TAPE 82/JM/01
This tape is made on the 5th of August 1982 at 50 Lower Rook Street, Barnoldswick, the home of John Sayer Metcalfe The interviewer is Stanley Graham.
Now then, what’s your full name?
R- John Sayer Metcalfe.
Sayer?
R- Sayer. [spells it]
Is that a family name?
R- Aye, yes it is.
And when were you born?
R - When were I born?
Yes.
R - 23rd of November 1898.
1898, so that makes you 84 years old.
R - I'll be 84 years old this time.
Aye, well Harold were right, he said you were two years older than him, you see. So Harold's got a good memory and all.
R - You aren't so old.
Yes. I'm getting younger every day. I'm getting younger every day.
R - You're not as old as my youngest lad. I've two lads older than you.
It's a great age to be. And where were you born?
R - I were born at Far Gearstones, about one mile yon side of Ribblehead.
Ah, up in some rough country.
R- My father were a sheep farmer.
What was his name?
R - William Metcalfe.
William Metcalfe. And what was your mother's name?
R – Sayer.
So that's where you get your John Sayer?
R - Yes.
And what was her Christian name?
R - Margaret.
Margaret.
R - Margaret Sayer. She were born at Low Grain House, Thoralby, that were where she were born.
Aye, Thoralby, where's Thoralby?
R - It's up in't Dales. You go over by Blackstone, do you know where Blackstone is?
Aye.
R - You go over by Blackstone over by t’Derbyshire Hills[?], past Street Head.
That's it, aye, it's a long while since I was up there. Is there a pub, Street Head pub?
R - Street Head pub, yes. Belonged to the Thwaite family, Thwaite.
How long did you live up there? Let me rephrase that, John. Do you mind if I call you John?
R - No, no.
When did you come to Barnoldswick?
R - 1908. We came from Paythorne.
So the family moved from Ribblehead.
R - They had a farm or two before they went up to Ribblehead, you know. It were about four or five mile outside Ingleton at Chapel le Dale. He farmed there did my father. He farmed on Ingleborough but chap bought farm and he had to move. That's why he went up yonder. And why he left Ribblehead was he'd only one lad and the others only sisters and they had to go to school and they had to go to Chapel le Dale school. My father used to either bring them of a Sunday night into lodgings for the week, with all their food for't week or bring them first thing Monday morning to Chapel le Dale school.
How far was that from Ribblehead?
R - Oh Chapel le Dale school, it would be about two mile I dare say.
Too far for 'em to go night and morning. Especially in Winter.
(5 min)
R - Well, it's a long way to go isn't it.
So you'd be ten year old when the family came to Barlick?
R - When they came to Barlick, aye. I were almost ten year old.
But you say you came to Paythorne first?
R - Aye, we came to Paythorne in 1901. I'd be nearly three year old when I come to Paythorne.
Now wait a minute, didn't Harold Duxbury’s family lived at Paythorne?
R - Yes, they did. Their grandfather did and his father did. They lived at Paythorne, England's Head.
That's it, well Harold well ..
R - That's why Harold and me are so friendly, you see.
So you knew each other then?
R - No, no, no. They come to Barlick, I think they come about the same year as we came to Paythorne they come to Crook Carr. I think it was about 1882 when they came to Barlick from Paythorne.
It was this farm, Carr House, that Harold moved to. Picture taken in 2009.
1882?
R --Yes, it was five years before the Jubilee. Well, he wouldn't be born then because he's younger than me.
That's it, yes. He's two years younger than you. I know about that because he was talking about his mother and father.
(50)
So the family moved from Paythorne. What was the farm they had at Paythorne?
R - Hewitt’s Top - Bank Top.
Bank Top.
R - just before you come up to the public [house]. It's on't same side as the public. Gamekeeper's house at bottom, you go up a hill and it's first house.
He was farming there?
R - He was farming there, that's right.
And then he moved from there to Barnoldswick?
R - That's right, yes.
In 1908?
R - In 1908, yes.
So why did he move then, do you know?
R - Yes. Family were getting up and he come to make some brass. Wanted women to go into the mill.
That's very good that, that's very important.
R - Fred Harry Slater got us to go to Barlick. He brought us to Barlick. Fred Harry Slater. He asked us to come here.
So your father knew Fred Harry Slater?
R - Oh yes, yes.
How did they know each other?
R - Well they got to know one another. I had a sister, a servant for them down there, for Fred Harry Slater. I had three sisters in service at one time. {It was very common for the daughters of Dales families to leave home and go into service in the growing towns.]
Where did Fred Harry Slater live when one of your sisters was in service with them?
R - Carr Beck.
Carr Beck?
R - Carr Beck were built in 1907.
Remind me which house is Carr Beck.
R - Where Dr. Bowers lives now.
That's it, on the corner. [At Lane ends in Barlick.]
R - Yes, that's right.
That's it, across from Harold's. What was your sister's name?
R - I'm not telling you.
Oh, right. When you came to the town, you'd be ten years old?
R - I might be just short of ten.
Could you go to work then or were you still at school?
R - I was still at school.
How old were you when you left school?
R - Thirteen.
Did you go to work straight away or did you half time first?
R - I went full time.
So thirteen, that'd be 1911
R - I'm not telling you. That's a question I’m not answering.
What was the job you did?
R I'm not prepared to answer you.
Oh right. Well, you worked at Clough.
Clough Mill in 1963.
R After a time, I didn't work at Clough at start.
When did you go to Clough Mill?
R - I worked for Slater’s before I went to Clough hill.
Yes, but I was just wandering when you started working at Clough.
R - I started working after the flood. 1932.
The destruction to the weaving shed at Clough Mill caused by the flood of July 1932 when the pressure of water broke through the back wall.
1932. That's it, aye. Harold were telling me, well obviously I've heard that before but he were telling me about that the other day.
R - I started working for Slater’s at 1915 and the Slater’s I worked for were cousins to them Slater’s.
That's one of the things that threw me for a long time; the fact that there were two J. Slater’s manufacturing. There was James Slater and then Joe Slater that was up at Clough. Were they related those two Slaters?
R - Yes. They all originated from John Slater and Son. You see John Slater had a family of lads and I don't know how many there were. James Slater at Salterforth were one of old John Slater's sons. Henry Slater, that's Harry's father and Joe’s father. Their father were Henry Slater. They were like cousins brothers in one way!
(10 min)
Some belonged John Slater and some belonged Henry Slater. Both Henry and James were brothers of John Slater's.
Did anybody ever say where Old John came from?
R - I’ve no idea what they talk about. I've heard more about a gentleman called William Bracewell more than anything else. He used to get the name old Billycock but I don't know where he got it from. That was Joe Slater's wife's father.
The reason I asked you that about John Slater was that I know that John Slater was a silk manufacturer at Galgate near Lancaster and he bought Clough Mill in 1867. I know that was when he bought it because that's in, a fellow who was the manager of the Craven Bank, Robinson, it was in his diary when John Slater had bought Clough Mill so that date's fairly firm. Now the thing where there's a big gap with me and I don't know whether you can help me or not is, have you ever heard anybody call Clough Mill anything other than Clough?
R - Never.
Have you heard of Mitchell’s mill?
R - Yes. That’s why Mitchell's Terrace is called Mitchell. They lived in Mitchell's Terrace. Mitchell were at Clough Mill one time. Mitchell's Terrace is across from the Police Station, that's Mitchell's Terrace. They built that row and all the Slater family were brought up there, Mitchell's Terrace.
(100)
The Mitchells, I've never been able to find anything out about the Mitchells.
R - No, me neither.
Every time I ask this question I get the same answer but I keep on asking it just to see whether everybody thinks the same. Do you think there was any connection, or is any connection between the Mitchells that had Clough Mill in the first place and the Mitchells at County Brook?
R - None at all. I don't think there is any. [I found out later that John was correct.]
That's what everybody says.
R - Them Mitchells that has County Brook, it were a big concern like. They were ever so many of 'em together. A big company. He were a Salterforth chap were Mitchell. His mother were a Salterforth woman. Used to live across from where Salterforth school is now.
This Mitchell, I know that he was there in 1845 at Clough because he converted it from a water mill to a steam mill. [I later found out that the first engine at Mitchell's Mill was before 1827.]
(15 min)
R - Well a warp mill, warp mill were down at Wellhouse Mill. That were the warp mill.
Now, what do you mean?
R - They were warping down at Wellhouse.
Yes, I mean a water mill. You know water driven. He [Mitchell] changed that mill from a water mill to a steam mill in 1845 [The first steam engine in Clough was before 1827 as Dr George Ingle found an insurance policy taken out by Mitchell for that year.]and then in 1867 he sold it for £3,000 to John Slater. I know that's right but now when you were at Clough Mill one of the things that interests me a lot is the water rights and where it came from. At the back of Clough Mill there was a lodge wasn't there?
R - Yes.
Between Ouzeldale and Clough Mill.
R - There was another one further up between there and Bancroft. If you want to know about water rights, water rights belonged to John Slater. Nutters, you go up behind what is Hey Farm, there's a stream isn't there. Up that stream there's a guidance, a split. Certain amount goes into Clough and a certain amount goes into Nutter's dam at top. In case of dry weather all we've got to do is ring Nutters up and they had to let their water down to fill our dam up.
There was a by pass at the top end of the lodge at Bancroft. I always thought that was just for like maintenance of the dam but that was because ...
The dam at Bancroft Shed in 1978. The water came in through the culvert at the top end and just on the far side was a deep manhole with provision in the bottom for diverting the incoming water into a bypass that ran under the left hand side of the dam and straight into the beck below Bancroft's sluice.
R - The water right. They had to have permission before they started. And a heck of a while before they got Slater's permission to start up yonder. Never too much water.
One of the things which so many people forget is - well you just couldn't start a mill without water. It's so important. Obviously I’ve been talking to Harold a lot about it. When you were at Clough can you remember any signs of where the old water wheel used to be?
R - I’ve no idea. I haven't the faintest idea. There's never no signs of water wheels at Clough Mill to my mind.
I never saw it when it was up but Newton Pickles, you know Newton, has told me he said, “I think when they reconstructed it, they removed all traces of the water mill.” he said. “I can't remember there being any trace there of anything like that.” The water, when it came out of that lodge there went into a culvert that ran under the mill and comes out below Lamb Hill there?
R - Lamb hill, that’s right. Just over the blacksmith's shop - Jaggers shop - round the corner. It used to go across the street at one time and into the beck round corner at Lamb Hill and then it used to go into Carlson's and water came from Springs you know. Water fed two mills.
When you were at Clough can you tell me how many boilers there were?
R - There were one boiler at Clough.
Just one. What sort was it?
R - I couldn't tell you off hand. just one big boiler.
(150)
Lanky?
R- Aye, the Lancashire boiler, aye. I can remember the old 'baulk engine' you know.
Tell me about that. That's a cracker! You're the first person who's been able to tell me anything about that.
(20 min)
When you say 'baulk engine' do you mean the old beam engine?
R - Aye, upright. You know that building, that four storey building? It ran all that you know.
Tell me about that old engine, will you John. You're the first person that's been able to tell me anything at all about that.
R - I can tell you about it and where it were. I'll tell you who cut stones - er - off baulk engine bed when it were cut out. It were cut out and Ted Tillotson bought it after Slater's sale and a chap called Theodore chiselled that bed out - the bed of that engine it were a stone about that square.
Aye.
R. - He split it with chisels and a big sledge hammer.
Aye, plugs and feathers?
R - Aye.
That was when they were taking it out?
R - Aye. When they were taken out. The new engine would go in about what time, in about1910 or 1911 when that new engine went in. Henry Brown, made it. They made that engine.
Burnley iron works John.
R - Burnley iron works. They did engineering for it.
Date on't engine - I have a picture of young Hoggarth in't engine house and date on't engine.
R - Herbert Hoggarth?
Yea, Herbert.[We were both wrong, it was George Hoggarth]
George Hogarth with the new Burnley Ironworks engine at Clough Mill in 1913.
R – It would be Herbert, it wouldn't be that other one.
Aye, and the date on it is 1913.
R - Aye, that's right. I wasn't far wrong was I?
No, no. Now this old engine whereabouts did.. It was four storeys wasn't it, the building at Clough? Was it at the top end of the building, like the uphill of the building or below?
R - The engine?
Aye.
R - The engine were nearer’t dam.
Aye that's, so it was like on a corner up in the corner nearest dam.
R - Aye, that's it.
That four storey building, when you first knew it, what were they using that building for?
R - Nowt. They had a fire there in the early 1900s. That went wi't baulk engine. It were disused after that. It went to wreck and ruin. Joe Slater, Dick Carr and Fred Harry and them they wouldn't do owt with it. Then when Harry got it on his own. When Fred Harry died and Joe died - I'm saying no more about that. Harry decided he wanted to extend a bit and Slater brothers, he were running them down at Wellhouse Mill. He ran them from 1924. They were paying Calf Hall rent - two of them for them looms. They got somebody in to examine, get a surveyor in, engineer in to see whether that engine would run more looms. So he decided it’d start from, second floor’d stand 'em. And so he decided to bring a certain quantity, he brought 128 of his best looms down there and put 'em up at Clough.
From Wellhouse and put them on the second floor at Clough?
R - Yes.
Did they tape at Clough?
R - Yes but tape were burned out in 1937, we’d a big fire.
Aye.
R - He'd about 2 years work in at Clough Mill actually working in, laid in't mill and we lost it.
When you say 'two years work in' that was cloth in the warehouse you'd been working for stock?
R - No, yarn to manufacture.
Early on when this four storey section was disused, I take it they'd be weaving in the weaving shed at the back?
R - Oh yes, on't bottom. 368 looms.
That's what that shed held was it?
R - That were number o' looms, yes, 368.
What sort of looms were they mostly?
R - Oh plains and twills. There were no dobbies then. Then when I went up they got a few dobbies.
When you say dobbbies do you mean like a spring top or...
R - No. Not a spring top, a proper dobby, up to sixteen shafts. I bought them off Slater's of Salterforth. They had about thirty odd dobbies there and they never used them.
And they'd be using wooden cards with pegs on?
R - Pegs on, that's right.
So you'd be able to weave some..
R - fancier cloth, that's right.
When you were working with those dobbies did you ever go up to sixteen staves or.,
R- Oh yes we used to have quite a quantity of Sixteen stavers at one time.
Because there weren't a lot of them in Barlick, were there?
R - Fernbank, Edmondson’s at Fernbank, they had a lot. They were sateen weavers before they came to Barlick. They started at Calf Hall. I think they’d been manufacturing in Nelson had the Edmondson family.
This is fascinating, John, really it is. They had a tape machine there. Well, one tape would just handle 368 nicely, wouldn't it.
(200)
(25 min)
R - That's right, it kept it going.
What sort of a machine was it? Who made it?
R - Just a wet tape.
Was it a Howard and Bullough or a...
R - It was a Howard and Bullough, aye. We used to have a twisting and looming machine at one time, a Barber. Twisting machine.
Barber Knotter? Aye.
R - Aye, one of them Barber and Coleman. It were a Barber and Coleman looming machine. Loomer used to have to set it up and then his son worked it. Lovell family worked it you know.
I was sat with Jim the other day down at Bendem’s, you know, Jim Pollard?
R - Aye.
I love watching Jim looming. I love watching Jim drawing. Oh he can get on once he gets going.
R - Wilfred Nutter brought him to Barlick didn't he.
That’s it, aye, because he were a cricketer. Jim, and I’ve said to him many a time, I said "You know Jim if you hadn't been a good cricketer, you'd have never got a job.” That was about 1932 something like that. Anyway, now Clough. It's really great this because you're filling in a lot of holes for me. The reason I asked about looms on the upper storeys at Clough was, you remember Billy Brooks, he died not so long since?
R-Yes.
Now Billy told me that when he was ten year old he was taken up to weave with his Auntie at Clough and he says he remembers being taken up in't hoist. (It’d be 1892) He was taken up to where the looms were. They must have been weaving on't upper stories.
R - They were weaving on every floor at one time. They had about 120 looms on each floor and bulk of manufacturers started there. You didn't know that did you?
Well, I know that one or two were tenants there in the very early days.
R - I'll tell you who were tenants there at one time, Pickles’s. Pickles had 96 looms on what they call, ‘on th’hill’. Slaters converted it into dressing rooms and chain beaming and such like as that at one time. Then there were Joe Windle, plumbers[?]. Ormerod’s started there and I don't know who else started there.
32 min
I'm glad Harold told me about you. I got some of those names, I'll tell you where I got some of those names. When the Barlick Urban District Council started up (I think it was 1891), in the record office at Preston there's the old rate books. Evidently in those days, if you were a tenant in a shed, you paid the rates for that part of the building and I didn't know perhaps if it had been put on the shed rent or what. Anyway the tenants are marked down as ratepayers and certainly Stephen Pickles and I think it was er.. Look I'm not going to confuse the issue because I just can't remember their names but they were down in 1891 and 1892 as ratepayers there.
R - Did you know Walter Petty, Norman Petty's father?
No.
R - Well his brother, Dick, he married my wife's cousin. He married one of my wife's cousins and he started reaching in for Pickles up at Clough. He got about 2/- a week or 2/6d a week. You know they used to reach in for them when they were looming.
(250)
There were no Wards treadle machines like there is now.
That is what Jim had at Bancroft but the one he's got now is even more modern, it's got a little electric motor on't back.
R - I’ll tell you when them machines come in picking out, them Wards. They come out in 1911.
Yes, that's the treadle machine.
R - Treadle machine, aye. They only come out in 1911. Before that they were compelled to have reachers in.
So that was somebody sat the other side of the frame.
R - Or behind 'em and just picking two ends off at a time.
Yes, for the loomer.
R - That had to be carried on for't coloured trade because they picked out threads you see into a pattern.
That's the only time I've ever seen Jim do it [By hand] up at Bancroft. Every now and again they had an odd warp with some coloured threads in it and of course they don't come at the right time.
R - Oh no, no. You put a cord across and picks 'em out. [Leasing]
Yes, that's right. Now, Clough. I’m right in thinking, did Harold say that you were the manager?
R - Yes, that's right.
Now, were you the manager until they finished?
R - Yes, that's right.
Now can you tell me what year they finished weaving?
R - 1956.
And how many looms were there at Clough in 1956. In total.
R - In total?
Yes. Or you can give them to me in the different floors if you want, you know.
R - There’d only be the ground floor because we did away with all the others. We installed about twenty universal winders and we installed twenty warp dressers and they were on top. We went back onto warp dressers, you see, there were more coloured work then. 1'd say there’d be about 280 then, 280 looms when they finished. Of course they re-spaced you see. They spent a lot of money respacing and one thing and another bringing it up to date.
I think you said you went to Clough in 1930?
R - I went to Clough in 1932.
1932?
R – After the flood.
That's right. The 'more looms' system would just be coming in.
A - The more looms, Tertius Spencer system, was started at Clough Mill in 1933. Didn't go down right well either.
Can you tell me, obviously I know a bit about the 'more looms' system, but there'll be people in a hundred years will wonder what we're talking about. Tell me what the 'more looms' system was?
R - 'More looms' system?
Yes.
R - Yes, ‘more looms' system was [what replaced] when they were limited to four looms. Four looms were the limit in the bulk of places in Lancashire. Tertius Spencer, he thought that if people got a bigger shuttle with a bigger cop they could run six looms without any bother. That's why we called it the ‘Tertius Spencer’ and Harry Slater, he got in, he were friendly with Tertius Spencer. He went to have a look at it and he liked it end he thought he'd try it.
It's the first time I've heard that name, Spencer.
R - It were a Burnley firm - Burnley firm. Plain firm in Burnley.
Aye, plain weaving.
R - I've been in places where they've had forty or fifty looms [each weaver]. All red, I got right up to date, all shaft work. Hang down [a loom stops] and a red light comes up. That's how Courtaulds started you know. I've a son who works for Courtaulds. He worked at Clough Mill. He were with me at Clough Mill. I'll show you a photograph of him before you go.
(35 min)
(300)
So they brought the 'more looms' system in and of course they were… Now just while we're on about the 'more looms' system, when did they bring the pick clocks in?
R - The what?
Pick clocks.
R - Tick tocks?
No. Pick clocks. You know the pick clocks?
R - Oh I couldn't tell you. They were supposed to bring them in [for] years and years. Oh I’ve no idea. Never had any. Never any pick clocks at Clough Mill. [The weavers] weren’t paid on picks, we were always paid on't cloth. Paid on the old Lancashire list.
By the cloth?
R – By the piece.
Does that mean then, John that up until 1957....
R - 1956
When Clough finished they were still working by the piece?
R - They were always paid by the piece. They were paid £2.4/9d for standard cloth.
Now then, the more loom system didn't come in without some difficulties.
R - Oh no! All the looms had got to be rearranged and they were set in sixes, you know. Some places in Clough Mill you couldn't just get 'em into sixes on account of the pillars you see. Clough Mill were an old, antique mill, as you might say and same as upstairs, there were pillars, solid pillars, 10” circular. Solid pillars, all on beams you know. They were all little narrow looms, they wouldn't be broad looms at all. Some weight.
What width would they be? What width of cloth?
R - They'd be 32 inch looms happen.
When we're talking about respacing, was that done at the same time as 'more looms' came in?
R - They reorganised a floor.
That meant that a lot of sheds had less looms in them after respacing than before?
When they respaced, they stopped carrying warps for a start, you see. They used to have to carry their warps, you know. The Beam carrier, he used to carry 'em on his shoulder.
Did the tacklers carry their own warps?
(40 min)
R - Yes, they did, they carried their own warps. There used to be what they called a beam carrier and that chap would be apprenticed to tackling.
That's the first time I’ve heard of that.
R - I can tell you, nearly all the chaps that I know [tacklers] has at some time been a beam carrier. He started beam carrying, then he learned to tackle.
Would he have to be a weaver first?
R - Yes, he’d have to be a weaver first. There is odd uns get on without being a weaver first. They understand what they're doing. They’ll be doing it all their life, knocking about all their life.
Another thing, am I right in thinking that one of the things that would have to be done by the manufacturers was slow the looms down.
R - Yes, just slightly, they just did it slightly.
How did they do that?
R- They used different pulleys, bigger pulleys on you see.
On the loom?
R - On the loom, yes.
That's a cracker, that fits it. You know Newton's told me that one of the first jobs he can remember down at Brown and Pickles, he said, “We got fed up with making loom pulleys.”
R - He'd get fed up with moving drums an' all.
That's right, for the respacing. I always found the most difficult thing was to get 'em running true again after you’d shifted them.
R - Oh aye.
No, because it's no good if you can't get 'em running true. Did it ever get, at Clough when they were going onto the 'more looms' system, did it ever get to a strike?
R - I think they did strike at one time but I'm not going to say nowt about that.
Yes, so the 'more looms’ system came in. Now at the beginning, tramp weavers, were there still tramp weavers about say 1937-8? At the beginning of the second world war?
R - There weren’t as many about then as there was at the beginning of the second World War. There were quite a quantity. [I think John meant between the wars. Either that or he was making the comparison with the position after the war.]
(350)
R - I could always put me hands onto half a dozen or more weavers I could rely on. If you saw 'em in't street, just see them and they'd stop as long as you wanted 'em.
That's something that interests me because when you talk about 'tramp weavers', you know, if you didn't know about it you'd think perhaps that they weren't the better end of the weavers but I've been told that that's wrong. I've been told that the tramp weavers were really quite often very good weavers.
R - Ch they were some of the best! They could handle owt there were in Barlick because they'd been used to dobby weaving and coloured weaving. Now bulk of Barlick weavers hadn't been used to that sort of work. It seemed to frighten 'em. One with a lot of pattern in, it seemed to frighten 'em.
Why do you think tramp weavers were tramp weavers, why didn't they settle down in one place to one job?
R - Oh they liked roaming about. Some of them liked to spend Summer outside. Some’d like to spend Summer at Blackpool in't billiard rooms. They come here to keep warm in Winter, when it were cold. They'd go into the model lodging house. There's two down the hill, where Duxbury’s is now, that's one. That were the last that were put up. Before that there was another, that's an engineer's shop now.
The Model Lodging House in Butts in 1920.
The Model Garage in Butts was also a lodging house for itinerant weavers.
Harold were saying that his father took that place over in 1936 and he said there weren't enough tramp weavers then to fill both.
R - There wasn't enough to fill one never mind both.
Would you say that there was beginning to be a bit of a shortage of labour?
R - Oh there were, definitely. Before and just after the Second World War, there were a shortage of labour.
Are we saying before the Second World War or after?
R - Just after the Second World War.
That's a cracker! You're a goldmine, I’ll tell you. I’ll just have to think for a second because you've triggered me off with all sorts of things. I don't want to confuse you. Can you tell me apart from George Hoggarth, can you tell me was George Hoggarth the engineer down there when that new engine was put in?
(45 min)
R- Can I say, can I just tell you, Fred Midgely might have be there.
Fred Midgely, now then.
R - he went to Nutters, you know. Then Herbert Hoggarth come to Clough. Not Herbert, George.
The picture I have is George.
R - I well, it will be.
At Clough. Was Herbert?
R - Herbert used to drive him before. He was knocking about Clough Mill with that photographer when he was eight or nine year old.
Albert Hoggarth that was at Butts, what relation was he to Herbert?
R - Nothing that I know of. One thing that always struck me, they were no relation but were them Hoggarths. He had another brother, Albert at Dotcliffe.
That was the one that hung himself?
(400)
R - Oh aye, he did.
That flood in 1932, what can you remember about that?
R- Well, I weren't at Clough then, not just then, I went up after. I was down at Wellhouse. I could tell you what caused flood was all Nutter's rubbish. It were empty skips come down stuffing the goyt up. All that water it burst on't top. That cloud burst on't top. All that water came down, rubbish and t’lot came down, came right down over the top of the goyt. That wall came in.
At Calf Hall?
R - At Clough.
At Clough!
R - Oh aye, the wall come in at Clough. That's where the water came in.
So what you're saying is, all that rubbish came down and blocked the goyt up that went under the Mill and so the water built up there and burst through the end wall. By gum that must have made a mess in't mill there. [The canard about 'Nutter's rubbish' was common. In fact Nutters at Bancroft hadn't got any rubbish that could wash downstream, it was more likely to have come from the original Wild's garage just above Bancroft where they stored skips and boxes outside.]
The aftermath of the flood at Bancroft. The skips you can see came from the old Wild's garage beyond the top of the dam.
(50 min)
Every loom were covered up to the height of - it'd be five foot high. Right through the mill.
It did the same thing at Calf Hall.
R - Yes, it did.
So how long would they be stopped then? How long before they got going again?
R - Oh they soon got going again and then they started a double shift. Yes, they started a double shift, September or October. They were working two shifts, they worked night shift.
Did they do that to catch up on orders?
R - To catch up on't old stuff, aye.
Was shift working common in Barlick?
R - No, not in't weaving trade, only Peter Reed’s running two shifts now over at Blacko, Sunrise Mill. The looms now, you can set 'em on to run two or three days without attention but the Unions won't let 'em run em. They have to stop 'em now. These 'ere looms, they would go on for ever nearly and Union stopped 'em during the meal hour.
They stopped 'em running 'em during meal times?
R - Aye.
When we were talking about Clough earlier on, you were saying they put Universal Winders in. Before that were they getting all the weft in as you know on the cop. Mule yarn?
(450)
R – We were getting part in and part we always had, since 1923 we always had one or two universal winders. We had two down at Wellhouse and then we’d three at Wellhouse and then we’d three or four at Clough.
Were they Leesona’s?
R - Yes, all at Manchester[?] are Leesona, 20 spindles to a machine.
They were good winders them.
R - Oh aye, they were good winders.
Yes, yes, they still had those at Bancroft when I first went there but we got rid of 'em and put another row of, I think they were Britoba’s in. They were some old uns we got out of a scrap yard somewhere.
R - That's it, aye. We used to wind a lot of silk on ours y' know, with a spindle. We used to buy a pound silk cake.
So they did some silk weaving at Clough?
R - Oh yes, we did a good bit at one time.
That wouldn't be silk on its own, that would be part of the pattern in the dobby looms?
R - Aye, they had it both ways. Part mixed in with dobby patterns, part catopa, a woollen yarn that won't take dye, will take dye, you see. A different colour when you dye it, you see.
I've never come across that.
R - It's a kind of wool mixture.
Now then, mule yarn, when it was coming in - when did they start swinging away from mule yarn to re-wound weft?
R - Oh it's been going on now… Edmondson’s at Fernbank were the first to start winding a lot, you know. I think Clough would be about second.
When would that be about?
R - Oh we started after the Second World War. Re-organising and cutting out and that sort of stuff.
What was the theory behind re-wound weft?
R - Well, you used to get a better cloth, for a start because there were less setting on places and when weft had been re-wound, if the winder were a good winder, well it used to run straight off. You'd have less waste because winders would make less waste and weavers wouldn't be having to broach so many cops.
55 min
You'd get them in this size cop about so wide.
Like a ring cop, almost?
R - Yes, a ring cop. They used to make it into either warp or weft. It had a lot of advantages. A far bigger disadvantage was not allowing enough for it, for winding it. There was a colossal amount of trouble with Unions for that job.
AT that’d be with the weaver’s Union, obviously.
R - Yes, aye.
And that was really making er.. it was making a tremendous - a big difference to the weavers in that they could get more work done because they were getting less changes.
R - That's right so they'd just push on. Oh a big advantage for weavers when they handled all the lot. And then spinners started to put it onto Welsh hats - you know Welsh hats of compressed cardboard, a tube. That were all right you know. We had trouble when we got to send them back, we got to return 'em but they were charged to you as cop price.
(500)
That's interesting that.
R - Oh there was a lot of work attached to that. They didn't all just get it loose.
These are some of the things that get missed out when people are talking about history. They miss these things out. You said something there that I think we ought to explain a little bit, about when you said that the Welsh hat pirns were charged at cop price. They were charged [by weight] at the same price as the cotton.
R - Us? The manufacturer?
Yes.
R - Yes, when they went back
And they were weighed into the warehouse and then it was weighed out again and the difference was the amount of cotton, so in the finish you'd actually paid just for the cotton.
R- That's right.
And they'd [the spinners would] start playing war if any of those cops were going back with waste on 'em.
R - Aye, that's right what got broke.
Every one of those cops that didn't go back, the firm ' d have to pay for it in the same weight of cotton.
R - Oh yes that would be the big disadvantage, it weren't all honey you know, getting it like that. A lot of people think it were but it weren't.
In the early days you'd be getting a lot of weft in that was straight of the mule on paste bottoms wasn't it?
R - That's right, yes, paste bottoms. They'd like starched a bit at bottom. If you wanted some weft sometime, you'd only a perforated tube bottom. They used to go to the dyer at Breeshaw[?], we used to have to put doings in, skewer 'em and force dye up.
Dye 'em in't cop?
R - Dye 'em in't cop, aye. Some of 'em had short paper tubes in and some, eventually, had long paper tubes in.
Aye, that were a special kind of weft that had them. Special kind of weft.
R - Aye, a special kind of weft, such like a mixture of cullinder[?], like a coarser kind. It'd be like a mixture weft. It came on a through tube. We used to get a lot of dark stuff on these tubes, special yarn.
(1 hour)
Was the reason for putting special yarn on these tubes right the way through was that there was more chance of stabbing one of those cops than there was the other.
R - That's right, more expensive weft and you don't get the same amount of waste on a through tube. Same thing were applicable there, them tubes have got to go back.
They went back those tubes?
R - That's right, yes.
And that was really one of the things about paste bottom and those little paper tubes that there were no empties to go back. Of course if somebody wanted to start up weaving; basically with the room and power system, if they had looms and - well actually they could even get their taping done by outsiders, couldn't they?
R - They could. Then when trade were bad and they got into arrears with rent with a lot on ‘em and these manufacturers they'd clear out and get six months grace off another firm, you see.
(550)
Aye and the worse times were, the more likely they were to get the grace.
R - That's right.
Aye and good times when everybody wanted space, you couldn't get grace could you?
R - No, you couldn't, not in good times.
Would you say in the early 1930s...
R - That were a bad time, that were a bad time. That were bad, 1930’s.
How bad?
R - Worse than what it is today. Take all trades alike. It were bad in 1930, bad as ever it were. Of course, I don't think there was as many unemployed then as what there is today but there you are, it's science that does this unemployment more than owt else, you know.
Well there's less jobs about.
R - That's right. They bring these here things in and they're doing away wi labour all the time.
In one way I think it's a very good thing but the only problem is that people don't get paid if they're not actually doing some work and we've got to find a different system somehow.
R - It's a good job that we've struck oil somewhere, isn't it?
In a way I think it's a bad thing because I think we're living in a fool's paradise at the moment.
R - Oh we are living in a fool's paradise, everybody's living in a fool's paradise!
If we didn't have that oil, they'd have to start doing something about it. Aye, I agree with you. Do you know, you're the first one that's been able to tell me anything at all about that engine, that old engine down there. That engine when it was in, that would be running about five or six hundred looms.
R - More looms than that at one time.
So it must have been about...
R - A terrible big baulk engine were that one there. A chap they called 'Old Theodore', he chiselled the bed away. Briggs and Duxbury's concreted, they filled it in and concreted it for us. A good run little place was that.
Was that where the new engine went?
R - Oh no, new engine didn't go theer. That's right, yes.
And the generation machinery that went with it.
R - That's right, yes. Always plenty of power at Clough Mill. We’d two big dynamos to run. We used to make our own light at one time. It was lit up with electric at one time. Then we had accumulators for pilot lights.
Yes, they used to have same system at Bancroft.
R - Had they?
Yes, in fact there's some of them glass batteries, them big, glass batteries with tubes in. There's some of them still left up at Bancroft and they tell me, Sidney Nutter once told me that when he first went to work for James Nutters one of his first jobs was he had to go round each week and collect, I forget how much I think it was half a crown a week or a shilling a week from houses like Newfield Edge who took electricity from there at night for lighting, out of the batteries. Of course there was no electricity until about 1920, no mains.
R - Oh no, no mains. I was just thinking Joe Slater would have lighting of his own.
Yes, but Sidney told me that Joe Slater's house, Newfield Edge. used to get electricity from Bancroft and Eughtred used to go sometimes Eughtred Nutter. They used to go round and I don't know whether it was every week or every month.
R - They wouldn't pay 2/6d a week.
I’ve forgotten whet it was but I know it was something. Of course Sidney died before I got round to asking him all the questions I wanted to ask.
R - He died did he, Sidney King?
Sidney Nutter. Aye, Sidney, it was a brain haemorrhage or something. He just died sudden. Aye, he was alright was Sidney. I liked Sidney.
R - Was he one of Herbert's lads?
I think so - yes, he would be. He always used to say he wasn't one of the Nutter millions. He used to say 'I'm the poor branch of the family'.
(1 hour 10min)
He said I’m not part of the Nutter millions, aye he was all right was Sidney, he had a great sense of humour. But like I say he died before I could ever really get going with him. I'll tell you what it is, you've given me an awful lot to think about with Clough Mill because you've filled in one or two of the gaps for me.
R - I hope it's been useful, that's all.
It's not just useful, it's indispensable because like that beam engine. Newton can't ever remember anything about the engine. He said to me when we were talking about it. He said, ‘It's a pity me dad isn't alive…’
R - Aye, the old lad!
He said “If Johnny were alive he could tell you, but that was all over and finished with long before I started.” Newton was about 67 and that was cleared out long before Newton ever came into the job. That's interesting, that is. Just let's think if there's anything else.
R - Used to run away with ‘em. Used to run away you know. That old baulk engine would get out of control you know.
Can you ever remember that one at Clough doing it?
A - What?
Have you ever heard tell of that one at Clough running away?
R - No, I don't think I can but they used to have one at Coates, Coates Mill used to have one you know. An old baulk engine. Ridings used to have that mill you know, Coates.
Who actually ran that mill at Coates?
(650)
R - Walter Wilkinson and Company. Who had it before them I don't know.
This Walter Wilkinson, when would that be about, John?
R - About 1912 or 1913. Walter Wilkinson were the manager at the Co-op at Earby. There were him, there were Jack Myers, Duckworth and Elisha Harrison, Waddington, all the lot of 'em.
That's it, and they were basically Earby men. Were they anything to do with the Seal Manufacturing Company?
R - You what?
Seal Manufacturing Company. Does that mean anything to you?
R - No, it doesn't mean a thing.
That’s something, I came across a reference to do with them connected with Coates once and I've never been able to find anybody who knows anything about it. Seal Manufacturing it was called. Waddington, Wilkinson and them, did they run Coates up until it closed down?
R- Yes, right up to closing down.
Now Coates was one of the first mills to stop weaving in Barlick?
R - Oh no. When they took over they built that new end of Coates. That were the old mill theer. They took that down and built that big new engine, joined it up to the other you know. It used to belong Ridings, the mill belonged Ridings of Blackburn. Coates must have bought it off 'em. Bought it cheap and then they extended.
Did they call it the Coates Manufacturing Co?
R - Coates Manufacturing, aye.
When would they finish weaving about, John?
R - Oh I can't just tell you at the present time. I know they'd a bad do. They'd a narrow do at one time and I couldn't just say. Walter Wilkinson had three lads, you know. He’d two or three lads had Walter Wilkinson, and Grenville he did very well in cotton trade but he went from here to Whitefield. They started at Whitefield did Walter Wilkinson's lads.
I think they finished in the early 30s because it stood empty for quite a while.
R - Oh aye, until Dobson's Dairy took it.
Dobson’s' took it. Newton's told me about going down there to get the engine going again.
R - I didn't know they had a new engine, it might have been the old baulk engine.
Johnny Pickles put another engine in.
R - Oh did he?
Johnny Pickles put a -- it was a horizontal he put in.
R - Aye?
And then years after, Newton had to go to it and change it from gear drive to rope drive.
(700)
R - A-lot of difference between rope drive and the other.
One of the things I've come across is a lot of room and power company tenants didn't like rope drive. They knew that with the gear drive, every time the engine turned over the shaft were turning so many times but with rope drive it slips a bit.
R – Course, with ropes they vary with the weather. We’d a lot of rope drive at Clough Mill you know.
(1 hour 15 min)
I know, at Bancroft, it was a job, you had to watch your engine speed. If you wanted to do your best job for the weavers, you had to watch your engine when the weather changed. In dry weather your engine [shaft speed actually] speeded up and damp weather it slowed down [the leather belts in the mill reacted to humidity as well. In dry weather they shrank and tightened up thus speeding the looms up.] and I used to go in and I used to go to one weaver every time, Billy Lambert, they called him Billy Two Rivers and I used to go to Billy and say (Because he used to be a tackler, you know.) He was a right good weaver. I used to say, “How's it weaving, Billy” and M he'd say,” Well, it's just a little bit slow” I used to go back in't engine house and speed the engine up a little bit and leave it for 20 minutes and then come back in and he'd say, “Just reet, just reet.” Sidney Nutter told me that when I went there, and I've always been very proud of this, that after I'd been there about six weeks he said “Stanley, do you know, I was just working it out this week that since you've taken that engine over, you've raised wages in't shed on average 30/- a week” The engine were running at right speed and running even all the time.
R - Did that chap from Colne have it afore you?
Aye, George Bleasdale. Oh he was terrible!
R - Aye, dirty beggar! Rough chap.
He used to make water down't side of the fly wheel. He told me to clean it up one day. I said, “No, George.” I was fire beater for him for six months, I said, “No, George,. You put it there, you shift it.” He never did. Oh God it stunk! I got a lot of disinfectant and cleared the wheel pit, it hadn't been cleared out for years. It were full of old oil. No, I didn't like stuff like that. So Coates, you said that where they put that extension up, near the canal, that there were an older building there.
R - Aye, there used to be. It were an old shed, I don't know what it would be used for - some bit of a storage or not, I don't know. I didn't know much about it.
Can you remember anything about or heard anybody tell you about Old Coates Mill?
R-No, never.
The one that used to be water powered.
R - No, never.
Billy Brooks is the only man I know of that could ever tell me anything about it.
R - Who?
Billy Brooks. His father used to weave there.
(750)
R - I dare say.
It was down where Rolls Royce car park is today, it was down there on that beck. It was a water powered mill. He told me about his dad and his mate, and if it was a Summer's night and it was light and there was plenty of water running they used to go back and get into the mill at night and set wheel off [and weave for an hour or two] because it give 'em more cloth and it give them a bit of boozing money at weekends. Can you remember Ouzeldale Mill when old Ashby took it over and turned it into a foundry?
(1 hour 20min)
R - There's always been a bit of an Ouzeldale engineering shop up there you know, always been a bit of a moulding shop.
Before Ashby?
R - Aye, Ashby's come and started moulding a bit did Ashby’s. It's always been similar to that job before. Watts had it and did a bit of casting for Browns at one time, Henry Watts and them. They did all the castings there you know, did Henry Brown, Sons and Pickles. [Henry Brown’s before they liquidated actually.]
R - They nearly run Ouzeldale at one time did Watts and them.
And then of course Browns started their own foundry down in't bottom there. [Havre Park]
R - Aye, that' s right.
Just before they finished.
R - He were a good lad were Willie Brown. Same with Johnny Pickles and Newton’s like his dad. Walt Fisher were an' all. Two good lads were them. Turned some good men out an' all.
Newton's told me the story many a time about him and, oh, was it Harry Crabtree, going down to run Clough. They were stoking the boiler at Clough when they had that American coal, when they had that red coal just after the war. He said, “We were stoking away and steam were dropping and it was no matter how much coal you put in, steam just dropped.” He said it were terrible stuff.
R - Slush! Nowt else, only slush. Stuff off a...
Like a tip heap? Aye, lend lease it were.
R - Aye.
Newton, I’ve done a lot of tapes with Newton.
R - Good lad is Newton.
He'll be back off his holidays now I want to go down and see him. Anyway, I'll tell you what it is John, I’m very grateful to you, you've filled a lot of gaps in for me and I’d like to think that if you know, not straight away, but in a while, I get some more stuff that I want to know about. Can I come back and ask you about it?
R - Aye. Come back anytime - within reason. I’m always at home, I never go out, there's never anyone here. I never go further than the front gate. I'm done you know. I'm 84.
What's that, your chest, is it?
R - Aye, me chest.
SCG/10 November 2002
9447 words.
