TAPE 78/SA/10
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 16th OF FEBRUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
George Singleton with Newton Pickles at Bancroft Mill Engine Trust in 1984. George and Newton got on like a house on fire, they recognised each other's qualities.
R - The star card marker stamped your square in the register and then at the end of the year you were awarded a prize according to the minimum number of attendances you see? Now, many a prominent figure in the business world had started his career as a star card marker in the Sunday school. In fact in the train going to Manchester, men of varying ages you know, friendly. And one would say “Well of course he was a star card marker” as a kind of pleasing tribute to the past, you see?
Yes, I see.
R – Yes. Well, it’s the first rung of the ladder of service in a Sunday School, you see?
Yes. And would it be an adult or would it be one of the older boys?
R - Oh no. A boy, a junior, whoever was available you see. He would be appointed, he would be appointed officially, “Star card marker John Smith.”
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And the prizes you got, were they books usually?
R - Books, oh yes.
With the sticker inside to say which Sunday School it was?
R - That's right.
Yes. Awarded to, and they filled in with your name. Yes. We’re talking about the social events connected with the Church or the Chapel. We mentioned class distinction before, would you say that the Church unified everybody in that sense?
R - Well, I will say thing there was no class distinction in the Church as such, but Church members as a rule were, by virtue of conduct and occupations, were able to dress themselves relatively well which in itself
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marked a difference between [them and] many of the non Church goers who were indifferent to religion you see? It was as a self sorting arrangement rather than a deliberate class distinction.
So if I was to say to you what sort of people would you say went to the Chapel? Would you to able to give me an answer?
R - Well all kinds. There was no embargo, in fact most of the churches, on the notice boards or advertisements finished off with the expression ‘Everybody welcome’ you see?
And do you find, can you remember at that time that we are talking about every class of people would be a Nonconformist? What I am saying is that it didn't tend to direct itself to one sector of society being Non-conformist, or Methodist or whatever.
(5 min)
R - No but speaking generally the Non-conformists had greater freedom in their method of worship and generally led in enterprise but by no means
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was that confined to one particular sect. In fact there was action and reaction with one denomination or another as improvements took place in the development of society.
Yes, yes. Can you recollect any occasions where in fact the group didn’t mix very well? Perhaps even some may have seemed rather stand-offish to you as a youngster?
R - Well not as a group, but there were always certain individuals who developed superior airs, but that applies to society as a whole and not just to church.
Yes. No no. Yes. Can you ever remember going away for a holiday when you were young?
R - Yes.
Can you remember where you went?
R - Yes. One of my first holidays was to Blackpool.
From Darwen or from here?
R- From Darwen.
From Darwen.
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R- And, I suppose I should be about five but what impressed me was that the blinds had stripes in them as compared with the plain blinds at home.
These would be Venetian blinds, would they or roller blinds?
R – No, cloth blinds.
Roller blinds yes?
R - Roller blinds yes. And I still remember I thought “Oh how nice!” you see? And also I remember that the son of the people we were staying with was building a boat in the back yard.
Really?
R - Yes I remember that.
So in fact, did you go into lodgings or were they friends?
R - In rooms, yes, rooms yes.
Rooms yes. And did the whole family go?
R – Yes, what there were. Yes, there were only three of us then.
Well yes, you weren't complete, as I say you weren't complete then were you?
R - We weren’t complete. That’s right.
And did you tend to have fairly regular holidays?
R – Yes. After that we went to Colwyn Bay on several occasions. And I remember we had our group photographs taken then.
Would you go by train to these places?
R - Oh yes. And my father’d try to get as many children on one half ticket as possible.
Yes. Enterprise, anyway. Yes. And, when you came to Lytham, oh sorry, St Annes presumably the need to go away for a seaside holiday was rather pre-empted.
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R – That’s right, yes.
Andy can you remember sort of having long summer holidays on the beach here?
R - Oh yes. But then as we were getting older and as individuals, we took holidays visiting relatives and friends as distinct from family holidays you see? Yes, I think that was the end of family holidays, coming to a holidays town, seaside resort, you see?
And what did your parents think of you each going off individually on holidays?
R- Oh I would say they encouraged it, as the occasion arose.
Even the girls?
R – Yes. Oh yes. Well, as girls they were going to relatives you see? If not, or friends, it’s not as if they were seeking adventure in unknown areas. They were going to friends so they, our parents knew they'd be taken care of.
Would you say that during the time you were a child and, and had these family holidays, that the practise of having a seaside summer holiday was quite well established?
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R - Oh yes it was.
Yes because it came didn't it, with the ...
R - Development of the railways.
Develop, railways yes. Which, I suppose by then you could say it was, oh, about seventy years on. Well perhaps not as many as that, perhaps sixty?
R - From the establishment of railways? Yes, that's about right.
And besides the actual annual holiday where you stayed away, can you recollect any day outings or trips or visits to places of interest?
R - Well nothing special. No 1 don't. Speaking generally we were quite happy to play about. But, I remember having the liberty to go to Blackpool if there was anything special, for instance a cricket match. I once saw the famous J L Jessop.
Did you?
R - Scored 26 in one over. Because Jessop was a mighty hitter in those days. At Blackpool that was.
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Yes, did, did you have? ... Yes. Did you have any family means of transport?
R - No.
Nothing at all?
R - No.
No. It always had to be on shank’s pony.
R- That’s right.
Can you ever recollect having a…
R- I remember the first motorcar that came to St Annes to ply for hire, it was a small open tourer and he could, the chauffeur could carry three passengers and he charged half a crown each for the trip around the area.
(15 min)
It was, it was supposed to be a scenic ride, was it? Yes.
R - Yes that’s right yes. That was the first car in St Annes for public hire. It only operated for a few weeks and then vanished but it was something special.
How old would you be? Can you put a date on it?
R - 1903 or 4.
Yes. Golly. Can you, did you ever just go out with your father?
R - Occasionally. Yes he made a point of taking me to anything special. For instance, when I was 11 he took me to Preston to hear Joseph Chamberlain. I think I have already referred to that, haven't I?
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Not on tape I don’t think. Did you?
R - Oh, yes well I may have referred to it with ...
Stanley,
R - With Stanley.
Probably.
R - I think I have.
That would be a big outing, wouldn't it?
R - It was, yes it was. Very impressive.
Can you remember it?
R- Oh yes.
Can you really?
R- Yes. And my father was an active liberal and Joe Chamberlain was a Liberal Unionist who had joined the Conservative Party and I was evidently as a small boy enthused by what Chamberlain had said and I remember my father pretending to chide me for being a Conservative.
Lovely. Were your family connected with the Temperance Movement?
R – Yes. We were encouraged to attend the Band of Hope meetings.
What were you told about the evils of drink?
R - Well we were, it was pointed out to us that it didn’t do any good, rather the reverse. Had an effect on the health of people. I remember when I was nine, attending a lecture at the Darwen
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Higher Grade School, presumably given by a representative of the Lancashire and Cheshire Band of Hope Union who made a point of sending speakers to schools. Then, all the Bands of Hope, we had lantern slides of the evils you see? Oh yes.
Did you? And would these be special sessions for children or did you all just go along?
R – Yes, they were, they were mostly for children you see? Yes.
Yes. Do you ever remember seeing women going into pubs?
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R – Yes. Well, there was no distinction, once they, if their habits, there was no distinction between the sexes. If the habit was to attend the public houses, the men or the women, they just went. And, it was accepted in society, that was it.
It was accepted?
R – Oh yes. They weren’t, what shall I say, they were looked upon as mistaken people by those in the Temperance Movement and that’s it.
Do you know of any families ruined by, or more members drinking in your locality?
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R – No, I didn’t at the time, no.
Presumably it would have, I would think it was quite one of those things that would escape children to a certain extent I think.
R- Yes. Oh yes. Yes it did. You see, as it happens my parents selected their residences in pleasant surrounding and consequently we were away from, shall we say the poor quarters of any of the towns. And these things weren’t brought to our notice, you see they were, they simply, as far as we were concerned they didn't exist.
No. Yes. Would you know if in your, in your local pub, certain rooms were set aside for certain people?
R - I wouldn't know because I never went in.
Perhaps you might remember street performers or sellers who entertained passers by.
R- Oh yes. Now then, with the men came round with the, they called them organ grinders, they had hurdy-gurdies which rested on a wooden leg. Later on there was the piano which was put on a trolley for travelling purposes, and music was obtained by turning a handle. I suppose there’d be
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a tape inside which would strike the chord. And for a period before the first world war they were regular contributors to the outside entertainment. Then now and again we’d men with bears who'd come round.
And these would be performing bears would they?
R- Oh yes. They'd just roly-poly you know, and rolled. They rolled over a time or two, and the bears were, they had a ring in their nostrils so that they were under the control of the man looking after them.
Any monkeys?
R - Ye. I was going to say. Occasionally we would have the hurdy gurdy in particular. My recollection is they were mostly Italians and they would have monkeys tethered to the instrument you see and dressed
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with little coloured jackets and things. And that’s entertainment. That was the question was it? Entertainment?
Yes, street performances, street performers or sellers.
R - Or what?
Sellers. People who sold things.
R - Oh yes. Well there were fairly regular people who came round selling buttons and pins with a basket over their shoulders you see. Then we had the people who brought onions from Brittany.
Really?
R- Oh yes, that was a regular trade.
All the way into this side of the country?
R – Yes. Oh yes.
Good heavens. On a yoke? In bunches?
R- Well I believe, I learned since that their ships brought them over to a convenient port in the South, and they housed the onions in a warehouse and then the family who grew these onions, the male members, would spread out over the country with bicycles, or they'd go on a train and take so many strings of onions, and when they'd sold up they would return to another supply until they'd sold all the stock.
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Really?
R - And that went on until a few years ago in St Annes.
Really?
R- Yes. When we came to St Annes there were fairly regular onion sellers visited the town.
What time about? October, September, October?
R- The end of the year, that's right, yes.
Yes. And did they, did they have the yoke over their shoulders as you see in the pictures?
R - Yes. but ..
With the…
R – But more often than not they would be the, on the bicycle you see, they put them on the handlebars of the bicycle.
They would put, yes, I see, yes. And did any of these street sellers have a sort of patter that went with their selling that entertained you?
R - Oh yes, the different cries you mean, of different vendors. What else would there be ?
I think some of them had a sort of, a bit of entertainment that was their means of gathering their possible …
R- Oh yes. Well, we had the rag and bone men as we called them, and they provided children with balloons in exchange for whatever the parents…
Contributed?
R - Would give them. And sometimes they had those little windmills that children have.
Oh yes, that you could, they’re associated with seaside resorts. Yes.
R – That’s right. And, something like that to attract people. Then of course before the first world war we had a Bellman in St Annes and I
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think we had a Bell-man in Darwen who would be engaged to announce the date of a performance or of an event you see? And he would go round to a street corner, ring his bell, make the announcement, and walk on to the next street corner and repeat. That was one means of advertising you see?
Yes. And would he have a special uniform?
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R- No, just ordinary civilian clothes.
And the ‘Hear ye, hear ye’ bit? Or would, not even that?
R - Oh no, they were, no they were as a rule… But I remember one Bell-man criticising another by saying, for opportunity he called it tuniopperty. Now whether that was as a trick to attract attention or else I don’t know but…
Can, you mentioned the street performers and, and the sellers who entertained you. Can you remember if they were, they were more frequent visitors in St Annes than they were in Darwen? I'm just wondering if there were more because it was a resort.
R- I should think there’d be more in Darwen because of the size of population you see? And more people to attract their attention.
But, this was a resort then as well, to….
R - Oh yes They came, it was as a general pattern of earning your living by street entertaining.
Now you mentioned earlier that you either belonged to the Band of Hope or certainly attended their meetings fairly regularly and obviously the Sunday School as well. Were you a member of any other club or society before you left school? Like the Scouts or friendly society or church choir, or...
R - The Scouts hadn’t been formed when I left school.
No they hadn’t had they, that's true. That, that was a slip up.
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R- No, there was nothing in St Annes.
Now you've grown up, presumably you formed opinions of what Darwen and St Annes was like to live in. Can you ever remember having any thoughts then? I think one tends not to think of the place you are living in and form opinions about it. But can you ever remember .. well perhaps you compared St Annes and Darwen. When you moved to St Annes you might have compared the two places as a youngster in the sort of different things the places offered to you.
R – Well of course we simply came to St Annes for the health of my mother. So that was it you see? I think in the event the family got the benefit, both from the health point of view and from educational facilities.
You didn’t feel at all out of place coming here?
R - Oh no, we simply accepted the fact, and that was it.
Got on with making new friends. Yes.
R- Oh yes.
Do you remember going to a wedding when you were young?
R - When I was young? Yes.
Can you tell me any details about it, clothes, or any changes perhaps in the getting to the Church routine or what happened afterwards or the meal or anything that was different to the form that we tend to tend to follow now.
R- No, I remember my mother's half sister being married from our house at Darwen before we left, about ten months before we left, and they were married at the Holy Trinity Parish Church, she was an Anglican. But I don't recollect any details. It would be a quiet wedding because her husband came from Middlesbrough, so they had not many guests. There were simply family guests on that occasion.
You think, you think perhaps much of the proceedings were as they are now?
R - I would say so, yes.
Yes. Something that’s just coming to my head now, can you remember anyone getting married without going to church?
(35 min)
I mean, like we have registry office weddings today.
R- Well I don’t know of any but the Registry Office wedding was occasionally used before the war but not many. They were mostly connected with, marriages were held at churches.
What was the feeling of Registry Office weddings?
R - Well, I thought that they, they missed something, as it were. They missed the atmosphere of the Church, they missed the benefit of the marriage service. And, well, we church goers looked upon the registry wedding as a very poor effort.
And at the other extreme can you recollect any details of funerals when you were young?
R – Yes. They were very solemn affairs, invariably the mourners wore black. It was common for the bodies to be taken direct from their houses in which they died and it was a practice for the curtains to be drawn on
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the day of the funeral. The curtains in neighbouring houses would also be drawn in sympathy. Of course in those days the hearse and the carriages were horse drawn, very often the horses had black plumes on the harness, over the heads. But the whole occasion tended to be a solemn affair and we felt there was something that had happened which was mysterious and that the person who'd died wouldn’t be seen again. That was the feeling you know.
Yes, yes, yes. They, one of the interesting points you made is the business of the body was usually laid at rest at the home?
R- Yes. Until the day of funeral, because that is fairly rare now isn't it?
R- Yes. Well, what has happened is the undertaking has become a business. Previously undertaking work was done by joiners, or carriage proprietors who combined with the coffin makers, and the basis of charges have altered entirely. In those days they would charge so much for the hearse, so much for the coach and extras. But now they give the mourners a choice of an inclusive price without giving details and so you take it or leave it. In other words it's got now to he a very high priced industry and is not exactly a monopoly but I think they might well be the subject of, what’s the thing
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Royal Commission?
R - No, well not the Royal Commission but Enquiry into the prices. They might be the subject of an enquiry on the Prices Commission.
Oh I see. Yes, I am with you.
R- Yes. Oh yes.
It was a very discreet sort of local community type business wasn't it at one stage.
R - Before, yes.
And you knew the undertaker.
R - That's right.
And it was so and so’s uncle or something but it’s become much more impersonal hasn't it.
R - Very often. Yes that's true.
And of course everybody was buried, as opposed to cremated.
R - Oh yes. Cremation was never heard of in those days.
No. We’ll get on to more, better subjects anyway. Where did you enjoy going most when you were a child? Can you remember?
R – What, holidays?
Well holidays or days out or just somewhere in your locality, anything that is a particularly soft spot for you or full of memory.
R- Well, I enjoyed my holiday, family holiday at Colwyn Bay, we had quite a, several of them in succession.
Making sand castles and all.
R- But yes. But to me a holiday is a holiday wherever it is. It just so happened that my parents chose Colwyn Bay, and there we are, there we went.
Yes. You mentioned spending money I think on the previous tape, of a ha’penny a week didn't you?
R - Yes, or a penny yes.
And penny when you got a bit older?
R - Yes.
And, did you all have that or did it perhaps depend on…
R - No we didn’t all have it, it’s a question of ... when we got to the age of, we could spend and that wouldn’t be till I think we were about seven years old.
And when did you graduate to a penny a week?
R- Well, a year or two after that's all. But a penny a week was the accepted figure in juvenile society of those days.
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You have no idea how much it varies today?
R- Well it frightens me because I hear of youngsters spending as much as two pounds on a Christmas card or a Birthday card. On a Birthday card, which to my mind is staggering. But I am informed this is what happens today.
Yes. Well anyway what did you spend your one penny a week on?
R- Oh sweets of course. Andy the sweets that lasted the longest had the preference.
Yes. You mentioned the peppermint ...
R - Aniseed balls was one. Oh yes, eh I had forgotten all about those things. But you see an aniseed ball had a brown coat, and you got that licked off and then it had a white body and then when you'd sucked the sugary white body there was a little seed left you see, which you broke with your teeth.
Yes. Did you call liquorice liquorice?
R - Oh yes, but we could buy liquorice roots in those days as well as the sticky liquorice, the Spanish liquorice. Yes, and that was a favourite.
Because everybody, well I don't know about round here, but certainly around where I live, calls it Spanish without thinking. And I'd never met that expression till I came up here.
R- Yes. That’s true, well we call it, we still, we call it Spanish more than liquorice you see? Yes. Why I don’t know. Oh, may be that the liquorice root originally came from Spain, may be.
Well from your comment you just said Spanish liquorice root, you, you mentioned it just before, I think you might be right yes.
R - Yes I think that was it you see?
Yes. So your money went on sweets until you had to contribute towards the next football.
R- Ob well, you see, by the age of ten I hadn’t a football. When I was nine at Darwen I had no football club and at school we had football, it was only after I left school that we had these voluntary clubs you see?
Oh I see yes. But certainly you'd be trying to buy marbles wouldn't you? Or winning them?
R - Oh yes, or win them, that's right yes.
Can you remember friends calling at the house often?
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R- Yes but it was more often than not on Chapel business.
So it was, it was a fairly what shall I say, open household. People did freely come and go.
R - Oh yes.
And they presumably were invited or did they just drop in?
R- Well I think it was, they were invited because we were a very… They dropped in for enquiries or some information or a request. We were a very busy household you see, so there was very little time for entertaining as such. No we hadn't, if the point, if the question is visitors to be entertained, I would say no.
Yes, it was always on some pretext or others.
R – Well, not pretext, this indicates something illusory.
Yes, true. On business.
R - It was for a purpose.
Yes, for a purpose, that’s a better word.
R – Yes. Special purpose, that's right.
Yes. Did Saturdays stand out as being a particular day in which leisure time was spent?
R- Well, as far as Darwen was concerned that had little effect. But we came to Lytham, St Annes and then when I began to take an interest in football, and association football by teams such as Blackburn Rovers, Bolton Wanderers, Preston North End, naturally we boys took an interest in the games.
So that very often occupied Saturdays.
R - Yes but we often played ourselves you see more than watched the games. We did at Blackburn when we moved to Blackburn in 1907.
SCG/07 June 2003
4,473 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/11
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 16th OF FEBRUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
R - Well, As I was saying, we removed to Blackburn in 1906 and from then on I occasionally watched the Blackburn Rovers when I wasn’t taking part in football myself.
Did your father work on Saturdays?
R - Saturday mornings yes but not when we removed to St Annes. But when we removed back to Blackburn yes, Saturday was a working day, Saturday morning.
Did he do anything special on Saturday afternoon?
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R - No he had no particular hobbies, no.
Did you go to any concerts or theatres, music halls, cinemas before you left school?
R - No. Well the theatre was not exactly banned, but it was not encouraged.
Really? That's interesting.
R - Oh yes. But shall we say strict Methodist, the public houses, theatres, music halls and dancing palaces were out and they were supposed to be worldly attractions as distinct from religious life.
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I am interested to hear you say that, because the theatre today I think probably has an improved standing, does it not? And it ranks in the sort of cultural activities.
R – Yes. I would say so. Well you see, speaking generally the Christian, according to the strict interpretation, ought to be preoccupied with his religion and therefore to have no time for these worldly attractions, I think that extreme view arose from experiences in the past where, in different time, the standards were lower than they are today.
(5 min)
Well I think this ethic stems from Puritanism doesn't it really?
R – Yes. And the overtones have lasted the generations.
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That’s true yes.
R - Now for instance, we didn't play cards, we hadn’t a pack of cards in the house.
No. Well I think that was quite common wasn't it?
R- They were known as the devil's prayer book you see? That’s one way of expressing their view. But the line of demarcation was probably strong, it was if you like harsh but there was a reason for it. As you say it arose from the records of the past. Now the educational system has broken down the attitude to the theatre particularly with Shakespeare's plays. They became part of a curriculum in my early days and from then on it was permissible to witness a live play in the theatre.
That's a very good point is that, a very good point. Because the way the Shakespearian plays were performed in their own time till Tudor, Elizabethan times, put a very different slant on it to how they perform now. I mean the standing of the Royal Shakespeare Company and the fact that they form part of the school syllabus gives them a high credence I think.
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R - A Status. True.
Yes but you know that the way they were performed in Elizabethan times smacked rather the sort of thing you were talking about at the turn of the century.
R – Yes. It was rather the, yes, the strict line in which we were brought up was rather harsh. On the other hand I think it's to be preferred to the opposite loose way of living. And of course we were never forced not to do this that and the other, it was left to our discretion. And again, the entertainment, particularly Gilbert and Sullivan, and they broke down the negative view of attending theatres or places where these were given you see? But like everything else it's a question of discretion, you take your choice and pay accordingly.
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Now me move on to another part of family life, if it was part of your family life. Do you remember your family discussing politics?
R - Yes, very much so. My father was an ardent Liberal, and so was his father before him. In fact he might be called a Radical.
A Radical Liberal?
R – Yes. And my recollection is that elections were fiercely contested. And by and large the Conservative Party attracted the Anglicans and the Liberal Party attracted the Non-conformists. Yes, more so than today, much more so.
Yes. Do you know why your father held the views he did?
R - Well, in the first place he was brought up in the atmosphere and indeed Methodism has been the seed-bed shall I say of social reform.
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Methodism, having no bounds like a Parish, their preachers travelled and they were known as travelling preachers because they were appointed regularly every three years and moved from one town to another. But there were so many chapels in those days where transport was difficult that they had to rely on local preachers who were men, professional men, workmen, operatives who either had been invited or felt the call to preach. Brought up through the Sunday school and so on. Well these men tended to meet the needs of
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society and to intend to help. How shall I put it? They were pioneers in social reform, and indeed many leaders of Trade Unions were Methodists. As a matter of fact when the Darwen Weavers, Winders and Warpers Association was formed it was formed in my grandfather’s cottage.
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Really?
R - And he was regarded as one of the pioneers. I don't know what the date would be but probably 1860 something like that.
[In ‘The Lancashire Weaver’s Story.’ Chapter VII, p 38 it is stated that; ‘The Darwen Weaver’s Association was formed in 1857 by a few ardent and enthusiastic men who met in the home of one Thomas Singleton. Others were John Kay, William Walkden, Abraham Pinder and George Holden. The first secretary was Entwistle Entwistle who, in addition to his trade union duties, kept a stall in the market place’]
Would it be one of the new model unions?
R - Oh no, one of the early pioneering movements you see? Now, the union movement was started to regularise wages
Oh yes
R - ... as well as conditions of employment. And the large towns naturally formed their associations first, and it was like a disease, it became infectious and one or two started and other started. And so in Darwen, which was the principal trade union, it was started, my grandfather was one of the pioneers you see?
The phase of trade union development between about the 1860's and the 1880s, has it has been given the term of ‘A New Model Union’ where unions
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developed, which paid a fairly high subscription in proportion to the actual total wage and worked on the…
R - Well I don’t think that's operating till after the turn of the century, I don’t think so. They made the contributions you see, to the local, each mill had its own trade union representative, and I think they collected the premium, the subscriptions. I think so. At any rate in Blackburn, and in Darwen eventually, they had their own offices, their own premises where they met, you see? But, at any rate, I just mention it as indicative of the political atmosphere in which my family was brought up.
Yes. You mentioned that elections were really strongly contested. You meant at local level did you or national level?
R - Oh yes. Well at national level. You see, local government, again this was in its infancy. Let me see. Well, it began to develop 1860, 1870, 1880.
That’s right, yes.
R - Well then, whilst there was competition for elections there was nothing like the number of electorate and those who put up had to be in a position to be able to spare the time to attend to these functions you see?
And the money.
R - And the money.
Yes. Did your mother have any political views?
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R - Well, not active but she supported the family view.
Do you think it would have been a bit infra dig for her to have any strong political opinions?
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R - Well not infra dig so much as it wasn’t, the women had no vote at that time and they weren't expected to know much about it.
No. Was your father a member of the political party?
R - Oh yes, of the Liberals.
He was, yes. Sorry I meant the local club, as opposed to - I mean you had said that he was a member of the party - did he belong to any…
R – Yes. He was a member of the local club, yes.
Did he do any work for the party before elections?
R - Well that I don’t know. I couldn’t say.
You have no…
R- I’m talking about Darwen now. When I came to St Annes, yes he did. He did some canvassing yes.
And did he do any work during the elections, or on the election day?
R- Don’t think so.
No. Can you remember any particular election period when you were young? Or perhaps just an election day?
R – Yes. I recall the election in St Annes after the Boer war. I’m not quite sure whether it was 1902, I think it was. And A.J. Balfour I think
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became the Prime Minister.
The 1902 Education Act was Balfour’s Education Act.
R- What?
The 1902 Education Act was Balfour's Education Act, which was one of his election…
R - Oh well. That’s it. Blanks. Yes well, I remember St Annes being in the Blackpool division and the Conservative candidate was called Wilfred Ashley, and he married the daughter of a wealthy South African Jew. I think it was Sir Alfred Beit. [Alfred Beit; 1853-1906. German financier from Frankfurt, associated with De Beers in South Africa] But at any rate, he married his daughter and their daughter was Edwina who married Lord Mountbatten. Now she made a great contribution to the political life and in support of her husband, when he was the vice something, what do they call them? Vice Regent was it, of India?
Viceroy.
R – Viceroy! Viceroy of India that's it. Yes. Again one of the bones of contention in that election was tariff reform to which I have already referred in the fact that Joe Chamberlain came to Preston the year before see. Anyhow, Blackpool I think has always been, always had a Conservative member and it was regarded as a safe seat. In fact 1 think it's
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the safest seat in Great Britain for the Conservative Party even today. Yes.
We were talking ...
R - I remember attending a meeting in support of the Conservative candidate Mr Ashley, to which I was invited by a next door neighbour who was an ardent Liberal. The Chairman of the meeting was a Lancashire cotton manufacturer who was an exception to the run of the mill manufacturers in as much as he did a considerable trade with the United States of America. But in spite of the fact that it recently put on a tariff against British goods. In the course of the Chairman’s address he said that this tariff had caused him some concern and he at one time, he thought of removing his
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mills to America. But he decided eventually not to do so. When my friend next to me shouted out “Yes, and you are looking very well on it!” you see? As a kind of... In other words he has changed his mind, and of course, this man, quick on the ball and said “Well you benefit by staying in spite of the tariff” you see?
You presumably then weren't aware at the time what the burning issues of the day were, would you? I mean you’d be only, what 11 or 12 wouldn’t you?
R - Oh well, I mentioned tariff reform.
Yes I am just wondering if …
R - You mentioned education, there was the question of what to do with South Africa. And it wasn’t until the election of 1906 when the Liberals came in and Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman became Prime Minister and shortly after Britain gave back the control of South Africa to the Boers.
Yes. I'm just wondering if all these things have come to you since rather than being aware of them at the time.
R- Well, that is so, they have been confirmed, but I do remember the tariff reform which, from this incident, the Chairman was a Mr William Thompson. And the fact that I heard Joe Chamberlain you see?
Yes. What was the opinion of this area towards it, towards the tariff issue?
R - Well the feeling of the area was, that is to say the manufacturers were in favour of free trade. Even if they were Conservatives. Because they were concerned lest the cotton trade should be adversely affected. Right?
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Yes. Would you think it would be a fair comment to say that the fact that a lot of European countries at the time, that we had more or less free trade, and that the European countries had tariffs or custom duties or …
R - Custom barriers, yes.
Contributed to the whole business of our loss in, in foreign control.
(30 min)
R – Yes, I would say yes. It’s a long story but the success of Britain, with its industrial development and its extension to the colonies created national jealousy. And in order to protect their members, many countries put on tariffs to prevent British goods entering. And that was in the early days, it may have been the latter days of the last century and the early days of this. That was, I should say trouble began after the Diamond Jubilee of Queen Victoria in 1897. Well there, the politics in those days were very keenly contested, but in 1906 there was a big change of direction of British policy by the Liberals gaining the majority. And they had two elections in 1910 and of course were in power when the war broke out. I think I have already referred to some of this, with…
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Stanley. Stanley.
R - Stanley Graham,
Last week.
R – I’m sure I went to some length on that, yes.
Yes well. Well OK, not to worry about it too much if it does overlap. Can you remember if children played any part in the election proceedings, either up to election day or during election day itself?
R - I should say no except that they had a day off school for the election and therefore they were free to roam about, and naturally they cheered the candidates or officials as they moved about. But other than that they didn't take part.
No, no. Did your father have a fear that his job or hours would be at risk unless he voted for a particular party?
R – No. But I mean, and he couldn't, what is more he couldn't care less.
In other words his political convictions overrode anything else.
R – Absolutely.
Yes. Well I suppose, in your father's case perhaps the issue of work wasn't quite as relevant as if someone was working in a mill and ... yes?
R - Exactly. He had his freedom you see? He had his responsibility. Yes. True.
Yes. It's rather an unnecessary question I think, did your father vote in the elections?
R - Yes.
Did your mother vote in elections after 1918?
R - Yes.
Regularly and always?
R - Oh yes. She would do what she considered to be her duty but she wasn't a rabid feminist you know? But she approved of votes for women and, as an extension of service to humanity.
Yes. That’s the frame of mind in which she looked at it was it? Yes, because I was just, my next question in fact was going to be what did your parents think about the-suffragette movement and the votes for women.
R- Well, that's expressed it really.
Yes. Did your father have any contrary opinions?
R - Oh no he had no objection to votes for women, no.
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But they didn’t particularly approve of the violent activities.
R - Well, I don't recall specifically but violence was not approved generally in support of a cause. I remember it distinctly. Of course with their being articles on the television, what do you call them…
(35 min)
Documentary?
R- They have had historical records on the television of these suffragettes you see. In particular they've ...
The documentaries that you…
R- Documentaries, that's the word, yes. So that it comes to mind, but the names of Cristobel Pankhurst for instance and I think it was her mother and Mary Kenny and one or two more, there were a handful of them.
Emmeline?
R - They were, without a doubt a, a mighty power and they swept Asquith. Now I just forget the election in which they were, got the vote, do you …
1918.
R - 1918. Yes. Well, it was after the war.
That’s right.
R - And the women had done so much by way of service to the country, that Asquith had no argument left, you see? No.
No. No I think the actual business of the suffragette movement is, to some extent, overrated in their fight for the vote, and I think the contribution in the war effort…
R - The circumstances, that's right. That did more than their shouting. By the way, it wasn’t Asquith, it was Lloyd George.
Yes it was, that's true.
R – Yes. But Asquith was tepid about women, votes for women, even if he did, I'm not sure whether he even disapproved, but 1 don't think he did. But, at any rate, the service they rendered to the war effort made it so that there was no gainsaying their right to a vote.
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Now we’ve talked about education and school off and on throughout but if we can make a particular record of detail here, which school did you go to?
R- Mrs Sedgwick’s Dame School as an infant, at Darwen. Then she died, I went to the Darwen Higher Grade School for about 18 months. When we removed to St Annes I attended the Kildrummel School which was a day boarding school and there was about 50 to 60 pupils.
Did you board or …
R - No, a day boy, no I was a day boy.
How old were you when you first went to school?
R - Oh I think I should go at about five. If for no other reason than to get out of the way. But, you see, Miss Sedgwick the head, the mistress of the school and proprietor, she lived with us at the time you see?
Well, yes.
R - So she would take me down you see?
So you might in fact have gone rather earlier than ...
R - I might have been earlier still but I've, oh I recollect that she was, she had her school at two places, one in Hesse Street, Darwen, and the other one in Belgrave Road. And I remember distinctly both of them see? They moved from one to the other you see?
I seep yes.
R - The accommodation in Belgrave Road was a little better than the other one.
Do you know how old your parents were when they first went to school?
R- No. But my grandfather did think something about education although he himself was, you may say, self-educated. He was never a good writer but he had a native intelligence. But when it came to the finer points of education with his family, he did arrange for his eldest son to go to Queen Elizabeth Grammar School at Blackburn, four miles distant which he walked day and night. The next son, my father, went to a boarding school
(850)(40 min)
at Alston College near Preston and then he went to a school at Conway. His daughter, I don't know, I would say only received an elementary school education, his eldest daughter. His third son I don't know, but he was a well read man, so he may well have been away to school, I don't know. And then his youngest child, a daughter, she became a teacher and took up education. Of course, the facilities for education were few and far between in those days you see? Right?
What benefits do you think you gained from school?
R - A lot. I gained the importance of timekeeping and obedience, we had a strict headmaster. Friendship and learning which I very much enjoyed, I found problems with Geometry or Euclid and Latin but I appreciate the benefits of what little Latin I acquired later on in life. Particularly in reading as it helps the understanding.
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Yes. Yes I always regret not doing it, because I think it helps etymologically wise.
You mentioned that you had a strict headmaster.
R – Yes.
What were your teachers strict about?
R- Accuracy.
Wells you quickly answered that one! In everything?
R - In everything. And attention to your subjects. And of courses there was homework which had to be delivered the following morning. Yes, I am indebted to this headmaster who was a disciplinarian.
Is this at the higher Grade School?
R - No$ this was at Kildrummel after I was 11 you see. And whilst it was irksome at the time - we used to think he was a bit of a tartar, but nevertheless he was right. And this is the way to bring boys up. And my experience of life is that those who are strict and just are appreciated rather than the sloppy and easy going.
You are dead right. I'm convinced of that, yes. The Kildrummel school, have I said it right?
R- Yes. Yes, Kildrummel.
Yes. What sort of school was it?
(45 min)
R - Boys and boarding school.
Would it come ...
R - Boys only.
Was it a Grammar School then, or Private or…
R - No it was a private school. And the headmaster was a Licentiate of the College of Preceptors. And he took us through the College of Preceptors examination year by year, the junior or first year, second year, third year and so on you see? And I was there for seven years and I took the lot. Six examinations.
So you left school at 16 then did you?
R- Yes.
Would that be quite rare then?
R – Yes. That was as far as he could take me, you see? I mean, he couldn't, he’d no classes beyond 16. And indeed, it was the custom then for boys to leave school and go into the professions and to business at that period.
But I would have thought it might have been quite unusual for people to have stayed on as far as 16.
R - Well it was, no most people left at 15 or 16. Yes.
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Did they!
R- You see the parents who sent boys to that school were parents who had an expectation of what education would do for the children you see?
Because that would be a fee paying place wouldn't it?
R - It was, oh yes.
Could you have gone to Grammar School?
R – No, there wasn’t one. There was no Public School until 1905 and that was when the King Edward VII School was built in St Annes, later followed by the Queen Mary. And the funds for that lay in a charity which had been founded in seventeen hundred and something, by a generous minded man who invested, who bought a plot of land in Blackpool, in the centre of Blackpool. And as Blackpool developed, the income from the land rose until they had money to pay thousands of pounds to build these schools. Now, those now you would call Grammar Schools, the equivalent of Grammar Schools, you see. Yes.
Yes. Yes, somebody obviously managed it well.
R- Oh yes.
Did any of your friends in the locality go to Grammar School? No, they wouldn’t do would they? No.
R - There was no Grammar School.
How old were your parents? Did you know when they left school?
R – No, I don’t know.
Did you ever attend night classes after you had left school?
R- Yes.
And what did you study?
R - Cotton weaving.
How many years did you go, can you remember?
R - 1906 and 8 .. four years I think.
And, presumably, you worked for some sort of qualification?
R- Yes. City and Guilds Institute of Examinations.
And you passed?
R - Yes, I did.
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4,152.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/12
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 23rd OF FEBRUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
Right Mr Singleton. Well as you know very well, what I want to do this week is look at your experience of the first World War, the Great War as I think it was called the Great War then.
R - It was
That’s it yes. Now we got nicely up to it in political terms, and very largely in social terms on the last tape that we did together. But one thing that struck me was you saying that you walked down to the offices of the Northern Daily Telegraph in Blackburn and if I am right you were
(50)
a very young mill manager at that time weren't you?
R – No. I had, by this time I had changed to a professional life on the valuation of mills and works.
That’s it, yes.
R –That’d be 1912. Now the mar was 1914, 1 think it was August 4th was it?
I think yes, August 4th. So, but you had been a mill manager.
R - Oh yes.
And now, when you walked down that street in Blackburn that morning and saw that sign in the window, tell me what effect it had on you and what your thoughts were at that time. If you can think back to what your impressions were at that time you know. What you thought about the war and what you understood about the war then.
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R – Yes. Well, it gave me a shock and whilst at that time I couldn't visualise what was going to happen, at the same time there was a fear or dread of the unknown because war is destructive both of materials and human life, and in one sense I was horrified with the prospect.
In your mind then, did you even conceive the scale that that war could be on?
R- No, nothing like. Because previously all we had experienced was the Boer war which, my impression was it was mismanaged but nevertheless a lot of heroics took place and it's the heroics which one remembers such as the relief of Ladysmith the relief of Mafeking, and so on.
Do you think anybody at that time ... you know, did you hear anybody saying at that time, voicing any doubts as to what the scale of the conflict would be?
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R- Oh no, the man in the street, of which I was one, I don’t think had any idea of what was going to take place and what it meant. It was a head on collision, and we had to take the consequences whatever they were.
Yes. Now at that time of course there was no conscription. Some people volunteered immediately didn’t they?
R- They did.
Yes. And when did you volunteer? I take it you volunteered.
R- I did, but I was the eldest of the family and the bread winner. Now I had three brothers younger and the second youngest volunteered with a number of his pals from the Sunday school and joined the army within a month or so of the outbreak of war. My youngest brother joined
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in January, and the elder of the three younger brothers also joined in January. Meanwhile I went on with my work. Not that I was unwilling to go but my salary was required to maintain the home. However when the Derby Scheme was introduced I joined. Now the Derby Scheme was to enlist volunteers but to defer their call up until required by the services. Well, whilst waiting for a call up of course, I was on the look out for
(10 Min) (250)
joining an interesting branch of the army and as I was in training as a surveyor I heard through a friend there were vacancies open in the Royal Engineers. So I mentioned this to one of my pals and we decided to enlist with the Royal Engineers instead of waiting for our call up which is what happened.
Now then, I take it that all the family, you were living with your brothers at the time, all the family were living together? Yes. Was there any discussion between you about, on the general issue of volunteering and who should go or stay, was there any discussion at all in the family?
R- Well I don't recall specific discussions but I do recall the
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surge of feeling for the protection of the country and there is no two questions that the early volunteers were, I was going to say inspired to join the forces by virtue of the danger to the nation. It was a wonderful response all over the country and indeed it caught the supply services short because uniforms and equipment were not ready for the volunteers and they were drilled in their ordinary clothes for weeks. I remember in particular the Manchester Pals who were stationed at Heaton Park. There were rows and rows of huts and there the recruits were, shall we say housed, accommodated and the old soldiers were brought out of retirement to take charge of the training, the drills, This is what happened.
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Would I be right in thinking that the first people to go would be the Territorials?
R - Oh well now, the Territorials were under orders. So they were called up as required, but bear in mind they were volunteers in so far as they were prepared before the war to undergo training for the purpose.
When you say that the early volunteers were, to a large extent, inspired by love of the country, by patriotic feelings...
(15 min)
R - Yes.
Am I right in saying that probably not at that period but later, things went just a bit further than that and there was actual pressure on young men who hadn't volunteered, to volunteer. One thinks of things like the white feather that we have heard about, you know, and things like that. Have you any experience of that?
R – Well, yes. Well, early on there was definitely a recruiting campaign and the army authorities used the picture of
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Kitchener. And indeed, for a time, the early volunteers were known as Kitchener's army. So the voluntary recruitment went on I should thinks for over 12 months. I don’t think the compulsion came until later. And indeed, as far as numbers were concerned, the authorities were successful but then, later on, it was found that many people had volunteered whose services were more valuable on munitions or in coal mining. And so there were a number transferred back to civilian life on account of their specific skills.
Yes, I have come across instances of that in textile factories particularly. Tacklers I think was one area where…
R - They were, they were very scarce.
Yes. Where people were brought out of the army to keep the mills going. Yes
R - Oh yes they were. Right.
What I'm really thinking about is I'm wondering if you had any experience of personal pressure on people from say family, friends or even strangers. You know the sort of thing, “You're a fit young man. Why aren't you in the army?”
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R Yes, that's true. I was accused of being a coward when travelling in the train to Manchester on one occasion.
Can you tell me about that?
R - And, well ...
This must have been a very painful experience for you, I realise that.
R - Well it was, it was.
But you know, I think it's important.
R- It was. But you see there were very strong emotions developed, particularly after the first 12 months when the campaign in Flanders began to tell their tale of heavy losses. So the media, to a certain extent, encouraged the services and tended to criticise those who were not in. And also people with relatives in the services thought it strange to see apparently healthy, capable young men still in civilian life. It was a misconception, because they didn't know the circumstances of the
(20 min)
individual with whom they were travelling but it was embarrassing. But I remember on getting out at Salford Station along with another friend much older than me, he said “Well, I don't know how you stuck it.”
Can you tell me of the actual circumstances of the, well it was an attack on you, I mean it was an attack.
R - Well no, I can’t remember the words, but I remember being strongly criticised for not being in uniform.
By an older man was that?
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R - Yes, oh yes. But, what shall I say, it’s understandable because people don't always think things through and they couldn’t, they didn’t know what I was doing or a few other people, I wouldn't be the only one.
That’s it yes.
R- No, there were others carrying on their jobs and I satisfied myself by joining the Derby Scheme voluntarily.
Yes. What sort of an effect did that have on you, that incident. What sort of an effect did it have on you?
R – Well a little resentment but then you had to let it go, there was no point in arguing, the carriage was full of people.
It must have been a very difficult situation.
R - Well it was very unpleasant.
Yes. And would you say that that was quite common that sort of thing?
R - Well when you say quite common, yes. I would say mine wasn't an isolated case.
Yes.
R- The emotions were whipped up by I say a) by the media and b) by the fact they had relatives serving and perhaps had lost relatives and there to all intents and purposes there were young men going about in civilian life quite indifferent to the dangers of the nation. This was the spirit.
Yes. You have mentioned something there which I think we ought to just talk about a little bit. The role of the media, which obviously at that time was the newspapers and advertising. That’s true isn't it?
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R – Yes.
Yes. What sort of a picture, I’m talking now about the early part of the war when your brother, one of your brothers had volunteered and the others were going to volunteer, the early months of the warp you know, probably say leading up to the first 12 months. What sort of a picture did the newspapers present to the people at home, what sort of impressions did you have of the course of the war, its scale, its conduct from what you read in the papers?
R - Well, the papers of course published official communiqués. But they also able to interrogate soldiers and sailors on leave. And so generally they got the story over as to what was going on. I remember, shall we say the nation was horrified with the slaughter on the Somme, so much so that Lloyd George who was then the Prime Minister challenged Sir Douglas Haig and the Generals as to the necessity of this slaughter. Indeed the enquiry is still going on because an author called
(25 min)(600)
John Terrain produced a book last year on Passchendaele. Now as I was in that battle I bought the book.
Yes, well you did mention that the other week and when we get to that I want to go into that very deeply with you. I want to give you a chance to say just exactly what you want to say about that.
R – Yes. Well, shall I say we were horrified? And we wondered about the necessity.
Can I just interrupt you there Mr Singleton? When you say that “We wondered about the necessity” what do you mean by “we”? Do you mean the people that you spoke to? You know if you were talking to somebody in the train or something like that?
R- Yes. Shall I say those who read the papers and these people generally were shocked by the realities of the dead and wounded. And of course a lot of the wounded eventually returned home on sick leave. My comment in retrospect is this “Was it necessary to take the initiative to press the Germans back, or should we have adopted a defensive role? Having established a line and say “Thus far and no farther.” you see? Now that is the big question. But our Generals at the time decided that they should attack, and in the event we find that in many instances our plans were discovered by the enemy and consequently the difficulties were
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greater. I have in mind the sinking of the H M.S. Hampshire with Kitchener on board. We now know that the Germans knew he was on board. Also the Gallipoli campaign, we now know that the Turks were prepared, they knew our plans. Well, of course we were unsuccessful.
I get a picture Mr Singleton of the beginning of the war, you tell me what you think about it, I get a picture of a very proud nation, very strong, very sure of their own strength, presented with a challenge from Germany and reacting in what can be almost said, as I say I am getting this picture of a nation faced by threat and in some ways, I mean no disrespect when I say this, but reacting to it really in an almost unrealistic, amateurish way. You know, nobody seems to have really realised, the man in the street didn’t seem sufficiently prepared to realise what the possible scale of things could be. And what I'm wondering is how long was it before the reality started to dawn on people? The reality that what we were into was perhaps a lot more serious than people thought say, in between August and December 1914.
(700)(30 min)
R - Yes well, there was an optimistic feeling that it would be over by Christmas but of course when Christmas arrived, it wasn’t and we found we were in deep trouble, and from then it went on. But I wouldn't say amateurish but, because we probably had for size, the best army and certainly the best navy in the world, but I doubt if we were, well I’m sure we weren't fully prepared for such a determined onslaught as the Germans gave us you see. Again, with hindsight we find that there were diplomats, service men and politicians who did realize the seriousness of the war but speaking generally there were few. I have already referred to the fact that it was fortunate for this country that we had such an able government, men of ability and character. And it so happened that the change of
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government in 1906 had a very profound effect on events, because they did approve of Dreadnoughts to the navy, they did approve of administration in the army, they did establish the Territorial army, they did prepare for unemployment and the basics of the welfare state. So that they did gear the existing organisations into increasing the size of the requirements by way production of munitions and transport. And after the war we organised the nation in an orderly fashion through having the labour exchanges and the unemployment schemes. Yes. That is what happened. Of course,
(35 min) (800)
we were living from day to day. The events rolled over us like waves on the sea shore, and judgement had to be made by those in office, in power, as to what decisions to make. Fortunately, our determination won through, the whole Empire came to our rescue, I remember seeing Indians in their various regimental outfits, Negroes from the West Indies ...
Up to now what we have been talking about is mostly attitudes. Now I’d just like to finish this tape off with one last question about attitudes. It’s fairly well accepted now that, I’ll give you three names – Elgar, Rudyard Kipling, E.M. Forster. Three eminent men, thinkers, not perfect men by any means - anybody who has read the biographies of them will know that - but they all had one thing in common, they seemed to… I’ve heard you say that 1914 was a watershed as far as the cotton trade was concerned and I agree with you. From what I have read of the history of the cotton trade I can do nothing but agree with you. But it seems to me that it was also a great watershed in lot of other ways - and people like these three men I’ve talked about regarded the Edwardian period itself as a watershed in that at varying periods between the death of Queen Victoria and the start of the first world war, they seemed to think that their world had finished, that their world had ended. Elgar stopped writing music, Forster completely went to pieces morally and in a lot of other ways. And you get the impression from reading about men like that that the world changed completely. I think it was Virginia Woolf that said ‘On or about (I've forgotten the exact date, I think it was 1912) the world changed’ Would you say from your own experience that there was any truth in that sort of attitude, that there was a really big change sometime just before the first world war, when the world actually did change, when attitudes changed.
(850)(40 min)
R – Well, the war was the cause of the change in my opinion. War was the cause of the change. Now the Victorians, the success of the Victorian age to the Victorians was the expectation of the continuation of success. They never dreamt of any other because period after period, wave after wave, the increase of prosperity in this country developed until we became very wealthy with investments all over the world and an income from those investments and colonies, and other countries, backward countries and that brought prosperity. But it came in waves because with human nature, shall we say unable to cope with the vagaries of nature. For instance, the question of crops, sometimes they were bumper crops sometimes they were failures. Well, those caused more than ripples, they caused consternation in the financial world because those concerned, particularly in adversity, could not then pay for goods that we could make and so on. But nevertheless, there had developed a belief that generally we should, our success would continue year after year. Now I would say that was the common
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belief as far as a common belief can be defined. We, that is the population, weren't conscious of what was going on in other countries. We weren't aware of the jealousies which developed particularly with Germany and the Kaiser being a grandson of Queen Victoria and also having a deformity. He developed an ambition to a parity with, if not superiority with England. And I believe that was at the root of the outbreak of the war. It may have been embodied in one man but nevertheless the spirit of Germany was affected that way, you see. The effect of the war was to alter the mode of life in many respects, including the religions life of the country. Now up to the war there had developed a code of conduct which was more or less acceptable, the keeping of the Sabbath for instance, the attendance at Church, the training of young people through the Sunday Schools and so on. Now the war came and upset that routine and after the war it was never the same. The habit of Church attendance was changed, a lot of the taboos or
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prohibitions were changed. And speaking generally, people got more materialistic, may be because of the difficulties and shortages after the war because bear in mind it was a very costly business in terms of wealth as well as of loss of life and to get back to civilian life there were many difficulties.
(45 min)
So what we are really getting to now then is that in the same way that the Boer war was a tremendous blow to ideas of imperialism and colonialism, the Great War was as great a blow to the sort of social structure that existed in England before it.
R - Oh yes. Absolutely.
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3,440 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/13
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 23rd OF FEBRUARY 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
We'll start now with where you actually volunteered for the army and we'll start on your actual army career. So when did you actually join the army?
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R - I think it was 1916, yes it was, the spring of 1916. And I was sent to Clipston Camp at Mansfield which was a Royal Engineers' training centre. Now it so happened that recruits from Lancashire had to go into quarantine for a fortnight on account of certain infectious diseases being rampant in the county. So we were segregated in a hut, and food had to be brought to us you see? Now as it happens, at the school I went to, we had an ex army captain who taught us military drill so I was appointed as the leader of the hut for the period. Now we had some remarkable experiences. These men were all tradesmen in the Royal Engineers, were all either tradesmen, secretaries, architects or surveyors. And we had to pass a trade test before we were retained. Well however, in this first period of course we had to make our own entertainment and we had to sort ourselves out. Well, the first day, the food came and was dumped on a table and there was a general grab and one or two said “Well, nay chaps, let's get organised.” so two were nominated to apportion the food so that each one got a fair share, that went down satisfactorily, but there was one man, a big stonemason from Accrington, we
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called him Big George. And when he saw the margarine he said “What’s that?” He was told it was margarine. “I want no Maggy Ann, I’m used to butter!” and his neighbour said “Don't you want it?” He says “No, tha can have it.” So that went on for a couple of days after which Big George didn't hand out his margarine and his neighbour said to him “Well, are you not giving it me today?” He says “No, I've come to.” I thought that was very rich. And we had to have lights out early but we had to make our own amusements. After we got in bed somebody would start singing and set off popular songs, some would recite, some would relate stories and it was very interesting.
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But I remember on one occasion a man started a song and he pitched it too high and as he was going up he couldn’t get his notes, whereupon one wit said “Owd on while I fetch a ladder!” And, it turned out to be a young man from Feniscowles who was the driver of the steam engine for one of the paper mills. Well, after we passed our medical tests we were sent on to Chatham which was the headquarters of the Royal Engineers and there was a temporary barracks known as St Mary's Barracks and we did the usual drills and training and after a while I thought. No, just recall that, I remember having the trade test, a friend and I, we worked in pairs. We had to make a little survey of an
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area, and plot it on paper. Well coming away from this test, and other tests, there’d be a party of ten recruits in charge of which was a corporal, a lance-corporal. Well we were being marched back to the camp when we were met by a corporal so we were told to halt, left turn, stand at ease, while these two had a conversation. The upshot was that we were called to attention again and numbered off and the first six were told to right turn and march off with the corporal to the hut where we fed, to the dining room, dining hut. And from then on we were known as cook’s mates.
I take it you were one of the six?
R - I was one of the six. Well it was quite an experience. And the first thing we did was to help ourselves to a ham sandwich you see? And having satisfied our hunger we then proceeded to attend to the duties.
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And amongst the duties was the making of rice pudding. And what happened was there was a galvanised iron bath in which a certain amount of loose rice was thrown in and I suppose salt and then boiling water and a few raisins and currants were sprinkled in and that had to steep overnight. It was warmed up the following day and served as a second course.
No milk?
R - I think there was a little tinned milk, yes, added later on. That was right yes. I remember we had to clean our knives and forks and spoons in the hearth, that was supposed to be cleaner than any other method available at the time you know?
What were you cooking on then George?
R- Stoves, fed by coal or coke.
Coal fired yes.
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R – Yes, coal fired. Yes that's right.
Now, you did say earlier on that when some people went into the army in the early part of the war that there wasn’t equipment for them such as uniforms. I take it that by spring of 1916 when you went in, there were uniforms available?
R - Yes definitely.
Yes. And, what was the uniform then, was it trousers or breeches?
R - It was khaki trousers and khaki tunic, and a hard, round cap, what they called the Broderick.
I didn't know that.
R - It was a War Minister who introduced it just before the war.
Oh, I didn’t know that. And were you Engineers, I’m not quite sure of that, were you issued with a rifle in the Engineers?
R - No. We did rifle training, but we weren't issued with them at that stage.
That’s it. And that was St Mary's Barracks, Clipston, Chatham. That’s it, yes. Now, so you had taken your trade test and I assume that was satisfactory for you. Passed?
R - Yes. And we got, Royal Engineers got half a crown a day compared with the Infantry and Artillery men who got a shilling a day.
You were the aristocracy.
R - We were they the aristocracy.
And what was the next stage?
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R - Well the training was in engineering work, field work, bridge building and so on. But after a spell at Chatham we were drafted to Buxton for special field training. But before leaving Chatham I want to refer to the main barracks which were known as Brompton Barracks. And Brompton Square which was the training area, was renowned as being a very
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hard course of training. Of course physical fitness and obedience to command were both absolutely necessary to soldiers. And whilst the training was hard, it was nevertheless beneficial and the obedience to command was a disciplinary experience sometimes not easy to bear when you were asked to do something which in civilian life you would have questioned, but there was no argument, and I can see the force of it, because under stress and strain the obedience to command is absolutely essential. And I once remember a parade on which a deserter who had been caught, was dismissed from the Engineers, the Corps of Engineers before serving a prison sentence or a period of detention. He was a little man, a pathetic sight and I rather think his cap was inverted but at any rate he was made to feel very small and as an example to those on parade. Right. Yes.
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So you've moved up to Buxton now.
R - At Buxton we had practice in bridge building and other methods of assisting the troops wherever we were required, learning a variety of knots, how to knot ropes and what you might call elementary civil engineering. Well after a while I became ambitious and I applied for a commission.
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However, it transpired that there were no vacancies for commissions in the Royal Engineers, but there were in the Royal Field Artillery, would I like to accept? So I said yes, and from Buxton I got a transfer to the Field Artillery Cadet School at Clipsham Barracks, Exeter. Very interesting experience, intensive training and including horse riding. There was a special building with straw on the ground.
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Indoor school
R – Indoors, that’s right. Well of course there were all kind of horses and there were all kinds of riders with the result that the horses got indifferent to the word of command. And I remember on one occasion falling off into the middle whereupon the instructor bawled out that if I wasn’t careful I should be had up for loitering which was a regular tag. Another occasion the squad was out on the parade ground, in charge of a lieutenant who'd been promoted from an N.C.O. who'd retired and this officer had a young corporal who could rattle off army drill at a terrific rate. And then he would expect the recruits to absorb the commands, and take it in terms to do the same. Well sometimes the officer got impatient at our relative inability to absorb these commands, so he would
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yell out to the corporal, “Tell them again Algy, tell them again Algy!” so he would repeat. By a remarkable coincidence I met corporal Algy in France. After a period of training there was an order from the War Office that personnel should go overseas. Algy was stripped of his temporary stripes and he went overseas as a gunner and it so happened, he came to my battery for a short time. He remembered me of course, and I had a wry smile for the change of authority. Well, at Exeter there was an examination on gunnery.
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When did you actually first see a gun? Where was that at?
R - At Exeter, with old fashioned cannon for practicing, because the gun drill was very important.
Yes.
R - That those manning a gun should know, that each one should know what their duty was and carry out their duties according to the drill.
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When you say Cannon do you mean muzzle loading cannon?
R – Well, an old fashioned gun really. Yes, probably four inch bore, something like that. And, well as a result of this examination an officer came to see a group of us and said there were vacancies at the Heavy Artillery Cadet School at Trowbridge, would any of us be interested. Amongst those who said yes was myself so eventually we went to the Barracks at Trowbridge. And there we had a Regimental Sergeant Major in charge whose policy was to take the mickey out of the cadets. On one occasion I remember, on a winter morning, he had us parading at six o’clock doing drill in the open air which was a bit much. Well again, under the same order from the War Office, it transpired that the Sergeant Major had to go overseas and would you believe it I met him, he didn't join our battery but I met him at some place or other and of course by this time he’d lost his authority. At Trowbridge the officer in charge was one Major Clark and of course he was known colloquially as Nobby. And it was reported that he
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had an aunt who owned some land at a village called Wanstrow a few miles distant. So, in the course of our drill a number of us were told off to transfer a gun from the barracks at Trowbridge to Wanstrow via the town of Frome, an unforgettable experience. And when we got to the other end we found we'd a number of sacks and a certain amount of straw with which we had to make our palliasse for the night, and we slept in the barn. And the following day we were marched back again.
When you say move a gun, how did you move it?
R - We marched it. With drag ropes.
Yes, with drag ropes, that's it, aye I thought so.
R – Yes.
Aye. What sort of guns were those?
R - Only small guns for practising the routine drills you see? Eventually I passed out from there, I was gazetted second Lieutenant and went home on leave.
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What was your pay then Mr Singleton, can you remember?
R - Oh I don’t know, but it was a great improvement on the old pay. But, and we had to buy our own uniform, for which we got a grant. I bought my uniform in Exeter I remember before the transfer. And there was another incident that sticks in my mind. We had an old Drill Sergeant who was recruited to teach we cadets gun drill and the like. And the cadets in the squad had come from many quarters in life, some were professional men, others business men, others had been overseas and come back again, an interesting cross section of young men. But there was one man who was rather slow in his reception of instructions and on one occasion we were being taught the use of drag ropes and
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of course the instructor rapped out the orders in quick succession until this poor fellow got entangled with the ropes whereupon the Sergeant bawled out “What are you doing there, are you a snake charmer?” You see he got his… however they were a happy squad and we had a dinner at a local hotel before dispersing on leave, and I have got a signed menu which I only came across recently and which reminded me of the happy occasion. I don't, I wonder how many of them survived.
Survived, yes. And so you, at that point you had effectively finished your training as an Artillery Officer.
R – Yes.
Your initial training. When would that be Mr Singleton?
R – March, 1917.
Oh so that was just over a year.
R -That was virtually 12 months training.
Twelve months training yes. So what happened then?
R - Well now, having got home, shortly after this I got a telegram to report to Whalley Military Hospital for examination as there had been an outbreak of an infectious disease at Trowbridge barracks. I duly reported, was examined, swabs taken from my throat and was told to return home to await instructions. Nothing happened for a few weeks, whereupon I reported
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again to the Barracks and the Medical Officer said “What did I tell you? You have to wait, you are not wanted here, you have to wait for instructions.” So I went back home but after ten weeks I thought something had gone wrong so I got in touch with the War Office whereupon I was instructed to report to the overseas depot at Bexhill on Sea and after being there for two or three weeks I was drafted to France. Now as it happened I had to report to Southampton but it transpired that I was the Senior Officer, so therefore, temporarily I was in command of the troops on the ship until we got to the other side. However, we got to Harfleur where we entrained for the front. The train was so packed that, and by this time I was so very tired that I volunteered to sleep on the floor of the carriage whilst the other occupants put their feet across the top. And then the train pulled up at a marshalling yard at Rouen. Now I had been to Rouen on business in March 1914 which rather intrigued me. At any rate, we were there for some time and we had the opportunity of
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stretching our legs and taking a shave with cold water from a tap in the marshalling yard. And it transpired that my destination was Bailleul [It’s quite eerie transcribing this because it was at the Field Hospital at Bailleul where my maternal grandfather died of wounds in 1917. He is buried in the cemetery there.] and from there I was despatched to 156 Heavy Battery. In fact I think somebody came for me to collect me because I didn't know where 156 Battery was or anything else. And it so happened that it was the day before the Messines battle and that night I shall never forget. The officers were in the dug-out, my part of which was a section cut out of the side of the dug-out and a sheet of corrugated iron placed on the top of two bricks so that the corrugated iron frame would be less rigid. And that was my bed for the night. Well, the shelling was intense, the earth shook, and it was a harrowing experience. We had to wear our gas masks and I remember I was, into which I vomited as a matter of fact during the course of the night but I daren't move it, not until the morning. And then I found that I was alone, the other officers gradually dispersed, so I thought
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it was time that I should emerge and see what was going on which I did with some trepidation, it all being strange to me. By this time all was quiet but I had a look round, and within a few feet were two New Zealand infantry men who were killed and badly wounded by shell fire. No, it was a very, a very trying experience coming as it were almost straight from England.
(45 min)
SCG/08 June 2003
2,992 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/14 (side 1)
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE MARCH 2nd 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
(This tape was recorded in mono, both sides and is therefore two 45 minute interviews in one transcript)
Now, when we finished last week you’d just arrived at Bailleul and spent a very uncomfortable night under attack. You’ve gone out the following morning and found the two New Zealand soldiers dead outside the dug out.
R – That’s right.
Yes. So if you can carry on from there Mr Singleton.
R – Yes. Well after the battle we withdrew to the wagon lines. You see each battery had its guns in a certain position, and the wagon lines belonging to the equipment for the battery were some distance away in the
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rear, you see? Right. Well then, shortly after that I was appointed as assistant railhead officer at the rear of, well in the district of Poperinghe where the main line from Harfleur terminated, and where ammunition and other requirements were offloaded and then sent by petrol-wagon or small gauge railway track to the battery positions, It was quite an interesting appointment and many men whom I met in civilian life and also in our army training had to come there for ‘T’ tubes for the batteries and it was very interesting to me to meet old friends.
What is a ‘T’ tube Mr Singleton?
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R - It's a ‘T’ tube for setting off the…
Cordite?
R - Yes.
Yes.
R- Well I had been in that position for several weeks when an officer came along who was trained in the same squad at Trowbridge as myself and he was the ammunition officer to Corps Artillery headquarters and he said to me that that his corps was moving out and the incoming corps wanted an ammunition officer, would I be interested? So I said yes, he put my name forward and I was appointed an ammunition officer to
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Heavy Artillery Corps with headquarters at Vlamertinghe Château. That was on the way to Passchendaele. Well that was a very interesting occupation and by this time preparations were in hand for the assault on Passchendaele. The Fifth Army on our left and the army on our right joined forces
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so that I became responsible eventually for supplying ammunition to 74 battery positions in the area. That is heavy batteries from 16” railway mounted guns to 60 Pounders. In the course of my duties I had to go forward to the battery positions to make sure which was the best way of delivering the ammunition and I received reports twice daily of the ammunition expended by each battery so that I had to arrange to keep their supplies going. And eventually I was responsible for ordering the ammunition from the port of Harfleur. And what happened was, the ammunition train came to the rail-head, the ammunition was off-loaded onto lorries and onto a small gauge railway, what we call the Decauville track, and what was not used
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or what was not immediately required was transferred to a dump known as Hagle dump.
How do you spell that, Mr Singleton?
R- H a g l e . Well eventually - or after a month or so - the Second Anzac Corps was transferred and its place taken by the Canadian Corps, and
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I cannot speak too highly of the Canadians. The spirit and organisation was magnificent. As it happened the weather turned very wet.
What time of the year was this?
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R - During September.
September, yes.
R- Very wet and the terrain heavily pitted with shell holes, became waterlogged. Even the duckboards which were put down got buried in the mud. The battle went on for several weeks and eventually subsided, when the Canadian Army was relieved by the Eighth Army who took over and as I had the local knowledge I was retained by the Eighth Army. However, by December I began to feel the strain and although I was promised leave for Christmas I had very severe pains in the abdomen and was taken to a casualty clearing centre where I was kept a day or two and then sent on to a rail-head,
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a clearing station, and eventually I was shipped back to England to the Royal Free Hospital where I had an operation for appendicitis, that was the diagnosis, it was diagnosed as appendicitis. And by this time of course the pain had subsided and it was a question whether to have the operation or not and the house surgeon said “Well, if you don’t have it there might be a recurrence, now is your chance.” So I took it. However, to return to
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Can I ask you some questions...
R – No. To return to the thread of my story, two incidents stand out whilst I was in France, one was I took the opportunity of attending Talbot House, known an TocH at Poperinghe, and one Sunday evening I heard Tubby Clayton taking the service. And the other thing was when I was taken to the train at the rail-head on a stretcher, one of my bearers was a friend from my old Sunday School in Blackburn and I was put onto a train which had been given by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Co. and which I had seen as an exhibit before I joined the Army. Incidentally, Tubby Clayton was on the same train going to a hospital at Le Touquet I think it was. I'm afraid this is awfully disjointed you know?
No, you are all right Mr Singleton. Can I ask you some questions about Passchendaele and the job that you were doing there?
R – Yes.
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The thing that's always struck me, talking to people like you who were actually in the Great War, is the fact that they always seem to feel that they can't adequately describe how bad conditions were in the trenches. I know my father told me that words can't describe really the terrible desolation and conditions that there were in the trenches at the front line. And I'm not sure but I think my father, funnily enough you see, a coincidence, I think my father was with the Second Corps because obviously he was an Australian, he was in the Anzac ...
R – Yes.
And they were running, I have heard him talk about this narrow gauge railway because he was, he ran ammunition up to the front line on the narrow gauge railway I have heard him talking about it.
R - Well, well.
[Re-transcribing this interview after an interval of 25 years has triggered my memory. We have always had difficulty tracing my father’s career in the army because he joined under an assumed name. I have been told by the Officials at the Australian War Memorial at Canberra that this was quite a common event. He was an engineer before he joined and had experience with railways. However, a long time ago he told me stories about running supplies up to the line on the narrow gauge railway and could very easily have been transporting the munitions ordered up by George Singleton. Incidentally, my Uncle Stanley was working with him and father told a very good story about Stan drinking the rum ration on the way up to the line in the snow. He was found dead drunk the following morning.]
So I mean there is the coincidence for you. But can you describe the actual conditions of transport because obviously we are talking about a narrow gauge railway. This isn't a pleasure railway, this is a railway which is under attack, can you describe the conditions transporting the ammunition up to the line? Obviously this must have been a very well organised affair, and I take it that it would usually be done in the dark.
R - Oh yes. Yes that's true, but it was made more difficult by the fact that often the tracks and the roads were destroyed by shell fire and consequently the Royal Engineers were in attendance for putting the track right and making the roads up all the time. Oh it was a devastating experience and I agree, it’s difficult to describe, you simply went through it and hoped for the best you see? In fact you got to the point where you weren’t thinking about yourself, except for taking cover of course, but you got on with your job and that was it.
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And it's not for me to say whether attacking the enemy was the right policy, but it was a very costly business in life and materials without a doubt. However when I was in London, I received a message from one of my friends who described an advance which was a rare occurrence in that part of the line. And the thrill of advancing and taking any of the positions, he described most vividly and it was very thrilling to read it. Because you see the situation was so tense. Here you were normally, bombarding and getting on with the job and it didn't appear of service to anything for it to happen you see? You were in the same, more or less the same positions. Then the batteries were moved, they had to be moved because the enemy spotted certain positions of course and played onto it, you see? When they found it getting too hot for them, the Major in charge of the situation of course ordered the removal to another position. Under control of course, from headquarters you see? We had a Brigadier-General in charge of the Corps and suitable staff for different positions.
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What was the General's name?
R - Oh I forget his name but the General's name for, in charge of Passchendaele was General Plumer. He was a great Second Army man. I think it was Second Army, but I know General Gough on our left was in charge of the Fifth Army. Now he had a reputation of being a very hard man whereas Plumer was spoken of very highly because of his consideration for his soldiers
[Herbert Plumer was born in 1857. He served in Sudan(1884) and led the army that relieved Mafeking during the Boer War (1899-1901). On the outbreak of the First World War Plumer was placed in command of the II Corps of the British Expeditionary Force in May 1915 was promoted to commander of the Second Army on the Western Front and was responsible for the sector around Ieper until the autumn of 1917. Hubert Gough, a cavalry officer, led a division of the BEF on the Western Front during 1914 and 1915. He became a corps commander early in 1916 and took part in the Battle of the Somme and the offensives at Arras and Ypres. Commander-in-Chief, Sir Douglas Haig, regarded Gough as one of his best officers, but he was severely criticised by others for his over-confident offensive enthusiasm and his belief in cavalry attacks. Gough was blamed for the Fifth Army's collapse during the German Offensive in March 1918.]
Was he?
R - Oh aye. Yes, he is referred to in some of the books of course. Well, this ought to be edited you know, what we are talking about now. I don't know…
When all is said and done, this happened, this is 60 years ago.
R - Yes, of course.
What we are talking about in fact is history. The people are dead I mean and what we are talking about actually is the truth.
R - Well it's ..
I should think the farther away you can get from an event, the more likely you are to get an objective view of what happened.
R - Yes it's true.
I take it that Passchendaele, like so many battles started with intensive artillery bombardment.
R - Oh yes.
Yes. This was the set pattern of battles, yes?
R - Yes.
How did the actual logistics work out? Were you able to supply the guns with the ammunition that they needed or were there any difficulties in supplies?
R – Well, there were difficulties, but as far as I recall they were overcome. There were shortages of certain types of ...
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Fuse?
R - No. What they put on the shells, nozzles ...
Fuses?
R- Yes, that's right. And of course if you hadn’t got what was required you had to give them the alternative.
And I remember you saying that you had read a book by John Terrain
(25 min)
R- Yes.
About?
R- Passchendaele. Yes.
Yes. And I think you had some comments to make about that.
R- Well yes. My impression is that his main object was to defend the Generals against the Politicians. And, whilst there are faults on both sides, I would say the politicians were quite right in challenging the wisdom of the wholesale slaughter of the Army, particularly on the Somme the year before. I forget the figures but it was hundreds of thousands were killed and wounded. And so, whilst he brings forward a lot of documents in support of his case, 1 can't get rid of my impression that the politicians were right in challenging the wisdom.
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Do you think that, I've heard my father say that he often wondered whether some of the Generals actually realised just exactly what conditions were and what they were asking men to do in the front line.
R – Well yes because, speaking generally, the Generals were at the rear. Now of course some of them did make inspections. The generals, and there were several Generals in the area which I was under you see. Each Corps had its own General but I do remember they made their inspection of the battery positions and indeed on several occasions I had been picked up on the return journey home you see, because I had to go on foot. Yes well, it was, if I had taken a car or vehicle it would only tend to get in the way, it wasn’t worth while. And indeed the roads and the tracks, it was dreadful, so that it was really more satisfactory to go on foot except for the few miles from the Château where our headquarters were to the front. Sometimes I got a lift but speaking generally we had to walk and with our steel helmets on I'll tell you!
Did you? What was the sort of day to day routine of life at the Château say, I take it that you wouldn’t have to cook for yourselves, that you’d have cooks there cooking for you would you?
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R - Oh yes we had our food provided you see? We tried to have our evening meals at a regular time but otherwise we took our breakfast and midday meal as and when we were able to do so.
How about entertainment? I mean obviously there’d be very little but was there any relaxation at all? Was there any way of relaxing at all?
R - Yes, several miles to the rear, but you couldn't just please yourself when you went. After you had been at the front, or after the infantry men in particular, after they had been in the front for so long, so many days, they were removed and other troops came in and there was constant movement you see. And in our batteries we had individuals who could make a break by arrangement. But we had a little time off where we could go to Poperinghe. But Poperinghe was a hot spot itself you see, it was farther back that's all. No there was no entertainment.
How about the men in the batteries that you were supplying? How did they stand up to it? I mean, what was the incidence of going absent without leaves or …
R - Well I didn't come across any. Another word for it, what do you call it, desertion.
Desertion?
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R – No. Now of course there were a number of casualties, people going sick, people being wounded and so on but they were replaced you see so that was more or less individual treatment. No I would say they stuck it very well.
What would you say was the general, well not the general consensus of opinion, what was your opinion at the time? Did you feel that you were doing anything concrete towards the war effort? Did you feel that you were doing any good?
R - Well yes, I did in a way, because I had a very important job.
Yes.
R- And consequently I felt the responsibility. I would say there was a very good spirit amongst us, particularly amongst the junior officers. I was only considered a junior officer. The Staff Captain was immediately responsible to the General for the ammunition position and other matters but he delegated the ammunition to me you see? And other jobs to others.
Andy and so a good day's work for you then would be when all orders from the batteries had been met, and delivered on time, or as near on time as was reasonable.
R- That’s it. Now there was one, the first General for the Anzacs, he had a habit of asking me in the morning “Has all the ammunition been delivered?” And it was a question I couldn’t answer. All I could say was that I had given instructions for it to be delivered and beyond that I couldn't say. On the whole I don't recall a single instance where there had been a shortage of shells. As I have already said there was a shortage of a particular type of fuse but there were other fuses available but the most popular fuse at that time was number 106, I remember that one, but we had to, the alternative was a number 44.
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But the fuses controlled the timing of the explosion and so on you see? But I know 106 was a favourite.
[The 106 Mk 11a fuse was a percussion fuse and exploded on impact. I have never come across the No. 44 described by George, the No. 80 was the most common time fuse that I know of. I assume what he describes was also a time fuse and wouldn’t explode until it had penetrated the ground thus limiting its anti-personnel effectiveness. A point not generally appreciated is that these fuses were actually a Krupps design and after the war was over Krupps instituted a claim against Vickers for the royalty on the fuses used. I think it was settled by Vickers paying Krupps a notional sum of I think it was £40,000]
Yes. So you are busy getting this ammunition up to the guns. Did you ever spend any time, did it ever exercise your mind as to the eventual, well, I hesitate to say use of what you were doing, but did you ever have any thoughts beyond the fact that you were obviously on top of your own job as much as you could have been, did you ever have any thoughts about, you know, why are we doing this?
(35 min)
R - Oh well, we had settled that, shall we say earlier on. The Government had made it clear that we were under an obligation to the Belgians and if they were invaded we had to came to their help. And the fact of the force and weight of the German Army on Belgium and France made it obvious to the whole nation that we were on our defence, it was a question of life and death. So beyond that we didn’t argue why, we felt it was a fight for not only the survival of the nation, but the survival of justice in the world you see? Because the Germans had developed a shocking reputation for the way they dealt with their people and their method of colonising was quite different from ours you see? But one impression I came away with was the wonderful way the colonies supported us, I met men from South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, the West Indies, India. Oh it was, it was wonderful, it was a reward for the way they had been treated. Now in my opinion but not by way of boasting, the British way of
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colonisation was the best that any nation has put forward. That's a generalisation but that’s my impression. And indeed we had our reward to that extent by the loyalty, the loyal support they gave us in men and in substance you see?
And of course all those men were volunteers.
R - Volunteers, exactly, yes.
Yes, I think that's one of the important things about it isn’t it.
R - You see, we, looking back now, it’s what, nearly 60 years since then.
Yes.
R - Well a lot has happened since and we have been in the habit of denigrating ourselves and we have allowed unfair criticism to be accepted. And I think much of the criticism has been unfair, whilst there were a lot of mistakes if you like, and we were far short of perfection, but the intention on the whole was beneficial. I would say the answer was the support we got. That should be the answer to any criticism of the way they were treated. This is what we got, a voluntary support, and to some tune.
Looking back now, somebody once said that the occupational disease of the historian is hindsight.
R - The what? Occupational?
Disease of the historian is hindsight.
R - Oh yes, of course.
But looking back and obviously with the vast experience you have had since those days, do you think that, has it ever struck you that we had any other alternative in 1914 than to go to war?
(40 min) (900)
R - I don't think we had because of the jealousy between the German command with the Kaiser in charge and the British success you see? And when jealousy gets in control of judgement it can lead to trouble and it did. Now I would say if we hadn't done, we should have eventually been brought in willy nilly you see? Previously Germany had overrun France, was it in 1870?
The Franco-Prussian war?
R - The Franco-Prussian war, which was relatively fresh in 1914. It was within the memory of living people then you see?
Yes, that’s an interesting point yes.
R - And, knowing that and seeing Belgium overrun - and Belgium in a sense was a buffer state to England - fortunately we had the Channel, the sea has been our salvation so far. But now of course, it's another matter with airforces and nuclear power, the strip of water is not the same security. Nevertheless in those days it was and in answer to your question I would say we should have had no option but to defend ourselves. And the fact that we did it, and I would say for a righteous cause, because we had undertaken to defend Belgium and France, so in the event that was what happened. And it took all the three nations plus the Americans towards the end of the war to cause the defeat of Germany you see?
You have just mentioned something there, that it was a ‘righteous cause’ is the phrase that you used
R- Yes.
That's something that's always, it’s something that bothers me many a time, about people. I mean, I get a picture of you as being a deeply religious man.
R- Yes.
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Andy this is a provocative question, it doesn't necessarily express my opinions but we have the Commandment “Thou shall not kill” and yet men have to go out and kill.
(45 min)
R – Yes. Well of course that involves a theological point of discussion but there are other facts to take into consideration as well as that one you see. And I think that whilst I am a man of peace and would normally not provoke or attack, the question of defence brings in another principle. But it's not only the defence of yourself, but of others you see, the nation, and I've yet to be convinced that we have not to defend ourselves. Now if I make a digression, in between the wars there was a party in Britain called the Peace Pledge Union which attracted quite a number of people, ministers of religion and the like, and they made demonstrations. Now at that time, towards the end, the German Foreign Minister Ribbentrop was a frequent visitor to this country and I think that Hitler made a miscalculation, possibly on the advice of Ribbentrop and others, that the English would not go to war you see?
(I'll stop you there)
TAPE 79/SA/14 Side 2
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
R- I think he was advised that there was a doubt about whether the English would protect themselves, or whether they would came to terms, negotiate you see. And that's my belief on reflection, and I knew some conscientious objectors. In fact one friend of mine, I appeared as a witness before a court in Blackburn, no, in Manchester. And then he went, he didn't get what he wanted, he got a modified qualification, but he wanted a complete one and I went to an appeal court in Manchester and gave evidence because I knew this man was a real conscientious objector on religious grounds you see?
When was this Mr Singleton?
R- Second war.
Yes, the second world war, yes.
R - Yes. Well now, well I only just brought this in but it… Now, did I tell you that when I left school I went to work in a cotton spinning mill?
(50)
Well yes, we have not got quite as far as that with the structured tape, but yes.
R- But at any rate, it might be interesting here. Now my first contact with the Nelson point of view was at the age of 16 when I left school and went to work as office boy in a cotton mill at Blackburn. And one of the products was the making of ball warps. Now ball warps were for a particular kind of cloth, and it so happened that the Nelson area had been an area where ball warping played a prominent part in the cotton trade. So there were three
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ball warpers at this mill and they travelled from Nelson daily. Now, they were in a quiet part of the mill, it's an interesting occupation winding the warp from the beam, you have probably seen them. And I used to have to go to give them messages, instructions, orders, you see from the office and they liked an audience. They would engage me in conversation and I was shocked by their attitude to royalty you see? This was my first contact with the, what shall I call them, what would you call these men who…
Left wing?
(5 min)
R- Well you have called it left wing, that's right. Well at the Sunday school which I joined on coming to Blackburn I made a friend of the son of a man who was Philip Snowden, who was one of the early members of the Labour government, members of Parliament. And as a result, in
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our conversations we talked about Socialism and the Independent Labour Party and the Reverend Charles Kingsley and Ramsay MacDonald, whom I remember coming to Blackburn, in fact I travelled with him on his return journey to London but only as far as Darwen, I was sat opposite to him. But these early pioneers of Socialism were imbued with the spirit of friendliness if you like and social welfare as we call it, or improving the lot of many people. And indeed, there was room for improvement. And some of them thought that the Church had got somewhat rigid and wasn't
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acting quickly enough. Well, this of course, Socialism, was reinforced by what we now call the Communistic programme. And I don’t know, what year did Karl Marx die? I forget now. But, at any rate, these various alternatives of government were being mooted and bandied about and they had an appeal to the working class people. Now, you can't blame them because it was attractive, and the doctrine of Communism at that time was ‘You have nothing to lose but your chains’ Now, to somebody who was hard up and they have got no assets, it’s a very attractive doctrine. You see, in other words
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all you have got to do is to help yourself. Well, this kind of thing developed under the aegis of the Independent Labour Party, which comprised a number of educated people like Beatrice and Sidney Webb for instance you see and people who felt there were injustices in the body politic, and they were taking a short cut to put them right so to speak. Now it’s a complicated business, but that was the atmosphere which was developing about 1914 you see? And it was growing. Now I took an interest in politics and took part in the 1906 election. I was a carriage boy on the polling day, bringing people up to vote. Now, and as a reader of the Manchester Guardian and taking an interest in what
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was going on it became noticeable that the people in Nelson were more left wing than other towns. Of course Nelson was one of the newish towns in the county, and it could make a fresh start and it did. It also attracted manufacturers from other areas because it could offer more modern mills and more modern dwelling houses so to that extent it had an advantage. Why the leftwing political action should develop so strongly in Nelson I can’t say but it did. In fact it was known an Little Moscow you see?
At one time in fact, I think it was the only time it ever happened, the Independent Labour Party actually controlled the Council at Nelson.
R – Yes. I believe it did.
Yes, I think it was the only place.
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R – Yes, I believe it did. Well now as 1 say, it was very attractive and it took, it drew a large number of people from the churches, particularly Non-Conformist churches, and they adopted the method, the church methods of raising funds by having house meetings and collections. You see I have known this, I have been told this by people because I mixed in society at all levels see? Not only in my church work and my mission work, I was connected with the Blackburn Methodist Mission and also political. And so I had my fingers on the pulse of what was going on. Now I would say that the impulse if you like, of Socialism was inadequate because it didn't change the lives of the individual, it changed the environment, that's what it set out to do and it has done but it’s not an adequate policy In my opinion to be relied on, it has its weaknesses. Now, as has now been shown by the way the political side has
(15 min) (400)
developed. Now, the action of trade unionists today is a travesty of the Socialism of yesterday you see? And the vision has gone of ‘Each for all and all for each’ you see? It's now ‘What can I get out of it? Where do I come in?’ you see? But unfortunately those who vote yet are still deceived by the plausibility and the promises of the Labour Party which called itself a Socialist Party but it's far from being Socialism in its ideal state as understood you see?
Yes.
R - And as I said it's a big subject but we’ll have to come back to it again.
Well now, leading on from that, connecting that up to the war, it seems to me that - and I’d like you to put me straight on this, tell me what you think about this - the Great War was, I think we have both agreed, a tremendous watershed in more ways than one.
R - Oh yes.
For almost anything you care to mention. For the spirit of Empire, the ...
R – Everything.
... direction of the country, the role of women in society and…
R- Everything ... everything.
Now, what effect do you think the Great War and the fact that so many young men went to military service and, if they were lucky enough to return
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return, certainly after what must have been a shattering experience. What effect do you think that had on - and what we are talking about now is for want of a better term 'the working class of Britain' - did it affect their attitudes?
R - Well it did, it affected their attitude to religion. For one thing the old regime, the old routine of attending Sunday School and service and conforming to type had been shattered by the, shall we say the means of the war. Now we are talking about those who'd returned. In the first place they were tired out you see? They wanted a period for recovery and of course the politicians put it forward that we were going to make the land fit for heroes to live. Well, a very laudable ambition but it was a long way from what eventually happened. Now we soon found that we’d, to a large extent, expended our monetary resources in defence in the course of the war so that we had inflation with us, up to - for a period - as far as five
(20 min)(500)
times the cost pre-war. Well then, as goods came on the market and as production developed, the situation changed and gradually prices came down and then we had a slump, two or three years after the war. I think it was in 1924 and I would say from then prices had got to twice 1914. Now, there was also a certain amount of unemployment because not only our country but other countries were finding the monetary situation difficult to balance. Well then we went off the gold standard. We, no, we went on to the gold standard, which was a purist idea on monetary lines but the effect was disastrous because it led to the collapse in 1929 when if you remember there was a National Government. Now in the ten years, people had hardly time to get settled down. When the war was over they had hopes that everything would be lovely but it didn't turn out that way. It was delightful to live in a condition of peace and with the [removal of] limits to have the freedom of movement and so on and, but these events
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if you like cast shadows over the country and made it difficult. And strange to say, and I don't like admitting it, but the recovery in the national trade and employment was due to preparation for the Second World War. It was.
Yes.
R - Now, if that had, I don’t know, if that hadn’t happened what would have taken its place. I suppose we’d have jogged along but we have got to deal with the facts. And then in the space of 25 years there was another war started, 1939 you see? Now they, I think we had not the quality of politicians that we had before the First World War. And what makes me say that is that the Rent Restriction Acts were put in rightly to protect those who were away in the forces, but they were retained [after the war. Now that was a gross injustice on landlords.
Was that the original reason?
R – Yes.
I didn’t know that Mr Singleton.
R – Yes. Well that, people don’t know. You see, simply to say that ‘You are serving in the army your house shall not be taken away from you.’ or ‘your wife will remain in the house where you were.’ which was right you see? Now a large number of houses were owned by working people, because until 1909 there was no welfare State and the
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aim and object of the working class was to avoid the workhouse and avoid the Poor Law, and avoid a pauper's burial. Now that was a fear in the minds of people before the First World War. Now, they made various self-help steps to protect themselves from those things you see? They'd local burial societies, they'd local self-help organisations and so on. There was something else, yes the thrifty workpeople, with the fear of the workhouse shall we say at the back of things, they saved and they bought their own cottage and the one next door. This is the theory of it, it wasn’t always the same proximity but the idea was this, that - now rents for certain types of cottages would be about 5/ a week, including rates - so that and their income from earnings varied from, a railway porter was 18/- until 1911 but the average wage would be about, in Coventry 25/- but it varied from 21/- shall we say, to 32/-. Now the aim and object of the thrifty was to save and buy their own cottage and the one next door. Now if they then, they were rent free and they had an income of 5/- a week. Now then you see. Now, there were thousands of those, there was a ready market, there was an auction market nearly every week of cottage property changing hands in Blackburn and other towns. Because they were not grasping landlords, not they, they were honest to goodness thrifty people but they were unable to protect themselves and they did not get the rents which they were entitled to. And the properties fell into neglect and that's the root cause of the housing trouble today. There is not a shadow of doubt. Now then. Now ... Right. Well now - where have I got to?
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That they ... That was the start of the housing trouble today.
R - Oh yes. Now, and this is a challenge to democracy, if the political parties will not face reality, then democracy is doomed. But only one man endeavoured to face the issue and that was Macmillan when he was the Prime Minister. Now Harold Macmillan – no, I'm not a Conservative nor am I a Labour man - so I was speaking independently I think, Harold Macmillan will go down in history as one of the best Prime Ministers we have had, with all his faults as a junior minister. He had more houses built in his career time than any other. And he did make an attempt to get the Rent Restriction Act removed, he got one removed, I forget which type of house, and then shortly after his government came down and the Labour came in again. It was revoked. Now it's wrong, it's injustice, it’s not just to use other people’s money and this is what's happening. And I put it another way, that the television industry has thrived on the rents that the landlords should have received. Now 1 know there is a friend of mine living in a rented house now and his parents got it in 1914, and he is still in this house you see and paying a rent, and the landlord's only entitled to a certain rent which is inadequate to maintain it so he does a bit to maintain it you see. But this is the root cause why so many thousands of houses
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have been let go to rack and ruin and now the country, the government are putting, lending or giving millions for them to be restored when it's too late. Oh it's, I shudder to think of what’s going on. No wonder we then got inflation, that’s only contributory, that's only one, we are spending far too much money in figures than we have got. And what is happening in this is that the saving, the reserves of the
(30 min)
country are being squandered. Now, some people will say I am biased but I say that is a fact.
Yes.
R- Now, in my youth, this son of a treasurer for Philip Snowden, he used to talk to me about how capital money was watered down like milk. You see it’s a common expression. And people got money for shares who were increased, and all that kind of thing, for nothing. Now it's easy talk and it was wrong, but I am going to use it for the same way because now the real money is being watered down by inflation so that although I may have saved 2 or 3 thousand pounds up to 1939 that will only buy me now £200 worth, you see?
That’s it.
R - Now then, and that's only mine but this is what’s happening and we are impoverished now. I had a friend of mine, well one of my partners, in here and we were talking about insurance and he said to me, “I don’t think you have insured your house for a sufficient sum.” I say “Well, I want your advice” He says “For instance, what do you put this suite at?” I said “Oh, about £400.” He says “Ridiculous, you wouldn’t get it for £1000 today.” I said I wasn’t bothered and he said well, there you are.
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I took a piece of silver, a silver plate, a solid silver salver, it’d come down to me from my wife and from her brother and so on you see? Now one of my family, well two are having silver wedding jubilees this year. So I’ve got two pieces of silver, one piece has been badly scratched, so I took it to a jeweller “It’s very nice is this. Well it will be when it's finished up. I got a quotation for one last week, £495.” Now, that would have been, when it was bought that would have cost about £50 or £60 you see. Now, £495, eight times you see. And I had some fish eaters, I had taken those to, and they are 120 years old, solid silver, they had been handed down. So instead of buying [a present], you see I said “Well” and they have got the S on, Singleton. So I took those because one had got bent, a fork had got bent you see? He said “Oh, I’ll soon
put that right, and polish them off. What do you think they are worth?” I said “I don't know.” I thought I was being generous at £150. He says “What!” Now look here, I'm a valuer but I am out of date, and I wouldn’t advise anybody. I'm not confident now because I've rusted you see, as far as actual value. I can talk about principles but not actual value see?
Yes.
R- Now those two simple illustrations, I could not afford to have bought either of those to make presents.
That's it.
R - Now then, that’s it you see? Now it's only because we happened to have them in the family. Now this is an illustration, this is going on, and the country's being denuded, and people are selling. How many shops, antique shops are opening? Like mushrooms. Why? Because people don’t know the value of things which they can get, and the traders
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come in, the bright boys are speculators, and they buy and they sell to America and so on. There you are, it's only a fact. Now, it is going, our reserves are going.
(35 min)
Now then, we have got one of our little digressions there, it's all very interesting but we'll go back if you please to during the Great War. You had been brought home from the front with a suspected appendix and had it removed.
R- That’s right. Well it was removed by an eminent surgeon from Australia, a Mr Cummings who had a reputation of having written a book on surgery. And the operation, the night following the operation was the last night a Zeppelin attack came over London, and the patients were taken to the basement you see? And I remember saying to the porters “Well, you don’t need to take me down. I have been under worse conditions for month you see, shells were all over the place!” However, they took me down. The following day I complained of a pain in my groin and a pain in my chest. I eventually coughed up a clot of blood from the chest but the one in my groin, my leg was swelling. It turned out that the clot of blood had escaped from the wound and it was causing congestion in a vein or an artery, I don't know what, all my legs began to swell. Well eventually I was discharged from hospital and sent to Kings Lancashire Military Hospital at Squires Gate, Blackpool on the site of the present airport. And then, being an officer, I was - what shall I say - living in one of the hotels on the promenade, the Queens Hydro to be precise. Now this was in the spring.
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What year Mr Singleton? What year?
R- 1918. This was in the spring, and it was a very happy camp. As it happens I knew many of the officers, they were friends of mine, we had met in different parts and known [knew each other. And Blackpool was a very bracing holiday centre without a shadow of doubt and the recovery was good. But mine was a slow business. I recovered, my health and strength returned, but it transpired the swelling in the leg was permanent. So in November, the firm whom I had left to join the army, were short of staff and seeing that my health had returned, they wondered if I could help them. So we came to terms with the War Office, that I should be temporarily seconded to the firm and they would reimburse my, what do you call it?
Salary?
R- My, you know, pay.
Your pay.
R- Pay. And that went on until the February in 1919. Yes, then I was discharged with a small pension for the disability. And I remember the surgeon who discharged me said “Well young man, you'll never have a nearer squeak than what you've had. Get back into civil life and forget it.” Which I did.
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Good.
R- In other words, this clot of blood on the lung, you know, could have…
Yes
R - Oh yes.
Aye, obviously. So that was the finish of the war for George Forrester Singleton.
R- That’s right.
And looking back now - how can I say - obviously the war was a very bad experience, a shattering experience for many men, many men were never the same again. But what were the good things? Did anything good come out of the war as far as you were concerned? Out of your military service? Let me put it that way, out of your military service.
R - Well yes. I was able to qualify as an officer got a commission, which gave me a status and a better style of living than an ordinary soldier. And, but as it so happened, I was equal to the occasion by the services I was able to give as I have already explained to you.
What I really mean is, do you think that the George Singleton that came out of the war was a different George Singleton than the one that went in?
R- Well yes, you’re bound to be. It was a hard experience of life, the training was hard, the conditions were hard, but we never expected them to be anything else, that was the order of the day. The nation was at war, our backs were to the wall, civilians were making munitions, the able men, and women later, were taking part on the active front, you see? So that we were, shall we say wiser, after the event and as far as individuals learning anything, yes we learned that there was a
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camaraderie amongst the fellows you met and you met all kinds of people from all strata in life and it was a very interesting experience and certainly broadened one’s view, without a doubt.
Yes. One last thing. You said something during the course of that tape that intrigued me, that you travelled back to Darwen on the same train as Henry Campbell Bannerman and in fact you were in the same compartment.
R – No, not Campbell Bannerman. . .
Ramsay MacDonald.
R - Ramsay MacDonald.
I beg your pardon, Ramsay MacDonald, that's my mistake. You are quite right, that’s my mistake.
R- Right.
Did you have any conversation with him?
R- No.
What was your impression of Ramsay MacDonald?
R - Well he was rather, but {George was running out of time] (you have got W) Yes. On the political side I have, I have always been interested in politics because both my father and grandfather were ardent Liberals, but I remember my father took me to hear Joseph Chamberlain in Preston, I think in 1901 and since then I have heard Philip Snowden, Keir Hardy, Lloyd George, Herbert Asquith, T.P. O'Connor as he was known - an Irishman. And of course before radio and television the only way politicians could get a message over was to hold meetings in large centres and the daily press. And so, Oh yes, Sir Archibald Sinclair and so on. Right, I think…
SCG/09 June 2003
8,365 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/15
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON MARCH THE 9th 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
Now, Mr Singleton, when I was last here we were discussing education.
R - Yes.
And the last point I think we made was the studying you did after you left school but I think we concluded that point. So just for a little while longer we'll discuss education and your schooling. When you were at school were you able to get home for your dinners?
R - Yes.
So, you just came home during the lunch hour and had lunch with the rest of the family?
R – Yes, we’d a two hour interval.
Two hours?
R- Half past twelve till half past two.
Did you?
R - But we worked till half past four.
Yes.
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R - You see? We’d start at nine o'clock till half past twelve with a break at eleven for a quarter of an hour and we were provided with a glass of milk and a thick piece of bread covered with syrup. This was a private school, a boarding school, but boarders and day boys got this refreshment in the middle of the morning. And to growing boys it's a very good thing.
Lasted you out till lunch time.
R - Yes.
You walked home presumably did you?
R – Yes.
Yes. Were you trained in any practical work at school?
R- No. Not at this private school. At the Darwen Higher Grade School there was a subject called Manual which in effect was woodworking. We were taught to use saws and chisels, but at the private school we had no such facilities we had a full programme without. Yes.
Did your parents ever visit the school?
R - Well, they were invited to speech days and prize giving and such occasionally but otherwise there was no need to visit the school.
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Presumably because it was a boarding school as well, there weren’t such things as ‘Parent’s Evenings’ because of the problem of distance for some of the parents.
R – No. But the parents had direct access to the headmaster. You see there was no interfering authority between the school and the parents.
Yes well, the general thing of course…
R - You see the whole concept of education has developed and I’ve seen it grow and known of it before I was born because my mother and her aunt were teachers under the Education Act of 1870. Now perhaps I might say at this stage that up to that period education
(5 min)
was provided by Christian Churches. Anglican, Roman Catholic and Non-Conformist. As good as that was it had limitations and difficulties caused by inter-denominational rivalries.
Yes they were quite ... running high weren't they?
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R- You see? Now as a result the board of Education developed a method of control whereby there was an Education Committee formed in the town of sufficient size. And the Education Officer exercised some form of control as to standards and as to the qualification of teachers. Well, eventually this local Board of Education brought in what was known as a Higher Grade School to take the education of the scholars beyond the elementary teaching of the churches you see?
R - Now, that involved the coming together shall we say…(stop it will you?)…This brought the higher Grade Schools above denominational interests and it might be said it was the foundation of the educational system as we now know it because after 1900 and up to the first world war, Board Schools were introduced for elementary education as well an higher education. But in certain area’s as in Blackburn they had a Boys Grammar School of an early foundation and the Girls High School. Now, each with an independent lot of Governors. Now the Grammar school has remained independent to this day but the High School became absorbed in the local education system and was lost. Now then, how far have we got? What’s the next question?
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Well it was in fact the degree of interest shown in your school work but 1 think you've you already answered that by your previous question. Did the school contact your parents about your progress?
R- Well they got, I think we got weekly reports. We certainly got terms reports and so there was direct contact between the school and the parents. And the parents had no difficulty in making an appointment to discuss anything they wished with the headmaster.
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Did your teacher suggest types of jobs which you might pursue?
R- No, that kind of question was unnecessary in a private school and whilst in general conversation the headmaster would chat with the senior boys in a general way and might point out interesting features in different careers there was no programme of career guidance.
What sort of jobs or careers did the headmaster sort of regard as a good career.
R- Well I couldn’t recall, but I remember the headmaster was interested in what happened in the world outside the school, and used to think that the cotton trade, which was the principal trade of the county, was very interesting and its ..
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Prospects?
R – Yes but he’d no decided influence and it was generally assumed that parents would look after their children in the choice of their future.
How did your school mark Empire Day and other special events like Queen Victoria's Jubilee or Coronations?
R - By a half day holiday.
Well, that’s simply answered. You can't recollect sort of doing massive projects or anything to mark it or decorating the school or anything?
R – No. But you see the civic authorities of those days recognized Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee and Edward VII Coronation by giving school children medallions to celebrate the events. And a certain amount of entertainment and firework displays, but there was no big scale of events.
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And Empire Day? No particular…
R- Oh no. It was, I think if I remember rightly, Empire Day took place on Queen Victoria’s birthday, I think it was substituted, I think so. Because Empire Day only came in, not long before the war as a special day.
Yes I see.
R- Not been going all that long. I've an idea it was Disraeli who put forward the suggestion of Empire Day when Victoria became Empress of India.
Oh I see, yes.
R- I think there was some connection that way. It was on May 24th wasn’t it? Yes, I think it was May 24th and I think it was a substitute for Queen Victoria's birthday. But we also celebrated May 29th which was Royal Oak Day.
[June 1st was Empire Day. Oak Apple Day or Royal Oak Day was 29th May]
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Oh yes. By a holiday again?
R – Yes, which meant an extra game of cricket.
Yes. Now then we'll leave education for the moment and go on to another area. Did the neighbours help…
R- Wait a minute. Have I made it clear that the relationship between the school, and they were mostly private schools in those days, between the parents was direct and there was a close interest and if the parents were not satisfied with the school they gave a term’s notice and transferred their children to another school. There was a certain amount of transfers and for a variety of reasons. And, some headmasters had a reputation for a particular slant on education and so on. But it was largely the private schools, it was largely a development of
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the desire on behalf of parents to give their children a better education than they had, and they were able to do so by the prosperity of which prevailed in the country. Now that didn’t eliminate poverty, it didn't eliminate the whole areas where people couldn't afford education but it was a development and I would say a general improvement in the body politic which had led to a great development in the education of young people, until now. Yes. To use Macmillan’s phrase ‘They have never had it so good’ But 1 don’t think they appreciate it, appreciate their opportunities as much as we would have done had we had a chance.
True. You tend to take for granted what's always been there don't you? It's a great shame but still. As I was saying, did the neighbours help if someone was ill, or someone died or was confined?
R - Well you see, as far a St Annes was concerned it was little more than a village. It had only been established 25 years when we came to live here, and there was a friendly atmosphere. I don't recall any specific case where one neighbour came to the help of another but there was a general good will amongst the people in the town. Right.
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Did they do much borrowing?
R - Borrowing?
Yes.
R- Well, this is a rather interesting question. There wasn’t a lot but there are people who form the habit of spending as they go and then relying on kindly neighbours to help them out when they'd shortages, but there wasn't a lot of that kind of thing and, to a large extent it’s a matter of training and temperament.
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Did you have much visiting by neighbours?
R - Well it all depends what you mean by such, but in those days, latter Victorian days, there was a convention of ladies calling upon each other and presenting their cards and having afternoon tea parties which were very pleasant occasions and it gave the ladies the opportunity of a good gossip.
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It certainly did yes. On those occasions would they be invited or did they just, as you say, present their cards?
R- Well in the first place they’d present their cards, but I think that, as matters developed there would be little parties arranged for future occasions.
At homes.
R - At homes. That's it yes.
With the cucumber sandwiches.
R - Yes, that’s right.
Yes. This is perhaps directed at a different, for want of a better word, sector of society, the business of neighbours chattering to each other on door steps, can you remember that particularly?
R- Well, there weren't sufficient houses.
No.
R - You see building plots were taken by builders in different parts of the town, and they would build according to what they thought saleable and suitable. So there wasn’t the mass of people as you get in industrial towns since they have been developed. So the circumstances are rather different from that question.
Yes. They are indeed. Do you remember any poor children in the neighbourhood? And were they treated any differently?
R – Yes, there were, there were some families where they had large number of children and where the father, there was only one wage
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coming in, and the mother was hard put to it to provide for the children but that's always happening, and there was no welfare state. But there were charitable people about, most of the churches had what was known as a poor fund, where the clergymen or minister, knowing of cases of hardship, would provide the cash for the family to tide it over the difficult period. And somehow or other we got through you see?
What kind of families were thought of as being particularly rough?
R- Well, to a large extent it depended upon their previous education. Now, rough jobs were done by navvies, who came over from Ireland. Likewise the hay makers came over from Ireland. Speaking generally, they were illiterate. Some of them settled in the area and, generally speaking, were on the poverty line. But they got through.
Would you be able to decide which kind of families were regarded as being respectable?
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R - Those who paid their way.
That's an excellent answer. Yes. This next question, I don't think would probably apply to St Annes but do you remember any soup kitchens? Soup kitchens?
R- No, not in St Annes.
And Darwen?
R - I've heard of them but, what I remember particularly with a regard to poverty, was the Irish potato famine. And families collected money for the purpose and at Darwen I remember taking my family Saturday pennies to the offices of the Darwen Advertiser which were the headquarters for collecting funds for the Irish famine. This was before 1900.
[The Great Famines were between 1845 and 1850. Perhaps there were later failures of the crop]
Yes. You say you remember them, so there was one in Darwen you think was there? Soup kitchen?
R - Well not to my knowledge but I have read of them of course so I can’t give evidence, it's irrelevant
Oh I see, yes. So in fact your family wasn't involved in helping.
R - No.
Do you know anything about the old workhouse?
R- Yes, I remember the workhouse for the Fylde being built at Kirkham just after the turn of the century but when I removed to Blackburn I do remember the buildings of the workhouse. But what I do remember is the horror in the minds of people having to be sent to the workhouse. Now this instigated
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all kinds of improvements to help society. There were savings clubs, there were burial societies, the sick and burial societies and there were friendly societies formed largely in the Victorian era to assist people who in their later years met with a misfortune or who had been unable to save. And there was in society generated a good will towards those who’d fallen by the wayside. It didn’t cover everybody but it was a development in society before Lloyd George introduced the pensions in 1909 and the Labour Exchanges which were generally speaking the foundation of the Welfare State.
That's right, yes.
R - But in my early days these various voluntary organisations may be said to be a run up to the state provision, and eventually many of them were taken over you see?
Have you got any personal memories of this dread that you spoke of earlier?
R - This what?
Dread.
R- Oh yes. I remember being in conversation with people and they had a fear, indeed it was a dread of losing their independence, of losing their own homes and being sent to the workhouse. Now the workhouse methods were very primitive, the men had standardised clothing of a poor quality, likewise the women they had standardised frocks, bonnets, and aprons. And all that could be said was that they were kept alive you see? With, in a very primitive fashion.
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You didn’t actually know anyone who…
R - No.
No. Can you remember how widows managed to make a living?
R - Yes. By taking in washing, by going out to help in homes, sometimes doing sewing and generally helping in domestic matters.
Did you have any relations living near by you who could help your family if someone was ill?
R - No.
Not even when you were in Darwen?
R - No. No we hadn't. They couldn’t be, no they couldn’t, my grandmother died when I wan four, left my grandfather a widower. He had a spinster sister who kept house for him in his later years, but they weren’t in a position to help.
940 min)(850)
When did you see any of your relations?
R - When did I see them?
Yes.
R – Well I used to call in occasionally on my way down to school, call in to see my grandfather and that's about it. The others had left the town, you see?
Yes I see, yes. What social class do you think your family belonged to?
R- Well in those days we never thought of class distinctions. I know nowadays it’s one method of grading society but we weren't class conscious as at present understood. It’s difficult to define, but if there was any classification it was those who were in work, and employed and those who were self employed. And, speaking generally, it was the desire of operatives to become employers in one form or another. And, to a large degree, it was a question of self help and opportunity. Of course we were aware that some
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people were better off than our family, and we were aware that other people were not as well off, but apart from a desire to improve our lot I don’t recall any envious eyes or jealousy because other people were better off. But we all hoped to be better, a little better, as opportunity came our way, and that's summed it up.
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Yes. Do you think generally speaking people did not think along lines of class? Do you know, that the class consciousness was not evident, or was it something that just your family encouraged?
R - Well, no, they didn’t, no, class consciousness is developed by politicians largely through Marxism.
It’s an interesting point that actually.
R - Yes. Well I don't want to embark on a hypothetical exercise at this particular moment, I want notice but I think that's a fair statement that when I say people were contented with their lot, they accepted their lot in life as they found themselves but they had a desire to improve and they made the effort then they had the opportunity. With the result that this country developed by leaps and bounds up to 1914 when the Great War came and upset everything. I was going to say, it became the watershed of a different way of life.
Do you think it would be fair to say that up to 1914 the principle of self help was indeed very evident?
R - It was. Oh yes. You see now self help isn't, doesn’t mean selfishness. Self help means self improvement. You see?
Oh yes, Samuel Smiles.
R - Samuel Smiles yes. He was a great power, by inspiring young men to develop their abilities. Now, I can say this, that several successful men in the social life of the town of Blackburn told me that they owed their success to having learnt shorthand after leaving school with the result that they were often called upon in emergencies to take down notes for somebody in authority, and as such, those in authority found the young men who had taken shorthand were very knowledgeable and so they got their opportunity. That’s just one line of development. What do you want me to say?
Did you know anyone from other social classes.
R - Well as I said earlier on, we didn't recognise social classes. We were conscious that some people were not as well off as ourselves and we were not as well off as others but in the social life of the town, we mixed with one another. We took part in games, we took part in our Church life and we didn’t think of distinctions.
SCG/09 June 2003.
3,220 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/16
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON MARCH THE 9th 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
What kind of jobs did the men in your street have Mr Singleton?
R - Well now, at what period of my life?
Well I think we’ll take the Darwen because as you have said, St Annes was more like a village and it’s more difficult to do.
R – Yes. Well now, I was nine and a half when I left Darwen, but after I set up in practice on my own account in 1922 in Blackburn I was remembered by a number of Darwen people who were good enough to
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instruct me in some cases to look after their work. So, it helped with my memory of the early days. Now you asked me what kind of work did the…
Men in your street.
R – Yes. Well, I lived in Belgrave Road at the top of a hill. Now at the bottom was a wallpaper printing works, then going up the hill on either side were cottages with gardens which were a step above the rows of cottages in the town without gardens. Then at the top where I lived, was the beginning of a larger type of house, although terraced houses. The people who lived in those were professional people - I remember an architect, a works manager, a works secretary, an engineer, a cotton manufacturer and so on. So that natural selection played its part in so far as those who were able to afford a larger house were able to obtain, them and live there.
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Just completely, a thought that's just come to me - did you have a system, sort of mortgages then?
R - No. There were certain societies which helped financially in the purchase of houses, one comes to mind was known an the Star Bowkett, B o w k e t t, but of the details I don’t know. There were mortgages but done privately, on fixed terms, for a fixed term of years and for a fixed rate of interest. But the Building Society mortgage as we know it today was none existent. But at any rate, I wasn’t aware of it.
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So in fact, most people were, would be…
R - They saved up sufficient money to pay for their own house.
Outright?
R - Outright yes.
Yes, that's interesting. Now in your, the previous answer, you gave some indication of the sort of natural selection and types of housing in the, with gardens and without. What was thought of as the rough streets in your area?
R - What?
What was thought of as the rough streets?
R – Well, rough streets so called were in the centre of the town because Darwen is in the shape of a valley, and the early development naturally was in the centre. And I think I've said earlier that the trades which developed in the town were the cotton mills and calico printing works and wallpaper works, relying on water from the surrounding hills.
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Yes. So they were, they were in the valley bottom.
R – That’s right. Well now, the early operatives were reinforced by people coming in from different parts of the country. And my grandfather informed me that his father came from Poulton le FyIde and I gather had been attracted by another man who'd left Poulton le Fylde earlier for Darwen you see? Well when you say rough, I suppose you mean houses with few facilities. Well, in the early days there was no piped water. I have already referred, either with you or with Stanley, to they the old pail closet system…
Oh yes.
R - .. being converted to water. Well naturally the houses with poor accommodation were occupied by people who were on relatively low wages.
Would you say that the rougher, poorer or whatever streets were synonymous with age, and in fact the older streets in the oldest parts of the town were for want of a better word, less salubrious?
(10 min)
R – Yes.
On the typical growth pattern of a town, that suburbia or the outlying parts where the… yes…
R - Gradually you see, this is a, a town in effect is a living organism and as opportunity arises it stretches out and with transport
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facilities, people lived further away from their employment. Until now we have got a highly sophisticated society relying on motorcars.
That’s true. So the better streets, or the better parts of town were the outskirts.
R – Yes.
Who wore considered to be the most important people in the town and why?
R - Well I would say the doctor and the employers. The doctors because of their ability to relieve pain and restore health to people and the employers for their efforts in bringing business to the town and then providing employment.
Where do you think the teachers came?
R - Oh yes the teachers were respected but they were if you like, a step below the medical profession. They weren't regarded as so important.
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But nevertheless, there was a regard for education and as people realised the advantages of, and as I have already said, it was the aim and object of parents to give their children a better education than they had.
Yes. What did the children in your area think about the police?
R - About what?
The police.
R - The police. Well, they treated them with a certain amount of awe and respect, but at the same time they never missed an opportunity of poking fun at them.
In what ways? Can you remember?
R - Well there was a jingle “I wish I was a bobby, dressed in bobby’s clothes, a big tall hat, and a belly full of fat, and a pimple on his nose.” Eh, I forgot. That’s come back over eighty years.
And did you sing it?
R - Of course we did. We used to go about the streets.
Oh come on then. Let's hear it.
R – No, we used to go about the streets as youngsters you know, singing jingles and little songs, enjoying ourselves, but…
That’s a lovely one, lovely! Oh I wish you’d sing it for me. Can you remember any more like that?
R - No, not off the record, but that just came spontaneously from the reserves.
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Well you see what you have got stored up there? Yes. Did, you presumably had one policeman, like the sort of village policeman did you?
R - Oh, now then, in Darwen of course there was a police force you see but in St. Annes there was only one that I recall. Or may have been two, but there was a sergeant in charge of a small station you see?
So he would be well known wouldn't he?
R - Oh yes. And highly regarded. What shall I say? The offences in those days were relatively small, there weren’t the number of offenders that there are today. There was greater respect for authority and the effect of Christian religion told its tale. I think I said that the bulk of the children would attend some form of Sunday School whereby they were taught to behave, to respond to good conduct and so on, which created an atmosphere whereby we expected people not to break the law
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But there have been big changes since that relatively simple life. Things have got very complicated but we had not the distractions that there are today. We children got our homework to do, and then to play as we wished either individually or mostly in groups and we enjoyed our life accordingly.
How did the police treat the children?
R - Oh, with a certain amount of paternalism, speaking generally they were very kindly.
Would they know your names?
R- No I wouldn't say they got that far because there were rather more… But they had their own field of operation, they didn't deliberately mix with us, but we knew who the police were and treated them with respect.
They were still paternal even after you had sang your little rhyme to them?
R - Oh no, they didn’t hear that.
I’m sure they knew though. Which parts of the town did you go to regularly other than your home area?
R - The park. That's about all. Oh, and the market.
Would that, how often did that take place?
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R - We had no fixed plan, it was just as occasion arose.
Was there anybody, whether they were of a different religion or foreigners, whom your parents preferred their children not to marry?
R - Not to?
Marry.
R- Oh yes. The Protestants had an aversion against marrying into Roman Catholicism and vice versa. Yes. Apart from that I don't think there was any other shall we say hindrance.
No. And that was a common view as well as yours, a view held by your parents, was it? Yes.
R - Oh yes it was.
Yes. Do you remember anyone being called a real gentleman or a real lady?
R - Well, it depends in which part of my life. I'm familiar with the expression so there must have been people held in esteem in that way you see? And I recall remarks such an ‘being ladylike’ and so on. But such qualities were genuinely given to people who respected, shall we say the
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lower grade of society. And indeed there were many good natured ladies and gentlemen who of their time and substance gave to objects for the benefit of those not so fortunate. Indeed, that was the essence of Victorian society.
Yes. Right well, we'll move on a little bit further now and discuss matters of health. Did your family have any special cures for illnesses?
R- For illnesses. I don't recall except that mother made her own cough mixture for the family.
Yes, I think you mentioned that earlier on.
R - I don’t recall anything other than that, not special.
No. Did your family have to call the doctor very often?
R - Not very often. No, as a family we had got good health but there were children’s diseases you know, we passed through the lot I think. And the doctor was called in of course. Now the doctor was a real support of society, everybody relied on their doctor.
Yes. When your aunt was ill you perhaps saw quite a lot of him then.
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R- Oh yes. But what could he do? Have I told you what the … You see?
Yes you have, yes.
R - They did their best.
Yes, it was really a matter of relieving rather than … yes.
R - Oh yes. That's all, that's all. And indeed the relief was of a doubtful quality because, being alcohol, it brought other reactions than the numbing of pain you see?
Yes quite. Can you remember your family finding it difficult to pay the doctor?
(25 min)
R- Well, normally no, but in the incidence of business I do remember my father having made a bad investment in connection with his business which seriously affected his income for a number of years. (That’ll do won’t it?)
Yes. Did your family belong to a friendly society? You mentioned them before.
R – No.
No. And you, presumably your father wouldn’t receive any money from a trade union if he was sick because presumably he didn't belong to one, did he?
R – No. He didn’t belong to one no.
When it came into operation, was your father covered by the Lloyd George scheme?
R - No, he was self-employed.
That's what I thought yes. Did your family belong to a hospital scheme?
R – No.
Or did they pay for death, family, or funeral insurance?
R – No. No you see, I know the idea behind those two questions but people who were employed and on a limited wage or income joined such societies for their mutual benefit and to avoid the effects of sudden illness or tragedies taking place in their lives, so that there was a distinction between people who operated on their own account and people who were employed.
Yes, quite.
R- Now if I may say here, people operating on their own account had been classified an private enterprise. Well now, to my mind that is a misnomer, because there is no such thing as private enterprise. If your enterprise has to be successful you must be in contact with other people and you must supply a service or goods which they are wanting.
Quite.
R - So I prefer the description of a person [who is] self-employed as being of the category of direct responsibility.
Obviously your coined expression.
R - It is. And I thought about it for some time. But it is a better description of the facts of life concerning self-employment.
Yes. It certainly makes you very distinct from those companies where they have shareholders, and therefore responsibility is not direct of course.
R- Quite.
Yes. And likewise I suppose you can almost apply it to private education, as well where the term of course is also sort of misleading.
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R - Yes it is misleading. We can't live a private life. We have periods of privacy admittedly but man is a social animal putting it crudely and he lives by performing a service in one form or another which is mutual.
That’s right yes. Coming back to health, did anyone in the family have any operation at home?
R - No.
It's just as well I think. My great aunt tells a very gory tale of a rapid operation she had to have at home on the kitchen table.
R – Yes.
Were the babies in the family born at home?
R - Yes.
Can you remember any of your brothers and sisters being born?
R- Yes.
What sort of happened in the house can you remember?
R - Yes. I remember being wakened in the middle of the night, wrapped up and carried to a neighbour's house.
So that, presumably you…
R- And taken to a bedroom. Yes, quite.
And instructed to go back to sleep again. That would be so that you weren't aware of the toings and froings, and they …
R - Well it wasn’t so much that as out of the way, you see? There would be a noise, the baby would cry, waken the children and what were the children going to do while the doctor and the nurse were busy, occupied with the mother? So obviously it was a sensible way to unload the family.
Quite. So you had both a doctor and a midwife did you, in attendance?
R - Yes when available but 1 remember on one occasion I believe I had to go for the midwife. We called her a nurse in those days. Nurse Saunders name is coming back to me. But where possible the doctor and the midwife were in attendance you see?
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Can you remember whether the nurse was trained?
R - Trained? Oh she was trained in a practical manner by previous midwives. There were no…
By a sort of apprenticeship?
R - Oh now, a kind of apprenticeship, they were what shall I say, as a little boy I would think they were a kind of a secret trade. A mysterious secret trade. But they were taught by or they picked it up by being with an experienced midwife.
Were there any diseases which your family particularly dreaded catching?
R – Well I wouldn’t say particularly dreaded, but it was accepted that children went through the usual routine of measles, whooping cough what other things are there?
Chicken pox?
R – Chicken pox and that kind of thing. I don't know that they were dreaded, they weren’t wanted but they were in a sense expected.
Am I right in thinking that scarlet fever was particularly….
R – Yes, scarlet fever, yes. Yes now, scarlet fever was regarded as the worst, and sometimes whooping cough. Oh, typhoid was another that occasionally cropped up. Well, you say dreaded, it's…
It’s a bit strong.
R - Aye it's a bit strong for young children but we picked up certain things, we had to be careful and we had to do this, that and the other. But where children are playing together and there is a certain infectious disease, there is no escape from it you see?
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No. But you had no recollection say of your mother sort of keeping you in if she knew there was an epidemic of something that she wasn’t particularly keen on you catching?
R - Well she exercised every precaution if it was known that a certain infectious disease was in a certain family. Well we had to avoid that family for the time being. Things like that.
Did you know any children who had had rickets?
R - No but I've seen them.
11ave you?
R - In the towns. Yes thin legs, bent knees and the general effects of malnutrition you see?
Knees that wouldn't straighten in other words?
R - That's right, Oh yes.
It must be ghastly. If your mother was not able to feed her babies herself how did she feed them?
R - Well she did feed them herself and supplemented by the special feeds of the day. Melling’s Food was one.
The powder milk. Like we still have today?
R - Yes, the powder yes.
Yes. Was your mother particular about disinfecting the house and catching flies, and things like this?
R - Oh yes, it was a regular thing to have the sticky fly catchers hanging from the ceiling, or from gas jet lamp or something like that.
Yes. And presumably you had things like meat safes and things like that in the pantry because of the flies.
R – Yes.
And the fly swatter.
R - Yes that’s right. Oh the flies were dreaded. Now if it comes to dreading anything, it was the flies.
Really?
R - Yes. Well of course, they were known to be carriers of disease. Yes.
Right, moving on again, to work. We have already discussed your father’s job but perhaps we can look at it in a little bit more detail where you can remember. What hours did he work?
R - Well, he left home to catch the quarter to eight train in the morning and he got back about half past six at night.
Yes Darwen to…
R- Darwen to St Annes.
To St Annes?
R- Yes.
Oh I see yes. You wouldn't of course have any idea … just
R- Oh well, before we removed, well of course he kept ordinary office hours but his business took him to different parts of the county, and consequently his hours were somewhat irregular.
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You wouldn't have any idea of the sort of income he had would you?
R - No. No, but he, in the first 15 years of his business on his own account, he was successful, and he had saved sufficient capital to be able to continue his independence but then he made a bad investment.
Yes…
R- To which I have already referred.
When would that be about?
R – 1904. Which affected the family fortune adversely, very much so.
For quite a few years?
R- Oh yes. It took us, it took him several years to recover and in the meantime it was short commons. And that’s that. Leave it at that.
Yes. Would you know whether things improved after 1918 as far his trade was concerned, or his job?
R – Well, it improved for few years due to shortages, but then after
three or four years, the immediate cause of the shortages after the war were removed and so his business declined. You see, it was dealing in second hand machinery and so that the law of supply and demand governed his reserves of business.
(40 min)
How many staff did he have?
R -A book keeper and dismantlers, machinery dismantlers.
Yes. And haw did, how on earth did he transport it all?
R - Well, he hired wagons and so that when machinery was removed from one place to another, his men prepared it for transport, supervised the loading and then the offloading and the placing in the new premises.
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And would these be horse-drawn wagons?
R - Ob no by this time they were motor vehicles, mostly after the war.
Yes. Oh after the war yes. Can you remember, or would you know, if he paid his staff for holidays?
R - I wouldn’t think so. The payment for holidays developed after the first world war.
And would you know whether his staff had any part-time jobs as well as the ...
R - No they hadn’t.
Did your father or his staff ever have any accidents at work?
P. - Do you mean physical? Occasional but non fatal
Or serious.
R- No, non disablement, nobody was disabled, not for a long period.
No. So the question of compensation never came up. No.
R- Oh no.
So in fact you wouldn’t know whether your father would have paid it or not.
R – No, he might have done something, but I don’t suppose he’d have thought to have paid a full wage. It wasn’t, but he looked after his men of course. There you are.
He was rewarded by their service. Yes.
R - Loyalty you see, loyal support.
Yes. Would you know much about the Board of Guardians?
R - I know name of them but I’d no reason to enquire into their immediate duties. I knew what they did, they controlled the workhouse and they carried out the duties of the Poor Law. They also had the, I think it was a branch of the Guardians appointed the panel to adjust the rateable values.
Oh yes?
R – Yes, at any rate they met in the offices of the board of Guardians and I think there was some connection.
And, were there any other charities who would give relief or help to families?
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R - Well there were private charities, and there were, as I have already said, poor funds associated with churches, administered by the minister who called on members you see? Now, in cases of public misfortunes there were very often ad-hoc committees appointed to deal with collecting funds you see.
Yes. Something that affected the whole town or part of the town yes?
R- Yes. But apart from that, it was the custom in the works and mills, where employees met with misfortune of one kind or another that their work mates made a collection and handed over the proceeds to the unfortunates. And I always thought that was a very representative form of the good will that prevailed in those days for the benefit of people having what shall we say, hard luck either by way of health or accident or something of that kind. Yes.
Yes.
R- There was a charitable streak in society in those days.
Implying that…
R - Well…
Yes all right.
R- They can draw what conclusions they like.
Yes. Did your father’s staff belong to a trade union?
R- Oh no, there was no need. Oh no.
No. No. Did you...
R - Have I ever told you about the trade union of my grandfather?
I don’t think so.
R - Oh well. The Darwen Winders Weavers and Warpers, oh, the Darwen Weavers Winders and Warpers Association was formed in my grandfather’s cottage, if you please. So that, and he was an ardent Methodist and indeed many of the pioneers in the Trade Union Movement were members of churches.
SCG/10 June 2003
4,019 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/17
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON MARCH THE 9th 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
R - Well, continuing the subject of Trade Unions, to my mind they were formed to deal with the injustice in the terms of employment. Not only wages but conditions and hours, and so on you see? Now, I want to emphasise the word injustice, it wasn't just cash it was the whole set of circumstances. Now, and it was the injustice which appealed to the Christian tradition. Now, things have changed, and the opposition to injustice
(50)
has developed to a self-interest for a particular group. Now this indicates a very important change in society and unfortunately, to its detriment because farther injustice is being made, and society is now suffering from the self-interest or selfishness of certain trade unions. In other words, the pendulum has swung too far the other way and therefore it will need an effort to restore the balance in society. It’s disgraceful that human suffering should be used as buffer for the self-interest of hospital workers, it is really shameful. And I think society, society will turn against it, but it takes time to make these adjustments.
(100)
Did you have any part-time job before you started full-time work?
R - No.
What job did you get when you left school?
R - I became an office boy at a cotton spinning mill in Blackburn.
And what year would that be that you started?
R – 1906.
And you went straight on to full-time, did you?
R - Yes.
Yes. Why did you choose that job?
R – Well, that's a leading and interesting question, but by this time the cotton trade had been so well established that it became the object of the young men of the day to follow in the parents occupation in the cotton trade. Of course, as you will appreciate, there are quite a variety of work and services in the cotton trades, it wasn’t just simply being set to mind some machinery, there was a whole range of services from elementary to complicated management and so on. Well, do you want me to go on from there?
(150)(5 min)
Yes do.
R - Well that was the cause of the family leaving St Annes to go to Blackburn and I joined the technical school as it was then called. And to give you an indication of the interest that at the beginning of the first year 80 students gathered from the town and surrounding towns which will indicate the interest in the cotton trade.
And would the boys all be about your age?
R - Well, they varied in age. I was probably the youngest.
You were about 17 weren't you?
R – 16.
Sixteen yes.
R - And probably the oldest would be 21 or 2. The head of the department was a Mr Henry Neville who had made some reputation as an author of cotton weaving and being one of two delegates from the Blackburn Chamber of Commerce to its mission to China in 1898 I think. So he was considered an authority, and he was also a little dapper man and an obvious target for
(250)
teenagers who attended the classes in their spare time. So whenever they could, they took liberties. But he was a good man and he organised the department very satisfactorily, we had diagrams of the machines and we had instructions as to calculations, and there was a weaving shed with a variety of looms for the manufacture of a variety of cloth so that it was a comprehensive education on cotton weaving.
And how often did you attend?
R – Oh, three times a week.
In the evening?
R - In the evening. I think it was seven o'clock to nine o'clock, there were two hourly sessions, one was the practical and another was art you
(10min)(300)
see for design and pattern, and so on. So the subject was divided into three, a practical, and the art, and then the - what shall I call the ...
Theory?
R - The theory, that's it.
And you did that three times a week you said? Yes. And so presumably when you began as an office boy your intention was to…
R – Improve.
Learn the trade, not just stay in the office.
R - Learn the trade and improve my assets shall we say – yes.
Now this wasn't your father's firm though, was it?
R - No.
What hours did you work during the day?
R - Eight O’clock till half past five.
With an hour for lunch?
R- With an hour for lunch yes.
Can you remember what pay you got?
R – Yes, five shillings per week, which was a standard going rate for office boys.
So you thought that was a fair wage in fact yes.
R - Oh yes, it didn't matter whether you went to a solicitor’s office, or what, the going rate was five shillings for an office boy.
How much did you give to your mother?
R- The lot.
Oh good for you. How did your employer treat you?
R - They treated me very well as far as treatment was concerned. You see, in the office there were two senior clerks and the secretary, and a
(350)
salesman, and then in the mill itself there was a manager you see? Then there were heads of departments known as, for instance the man in charge of the cotton opening machinery was known as the blow room major, delightful title. And then there was the carder in charge of the card room and the spinning master in charge of the ring frames, which were, that was the method of spinning at that mill and then the winding master who had charge of the finishing department, you see, into either beams, skips or ball warps or cheeses, whatever was required.
Wool warp?
R - Ball, b a 1 l ball warp.
Oh yes. What other jobs did you do after your first job, up to 1930?
R- Well, I left the spinning mill by mutual arrangement with the secretary, and went to help my father.
When was that?
R- Oh about six mouths after.
(400)
Of the same year? Yes?
R - The same year. And meanwhile I attended the technical college, or technical school, and over the years proceeded to quality and get my certificate for cotton weaving. In the course of helping my father I did his office work and went out on inspection with him to see machinery and then he, as an extra, started a beaming business, along with the yarn agent and it was rather a one sided affair because my father took the responsibility for carrying out the work whereas the agent supplied the yarn and found the customers. Well then I was the secretary for this company sending out the accounts and dealing with the orders and so on.
When did he start that business?
R – 1908. But it was relatively short lived, I think it lasted no more
(450)
than 18 months because it was an ancillary trade, and when trade was good there was the demand for extra beams but when trade was bad the small companies were the first to lose their business you see? Anyhow, it served a temporary purpose. And then in 1910 I was introduced to the Blackburn Manufacturing Co. Ltd, of Moorbrook Mill, Blackburn who wanted a mill manager. And I got the appointment, at the age of 20.
I was going to say, and had you got your certificate by then?
R – Yes.
And that was a weaving shop was it.
R - Weaving, yea, It was owned by two brothers Hugh Barton and Robert Barton who basically were cotton-waste merchants so this was an extra investment and they wanted somebody to manage it for them you see? Well I suppose they were attracted by the fact that I was prepared to take a small salary, I won’t tell you how much it was.
(500)
Oh won’t you? Oh well ...
R - I don’t think so at this stage, at any rate we'll see. As far as cotton mills go, it was one of the early ones and small. It had 361 looms, 44 inch and 50 inch widths and the cloth woven was known as mole dhooties for the Indian market.
What sort of cloth was it?
R - It was a fine cloth with coloured borders for wearing - I think they call them saris - you see?
Yes, that’s right. So it would you liken it to a cotton lawn?
(20 min)
R – Yes. The specification of the yarn was 60s twist and 80's weft, you see? Which, which produces a very light pleasing fabric yes. Well that's what we made.
And how long did you work for them?
(500)
R - About two and a half years, it was a very interesting experience. I think I got on well with the operatives in fact I'm sure I did. And they treated me with a certain amount of curiosity, being a young man but I always endeavoured to be fair with them and I must say I enjoyed the experience. It was hard going because in those days we worked 53 ½ hours per week starting at eight o’clock in the morning and finishing at half past five with breaks of half an hour for breakfast and one hour for dinner and on Saturdays till half past twelve - or was it twelve o’clock? – Yes, one period, half an hour, was taken off for Saturday morning, I think for one reason that was so the male population could attend the football matches and cricket matches you see?
[George has his times wrong, they don’t add up. I think he meant half past six in the morning and not eight o’clock.]
Yes well, in the course of my duties I had to keep the books, the account books, to prepare the particulars for warping and arranging delivery times for the production. And (I have got a photograph of it.) being one of the older mills, we did not get the quality of the staff that some of the modern mills had because they could earn more money at the larger mills Nevertheless, we’d quite a - shall we say - a happy party because many of them lived near by and found it very convenient and indeed there was a spirit of camaraderie in the mill in the sense that we all had to work hard. Because getting to work for six o'clock on a cold winter morning was no joke. We relied upon the engine tenter who also stoked the boilers, the boiler, one boiler, on being there at least half an hour beforehand to get the steam through the beating pipes. And occasionally, but not often, the trip gear on the engine would fail, and the engine would race
(25 min)
away made worse by all the looms being stopped and the shafting rattling away at high speed. It was a frightening experience and the operatives rightly used to rush out of the mill when it happened.
Why did the looms stop?
R - Well because they were going too fast you see?
And they just cut out did they?
R - They cut out, that's right.
[Actually the weavers stopped the looms before they ran out in order to save having time and wage consuming smashes.]
Ah I see, yes. I should think it was a ghastly experience.
R- Yes, it was.
What did the tenter have to do? Did he have to stop the engine and start again?
R - Oh yes, stop it and start again that's right yes.
Oh I see yes.
R - Occasionally we had complaints for bad yarn or cops which were difficult to skewer on the shuttles. And I remember on one occasion receiving a deputation of weavers to complain but it so happened, oh and amongst the complaints were that “We can't earn a proper wage because our looms keep stopping on account of the faulty yarn.” But as it happens one of the deputation was one of the best weavers in the mill and normally he could earn 10% more than the average wages, how he did I don’t know but he was paid on piece work and he did. So, I turned to him and asked him what he was getting, so when he disclosed the amount to the deputation it quietly dispersed because he was not suffering you see and the idea was “Well, if he can manage we ought to manage.”
Even though he had been in the original deputation?
R – Yes.
Oh that was very diplomatically done.
R - Well it was a stroke of luck as far as that was concerned. We hadn’t many rows but we had no rows, we had complaints, legitimately, which were investigated but they were considered on their merits and dealt with accordingly.
Where did the yarn come from?
(700)
R - The spinners, various spinners. Now sometimes the yarn from one mill was a better quality than the yarn of another. It was difficult, you couldn’t foretell, it depended upon the conditions in that particular mill you see, and the quality of cotton they were using. So matters like that arose occasionally you see?
So you didn’t in fact have regular supplies.
R - Well, we bought the yarn according to fulfil the orders, you see?
Of course, yes of course.
R - And, when an order was booked, a cloth was ordered, then it was customary to cover the yarn required, by buying from spinners at the then market price. Otherwise you ran the risk of the market going the wrong way in which case you would have incurred a lose. So the custom, and a wise custom, was to cover, because you take your order in the expectation of a certain amount of profit you see?
(30 min)
Yes. How many weavers did you have under you? Because you mentioned 361 looms?
R - Well, they were mostly four loom weavers, I should think we have between 110 and 120 weavers. And then we had three tacklers, three men and a boy in the warehouse, a tape sizer, and a labourer. A coloured warper, that means to say a warper who warped coloured yarns. Three other plain warpers and about ten winders.
(750)
Did you do the checking?
R - Yes. Yes, I was responsible for the production going smoothly, for the cloth orders being delivered to time and the right quality, and so on. So anything that came in I had to see that it was the right quality, as you say - checking - what is known as general management. It was quite an interesting experience and it was hard going but nevertheless it had its rewards, particularly in the, with the friendship of the people.
And you were there for, you mentioned two and a half years.
R - About two, two and a half years. Well, I remember one day my father came home and in the course of the evening he said he’d met a friend of his - an auctioneer and valuer in Manchester, who was in need of a an assistant with some knowledge of textile machinery and he asked me if I knew of anybody so that he could introduce them. Whereupon I said yes in answer to his question, and he said “Who?” and I said “Me”! As simple as that, instinctively I saw an opportunity of improving my chances in life because I couldn't see any other future for me in the mill than my present occupation. And as it turned out, oh my father arranged the interview, and I was appointed and I had no regrets, because the knowledge I had acquired at the technical school and with my father inspecting machinery in different parts of the county and at the mill itself came in very useful. And it didn’t take me long to understand what was required and I’ve never regretted the move.
Well done. Did you have to go to Manchester?
(35 min) (800)
R- Yes.
To begin with? Yes.
R – Yes.
And how long did you work for that firm? Did you mention their name?
R – Yes, F.S. Airie, Entwistle and Co. I joined the firm at the beginning of the partnership, previous to which Mr Airie had been in practice on his own for two years.
And you joined them in what, 1913 did you?
R - 1912.
1912.
R - August 1st.
And you returned to them after the war?
R - Well then I was with them until I joined the army in 1916. I was the last of the family to join the army as three of, being the eldest of the family and the bread winner. My three brothers joined early, one in September 1914 and two in January 1915. But I joined the Derby Scheme, that is to say I was a volunteer to be called up when required but in the event I heard there was an opening in the Royal Engineers and so, by which time I was studying Municipal Engineering at Manchester Technical College and
(850)
so a friend and I decided to join which we did.
So you joined up in 1916?
R - Yes
With your friend? And for how long did you serve?
R - Until the end of the war.
Until the end. And then did you return to F.S. Airie and Entwistle?
R – Yes.
Still travelling from Blackburn to Manchester?
R - Yes.
That was a fairly early get up then, in the morning?
R - Yes it was, I got the eight o'clock train.
And did you sort of get any promotion or progress career wise with this company in the years you were with them?
R -Well yes. You see the clients used to ask the firm to undertake their requirements. Now, how shall I put it, the professional work was of making valuations and conducting sale by auctions to industry was similar to the medical profession to human beings, that's the nearest comparison I can make because it was a service to people with problems concerning their plant and machinery. And factories, buildings, and also when they had served their purpose with that particular firm their disposal to the best advantage. In other words a surgical operation.
Yes. It's a very good - what's the word - simile?
R - Simile.
Yes. Your particular knowledge and experience was presumably used when they had mills on their books.
R - Oh yes, oh well, yes it stood me in good stead because when owners
(900)
of factories sought advice, my experience with the mill machinery gave me an understanding of the requirements. In other words I was able to make an appropriate diagnosis.
So anyway you were a sort of a consultant for the firm you worked for, and in fact for the clients.
R - That's right. That's right.
Yes. And presumably at the same time, managed to keep yourself completely up to date with the world of weaving.
R – Yes well you see I then went to these mills, a great variety and found it extremely interesting. It extended my knowledge of the trade and I was able to apply the principles which 1 had learnt to the immediate requirements of the client.
And how long did you work for F.S. Airie and Entwistle?
R - Until I commenced practice on my own account in August 1922.
So you worked for them for exactly eight years then, didn't you.
R - Ten years.
Ten years.
R - Less war service.
Ten years, I’m sorry. Yes, that's right. Because you started with them in August didn't you? You started with them in August.
R - Yes that’s right.
Right we will, we’ll come back to you setting up your own firm, and
R – Later.
Yes, that’s right. Then you had mentioned that you did your City and Guilds training at the technical school.
R - Yes.
Did you serve any other apprenticeship or do any other kind of training besides that?
R – No.
No. You mentioned that in fact you were doing an engineering course were you at Manchester when you got…
R- Municipal engineering.
Oh yes.
R - Yes well that was after I had left the mill.
Yes, I see. You didn’t belong to a Trade Union every did you?
R- No.
What jobs did your brothers and sisters do? I know you have mentioned one or two of them as we have gone along, but perhaps if we can specify them all here.
R – Well, my eldest sister after leaving school became a shop assistant but she had a strong inclination for teaching and so, when the war came, she applied and entered Dudley Training College and qualified, and that was her career from then on.
(950)
Then my next sister, after leaving school, stayed on at home helping with the domestic duties which were considerable with a family. But eventually she took up a nursing career and in which she remained until her retirement. My next brother on leaving school joined a firm
(40 min)
of wholesale tea merchants, and then he joined the forces in January 1915. My next brother was an apprentice engineer for a period and then left to become an assistant with an ironmongery firm from which he left to join the forces in September 1914.
SCG/10 June 2003
3,656 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/SA/18
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON MARCH THE 9th 1979 AT YORK HOUSE, THE HOME OF THE INFORMANT ON LINKS ROAD, ST ANNES ON SEA. THE INFORMANT IS GEORGE FORRESTER SINGLETON, RETIRED SENIOR PARTNER IN THE FIRM OF G F SINGLETON AND COMPANY, ESTATE AGENTS, OF BLACKBURN. THE INTERVIEWER IS MARY HUNTER.
Now, we were talking about your brother who joined up in 1914.
R – Yes. My youngest brother, after leaving school, became a laboratory assistant at the Blackburn Technical School and eventually he got a job as a junior chemist with a Canadian firm in Trafford Park who made a sugar substitute, I forget the name, it’s a kind of…
(50)
Glucose?
R - Maple syrup something like that. From corn products. Anyway he then joined the forces in January 1915 and became a sergeant in the Royal Engineers in the laboratory at Borden Camp in Hampshire. He also served abroad but after the war he became my assistant when I started on my own account in 1922.
(100)
I see yes.
R - And remained in that profession until he retired.
What work did your father do in the first world war?
R - Well, he continued his business as a machinery merchant you see?
And what about you? Sorry, carry on.
R - No, I already told you what I did see? I was until 1911 was at Airie Entwistle until 1916 and then I joined the forces.
Yes, that's what I meant.
R - Well, during the war of course he was in great demand because new machinery couldn't be obtained and so second hand machinery, when available, was in demand.
(5 min)
So it was quite a good few years of business for him was it?
R – Yes, that’s right, until the slump in 1921 yes. Right?
Yes. I just was going to ask you to actually say what your particular work was. Entwistle’s until 1916 and then you served in the army didn't you?
(150)
R – Yes.
As…
R- Oh I joined, as I say, the Royal Engineers and I eventually managed ... well I wanted a commission and I got the opportunity of going to the Artillery Cadet School at Exeter, and then I transferred to the Heavy Artillery Cadet School at Trowbridge from where I got a commission. And a few weeks after I was sent overseas to France.
Did anyone in the family work on munitions?
R – No.
What jobs, I mean you have mentioned teaching and nursing, what jobs were there for girls and women when you were young?
R -There were jobs in industry, the cotton trade took a large numbers weavers, winders, warpers. The garment making up industry took a large number, were operated sewing machines you know? But professionally the choice was very limited, mostly teaching and nursing.
(200)
What did you think of as being women's work?
R – Well, anything within their capacity as far as I was concerned but males had their line of operations and perhaps they were jealous of what the women could do, if they got the chance. I don’t know beyond that, women weren't expected to do heavy work, not like on the continent. And no, that was the setting 50 or 60 years ago.
Did the first world war make way difference to that?
R - Oh yes. You see, there was a shortage of labour in manufacturing munitions. Ladies came into their chance because there was such a demand and they found they could be trained to operate machine tools and do dirty work and, within limits, handling heavy goods, shells for instance you see? And, they proved
(250)
to the male world that they could do more than the males thought they could. So when it came to the vote there was no argument, they got it on merit, quite rightly so.
(10 min)
How did your family manage in the depression of the 20s.
R- Well we managed with having a determination to give satisfactory service, that was my ambition on my own account. My eldest sister had started her school in 1922, a private school and she likewise had the same ambition. My youngest sister was with a Nursing Home in London. My youngest brother was working with me. The other, one brother was in Australia and
(300)
the other, he tried his hand at several jobs eventually undertaking to acquire, along with a partner, a non-ferrous metal foundry near Altringham at Timperley I think it was, and he was there until he sold out to a larger firm and retired. That’s it.
What can you remember about the general strike of 1926?
R - A lot.
Go on then.
R- It was an attempt by the Trade Unions to strangle the country and it was a development, a political development ware than a financial adventure shall I say. Admitted, conditions of trade were bad, rightly or wrongly we had gone on to the gold standard in 1924 and it well may be that that action had curtailed the trade of the country. But in 1926 there was still the spirit of adventure by the general public. It was only eight years after the war and many of those partaking in the war were again to undertake their survival in industry. By this time there were more motorcars on the road, there were volunteers capable of manning the railway engines and there was a lot of voluntary work. I remember the Government published a newspaper - I'm not quite sure whether I have got a copy left - and ...
What was it called? I have just, I have forgotten …
R - I've just forgotten the name.
Yes, I have too. Was it The Daily Post or ...
R – But, something like that, but, or was it the British Gazette?
Ah, that’s more like it.
R - Well my recollection is that Churchill had to be curbed.
Yes that's right. Yes.
R – That’s my recollection, because he loved adventure, and here was an opportunity to show his, a general ability in manoeuvring and so on. But he was overruled and shall me say wiser counsels prevailed. And the - I don’t know, was it six weeks? I forget now - and then the six weeks loss of wages had caused privations and the women folk had had enough and altogether there was a general collapse of the attempt. It was, as I say, it was a political move and it didn’t do the Trade Union Movement much good. It's still remembered in the Movement and its defeat rather. rankles with some of the rebellious elements in the Union Movements.
(400)(15 min)
Are the history books right when they say that because the Government had warnings, it was one of the things that the Union threatened, that they were able to be sufficiently prepared with things like the organisation for the maintenance of supplies and training up volunteers to man the buses etc. that in fact that was a contributory factor in its failure? Are they, are they right when they say that would you think? (450)
R - Well I couldn't say. It well may be but it's only one factor. The limited income on the domestic household, for so long a period, after a period of bad trade, had I think a more important effect. To my mind it’s very unfortunate that so much stress is put on the Trade Union Movement by the political activities. It’s a long story but the question of responsibility came in and I think it's high time that the Trade Union Movement came to terms with society so that there was an agreed method of deciding the amount of earnings ... I do really.
(500)
Did you hear the latest on the radio this morning? I heard it coming over that the Government and Labour M Ps, a group who got together, are going to suggest via legislation that there is a minimum wage act for a 40 hour week set at £60?
R - Well I didn't hear that but the income of the individual basically depends on the prosperity of the country and unless we get, we restore the position whereby the earning capacity of the nation exceeds its expenditure, the increase in wages or the right to increase in wages is very dim. Now of course, in theory a lot can be said for variations and it's a common expression to say that workers are entitled to a bigger cut of the cake. Well that’s a political expression, and it’s an emotive expression and you hear it on political platforms. But, unless the size of the cake is understood you see it’s really meaningless.
Quite right.
R - I am afraid that democracy as we know it is in danger of
(550)
a collapse, because it has lost the sense of justice. I think I mentioned that
earlier. Now unless a nation in ruled by justice there are inherent dangers of a collapse, because people have a sense of what is known as ‘fair play’, and if it's unfair, whatever we describe it, it leaves an unpleasant feeling which may erupt in various ways. Now there is a danger of democracy being sold to the highest political bidder, a real danger and for the moment we'll assume two political parties. Now the
Labour Party ostensibly promises as much as it possibly can for the benefit of its members and I would say regardless of the real welfare of the nation. So, they are promising more than the nation can afford you see? Now, the Conservatives, they are in a difficult position because they can’t promise much, they daren’t because they know they can't deliver and the danger is that both parties promise more than in reality can be delivered by either of them. So unless the voters are educated to the real financial position of the country and are willing to work accordingly - in other words give value for their services, economic value - then
(600)(25 min)
some day democracy will come to an end. You see, it's like a private income really. Charles Dickens said you know, “Income£1, expenditure 19/6, result, happiness. But it the expenditures are £1-0-6, result misery.”
That's right.
R - Now therein lies a profound truth which can apply to the nation as well as to individuals. Andy this is the tragedy as I see it, there's so many people politically illiterate and don't want to know the truth, they have been brought up to expect, I wouldn't say something for nothing - but to expect all that they want regardless of its effect on the remainder of the nation. And this is as I see it, is the real problem, but unfortunately at my time of life I cannot go on the hustings and proclaim my views.
We started with the General Strike would you believe, that’s what we started with.
R – Yes well now, oh I remember vividly getting lifts in cars, and going to Bolton station for instance and getting out, and then getting a lift from there in a car to Manchester. Fortunately it was in the summer, the weather was good and we got through. And it's, what the enemies of this country - political enemies - who disregard justice between one member of community and another, and there we are. Of course
(650)
you get back to fundamentals, is this a moral world or not? And I believe it is and therefore the moral condition should prevail but if people ignore them then somebody has got to pay the price sometimes themselves unwittingly see, in the course of time. However I hope for the best but I fear the worst.
Oh well, we change the subject then. Can you remember how your spare time activities changed after you started work?
R - Yes my time was limited, I had not the same time for sports or amusement because my hours of work were 53 ½ and then I had night classes so that there’d be not much time left. And it was rather tiring because after a ten hour day, working day, which it was and two hours at night on three nights a week, well that was 12 hours a day on three days in the week. So what spare time had we?
Quite. So, did you ever go to dances?
(700)(30 min)
R – No. My family tried to teach me to dance but I can no more waltz than the man in the moon. It's one of the tragedies of my life.
Oh dear.
R - I can’t. The number of ladies feet I've trodden on is disgraceful.
What is it? You can't co-ordinate steps?
R - I can't, I can’t co-ordinate that’s right.
Oh dear.
R - And yet I am musical enough.
Yes well quite.
R - But somehow. I suppose, if 1 didn’t try I might do it, you see..
That’s quite true actually.
R - I think so.
If you get a real thing of, that you can't dance, and that's it I think.
R- Yes I think ...
Well did you go to the cinema then, or the music hall or the theatre?
R - Well I finally found, mostly found amusement or interest in the Sunday School. We made our own amusements, we took part in our own concerts we took part in our own games, and other social events. And we were at liberty to attend other forms of entertainment and amusement if we wanted but we didn't want, we were more or less fully occupied you see? And I think that’s right, yes, there was always a number, there were theatres we can hardly say we had a music hall in Blackburn. We had three theatres, one definitely noted for theatrical works and another we may say light entertainment, you might call it a musical but it had on what you call light stuff, generally a comedian or a man with a particular qualification. Houdini the escapologist etc. And then you had the small theatre at the cheaper end. Which was
known as a rat pit but a dowdy place.
But as you say, you didn't, it sounds have much time for these things.
R - No we led a full life.
Yes. You continued of course with your church activities after you started work?
R - Oh yes. I was a member of the choir and one night was given up to choir practice.
(750)
Yes. So that’s four nights of the week you were going out.
R- That’s four nights a week.
Yes. And did you take an interest in politics?
R - Yes well, of course that was occasional, just as it cropped up you see? At election time, I didn’t do any work in the meantime you see? Perhaps helped at town council work but my political interests were largely with elections.
Canvassing and the like?
R- Yes.
lf you were to be asked why did you take an interest in politics would you be able to say why?
R - Well, I thought it was part of life, and my father took part in politics and my grandfather, so I followed suit.
Did you take part in or follow any sport?
R – Yes, cricket and football.
And you managed to do that after you started work as well did you?
R - Oh yes. And at the beginning of the football season we teenagers appointed a committee to interview a farmer and fix a rent and to allow us to change in the barn near the field you see? Having done that then we bought goal posts and erected them and we bought corner flags, and a ball and of course a pump to pump the ball up to keep it inflated. And then we marked out the field with a brush and whitewash and then one man was appointed secretary to engage games with other teams and so on. But we subscribed - in the early days it was 6p sometimes to get started you see?
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Very enterprising. Presumably you usually had the same field.
R- In most cases, but we couldn't always get it, sometimes somebody would beat us to it you see? And then we had to take the second best and walk a longer distance.
And did you do the same with cricket?
R - Yes. But I was more fond of football than cricket.
Right, last particular section for today I think. Can you tell me where you met your wife?
R - Now then that would be telling wouldn’t it? Well I was first attracted to my wife when I was attending a service at her church, and she was in the choir.
Yes, I can just imagine, go on…
R - This is a frank confession isn't it?
Yes.
R- Well, and then she was a member of the Wesley Guild of her church and I was a member of the Wesley Guild of our church and we had rallies when the various Wesley Guilds got together and then we had places where we’d go on a Saturday afternoon, and then have a place for tea and walks and talks and a few games like rounders and you know.
Yes.
R - Pleasurable afternoons and so it developed.
Where did she live then?
R - In Blackburn.
But it was just a different church, different part of the town?
R- Yes.
Yes I see. How long did you know each other before you got married?
R- Ah well, I knew of her for many years because I knew her brother, they were all older, three of them were older than she, they used to play in different teams whom I played against you see?
Oh I see, yes.
R - So I knew they had a young sister but…
Well shall we say from the moment when you viewed her in the choir.
R - Oh well, yes I would think perhaps five years after something like that.
And when did you get married?
R - 1919 after the war. Oh well that would take oh I must have known her more than that. Well, perhaps five years will do this.
Did she have a job when you got married?
R - Yes she was with her father's business.
And what was that?
R Wholesale grocer. And she had, all her three brothers were in the forces and she went to the office to help her father, and the two of them ran the business until the boys came back.
So, in fact she didn't continue working after you got married?
R - No.
No. How many children have you?
R - Five.
And, when were they born?
R- Eh?
Can you remember?
R - Oh yes. The first was born on, 24th of May 1920, the second – that’s a girl - the second a boy, on the 1st of November 1922, the next was a girl born on 9th October I think 1927.
I think that would be right because that was the same year as mum, so that’d be right, wouldn’t it? Yes. [Helen, the daughter in question, went to school with Mary’s mother I think so this is the connection Mary is making.]
R - Now then. Well then, twin daughters were born on the 7th of May 1931, I think I'm right.
Well done, very good.
R - I'm right on the dates, and I think I'm right on the years....Good.
Well, 1927 is certainly right, I can be a proof to that one.
SCG/10 June 2003
3,297 words.
