to twitch it a pick or two, to take a bit of spare up.

So she is actually going …..

R - she is just going to put her hand down top to turn that wheel there.

To put a bit, her right hand, she is just going to turn that bottom wheel and put a little bit of tension on the cloth is she?

R. - That's right.

Aye. Yes. So her shuttle's in that far box, ready to start that loom up, that loom isn't actually running there.

R- Don't you think so? Could be. She could have started it and … could give it a twitch.

Do you know, I think that loom could he running, it's just caught it on t’back of the pick hasn't it?

R- Because they do stop on every pick you know.

Yes that's it, aye. And if you look, I'm just looking at the way this leather’s bent at this picking band, this side here, it just looks to me ….

R- That’s right, it is just going to pick now.

It just looks to me as if it’s just going to pick, and I don't know, but that shuttle's probably just coming into the box.

R- Aye, it is aye.

That shuttle’s probably just coming into the box. Now then, that loom’s running there, and what's she doing there? Is she pulling the weft tag off at that end,.,,

R - She could be.



Aye, this is picture number 12, I’m not right sure just what she is doing there.

R- I think that’s what she’s doing.

Aye, pulling the weft tag off. Now, picture 13, that loom is either still running or just stopped, but at the moment she is filling the shuttle with a fresh cop that she’d taken out before, isn’t she?



R- Aye. That’s true.

That's it. She’s got it in her hand, she is just filling that shuttle. On the next one, picture number 14…



R- That loom's stopped.

Yes, well it's stopped, she's got both shuttles out, hasn’t she?

R – That’s right, she’s taken this shuttle out, weft’s broken, so she is rethreading it to start it up again. To weave t’rest, to weave t’rest of that cop off you see.

Aye, you can see ... Yes, it’s only half a cop isn’t it? And the full shuttle that she just filled is in the tray at the far side of the loom. Aye,

R - That's true.

That's it. Now, picture 15.



R- She is away there. (500)

Well, her hand's moving that fast .. actually there, that blur, she is, her hand's just moving back to pop that shuttle in, as we'll see on the next picture. It’s just caught or that loom's stopped there, but her hand's moving that fast that you can't see it because the [exposure was very long] .. you can see the shed lights were on, the light were very bad that day. There you are

R- Aye…

So on picture 16 you can see that shuttle.



R - That's that half cop.

..with just half a cop. And the way she putting it in in middle of the shed, well, not in the middle but into the shed there .. that's going to be where it broke. Isn’t it?

R- Aye. Aye she has, she has the weft there in her fingers, look, if you look closely.

Aye, will she be holding both pieces there?

R- She'd be pulling that to open t'shed, to open them threads, so as she can find the exact place to put that shuttle.

Aye, that's it, aye. Aye, that's it, if she pulls that broken end it'll be so that she knows just where to put it. So she is popping that shuttle back into the, into the loom. And then on picture 17 ...



R - She is away.

She is setting that loom on again, she has set it on.

R- Aye. You see she has her hand on t'slay cap or hand shelf, on with the knocker on give it a pull, and away it goes.

Very good Mary. Ah now then, 18, we are on a different kettle of fish altogether. Now you tell me what Mary’s doing there on that beam, on this, number 18?



R- Well .. aye, these ends, this, this like rope. That means there are three or four ends there, spare, in t’warp you see. So she is running them round .. you'd make a [rope] .. it takes spare ends right round the beam, and the friction of this beam going round carries them round and round and round. So it like, keeps .. well, you are not supposed to have double ends in plain cloth, not this quality, these would be .. you couldn't take them in, they'd weave in the cloth but it wouldn't .. you know, it’d look a mess.

Aye, so them spare ends would leave a mark down the cloth.

R - That's right, aye.

Now, on this picture number 18. What's these two rails that the warp’s going over, it's going under the first one and over the second one at the back of the loom, what’s that piece of …. (550)

R – Well, that’s what they call threading, that's a bearer, and on the end of the loom there is an eccentric pulley, and every time the loom gets to top, what we call top centre, this pulley takes t'slack up and keeps these ends, you know, tensioned.

Aye, so that bearer, that top one that the warp's going over, is actually moving backwards and forwards as the loom's, running.

R- That’s right. Aye.

Just slightly. And what are these that are further into the warp?

R- Well, them's slay rods. You put them in a certain way, ends in t’four heald staves .. first and third go under t’big rod, that's the back one, and second and last go under the front rod, they wouldn't weave without them rods.

So that, in effect, that's making a shed.. it's making the shed that is going to happen at the heald before it gets there. Aye.

R- That's it. There is an essential part of weaving them, them rods.

Yes. Aye. And picture 19, Mary is doing .. what? She is fulfilling the main function of the weaver



R - That's right. (25 min)

… She is putting somebody else's mistake right.

R- Well, I wouldn't say that. It's always .. I mean you get breakages.

Now there is a bit she is, it is a broken end isn't it she’s in taking up?

R– Aye, it's a broken end. I mean, if there were no broken ends you didn't .. hardly 'need weavers and she is taking them ends back where they broke from.

That's it, so in her left hand, the one with the wedding ring obviously, she's got a reed hook in her hand, hasn't she?

R- Aye.

And what’s she doing with that reed hook?

R- She is threading that broken end back through the heald and reed.

Yes. So she’ll push that reed hook through the proper hole in that heald, where that end ought to come through.

R - That's right, ‘eye’ they call it.

Eye? That's it, eye, And with her right hand she'll just find the broken thread at the back, hook it into the reed hook and then pull it through. And her scissors lay there ready to cut everything off. Actually if I remember rightly … I’ll tell you, yes, these weren't her looms.

R- Weren’t they?

No, these were that lad's, do you remember that lad that got killed on the motorbike that learned with her?

R- Aye!

They were his looms, he had some ends down and she went down to take them up, yes.

R- Oh aye. She’s still on the job there.

Yes, this is the same, picture number 20 is the same, same loom, same breakage but there she's got the reed hook through the reed hasn't she?

http://oneguyfrombarlick.co.uk/gallery/ ... ge_id=3100

R – The reed, aye.

She’s taking that end that she’s brought through the heald, er, yes, t’heald.

R- Yes, through what, through the eye of the heald, and now she’s going to take it through the reed. (600)

That’s it.

R - It has to be in the right place or it won't weave.

That’s it, and there.


[21]

R- Well, that’s the operation complete, she is just threading it under, and she'll start that loom up and away we go.

If I remember rightly, with that being so close to the edge, she trapped that end under the temple.

R - Could do.

Aye, so picture 21, Mary is just trapping that end under the temple. And the temple, what’s the temple in there for Ernie?

R – Well, that's to get, it’s to hold the cloth, straight and firm, and that would pull it out widthways you see.

Aye, ‘cause the tendency with cloth when it's woven is for it to shrink in, isn't it?

R - Oh yes aye.

You lose width

R - Oh aye.

And so your temples are there to put a strain on the cloth and try and counteract that loss in width, aren't they?

R- That's it. And also hold its so that t’warp threads are going on to t'slay board, you see, you couldn't do with ‘em going all over the place, the shuttle’d fly out, that's what temples are for.

Yes. Now, shuttles flying out, what's the main cause of shuttles flying out?

R - Main cause .. oh I should say ends broken and fast in t’shed so that instead of t’shed opening when shuttle’s arriving, it stays closed, and the shuttle flies out, but you can get lots of causes, pickers broke, shuttles that go like canal boats .. no, not canal boats, canoes.

Canoes?

R- Aye, they are supposed to be flat on the bottoms but constant friction shapes them like a canoe. Have you never seen us flattening ‘em out, with a scraper?

So you scrape t’bottom of shuttles to get ‘em .. actually a shuttle’s got to be aerodynamically correct hasn’t it, it's travelling that fast it's like a little aeroplane.

R - I don't know about a little aeroplane.

Aye. Well, it's .. and this one, picture 21 is a picture of the picking stick, isn't it, you are getting a good idea of picking stick and leathers. What's the name of t'leather that goes from the end of the picking stick down to the picker, you can just see it in this picture, at top end of t’picker.

R – Well, there is three leathers there, this is a picking band, long leather, and it goes under ..

The middle one? Aye .

R- That one on top of the, fastened to the .. that's called t’bonnet. (30 min)

On’t picking stick? Aye.

R - Aye. That makes sure that t’picking band doesn't fly off t’end of the picking stick, and then it goes through a short leather, and the short leather in its turn goes round the picker.

That's it.

R - Long leather goes through t'short leather, and there is a wood peg put in and that's it.

Aye, t'wood peg stops the long leather coming back through t'short leather. Aye.

R – That’s it. Simple.

Aye, simple.

R- A lot of thought ran into it, somebody had brains at one time.


[22]

Aye, Oh aye, still people with brains about. And there’s picture 22, Mary working at … That’s it, she is on her own loom now, she is on one of her own looms, and she is, that's just a picture of her bringing an end through from the other side. Only there again, her hand's moving that fast you can't see the reed hook, but you can see that she's just drawn that end over the slay cap.

R –That’s it, aye.

And this on the front of the slay cap, this .. bent piece of quarter inch iron rod that we can see just in front of Mary's left hand, that's actually a shuttle guard isn't it.

R- That's right. It doesn't keep the shuttle in but, it tries to keep it down if shuttle happens to fly out. There's one or two one-eyed weavers about you know,? But that's original, well, I don’t know about original, but all my life it's been that type of shuttle guard. I mean, they've tried different ideas but there has never been a success yet.

There are some, that you can hinge up out of the way, weren’t there. and they are a fool of a thing.

R- That’s right. Oh aye, dangerous. But it's surprising you know, all my life I have been in textiles and I've never known a serious accident. Shuttles have flown out and bruised people, but .. and I’ve heard about the odd eye being knocked out, but I've never known one. And I mean, when that shuttle leaves t’box it's free.

That's right.

R- But it comes out in such a way, and everything is set for it .. they tell me that it's going in a circle, everything's going in circles. I mean the sweep on t’board, shuttles are swept, all this is swept round, and if you have ‘em picking right it's going round. Same as , you couldn’t have a slay board level [dead straight], it just wouldn't do.

That's the piece of wood that the shuttle actually runs on?

R - Aye.

Yes, I know there is a big art, isn't there, to making slays?

R – Oh, it's a very skilful job. When that shuttle leaves t’box it goes downhill and then uphill. Every time it leaves t’box is down and then uphill, and that way as well.

Aye. So centrifugal force is holding it down on to the slay bottom and it's going through if it's travelling like that, it's trying to push on t'slay bottom. Aye. And on that picture 22, as well, there is a card hung on that loom, stuck on a piece of wire, just in front of, on what you call your scotch dobby isn't it? (700)

R – Aye, it looks like a scotch dobby. Well, that's the 'particulars card’ for everybody's benefit. There's price on it, what counts of weft, how many ends there is in t’reed, width of the cloth, length of the cloth, how many marks, and .. you look at that card and you see, oh well, how many picks there is in t’cloth, everything, counts of weft, counts of twist. It's a record. There is a, there is a government official comes once every blue moon, just to see if the weaver's being twisted.

R - And he can look at that card. look at the pick wheel if he wants to do, and find out if she being twisted or not. More than likely she is.

How does this square up with warps? Like the ones we were talking about today, where you draw more for a stopped loom than you do for having a warp in.

R – Well, them's the rules these days. Aye. Bloody stupid isn't it? But it's true.

Aye. What were we saying? It were one pound?

R - One pound twenty for a stopped loom, and this particular sort this weaver wove last week 68p, and I took this warp to Mona. [One of Ernie’s weavers] She says "I'm not bothered about that" and I say "Well, I'm not bloody bothered either I said - but rules are rules."

So, even in this day and age, apart from time bonus, apart from that they get paid the basic wage, her actual pick bonus on using that loom for a week is, she made 68p on that loom last week, on that, warp. And if there had been no warp in the loom she'd have been paid what they call stop time, and she'd have drawn one pound twenty.

R - That's right.

Which takes a bit of weighing up doesn't it? But I mean, at that wage she is better off with all her looms stopped.

R – Oh, if she'd ten looms stopped she'd be well away, hell she'd have a fortune to come. (35 min)



Now then, 23 is .. picture number 23. Now this is, this is one that fascinates me actually, because I know that there is a lot of history behind this. Now I know that you don't know a lot about when pick clocks came in because it was during the war .. but just tell me what that is there, that we are looking at on picture number 23.

R - Well that's a pick counter, and new weaving prices aren't by the piece, they get paid per one hundred thousand picks and on that particulars card it should say how much per one hundred thousand picks. At modern places it would do but it doesn't here, it just gives t’piece price.

Oh, that price we have on here is piece price, is it?

R – Aye, aye. But I think they have another, they have another card that tells t’pick price.

And .. tell me, a pick, is that once through the loom?

R – Once, once, once through the loom is one pick.

Aye, so t'shuttle from going from a box, across the loom, and back to that box does two picks.

R - That's right. And every one hundred picks .. same as this is at eight hundred. When it's done another one hundred picks it'll go to nine hundred.

Yes. Aye. So, that's what, roughly that's a minute.

R – And, and when it’s a thousand it'll go up one.

Aye, and the weavers fought for them for years didn’t they? (750)

R - Oh aye.

Aye. I know they do tell me, I've got to find out about pick clocks, but they do tell me that they fought for them for years and when they got them they never did them any bloody good, now whether that’s right or not I don't know. [See John Metcalfe transcript on Clough Mill, he said they never used the pick clocks so they weren't universal]

R- No, I can .. oh I don't think they would.



Now then, 24 in the last picture of Mary, now you t .. it's obvious what Mary's doing there, but you tell me what she’s doing.

R - Well it'll be dinner time, I mean we start at eight and finish at half past twelve, and she is having a snap, a cup of tea or coffee and what does that look like, boiled ham? She is a boiled ham type.

Aye, boiled ham sarnny. I think at the time she was slimming a bit, for some ungodly reason, I think them were Ryvitas. Aye, I think so. And she looks to have a dirty book that she's borrowed off t’tackler.

R - Oh she has, it's a Harold Robbins.

I think it were, I think it were actually, I were pulling her leg about it. And, I mean, when you come to think .. where else in British industry would you see somebody sat there having her dinner like that? And she always used to sit in exactly the same place. Mind you there in one thing about it, she's always got a clean tablecloths hasn't she?

R - Oh aye, aye. A bit, it'll be a bit sizy, but still it .. and ...

Aye. And that old tackler's bench, just to the right of Mary, that's what she used to use for putting her stuff on, there is a shopping bag on it. But at one time of day, that bench’d be sacred wouldn't it?

R - Oh, sacred aye, it’d be clean, as well. Yes, that were a sanctum sanctorum, don't go near that bench or they'd have your guts for garters.

Aye, that's it. Aye.

R - That's a tackler's bench.

So they used to have benches in the shed and all, at that time.

R- Oh aye, aye. But this place is running down, and running down, and running down. Well ... it's all gone that. Though occasionally you'd use a bench in the shed.

Aye. Funnily enough I'm just looking at something there on this picture number 24 .. On the loom that Mary's leaning on, if you look at the cloth. If you look at the edge of the cloth nearest to us, you'll see it comes up off the cloth roller at the front, over the sand roller, over the breast beam, and just where you come to the edge where, where it's finished weaving, when she stopped it, there is like a wire fork bent down. Now, tell me about that Ernie.

R - Oh aye. Oh well, that's a wonderful invention. That's ... when t’weft finishes .. well, when the loom's running, every time t’weft comes across what we call t’well here, there is a fork grate, and that fork, the slay moves up, and that fork goes through t’fork grate and lifts .. if there is no weft there it stops. Well it's supposed to do or it'll smash it, but it's supposed to do. So when t’weft is finished that fork stops the loom.

Yes, because if it isn't knocked at the front end it doesn’t lift up at the back, and it grabs hold of that catch that it's laid on, doesn't it, and that stops the loom.

R – Aye, that's the hammer.

Yes, hammer.

R - And it’s worked off a cam on the bottom shaft. Every pick, no, every two picks t'cam lifts this hammer and if the forks still there it pulls it off, and the loom stops. (800)

That's it, because if I have to go to a bearing on a loom, that's the only way I know how to stop a loom, I just put me hand on top of the fork.

R - That's right. But really that's the proper way to stop a loom. Aye.

Aye, aye. Is that right, if you want to stop a loom anyway? (40 min)

R - That's the right way. I mean .. you could pull all this but if you pull all that .. with weaving light sorts, this fork goes sideways and gets one prong pushed sideways, see, and it closes the prong, so that fork can't go through

Can't go through the grate next time that's what.

R - So it weaves without weft, it won't stop.

Aye, that's it. Aye, if it can't go through the grate even if there's no weft there it'll knock it off each time, and that's what you call weaving without weft. Aye.

R - Oh aye, that’s right.

And I’ve heard, I’ve heard’em come down and all and say that one of them’s stitching, Now, what does that means when they're stitching?

R – Well, that means .. it's making a stitch .. instead of t’weft going through t'shed clean, it's going through t’twist, and making a stitch, so what a tackler does is ., straighten the shed up, or maybe,. Shorten the pick, or may be t’shuttle has gone like a canoe, there is all sorts .. a picker broke.

Yes. Yes, I mean, really, from what I can see of tackling. tackling is, it's .. how can I put it, it’s fifty per cent actual mechanical knowledge and then about another fifty per cent made of experience and just being psychic, because …..

R - Aye well, it's common sense really. Once you learn how all these parts work .. well, I mean, there are variations of course, when a bearing gets worn and things like that, but you always adjust. You, well you , you marry ‘em all, and if they are all married they're working, they make t’cloth.

Now, in the old days, when they were on mule cops, and cops were shorter, they had shorter shuttles, and .. just tell me some of the problems that it caused when mill owners decided to go on to bigger yarn packages, and longer shuttles.

R - Oh well. It does cause problems. When, when you used to .. I mean, an old fashioned shuttle would be at least two inches shorter so you'd more space.

You, you can, you can see that from the shuttle tray can't you.

R- Aye, that.

…how much shuttle hangs over the end of the shuttle tray.

R - That's its that's it, aye, aye.

While the older ones would just sit in it nicely, wouldn't they?

R – Oh, plenty of room plenty of room. And you see, when the loom is picking with this shuttle, it has to pick later so that the shed's opened and shuttle's in. But if it is the shorter shuttle it could ... wait a minute, I'm getting a bit mixed up there.

No, you are right.

R - A longer shuttle's in the shed quicker than a short shuttle.

Yes. So your shed's got to be formed earlier than….

R- That's right.

So in other words the timing of that loom's got to be spot on for a big shuttle.

R - Oh aye.

Now tell me, another thing about that, I mean, really, the reason for going on to longer shuttles was to give them longer weaving times on a shuttle, so that they could get weavers working more looms weren't it? It was one of the things that…

R - That's right, that were part of it.

That were part of it. But when they did it, instead of altering the slays on the looms, altering the boxes, like having them re-slayed to give them more room at each side, they did 'em the cheap way, didn't they? And just carried on with what they had, but it meant that the timing's got to be so much better on that loom.

R - Oh aye. That's right. But they've lots, they've lots of problems today there didn't use to be.

Which . . . Well, that's one of the things that I was on to you when we were on about the size of a tackler’s set. I mean, in the old days, I mean, one of the things which would have meant that .. you know, when they were working on a set of hundred and forty, hundred and forty-four looms one thing which would be in their favour would be working with short shuttles.

R- Oh aye, made a big difference.

And I mean, that’d make a big difference, would it, during the work?

R - Oh aye, must do. Would do, aye. I mean, in my early days as a weaver they were all small shuttles, and we used to kiss 'em and suck t’weft through, through t’eye of the shuttle you see?

Yes, that's it, yes and you had……

R - And, another thing, this is a self threading shuttle, you get problems with these shuttles that you never got with the old fashioned shuttle, because there is a slit here, and the problem is to keep weft in that slit and through t’eye. Many a time ., well that's why they are filled with fur, you never used to see shuttles with fur in, very rare.

When, when there were kissing shuttles? Aye.

R - Just now and again, if you'd a lively weft.

What's the idea of putting that rabbit fur in the shuttle?

R- Oh, it's to control t’weft, to stop it flying about.

Aye, put a brake on it like, just keep it .. that’s it, aye.

R - That's right, clutch . And they won't run without fur

Well done Mary. Right, I think we'll leave Mary alone now. (45 min)

SCG/24 September 2002
7959 words.



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/10

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 18 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


Now then, when we finished last time you'd just got a job tackling at Moss, and you were learning tackling down there. And you'd moved from being one of the, one of the lowest of the low, the weavers, to be one of the aristocracy.

R. - There were many, …That's true. Aye.

Now, nowadays when we get a, say we get a learner in here to learn tackling – I’m talking about a young lad, obviously - first of all they have to learn to weave, which obviously wasn't needed in your case because you already were a weaver.

R- That’s true.

... And they start off doing a little here and there, and they gradually get them into tackling. They go to night school, learn all the theory and this that and the other. Now, was that how it happened in your case, or was it different, how did you learn your tackling? (50)

R- Did I tell you how I got this job at t’Moss? I did. Well, how did I learn my tackling. Well, I were weaving, and spare time learning to tackle. Two blokes, actually, were looking after me, and well, dinner times, evenings, Saturday mornings, any spare time. It's better now, if, if a lad came in here as an apprentice tackler he'd be an apprentice tackler, he wouldn't be weaving. He’d be working with the tacklers all the time. But in my case it were like .. weaving and apprentice tackling. These two fellows, if they had a job that were a bit ... I mean, tackling is mostly, is common sense, and when you'd been a weaver a few years you, if you are interested you get to know like how it, how it works you know different things, but there’s certain jobs that you would never pick up as a weaver. Like timing the pick, and fitting wheels and shafts, and things like that, making keys, it all takes time. (100) And there’s like dodges that you learn, and well time went on and things were going all right, and I were in a happier position financially, and it had a bit of prestige value, like you know: 'That's Roberts coming for a pint, tackler’ and everybody spit in the spittoons. I had six months like that. There were two mills at Widdups, number one and number two, and I were in number two mill. And I was, one morning I was smothered in a cold, I could hardly breath, and me bloody chest were bad, bad head ache. I thought "I'll have to go home.” Oh, I felt really poorly. And this manager, Archy Rhodes come into the mill, he said "John Widdup wants you." "Eh I thought, what the hell does he want me for?" So I went into the warehouse and he were there was John Widdup. "Now then Ernest” he says, “Jack Halstead’s gone home poorly. I want you to go on his set”. Christ Almighty I thought, disaster, on me own, hundred looms. Anyway I thought, it's muck or nettles and funnily enough I (5 min)(150) felt better, me flu must have flew away. So I went and ... went to this bench, spotlessly clean, bags of leather and that hung up you know and tools on the bench. I had a waistcoat, we wore waistcoats in them days, with pockets in. So I donned that and stood beside the bench waiting for the first job. And funny enough I remember the first job I had on me own; a weaver come and said "Weft’s catching at t'side." See? I thought right. So I waited while she got back to her looms and then I went down. But for a few days it were hell for leather, they were testing me, see? And if I made a mistake they’d grin and laugh and sneer. I made one or two mistakes. Anyway, that were only after six months you know, so I weren't doing so bad, and there were an old tackler there, old Joe Askham, he were seventy odd years old, and if I got (200) stuck I used to go and ask him. Very kind he were, he told me what to do, and he learned me one or two little tricks that, that only we know ... you think, you like to think that way you know, little dodges. And .. well I heard that this Jack Halstead had to retire, he’d sommat gone wrong with his ticker and he’d to finish work. Well - I thought - then I might have this set like. You know? Anyway, I used to go home for me dinner, lunch, I went home one dinner time and come back to work, mill started and I went into the mill, went to the bench … it were like mother Hubbard’s bloody cupboard, every tool had gone. Now this Jack Halstead had come down, and gathered all his tools up. When a tackler retired he used to say he'd sell his tools to you. He didn't need them. Anyway, he took every bloody tool away. I thought "Well, that's a bugger." So I walked out of the shed and ... John Widdup. “What’s to do Ernest - he said - you look very pensive and upset." I says, “Halstead’s been down and taken every tool." He says "What do you need." "Oh I need certain things, Like I can (250) borrow drifts and things like that but I need files and leather cutters and punches and one thing and another." He says "Take this note to McGregor {ironmonger, and get what you want.” “Oh” I say, “I can't pay, not all at once.” He said "Don't bother about paying." And that firm are considered to be mean. And he sent me up to McGregor’s and I could get anything I needed. Well I just got what I needed, that's all, I didn't like .. kill the goose that laid the golden eggs. And I thought “Well he were a real bloody gentleman with me." And I never paid for them tools. I did mention it one time and he (l0 min) says “Oh, forget it” because at that time they were making a lot of money you know, manufacturers. Still, that's beside the point, I didn't care how much money he made, they were paying me and things were going along smoothly.

How much were you getting about, then, from a set of a hundred looms, roughly.

R – Oh, thirteen quid about.

That would be a good wage.

R - It were a good wage, they've always had decent wages, tacklers,

There's two little things, they've just cropped up there, if I don’t ask you now I’ll forget. You mentioned, you said when you were in the pub, mentioned about spittoons, did they still have spittoons in pubs?

R - Uh aye, same as, I used to go in t’Seven Stars and they'd spittoons up to a few years since.

Aye.

R- They had two daughters there, you know, Peggy and Greta, and Peggy told me herself, she didn't mind the life she said the worst job were cleaning the spittoons out. (300) Aye .. Now, wait a minute, Seven Stars, would Airton have that then?

R - No. No. Airton came after, he came after Robinson, Preston Robinson it were.

I was just wondering because I used to know Gladys well. Wait a minute, that's beside the point. Another thing, I want to bring this in now in case we forget it later on; you were on about changing wheels. Now .. oh first of all, you tell me what you have to change wheels for on a loom. You know, gear wheels.

R – Aye, well pick wheels. Well you change them for quality of cloth, but I didn't really mean pick wheels, I meant driving wheels. You know, big wheels.

Oh aye, yes that's it, aye, the bull wheel at the end yes. Because I remember you once telling me something, and as I say I want to bring this in now and then we don't forget it. Most pick wheels on the motion, at the side, here, have the numbers cast into them in the web.

R – That’s right.

And you can just look at the side of a loom and you can see what number of wheel's on there. And that wheel is also, those wheels are marked down on the warp card aren't they, on the progress card that's with the warp.

R - Yes.

Now, you once mentioned something to me, and I've seen them, pick wheels that didn't have the number on the web, they were cast on, they were punched on the boss, inside. Now, you tell me about that.

R – Aye, that's right. Well, what do you want to know about it.

Well…

R – With numbers on. Well, in fact I've seen pick wheels with no number on at all, you’d to count them, count the teeth. See? (350)

Yes. Now, I remember when you were telling me about that you said that if … you laughed and you winked at me and you said “If the number’s on the boss, the weaver can't see it.”

R - Oh aye. Oh well, that’s true, I remember saying that, but whatever number’s on that wheel, that's the number of picks per inch.

Aye. And I mean, would it be possible, if somebody really wanted to twist a weaver, if they had a wheel where the numbers didn’t show, could they have the weaver actually doing more picks to the inch than they thought they were? I mean I’m talking about ... it wouldn’t matter nowadays, because they get paid on the pick, but in the old days, It altered t’price of a cloth when they were getting paid on the piece, wouldn’t it?

R – Oh aye, but t’weavers were crafty enough to know that. They knew how long it took to weave a certain type of cloth.

Aye, that's it, aye.

R - And in any case, merchants knew what type of cloth they were buying. If they bought cloth, say, fifty pick to the inch, and it only had forty-eight, they'd want to know why. Well, In fact they'd send it back.

Yes. And yet there were such things as bastard reeds, 1 know that isn’t picks, that's number of ends in. [a warp]

R – Aye, well, that doesn’t show like.

But that's something you know, 1 remember you once saying something to me, that was another thing that I wanted to bring in, you were saying that Widdups were supposed to be mean like, you know? But .. I've forgotten now, I don't know whether it was you or somebody else once told me that, as far as they knew, Widdups never used bastard reeds. (15 Min)

R - I don’t think they did. They guaranteed all their cloth, and they were, as far as I was concerned they were, they were honest dealers, all the family, they must have been. Because all depressions running, they could sell their cloth (400)

At that time at Moss, when we're talking about, was there anybody else in the Moss besides Widdup?

R – Yes, there were .. what they called Ellerbank [This might be an error, it could be Alderton Brothers Ellerbank were weaving in Wellhouse in 1941. They were in Moss Shed in 1957 with 111 looms.] next door, that were a manufacturing company.

Ellerbank Manufacturing. That's it, yes I've got it yes.

R - And next door to them Horsfields I think there were.

Aye, J&M Horsfield.

R – Aye, and then Blackburn Holden’s.

Aye, so they’re Blackburn Holden’s that's there.

R - That's it, aye.

… Bendem now.

R - Aye. They were part of t'fiddle when this silly bloody government scheme, well I think it were silly. When they were contracting the industry for some reason.

Aye, oh aye, we'll get on to that about contracting the industry, you see. You told me you thought that there weren't much more you could do but ... we've a lot to do yet. When ... you said that you were working in number two shed, and then you were sent into number one shed, were you still on Widdup's looms?

R – Oh, they'd two mills, they'd two sheds.

Yes, what I'm getting at is that, even though Widdup were letting room and power, their tacklers were just tackling on their looms, and not the other people’s.

R - Oh they were like departments on their own these two mills. There were a wall between, but they were both Widdups. And then dividing Widdup's from Ellerbank were a wall. They were walls funny enough, but I’ve known boards in mills, just like partitions.

Yes, easily taken out, aye. How many looms did they have in there, Widdups, at that time?

R – There’d be roughly six hundred in each shop. [432 according to trade directory.]

And, we are talking now about, what, nineteen-forty-six, seven?

R – No, forty-seven, aye, forty-seven.

Forty-seven, yes. Anyway, I've interrupted you there. So you are on this set you've got these tools. Did you actually get that set of Halstead’s? (450)

R-Yes, and I were on that set eleven years.

Ah, so we are coming up to the scrapping scheme then.

R- Well, we're coming to scrapping now.

Yes. So tell me what happened at Moss. You were, you were on them sets, tell me what happened when they started to go down, when they first started to realise that things weren't just ...

R – Well, it were like, well I mean, it were like a bolt from the blue, just a notice on the door "Owing to …" Ah well, I don't know the exact wording, but it were a government scheme. A manufacturer that went out of business got sixty pounds for a loom that was producing and forty pounds, for one that weren't, also the scrap value. So with their twelve hundred looms they were going to come out with a lot of money, weren't they. But anyway, it were sorry day. And t’same day Roger, the son, came to me and said, would I stop to the end, because it were the bloody end. Aye I said and when I leave here I'm chucking my bloody tools in the canal. I've finished with textiles. That were t’way I were thinking then, I were that bloody disappointed. It was as bad as going in t’army because I were really happy there.

Were they in full production?

R – Well, all t'looms weren’t full up but they were in full production as far as it’d go, you know. They’d have six hundred running. And anyway it started running down then. First to finish were the taper, and then well, one by one all these .. there were like a preparation department, they (20 min)(500) all finished, until it came that there were no, the only production, the only warps in the mill were in the looms you see? And there were .. well, there’d be six tacklers to start with, and gradually we got down to five, four, three, two, and then McNab's [mine]. Because what we had to do was move, as a weaver finished she might have one or two looms still with warps in, you know, so we moved them warps into another weavers [looms] until finally there were just me left with one loom. And .. I were weaving, running this loom you know, to weave it out, and I finally got t’mark coming in and I went for the manager, Cecil, he were still there, there were me and him, last. So I went for him. I said "Come on Cecil, you can put the last shuttle in for John Widdup & Sons.” “Aye, all right lad" he says. So he followed me into t’mill and put this shuttle in, and started the loom up and it wove this .. about a foot of cloth. I says "That's it," And there were bloody tears running off his chin end, it were his life coming to an end, he were .. you know, heart broken. He said “I never thought this would happen.” I says "Ah well, it's bloody well happened, we're both in t’shit." So that were it. And I come out with .. about hundred pound, redundancy. But I didn't, I didn't throw me tackle in t’canal. I thought I’d .. you never know, I might need ‘em again. No …

Cecil wove that off, and he finished. Now, I know that there is a little tale about Cecil that goes with that.

R – Where?

About going for a rise.

R - Oh aye. Oh that'll be a few years before then, before it happened you know. His wife told me, his wife used to go round with the tea. Now, that (550) were an innovation, going round with tea, see, but they were up to, trying to make things attractive to get weavers, they were worth their weight in gold. And Cecil decided to go in for a rise. So he had it to go in front of the tribunal.

The tribunal being old John and three brothers. Aye.[No, just the three brothers.]

R - Bosses. Aye, bosses. And after giving him a good talking to, and a pep talk I suppose, they gave him a shilling a week, and on his way out they said "And don't come again." A shilling a week to the manager.

And that fellow, and that fellow were crying as he wove….

R - Yes.

It's understandable, we keep laughing but ...

R - Oh yes, yes, he were crying. Yes he were heart broken. Oh he’s still living, he’s knocking on now .. talking to him t’other week, telling me about a prostate gland operation.

Everything removed ... !

R – No, I think they must have left a bit in, because he had tubes in him, and it were going into a bottle were this tube. I couldn’t get bloody rid of him. I could hardly walk when I did walk away, I had pains all over. He says "This liquid looked like .. " Oh, he said sommat went wrong, he says, and he were watching this liquid dripping into the bottle, and he says "First it were amber coloured ..he says - and it finished up, like Guinness he says – “so I shouted for t’nurse." And he were in hospital a few weeks, he must have got some infection he said. Anyway he’s all right now. He’s, Hee Hee, he says "If ever you want to have that operation, don't be frightened."

Well, that were what we told poor old Sidney when he went for his cataract.

R- Ah, Sidney, aye.

1 had him convinced that there were nothing to it. I said “Me dad's been." And me dad had told me, it were t’worst bloody thing ever happened to him. But I got Sidney convinced before he went. Anyway, when he come back he said "You and your dad." Oh it were, I went to visit him, that were it. "Ah - he says you and your dad - he says." I said "Well - I said - what the bloody hell did you want me to tell you before you went?" Aye, anyway, there you are, we are digressing again. Now, when Widdup's wove out, was anybody else left weaving there, or had all the others finished as well? [funnily enough, as I edit this in 2013 I go to have a cataract removed from my left eye in about three weeks but these days it really is quick and painless (I hope!)]

R - They were all finishing.

And …

R - But now, here comes the fiddle. Blackburn Holden's finished, but they've opened another shop up and called it Bendem, and that were going on all over bloody Lancashire. Later when we, you know, we read about it and heard about it (600)(25 Min)

Aye that……Different firm.

R – Yes, shut down and opened next door.

And about the looms? Because those looms are supposed to be broken up.

R - They were all broken up, them looms were smashed up, they were, they were smashed up just where they stood. But first of all these breakers came in and broke the looms, and .. Cooper’s Loom maker's traveller came in. I were friendly with him, I'd known him a long while. He says “Well, this in another shop going to the dogs.” I said Aye." He says "Can I go in and have a look?” I says “Aye, go on, I’ll come with thee." So we walked into the mill, and he says, “That won't do." Now, all they’d done was break t’cross rails and t’loom. just come in, you know, leaning on the shafts. I said "Well, how dost a mean that won't do?” He says "They can weld them buggers together again." And he must have seen some official .. following day these loom breakers were there again, instead of using a bloody pound hammer they were using ten pound hammers, and they smashed them up, they smashed them to smithereens that time.

Who were doing that, were it Rushworths?

R – I don't know.

No. Aye, because of course that’d be a right fiddle, wouldn't it. You smash the cross rails, drop 'em, and the only .. well I mean, even if you didn't weld them up all you needed were new cross rails for them looms, and they could go for export.

R - It were done though, it were done, it were done at Earby. They welded the cross rails up.

You actually know about that?

R – Well, Fred knows, Fred Inman told me. It were the biggest bloody fiddle since that South Sea Bubble!! Were it the South Sea Bubble?

That's it, the South Sea Bubble, aye, that’s right, there you are you see. Aye…..

R - Milking the government, and the silly buggers didn’t, they couldn’t, I mean it's still going one, they're getting milked every day.

And so the engine'd still be running?

R – Aye, it were running, aye.

Yes, because .. who were the last to weave out, do you know? Were it
Widdups that was t'last ...

R - I think it .. aye, it'd be Widdups I think.

So, engine'd stop then. So you didn't bob down to the engine house to watch t’engine stop, or you just stopped it, or … (650)

R - No, I didn't. I were, I think I were a bit .. you know, upset. Though I were friendly with Fisher, it were Fisher. Fisher'd be t’driver then.

Aye, would that be Walter or his dad? His dad.

R - His dad.

Yes. What was his first name?

R - Stanley.

Stanley, that's it, Stanley Fisher.

R - He used to let me start it, occasionally. I used to go in and camp him.

Aye, it were a great engine that.

R- Aye, it were.

I've to get on to Newton, I have to do that yet with Newton, but that was a very good engine at Moss.

R - He used to put engines in, you know, did Stanley. He told me some interesting stories about travelling about putting engines in.

'Who were he working for? Burnley……….[Ironworks]

R - I don't know.

Burnley Ironworks I think it were.

R - Possibly.

Yes. I have an idea he did work for Burnley Ironworks. I think I've heard Newton mention it.

R - But all t’years I were at Moss that engine never stopped, not during working hours.

Yes, it's a fine record. I've stopped twice.

R – Well, I don't remember it stopping twice.

Yes, I've stopped once for a hot bearing and once when that rope went, do you remember that rope went up on the cloth looking machines that day?

R - Oh aye.

When Ernie... we’ll put that in on this tape. I were running one day and Ernie .. cloth looker Ernie, I can never remember …Ernie Whittaker!

R - Whittaker.

Ernie Whittaker come down. He says “Can you come up here and have a look at this?" And I walked out of t’engine house door, and I couldn't see up the warehouse, it were full of dust. I says "What the hell's going on?" He says “I think there's something wrong with that rope up at t’top." Anyway, I got half way up and I could see what were wrong. One strand of the rope had broken, and it were flogging round as it were flying round. As it flogged round it were knocking all the dust off t'topping and I could see what were going to happen, the end of that rope was going to flick on to something like a whip and wind round it, and it were going to keep going, and sommat were .. [going to go] and they were all stood round watching it. So of course I shouted to 'em to get out of the way and run back in here and stopped t’engine right sharp and then gone up, cut t’rope off and started up again so it never bothered anything like, you know, tapes or owt. But ... that were one time I know.

R - Did you stop that day we had t'fire?

No, that were a funny thing.

R – Eh, laugh, best laugh I've had for years. Buzzer were going, alarms, and I was sat in t’storeroom I think. It were going a long while when I walked into t’warehouse. and our Fred ..[Ernie’s brother who wove at Bancroft] I say "What’s up?" And he just put his hand up like that, and run into t’mill see? So I walked to the shed door (700)(30 min) and there's smoke, and Fred's covered with bloody foam, and there is only him fighting this fire, and .. he finished up with a teapot. Whittaker come with a teapot full of water. And ... well, I were laughing for days, like I said before, I’ve a perverted sense of humour. And Fred said to me, laughing in his presence you know, about this bloody fire and what a good fire fighter he were. "Aye - he says - next time I've a bloody fire - he says, I’ll go to t’office and tell 'em.”

The funny thing about that was, you know .. well I say the funny thing, really it just shows how silly people are, meself included, because that day .. when the fire alarm goes off in t’mill, if anybody breaks one of the glasses on the fire alarms in the mill, there is a bell in here rings as well. [In the engine house] As well as the siren going off there's a bell rings. Now, as you know, a cotton mill is a very dangerous place if there is a fire, it can flare up just like that ...

R- Oh yes, aye.

Now, when that fire alarm went that day, two things should have happened, every weaver should leave .. in an orderly fashion….

R- Aye, filed out.

Stopped their looms and filed towards the exit, and the engineer, in an orderly fashion should have stopped his engine and gone up to see what the trouble was. But what In fact happened, that bell went off, and I’m sat in the chair that you're... where you are sitting, and I thought “Christ Almighty - I thought - some stupid bugger's put a bloody roller end through t’fire alarm." You know, through t’glass and broken the glass. I wandered up this side of the engine, got me screwdriver and t’key for t’glass got a glass and sauntered quietly up to the mill, you know. But it weren't until I walked into the shed and saw Billy Two Rivers stood there with a big hammer next to the stop button for t’engine that I realised that there was a fire. And he looked at me, he says "Shall I hit it?” I said “No!” I says - for Christ’s sake, don't do that, we haven't got any glasses for them!" And everybody was still weaving in spite of the alarm going off. But by that time they’d put the fire out by the time I got to it. But, and I thought to myself after, I thought "Stanley - I thought how bloody stupid can you get?" It could have been a disaster you know?

R- Oh aye, I never found out how that fire happened. There were no mechanical failure on t’loom, no hot parts, it were a mystery. Must have been … Charlie, he is supposed to haunt Bancroft, Charlie Brown. (750)

Who's Charlie Brown?

R - He used to be a tackler here, comical character. Sometimes comes in the storeroom, sits up on t’top there. I told him about it. "Get back up there Charlie.” I’ll say.

Is that right?

R - Oh aye, I bet you if you come in t'storeroom next week and say "Where’s Charlie?” Somebody'll say "Oh, hasn’t been in today, he might… Oh he's up there."

Well, all the time I've been here I didn't know that.

R – Yes, sometimes there is lumps of bloody iron and all sorts come tumbling down.

Aye ., Well, he's never bothered me when I've been here at night.

R – No, well he doesn't know you, he knows me.

Anyway, so there we are, we are down at, we are down at Moss ... and they've
woven out. So, Ernest, with his hundred pound redundancy in his pockets is now one of the, one of the mass of unemployed.

R - Redundant.

Unemployed, well it's t’same thing.

R - Aye it is.

Same thing. And … one thing, just let's see what your thoughts are about this before we go on to the next job .. Have you any definite opinions about redundancy, redundancy money, redundant pay? One way or the other?

R - Oh, I don't think it's any good, not redundancy money.

Yes, why not?

R – Well, if you are up here in a job, I mean, what did that hundred pound represent to me? I'd be on about sixteen or seventeen pound a week then, roughly six weeks wages, that were no bloody good . Out of work, looking for another job, and there were a lot of tacklers out of work then you know. That were it for me, kaput, I had no friends and relations in, on the committee, because that's a bloody racket, always has been.

What do you mean, a racket?

R- Well, take him that I call Woodpecker for example, Albert Thornber, he has two sons all three of them were tacklers, none of them ever out of the shop. Albert were on the bloody committee. And then after Albert came off the committee, Albert number two went on the committee. Oh, I've told him to his face, I'm not talking behind his back. And he wouldn't admit it of course, but it's true, without a doubt, it used to get me bloody mad. (800)(35 Min)

I suppose really though, that's human nature, isn’t it in a way. I know it’s, I know it's rotten if you're in that position .. but, I mean, it's human nature that.

R - It is human nature, you look after your own, aye. But it's bitter medicine when you're not in the circle.

Oh I'd .. I quite agree with you, you know, I'm just saying that that's you know, it's just .. it's human nature isn’t it.

R- Well, there were no tackling so .. I had to make fresh fields. I were living at Nelson at t’time, so ...

Were you living at Nelson while you were…

R - I were there while I were working at Widdups.

Aye .. I didn't, I didn't realise that.

R – Oh, a few years.

Whereabouts in Nelson?

R - Raikeshouse Road. And, I don't know how I got here, but I went to Cotton Tree and I learned to be a High Speed Beamer - I'm still in textiles - and .. I were up there a fair while. Funny enough I were, it were like in a cellar this high speed beaming department, and I were working one day, and a voice behind me says "Hello Ernest, how’s things?" And I turned round and it were Roger Widdup. He were, he got a job there as salesman, and we had a little chat like. Oh, but he were going to start hundred looms up. When Widdups closed down he came to me and asked me would I ever, would I work for him if he started this little mill up. I said “Aye, certainly I will." but it didn’t come off. And anyway, I'm high speed beaming now. Interesting job that, I were happy enough. And I were there .. couple of years.

It’d be about 1958 you went to Cotton Tree wouldn’t it?

R - Aye.

Forty-seven, eleven years ….

R – Aye, about 1958. And I think most of t'tacklers must have died off or sommat, but there were one or two jobs come to light. Oh, but in the meantime I'm going to night school.

Aye…..?

R - Wife said "Well, you like tackling, why don't you learn automatics?" And she persuaded me to go.

Where did you go? (850)

R - To Nelson Tech. And I learn, you know, the grounding. And I left high speed beaming and I went tackling to Langroyd .

When you say automatics, what were they, were they Northrops?

R – Northrops. But they were .. converted Lancashire looms. There had been about five hundred tacklers on this bloody set, nobody wanted it, that's why Ernest got it. And it, it nearly .. eh, talk about work .. centre weft forks, and you've to get under the looms you know to, to fix ‘em. I worked there about nine months, and I were under this loom one day, and I looked up and I thought .. with me arms up, you know, me bloody arms were aching, trying to get this set screw out, I thought “ Ernest, you are wrong in your bloody head." I was spending more time on me back than a prostitute. I'm not joking, I used to go in on t’early shift at six o'clock and I'd be on me bloody back at five past, and somebody'd says "Shift's finishing ..” I'd get up after that then. Eh, I were absolutely knackered. And they called t’manager Mr Blackburn, so I went .. they had a storekeeper there .. good mill, still going, one of, one of, it's Courtaulds now. Well, it might have been then, I don't know if it were but ... it was a decent wage as well. And, well, I had some fun there. I'll tell you a little story about this centre weft fork job you know, they were that bloody worn out, nobody could mend them. Oh, before I'd decided to pack in, about a month before I went to Mr Blackburn, I said "I want to finish - I said I can't go on any longer" I said to him "I'm spending more bloody time on me back than a prostitute.” "Why, what's up?” he said. I says “These bloody centre weft forks." He says "There is a centre weft fork man coming on Monday." “Oh” I says – “that’s a rare do then. Oh, OK then” – I said. So off I went. And at Monday this fellow come, they called him Cyril, and he were a check tackler.

When you say he were, I’m sorry to interrupt you, when you say he was a check tackler, he didn't come from Czechoslovakia!

R - Oh no.

He was used to working on …

R - on making check cloth, aye. Check patterns.

That’s it, aye . Aye, that's it.

R - Circular box looms. And he were a nice fellow. But he'd to give, he had to give up tackling 'cause he couldn't grip, he got bloody arthritis in his hands. And .. we used to work together on these bloody centre weft forks you know and we worked, both of us working hard. And he says to me one day "Ernest - he says - I might as well have stopped [stayed. Kept on.] bloody tackling - he says - I'm working harder than ever." I says "Aye, I says - what about me on me own before?” And a day or two later he come to (900)(40 Min) me and he said "There's two tacklers wanted at Black Carr Mill” and they were circular box looms. He says "Come with me, thee’ll do the donkeywork and I'll do t’thinking.” I says “Aye, it's a good idea that Cyril” So, I were like anticipating this bluff, but it didn’t come up, his bloody fingers swelled up like balloons, it [the arthritis] come to each hand. And he said “Oh, now I’ll have to pack everything in - he said – I’ll have to retire, I can't go on like this no longer." That were an opportunity missed. Anyway, that closed down not long after, Black Carr. So I'm back on me back and I went to this Mr Blackburn, I said .. Oh, I went to the storeroom first. I said to this Jim, they called him Jim, “have you a bit of paper and a pencil?" He says “ Art’a backing horses?" I said "No, I'm, I'm writing my bloody notice out" see? So, I wrote me notice out and I took it to Blackburn. I says "There you are" “Nay - he says - leaving us?" I says “I bloody well am - I says - It's killing me - I says - if I don't get out they'll carry me out!” and it were, aye it were, I was thin as a bloody lath. So I packed that job in and I'd no job. Disaster again. So I had been out of work a day or two. I couldn’t sign on you know, but I were like, I had plenty of feelers out, looking for a job.

When you say you couldn't sign on, you couldn't sign on because you'd sacked yourself.

R - Oh aye, aye, I sacked meself.

How long did you have to do then, on t’dole, before you could sign on?

R – Well, six weeks.

Aye, six weeks, before you could draw anything.

R – Oh, I had to get a job before then, I had the bloody wife on me back. And .. I were reading t’pink, [evening paper, at that time it was printed on pink paper] I were getting t’pink every night, you know, looking at t’situations vacant .. and may be t’second or t’third night high speed beamer wanted at Smith & Nephew at Barrowford. [I think Ernie means Brierfield ] So I went and got this job, and .. I had been on sixteen pound a week at Bannister's at Trawden, on day work.

Tackling.

R – No, high speed beaming.

Oh aye, yes, yes.

R - That were like, high speed beaming, and then tackling at .. and then I’m out of work, and I'm getting this high speed beaming job at Brierfield. Brierfield .. Aye, Brierfield. "Start Monday night” see? So I reported at Monday night and this departmental manager's taking me down to the job, and we are walking down a long ramp, like, towards this beaming room. I says "Oh, by the way., how much is wage,?" "Twelve pound odd. Permanent nights.” (950) So I … halt, and he looked at me this fellow. 1 says "Did I hear you right? Twelve pound odd?" “Yes - he says - that's the rate." I say “Well my bloody name isn't Aly Khan, I were born and bred in this country - I says - you've got hold of the wrong body - I says - Stuff it." and out I come. Twelve pound odd for permanent bloody nights, what a come down, I'm getting back to the pre-war days. So that were it, I’m still out of work, Where the hell did I go from there?

Oh, we've had a bit of a pause there, because Ernest Roberts, tackler, has forgotten where the bloody hell he were working in 1960. So sometime before next week no doubt he'll remember. Aye, there's about ten minutes left on this tape, so we are not going to waste it, we're just sitting here talking about man’s inhumanity to man. This bit can be edited out afterwards, yes, posterity can do what the hell it wants to about it. By next week you'll have remembered.

R - Oh yes.

You'll remember where you were and we can, we can get round to it. But it's just like we were saying, I tell the kids. I've always, told the kids the same you know … ever since .. oh, since they were old enough to listen. People laughed at me, many a time, I've always talked to the kids as if they are grown up.

R – Well, I think that's a good idea really, they can't know too much.

Well I think there's too many people talk to kids, and they talk to ‘em as children and kids aren't children, they're little grown ups.

R - Well they are, certainly.

They've as much brain as we have.

R – Aye, but I mean .. I don't remember my father, but I remember me mothers and I’ll remember her to the day I die. She used to talk to us as grown ups and when we did grow up and got into that adolescence stage, getting ponced up to go out, she told us, all three of us together, "If you get a girl in t’family way, you'll marry her, no matter who it is." Luckily there were only one of us did it, and it weren't me!

Aye ... well, it's t’same with the kids, I mean it's just like I've been saying. (45 Min) it's the same, I mean I have three daughters. I mean, there is Margaret going out tonight, she won't be in till two o'clock, but I don't worry.

R - Oh no, it's no use worrying.

Too late. If you've not reared them, if you've not reared them by the time they are sixteen, they're seventeen, it's a waste of bloody time, too late to start having sleepless nights. And you know, that's t’trouble with biggest part of them nowadays.

R - They're restricted may be, and then they, when they get, you know, out, they go wild, It does happen.

I'll tell you sommat, I’ll tell you something, people think, they think I'm a heartless bugger. I've always told them kids that when they get married they pay for their own wedding reception.

R - Oh, oh .. aye, well, I've never heard that before. Usually t’father pays for t’bride's wedding reception.

That's its but .. t’daughters .. I've always told them the same because (1000) when me and Vera got married, we had to pay for us own, and it meant that we could invite who we wanted.

R - Oh aye.

And I says to them, I say "Now, it's all right - you pay for your own. You can invite who the bloody hell you want” I said “If you don't want to invite me you've no need to do, and if you don't want to have a white wedding you've no need to have one." because everybody doesn't want one now, you know. They'd rather spend the money.

R - Oh they don't, no.

I can remember going and spending, we .. me and Vera went and bought ... I mean we did it all wrong, we went and bought a wedding dress together and bought it in Burnley, and t’bill come to twenty-one pound and one shilling. And they wouldn't knock me the bloody shilling off! And do you, now, it's still hanging in the wardrobe at home, and I look at it many a time, and I say 'Hell, Vera, you know, twenty-one pound one shilling.

R - Twenty-one pound one shilling.

But they, though the thing about it is, I'm not so heartless, so I’ve always told them. until they leave home they can have every bloody ha’penny they earn, I’ll keep them.

R - Aye you might. Aye, aye.

And they save up for themselves. And I reckon that that's a better way to do it, because that means that if you keep drumming it into their heads, by the time they get married they are used to looking after the money.

R - Aye ... Aye it's true that.

Think of the number of people that get wed and they've never handled money in their lives, they're bloody lost.

R - Well I can’t say I handled much money t’first time I were married. I’d, I’d, well I got engaged, did I tell you about getting engaged?

No.

R - When George Wraw’s pawn shop were on Church Street? Me and Olive were looking in t’window one night and there were a ring in there, a diamond ring, forfeited pledge, thirty bob. "Let's get engaged" she says. Well, I happened to be carrying at the time, [Ernie means he had some money in his pocket] so I got this ring, thirty bob. It were a solitaire diamond, you could see it without one of them bloody watch glasses, and it fitted her and we came out of the shop and she put it on and we went in Old Duke’s [Duke’s pie shop] to celebrate, with four pennorth of tater pie apiece. Well, that were our happy engagement party.


SCG/26 September 2002
7654 words



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/11

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON SEPTEMBER 1ST 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.



Aye, we are rolling again, Ernie.

R- Aye.

Well, I think we’d better warn whoever's listening to this tape in a hundred years, if they, if they notice that we get slightly more relaxed as the evening goes on, it’s because we've got quart bottle of Jim Bean, Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey on the table. And that's the lubricant tonight.

R- Yes, I’ll just have a little sip now.

But we are not having a lot, we are not having a lot, just a little drop. Now, the last tape we made, we .. we had a slight mental aberration and couldn’t remember where we'd worked after the Aly Khan job at Brierfield.

R- We got to when I were going down to t’high speed beaming

That’s it, and you asked him how much the wage were, and did a quick shunt…

R - That's right, and I turned on me heel.

That’s it, yes.

R- Haven't I been to Veevers yet? Brierfield?

No. No.

R- Oh well, maybe a day or two later I was still out of work. And I went to Veevers at Brierfield, for weaving, because there were a surplus of tacklers at the moment ...

Shortage of tacklers?

R- Aye ... Not a shortage of tacklers, shortage of jobs.

Oh, shortage of jobs, sorry Ernie, aye.

R- Aye. And me being a lone bird, paddling me own canoe, there had to be a shortage of tacklers before I could move in. No influence you see, the story of my life. Anyway, I went to Veevers. I'd heard it were a good money shop, (50) I'm weaving and they were all stripes, automatics. I knocked on the office door and the manager said "Can you weave?" I said "Aye" "Come with me" he says. So he took me in at the shed door and broke a couple of ends out. "Take them up” he says so I took them up. "Start it up, you can start right now it you want." So I started weaving there, and there were a few Pakistanis weaving, and after about a fortnight I found out that .. I called them BORs, British other ranks .. we’re getting paid for having Unifils on looms, and the Pakistanis weren’t, and I wanted to know the reason why. Big do's and little do's, it got sorted out, the Pakistanis were paid as well, but Ernest got the order of the bullet, I got sacked.

You, you weren’t in tUnion?

R- Oh yes, I was still in the tacklers union.

But tell me something, tell me the reason why you did that.

R- Well, brotherhood of man, and another thing .. way I thought, if they could get away with paying bloody Pakistanis less money than British, there’d be no British working, would there? So I put my little wedge in, and .. anyway, I got sacked in a nice manner, not for bad work. They told me they were stopping this set of looms and funny enough, not long after they did stop ‘em. But they were old looms. (100)

What were they?

R – All Northrops.

When you say Unifil, what do you mean?

R – Well, each loom winds its own weft, makes its own cops, and they can be a bit troublesome to t’weaver, a bit of an adjustment you know. They, there is a Unifil mechanic, but there's little things that you can do. I forget how much they got paid, happen about a pound a week. But these Pakis weren't getting this pound, and they were delighted! “My friend, you come to tea. You like tea?" “Oh yes” - I said - I like tea" But I never went. But they were all right, they were decent fellows. And after that .. I'm sacked aren't I. I thought "Well, try Barlick again" see, my old stamping ground. (5 Min)

What year would this be about?

R- Eh, I don’t know Stan.

We've been a bit lax on dates.

R- Aye, we have, haven't we? I don't know what year.

Just let's reckon it up a bit, you come out of t'army, how long did you do at Widdups?

R - Eleven years.

Eleven years, so that's forty-five, that's fifty-seven, and then ..well, there’s all these, these jobs after Widdups are all, like, in the next couple of years aren't they?

R- Aye, two or three years aren't there? There must be.

Aye so we are round about nineteen sixty aren't we? We must be somewhere near nineteen sixty.

R- Aye, will be, call it nineteen sixty then.

Yes. How long have you been here at Bancroft, last time, now.

R- This last period, Ten years.

Yes. Ten years. So that's seventy-eight, and so about sixty, and then sixty-eight you came to work here. So we've about. another eight years to fill in, that's it – Aye. (150) Anyway, go quietly forward, we've got it on tape now, go quietly forward we'll ...

R- So I came on to Barlick, and there is a firm in Barnoldswick making filter sheets, Carlson Fords, and

Butts .. [Still in business there in 2013]

R- Aye Butts, I tried one, no I didn't try, it were t’first shop, like I thought "I'll try there. There might be a job going.” So I knocked on the office door and the personnel man came to the door. I took me cap off and give me bald head a little tap, just to indicate that I were no chicken. "Yes" he said. I said "I'm looking for work." “Come in" he says. So in I went, and after a conversation and one or two .. well, a little chat he says "When do you want to start?" I says "I'll start tomorrow." So I started the day after, and it weren't my kettle of fish; outside textiles I'm lost.

What were you doing there?

R- Well, first of all I were taking sheets .. they'd like a big, it's like a paper machine. Stuffs wet at one end, goes through this heat and comes out in sheets and this machine I were on cut them into sections, different sizes, and my job were picking them up and stacking them in the proper places. I were just doing that about two hours and a bloke come, “Will you come down to the manager's office?" I thought what the hell have I done wrong now? "Aye” I said, “right" So I went down there, and I had been promoted.

Just hang on a minutes this can go on the tape, there's some bugger throwing stones in t'mill yard. [short pause while Stanley goes on security detail] Ah, sorry about that, young lads with air rifles. They want 'em all shoved up their arses. Anyway, we are off, t’manager wanted you. Aye.

R- Oh aye. I went down there and he must have thought I were a likely lad, I had been promoted to ... they were on shifts and this were my first shift, afternoon shift. He offered me a job on days, storekeeper. So I said “Aye, OK” I mean, I’d rather work days. So I started there and then on this storekeeping like. He didn't mention that I'd to pull about a thousand pound on a little truck. Anyway that job, that didn't last so long, a few months.

You say, just let's break in a little bit there, you say that out of textiles you're no good.

R- I’m not happy, I'm not. I don't say I'm no good at any other jobs but I'm just not happy.

Why do you think that is Ernie? (10 Min)

R- I don't know, I haven't a clue, I've never been able to, in fact, when I were in t’bloody army I used to dream about weaving. Funny that.

Is that right?

R – Aye, and it's never been a plum job, by any manner or means.

Now, I find that very interesting. Don't you think .. you know, as you know, I very often taken people in and shown ’em t'shed and what not. The way I always describe weaving is that it is the second oldest profession.

R- Well, it must be.

When you think about it. But there's, it always seems to me, and I mean, of course, I'm not a weaver, I've never woven, but it always seems to me that as jobs go, weaving must be a very satisfying job, because you are actually making something, aren't you? You knows you can see it rolling off.

R - Oh aye. You can see the product rolling off. Aye. Still, there's lots of other jobs like that.

Yes. Well there is, but it's a funny thing you know, this occupational therapy in hospitals, they give ‘em these little looms, you know, don't they, and have them weaving? (250)

R- Oh aye. But you know, you can weave in a trance somehow, and noises making music. [Arthur Entwistle says exactly the same thing in his contribution] I’m not joking, it's funny but like I'm saying, outside textiles I seem to be out of me depth, lost. Anyway, I left there, and I came up here to t'Bancroft tape labouring.

Who were the tapers?

R - Joe was one of them, [Joe Nutter] what do they call that other chap that finished?

Norman.

R- Norman?

Norman Grey?

R- Aye, Norman Grey. I had that taperoom like a little palace, it's like a bloody tip now.

Yes I can believe that.

R- Grindrod [The mill manager at Bancroft before Jim Pollard.] come up one Friday night and he patted me on t’back, and that were a real compliment. Anyway, there were a job come to let, tackling at Watson’s at Earby.

Which mill?

R - Beckside mill at Earby. What do they call it?

Brook Shed? Aye.

R- Aye, Brook Shed.

Aye, what's Johnson’s now. Aye, closed down has Watson’s.

R- Yes, Johnson now, they’ve closed down have Watsons. And I enjoyed it there. But my wife got a bee in her bonnet. I have a step daughter and they're in the pub trade, they got in a pub In Kent at a place called Riverhead, near Seven Oaks, the Garden of Eden or the Garden of England. "Let's have a go" she says.

At what?

R- Working in t’pub, me as bar cellar man and her as snack-bar attendant. It were a big place. Amherst Hotel, there were a car park as big as this area. We went down there, me and t’wife and the dog. And that lasted four months and I enjoyed working in t'bar, I used to have (300) some fun with the locals. I used to have a bar full of bloody millionaires, they thought I were a bit of a nutcase I suppose. One bloke said to me one time "Are you proud of being a Yorkshire man?" I says “Are you proud of being a bloody Kentish man?" He says “Of course!” I says “Well, of course then.", see? And, funny thing about them, they were all, they were knocking on a bit a lot of the fellows, oldish fellows you know, they all had bloody hair on. So I made some enquiries, they were all wearing bloody toupees and wigs, civil servants they were. Aye, talk about bloody mutton dressed as lamb. Anyway, I found out you can’t work for relations, so that job collapsed, and back we came to Barlick.

When you moved, just let me jump in again. When you went from, when you were working at Watson’s obviously you'd be living in Barlick, yes? Whereabouts?

R- Oh aye. No, I were, I were living at Nelson.

You were still living at Nelson? And was that house rented at Nelson?

R- Yes, a council house.

Aye. How much were the rent then, can you remember?

R- Aye. Oh, it’d be about .. this is fourteen year since. About thirteen or fourteen years since. It’d be .. oh not much, two pound, fifty bob happen. [£2 or £2.50] It were a nice house, nice garden.

Aye, Yes. So when you went down Kent of course, you'd give that house up. What did you do with your furniture?

R- Oh aye, sold up. Oh we just had a dresser and a Royal Doulton piss pot, and a plant pot, and a brass clock.

Did you use the piss pot?

R- No, it were an ornament.

Ornament, yes. No, I'm just interested, you see some people do use ‘em.

R – Aye. Flowers on it has. Lovely. And .. I enjoyed it, it were t’wife that didn't like, really. Well, I didn't like it so much but… Anyway, we came back to Barlick and we lived in a little house in Gillian's area. Two pound a week, furnished cottage it was. You could sit, I could sit in this chair, this chair supplied by the landlady, put the kettle on and poke the fire, without going out of the chair. Aye, it's true that Stan. So ... and all we had it were three hundred quid, and no furniture, only this dresser, and some (15 Min)(350) brasses that I fetched from India and that, you know? And this pot. And I came working here at Bancroft again, they've always welcomed me working, cut-looker. When I'd been here a few weeks they wanted a tackler at Bouncer [Barnsey Shed] at Pickles. So, off I went again, tackling at Pickles's. And it were all right, I were happy enough .. three years, closed down. I thought “Bugger me, just getting settled" and it takes about three years to settle in a shop. So I'm out of work again. Oh, I'm telling a lie, I weren't out of work. Management said you could go and learn to knit on t’same wage, and it were nineteen pounds sixteen and sixpence a week [£19.83], tackler’s wages then. So I thought well ...

That were when? Nineteen sixty ... four.

R- I think they'd been closed about ...

Sixty-four'?

R- I think they’ve been closed about ten years, it must have been sixty-eight, sixty sixty-seven or eight.

Just one or two things about Pickles’s, you say you went down to Pickles’s at Bouncer…. [Barnsey Shed]

R- Aye.

Who were weaving in t’Bouncer then, just Pickles?

R- Just Pickles.

And how many looms did they have in?

R- Eight hundred about, eight or nine hundred..

Aye. How many looms to a set, seventy?

R- Hundred.

Hundred?

R- Aye, I had hundred loom running there a long while. Well, in fact, all t’time I were there I had hundred looms running.

Why a hundred looms to the set, big set that weren't it?

R- It's never been laid down how many looms to a set, it’s how many looms a chap’ll run.

Yes, and how many .. what were they on there, were they on ten loom or eight, or what?

R- I think. they were eights, aye.

Aye. Lanckies?

R- They were all plain Lancashire looms.

Aye. Whose looms?

R- Coopers. (400)

And they were still running on t’engine of course?

R- No.

What were they on then?

R- Motors.

Aye. When did t’engine stop theer?

R- Don't know.

It doesn't matter, Newton’ll know about that. And they were just weaving plain cotton like we are, grey cotton? And so they are finishing, when? About sixty-six, sometime like that, would it be?

R- Aye, it would be.

Because you've come here in sixty-eight, so ...

R- Yes. Well I went, I went knitting ...

And of course that knitting, it’d be at Long Ing wouldn’t it?

R- Yes, that’s right, but still S. Pickles & Sons. And oh, what a boring job, terrible, didn't like it a bit.

When you say knitting, what were you on, these. circular machines?

R- No, they weren't circular machines, they were flat bed, German. They made some lovely, lovely material. When I saw it at first I thought “Bang goes weaving!” because it knits it so fast and it looks good but it must be no good. There is a lot of firms started up and gone out.

Aye, there is, isn't there. Aye. That Nelson Jersey Knitwear, that were the same thing.

R- Aye. I fancy it's all right for certain, you know, certain methods of manufacturing different things, but it must not fit in right, not like woven.

Aye. It seems to be very good for things like fashion clothes and high quality stuff, doesn't it, but when you get down to the ordinary run of the mill textiles it's very stretchy isn't it, when it's knit.

R- Aye it is. Aye, oh they, knit different kinds, you know, they knit net curtains, but other heavy materials, even shirts, they made out of it. And it were a hundred inches wide some of it. (20 Min)

Why do you say it were boring doing it?

R- Oh, terribly, terribly, I can't explain. Just watching, no shuttling, no starting machinery, nothing. (450)

Aye. Nowt to do but……

R- Just nothing. If an end broke you took it up and pressed a button and away it went again. They could have trained a bloody monkey, to do it I think.

Aye. How about tackling there, did they have mechanics for knitting machine …

R- They had, yes, they had mechanics. But there again you see, two or three other tacklers got this mechanicking job, but not Ernest no, see? I don’t go to church, got no relations in high places, so I’m out on me bloody ear, knitting. Anyway, I told him before I left, manager at Pickles. I knew him when he had his breeches arse out, and I think that were the trouble.

Who were it?

R- I knew too much about him. Well, it were Tooby.

Yes, I keep hearing about this Tooby, how do you spell his name?

R- T O O B Y.

Aye, What was his first name?

R- Jack.

Aye, I keep hearing about this fellow.

R- He is retired now. Oh, he worked for Pickles's all his life. He started as an office boy and general mugger you know, and gradually worked his way up. He were the manager.

So you told him, what did you tell him?

R- I’ll not tell you what I told him.

Oh. right.

R- I used one or two rude words four letter words. Anyway that were it, knitting kaput, so out I come. Where the hell did I go then? Weaving at Johnson’s at Earby, on t’night shift, permanent nights.

Gauze?

R- Pardon?

Gauze?

R- No they weren't on gauze in the automatic shop. And ... three weeks. Bloody terrible it were, miserable lot of tacklers, never a smile .. me and our Wilson were there. I said to him "Has ta ever seen owt like this in thee bloody life?" He said “No, I haven't" This was after three weeks. I says "Let's straighten up and get out.” Right he says. We straightened all these looms up, and I’m just taking the last end up, last of a big bunch, and one of the tacklers came, Whitehouse they called him. One of my old tackler pals from Widdup's. He says "Are you coming or going?" I says “We are bloody well going" and off we went. And ... “Let's go up to Bancroft for some weaving" Wilson says. I says “Aye”. So ... welcome home. Pollard, he always finds us bloody work. (500) So he says to Wilson, “Now lad, you can start weaving.” And then he says to me, “I want thee for tackling.” I said – “I didn't know you had a job going." He says “Well, aye, there is a job going.” and it were a pile of bloody old iron, up again t’far wall, thirty two looms. Some of them ... oh naked they were, talk about unfurnished premises. "Gait them up" he says. I says "Gait them up?” He says "Aye". And I looked at this bloody job and scratched me bald head. I thought well .. I says “Will I be on the same wage as t’other buggers?" He says “Oh aye". I says "Right then" He says “There is no hurry now.” I gaited them up, thirty-two looms, it took me about two months. And I’ll give them their due, they never come to enquire. I don't say they didn't go and inspect while I weren't there, but they never said owt to me, not a word. I just carried on quietly along, and I finally got these thirty-two looms going and then, .. he left me with them a week, and then they had a recount and I had a set of me own then, and I've been here ever since. I've been, I'll be here while they, while they .. you know

Take you out and shoot you. Aye. How about, we’d missed one somewhere I think. How about Stew Mill? [County Brook Mill] You worked there didn't you?

R- Oh aye, I've slipped up haven't I.

Where, did that come?

R- Eh, I don't know where that come, twelve month or eighteen months I worked there. In between. But I'm never, I don't, I can't work anywhere where there's authority. I don't mean I won't obey orders, but there is a way of giving a fellow orders and there’s a bloody nutcase at Stew Mill; Mitchell, what does he, what's his name?

Raymond.

R- Raymond.

That’s it, aye.

R- Well, I had a few arguments with him about different things and I finally chucked up, I finished.

Very funny people actually.

R- Oh, that must have been in between .. I left there and went to T B Fords, that’s how it happened. I couldn't sign on you see, I had to find a bloody job of some sort.

That’s it, yes.

R - And he, I’ll tell you what he did. I were putting chains on a beam end, and there were a nut, it must have been there for fifty years be the looks of it, it were as rusty as buggery. (550) And this foot come and tapped it ... as I'm down on me knees he is, this foot’s tapping this nut. So I had t’key in me hand and I just went down with it, and cracked it right on the bloody toe end, and it were Raymond. So there were a hell of a bust up about that job, "In the office." "Right - 1 said - come on." And his father were a really nice fellow, Ernest Mitchell. He were a right nice chap. He used to, I used to talk to him for hours. He used to get on about the Crowthers of Bankdam like the Mitchells of the Stew Mill, they were comparing ‘em, and there's some comparison.

[Crowthers of Bankdam is a famous book about a fictional textile dynasty. The author was Thomas Armstrong.]
There is a lot, you are quite right.

R- And, "You are not leaving us are you Ernest?” he said, they called him Ernest as well. I says, “Look" and he [Raymond] was stood there, “I can’t stand that bloody fellow a moment longer. I’ll have to get away from him." So I did, I left. And there were some, they were happy go lucky lot working up there. Anyway I left.

Anyway, you finished up here, and you gaited them looms up and got your set, and you've been here ever since.

R- Aye.

And how many loom would they have running then? Nineteen Sixty-eight, how many loom would they have running then at Bancroft?

R- Oh, we're supposed to have seventy-three apiece now, I mean, they've been seventy-three and seventy-five for ten years.

Yes, but I mean how many loom were there running here?

R- Oh, there'd be four and four's eight, and eight's six…. six hundred. Between five and six hundred there'd be running.

So t’shed wouldn't be full, they must have smashed some up at fifty-eight.

R- Oh well, if the price of iron's high they smash some up.

Well aye, that's what we do, isn't it? And ... funny question to ask you now, I know that it's very difficult for you to really make a judgment but … what do you think of the way that Bancroft’s run now, compared with some of the other mills you've been in? Now I mean, you've worked in a fair number of mills, weaving and tackling, which were the best run mills, you know, business wise. Which would you say was the mill that was being run best of the ones you worked in?

R – I’ll tell you which one's run the worst right away. This place. I've never worked in a mill that's run like this.

Now, when you say that Ernie, is it, you know yourself, I mean, obviously I'm not criticising you, I'm just trying to get to the truth. (600) It's very easy to criticise people and all the rest of it, but do you really think that, do you really think that it’s….

R - Oh aye, but the only reason it's run worst, they don't buy any new healds or new anything. Any spare parts or most of t’spare parts we use, we cannibalise. Take them off a stopped loom. And Jim .. I've been here ten years, and I can only ever remember seeing about ten sets of new healds in all that time. Well, it all makes extra work for the tacklers.

And the weavers.

R – Well, tacklers first of all, because we have to, gait them up and get them running. But I reckon Jim Pollard's the best manager in the world working for a firm with the main object of saving money. He runs this bloody firm for next to nothing.

There's no doubt about that, he does.

R- There isn't.

No. (30 min)

R- And it's just changed hands too. Gunga Din's taking over they reckon. I reckon Boardman’s should give Jim ten thousand pounds golden hand shake because he's earned it.

Yes, but we both know what he will get. He’ll be like the rest of us, he’ll…

R –Aye, soldier’s farewell.

Aye, with a bullet in the finish I think.

R - More than likely.
[At the time this tape was being made both Ernie and I knew that we were going to lose our jobs along with everyone else in the firm as we were under notice of redundancy.]

Well .. I'm just thinking now that the people that listen to this tape in perhaps a hundred or two hundred years will think that we sound like a couple of pessimistic buggers now, but I should point out that we, well, I've been here now for what? Six years and I've seen it go down from .. we had nearly five hundred looms running then.

R- Oh aye, aye it's going downhill, but we are cheerful pessimists.

Yes, I mean we are not, put it this way, we're realists,

R – Realists, that's true.

That's it, aye.

R – Aye, if you can face facts that's half the battle.

That's it.

R - I mean, if they put the notice up tomorrow [The redundancy notice. It actually went up on the 22nd of September, three weeks after this tape was made.] I’ll think to meself "Well Ernest, back to the old routine."

That's it. Well, we did try, didn't we.

R - Oh aye.

We did try. And there is one thing about Bancroft, I don’t know whether you'll agree with me - but .. I've always said this place is a bloody holiday camp.

R- I agree most heartily. I've never worked at a place like it in me life where there is least aggro, and nobody telling you to ... "Go here, and, come here and do that job and when you've finished that go and see if Joe wants a lift.” and … well … and “put that brush up your arse and sweep up as you are going along.” There's nowt like that. Eh… (650)

No, I like it here. I know when I first came here somebody were telling me what a rotten bloody shop it was to work at. I says to him, I says well, I'll tell you what, I’ve just come off long distance wagons, I’ve been into more factories, firms, places of business, mills, chemical works, dye works, anywhere you care to mention, than everybody else in this firm put together. I’ve never seen a bloody place like this, they can wander in at what time they want in the morning, they can go and do the bloody shopping half way through t'day and they can wander out at night any time they want. I mean, it isn't a question of the bell going here at half past four and everybody going out, it's a question of the engineer going round at half past four and shutting all the bloody doors because there's nobody here.

R- Aye. I’ve known weavers be off all week and Jim hadn't known. Aye. He said “Has Gladys a condenser in?" This would be at Friday afternoon. "She is not here" and she'd been off all week. He didn't know.

Well, in the old days, in the old days there'd have been somebody in that warehouse waiting to go on t’looms five minutes after they turned out to be missing.

R - Oh yes, aye, aye. You had to run like buggery or you had a weaver on.

Aye. Anyway, you've got a little house on Wapping haven’t you? When did you get that house?

R- Townhead.

Yes, Townhead.

R- It used to be Wapping but not now. We’ve got some semi-detached up here now, you know?

Aye. Townhead, I'm sorry Ernest, yes.

R- Well, when we were living at Gillian's in that…

Bijou residence.

R- Premises, premises. And another thing, t’bloody wind used to blow right through. I'm sure they were haunted. And where were I working? We were up there a few months but I were looking for a house you know. We still had this three hundred quid, as a down payment. Anyway, I’m coming up Wapping, and there is a paper in a window 'This house for sale.” 20 Townhead it was. So, after a few enquiries I found out it belonged to, eh, what the hell do they call him, Norman Bracewell’s son in law, Norman ….

Capstick.

R- Capstick, that’s right.

John Capstick.

R- So I didn't tell t’wife, she…oh funny thing though .. 0h, in a minute that, funny thing. I'm nattering at t’wife about this bloody house and she is nattering at me. It were back to the old days you know, tub in t’toilet. And so oh it were, you don’t want to slip back you want to go forward a bit. Anyway, I'm coming up Wapping, this paper's in the window ‘This house for sale.’ So it belonged to Capstick and I went to (700) see him, "How much? "Five hundred pound.” Well, I hadn't five hundred pound and I couldn't get a mortgage so I said "Will you take fifty pound down, and two pound, a week rental purchase? And after we have paid £500 we reckon the interest up.” Aye, all right" he says. So I comes up Gillian's and I says to the wife "Come on with me at once." So down Gillians she comes and she looked at this house. It's a nice house, and it were on the clearance list when I bought it, gambling again. Now its on t’preservation list. “Aye ---she says, but I want to go to Nelson." I says "You are not going to bloody Nelson. You are stopping in Barnoldswick with Ernest or you can go to Nelson on your bloody own, I've done enough travelling about, I'm settling down here I've been to Kent, India, Africa, all over the bloody world, and I get a bit sick of it." So she finally said "Aye, all right" and we moved in. And I've been right, really happy in that house.



Club Row in 1980. Ernie's cottage was the one painted white.

Yes, I know you have. It's a nice little house, now you’ve got it straightened.

R- Oh it is, aye. Aye, it's smashing. And I paid this five hundred pounds and I think it were eighty pounds in interest. I paid eighty quid off, and got the deeds. A man of means.

‘A man of Property' that's it, John Galsworthy, that's it, man of property. Aye, so I mean, really it's, everything turned out …

R- OK. You've got my bloody life on them tapes!

Ah, not yet, no, I haven't finished with you yet. I haven't just sucked the juice out of you yet. But we’ll get a bit philosophical now, I mean that Jim Bean ought to he working down a bit now. Any regrets? You know, looking back at it?

R- No not one. No, I've no regrets Stan, if I had my life to do over again, it’d be exactly the same. No I can't say, I've honestly, I've knowingly done any bad turns, ever. No I can't say I have any regrets at all.

When you think back to the days when your mother were struggling to keep hearth and home together and all the rest of it, when all three of you were at home. You know a lot of people talk about poverty and the harm it can do people, and this, that and the other. (750) Looking at you now, it doesn’t seem to me that poverty’s left any big scars on you.

R- Oh no, it hasn’t. No, doesn’t it say in the Bible ‘It's no use kicking against the pricks.” I’m a fatalist, what has to be will be. I mean, I've had ups and downs but like I said, if you don't have any bloody downs you don't appreciate the ups. And I'm better off now in every way than I’ve ever been in my life, and I don't know who to thank for that, I've always worked. I don't know whether to thank t'bloody Labour Party or not.

Aye, well, as a good Labour man who has always seen a Tory put in….

R- Aye, I’ve never backed a winner yet. And things today, I mean, well, there’s no comparison.

What do you mean?

R- Between when I were a lad and now. Everybody were poor, nearly everybody. People that were working regular, they were bloody poor. They’d save up twelve months for a week at Blackpool, no wages, there were no such thing as holidays with pay. And if you didn't save up you were on your bloody chin strap. May be if you saved a shilling or two-shilling a week for twelve months you'd …you know, you’d. be all right. But otherwise you were .. no pay day that week. Well, bugger me, it’d he a disaster. (40 Min)

Would you say, looking back, that there was a bigger gap then between the people that had and the people that hadn’t than there is now?

R- Oh I should say ... oh, miles apart, a million bloody pounds apart.

You mean more so then than now?

R- Oh yes. I mean, you can just look about you, ordinary working class people, what you might call uneducated. Nice motorcar, nice house, everything laid on, but they’ve got to work, they’ll not get it on this SS [Social Security]. Though you hear some stories about it being a land flowing with milk and honey for them, but I don't think it is. There might be isolated cases. But supposing I come out of work, couldn't work and went on’t bloody Social Security, they wouldn't give me much. Aye, I mean, for a chap to really take advantage of Social Security he has to have a few kids, hasn’t he?

Yes.

R- And really I don't disagree with it, this child allowance and that, I think it's a good thing. If this country gets a healthy child to grow up to a healthy adult, and he starts paying bloody taxes it’ll not take him long to pay it back will it?

That's right, you are quite right. One of the things that I’ve always said is, like these people that talk about people who have used what I call ‘Lloyd George’, you know, used to be the parish, sick pay, you know, or Social Security. They are very often people who have never had to draw it, because I've always said the same thing, I can remember being off work once, for three months, when I had an accident and I thought that Lloyd George were the finest bloody thing that had ever happened.

R- Oh yes, aye, it is if you are in need.

It was.

R - I mean, how can you go on with nothing?

Well, the funny thing was, I mean what a rotten wage I must have been on, I were drawing more on bloody Lloyd George that I could when I were working. And I'll be quite honest, I got to the stage where I thought “Well, I could get used to this." Aye, oh hell, aye. I could get used to it. Mind you, I'd have been doing sommat else on the side like, but I can understand. I mean, you know yourself, we've got people working here now like loom sweepers and what not, they'd be better off on t’bloody dole that they are working.

R-No, they wouldn't Stan.

Well, no, when I say that I realise that I’m falling into the same trap as the others, but like .. I can give you one instance that I know in true, and that’s John, the firebeater.

R- Aye …

When he came to work here he had five children at home, it was before the [Eldest] lad had gone to work and we sat down one day, and worked it out. And in order to have the same money working here as he had when he was at home on the dole doing nothing, he had to have a gross wage of just short of eighty pound, which obviously you can't do on firebeating job here. He used to lie in bed on a Monday morning and there used to he a postal order for fifty odd quid plopped through the door, and then on top of that there were free milk at school and school dinners and what not.

R - Aye .. that's right.

He said it worked out, he said it would have to be over eighty quid he’d have had to have drawn to have made up for it when you reckon up stoppages. But John being the fellow he was he’d rather be working than laiking [dialect for playing] so he came to work.

R- Well, John's kind are in the majority. There it is, he’d rather work than mope about, for less money.

Yes. I think. ... I know what you're getting at, and I think you are right. I mean it's .. when you come to think about it .. these tales about people that are drawing all this Social Security .. it is as you say, they are isolated cases, but they are news.

R- Yes.

So they get publicised.

R- That's right.
I mean, if Ernie Roberts comes quietly to work every day of his life for forty-two years, that isn't news, but if Ernie Roberts has sixteen kids and he is drawing two hundred quid a week social security that's headline news.

R- That’s news, aye it is. There's bloody millions like me.

Yes, of course there is. But you see, one of the things that interests me about this job and especially in Barlick, is the fact that it was people like you who, as you say, you love weaving and you could hear the music in the noise and all the rest of it ..it were people like you that made the industry what it was.

R- Aye.

And made all the money.

R- Yes, of course it were.

And yet the amazing thing to me is, how can I put it? If British Leyland was to be run down over the next three years there’d be an uproar, there’d riots, there'd be strikes, there’d be God known what. But in this town, since nineteen-fifty-eight over the last twenty years, an industry's died and gone, and there's never been a murmur.

R – No.

An odd little bit in the paper……

R – Aye. Another mill closed down…

There's never been a murmur. ‘Another mill closed down’ I mean, we are still getting them now, Oak Bank, that place at Trawden, another mill closed down.

R - They are closing down one by one. Because we just can't compete with this foreign. And they, I know, I know that they work for bugger all. I think … well, they must be on a par, like same as we were in nineteen thirties, say t’weavers in India, they’ll just be on a starvation wage. Oh they must be, because they can buy t’bloody cloth cheaper in India and ship it over here.

Yes, and there again they have another advantages, they control the raw material as well, don't they?

R- Yes.

Well, this week we've come to the end of, well not the end, but we've come to the present day in your working life and what we're going to do next week, we'll .. we'll have a look at the pictures again, but this time of Ernie Roberts tackler, tackling, and we'll see what we can make of that.

SCG/27 September 2002
6985 words.



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/12

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON SEPTEMBER 22nd 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


And tonight we are going to look at the first set of, the first section of the set of tackler's pictures in the Bancroft Folio, and see what we can get out them. Right Ernie, first picture, you should have been ready at the first picture, shouldn't you? Yes. Now, the first picture is number 34,



R– yes …

Now then, where are you, where are you there, Ernie?.

R- Well, I'm in the Bancroft storeroom, a bit of a tip, a quiet moment, rolling a fag.

Yes, but now … you say ‘the Bancroft storeroom’. Now to most people, a storeroom is just a place where spares and things like that are stored, you know, but Bancroft storeroom, it's just a bit more than that really, isn't it?

R- 'Well, it’s a place where we reshape the world, we keep spare parts in there, and if a weaver wants a tackler, and he isn’t available in the mill, they come to t’storeroom.

That's it. So if you …

R- You usually will find him there,

Yes. So if you are not doing anything else, you'll be, you'll be sat in t’storeroom here.

R - Rolling a fag.

Or having a cup of tea, or discussing politics.

R – Aye. Oh, every subject.

Aye .. or Methodists.

R- Everything, aye.

Yes. Anybody looking at that’d think it looked a bit of a tip.

(50)

R- Well, lots of people come in there and say it is a tip, but it isn't really. I mean, we know where to look, if we want a spare part.

That's it. At one time all those shelves behind, they are numbered, at one time .. everything did hold just one thing didn’t it, every shelf did hold just one spare part.

R- That's right. It still applies .. to a point. Oh aye. Aye.

Oh, does it? Oh I'm sorry Ernie, I was under the impression it was…

R- We have an index up here.

That's it, yes, yes.

It – Aye, it still applies. But you may have to root a bit, like, but …

Aye. Aye, very good. Right, go on, turn over, next one. Now then, that’s ..you tell me, what's that a picture of?



R - Number 35. Well that's a picture of our bench, with the vices on, and various tools, and bits and pieces knocking about, and one or two notices, calendars, cheesecake picture .. and if you can read that little notice at the top it says three and six a pound.

That's its aye. Aye, good lad.

R- And there's a box on there as well, that belongs to another tackler. We call them handbags, we carry tools around in it, you know?

Yes, that's it. Aye, but you don't use one do you?

R- No, I can’t use one.

Why not? Tell me why.

R- Because .. every time I go to the job I lose it, no handbag, Where the hell have I left it? I say "Bugger me", and I'm searching all over for it. I have to pack the job in. I carry my tools in my pockets.

(100)

Aye, that’s it. Now, I noticed that. That's one of the reasons why your tools are so nicely polished.

R- Aye. They are polished.

Aye. Did you find your scissors the other day?

R- Aye, they turned up, they usually turn up.

Aye, aye.

R - Nowt else. And then there is intercommunications up there, you can see.

Oh aye, ship to shore. With the alarm clock with its face to the wall, that always amuses me.

R- Aye, well, it doesn't work. Then we have a grease gun there, and one or two old shuttles, and a couple of shuttles up on the right hand side there, waiting to be collected. They have been repaired.

Yes, I’ve no.. they generally chalk the number on the shuttle when they
fetch it in, well, crayon it on.

R- Well, pencil or owt, owt that writes will do.

Aye, that's it. What's the usual thing that's wrong with the shuttle Ernie, when they fetch 'em in?

R – Well, inside the shuttle there's a peg you know, a pirn goes on, and there is a little wood peg fastens them in, and these wood pegs get badly worn, and t’peg either goes one side or the other. They must be somewhere near the

(5 min)

eye of the shuttle, when the weft's coming off, 'cause it comes off at a speed you know? If it's sideways or up or down, it just won't weave, it breaks. And then .. you put a new wood peg in, straighten the peg up, straighten the metal peg up, or put some fur in, or give it a good sandpapering.

Why is there fur in the shuttles Ernie?

R- It's like, it controls the weft, stops it ballooning and billowing out, if you’ve got weft that’s very lively.

Puts a brake on it, like …

R- That's it, that's it.

Yes, and what sort of fur is it?

R- Rabbit fur.

Always?

R- Not always, sometime we cadge a bit off the weavers. In fact at the moment we are using Persian lamb. (150)

Who provided that?

R- Hilda Green .

Hilda Green. Well done Hilda!

R- I think it must have been a family heirloom.

I think, I saw it, aye, it could be …

R- Ahah, we had it, it's lovely fur, lovely aye.

It's a good piece of fur, aye.

R- And .. in reserve we have a fur hat. I forget who fetched that. One time when we had no fur see, they couldn’t afford to buy any fur .. so, there is all sorts of things going on for years and years and years .. outsiders don't know.

I mean, that's it, that's it.

R- I mean, they've been talking about fractions of a penny a yard, difference between profit and loss. But that's been going on, well, ever since there were weaving I reckon. About eighteen what? What was it? Eighteen forty or eighteen twenty?

No. Aye when t’first world .. well, eighteen fifty in Barlick, aye, eighteen forty-five in Barlick.

R- Aye, aye. And they've been crying poverty ever since, bosses.

Aye, aye. Oh we’ll have to try it this winter, and see what happens.

R- Aye, oh but it’s been, it’s been a great game. I’ve loved every minute. Is there owt else here interesting?

I'm just having a look Ernie, I think we've just about sucked the juice out of that one.

R - It's amazing really, when you look at it, just about, near t’top, at the right, there is a dart board. Oh…

No, dart board's behind you there, from where that picture's been taken.

R- No it isn’t.

Aye, there’s a dart board hung up there, but it's that old un.

R - Aye it is an old un.

Yes. The dart board that Roy uses is down…

R- Aye it's, that's right.

That's its aye. We should explain that we have one tackler who is a dab hand at darts, and the way he keeps in practice, he has a set of two darts, not three, but he practices on.

R- Two. And instead of rolling .. he doesn't smoke you see, his spare time’s spent darting and my time's spent rolling fags. Oh I think that'll do for … that's exhausted that bit.

Very good. (200)

R- Eh, what a bloody tip isn't it! It's disgraceful you know, things have run down, it must have run down so, shocking it is.

When you look now, when you that at one time, under the old regime, you know, the old conditions, that place’d be spotlessly tidy wouldn’t it?

R- Oh yes, sparkling it’d be. Bench’d be clean and .. if you did any work you had to sweep it off and, the floor were clean, everything were clean, but I think it must have been over about thirty years that, run down.

Aye. Gradual deterioration.

R - That's it, because this firm's been shutting down for thirty years.

I've heard Fred Greenwood say that, but they put .. no not Fred Greenwood, what's that lad that has pigeons that walks up the road every night with a nice head of curly hair?

R - Oh aye, Harwood. Aye.

Aye. Now he used to work in t’twisting room didn't he.

R- Yes he did.

And he left when they put notice up in nineteen…, just after the war. Just after the war they put t’notice up and he thought held better get out and he went to Blin and Blins. And he said he's had about four jobs since, and Bancroft's been goings all t’time. Ah well ..

R- It’d be about nineteen fifty four or five, that would, I bet.

Aye, ‘cause…

R- Because they reckon that when this government scheme came out you know, shrinking the industry, but it's not shrinking, what they call that word?

Aye, contraction. That's it contraction.

R - Oh that's its aye. Contracting the industry,

I remember that, they've contracted you now.

R - I wonder if he is still living, that bastard ?

Who?

R - That invented that, this carry-on for textiles, contraction.

I don’t know.

R - And they squeezed us all out.

What would you do with him, Ernie?

R- I'd squeeze him.

Right.



R - Number 36.

That’s it.

R- Now, I'm upstairs in t’preparation department.

Yes, there's just one thing I should point out to you. Now, this picture, actually, follows on the pictures that I did of Jim looming, and the last (250) picture I did in the section on Jim looming was that warp lay on the floor there, waiting for the tackler to come up.

R- That's right.

So now you .. just tell me, without talking about that picture really, just tell me about the down board and system of deciding which warp belongs to which tackler.

R - Aye. Well, each loom has a number and when t’warp is finished, the weaver comes out and puts that number on the board. Well, tacklers know their own numbers, we have us own sections, and .. she'll come to t’tackler and say “warp out” see? So, .. she'll usually say the width as well. So then you go upstairs for the little truck, and if there is a warp there you get it and, …well, put it back in the loom.

Yes. But if, I mean, as we've often been in the last few years, there isn't a warp for that loom straight away, then it's a question of which is booked down first on the board in the warehouse isn't it?

R- Oh aye, That's right.

The first one that was brought down, .. if there is .. say there's three weavers waiting for forty inch warp. The first weaver to have, the first weaver who put her number on the board, because they are all put on in order, she gets that warp, doesn't she?

R - That's, that's right.

Yes, that's it. And if she stood with her loom with no warp in, what happens then?

R- She gets stopped time, she gets paid for that loom being stopped.

How much is stopped time, do you know?

R- Three and a half pence per hour. In fact in some cases they got more money for a stopped loom than a loom that's been running all week. I think it works out at about one pound forty for a stopped loom for a week. And some of the sorts we've had in, just a mediocre weaver would have a job to make that.

Yes. Well, that’s right.

R - A good weaver could make it. (300)

Forty times three and a half pence is one pound forty. And so, even in this day and age, on the peak rate …there’s plenty of sorts in this mill at the moment that, it’d be a job to make one pound forty on a loom in a week.

R- Oh aye, aye.

Mind you. There is the time rate on top isn’t there. You know, there is what they call a time bonus on top isn't there.

R- Well, a good weaver, with ten looms running all week, and bonus, or it's like an attendance bonus. I don't know how much it is, twenty odd pounds. They’ll make about forty three pounds for forty hours.

That’s gross.

R – Hard, hard graft.

Yes, gross.

R- Aye.

Which means by the time these, because a lot of them are taxed as single women, with being married …

R- Well, all women, all women are taxed, I think, as single.

Yes, well, they’re ..that means that they'd be going out of the shed with happen thirty-seven, thirty-six quid.

R - Oh I don't, aye, somewhere about…

Yes. So in other words it's possible, in nineteen seventy eight, for a weaver to work bloody hard all week in that shed, forty hours, be here punctual in the morning and leave last thing at night, and still come out with less, a lot less, than a pound an hour.

R- Oh aye. Oh that, oh yes, definitely. That's general. A lot less than a pound an hour.

Yes. Yes, and if it's a mediocre weaver of course they ...

R- Oh well, peanuts.

Getting less. Aye. And you know what they say about peanuts don't you? If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

R - True.

And that’s right. Anyway, the warp's been booked on the down board, Evidently you've got a weaver that wanted, that’s a forty inch isn’t? It’s one of them polyzones.

R - Yes it is.

You've got a weaver that wants a forty inch warp. So you go up and …

R – Yes, and I'm readying it.

Now, what are you actually doing there? I've seen you do this hundreds of times.

R – Well, on t’healds, through the heald staves, there is some hooks, and through them hooks you put band [String], and they have a running knot so that you can adjust them. And there's four staves, and this particular sort that band goes through two staves at each side, that's t’back staves and then two bands through the front staves. (350)

Ah so, what did you call that? When you were telling me about weaving before, you said, you were telling me about .. that the back one always had to be slightly down to the front one ...

R - Slated.

Slated, that was it

R - Oh aye, aye.

So, so that heald, so those healds are slated when they're in [the loom] are they? On them?

R- Only when it's tied up in t’loom, it is slated. (15 min)

Yes, that's what I mean, when you, that's it, yea.

R- Oh yes, aye, aye. They ...

So in other words, that could be woven, really, as a two stave, but weaving it as a four stave, slated, is actually a way of getting better cloth, is that right?

R- Aye, it's better cloth, it's always better cloth on four staves. But you couldn’t put that on two staves, you can only put one in a dent on two staves. You can't put two in a dent.

Ahh. And is that two?

R- This in two in a dent.

Aye, oh I didn’t know that. I didn't know that, yes. I know what you mean. In other words, on the reed, instead of there just being one thread through each dent or gap in the reed ...

R- That's right

There’s two through each one. And in some cases, [When he is looming the warp] Jim misses a dent, doesn’t he, with them. You know, he'll, he'll miss a dent in between on some of them. I've seen him do it.

R - Yes he does, and then he has to shove a dent out and squeeze it together.

Aye, yes.

R - But you get better, you get better cloth. You can't have two in a dent for two staves, you can only have one, but with four staves you can have one in a dent.

Yes, you can either have one in a dent or two in a dent.

R- or two, or four, or three, I've no .. Aye, we used to have some called .. I forget what they were called but they were three in a dent.

Aye, special sorts of cloth, yes.

R – Aye, Poppettes they called them.

Poppettes? Aye? I never heard of that.

R - Aye. Long before they had poppettes in America, dancing about with their arse bare.

Oh yes Ernie.. Oh aye, but there again I've never beard about that either you see!

R - Oh aye, have you seen .. I've seen them on the telly. (400)

No, no none. Now then, you are upstairs in the .. you are upstairs in the warp preparation department as we rather grandly call it. Now then, that's a wood floor, well worn...

R – Yes, can you see them repairs?

Yes.

R- Factory inspector came and said "Fill them holes up because some poor bugger’s going to break their leg or sommat” and that's what they did.

And that's why there is that pathway in the floor, they are new boards. Well, what used to be new boards. But Jim cutting his healds on them hasn't done them much good has it? Cutting his healds down.

R- Aye that's right. No, his reeds.

His reeds rather, yes. And ... now wait a minute, what else can we pluck out of that picture? There is the pulley at the end there, you can see it's going round because it's blurred. That's carrying the cross drive from the engine shaft across on to the tape shaft, that's the end of the shaft which drives the tapes in the next room. And leaning up against the wall there is some sets of healds and reeds.

R- Aye it is. There is another. That's it, aye.

Yes. Now, those there that are leaning against the wall Ernie, are healds and reeds just as they've been cut out of the loom aren't they. And the end's are knotted up so that they can't slide back through the reed. Now, why are those brought up like that?

R- Well, the chap on the knotting machine gaits these healds and reeds up, they call it ‘gaiting up’, setting it up, you see in t’machine. And he ties knots on to a new beam so the healds and reeds can go back in the loom. [This can only be done if the warp and sort are the same. Our problem at Bancroft was small orders and the sorts were constantly changing. This made it difficult as the new sorts all had to be loomed by hand by Jim Pollard.]

That's it.

R- It isn't just one warp, one set of healds and reeds, I mean it's well, it could be, it depends on the weight of the yarn, you can have oh .. God knows how many.

Well the combinations are just about limitless aren't they?

R- Aye. Years ago, every time a set of healds went in t’mill there were a coloured mark put on, and when that set of healds had done a certain number of warps they'd scrap it.

Automatic? While what we do is collect healds off other people and use them for the next twenty year.

R – Aye, aye, second hand. Well, we use them in t’mill until they drop to pieces. Many a time we've to fetch a warp out [Before it is woven off.] because healds are done you see.

Which there again isn't helping loom efficiency.

R - Oh no, it’s inefficiency. But it's run down, it's a right bloody Cinderella shop this. Trouble is it’s twelve o'clock all t’time. (450)

It's what?

R - Twelve o’clock all t’time.

Oh! That's it? You nearly lost me there, Ernie. Yes.

R- And then there is a truck parked there, you see? Some tackler’s come up for a warp and there isn't one ready so he left his truck there in readiness.

In readiness, on the starting grid. Aye, under starters orders. Now then, 37.



R – Well, I'm making a bit of progress, warp's on t’truck and I'm wheeling it into the hoist to go downstairs to the weaving department.

Now, there is something there, have you ever worked in a mill where they haven't had to go upstairs and downstairs for warps?

R – Yes, I have. (20 min)

And would you say that was an improvement?

R- Oh, a big improvement, everything on one floor, aye.

I often wondered why people always seem to have stuck to the idea that you have your warp preparation department and tapes upstairs, and you lift everything up there when it comes in and then everything goes down again. I mean, you know yourself, we get weft into the warehouse, Frank wheels it into the hoist, wheels it upstairs and then it all has to be wheeled downstairs again ...

R- That's right.

It always seems to me that it’d be more efficient if the winding machines
were in the shed.

R- Yes, it would.

And the tapes and the warp preparation were on the ground floor or the warehouse.

R- Oh aye. Well, I reckon modern factories are like that you know?

Aye ... but, obviously we are not.

R- Oh no. Far from being modern. Though I'd worked in a modern factory too and they are not very happy places. Bell's ringing and ‘do this’ and 'do that' and ‘go there' and ‘come here' and it gets a bit monotonous. I've enjoyed working here I must say, with all its faults. ‘With all thy faults I love thee still.’

Oh!! Thank you very much Ernie! Right, 38.



R – Right, that 38, well, we are making progress. We’ve got down into t’mill. “There’s trouble at t'mill.” and I'm wheeling the warp down towards my weaver. (500)

Yes well, now then, there's one or two questions about that Ernie, just to give you a chance to get some more mucky water off your chest, what's your opinion of the floor in the weaving shed?

R- Oh it's atrocious, bloody terrible it is. It's a wonder we don't all have double ruptures. I mean, many a time you get your little wheels in a nick, warp on t’floor, you have to lift it up, push your truck under, and you think to yourself, “Eh, I wish they'd get a fresh floor."

That's it. Well, you know, as I understand it, I once heard it said that when they built this shed there was a law suit over the flags

R- There were ...

Because they said they were the wrong flags when they built it. In fact you tell me, you know, we've never actually found it, but we know it's there, I think it's covered with tarmac now, but we've actually got

R- a gravestone in there.

Aye, that’s it, at the back of the …

R- Right down at t’bottom end, somewhere round there, right at t’bottom.

Yes, do you know, I'd love to find that, I've tried to ...

R – We’ll find it, we'll find it next week. Aye.

We'll find it, aye. Elva, remember Elva Martin that used to weave here, she always said that she learned to weave up at the back there, you know, in the old days, when it were bang up to the walls. She swore blind that it were haunted, they used to say it were haunted you know up there.

R - Oh aye, aye. I bet it is.

Of course. I'd forgotten you said it's haunted. Charlie Brown.

R - Charlie Brown. I’ve telled him many a time to get back ...

Aye, get back where?

R- That’s tempting providence. I don’t know, up or down. [Heaven or hell] Oh, he were all right were Charlie, I think he might have gone up.

And Charlie Brown was?

R- A tackler. Yes he died. They are all misshapes tacklers.

Is that right?

R- Oh, look at ‘em, look at me! Humps and bloody hollows, bent legs, bald head. Now then, number 39.

Ah, we are making progress now.



R- Oh, I'm just backing in ready to shove t’warp into the loom.

Yes. Now we should point out here I think, to the assembled multitudes, that actually I was very fortunate with this warp. Of course I had me head [Screwed on] (25 min) and waited while this warp was going in there. Like, normally there isn't all this space on t'beam side of a set of looms.

R- Oh no ..

But the only reason that there is, in this case, is that this set of looms is one of the back sets of looms in the shed which borders on to the big space in the shed which isn’t used any more now because our shed's only got what, it's got about five hundred loom in when there is room for a thousand. And of those, there's about two hundred odd running, that's all. (550)

R- Aye, yes.

So it means that we had plenty of room to do these pictures. So you've just landed with your polyzone warp, on the beam side of the loom.

R- Yes. And I'm going to shove it into t’back, like a big bobbin, it fits in t’back.

Yes, one thing I think to notice on that is .. if you look above the looms in this shed, in a modern shed you'll see a fairly clear space, because all the looms are driven from the floor by electric motors. But in our shed of course, you've got a forest of belts. Now .. tell me if there's any advantages to belt driven looms and any disadvantages.

R- Well, let me think. I think I prefer a belt driven loom, from a shafting up above. I've worked on both. I mean, I could be prejudiced, I mean .. running from an electric motor .. I don't know Stan. From a safety point of view electric motors are a lot better. I mean, every time we mount one of these belts we are at risk.

Well you are.

R- Tacklers have been known to go round there, and you only go round once!

Yes. When you say ‘Mount a belt', that's putting it on to the pulley while the shafting's running.

R- That’s right, aye.

And one slip up, hook's in your clothes and away.

R- That's it.

Especially in the old days when they used them old belt fasteners with hooks on. That would be a terrible thing, wouldn't it eh?

R- Well there were nowt else in the old days was there? They were all…

Them with the hooks, big clips and hooks. Aye. I have heard it said Ernie, that the atmosphere, the actual air in a shaft driven shed, is far lighter than it is in a motor driven shed.

R- It is.

I've heard that cited as one advantage of having shaft drive, it, your belts are keeping the air moving all the time and you haven't got that sort of oppressive atmosphere that you get off electricity …

R- No, because every motor gets heated up, and there’s a, .. what’s that smell that comes off them .. you don't get that ...

Yes, there is, isn't ...

R- And you get even weaving with a belt drive, instead of a V belt on an electric motor. I think it's better that way, the old fashioned way. (600)

It is, it’s a fairly soft drive isn't it, because it slips on the pulley, it's not a positive drive.

R- Aye. That’s it. No.

Which a lot of people would say was a disadvantage because it means that you can't actually time your looms accurately, but .. I mean, really, it's whether you can get the cloth off, isn’t it? That's all that matters.

R- Oh aye. Aye.

Because I mean, you know yourself, you can walk down there and you can pass one fifty-six inch loom and it's going cadonk .. cadonk .. cadonk . And you walk past another and it's going cadonk,cadonk,cadonk. It all depends how the belt is.

R- Aye it is, and then it depends on the size of the pulley and all you know?

Aye that's it.

R- But there's none, you'll never, you'll never hear a tackler say 'Speed's an advantage.’ it is a big disadvantage. If you have a loom running on a steady one hundred and eighty picks a minute, you’ll very rarely go to that loom for a fault. Get one running at two hundred and twenty and you're never away. And everything lasts longer, shuttles, leathers, all the furniture.

Now then, one thing there, one word there Ernie, sorry. Furniture, what's furniture on a loom?

R- Aye. Well you, you furnish your loom. If you buy a loom. I've never bought one but if you buy one, you buy it fully furnished, That means an empty beam, and all the leathers and pickers and shuttles.

Is that right, when a new loom was bought it was furnished? (30 min)

R – Aye, fully furnished.

Well now. I didn’t know that.

R- Yes. I wouldn't swear to it, but I’ve heard the old tacklers and, and old textile workers say.

Yes .. aye. So the furnishings on a loom are anything which isn't actually part of the loom like shuttles, pickers, leathers ...

R- That's right.

Beam, cloth roller, these are what you call furnishings.

R- Aye, that's it. If you get a fully furnished loom, all you need's a beam with yarn on and some weft.

That's it, you only need your warp and weft.

R- And away you go.

And a drive and you are away.

R- You can make a shirt for a China man.

Make a shirt for a China man, yes. Who was it said that if they'd only put an inch on China men’s shirt laps, Lancashire’d be saved.

R- I don't know who it were but I've been saying it for years and years.

Aye, that’s it. Anyway, number 40.

R- Well, they make their own now don't they'?

'Well, they make better shirts than we do.

R- Aye, they do.

Number 40.



R- Number 40, well I'm still making progress but…

But, something which often happens to a tackler ..

R- Aye, I’m just commencing operations, gaiting this warp, and one of my weavers came. I remember this, nice girl, what do they call her, Susan Longbottom. She's left.

Why did she leave? (650)

R- Well, no progress, no future, no nothing. She’s gone to a better firm at Earby, Johnson’s, but she doesn't like. She wants to come back. But there you are you see. They have a canteen, and if they cut their finger they can have a plaster, anything really that they want they can have, and she’s not very happy.

And I can state from experience that the toilets at Johnson’s are like palaces.

R- Yes, aye, aye.

They are, they're just like a palace.

R - Aye it's amazing in't it. You see she'd only been here about a year, and it had grown on her, this place. Isn’t it funny?

Well, it's .. I mean, I find it’s very understandable, you know what I think about Bancroft? It's, for all its faults, Bancroft has, it's got that certain something.

R- Aye it has.

I don't know what it is. And it's the dirtiest, muckiest, worst run shop I've ever seen in my bloody life.

R- Aye. I have a weaver with industrial lice, doctor called it. I don't think it is, because I have no bloody lice. She’s been doctored for it.

Aye? ... Industrial lice?

R- Aye. Eh!

That'll be, that'll be a compensation job.

R- Oh no. I don't think so, she is improving.

Improving …

R- I only said to her this morning “How’s your lice?" She said “I went to the doctor's last night” and ..I said “What treatment did he give you?" She said "He shoved a needle in me arse." I says "Is it doing any good?" She says “Me arse is sore."

Where exactly has she got the lice?

R - On her, on her legs.

On her legs?

R- Well, all over her body really I think. They aren't lice. He looked into, through a magnifying glass at the lice and then he give her this final treatment, the needle. They call them industrial lice. I said “Have you catched any" she says “I haven't seen nowt."

Aye. You'd better let me know after who that. doctor is. I want to keep away from him!

R- Doctor Cooper.

Oh, is that who it is. Aye. Oh well, we'll keep away from him. Anyway, Susan had come to you, and she'd got a bit of a problem, although she were having a bit of a giggle that day

R- Oh they all, aye they all giggle. Usually, they are like a father figure are tacklers. They'll come and tell you their troubles you know, and ask your advice. And she is that type, but I think she's just saying weaving bart weft, or picker broken or shuttle catch. Sommat like that. And I'm saying "What the bell you've been doing?"

Aye, it is a very close relationship though really, isn't it, tackler and weaver?

R- It is. Oh it is.

I mean, I can imagine that at times you'll have to be very careful.

R- Oh aye. Well, years ago you, I mean, if you wanted to be careful. You didn’t always want to be careful though.

Aye, that's right Ernie aye. But I mean, it is a very close relationship really.

R - Oh it is, it is, aye.

I mean even though the old days of, you know, the slave driving tackler have gone. I mean, there’s still that close contact. And obviously, I mean, when you're squeezing up between the bloody looms, it's close, it's close, it's body contact and all.

R - Oh aye, aye. It is bum to bum aye. I've heard them say many a time that bloody weaver's coming again, wanting to rub bums. But it does happen.

Yes. Aye. That's probably one of the reasons why Bancroft's such a nice shop to work at, we’ve got narrow alleys.



R- Aye, that's it. That's one of the points, it must be. Number 41, still carrying on with t'same job.

Aye good. That’s a good picture of the Roberts affliction.

R- Aye, that's it, aye.

What you could call a tackler’s stance.

R- That’s it, aye.

Now, come on, what are you actually doing there?

R- Well, I’m pushing the warp into t’back of the loom. And once it's in…

Yes, well, once it's in, 42…



R- Number 42…

What are you doing on that one, number 42?

R- Well, I'm still carrying on, shoving t’warp into the loom.

That's it, but you've got your knee, … you have lifted one end …

R- Well, there is this part knack.

On 41 you’ve one end in haven’t you.

R- That’s it, but I mean this, this warp weighs two hundred odd pound. And I mean, I’m no Charles Atlas! There is a knack, and it takes a long while to learn it. Really, I couldn't tell you how to do it, but you get one end in ..

You get one end in, and then you get hold of the other end and you get your knee behind it, and you rock back don't you.

R- That’s right, you lift it with your body.

You rock back and that lifts it. Yes. Now tell me sommat, Ernie, I think I’m right in saying so, in the old days they didn't use to use trucks did they?

R- No.

They'd carry a warp in, like that, on their shoulder.

R- Aye, but I don't think in the old days, they didn't have that stuff, you know. That's, that must be at least, oh ten times heavier than cotton. I think that twist, them threads, it's eighteens, and say you could .. well you can weigh a yard it if you want. But if you weighed, say a yard of that eighteens twist and eighteens cotton, I bet that would weigh ten times as much. Aye.

Aye, I never realised them warps were so much heavier than cotton.

R- Oh yes.

But I mean, a lot of the weight's in the beam isn't it?

R- Well aye, but they… it's 'very heavy stuff that, very heavy..

Yes, Right, 43.



R-Right, 43, Well…

We Progress.

R- Aye, first job’s chains on.

Now then, when you say chains, which chains are those?

R- Well, these chains go twice round what we call a collar.

Yes, on the end of the beam.



R- Aye. And the chain comes down, you can see it on 44, on to a lever, a weight lever. You put weights on the lever, however much it needs.

So, in other words…

R- Some sorts need a lot of weight. Some sorts don't need much weight.

Yes, in other words, when you put those weights on the end, it tightens that chain up on that collar, and there's one at each end, and that's acting as a brake on the beam isn’t it.

R- That’s right.

It's holding the beam back, so the loom's got to pull it through, and the more weight you put on, the more drag there is on the beam. And the tighter your warp is, as it is coming through the reeds. Coming through the healds and reed. Yes, that's it.

R- That's it, aye. That's it. You can't leave them without weight.

Yes, I remember seeing one, I think it was last year, it was one that, now wait a minute, Albert Gornall, [Albert was another of the tacklers at Bancroft.] and I’ve never seen a warp with as many weights hung on it in my life, they were tied together in bunches like grapes.

R- Oh aye. Well, there’s other ways you can do it without a lot of weights.

Oh I see, yes, well go on, you tell me.

R- How can I tell you? It’s all in relation you see? There is this bearer, an eccentric on the end, and …

That's the rocking rail on the back, that the sheet first goes over when it goes into the loom.

R- Aye, well you can, yes, you can call it a rocking rail that, if you like. But the proper name is bearer. And on t’end of t’bearer there is a arm, and it goes on to an eccentric pulley. When t’loom's running, every time t’healds are level at t’top, this bearer come up and takes the slack up you see? Well, there's ways of doing it with the tappets so that you don’t need so much weight. You can …

Aye, I see what you mean, aye. So that you are actually getting your tension when that arm comes up.

R- Aye, aye. You can either tread late or soon and well, Albert must not have known really. Well in fact I remember that job, I told him about it.

Yes, yes. Tell me something, have you ever seen anybody cutting holes in the floor to let the weights go down a bit lower?

R- No, it's a tackler's tale that, they also say that they file the bottom off a weight to make it so it doesn't bounce on the floor, but …

I’ll tell you what we have seen here, I think what we' d better say here is that both of us have seen grooves cut in the floors so as the rocking rail at t’bottom will run.

R - Oh yes, oh that's regular.

Because the feet of the loom have sunk into the flags and the middle flags come up. And we've had to, we've had to lift the loom over to one side, and chop a piece out of the flags so that the rocking rail at the bottom can turn without rubbing on the floor.

R - Aye. Oh aye.

And there's many a loom, when we've shifted them, the floor's been polished under the rocking rail hasn’t it?

R - Oh aye. It's rocking on t’floor.

Yes. I often. think it does them good, it tightens all bearings I think. (800)

R- Aye, I don't think it does them much harm. And then they're worn away you see, rocking rail ends, everything's going down hill.

Yes. Tell me something, something I once heard you say, about an old tackler once showing you a dodge. We were talking about things getting loose and worn. I think you know what I mean don't you? You tell me about it. This old tackler once showed you a dodge, you couldn’t get one loom to weave.

R- That's right. It's, sometimes they stiffen up, like in the bushes. And this loom of mine had gone stiff, and .. well, it wouldn't hardly run. And .. I hadn't been at it, oh a year or two I had been tackling, but it takes a lot of years to learn, and finally I went for this tackler, .. he was, oh he was an old man then, and this is thirty years since. I told Joe, they called him Joe Askham, and I asked would he come and have a look. So he came and he unscrewed all the main parts on the loom, cross rails and ..

Yes, the frame work, yes.

R- Aye, the frame work. And when he unfastened the last nut, it just settled down, shuddered really, and then we tightened them all up, and it were like a bloody sewing machine. That floor had sunk, and t’loom were like skew-whiff some way.

Aye, and it were, it were kaiking [twisting] in t’bearings somewhere and tightening ... (40 Min)

R- I said “Well, thank you Joe.” and he just grinned at me. Poor Joe, he's been dead a long while him. Now, he worked till he were eighty years old, seventy-nine.

As a tackler? Aye ...

R- Aye. Aye he did. And he retired and he died after about six months.

He retired, and then died after six months? Aye?

He had six months retirement and died.

If he had kept tackling do you think held have gone on longer?

R- Could have done, you never know.
[Very poignant transcribing this in 2002 because Ernie retired in 1978 when we closed down and was dead less than two years later because of a brain tumour.]

Yes. Well, I often wonder about that. What was the name of that old weaver we had at t’back on t’pensioners side on eight looms? What was her name, do you remember, right at the back. She was seventy six this year. [The pensioner’s side was on the main shaft side of the shed. They were all eight loom sets and the older weavers had them. Billy Two Rivers was there. They could often do more production on eight than some weavers on ten.]

R- Oh, at least. Aye. Well, there is one in there now seventy-four you know.

Who’s seventy four?

R- Polly [Polly Hodgson] . Polly down t’right hand-side, first weaver down the right hand-side, she joins with another weaver.

When you say right hand-side

R- Going in at the door, right hand-side here.

What, Muriel [Smith] ?

R- She joins with Muriel.

Is that the lady with white hair that comes in, is she over seventy?

R- Seventy-four.

Good God, you'd never think it would you to look at her? Aye ...

R- No. She is a, she is an old fashioned weaver, a good one.

I’ll tell you sommat about her, she won't go out of that shed and leave an end down for Muriel.

R- Oh no, no she won't.

She won't leave an end down for Muriel because before now, when I've gone to lock up at night she's asked me, she said “Will you wait - she said, I’m sorry but - she said -I have a bunch of ends down you know. I've just got a couple to take-up." And she'll take them up. And one week, I'm (850) not sure if I'm right, I think it were her .. it was. She came back Saturday morning.

R- Aye, she would do.

Because she must have been in on the Friday, and Muriel would be coming in on the Monday, and she came in Saturday morning, and asked if she could just go in t'shed for ten minutes. And I thought happen she had left her glasses because she does sometimes but she were taking a bunch of ends up.

R- Aye, well, she's an old fashioned weaver you see. There isn't so many about. Well, there won't be at seventy-four will there? But she is. There is ... it's a funny job somehow. There's, there's weavers in there, they are worth their weight in gold. You go in their alleys and it's like going in a little parlour, even in a muck hole like this. Everything in its place, and everything's clean.

Yes, and would you say ...

R- Myra. Myra’s alley, just go in there and have a look sometimes, or Polly's. I'd say Mary Wilkins's about the same..

Oh, Mary. Aye and well, me mother in law as well, Mary Hepworth. I’ve seen her polishing t’slay!

R- Oh yes, Mary. She were on her own I think. She went to extremes did Mary.

She does with everything. On the whole would you say that these weavers that are the really good weavers .. do you think it’d be true to say Ernie that they were the ones .. who, when they were learning to weave, they were hungry.

R- Aye. It's necessity that's made them like that, perfect, perfect bloody idiots.

Well yes, you say perfect bloody idiots but you know what I mean, and obviously I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I mean, we have talked about this enough. I mean we've talked a lot about this, but its it's beginning to dawn on me that that in order to make a good weaver they’ve got to have some sort of an incentive

R- Aye.

And nobody could ever say that the incentive has ever been money, or glory because I mean weaving has never been regarded an a skilled job. And the only thing that I can think is that .. it's like, you know they used to say about good boxers, you know, why did Negroes make good boxers. You know, they had to be hungry. And I often wonder whether it were the same with weavers you know.

R- I'm sure it were, because they had to be good or they were out.

Yes. And now that doesn't apply

R- No, it doesn’t apply now, not under this system that we live in now. I mean, you won't starve to death if you come out of work, not with this Social Security.

Which in some ways is a good thing, but in other ways is…..

R- Well I suppose it has, it must have its good points. I mean it' s abused we know but these conditions are a lot better than they were Stan.. I've never been as well off in my life.

I'm glad to hear you say it.

R- Well it's true.

I know it's true, and I think it's great because I think you deserve it. I honestly do. (900)

45 min


SCG/01 October 2002
8049 words


LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/14

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON SEPTEMBER 22nd 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.



[25 years later, one of the things that strikes me as I clean this tape up and transfer it to computer disc is the fact that we were in shock. There’s a note of anger and resignation that seems perfectly clear to me now. Remember that we had just been told that we would be out of a job just before Christmas. Further, Ernie and I knew that we were entering a process of attrition where the life of the mill would gradually wind down. I was tied into this. If I finished, they couldn’t run. Only Newton Pickles and myself could run the engine and I know Newton wouldn’t have done it because we discussed it. So, in effect, we were condemned to death by a thousand cuts. I mention this so that readers in the future can get a clear idea as to what was going on in our heads.]

(This tape would have been AC13, but seeing as it's Friday we are calling it AC14)

Let's have it off, go on .. Bloke who ...

R- Went to Blackpool for a day and he picked a loose woman up and she charged him half a crown and he went down on the sands, and , half way through t’operation she says "What do you do for a living?" He says "I'm a crane driver in t’quarry." She says "Well, lift the jib a bit, th’art in't muck hoil!”

Oh. Yes, aye, very good. Well, I'm almost sorry I left this tape on, but anyway we'll leave it where it is. Oh no, it's all right Ernie, I'm only pulling your leg.
[Apologies for that! Ernie was in full flow as I switched on and whilst I might tidy these transcripts up, I am not going to edit them.]

R- Well, you can scrub it out. You’d have to know about the quarry to know where the muck-hoil were.

Yes you would, aye. Aye, that's it, aye. Yes.

R - Oh, I remember when that quarry were employing a few hundred you know?

Which quarry were this Ernie? (50)

R - Salterforth Quarries.

Aye, Sagars had that did they?

R- Sagars aye. Old Sagar's daughter, I went to see a house that she had for sale and she says “Do you know, this is built from the best stone in the world? Salterforth stone." Well I says, “I think you’re charging too much."

That’d be Ida wouldn't it?

R – No, I don't think it were Ida, it were t’other one. I don't know what they call her, didn't they call her Rose?

Aye. I think it might have been. Ida were a funny old stick weren't she.

R- Aye, she were, well they both were. Old maids.

Aye. Tell me something. As you're going up Tubber Hill and you get to the top, and you know, you go up past our house [Hey Farm where I lived at the time.] and then you go up past Bancroft Farm and you get on to the next hill, and you go up t’next hill. Just before you get to the quarry, on the right hand-side there is a big fine stone-built house with a rockery made of big stones out of the quarry.

R- Aye, that was Sagar's house.

Do you know, I thought it must have been because the stonework on that house is beautiful, have you ever noticed?

R- Yes, it's a nice house,

It’s beautiful. That rockery must have five hundred ton of best Salterforth stone in it.

R- Oh aye, it will have. We once took a pig up to that farm at t’top of Salterforth Hill, took a sow up there to see the boar. And when we were coming back .. well its feet were sore and it went into that garden and we chased it all over the bloody place. It must have dug ten thousand daffodil bulbs up. (100)

Ten thousand?

R- There must have been ten thousand, there were bulbs everywhere.

Aye .. I’m beginning to get the feeling… I think you exaggerate a bit sometime.

R- Well, there were a lot.

‘Ten million flies on a…’ Anyway, let’s get down to the serious business of this tape. We’ve got that relaxed with these tapes that some people might say it isn't good oral history any more but anyway I think it is. On Wednesday this week, that's Wednesday the nine .. no wait a minute, it's Wednesday the twentieth of September 1978, the news filtered through to the lower echelons that we were all going to get the bullet.
[The notice giving us all notice of redundancy had been put on the shed door on this day. Ernie and I, together with everyone else in the mill, were facing redundancy square in the face].

R- That's right.

Now then, it's had two or three days to sink in, and .. without being.. I mean this really, without being bitter, or anything like that, think carefully about what you are saying, but I know you've been woven out before haven't you, how many times?

R- This'll be five times.

This is five times you have been woven out. Now, can you see any difference between this time and the others? When I say ‘any difference', you know, in the causes of the weaving out. (5 min)(150)

R- Well, first time if you remember, Widdups at Moss Shed wove out. That were, that were just for profit, there were no beating about the bush, it were a government scheme and manufacturers got forty pound for a loom that weren't producing cloth and sixty pound for a loom that were. To go out of business. And then they'd have price of t’scrap iron and all the rest of it. But they always find some excuse. First time, Widdups said to me, “Well, there is nobody to carry on." And he were getting old.

Were that one of t’sons or old Widdup?

R- It were John Widdup that said that to me.

He were the old one weren't he?

R- Well, they were all knocking on you know.

Aye but I think he, weren't he the father?

R- Aye, they called t’father Johnny but I never knew him.

Oh I see, so this John was one of the brothers.

R – That’s right.

Aye, and what were t’next shop that wove out?

R- Next shop .. next shop were Veevers at Brierfield.

What were the excuse there?

R- Bad trade, imports. They could import cloth cheaper than produce it here.

Chinamen living on a bowl of rice again. Aye. (200)

R- Well aye. Could be. Well, in fact, I think it's true you know? And then, after Veevers, Watsons at Earby, that's three. Bad trade. And then Pickles's in Barnoldswick .. bad trade, and now Bancroft, how many is that?

Yes but ... that's five but there, there's another ones. there's another one, you weren't actually woven .. well were you wove out at Calf Hall, at t’flood.

R - Oh they started up again after the flood.

They started up again, but …

R- Oh well, that were early days though, they did weave out, but they still carried on manufacturing, that were Blackburn Holdens.

Yes. Like they wove out and then started again didn't they? Aye. Well, what do you. think about this lot?

R- Well, what can I think? It's, there's been indications here for years, that this place were definitely closing down. This time I've been here either ten or eleven years and all the time it's been .. going down hill. There's been … and yet in that ten years, or eleven years, I don't think I've been on the dole above three or four times for an odd week. So they staggered on really. (250)

Yes

R- And it isn't a family concern, it belongs to a group, and it's big money. They talk about millions. And a bloody poverty stricken hole like this, not making a profit, it's chopped off. I'm amazed that it's run so long.

Well you know, I’ve always said to you, I've always said that there must be some reason that we knew nothing about, why they kept on.

R - Well that's what we used to think. I've heard it said that .. for Boardman,[The previous owners. K O Boardman of Stockport.] that's before it were chopped, before it were turned over to this Gunga Din, he had a licence to import a certain amount of foreign cloth so long as he produced a bit in this country. Now whether That’s true or not, but it sounds feasible. But now he's sold out. I don't suppose this Indian's bothered. I mean, I suppose his relations are manufacturing cloth in India, back to the bowl of rice. And big business is ruthless. I mean I'm uneducated, all I do read t’paper and books. And it's ruthless. We’ve never had any industrial trouble here, not once in all the years this place has been running has there been industrial trouble, apart from about 1926, when it were like .. all over Lancashire. All them years without industrial trouble. No “Trouble at t’mill” Only trouble here's been (300)(10 Min) on short time and, you know, running slack. Say in them days they were running four looms, they might only have two.

And yet, on the whole .. obviously I'm saying this to you because I know You agree with me. Bancroft is ... well, there is something about this place, I don't know, it’s….

R- It is. It fascinates people, how many bloody visitors do we get? Every nationality practically in the world .. coming to look.

Every one. [There’s a ]Picture of a Japanese bloke on t’wall behind you. Aye.

R - Aye. Is that him?

Yes. Toshiuko Ishuki.

R- Aye. My friend, Toshiuko Shiti!

Aye. And one little instance of that, I mean I know a little bit about this obviously, but you know when your wallet 'went diffi … [Diffi is army slang, short for deficient. It means missing.]

R- Aye, and I wonder who pinched that. It's been a worry to me ever since it happened about four years since. I always carried a few quid in a wallet in me pocket, hanging in the store room and when I got home one night, for some reason or other I wanted a pound. All gone, sixteen pound. It were a bitter blow to me that, I don't know who the hell could have got it. (350)

What was the worst thing about it, the fact that the money had gone, or the fact that so much money had gone?

R – No, the fact that the money had gone, if it had been a ten bob I should have still been sorry, because when you're working with people, you naturally trust them. Whether it was some off comer or not I’ve never known. But it happened, and it grieved me, and it still does. Still, that's water under the bridge, it’s just one black spot on my Bancroft career. To think that somebody could steal Ernest Robert’s hard earned cash.

Aye, how dare they? Anyway we are faced with a position now where we are, as they say, weaving out. Now, you tell me just exactly what the process of weaving out entails: you know, what’s the mechanics of weaving out? I mean you've done it five times now, you've got a fair idea.

R- Well, every warp in stock, and every warp in a loom has to be woven out. And as it gradually runs down… say, I mean now there is weavers with ten looms. Well, gradually they'll run down to maybe four or five and then the usual procedure is for that weaver to finish and be made redundant, though she has five warps left. Now what we have to do is lift them five warps and put them to another weaver’s looms, maybe one here, and two or three there. (400)

Something like that. So gradually, as weavers weave out, they finish one by one, until there is only one warp left. That'll take about, at least three months.

I were thinking meself you know .. I suppose Jim’s got a fair idea, but December the twenty-second .. because they've some sets to tape yet.

R- Aye but they are sets that weave quick, and they only half fill them

Aye that's it, and spread them out, half warps. Aye. Yes.

R- So that they're half, you see, they'd be out in a week or two, maybe a fortnight or three weeks, they'll be out.

Yes. So really, when you think about it, the first man to get the chop's the taper. (15 Min)

R- Oh aye, aye, he is always the first.

He is at the start of the process. So it'll be "Good bye Joe!” [Joe Nutter, Norman Grey left as soon as he saw the notice, he didn't want to wait until he was pushed]

R- Aye. And it's damned hard work for tacklers, damned hard work, because I mean, you've already gaited t’warp, and halfway through you've to be lifted out, put it in another loom and gait it up again. And it's possible that you'd have to lift it out again.

And then of course, there's always the thing that .. we should point it out now, that we, tonight, we've lost one of the, one of the tacklers anyway because Fred Inman. finished tonight.

R- Yes, he did.

So I mean, that increases the load on the tacklers straight away.

R- Aye, it does. But you see, Fred's retired, and the Union comes in, and well, it's a Union rule and that's it, he had to finish.

Yes, in other words ...

R- Like he's working for pin money is Fred.

In other words he is cutting your wages down actually, by working here when we are weaving out. In what way? (450)

R- Well I couldn't say…

Well you know what I mean, he is .. obviously Fred's got to be the first to go.

R- Aye that’s right.

And the management have evidently decided that they can dispense with his services straight away.

R – Aye, so he got the bullet.

The bullet. So we are weaving down, and .. one of the terrible things that's going to happen, I don’t know whether it's dawned on anybody else you know .. I mean we’ve had it happen here once while I've been here, but we are going to have the loom breakers in at the same time.

R - Well no, not necessarily.

I think we will Ernie.

R - Do you think we will?

I think we will. I think they are that bloody hungry and greedy. I think that they'll have to be straight in. I’ll tell you what they'll be doing. They'll be taking shafting and looms out as I'm running the engine to weave out. Because I do know for a fact, I don't suppose it’s meant to be common knowledge, but they've.. Jim, were on to Rushworths today.

R – Well, when a mill's weaving out they sent for these scrap iron merchants for offers. And that Rushworth you've just mentioned he is a very skilful man, he can walk in here and look around and say "So much” and they say he is a fair person you know, they'll get,, they ... I fancy they’ll get a better price off Rushworth than anybody else. Because I don't remember any other firm breaking looms up in Barnoldswick, only Rushworths. And oh there’s, there must he .. will there be thousands of tons of scrap iron in here?

It all depends how far they go, there'll be …

R - Oh they want every nut and bolt, they even pull bloody nails out of t’wall.

There'll be ..let's see, five hundred .. yes there'll be, there'll be getting on for a thousand ton.

R- There must be.

I mean, oh there must be, because I mean.. like loom’s will be about ... what?

R - I think they're four cwt. A forty inch Lancashire loom. (500)

Aye, well, I mean, what is there…Well you have about, so that's five to t’ton and ..

R- Aye … There is about six hundred.

Yes, so that's fives into six hundred is…

R- Sixty. No, we are going to be a long way off a thousand tons, but there is a lot of tons.

No. No, that's fives into six hundred, that's a hundred and twenty. That's hundred and twenty ton ..

R - One hundred and…. Aye. And there is thousands of loom weights.

Wells that's what I mean, there’s thousands of loom weights.

R- Big ones weigh fifty-six pounds.

And there's all the shafting. There's all t’brackets, and them brackets weigh about three cwt apiece you know.

R- Oh, do they? And there’s four….

And the brackets weigh about three cwt apiece.

R- Aye .. and there is poor old Mary Jane here.

Oh, there’s thirty-five ton in the flywheel. No, by he time, and that big line shaft you know, and the brackets… There is some weight in there because them big brackets on t’wall will weigh five or six cwt apiece you know. At least. (20 Min)

R- And then there is the iron pillars

Well, I don't think they'll take pillars and gutters.

R - I'm sure they won’t. T’bloody roof’ll fall in.

Aye .. no, but I mean I don't think they're going to actually demolish t'shop, but …

R - Oh no, they'll not demolish it, they can make this into a lovely mill.

But, well I mean, you look at the engine, you know what my feelings are about that.

R - Aye, and mine, aye, all the engines that's been scrapped, I felt sorry for. And then there’s old Clara the duck. I’ll have to see that, I’ll have to see …
[Ernie is talking about an old duck that lived on the dam. All the weavers used to feed it.]

Oh Clara’ll be all right, there’ll be plenty of folks feeding her.

R- Aye, I hope there is.

And we'll leave the dam full.

R- Oh leave t’dam full, aye.

We'll scrap the bloody hand wheel, [For the clough.] and they can’t open it. That's the first thing we'll do, lose the bloody hand wheel. If anybody starts asking any bloody questions I’ll break the bloody screw on the clough and then it can't be opened.

R- Aye. Yes. Because it's a terrible sight that dam when it's empty.

I think so.

R- It looks like, it looks like, you know, like it landed on the moon. Desolate.

Yes. I was just going to say, craters of the moon. That’ll soon grass over though you know, you’d be surprised.

R- I suppose it would.

Aye, it would soon grass over would that you know. It’s very fertile soil you know Ernie. Very fertile, there's all sort's been running into it for years. You could grow bloody tomatoes in that I’ll tell you. (550)

R – Yes, I bet you could.

Aye. Anyway, we’re getting a bit maudlin, a bit sentimental.

R- Aye, we are.

You know what Walt Fisher said about scrapping steam engines?

R - What did he say?

When they did away with the engines they did away with a lot of hard work. And it's right, it's right is that. I mean, you look at people like Charlie Sutton, been flueing boilers all his life, he’s buggered at fifty. He's got that many different sort of cancer they don’t know where to start. I mean, look at all t’people that's had to crawl under bloody boilers and flue ‘em and ….

R- Yes, I've been in t’flue, aye.

Scaling them and .. look at the firebeater's job, it's all right, but I mean, t’firebeater's job's no good. I mean .. this job in here .. all right, grand job, people come in, they think "Bloody hell he's got t'best job in t’world.” but you'll have noticed how I talk, a bit catarrhy, nasal, bunged up, [It’s the]oil in the air.

R - Oh there is oil in the air all the time. Aye.

Yes. That's why my nose is always snuffed up, always has been since I come to work here. And it's oil in the air, it gives you head ache.

R- Yes it will be.

I mean, it isn't so long since Arthur Morrison thought I had a bloody brain tumour, and that's all it were, bunged up sinus. Oh, he made up his mind that I had one.

R- You see, my life's been a hard working life, and it isn't long since I went, I had a pain .. I've only been to the doctor three or four times in me life.

Where exactly was this pain Mr. Roberts?

R - Near my heart.

Oh yes.

R- And I went to Doctor Whittle at Nelson, and he were a good doctor, he's retired now I think. Takes me shirt off and oh a pain at the heart and he tested me heart, blood pressure, and .. had a good listen back and front, and cough, give me a right good do, looked at me joints and then he sat down after he'd finished and looked at me. I were getting dressed. I sat down, I thought "Now for the bad news!” He said “Oh, first of all Mr Roberts. That pain, it's a kind of neuralgia, or rheumatism, it's nothing to worry about and I might tell you that you are a remarkable man." (600) And them were his exact words. I’d gone in there feeling knackered, and it's amazing, I come out prancing about. I called and had a pint or two on me way home and told the wife when I got home.

Aye. ‘My word you do look queer.’ isn't it, all over again, aye.

R - Aye. “A remarkable man - he says - for your age.” I were about fifty-six.

Well there is no doubt about it. I mean…

R - So it hadn't done me any harm, it's made me a funny shape, but apart from that, all me faculties and organs must be in working order yet.

Oh aye, but … anyway, to get back to ...

R- We seem to be drifting, about don't we?

We are drifting about a bit aye, we're going to have to do something about it Ernie. There was something in particular that I wanted to ask you, but this conversation has got so bloody interesting, it's gone completely out off me. Oh, I know what I was going to ask you. When you were weaving, … oh one thing that I did want to tell you, (25 Min) I knew there were something, this will sound terrible on the tape, I’m waffling like buggery but anyway, I was doing a tape with a little fellow called Arthur Entwistle last night, and he didn't weave for long, [He was] a musician all his young life, professional musician. He used to have a little band in Barlick called El Bonito and then they had one called …

R- Armageddon?

Rhythm Boys. And one called Broadway. Aye.

R-Aye. Well, none of them ring a bell.

No, but this was in old days. But anyway, he went weaving for a couple of years and he said two things that interested me. The first one was that with being in the band, you know, at the same time as he were weaving. He said many a time "'We were out while three o'clock in the bloody morning. Then I had to start weaving” And he said "I were on two loom, I'd just finished learning.” And he said, “What I used to do to keep meself awake, I used to sit on a buffet and sit so as when the slay come forward, it just tapped me on the back.” He said "If I started to nod off it used to give me a clout.”

R – Aye, I believe that. Aye.

Yes. And the other thing he said was that he couldn't stand it. He said, “I’ll tell you for why, you might think this funny but with being used to percussive noises” , he were a drummer, you know, and all the rest of it. He said " Do you know. (650) the noise of them looms - he said - I were hearing tunes all day."

R – Oh, it happens to me that.

I says to him, I says,” Arthur, you've just said exactly the same thing as Ernie Roberts.”

R - Aye, it happens to everybody, I don't know. But I can go in that mill with a tune in me head, and everything's in unison. All t’clattering and banging, all right spot on. Aye, oh aye. Oh I don't know why he gave up because .. machinery were singing to him.

Well, actually, he saw the light and went down Birmingham.

R- Oh yes.

Went down Birmingham in nineteen thirty-nine and got into the Maudslay and he's had a good life.

R- Oh it's a different life altogether to this. My wife’s sister's husband's just finished at Ferguson Tractors in Coventry. He's fifty-eight years old and he's come out with a thirteen thousand pound cheque, early retirement.

Aye …

R – It’s incredible isn't it.

Aye it is. When you look at some of these buggers here, they won't come out with thirteen quid, little Fred Cope, and Fred Greenwood and …

R - Uh no, they won't. There’s nineteen years, her that I call Corsets, she's retiring in two weeks on pension and she'll get nothing, not a meg. And I've known .. no end of people that's worked fifty years for one firm and they haven't even said “Tara” In fact in one case I remember in particular .. when this woman left he [The manager] said "A bloody good riddance and all, she's got past it." That's after a lifetime's work.

Where were that?

R- That were here.

And who were it. Who were it that left?

R- What do they call that bloke that used to .. him with the club foot, he used to drive this engine. Billy .. it were his sister.

Not Grace, no, not Grace. It weren't Billy Grace were it? No.

R- No, not Billy Grace, no, Billy .. oh it's a long while since. Not Billy Grace. Billy Chatwood.

Chatwood.

R- Chatwood, it were his sister, worked here all her life, and they were making some redundant .. oh it must be seven or eight year since .. trade were bad. And all them that couldn't claim redundancy were sacked, and they must have forgot about Billy's sister, that she could claim redundancy. And she said to Jim Pollard “If you sack me Jim, you'll break my heart." And them were her exact words. And he found out he couldn't sack her without (700)(30 min) paying her. So she carried on until she was sixty [Pension age for women at that time]. And she’d worked here forty years, say, all her working life she'd been here. And she were crippled up with rheumatics, She were, she were past it. But it .. I mean, a faithful servant "Bloody good riddance" Not very nice is it?

No .. one thing worries me, you know I mean, one thing worries me about the way that .. you must understand when I say this I’m not criticising the way you talk about the manufacturers, because I mean, Christ knows you’ve got something to talk about ... But have you ever come across anybody, any manufacturer who you would say, who you'd class as a good bloke and a good employer?

R- Well I, I've never known one personally, but I've heard a tale of what you might call hand outs, to somebody that were in dire straits. Not very often, but I think it's happened occasionally.

I mean, what we are talking about now, isn't there ., (beg your pardon) not the general run of what you call a good employer, but somebody that was well I mean, almost saint-like you know. Somebody that would do something… I’ll tell you one story I heard the other day, it was Daniel that told me, Daniel Meadows. When that place at Fence wove out .. what was the name, at Fence?

R- A little family concern.

Yes, when they wove out, there was one woman there that had been there for God knows how many years, due for redundancy, and she'd been away for just six weeks about half way through it, and they overlooked it. And I thought at t’time, I thought .. Well I mean, I don't know whether there is a rule covers something like that, but assuming there isn't and they could have held her to the .. minimum you know. It’d be a smaller amount, you know. I thought .. Well, I thought, that's a nice little story that. It shows that there is a little bit of heart in the job somewhere you know. (750)

R- Aye. I remember just after the war when I were weaving at Pickles, when I come out of the army, and things had bucked up in general you know. Britain's bread hung by Lancashire thread. Weavers were like worth their weight in gold, you could even go ten minutes late and nobody'd say owt. Everybody in t’canteen at this certain time. So we all went into the canteen and this is t’first time in my lifetime I've seen owt like it. And there were a talk down you know. You'd think you were .. exploding a bloody rocket to t’moon all the bullshit what went on. And they were presenting a cheque for fifty pounds to a woman that had worked for Pickles fifty years and she were retiring. And it were made a bloody public spectacle, a big thing, fifty bloody quid.

Yes. Now I’ll tell you sommat now. I'll tell you sommat now, that interests me. A lot of people who aren't in .. I mean, I class meself with you in this respect. I’m not saying that my upbringing. has been as hard as yours, it hasn’t, nowhere near, but we are both workers. Now a lot of people won't be able to understand our attitude to that. A lot of people who are in better circumstances will think 'Well, fifty pounds, it was very nice." It was a nice thing for them to do to show their appreciation

R – Aye. That's right.

... and give fifty pound, but I know that you look at it the same as I do. That were fifty pound ..

R- A pound a year. Aye.

... that were a pound a year. Now just hold on a minute, that were a pound a year .. so that were roughly just under a penny a day for a working life. There was two hundred and forty pennies in the old pound.

R- Aye there were.

... It was less than a penny a day during a working life. And when you come to consider what that woman had done for them, I look at it in the same way as you do, I think that something like that .. and I know, as I say a lot of people won't be able to understand this attitude, but I think it's a bloody insult.

R- Yes, I think it is an insult.

And I’ll tell you where the same thing goes on now .. and they make a big thing of it, Johnson’s.

R- Oh yes, Johnson’s, they have a pension scheme and…

Now, Johnson’s of Earby, Harry Crabtree and his wife retired, and they had I don't know how many years service in with Johnson’s, between them, and it's an American firm that owns 'em now. And what they did, they took ‘em down London …

R- Yes .. gave them a right good do. (800)(35 min)

They gave them a right good do and all the rest of it, and had him with his toupee on, down there you know, lapping it up ... Now I'm not saying it weren't a grand thing. I'm not saying that Harry and his wife didn't enjoy it, but I have that sneaking suspicion at the back of my minds that the people that had to go to that function…

R- Would go near the door, exit.

The managers and the directors that had to go to that function, when they went and the wife said "Where are we going tonight?" and they'd say "Oh, it's another, you know - it's one of them bloody present ..” “Oh Christ!” you know.

R - Oh aye. "There is a good old couple coming up, coming down from Yorkshire.”

Aye. "There’s some bum coming down from Yorkshire" you know. And "Oh, it isn't another of them is it?"

R- Aye. Though I’ll give Johnson’s their due…

But no, but you see, the thing is, it may be me, but I have that sneaking suspicion and I always think that .. I'd rather do without the bloody presentation ceremony.

R- Oh, I would.

I'd rather that they just paid a fellow what he were bloody well worth.

R – Aye. And call it a day.

And call it a day.

R- But it's a good firm is Johnson’s, in comparison. I mean .. that fellow had come out with a few thousand pound, I don't know how much. They've had a pension scheme for a long while.

Oh yes, it's a good firm. What were you just saying about Susan Longbottom? How much is it worth?

R- I don't know what it’s worth.

You understand what I mean don't you? Which would you rather have, Bancroft and the bullet or the conditions at Johnson’s and the golden handshake?

R- Oh .. I’ll have Bancroft.

I think I would. Now there is another thing that people will probably find hard to understand. Somebody might listen to this tape in hundred years, and I mean, they might have given up bloody working then, they might have chimpanzees doing it for them, I don't know. But wouldn't you agree with me that to a working man, his place at work, really is the best bloody club he's got.

R- Oh, it is, oh aye. If you are not happy at your work, well, I mean, in my experience I've gone working at places and thought, after a day or two, this in no good for Ernest.

Aye, and one of them were Johnson’s come to think.

R- Aye it were, I only lasted three weeks, I’m forgetting about that. Aye. No, it wouldn't do for me, they were all miserable.

Aye. Getting dangerous Ernie. I know too much about you.

R- I like a bit ... Aye. I like a bit of fun. I mean, we've had lots of fun here, real fun, laughing, not that bloody raucous ha ha has, real laughing, bloody tears coming out of your eyes. That’s laughing.

That's it.

R- I've had some good laughs here at different things happening. And there were no laughing at Johnson’s so we’ll just forget about Johnson’s. (850)

Aye, the golden handshake ...

R- Oh yes, oh I’m right….

But .. anyway, we’ll get back to the job now. We’ve just, had a short rest, just had a parade round the engine house and you'd just started telling me sommat about shuttles that should have been on the tape.

R. Aye

Well, no names no pack drill, but anyway, there is a tackler trying to get two ends to weave but ...

R- Yes, and he couldn't manage it. So me, I mean I'm no bloody expert, but years and years, you pick these…

Wrinkles?

R- Aye, wrinkles you can call them. And .. you can get this fault on a loom, even one end or two, or a dozen, and it’s a picker. It's throwing the shuttle wrong, and I just said, “Put an off-side picker on.”

So, in other words “Put the wrong picker in"

R- No, there is an off-side and an on-side to a loom as I told you before …Off-side. It could he left or right. He'd know, he knew which I meant. And he did that and it were all right. But he hadn't been doing the job so long you see. You can call it, what can you call it, expertise.

Experience.

R- Or experience, aye.

Aye. It's just knowing.

R- It is.

But I mean .. a lot of people can't understand. I mean, I'm actually encroaching on one of me own tapes here, I haven't made any yet, but I can do them any time. But .. I sit in that chair all day, and you know that I know if that far crankpin's running short of oil I know.

R- Because you can hear, you can hear it.

Well, I don't know whether you can or not, but Bob Parkinson said to me one day, I set off round the engine, and I come back and he says "What were up?" I says "That oiler’d stopped at that side.” “Eh he said - is it hot?” I said "No - I said - it just started, but it were short." He said “How did you know?" And I honestly didn't know, I honestly didn't know.

R- No. It must ... It must be instinct.

Well it's, I think actually what it is, I have me own theories about it. I think that actually .. the brain hears a lot more than it lets you know it's hearing.

R- Aye. I suppose it's possible that.

You know what I mean?

R - Aye.

Because I know that if I consciously try and do it, I can sit there while t’engine's running, and a lot of people .. I mean it isn't really noisy for t’size of it, but it does make a fair bit of noise, you've got to raise your voice.

R - Oh aye

But I can think of a part on that engine, you know, say the piston rings in t’far cylinder and I can listen to them, and you couldn't hear them. And I sometimes wonder whether I can hear them, but I can listen to them. I’ll tell you (900)(40 min) a little thing that happened one day, and it were bloody funny and all. I was sat in that chair, and I had a noise on the engine and I couldn't reckon up what it were. I had a squeak, and I only got it at certain times, and I couldn't reckon this bloody squeak up anyhow. And I'd sat in t’bloody chair all morning trying to reckon it up. And I’ve walked round the engine, I couldn't find it... And yet when I heard it, it were as plain as day. And I thought to meself, "There's something bloody wrong here", and I knew that there were something. I knew that there were something funny about it. It didn't worry me a lot, it wasn’t worrying me as if I thought that something was going to overheat and do some damage or something like that, it was nattering me, because I knew that I should know what it was. I knew that .. you know you have this feeling, you know that there's sommat obvious and you can't see it. It's like everybody laughing at you, you know, and you walk into a room and you think "Christ Almighty, what is it?" and you look down to see if your fly hole's fast, you know. You know there's sommat but you don't know what it is, and it natters you. And, well I thought about this all morning. Well, well aye, on and off all morning, anyway it were no bloody good, I couldn't find it, so I went all round at dinner time and I hear this bloody squeak again, and I found out what it was. Do you know what it was?

R- What?

It were the bloody handle on the oil can. It sounds bloody silly. But you know, when you're oiling t’engine, when you're doing anything on the engine, you do it in time to t’engine, because you've got to do to hit moving parts.

R - That's right ...

.. you know, you get into the rhythm .. because there is all them little oil holes moving round, you know, and you've got .. and you get into the rhythm you know, and you can sing to yourself you know, as you are doing it, and plonking [a drop of oil in each hole] And as you put it in, when you're pressing the thing, you know, the engine's going thump, thump, and you are pressing the [handle of the oil can] you are pressing away, and of course it was squeaking in time with the engine! Who the hell’d ever think that an oil can that's covered with oil is going to squeak?

R - You wouldn’t would you?

And it were a new oil can. And I looked and I thought "well, you dizzy bugger" and I put a drop of cylinder oil on, and do you knows that oil can’s never squeaked since. And that reminds me of sommat else Newton told me, it's funny is this. What's his name? Hedley Bradshaw in Earby, he was running Spring Mill engines and he rung Newton up one morning and he says "Newton - he says – could you come up and look at t’engine?" Like he were, he were always a bit careful were Hedley you know, I mean .. you know, he was the sort of, a belt, braces and a little bit of string in your pocket just in case owt happens you know? And Newton says "Aye - he says - what's up?” "Well - he says – I’ll tell thee - he says - I have a little tune that I whistle to t’engine - he says - when I go round it in the morning. And - he says - this morning - he says - me tune wouldn't fit t’engine. Tha’d better come up and have a look" So Newton went up and t’bloody engine were running slow you know, that were it, that were what was up. But you know, that sort of thing, he didn’t know what were up but he knew there were sommat, he’d done his job. He’d done his job, there were nowt wrong with Hedley, he'd done his job. He didn't know what it were but he got
somebody there that told him what it were. But thing that put him on to (950) it, his tune wouldn't fit the engine that morning.

R- Yes, that's right.

Which sounds silly.

R- Ah, but if you know, I mean, I can, oh it’ll he true that will.

Experience, experience.

R- Yes, aye.

It's like the plumber isn’t it? The woman that .. they had the bloody cylinder dinged, she sent for the plumber and he come and took one look at it and whistles to himself and thumped it on t’side with his hand and it just sprang out, “Pong!” She said ~ “That's good - she says - how ---much do I owe you? And he said "A quid" "Well - she says, you've only been here two minutes." He said "That's right, half a crown for coming - he says - and seventeen and six for knowing where to hit it!" And it’s right.

R- Aye, did I ever tell you that tale about plumber who rung t'doctor up? His wife weren't so well. And just as he rung up, this doctor were getting ready to go out to a function, done up in bloody tails and black tie and everything you know .. And plumber says “She is not well at all - he says - I wish you'd come and see her.” "Oh - he says I'm going to a function, give her a couple of aspirins, I’ll come in t’morning." He gave her a couple of aspirin and she bucked up. A few weeks later t’doctor rung the plumber up. "Eh - he say - I wish you'd come right away Joe,” like they were on friendly terms. Joe says "What's up?" He says "The toilet’s overflowing - he says – there’s shit everywhere." Plumber says "Give it a couple of aspirin and I’ll come in t’morning.”

Anyway, there you are. This tape's just been a little bit bitty but there are some good bits on it.

R - It can be edited though can’t it? You can knock them little bits out.

Oh we are not bothered about editing it. I mean we've done … I look at it this way, Ernie, we've got one or two tapes to do yet. We've done twelve bloody good tapes so we might as well enjoy ourselves on one.

R- Is that how many we've done? Twelve?

This is tape number fourteen.

R- Aye, it is.

And we’ve missed thirteen out so we've done , this is actually the thirteenth tape.

R- By gum we’ve been like a couple of bloody old washerwomen chattering!

Yes but, when you come to think about it, I don’t think in, say a hundred years, the people that listen to this tape’ll think that. Not for one minute.

R- No. Well, what I've heard of them it’s interesting, them bits that I have heard.

Yes, but I mean, what we've actually been talking about .. and I'm saying this to people that aren't even born yet, and that’s one of the things that I think that the people who do eventually listen to these tapes should realise is that we know that that’s what we are doing.

R- Oh aye.

We are talking to people who haven't even been born yet. And the idea of doing these tapes is to give them an idea of the sort of things that interested us, the way we looked at things, and I mean, I’m not saying we are right. I mean, there is no doubt about it that when you start playing hell about Methodists you are prejudiced Roberts!

R- Oh .. well I may be. I might be prejudiced, I don't know. (1000)(45 Min)

And when I’m on about retirement gifts I am prejudiced but that's not the point. The point is that this is the way that we thought.

R- Aye.

You see, I’m talking in the past tense, that's the way we think now. We think these things, we've had certain experiences and that's the way we've been brainwashed if you like, into thinking.

R- Well only today one of my young weavers came to me, she is eighteen this week and she said to me “Ernest, do you think my generation has it made" I said "Yes I do." she says “How, the hell do you make that out?" I says "Well I once saved seven and six to buy a bloody hat and it took me about six weeks - I says - If you want something, in comparing prices it'll not take you six weeks to buy it. So times must be a lot better, and I think you have it made"

Well, just take hats. It don't take them six weeks to save up for a hat now.

R- No. But it took me six weeks, and it were an Attaboy hat and I felt like a million dollars, I think I told you about it before.

You did, you got it pinched.

R- I went up to t’Majestic and some swine pinched it. I'd have chopped his bloody hands clean off.

Yes but you know that's what I call the lollipop theory of economics. You see it works. Instead of thinking how much a thing costs convert it into lollipops, you see, Say lollipops are five pence each and you're buying sommat for a quid, well it costs twenty lollipops to …

R- That's right.

Well .. if you were to go forward into the future you'd find that some things will .. if you were looking at the same thing then, some things will cost more lollipops and some things will cost less lollipops. And one of the things I have great difficulty in getting across to a lot of people is that a lot of things are a lot cheaper nowadays than they were twenty, thirty years ago. If you reckon up how long you've got to work to earn them you can have them in no time.

R- Oh yes, of course you can.

But the thing is, the funny thing is, they are all luxuries. Those things that are cheaper are all what you’d call luxuries. The things that you'd call essential all take longer to earn. It's right is that, you think about it.

R- Yes, more than likely right.


SCG/05 October 2002
8242 words



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/15

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON SEPTEMBER 29th 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.

Christ Almighty! Trust you to cough as soon as I turn it on! Eh, dear, dear dear. Anyway, we’ll continue with these pictures. I’ll just stop now for a second or two to give us a gap, so don’t say anything, you know, and then it can, then it’ll be easy to start on this tape when we start. You know, if we are using it, so we just have a gap now.
Right, last week we’d got up to number 43 ...


43

R- Yes.

And you are gaiting this warp, and there you’re just putting the weights on to the chain; and 43 you’ve got through that, the weights, and the levers. You remember, bunches of weights that look like grapes and what not, on that set of Albert Gornall’s.

R- No, I haven’t got to the weights stage yet, just chains.

Oh well, you were telling me all about ... ah, that’s it yes, but you were telling me last week all about the weights.

R- All about weights, aye, aye.

That’s it, aye. There’s something I’ve just noticed on that number 43 actually, what’s all this on that chain? (50)

R- Oh! Oh well, that’s a piece of beating tied on to the chains so you can hang another weight on.

Oh I see, that’s on the ...

R - For when there isn’t enough room on the lever.

Yes, that’s on the loom that that weaver’s working on ...

R- That’s right.

... that white band that’s coming off that chain, that’s for another weight, like that’s been, obviously ...

R- That’s a Heath Robinson contraption, Aye.

Yes, aye. Right, 44. You’ve got your chains on, you’ve got your warp actually into your loom, and you’re just leaning on the, just leaning on the, well, I call it the rocking rail but it isn’t the rocking rail, what is it called?


44

R- No, that’s the bearer.

Bearer, leaning on the bearer. and then?

R- No, I’m not leaning on it, I’m just grasping its ready to lift it down, you see?

Oh!

R- On to the top of the warp, and then I’ll thread it through, there is a loose bar, I’ll thread it through that loose bar, and then across.

Aye, that’s it. You have got to thread that heald, and…

R- Well I have to thread the yarn.

Yarn. Well, you’ll have to thread the healds through won’t you, and the reed.

R - Oh aye, aye, well all the lot goes through. Aye.

Yes, all the lot’ll go through, that’s it. Because it’s got to be, it’s got to pass round that bar, for the bar to act, while it’s…

R - That’s it.

For that, that bearer, for it to act when the eccentric pushes the lever.

R- Aye, that’s right.

We did that as well last week, about the eccentric and the lever.

R- We did, aye.

Tell me something. On the frame of that loom, just in front of your right hand, there is what looks like a bunch of threads hung down. Your right hand, that’s where, tell me about them.

R- Well, they call that beating. It’s just a bunch of loose ends, so that if an end breaks, which they do, they use one piece of that to (100) lengthen it so that it’s long enough to thread through the healds and reed, then you start weaving again.

That’s it. Yes, aye. And of course, in a perfect world that will be the same sort of yarn as the yarn that’s on that warp won’t it?

R- That’s right, aye.

Yes. Now, we’ll go on to 45 now Ernie..



R- 45. Well, there I am look, threading the healds and the reed and the yarn and all the bag of tricks through the bearer. I’m just going to grab that loose bar. And, well, you can see, I’ve moved the beam forward and then lifted the healds and reed over this bar that’s fast. And when I’ve done that, I’ll get that loose bar, put that across and lift the healds and reed again to go right over.

Aye, that’s it. Because that, on that bearer, that bar that will come out, you tie them in with a bit of band don’t you, when you put them in?

R- Aye, well, sometimes, when the beam’s getting down towards downing, the weaver might leave t’weight on, and it’ll pull that bar out. And there’s a, and that could he a mess.

Aye. Yes.

R- A bit slow tonight aren’t we.

Aye, 46.



(150)(5 Min)

R- It’s only, it’s a slow process. 46, well I’m still making progress; I’ve threaded it, you can see the yarn coming up between these two bars and I’m lifting the healds and reed forward so that I can hang them up and then put the lap on.

Yes. So there, you are actually lifting the healds and reeds up and passing them right through the frame of the loom, towards the front of the loom.

R- That’s right.

Over, over the slay, over the .. aye.

R- Aye ... Over the bearers and over the top shaft, on to the front.

Yes, that’s it. Aye, go on to 47.



R- Ah, 47, well ...

Now then, you’ve had a move now.

R- I’m working, I’ve finished behind the loom now. I’ve gone to the front of the loom. And first of all I’m taking the temple caps off - I’m just lifting one off there, look. And this one on the left hand-side, I’ll take that off.

Now, temple caps, they’re, those are on the temples. Now, what are the temples for Ernie ?

R- To grip the cloth as it’s weaving forward, pulling it sideways at each side to get a bit of width and hold the cloth firm, so that… I mean it, they wouldn’t go without them.

So, in other words, if the temples weren’t there your cloth’d come in narrow with the tension as it came through and that would mean it’d never go back to the right width again because when the weft went through it, it would be too short a piece, it’d be holding it together. Aye.

R- Yes. Aye well. Because the thicker the weft, the more contraction there is. And the temples hold it out.

Yes. And it’s good to see that bearer at the back now isn’t it, how that’s threaded through.

R- Oh aye. Aye.

Now all the threads are beginning to come through individual. Yes, right, 48.



R - Oh, 48, I’m still making a bit of progress. Look, hanging the healds up on the dolly leathers. There’s a bar runs across, you just can’t see it here, you just can about see a little bit of it.

Ah! That’s what you call the scotch dobby isn’t it ?

R- Well, no, this isn’t a scotch dobby. A scotch dobby has two healds, two staves, this one has four... And…

Ah yes. Yes, but it’s on that roller at the front isn’t it? It’s that, that bar that will, like, on a roller at the front ...

R- That’s right.

It’s a, you are hanging them on there, yes.

R - Dolly bar.

Yes, Dolly bar.

R- Aye, so that they rock.

Yes. Now, when you are hanging them up on there, that’s not just as easy an operation as it, as it looks I know. Now…

R – No, it isn’t.

What are you looking for there? Now, let me ask you one or two questions about it Ernie. How do you determine what level you’re going to hang them healds at? You know? I mean, how would you know whether you had them too high or too low, when you are adjusting them strings there?

R - Oh well, there is a warp came out of this loom, and it… All healds are supposed to be the same depth within, you know, sometime 1/16 of an inch happen, sommat like that. And you hang them up, and nine times out of ten you don’t need to adjust them bands again.

Aye, so it’s the bottom bands that… When you were readying that warp upstairs it weren’t the top bands you were altering then ?

R- No, no. These top bands are hanging on the loom all the time, It’s the bottom ones that you let out.

Aye. Aye so, so what have you, those top bands then, what have you fastened them on to? On the heald?
(250)

R – Well, you thread them through the heald, right through the staves, and then you pull your band up an hook your band on a metal hook. And then you …

Aye, so you are not actually tying a knot, there is a hook on the end of it.

R- Oh no, no you don’t tie any knots there. And then you double your band again, and hook it on again, so that you get the right, these are at full length, but you lift them up, and you’ll notice on the next picture they are only half a length. You can see, hooks and everything there, look…
(10 Min)

Yes, that’s it, aye. Yes, on the next picture, number 49.



R- Nine.

That’s it, you can see all the hooks can’t you, on the end of the leather. Aye. So the ones that you adjust are the bottom ones that are going down to – now, what do you call it?

R- Lamb rods. Aye.

Lamb rods, aye, and it goes on to a lamb wire, doesn’t it?

R - That’s right.

That’s on the lamb rods at the bottom. Aye. And those lamb rods are actually controlled by the tappets aren’t they, under the loom?

R- Aye, yes.

What, is that what you call the undermotion, your tappets under there?

R – Yes, it is the undermotion. You get two leaves for this particular warp, three leaves for a Jane, four leaves for twills and five leaves for sateens.

Aye. And the most we go up to is four isn’t it, here?

R – Well, we’ve had five a long while since.

Yes, aye, and that’s actually the number, when you say leaves, that’s the number of the actual tappets, roses, themselves don’t you call them ... ?

R- That’s right. That control the lift.

Yes, that’s it. Well, later on we have got a picture of you changing the tappets on a loom, so we can go on to that in a minute or two. Now, as yet, there’s no tension at all on that warp is there. That’s just laid there loose. That’s it.

R- Oh no…And I’m, see…All these ends are tied up in bunches.
(300)

At the front, that’s it.

R- Aye. And I’m, now, undoing them bunches one by one.

That’s on number 49. Yes.

R- Aye. And what I’ll do is put them all straight, and pull them down at the front of the loom, and like, grip them on to the sand roller.

Yes, well that’s in these other pictures.

R- Aye.

Yes, you’ve done quite right here. Now, all the time you are doing this of course, the weaver is still working in the alley isn’t she?

R- Oh aye, carrying on with the other looms, weaving.

Aye, that’s it, aye. Yes. Right ...

R- Can you see the intense concentration on my face?

Well

R- I’ve got, I’ve got my mind miles away.

Is that right, does it get nearly automatic?

R - It’s possibly the way, it must be after 30 years. Still you have got to watch what you’re doing, you couldn’t be blindfold.

Aye, no, could you heck. Now then, number 50. Different wheel.



R – Yes, well, you can see now what I’m doing. Taking them threads and straightening them out and pulling them down the front, ready to… Once I’ve done that, I wind it on to the sand roller, all that loose yarn, but I must keep it straight and taut. If I don’t do that, then the job’s a baddun.

Because if you don’t start it weaving right

R - It wouldn’t go.

It wouldn’t go. No.

R- No this is the most important part to gaiting a warp, any simpleton can do the rest of it, but you must get that lap on straight and tight.

Yes, well, 51, that’s just another stage of … Number 51 is where you’ve…



R- Aye, yes, well I put the reed in the reed case there. And that’s a little bit further.

Yes, well now, I’ve left a gap on the tape there because that’s as far as we can go with these pictures on this…
(350)

R- Oh, is it.

I have to print them other pictures of gaiting the warp, and we’ll slip that bit in, you see, and we’ll piece them two tapes together, it’ll be all right. But there, you did it in a slightly different order on this one, must have done, than you did on the other one, because on the other ... No, what it is, I’ve missed doing the photograph of you putting the reed in the reed case on this one.

R- Oh aye.

Now, on the other, I have it. But, on this picture number 51, I think it gives a very good idea of how those healds are hung up at the top, and what the general arrangement is at the top of the loom. I mean, you can see that little roller across the front that’s carrying them. And that’s only like an idler that’s controlled by the movement of the ...

R- That’s underneath, Aye.

The healds underneath isn’t it? I mean, as one’s pulled down the other one goes up, It’s as simple as that.

R- Yes that’s right, aye.

And actually, you haven’t done anything about fastening those bands on at the bottom, those are still hanging down slack under the loom.
(15 min)

R - Yes they are, aye.

Yes. And the temple caps aren’t back on and everything’s just hanging about.

R- Aye, it is. I don’t fancy that hair cut. Poor hair cut that isn’t it?

Ah well! We can leave that now for a bit, and further, because you’ll find there’s some blanks in here now because those other pictures have to be done. And then we come to picture number 52, which is a picture of …?



R- Empty looms.

An empty loom. Yes, that’s it.

R - A bit mucky.

That loom’s a bit mucky. Yes. That’s actually one loom which went redundant, it were never gaited up again, it’s one of them at the front that used to be in Elva’s set.

R- Oh is it?

Yes, and I must have done it when it [The mill] were stopped because the belt isn’t moving, you can see the stitching in the belt. There’s a thing, on the right hand-side of that picture; if you look, you can see the stitching in the belt. That isn’t the joint that you make, is it?
(400)

R- No, that’s the joint made by the makers.

You can see the joints that you make, at the back.

R- That’s my joint. Aye.

Aye, with two belt fasteners. Aye. In the old days did they stitch the belts in the shed?

R- No, I’ve never heard of then being stitched in the shed because there’s been different types of fasteners.

Yes, well, we have one of them hook fasteners haven’t we? Bloody things them. Just imagine one of them, because you have got to put them on with the hook coming round. [Facing in the direction of motion.]

R- Yes, dangerous.

God! If one of them got caught in your overalls.

R – Oh, away you go.

You’d be away.

R - Straight to heaven.

Aye. Aye, there’d be no messing about. Now then, it’s a fair picture of a loom, you can see all the, there ‘s three tappets in there isn’t there?

R- There’s three. Yes, because you can see three leaves,

Three leaves, yes.

R- And that must have been weaving a Jane, three…[Jane is a local term for a Jeanette, a type of cloth.]

Aye, that’d be one of the last warps Elva had. Oh no, there were a woman on after Elva wasn’t there? Aye.

R- Aye,... Yes there were. In fact they have only just stopped not long since you know? What a bloody derelict hole it looks.

Don’t they, an empty loom, they look terrible, don’t they. Go on to 53, see what we can make of that one. Now then ...

R- Now then, here I am. Well, I’m ...



53 Is a shot of Ernie praying.

R- Aye. No, I am getting a bit technical there. I’m changing this loom from weaving, well it must be a Jane, has that three leaves there?

Yes.

R - Well, I have taken that off, these three leaves off, that’s been weaving a Jane, and I’m going to put this one on with four leaves, that’ll weave a twill. And, there’s other types of cloth you can weave with four leaves. Drills, twills, herringbone twills and what we call a Florentine, all different patterns of cloth that.

Good stuff.
It makes you wonder where all the different names of cloth came from doesn’t it.

R- It does that. Aye, like why call it a twill.

Ah well, that’s it, aye there’s more. Well, I mean, everybody accepts what a twill is don’t they, but I mean, it’s….
(450)

R- Aye, they do that.

There’s more different names for cloth

R- And there is left-hand twills and right-hand twills.

Aye. Tell me sommat, what’s a Leno?

R- Oh, that’s a special heald, a Leno, weaving special cloth. That’s a very skilful tackler that can tackle Lenos. It makes like .,, well, it’s similar to knitting is Leno cloth. You can see the ends are like, wiggly.

Yes. I always think of Dan Leno, I see it, you know, and I see that every now and again.

R – Ah, Dan Leno. Aye.

Anyway…

R - But it’s dying out, you knows It’s…

Oh aye.

R - Nearly gone.

54. Just have a look at 54, you are just on here. But you can see that you’ve taken the leaves off that shaft underneath and …



R - Yes. And you can see here the wheel, that’s a twill wheel. There’s three sizes of wheel, small wheel for a plain warp, next size for three leaves, and the big size for four leaves.

Yes. So what we are actually talking about is the gear wheel that’s lay on the floor ...

R- That’s right.

... In the front of the picture. And that gear wheel goes on the end of that …

R- Shaft

…shaft.

R- It fits into what we call three decker. There’s three wheels fast on the shaft.

Yes. Well, you can just see them in that picture, you can just see it.
(20 Min)

R- Oh yes, you can, aye.

... on the left hand side of that picture, on the end of the shaft you can see two of them, just. Yes.

R- And that’s all geared up to the speed of the loom and how many turns for each pick, you know?

That’s it, yes.

R- The same as four leaves’ll go at, what, four times, healds’ll go four times slower than, or twice slower than two wheels. Than two.

Than two, that’s … aye. And that’s your three set of roses that’s lay just by your left knee there, isn’t it?

R- Aye. You have got to be right or they won’t go. Ah, it looks like I have a plain tappet in my hand there, is it?

Aye, it looks like it.

R- I don’t know what’s going on, really. It’s soon…
(500)

Anyway it’ll all become clear when you turn the page and have a look at the next one, you’ll see what’s happening. Now then, that shows what you were talking about, three decker, it shows it plain doesn’t it?

R- That’s it. Oh, it’s a good picture that. [Tackling picture 55.]



Yes. Now then, you’re just sliding the shaft through, that’s the set of tappets, you’re putting in isn’t it? Countershaft, aye.

R- That’s the countershaft. Aye, I’m sliding it through, and the tappets are on.

Yes. That’ll mount your tappets underneath, and then that gear wheel that you were talking about’ll go on that bare end of that countershaft won’t it?

R - That’s right.

Aye. How is it held on Ernie?

R- Two set screws, they go right through and fasten on to the shaft.

Aye, yes.

R- And this three deckers fastened with set screws, you can see one on there, look.

Yes, you can see one, aye, square headed. That’s a funny thing about a Lancashire loom, nearly all the nuts on a Lancashire loom are square nuts aren’t they?

R- Oh aye. Well, they all are square. Aye.

Yes. Well they are, they are all square. And, they are a different size than any other sort of nut.

R- Aye. Well, they made special keys for them didn’t they?

Yes, aye. Your keys, them tackler’s keys.

R- Them. Now then, yes.

Yes, because they are a different size than anything else.

R- Oh aye, they are.

They are one on their own. In fact that’s probably one of the oldest sizes, nut sizes and types, and thread types that’s in use today.

R- Aye, I bet they are.



And then on 56 you’re just tightening the studs up, aren’t you, from the look of it, you can’t just see your hand, but it just looks to me as if you were tightening studs up on that gear wheel, on the end of the countershaft.

R- Aye, that’s what I were doing.

Aye, Is it normally as mucky as that under the loom, when you’re, you know, when you are on, when you are doing it? Now that loom looks fairly mucky underneath.

R- Well . It is mucky, it is mucky, normally, say fifty fifty, now some, a good weaver’d sweep that muck away. Well, I don’t know who this weaver is but she is a sloppy bugger. See, I’ve no need to work in the muck.

Well, it were that lass that followed Elva.

R- Oh, sometimes I’ll sweep it.

Yes. aye. But you are not supposed to.

R- No, oh no. It’s not my job, it’s not the weaver’s job either to sweep. But some weavers do. In fact some weavers want that loom clean, they sweep the lot, not just the floor and round about. That Mira you know, she sweeps her looms every time she downs a warp, makes a good job of it, and I haven’t, to go near until she is ready. And it’s better, it’s better (550) all round. They seem to weave better, clean looms.

Oh they will do, they will do. Aye. Now then, 57, we have Mr Frederick Inman, tackler.



R- Oh aye. Aye, that’s right, aye.

Now then, this was at dinner time this, the mill was stopped. Now you tell me what Fred’s doing on number 57.

R- Well, he’s mounting a belt. Usually it’s done when the loom’s running, when the mill’s running, but Fred’s lucky there, in a way so there is no danger.

Yes. So what’s he actually doing.

R- Well, this belt that you can see dangling about, must have broken just before break time, and he’s mended it, and he is mounting it before the mill starts again.

So he is just flicking it there so that it flies onto the drum on the shaft, isn’t he?

R- That’s it, that’s it, aye.

And then when it’s go, when he’s got it on to the drum on the shaft, next picture, 58, he is down on his knees in the usual attitude of prayer, and he is just sliding that belt on to the fast and loose pulley.



R- That’s it. Well, it’s going on to the loose pulley.

Oh, well on to the loose pulley, aye. But with the fast and loose… Now, that’s a good picture of the fast and loose pulley. What do you call that fork that the belt goes through? Well, is it just called fork?

R- Well, no, belt guide, if you want to be technical.
(25 Min)

Aye ... That’s it. Well, we want the right names. And that’s the actual fork that moves that belt backwards and forwards either on to the loose pulley when the loom’s stopped, or on to the fast pulley when it’s running isn’t it.

R- That’s right.

And the loose pulley is just loose on the shaft, so it just whizzes round but the fast pulley is fastened on with the set screws, so that when the belt slides on to that, it starts to drive the loom. Yes. And then number 59 is a very sad picture. [This picture and the ones which follow are in the Bancroft folio of Loomsweeper pictures]



R- Yes, it is.

Now, you tell me about that.

R- Well, I don’t know yet. What could you call that? Graveyard? Aye, it’d be a graveyard.

Derelict. Those are those looms, just the next to the back set in the eight side.

R- They’ve been stopped a long while them. Got covered with muck, and they’ll never run again, well, I don’t think they will.
It’s like snow isn’t it?

R- Ready for the melting pot. Aye, it just looks like there has been a snow storm, it is a sad picture that you know.

Oh it is, that’s why it’s in, aye, it’s .. I like that picture. It’s like I say, I like it as a picture. I think well, that’s the end of the industry isn’t it?
(600)

R- Bloody hell. Oh it is. It is the end of the industry.

Aye. It’s the end of the industry Ernie. Disused looms, mucky looms.

R- Aye. I’ll tell you what …

And that’s what all the looms’ would look like in the shed if it wasn’t for men like Paraffin Jack Grayson. [Jack Grayson was the loomsweeper at the time.]

R- That’s him Paraffin Jack.

Now on tape 60, picture number 60, you tell me about Jack and what he is doing.



R- Well, I don’t know, Paraffin Jack, he is a loomsweeper. He is sweeping the muck off the looms and if he does his job right he’ll sweep the muck off the looms, oil them and tidy up all round.

Now, does he do that when the loom’s stopped?

R - Part of it when the loom’s stopped, and part of it when the loom’s running. Because a moving wheel is easier to sweep that one that’s stood still isn’t it? All you do is just put your brush on…

Yes. And he just uses what we call a loom brush, but what the manufacturers call a banister brush, don’t they? They call them a banister brush. But that’s the only tool he uses isn’t it, a brush?

R- Oh aye, and the oil can.

Aye, and the oil can, aye, of course. But how important are the loomsweepers in the mill.

R- Oh, I think they are very important but that job is considered to be the lowest job in the mill for some reason.

Jim and me were just saying the other day. Well, in fact, Jim said before ever they came with the list, you know, he said I’ll tell you, he said - we were talking about loomsweepers - He said “When they come with the list of redundancies- he said - everybody in this shop will be classified - he said either an skilled or unskilled.”

R- Aye.

And he said “Loomsweepers’ll be classed an unskilled” And I didn’t agree with it.

R- I don’t agree with it.

Why not?

R - Well, just imagine if them looms never got oiled, they wouldn’t last, they wouldn’t last above a few weeks you’d get bearings running hot and fires.

Yes. And as well as that, I mean, anybody who has ever tried to sweep a loom… I’ve always said, I mean like even Jack, he is a bit of a character. Nobody’d call him they the most intelligent of people in the mill to put it mildly, but he could sweep five looms while I was sweeping one.

R - Oh yes, there’s method. I mean, I fancy they could fix a computer up to do it, as long as Jack did it first. Couldn’t they?

Aye. That’s it. Aye.
(650)

R- Oh aye, there’s a method. I think I’m a good sweeper.

Aye. Yes, well you used to be a sweeper didn’t you?

R - Oh, years gone by, aye.

Aye. Right, 61.



R- What you try and do is make every movement work you see. Don’t waste movements.

Aye. Don’t be waving the brush around unless it’s actually brushing sommat. Now, 61 …

R- Aye. There’s Paraffin again.

He is in the blood and the mud and the beer.

R- You see, he’d never been in a mill up to a few weeks before them pictures were taken.

Hadn’t he?

R- No, he were a bit of a bloody menace, really, he caused me some work.

In what way, tell me.

R- Well. I told you how you set looms up with bands a certain length and then you’re right then. Sometimes you have a struggle to get them the right length, because these looms, they aren’t level by any means. So you have a long band and a short band, and one a bit short and one a bit longer, and things like that.

Do you mean top bands? Yes?

R- Top bands, aye. Well, this fellow went to a twill loom and cut all the bloody bands off, he thought bands are cut off every time to get the healds out, so as he could sweep the loom. Eh, I had a hell of a bloody strugg1e with that one. Anyway I told him, I said “Hey Jack, I wish you’d be more careful with your knife!”


62

Now on that picture, 62, that’s a weaver’s alley, obviously. It’s looking up the alley. Cloth rollers on the floor, cloth coming off. And you can see the floor here, it’s the old flag floor and it’s soaked in oil and …

R- Yes, humps and hollows… Aye.

Humps and hollows. And Jack here, to do his job, has got to get down on the floor the same as you have to do, to do your job. Aye.

R- Aye. That’s right. Aye, we spend a lot of time on the floor, and it’s a bloody cold floor and all in winter. No wonder we are full of rheumatism and…

Aye, many a time loomsweepers carry a piece of carpet round with them, or sommat like that to…

R- Aye, oh aye. Or a board to sit on. But that’s the worst floor in any mill in the world, I dare bet on it.

What, ours?

R-Ours, aye.

I think you could very easily be right. Yes.

R- I think I’m right, I've never come across one as bad. Well, just imagine, when did this mill start?

1920.

R- 1920, and there's never been above a few shillings spent on that floor and if there were a bloody hole got that big somebody were falling in it, they'd fill it with cement. There is odd places about that's been patched up…

And then there was the big improvement once. I think George got some second hand ...

R- Yes, grave stones.

No, George got some second hand tarmac didn't he?

R- Aye. Aye, he did,

He put tarmac all round the shop at tremendous expense. (700)

R- No wonder the bloody shop's shutting, believe me, I'm not surprised.

Aye. 63. Paraffin Jack again, but now he is under, he has insinuated himself into the loom.



R- Aye. Now he’s sweeping under. When I were learning to [weave], I remember I used to get two pennies for sweeping under, sweeping under four looms, two pennies when I were learning, you know? Do it for the weaver, there weren’t, there weren't official sweepers in them days, the poor bloody weavers did it.

64. You can, that gives you a good idea of the floor doesn't it? But he’s on the beam side here, obviously.

R- Can you see Jack's arm there? His elbow?

Yes.

R- He got blown up in the war and he can't straighten his army. It’s permanently bent and he can only like, so he can only like bend it so far, and no further.

Aye? Oh, I didn't know that, I never noticed. But look at the state of them flags they … Eh, I don't know.

R- It isn't… I mean, bloody society's all wrong, there is an ex soldier, fought for King and country, or Queen and country, and he's grovelling about in the bloody muck for a pittance.

Aye, what do loom sweepers get?

R- Next to nothing ... it’s about £35, no more.

In this day and age. Yes.

R- In this day and age! Bloody twisters.

Aye. Now, well, there we are. We’ve, that's got through the weaving pictures and the loom sweeper. It don't matter about there being a bit of a gap on that tape there. It's a bit of a bitty tape is this one anyway, (35 Min) First, you know, we are getting, we are getting to the far end you and me. We’ll have another one to do on the actual, on the gaiting, gaiting the loom when I've printed them pictures. We'll have another one to do where we actually gets get some cloth weaving, get the shuttle going and get some cloth weaving. I'll get all my printing done. One thing I wanted to ask you, I said we’d have a tape all about sex and shit, but I didn't actually mean that. When you were young, nowadays everybody accepts the fact that if you are going to a lavatory anywhere there is a roll of toilet paper. When did you first start using toilet paper regular? (750

R- Well, I reckon it must have been when I went in the army ... 1939.

Yes. So from 1916 to 1939, that's 23 years the Robert’s posterior never saw…

R - Toilet paper.

Izal toilet paper, is what were you using? [San Izal was a cheap brand of medicated toilet paper. It was impregnated with San Izal disinfectant, a powerful phenolic germicide.]

R- Well, I used, and not just me, there were everybody on the same bloody lark. It were newspapers cut into squares and either poked onto a nail, or a piece of string put through and hung on a nail.

Aye, and now it's, what is it, it's about four bob for a toilet roll, isn’t it?

R- Oh, you would never see that now. I've never seen it for years and years since, well I've never seen it since society were re-organised. That's one thing that came out of the last war. I don't know why it happened but it happened for some reason or other.

What happened?

R- Standard of living started getting better for the workers, didn't you find it? But the only thing that's, well you are not old enough to know about it but…

I'm sure you're right. I'm sure you're right,

R- And it got better and better and better. And then they aren't bloody satisfied, I mean Ford are on strike now, and they earn good wages.

There is one other thing, I’m interested in what you say about that sort of thing, don't think I'm not, but there is one other thing that I wanted to know as well. Now, if, just before you went into the army, you're about 22?

R- 23 about.

Yes, but I mean, I'm talking about, you know, like just before you went into the army. You were in your twenties, early twenties …

R- Working, working regular?

Yes, working regular... And it's Saturday night and you. are going out, Saturday night; and you think you've got a fair chance.

R- Aye, Yes. You mean all dolled up. Yes.

You have got a chance. Yes, you are all dolled up, you are going to meet somebody and you've spent a week end or two with her and you think "Yes, Roberts, this might be your lucky night."

R- Aye, we'll try her tonight.

That's it. Now then, if, having made that decision, you've thought that you had a fair chance, what precautions would you take. I mean because obviously you don't want to go out with that lass and finish up bairning her.

R- No, you're, you're quite right Stanley.

Yes. Now, I am interested to know what, just before the war, what did your mind fly to. You know? I mean what was the first line of defence against such an occurrence?

R- Well, if you could pluck up your courage, and you'd got the money, you'd go into the chemist and get some french letters

Yes. Into the chemist?

R- Aye.

Was there anywhere else?

R- Well, we used to go in Wellock’s. It were the herbalists, and it were a man. And you'd hang about the shop doors see? Waiting to see that there was nobody in the shop, then you'd dash in and say "A tube of toothpaste.” if a woman walked in behind, yon know. Everything were…like… (800)

No, I know the feeling well. I know the feeling well.

R- Aye, but it were them green things were Wellock’s [Rendell’s], if you went in and winked he knew what you wanted. And then, as it progressed this court-ship, and you used to get into a nice warm places we used to get Rendell’s pessaries if you'd got any bloody sense at all. Like my brother'd come home, he got his lass in the family way. But fortunately I never did that ‘cause I had my bloody head screwed on the right way, I must have had. Anyway, you got these Rendell’s. And I went in the shop one time, and that wore like a treat Rendell’s, and I says to him ... oh I went in, my stomach were out of order, it was during the week so I asked him for some Rennies and I saw him fumbling about under the counter, making a nice little round paper parcel with this packet you know, and he threw it on the top. I think they wore 2/9 or 2/6, something like that, so he asked me for this 2/6. I says “2/6 for bloody Rennies?” Oh he said, I thought you wanted Rendell’s, so we sorted that job out and I finished up with my Rennies.

Oh, you didn't take the Rendell’s?

R- Oh, I hadn't enough money, it must have been.

Oh I see. And who were making french letters then, can you remember who they were? Who was making them.

R- Oh, I think they were Durex. I think so, I mean you can't move now without seeing machines in toilets, and every pub has a machine and you walk in the chemist and there is a big selection, all colours, you can even get them with roses on! (40 min)

That's it, aye.

R- It's a permissive society all right now.

Aye. Well, it's better that ways Ernie..

R- Oh, much better, much better.

It's better.

R- I mean, why should you sneak in the shop and ...

I mean

R- It isn't a crime.

No, I mean, at one time - you tell me if I'm wrong, but at one time I should think there were more contraceptives bought in barber’s shops than there were in chemists, weren't there? Don’t you think that’s possible like? Didn't barbers sell them?

R- Oh no. Ah, barber’s sell them now. Well, I don't remember of a barber selling them when I were a lad.

Is that right?

R- I mean, why didn’t we go and buy them there? Instead of at Wellock s.

Did you go to the barber's then Ernie?

R- Oh aye. You used to get a contract, 1/6 a month. go every week, because it were all back and sides cut short you know.

Is that right?

R- Aye, 1/6 a mouth we used to pay.

So. Instead of going to the barber, like going to the barber's and paying him, you'd give, you'd pay 1/6 a month and more or less go and have your hair cut when you want it.

R- Oh, every week you’d have it cut. Once a week. Kept it all bare at the back you know.

Aye ... that's it

R- … and a nice quiff on the top.

Well, some of us have us hair cut like that, only we go a bit longer in between happen. Aye..

R- That’s right.

Aye. No, I was in .... and, I find that very interesting, because you see, that's the sort thing that people don’t ask. You know, it’s not nice is it? You know…
(850) to start asking about french letters. Well, those are some of the most bloody important things there is. How do you avoid bairning the lass? There is nothing much more important than that is there?

R- Oh, in them days it were a disaster you know.

Yes. I tell. you what Fred were telling me last night about a lass in Earby that… Well, actually, it was his cousin, and this lad, he’d evidently been out with her and he went round shooting his mouth off afterwards, about what had happened. And this lasses mother took her to the doctor’s, got a certificate to say that penetration hadn’t taken place and made this fellow put a public apology in the paper for what he’d said..

R- She did right! I mean, you don’t go round bragging about messing with bloody lasses do you? Well, I never did.

Oh no. No, but there you are.

R- No, I have heard blokes, even married men, and I think it's - I'm no prude, and I've a mind as broad as anybody, but I draw the line somewhere. And I like a dirty tale, but I would never talk like some of the silly buggers talk.

Don't you think there is perhaps a lot of truth in the old saying that, you know, not really an old saying, but I’ve always rather tended to the view that people that do all the talking about it'll happen be the ones who aren't just performing as they ought to be

R- It's possible, it's possible ...

The fellows that's, the fellows that's doing the damage are the quiet ones that never say anything.

R- Aye, that's true.

Aye. No, I think myself that’s right Ernie.

R- But this permissive society they talk about today, it's exactly the same today as it were then when I were a lad, only not as blatant. I mean, they are a bit hard faced and cheeky with it today. But the same things were going on, but more discreet; exactly the same things.


SCG/06 October 2002
7278 words.




LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AC/15

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON OCTOBER 6TH 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS ERNIE ROBERTS, TACKLER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.

R- … They were, they were having a birthday party. And, Betty were.. it were Betty's birthday party and she was serving all her friends round the table and half way round the table she farted. So she went, to relieve her embarrassment and she said to her brother "Come in here Tommy” So he went in the kitchen and she said "If you'll go and tell them it were you that let that fart, I’ll give you a shilling." He, says "All right." So he came back into the room and he says "Ladies and gentlemen, that fart that our Betty let were mine." I can see my mother's eyes, she used to laugh like buggery when she used to tell that tale, it must have tickled her first ...

As you'll probably gather, we've started another tape, I just caught Ernie unawares there and switched the tape on so that we could catch that joke. This is actually tape 78/AC/16, recorded on 6th October 1978 in the engine house at Bancroft Shed. The informant is Ernie Whittaker, I beg your pardon Ernie Roberts, I’ll get it right now ...

R- You'd better scrub that bloody tape ...

No.

R - Is that whisky?

No, no. Ernie Roberts tackler and the interviewer is Stanley Graham. Ignore any comments that Ernie makes about whisky. What Ernie and I are going to do tonight is go through the last pictures in the sequence on gaiting a loom. Now, it's important to realise that these pictures were taken out of sequence but with the same type of warp that the first pictures were done on. Now, with them being out of sequence they have had to be inserted in the file in the Tacklers section of the Bancroft folio between two pictures, 51 and 52, so we've numbered them as it were, decimally. And the first picture that we are going to look at will be 510 the next 511 and so on until we get to the end of them. And then, anybody following the folio right through will come on to picture number 529 which gets us into the empty looms. So, what we are going to do now is run through the pictures at the end of the actual gaiting sequence on the Lancashire loom. Right. Picture 510. Now then, you tell me what you're (100) doing on here Ernie.



R - Well, I've got to the stage now, I'm tightening the threads up, tucking them in with my ruler - that's a tackler's ruler – foot, good for scratching backs or tucking ends in, between the sand roller and wood cloth roller. You've got to have them tight, it's essential that you keep all them threads in even tensions or else you are in trouble. So I'm being very careful.

Yes. Now then. One bit of explanation before we go any further. When you say threads, you mean this web of warp that we can see coming over the top of the loom, and over the breast beam.

R- That' s right.

That's right, Now then, when you talk about the sand roller, that's the first roller underneath the breast beam. I've always understood that it's called the sand roller because at one time it’d probably be covered with sand paper.

R– Aye, that’s true. Sometimes it is now ...

Ah, go on, tell me about that now.

R- If you are weaving very fine, flimsy cloth. You sees if you had perforated tin on it, it'd pluck it. (150)

So, our sand rollers are actually covered with perforated tin, just like a nutmeg graters in't it?

R- Yes. That’s right. Just exactly the same. And you can get different gauges for, like, fierceness you know. Very strong for very strong cloths so that it'll take the cloth away as is being woven.

So. that roller that's being driven there, that has the, or let's put it a different way. The sand roller, which has got the material on the surface to make it rough ... And I think I'm right in saying that we have about, ah there's a roll lay over there, that rubber stuff.

R- That's it.

That's used sometimes, in't it, on that roller?

R- Yes, it is.

Now, that roller is used, it's driven is that roller, and that roller is the one that actually drags the warp through the looms isn't it?

R - That's right. Aye. it's like worked from the side, from the taking up motion.

Yes. So that when you alter a pick wheel, or a motion wheel on the end, to alter the pick, you are actually altering the drive to that sand roller. (5 min)

R- That's right.

So the sand roller is really the thing which governs the speed at which that warp moves through the loom.

R- That's true, aye.

Yes, aye, that's right. Yes, I think we'll go, yes we'll go on to 511. Now then, you tell me what you are doing there.



R- Well, I’ve tucked all the ends in and I'm threading… I've stretched a piece of beating across the front and round the back of the sand roller bush and I shall pull that tight so that it keeps these ends tight when (200) I'm winding it on to the sand roller. And that'll keep them tight all the way.

Yes. So … Yes, so turn over to the next picture because I think that this one is… Ah, no, we'll go back, we'll go back to 511. So, when you've tightened that piece of beating… now beating is a piece of ... it's a length of thread off the tapes in't it?

R- Aye, it's exactly the same as any other kind of yarn in a mill ...

Yes. Yes, but that's usually where you get it from isn't it?

R- Only it has…Aye, that particular piece hasn't been through the raddle, like a comb, to split it.

Aye, that's it. Yes, yes, that's it.

So it's strong, it's a lot of ends sized together and it's strong.

Yes. That’s it. Now, so actually it could be said we have got a picture missing here. What you do when you've tied that on, you turn that sand roller.

R- Yes.

So that it draws these ends through the loom. So that you get a good wrap on to your sand roller.

R- That’s right.

So that when you start the loom up to start weaving, when you have finished the rest of gaiting, you have got a positive pull on it. Because otherwise it wouldn't grip those ends they'd probably just fly off wouldn't they.

R- No…Oh aye. Well if it flew off then it's ... like I say, trouble.

Yes. Right. 512 Ernie..



R- 512 ...

Now then. (250)

R- Oh, I've got my warp… all my warp ends, all the threads are tight on to the sand roller. Now, I'm putting the slay cap on, putting the reed inside the slay cap. And that slots into the top.

You have lifted the reed up through the warp and you are actually sliding the slay cap, or hand shelf as you call it, on to the reed.

R- That's right.

And then, when you've slid it on, it goes on the two brackets that we can see in front of you at either side. One nearest to you, near the shuttle…

R- Yes, they call them swords. Right hand and left hand swords.

Yes. And then in picture 513 you are actually tightening the nuts up on each end.



R - That's it.

... which hold the hand shelf on to the reed.

R- That’s it.

Yes. Tell me something, that's a fairly good picture 513, it gives a fairly good view of the leathers on the shuttle box at this end of the loom. Tell me something about the leathers and the names of those leathers. Now, just to start you off, the very corner of those leathers, where they're coming in at the front of the picture is on the end of the picking stick isn't it? Yes?

R- That's it. Aye.

Now, you follow them leathers down and tell me what the names are.

R- Aye. Well, the long leather is called the picking band.

Yes, and that's got two holes in the bottom of it, is that useful?

R – No, well, aye, there's usually four holes, there's two you can see there and two you can't see. Well, you can see three really but that long leather, picking band, goes through the short leather which goes round (300) the picker. And to fasten that long leather on the end of the picking stick there's a bonnet, we make all them. And there's a wood peg goes through to hold it in.

The wood peg goes through the bottom to hold the…

R- Aye, you can just see it on the corner there. The wood peg goes through the long leather.

To hold it, stopping it slipping back through the picking band.

R- That's it.

Yes. What's the picker made of Ernie?

R - They are made of leather. Well, for a Lancashire loom, this old fashioned loom, they've always been made of leather, but there is a new trend now for plastics. We’ve tried some but they are no good.

[The leather pickers we used at Bancroft are the old-fashioned ones which were made out of water buffalo hide.]

What's, what's the disadvantage?

R – Well, trouble. I can't explain it any other way. You get stitching and shuttles flying out and even broken shuttles.

They'll break. a shuttle?

R- Oh, aye. Aye, they can break a shuttle. Aye they will, they are not successful. (10 Min)

Now, tell me, it doesn't show up too clearly on this picture, but there is another leather - you can see the end of it, hung out, here…

R- That's it.

There is another leather runs right the way along the front of the slay to the box at the other side. Now, what's that one called?

R- That's a check strap. It acts like brake on the shuttle. And they have never been able to find a substitute for that strap. Whoever built these looms originally, they must have had some bloody headaches. There's never been a better method of checking the shuttle than that check strap. And that, in turn, goes through a check ends here and that's fastened with a buckles on to the check strap you see? (350)

Yes. You can just see the metal shining. Yes.

R - And it's, well it's ...

Yes. And so the check strap runs from what we call the buffers, doesn’t it? Once they'd ...

R- No, at this end here, see, there is a bow leather. All these leathers are married each one needs the other. None of, if any of these leathers break, then the job's a baddun. If you get that buckle flying out, breaking, sometimes they do, all that working's finished.

When the shuttle is at the other end. I mean, the shuttle now is in the box, and obviously the loom isn't running but when the shuttle hits the other end it hits the picker ...

R- That's right.

And as it drives the picker back, it hits the buffers doesn't it, buffer leathers. Is that what you call them?

R- No, buffer leathers….

Oh, the buffer leathers are at the front aren't they.

R- They’re fastened on to the spindle. That's really a, a picker saver. You see if you had that picker picking up against the metal stud, it wouldn't last no time. But picking against leather, well it lengthens its life.

Yes, well now tell me, I know that when the shuttle hits the other end, it hits the picker first, drives the picker up to the end of the box and as the picker is getting to the end of the box, it's slowed down, or braked or arrested, or whatever you like to say, because it starts dragging on that check strap under the slay doesn't it?

R- That's right. That's true, but on the back of this box, where the shuttle's coming in, there's what they call a swell spring. That’s really the first brake and the check strap is like the final brake. I mean, when you think about that shuttle travelling at 200 picks a (400) minute…

It's going in't it!

R- Aye, it's travelling a bit.

Oh, it's like a bullet. Yes. And that picture that we are looking at, 513, it gives you a very good idea of the way the healds are hooked on to the roller at the front.

R- That's right, they call that a roller top.

Yes. Now, above that roller top, this loom - we are not using it for this warp but it has a spring top on that hasn't it?

R- That's right.

And just tell me something about that spring top if you can.

R- Well, as this loom’s set up on a roller top it is just weaving plain cloth. But, if you put a different tappet underneath a loom and more lamb rods and more staves and this spring top hooked up, it’ll lift each stave individually, up to six staves, so you can weave, well you can weave all sorts of different weaves.

Yes. So in other words, that spring top, these things that we can see at the end that are all covered with dawn and God knows what, those are actually leather straps.

R- That's right.

And if they were hooked on to the healds, instead of the short leather straps off the roller top that we have for this warp, when one of those straps is dragged down, it pulls on a spring - you can just see the end of the edge of the springs at the top - so that as the tappet pulls it down, when the tappet leaves go of it, that leather and that spring will pull the heald back up.

R- That's it.

And you can have up to six healds ... One, two, three, four, five, that's it, six.

R- That's it. Yes, you have got the idea now.

Aye. And it also has a tray underneath it which is very handy for the weavers because they put all sorts on don't they?

R- Aye, they do. But really it is to catch oil.

Aye, that's it, aye to catch oil off the ...

R- like, that’s what it is, it is an oil tray.

I've never known, I've never realised that was what it was for. That's something that we really ought to point out Ernie, that ... tell me about oil on a loom. You know, about not getting it on to the cloth.

R- Well it can be a menace, there’s lots of, well, it's (450)(15 Min) never been solved that problem, black oil weaving in, little specks. They just can't find how to do away with it, they tried all sorts.

Where does the oil come from, mainly?

R- Well, every time, before a session starts, the same as one o'clock here say, the weaver will have oiled that spindle. And it builds up in the studs and the plug and round the buffer leather and occasionally there is a little speck will escape and fly in. And you can strip that box down - say you are having trouble with a loom chucking bits of black oil in - you'll strip the box down, take the plate off, box back, studs, all the lot, polishing everything up and you'll still get it.

There's something there that, here again I realise, you see, the more we do, the more pictures we need. I haven't got a picture of a feather oiler. Just explain what a feather oiler is and the way a weaver uses it.

R- Well, it's just a hen feather or a goose feather or any kind of a feather. And once of a day, years ago, there used to be a little tin screwed on to the end of the loom. And, I don't know whether somebody filled them up with special oil, spindle oil, and then the weaver used to just get this feather and oil up.

So the oiling was done with a feather.

R - That's right.

You just pulled the feather out, soaked with oil, and touched it on to the parts that needed oiling.

R- Aye. Well now, just think about a feather, it costs nothing, does it? Free.

Aye. Aye cheaper than oil cans Ernie.

R- Aye. Well you couldn't oil that with the oil can really. You need just a smear.

Yes that's it. Aye. Aye, so instead of…

R- I've known weavers using an old tooth brush. But a feather's, you know, it must be original, feather. (500)

Yes. I notice a lot of them these days have, they'll have a tin like a dried milk tin at the end

R- That's it.

… and then with a hole punched in the lid. And the feather’s stuck through that. Aye.

R- That's it.

But we still have some feather oilers on the looms.

R- Oh plenty. Plenty. Brand new. Aye we have.

Yes. We’ll have to be in to them before the scrap fellows. Aye.

R- Oh aye.

Aye it's right, let's see. Anything more about that picture? Obviously you've got the weaver in the alley with you, looking serious.

R- Oh lovely. Yes. Now ... least said, soonest mended.

Very good. One other thing that's very clear on that picture, the hand shelf - that's the wooden part that you are holding with your left hand while you tighten the nuts up with your right - it's very highly polished on the top.

R- Ah well, that’s like with use; but if you put a new one in it’d be polished. But with use, they get polished. You know, a weaver, when they're weaving they put their hand on there when the loom's running and in fact at one time they used to put some weight on and try to speed it up a bit. Make another farthing.

Is that right?

R- Oh aye, aye it's right.

Aye, shove the loom on. And the shuttle guard stands out well on there doesn't it?

R- Oh aye, well, aye. Like everything else, obsolete, they have never been able to improve on that, either. They've tried all sorts of patents because I mean, they don't call that a flying shuttle for nothing. Once it leaves that box it's out of control.

Yes. Aye, it's a bullet.

R - And….yes.

Have you, all the time you've been tackling and weaving Ernie, have you ever seen a bad accident with a shuttle?

R- No, I haven’t, but there has been accidents. There's one or two with one eye. I’ve never seen a bad accident; I've been thumped a time myself. One time it fetched blood, just catched me on the cheek bone But you see, this shuttle guard keeps that shuttle down. That's the idea of it; it doesn’t stop it coming out, but it’s like deflected down and ... (550)(20 Min) it's factory law and has been for generations I suppose, that there has to be a shuttle guard on there.

Because otherwise it’d be just like a bullet flying through the shed.

R- Oh aye, it would, aye.

Aye. Whereas, if that guard's on, if it does start to fly out, at least there is a good chance it'll hit something else on its way out and slow it down a bit.

R- That’s the idea.

Aye. Very good. Now then …


514

R- Now, I've done all my …

514? And we are now, what was it you said when you were on about the centre fork grates? Spent more time on your back than a prostitute?

R- Oh aye. Aye, I did, aye. I said "It's time I were leaving here.” and I left.

Now, let’s, tell us what you are doing there. First of all, where are you?

R- Well, I'm under the loom.

So, in other words you are down on the floor.

R- I've, done most of my work up above, so I’ve got down on the floor now and I'm leaning under the loom, fastening the heald bands to what they call the lamb rods. So I’m like making a connection between top and bottom. All the work what's done is done down here, the tappets are making the cloth really.

So, the levers that are actually controlling the lamb rods are coming through that grating we can see in the bottom of the loom.

R- That's it.

We can see the levers going back to the cogs underneath there, anyway, so…

R- Aye. So this lamb wire is fastened to two of these and the tappet as well. And the tappet, like, there is one leaf bigger than the other; that makes, that evens the job up up above, makes the shed even. I mean, you need a bigger shape, a bigger leaf to make the shed a bit bigger from the back.

Yes. No, I'm with you. So, let’s see, so you're… Now, the (600) threads, the bands, at the top that hold the heald, the heald bands at the top. If you can, you try and keep them intact, those are always hung on the loom aren't they?

R- Oh aye.

Because they are the right length for the loom and …

R- That’s it.

You don't like to bother with them, you don’t like to adjust them. But these at the bottom are the ones that you have to adjust with a running knot aren't they, to give you the right tension on them.

R- Aye. Well, I suppose so, in a way. But to get that band on that lamb rod, it's to be, that's to be something free you know? And once you get the band on the lamb rod you shove this running knot and tighten it up. It's a slip knot.

Yes. So once you have tied it up on there, you tie it so it can't slip back.

R- That’s right.

And then, that means that those bands at the bottom and the ones at the top and all are fairly taut. The heald's taut isn't it? It's not flapping about.

R- Oh aye. That's right, you don't want a lot of play because it's like a continuity up, and, you know, from up above to down below.

Yes. That's it, aye. Right.

R- So I've tied that up.

Yes. Now then, 515.



R- Aye, we are making a bit of headway. Now here, I’m putting the slay, the lease rods in.

Yes. That'll be ‘lease’, the same as the other won't it? Aye, the same as that other lease that we were talking about. Now you've just got one in there, but how many of those rods are there?

R- That’s right, there's two rods, this is the back rod, and the first and third end goes under that rod.

Under it.

R- Under it aye.

Yes. Now tell me if I’m wrong. When you've put that one in, when you've put the other one in, do you alter the position of those healds before you put the other one in? Tell me about that.

R – Yes, yes. Well, you can see, I've pulled first and third and put my back rod in. Now, next operation is to pull up …

Yes. Now, just one second before you go on. Pulling up the first and the third rods has, in effect, formed the shed. You've made the shed.

R- Aye. That's right.

And, well, actually, from the look of that, from the way those threads are going there, you are just putting the other rod in aren't you, because that shed is crossed on that one. (650)(25 Min)

R- That's it. You are right, you are right on me.

Yes. If you look at this one carefully, this is for the benefit of anybody listening to the tape - if you look very carefully at the shed, that’s the gap between the two different sets of threads which are going through the healds, you'll see that the rod that we can see from this end of the loom is actually trapped now by ....

R- That's it, aye.

… the threads. So that means that Ernie’s put that rod in and then he's altered the shed and what we are actually seeing him do is sliding the other rod in, the front one now, through the shed that he's made. That’s it.

R- That's it. Yes, you can see, it's second and last up and the big rod in. So, second and last up, that leaves first and third down, and when I put the big rod in, that first and third end is under the big rod. Now I'm putting the little rod in, with first and third up, you can see that the first and third's under the big rod.

That's it, yes.

R- So when I put this little rod in, second and last will be under the front rod.

That's its yes.

R- And that's, well, for the benefit of everybody concerned. Say, when they've any ends broken, they just fiddle, they find out which rod they go under and always put them back in that position.

Yes. Now, let's just set this straight while we are on about it. Those rods aren't just pushed in and left there.

R-Oh no.

You tie those rods ...

R- That’s right.

…up at the end so that they can't move don't you.

R- that they can't ... aye, that's it. If they aren't tight, they slide out sideways. And then that's trouble again. They won't weave without rods.

Yes, I’m just trying to see if there is anything else of vital importance.

R- Well, that’s important, I’ve me left foot on it.

Aye, that's it. I meant to ask you about that, yes. Tell me about that lump of waste, that lump of beating on the floor.

R- Well, that's what, well, I call that the pile preventer! See? You never, one of the unwritten laws is "Never get down on a cold stone floor without some protection." And that, you carry that in your back pocket so that, I mean, we spend a lot of time down there.

So, you either kneel on it or…or put your left buttock on it.

That's it. It's vital.

That's it. Now, the loomsweepers generally carry around either a piece of board, or an old piece of carpet don't they?

R – Aye, they do, they do that.

If they are right hard up, a piece of a carton out of the shed. Anything to put something between them and the floor.

R- That's it. Because usually they're damp you know?

And the reason ... Yes, that's it. I was just going to say, shed floors are damp because sheds are nearly always built into hill sides.

R- Oh certainly.

... for that reason. Because the humid atmosphere makes for easier weaving.

R - That's it. And then it helps to, it helps the manufacturer. You can buy cheap yarn and if it weaves….
[Ernie is making a very important point here about the old adage that sheds were damp ‘because it weaves better’. This is true, but simplistic, the big advantage is that the more ideal the humidity is, the shorter staple yarn that can be used. This yarn is cheaper to buy and so there is more profit. The sort of contracts we worked on at Bancroft {which were standard contracts} did not stipulate the staple length, simply the type and general quality. If the cloth could be woven to specification with a short staple yarn it was a big advantage. The ability to make decisions about this at the ordering stage for materials was an essential skill and one which I have never seen highlighted in descriptions of the process].

Aye, aye there is that way of looking at it Ernie. Yes.

R - But all the mills are built in what you might call swampy areas. Where there is plenty of water and drips you know?

Now then, you can go to town here Ernie; 516.



R- Ah well, we are getting towards the end of that operation now. This is the last operation, putting the temple caps on to hold this yarn and eventually cloth.

Yes. Now, there is one thing I noticed when I was printing this picture Ernie. I don't think we can see it on this one, but these temple rollers in this loom weren't the ones with the brass discs in and the spikes, they were they were wooden ones.

R - Oh no? ... Aye, a wooden roller with metal pins in. Aye.

Yes.

R - Oh, there is hundreds of types of temples.

Yes. Do you use different temples for different cloths?

R- Oh yes. You'll use fierce temples for strong cloth, and what's the opposite to fierce?

Gentle?

R- Gentle temples for, like, gentle cloth.

Yes. So you'd, put me right if I'm wrong - you'd say that the temples that have the brass discs with the separate brass discs with the pins in, and different kinds of pins, those are fairly fierce are they?

R - Yes, they are.

And the gentle ones would be some, we have some in fact that are just covered with rubber haven't we? (750)(30 min)

R- Oh well, aye. Ah well, that's for weaving, well, gauze maybe. Very gentle cloths.

That's it. We don't use them here, do we?

R – Well, we have, we have done.

Aye, aye … I'm just looking at those healds there, they nearly look as if they are slated but they are not because they always come up alternately don't they, one and three and two and four.

R- Aye, but they are slated. If you notice they are in two pairs, back two and front.

Yes, aye. And the back ones are lower than front.

R- Ah but no, apart from that. Really, when this loom's at top centre them four staves are level. But apart from that, the two pairs are slated, just a bit, that's essential as well. If you had them level there’d be slack ends. See? It's all like on a slope isn't it when you make your shed.

That's right, yes.

R - Wonderful invention.

And on this picture as well, on 516, it gives a very good view of the fork and the fork grate doesn't it? Well, I say very good, you can't quite see the fork grate, it's behind the - what do you call that at the front of the box, behind the buffers ?

R - Behind the buffers?

Well, you know, the buffers.

R – Gate.

The gate of the box, aye, the shuttle box. Well, you can see the fork there plain enough.

R - Aye. That's right.

And the fork grate is in the slay just behind that gate as we are looking at it isn't it?

R - That's right, aye. And when the loom is running and weft… if weft's across the grate, it lifts this fork and this hammer's moving all the time in time ...

Yes, that's underneath the back of the fork. Yes.

R - Aye. Worked off a tumbler underneath. And if there is no weft there, the loom stops.

So, if there is no weft there the fork stays where it is ...

R- That's right.

The small hook at the back, which is just under your left hand, catches in the hammer, stops that going back and that trips the stop motion of the loom and stops the loom. Yes?

R - That's it. That's it. Pulls everything off.

Pulls everything off. Aye. Which I think you once told me is the correct way to stop a loom, isn’t it? Just to trap the weft fork and let it stop itself. Aye.

R- Oh aye. That's it. Aye.

When a loom stops Ernie, I've heard you talk about stopping in the wrong box. What do you mean by that? When a loom stops, should the shuttle always stop at a certain end of the loom? (800)

R- Aye, setting on end. If you can get them to stop that way. That's the way they should stop. But ... they mostly they do that, but sometimes I think the atmosphere must have some effect on belts

Aye, it definitely does.

R - ... and they run over and stop at the opposite side. So, if they do stop at the opposite side, it means the weaver has to turn the loom over to the proper side.

Yes, before she can set on.

R – Well, she could set on at the opposite side but it's not the best policy because ...

Why not?

R- Well, you could have disasters.

Aye. So, in other words, when a weaver’s setting a loom on she always tries to set it on with the shuttle in the box at the same end as the setting on lever.

R - That's right.

And that depends whether it's a right hand loom or a left hand loom. Yes.

R - Oh aye. Like that is now.

Yes. In other words, with the shuttle at the same end as the knocker on.

R - That's it.

That's it aye. And obviously, if she, if it stops in the box at the far end it means that she has to put the shuttle in at that end, knock it back and turn the loom over to trap that length of weft in before she can set it on.

R – Well, the shuttle'll already be in.

Yes, but that's what I mean, but when she's put a fresh shuttle in, she'll have to just knock it through herself won't she?

R- That's it. That's it.

Because otherwise you’ll have two threads in the same shed. Aye. Which would be a fault wouldn't it? Yes?

R- Oh aye.

And ... what do you think, just talking about that… When I'm talking about weaving faults on a loom I’m not, I don't mean faults that are caused by ends going down or weft breakages you know, on their own, or yarn breakages. What would you say was the biggest cause of other faults which could be traced to bad weaving you know? Now, I'm not, I'm putting this very badly but it's very difficult to put. Is there anything that a weaver can do, say in a hurry or not thinking about it, which can cause trouble.

R – Oh, she could put two shuttles in. That’d be a major disaster.

Tell me about that.

R- Well, just imagine if, when the loom stopped. It happens, you (35 min) are supposed to do it once in a lifetime, but sometimes it happens more than that. When the loom stops the first job is to take that shuttle out, empty shuttle. Put the full shuttle in, find the picks when you put your full shuttle in and start off again. But if she didn't take that empty shuttle out, there’d be a hell of a crash when she started the loom up. (850)

So, in other words, if the empty shuttle stopped in what we call the wrong end of the loom and she never took it out and put a full shuttle in at knocking on end and set it off, what's going to happen? Is that shuttle’s going to fly down and it’s just going to hit the other bloody shuttle and fly somewhere?

R- That's it .... It won't fly anywhere, the loom’ll come over and crash. Well more than likely you'd have hundreds of ends broken.

If you were very lucky… Just the odd time you can get away with it, but not very often. And if she didn't shove that shuttle up when she was starting the loom ... In other words when she put the shuttle into the box, push it right to the back of the box. Yes.

R- That's it. If she didn't do that, and started the loom up, it’d be a short pick see? So, before that shuttle could get into the opposite box out of the way, it’d be trapped. [In the shed.]

And the shed 'd change while the shuttle was on the way through. So that's going to be another ...

R- Another disaster.

... another disaster. Aye.

R - Oh, there's, there's lots of, there's hundreds of things can happen. Weaving uneven ...

What's the cause of that?

R- Well, tappets could slip, that'd make it weave uneven. Beam could be faulty, the same as a pike loose.

What's a pike?

R- Well, a pike. That's about two or three inches of iron that's sticking out of the [end of the] beam, at the back, like a …

Ah, that's like a spindle that sticks out of the beam, that's it yes. And those are tightened up with beam wedges aren't they. The collar's tightened up on to that with beam wedges isn't it and the pike's driven in. Aye.

R- That's it. Aye. Yes.

And ... (sorry Ernie)

R- No, just what I say, are you on about weaving faults?

Yes, any sort of faults.

R- Oh, there's hundreds of faults.

Well, we can do hundreds of tapes then.

R- Well, I don't know about hundreds of tapes! But there's so many things can go wrong. Sometimes the weaver’ll come and say "It's knocking off."

When she says it's knocking off, she means it's stopping by itself.

R – Aye, it is stopping without the weft breaking. So, there is a tumbler underneath working that hammer, that might have slipped. Or the check strap could be loose or the knocker on could be slipping off, it's lost its spring. Oh, what else? Fur in the shuttle might be worn out. You know, when the fur is in the shuttle it's controlling the weft and keeping it taut . Well, if that's gone, when the shuttle goes in the box the weft's slack and when that fork goes through the grate…
(900)

Aye, it doesn't trip it. Yes.

R- It's as good as nothing there see?

Yes, that's it, aye. How stitching Ernie? What do you say? Stitching?

R- Well, stitching ... do you know them running bands underneath? Sometimes, if you’re using a new band, it'll stretch so the shed comes off the board and instead of the shuttle running over the twist, it wriggles its way through just a few threads. Or short of pick, that could be making it stitch. Shuttles, they go like canoes in time and you have got to square them up. There's all, there's a lot of things, you'd be amazed how many things can go wrong. It takes years and years and years to like fathom most of them. So, you don't fathom them all, but most of them.

(40 min)

Aye. Well, we'll keep talking about that, but on 517 your right hand is a blur of motion Ernie.



We've started haven't we?

Yes.

R- We are in production now.

And that loom there - correct me if I'm wrong - is actually weaving.

R- It's making cloth. That's what it was made for, originally, and me.

Yes. Oh, is that what you were made for?

R- Aye. Well. Part of the cycle.

Yes. Well now, talking about cycles, this is a thing that puzzled me until I finally cracked it you see. Because I could never understand why the first piece of cloth off the loom didn't have all those loose threads hung on. Now, that loom has started weaving. Now that cloth that it's weaving isn't going to go on to the cloth roller yet, because all it is at the moment is just wrapped round the sand roller.

R- That's right.

So, as that loom is weaving there what it's doing, it's actually weaving cloth and winding it on to the sand roller. Now, you and I both know that unless something was done about that, the sand roller would get full up. It’d start, it’d reach the breast beam and just start, well it’d just …

R – That’d be a disaster. Aye.

... Disaster. So tell me what happens when there's say a couple of yards of cloth woven off and it's on that sand roller.

R- Aye. Well, you get two or three yards of cloth. And then you take all these loose threads off the sand roller. You take a wheel off at the side here, off the side, and wind it off; and then you get the cloth and make sure it's straight and wind it in ...

So you actually cut all those loose ends and the first two or three inch of cloth off. Yes.

R- Oh aye. Off. That's it. Aye.

So that leaves you with a straight edge on your cloth. Yes. And then what do you do with that?

R- Well, you wind it back in between the cloth roller and the sand roller, and underneath this breast beam there's what we call a stretcher bar, and (950) you take the cloth over that stretcher bar and down and round and wind it on to the cloth roller. And then, once you've done that, and done it right, you are in full production, you could weave, well you could weave hundreds of yards of cloth.

Yes, that's it. And that is a loom set up and, God willing, if there's nothing goes seriously wrong with that warp, that'll weave through until that warp’s finished. Yes.

R- It will.

Loom faults. How about loom faults?

R- You could ... there is a list a mile long of bloody loom faults Stanley. There is all sorts.

Goodness gracious. I know this is very difficult for you.

R- I mean, a weaver can stab the reed. Well, is stabbing the reed. When she is inserting the shuttle into the loom to have a new start with a full package in the shuttle, sometimes the shuttle could slip and poke its point into the reed. That reed's stabbed, you must have them dents all straight. If you get one bent you're getting a fault in the cloth see?

Aye, that's it, aye.

R- So that's one fault and that can be a bad fault. Weaving uneven, reed stabbed, two shuttles in, picking bowl falling off, picking stick breaking, bands breaking, dolly leathers breaking, boss breaking.

Boss? Which is the boss?

R- Well, the boss is a, it’s big job that boss. Better touch wood, I might get one Monday. Well, the boss is fastened to the bottom shaft, keyed on. And on the boss, you fasten the shell and the nose bit.

That's it

R - That's what knocks the shuttle across.

That's what actually catches the bottom of the shaft that goes up to the picking stick. There is a roller on that shaft, what do they call that?

R - Picking ball.

Aye, picking ball. But ball or bowl?

R- Well, I call it ball.

Ball, yes.

R- But I think it's bowl, it could be bowl, but it's a ball to me.

Yes. Yes. And that's what actually catches, that's what actually knocks the picking stick over right sharp and knocks the shuttle through the loom.

R- That's it.

And gives you your picks which is why it's called the picking stick. Aye, that's it. And I should point out that picking sticks do also make excellent hammer shafts. In the old days they used to make good ...

R- Buck and sticks? Buck and sticks.

Aye, buck and sticks, aye and what I was thinking of, you know is possing stick, you know when the woman's washing.

R- Oh yes, aye, stirring them up a bit, oh aye.

Aye, lifting clothes out of the boiler with the stick. Aye.

R- Yes that's right, that's it, they are very handy. Or fire wood.

Aye, fire wood, aye. And of course, that's where the shuttles end up nowadays isn’t it? Aye.

R- Aye it is. Aye. (1000)

Aye. The nose's knocked off, and ... But of course now we have gone smokeless, we don't use them.

R - I don't know, but I use it,

Aye, well …

R- And driving wheels, they have to be tight, they can come loose you know.

Yes, and teeth break out of them.

R- Sometimes a shuttle stand’ll accidentally get broken, that's a fairly big job. I think there is 400 parts to an ordinary Lancashire loom, a plain loom. Well, any of them 400 parts can come loose and then they go for the tackler. Did I tell you that tacklers were weavers with the brains taken out?

Oh yes… but I’m not so sure about that Ernie.

R- Well, that's what they say.

Oh well, after spending, what's this? 15 tapes with you, I'm not at all sure about that Ernie.


SCG/08 October 2002
7599 words.