The Lancashire Textile Project 2013

LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/SB/01

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON NOVEMBER 18TH 1978 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


[We all make mistakes and it wasn't until it was too late that I realised I had never taken a picture of John Greenwood. I apologise!]

Right, John. Some nice quiet simple questions and we'll get through them. How old are you?

R - I'm 69 actually.

Yes. So you were born…

R - Born on August 24th 1909.

Nineteen hundred and nine. Yes. And where were you born?

R - Well, I was born in a street called Green Street which has now been demolished which is within 100 yards of where I'm sitting now. And I've lived in this area within what you might call a quarter of a mile, all me life. Yes.

Yes. Aye, that’s grand is that.

R - I was. born over to me left, and the thing is then we moved down at the bottom of the main road here and then when I got married I moved into a row of terraced houses 200 yards away. Then we moved into another house 100 yards away and from there we've come here. Aye.

Aye, good. How many years did you live in the house that you were born in?

R - Oh, I wouldn't say above six at the most. I can remember moving, I can remember moving, but [I can’t] just say just exactly .. but I was a small child you see.(50)

Have you any clear memories of the house in Green Street?

R - Oh yes, I have indeed. The thing is it was a two up and two down. When you went in the front door you were immediately in the living room and in it there was of course the old fashioned oven and the fire grate with the boiler at one side and an oven at the other, with the fire in the middle and that's where, like, the main living was done. The back kitchen is where the sink was, and of course in those days the only means of cooking that we had were pans and the fire oven.

Yes. We'll go into that in a lot of detail in a minute or two. Just one or two things that… Can you remember why your family, or do you know why your family made those moves?

R - Well as far as I can gather, my paternal grandmother lived in a street about 400 yards away and I understand me mother and father moved nearer to her, you see. But this was it, but it wasn’t satisfactory. I mean actually the area where we moved to wasn't quite as good as what the one that we left and me mother was very much against it, but of course father had the last word and that was that, because it was his mother you see? So we moved into this area which was actually a worse house that what we were in.

How long did you stop in that second house?(100)

R - Oh well, now then. I should say about 10 or 12 years. And the point was that father died in that house you see, he died, and those were the days when there were no such things as funeral parlours you know, they used to spend three days under the window when they'd passed on [Ventilation?]. And I can see now, you know, him being laid out and I had a sister who died in the same house at the age of 22 you see? [Remember there were only two rooms]

Where was your father born John?

R - Oh my father was born in Rawtenstall as far as I know but his family actually came from the Peterborough area you know in Lincolnshire you know, with the industrial revolution. And my mother’s side came from Soham in Cambridgeshire. You know, they came up here, their parents came up here when the industrial revolution was on and they wanted all these workers. They were putting cotton mills up and they came up here. Now me paternal grandmother worked in the cotton mill right from my knowing her style of thing. She was what they call a winder, where they transfer yarn from small packages on to bigger packages. Now me maternal grandmother, she was one of the old type, what they used to call .. they call them midwives today but I don't think she had any qualifications for being called a nurse, but if anybody were having a child she were always there, and at the deliveries you know?

That's it, yes.

R- And me maternal grandfather .. you know all the hills round here are absolutely lined with stone. Well he was a crane driver, a steam crane driver at one of the quarries over the hills. And, well I don't know how, mother and father they got together and they married and that was it, and the thing is they…
(150)(5 min)

So your mother was born in Rawtenstall actually, but of Lincolnshire, Cambridgeshire parents.

R- Cambridgeshire parents. Well I should think so, I can't just exactly be sure of that because I never heard her mention kind of being born in Cambridge, you see?

Yes, well that’s what I mean, you know that's the thing ...

R - And the same with me father.

We're just, you know, if you don't know you don't know and that's it. How many brothers and sisters did you have?

R - Well there were six of us altogether. There were four sisters and one brother.

Whereabouts did you come in the order?

R - Second.

Second? Can you give me the names of all the brothers and sisters in the order that they were born, you know, including your own?

R- Right, me eldest sister was Lillian, she was the one who died when she was 22, she wouldn’t have died today, she died of pneumonia. Then there was myself and then there was Sarah and then there was Betsy and then there was James, he died in infancy, and Anice, she died within a week of being born.

Anice?

R - Anice, A n i c e. My mother was called Sarah Anice you see, Sarah Anice, and my father were called John Henry.

How many confinements did your mother have?

R - Six.

Six. Yes, that's it aye. You know I mean, you realise in those days it were possible to have, I mean I have one case where there were 11 confinements and four children you know.

R - Oh aye. Well they were all born alive but I mean James died when he was 18 months.

Yes and Anice died within a week?

R Oh aye, she was … aye, very…

What would you, can you hazard any guess at the cause of her death you know? (200)

R - Oh well, the thing is that… Well James, he died of croup you see. And in those days of course croup was a childhood disease in as much as they you know, when they used to get that it used to be touch and go in any case

That's it yes.

R- You see with there not being the drugs and that we have today. So this is why, and he were a grand lad, I mean, but he just got this croup, it started with a chill and it turned to croup .. he passed out on mother's knee.

How about Anice?

R - Oh well, she was an infant. I can't really tell you as I wouldn't know whether it was ... Let's say she lived…

She never got going.

R - She never really got going no.

Never got going, yes. When you were a child can you remember any relations living in the house with you?

R- No. We always lived on our own. Mind you, I've made up for it since.

Yes. Did the family ever have any lodgers?

R- No. I mean there were, we had never no room for lodgers in as much as you'd two bedrooms and that was that.

Yes. What was your father's job when you were born?

R- Well as far as I can remember me father was always a coal carter. That's the thing in getting the coal from the station, putting it in hundredweight bags [50kg], putting them on the lorry and carting them round to the houses and delivering.

So it were domestic deliveries not mill deliveries.

R - Well not wholly. If they were a bit slack on the domestic side of course they used to take coal to the mills.

Yes. Who did he work for?

R - Well a chappie called Jimmy Barrett who was at one time the Mayor of this town. And he worked for him as far as I can remember all his life except during the first world war when of course he was grade III. And from being a coal bagger they put him into stoking a boiler at the generating station. And then of course at the latter stage he had to go, he went into the tank regiment because he had a dicey heart I think. Anyway, as far as I can remember, his condition was a ‘smoker’s heart’ whatever that is, I've never… Aye.
(10 min)(250)

Smoker's heart ... Aye.

R - But he, he was grade III.

You'd be five years old when the first world war started?

R- Oh yes.

Have you any memories at all of the start of the first world war?

R – Well, I wouldn't say I have a lot of memories about the actual starting of the war, but I've a lot of memories of the war you see in as much as there was rationing and at the beginning there was queues and that sort of thing. For instance, just to give you an example, with father going down to the local station and the main volume of goods being carried an the train he always had advance warning when there was a supply of margarine coming to the Maypole. And one of my earliest recollections is that he came home, you know he dodged home, he’d been down to the station. “Oh, there’s margarine coming to the Maypole!” so he came and told mother. Now me mother sent me sister, who would be seven at the time, down to the Maypole to join the queue. And this would be before half past eight in the morning. And I can remember she said “Now, you go down.” Because she had to work you know. She worked all the time, right up to the time that she became disabled through rheumatism. But she said to me, when she came home to breakfast you know at half past eight. She said “Now you go down and go in the queue while Lillian comes home and has her breakfast.”

That’s it, aye. (300)

R- And at five year old I went down to the Maypole and stood there and then when my sister had had her breakfast of course, later on she came and we both stood there. We missed school by the way and the thing was of course, the lorry brought this margarine up of course, they carted it all into the Maypole as it was and then when they started opening the boxes they opened the doors at about half past eleven and we had been stood there from, you know, about half past eight.

How old was your dad when he died?

R- 42.

42?

R- 42 yes.

Was that, would you say that that was very young to die? Even then?

R - Oh yes definitely. Because I mean…

What was the cause John?

R - The actual cause what was on the death certificate, this I don't know but I think he finished up with cancer. But he was ill for 18 months you know before he died and I might tell you he’d a very trying period was that. Because me mother had to work and I remember one Christmas in particular mother… When he died, he died on Boxing Day, me mother had to stop off work for three weeks before you know, and I had one sister working half time and there were six of us and that's the only money we had coming in apart from ten shilling he got off what they called Lloyd George you see which was a National Health… But that was it. But you see although he was a coal carter he was a chappie that, and I say this with all respect, neglected himself. In as much as he would get wet through and instead of changing himself when he came in he’d put a good fire on and dry his clothes on his body.

That's it.

R - So you see, and then he used to smoke twist and chew twist and I don't think that did him any good.

How old were you when he died John?

R - Twelve.

Twelve years old, so he died in 1921.

R – Thereabouts.

1921 yes. What was your mother's job before she got married?

R- Well me mother, as far as I can remember, always was a ring-spinner you see in a cotton mill. (350)

Yes. Ring-spinning?

R- A ring spinner, yes. And I can give you an early recollection of that, I mean one of my earliest recollections as a child was being got up at five o’clock in the morning you see, and along with me sister, me mother used to take us to an old lady who was commonly known an Snuffy Martha.

Snuffy Martha? (15 min)

R- You see, and this was because she took snuff. But she used to take us, and I can remember because it was down the road here, me sister and meself holding hands, Winter and Summer, and she used to take us to Snuffy Martha’s and then she had to go down to the local centre and catch a tram to Acre Mill at Haslingden which is what, three miles away to start at six o’clock in the morning. And we were there, I mean, Martha used to feed us whilst she came home at night at six o'clock and then take us home you see. And I can remember that very vividly.

Yes, and you'd only be about three year old or something like that then. Yes.

R - I'd only be a toddler yes that’s all yes. Aye, I'd only be a toddler and I can remember it very vividly.

Yes. You remember winter's mornings, frosty mornings and that, yes.

R- Oh yes, aye.

And she carried on working outside the home after she was married.

R - Oh yes. In point of fact she continued working right up to, as I say, she was disabled with rheumatism 16 years before she died, and that was the only time she kept off work. But she was a ring spinner all her life. Aye.

How old was she when she died?

R – 68.

And when was that, John?

R- Oh now, let’s see. I’ll have to think back, I can’t just remember the date, about 1952.

1952. And you say that she was disabled for 16 years before that.

R- Oh yes aye.

And who looked after her when she was disabled?

R- Well, yours truly, and me sisters. (400)

You did. Yes.

R- You see because it was a kind of creeping rheumatism, arthritis and for the last four years of her life she was totally disabled in as much as she couldn't feed herself and then in the last two and a half years she went blind.

So she was disabled really from 1932 till 1952.

R - Well not totally incapacitated you know, I mean…

So that she couldn't work.

R - Oh no, aye that’s right yes.

Aye from 1934 till 1952.

R – Yes.

That’s a long time John.

R- Well this was it you know. I mean this rheumatism, it creeps on gradually. It's not a sudden do. But I mean it was so.

So you’d be 27 when she started to become disabled in 1936, you'd be 27. Now you weren’t married then?

R- No. I didn't get married until 1950.

Yes, so would you say that if your mother hadn’t been disabled, do you think you would have got married?

R- Oh definitely yes. I mean, I had a lady friend but of course you see she couldn’t wait indefinitely and you were torn between two loyalties you see. Always having gone to church and that kind of thing you know, you're brought up to ‘Honour thy father and thy mother.’ style of thing and it was very much emphasized so that you wore torn between the two, getting married and …

Looking after your mother. Yes.

R- Aye. So I looked after my mother and unfortunately, I realise it now of course, it was a mistake not to get married. But finally I did get married three years before she died.

That’s interesting John. Can we talk a bit more about that? Why, when you say it was a mistake, in what way?

R- Well, let's say, I mean 40 years of age to get married and to think of starting a family, is a bit off. And I mean like the thing is I firmly believe that every child has a right to be well born you see. I mean… And the thing was at 40, mind you I mean my wife, she was very understanding in as much as, you know she was younger than me by about 10 years.
(450)(20 min)

Yes. Do you think you could have made as good a job of looking after your mother because evidently you must have done. I mean you must have made a good job of it . I mean could you have made as good a job if you had been married?

R- Well I shouldn't think so because .. let’s say this you see. I mean for years I used to, we used to have what they call a bed chair and I used to sleep in the same room as her in as much as whatever she wanted, if she wanted a drink, if she wanted easing or the other human functions, I used to do all the lifting. You see the couldn't stand up, she couldn’t help herself in any shape or form, so that had I been married, you see…

It would have been a terrible strain on your marriage for a start off.

R- Well it was.

How about work? You'd, because obviously you'd have to go to work.

R- Oh yes, well, what I used to do you see, I used to attend to her in the morning. And then in the latter years of course it came to the point where one of my sisters had to stay at home with her you see and I used to attend to her in the morning and you know, fit her up for the day. I mean because there were no such thing as district nurses coming round then. And then, if it was possible, I used to come home at dinner time you see. And certainly as soon as I came in at night she’d be waiting to be attended to. And then of course, well I went out very little actually because, as I say, if she wanted to be lifted out of bed you know, and this kind of thing, my sisters couldn’t do it.

Looking back John, do you regret doing what you did?

R- Oh not at all, oh not at all. In as much as the thing is that I can honestly say that I did my duty. Oh no, I’ve no regrets at all. It gave me, shall I say, a far greater insight into feeling humanity towards anybody that’s ill than ever I could have had if I had gone through life without any illness or attending to anybody.

I'm sure it must have done.

R- You see I mean, I feel for anyone that’s ill. Aye.

Yes, right, we’ll leave that alone for a bit, we’ll probably come back to it later on. But I find that … It’s creditable to say the least John. Did any of the family, you know, any of your brothers and sisters leave the Rawtenstall area before 1930? (500)

R- No. We’ve been native bred and born and we’re still all here. Well, I mean the two who are still alive, they are still here, yes.

Yes. Out of the houses that you lived in as a child, which one do you, remember best?

R- Oh well, I remember they the one that we moved into.

From Green Street?

R – Well, the one that, shall I say, strikes me most is possibly the one… Because when we were married we went living with the wife’s mother, and then I got a house of me own and we bought it.

Yes. But I mean when you were a child.

R- Oh, when I was a child?

Yes when you were a child you know?

R- Oh the house that ...

You know, which one do you remember best?

R- It was in what we call Barlass Street.

Yes. That's the one that you moved into from Green Street is it?

R – No. We moved into a place called 'The Fold’ and as I said earlier, this to my mind was worst than the one in Green Street. Now in Barlass Street of course you see you had a parlour, a kitchen, an out kitchen, two bedrooms and an attic.

Yes. What year, when did you move. Now you were at Green Street for about six years.

R- Yes.

And then you moved to The Fold. And how long were you at The Fold?

R- About 12 years, let's see now, I would be eighteen, aye, happen about 12 years.

Yes. Well let’s talk about Green Street first, and then we'll try them all. Green Street first, how many bedrooms did it have?

R- Two.

And what other rooms were there?

R- There was nothing only what you might call the living room, and then a kitchen.

Yes so it was like a two up and two down.

R- Two down, that's it.

Was there a proper staircase?

R- Oh yes, there was a proper staircase.

Can you remember any of the furniture?

R- Well again, way back in the archives I can remember like we had a fairly decent house of furniture, at least I thought so. And then all of a sudden it went very austere you see. And, well I should say that I was about 30 before I ever found out why. And it seems father had ideas of going into business on his own which he did, you see. The trouble was
(550)(25 min)
he was too generous, in as much as he left that much tick, he was made bankrupt and we were sold up. Now this is the story that I heard. As I say I was too small to remember the details but I can remember like, we used to have a sideboard and that kind of thing and we finished up with just a chest of drawers you know I mean and that's very vague.

Yes. Did you, you wouldn't have a parlour there, you'd have a living room and a kitchen and that's it, yes?

R- Oh no. Aye that was it, yes.

And you'd have your meals in the living room.

Oh ye, aye.

Yes. And where did your mother do the cooking?

R - Well in the living room, because that was where the fire grate was.

That was where the fire grate was.

R- You see, and the oven and the boiler.

And where did she do the washing?

Well, depending, again, mainly in the living room because the hot water was there, you know there in a side boiler

Side boiler ...

R - And the fire was there.

Yes.

R- And you know the thing in that the fire grate just let me think, oh no it hadn't, not there, but you used to have a great big pan, a washing pan, two handled pan that she used to put on the fire you see with water in you see for the washing. So I mean instead of carrying all the hot water into the kitchen, at times she used to do the hot water in the kitchen because the sink was there but mind you, it was only a stone slab, only a stone slab you know with a drainer in.

Yes. That's it yes. And you wouldn't have a bathroom?

R- Oh no, no.

Where did you have a bath?

R- Always in front of the fire.

That's it, what night?

R- Well, Friday night was always bath night for the kids, one after the other.

John, every time I ask that question I know what the answer’s going to be! Everybody had a bath on Friday night.

R- Aye well, let's say this, there was a routine at our house. I mean me mother had, she had a routine that she really couldn't get away from. Because you see she used to bake her own bread. And I mean at Monday night, and mind you this is after working from six in the morning until half past five and then bringing the kids home and giving us our tea. On the Monday night she used to wash you see. And then at Tuesday night she used to bake bread. Now, Wednesday night she used to iron, and it was a cast iron, the old flat iron you know, you'd to get your heaters in the fire and then put them in the box. And then at Thursday was cleaning up night you see and then Friday it was bath night for the kids. And then at Saturday afternoon you see, after she’d done her bits of cleaning up she might take us to the market which was an event see. From just up here down to the market which was an event on Saturday. Now Sunday of course you had your breakfast and then it used to be the big day, potato pie and rice pudding for dinner you see. And then she'd bake bread as well and oven bottom muffins. Oven bottom muffins with butter on, sometimes a tin of pineapple chunks, that was Sunday tea. Aye. Mind you she used to make currant cake and apple pies you know but this was, Sunday was the highlight for feeding because you can quite see that coming home at night, you know. Well, as I say…

Yes. Well we will do a lot on food later. Was the, the lavatory, now where was it?

R- Well you went through the back door, you went across a little landing, down some steps and the lavatories were about 20 yards away.

Yes. And were they water closets or dry?

R - Oh they were dry.

Yes. Night soil man?

R - Oh no, I beg your pardon, no, they were tippler type.

Tipplers? Aye that's it.

R – Aye, tipplers, yes.

And the house had piped water?

R- Oh yes, it had piped water and lamps.

And gas you mean?

R – Lamps, oil lamps.

Oil lamps. Aye. What sort of lamps were they, were they wicks or mantles?

R- Oh no they were wicks. Aye, and candles of course. You see candles for upstairs and, but the lamp was always set in the middle of the table and they used to fill it with paraffin you know?

Yes. And did you have a stair carpet?

R - Oh no.

No. Were they stone or wood steps?

R- Stone.

Stone steps aye. Can you remember any of the neighbours having a stair carpet?
(30 min)(650)

R – No, nobody had a stair carpet. In point of fact they hadn't carpets on the floor because we used to have sand.

Yes, that’s it.

R - We used to have sand on the floor and then we’d sweep it up and then at Friday night, no on Saturday we always put the hearthrug down and we used to have a peg rug.

That's it.

R- And that was put down at Saturday.

And it’d be took up Sunday night.

R - And took up, took up at Sunday night. Yes, aye.

That’s it. Do you know, that's something that people can't get hold of nowadays. You know yourself, everybody has everything now and they cannot understand somebody having to make their own hearthrug and only having it down at week ends.

R- Well, the thing is, I can remember some of the big girls as we used to think they were, when we lived over here, they used to get sandstone, you know plenty of stone and they'd chop it up you know with another stone and then they'd go round selling it, pennies and twopences to sand the floor. Oh aye, you used to sand the floor.

[John is illustrating something that few people realise today. Ordinary sand, because it is water worn, has rounded edges and if scattered on the floor is actually slippy and won’t stay where it is scattered. Crushed stone has sharp edges, is not slippy and scours the flags when you walk on it. Much of the wear noted on stone floors and doorsteps is caused not simply by wear, but by the scouring action of sharp sand on the floor.]

Yes that’s it. So they were flag floors downstairs?

R- Oh yes, aye, they were all flag floors, generally wood upstairs of course.

That's its aye. Yes. Did you have curtains or blinds?

R- Oh we had blinds.

Yes, those with the spring or the paper ...

R- Paper blinds. Paper blinds, you pulled it up with a string.

That's it yes. Any curtains.

R- Not beyond, oh lace curtains. Oh aye, she used to have lace curtains.

How about any other sort of curtain, like a bigger curtain. Similar to the curtains what you've got here.

R – Well, they used to have them lace curtains similar to those you know? Or on the other hand you just had one that went half way like what you see, like half way across. Aye.

Yes that's it. Did the neighbours have curtains?

R - Oh yes, oh aye, I means they all had curtains.

You can’t remember anybody not having curtains?

R - Let me think now. No I can’t say that I did no.

How about donkey stones?

R- Oh aye. Well the thing is you knows you used to save your rags and when the rag gatherer come round you got donkey stones or salt.

Yes. Or salt?

R - Or salt. Oh aye, they ...

One thing John, that salt, what sort of salt was it?

R- Rock .. it was

Like block salt.

R - Block salt you know, happen about two foot by about six inches square.

Aye?

R- And one chappie in particular that I remember, they used to call him Salt Sammy, and he used to have a barrow that he trundled. And he had an old saw. He’d cut you a chunk off, you brought him some rags and he’d get this saw and sawed a chunk off this block of salt and give it you. Aye.

Aye. I've never come across that before John. I've come across donkey stones but not salt.

R- Oh yes. Oh aye it, well it used to be salt or donkey stone.

Yes, when you got your donkey stone, you tell me what you did with it.

R - Oh well, let's say this the hearthstone in the front, you know under the fireplace was always donkey stoned.

Yes. What colour?

R - Well, my mother always went for white she wasn't one for cream. And you always used to stone your step of course, your door step.

How about the kerb stone?

R – No, we didn't do the kerb stone but you always used to swill your flags you know. But, I mean, they, every time you wiped your door step you’d give it a lick of donkey stone. (700)

Aye, just round the edges. Aye.

R – Yes, oh aye.

How was the, was… Oh but you told me, the house was lit by the oil lamps and candles upstairs.

R- Oil lamp, yes.

When can you first remember having electric light?

R- Oh well now, this was in Barlass Street. And the thing is that I can’t remember what year it was, but I know at that time it was coming in that they'd put you electric in for a pound a light. You see, with a pound a light. And I know that we had seven lights put in this house in Barlass Street which as I say it had two bedrooms and an attic, an out kitchen, a kitchen, what you might call a dining room and a lounge.

Yes. That’d be marvellous wouldn't it, when you got electric lighting?

R - Oh yes it was indeed.

When did you first have gas light?

R- Ah well, now then, we had gas light .. again, the house in Barlass Street, when we moved in had gas but the house in The Fold had lamps and candles. Aye.

Yes, that’s it yes. How about, were they fishtail burners or were they incandescent mantles at Barlass Street?

R - Incandescent mantles. Aye, there were no fishtails. No.

No. How about getting rid of the household rubbish, what happened to the household rubbish.

R- We used to put it in the dustbin. And of course the Corporation came round every week and emptied your dust bin.

Yes, so it was a dust bin. How about ash pits?
(35 min)(750)

R - Oh well, we never had an ash pit but me grandma had an ash pit. And it was like a communal place where everybody threw their rubbish. And then again the Corporation used to come round and clear it out, you know, when it got full.

But am I right in saying John, that most stuff was burnt on the fire?

R - Oh you burnt as much an you could. Well, let's face I mean the thing is that your old paper, you always used to use that for kindling and wood. You know I mean, you used to go round scrounging bits of wood and chopping them up. I mean orange boxes, when oranges used to come in boxes with three compartments in, you used to get an orange box. I mean I've broke up many a hundred but I used to like apple boxes best because they split easiest. But this was like mainly my job, specially with a blunt axe. And oh aye, I mean even in Barlass Street we had firewood, and I used to, in the cellar, there was a cellar down there. There were recesses in, you know, set back along the passage of the cellar, recesses. And we used to keep one of them specially piled up with kindling wood. You know I used to have a session breaking it up.

Yes. Who used to light the fire John?

R - Well now then, that's a bit of a, it presents a bit of a poser in as much as I would say who was up first. But when we were all going out to work we never lit a fire until we came home at night. You see we were all going out to work. But even when were going to the school we never had a fire you see although we had a fire guard, me mother never lit a fire. And well, what used to happen was that as you get older, of course you could light a fire. I mean when you got up to ten or something like that you could be responsible. Well in point of fact we used to be because although we hadn’t left school we used to clean up you know. I mean, we used to all do what we call mop round. You know, that was mop the hall floor, flag floors you know and then we used to… Well I know, I can remember it being my job to blacklead all this grate.



A typical cast iron kitchen range with side boiler.

That's it.

R – But like as for lighting fires, I mean from the age of eight I took a paper round you know. So like, as we used to go out I used to go out at ten past six in the morning and if I was lucky there was a fire in when I came back at half past seven you see, so I fancy my mother lit it mainly. Aye.

How did your mother do the washing?

R- Oh well, yes. That was the rubbing board and the dolly stick, posser.

That's it.

R- Aye, I mean .. What used to happen, she used to get her hot water and put it in this zinc tub.

Yes. Dolly tub?



R- Aye, t'dolly tub, and then of course she used to put her, they used to call it dry soap then. You see they call it detergent today but it were dry soap.

What sort were it, can you remember what she used to put in.

R- Oh well it used to be, there used to be Compo and Rinso. Now Rinso has been going donkeys years, and then there were .. oh, what was the other one called? There was Rinso .. Compo .. I've forgotten what the other one was called but it was…

Acdo was it?

R- Oh no, Acdo wasn’t thought of then. It was a local compound, and I’ll tell you what sort of soap she always used, she used to use Dr Lovelace’s made in Accrington.

That's it. Aye that's it. Lovelace’s soap aye. {I sold Dr Lovelace's soap in the grocer's shop at Sough in the 1950s. Also some soft soap with flecks of camphor in for blanket washing.]
(40 min)(800)

R- And then what she used to do you know, she put her, used to put her clothes to steep while we were having our tea you know? As soon as she got enough hot water that was it and then of course she used to poss them. Of course it used to be my job as I got bigger to poss them you know whilst she was doing something else. And then she’d rub them. Well the girls then used to do a little bit of hand washing you see. And we used to have a big baking mug, about what, nearly a yard across, earthenware, glazed on the inside. Well the girls would happen be doing a bit in the sink, on the sink you know, the stone sink, while the old dolly tub and what is it were going. And then we had one of those big, upright mangles, you know, where you have a wheel at the top and you used to put the pressure on the springs on. Then you used, I used to have to turn it, two hands you know, I can remember doing all this of course. I mean the thing is in those days in the working class families, lads were as domesticated as the girls.



Yes well, they had to be. Yes.

R – We all had to ... pig in as we say.

And she'd do her washing once a week obviously. And how long did it take her to do the washing, John?

R- Well, it just depends, it just depended. I mean she was only human and if she had an off day she wouldn't do so many. And then if it were bedding week, you know she'd skip it a week but I shall say that to do the washing, oh it took all out of two to two and a half hours.

That's just to do the washing itself. That's it.

R - That's to do the washing. You see, because you used to, we used to have lines strung across the kitchen you know? Pieces of rope and she used to hang them on there to dry. And then ...

Did she ever dry, she'd dry them outside would she? Had she a line outside?

R – Well there was a drying outside, but with working all day you see and at night .. she could hang them out a bit in summer time at night but in winter time she couldn't hang them out.

Yes. That's it, aye.

R - You see, because I mean it were, it were dark you see?

Yes. And she ironed with a box iron?

R- Oh yes.

What do you remember most clearly about washing day?

R- Oh well ... Most clearly about washing day, it's a good question is that in as much an it used to be a day I didn’t like because there were water all over the place and then again you know, you couldn’t play ...

What was dinner like on washing day? Were it different than other days?

R - Oh well. Well I mean, meals, they were catch as catch can most days. If you had any meat left from Sunday.

Resurrections.

R – Aye, you had that. But I mean there were never no question of having a cooked meal. I mean it’d .. let's see .. I really don’t know just what we lived off in those days.

How did your mother clean the house?

R - Well let's say this, that she used to start upstairs. And in those days you know beds were about 18" to 2ft off, off the floor. And I know it were my job mainly to crawl under the beds with a hand brush and then every so often of course the beds were pulled out and it was all mopped you see. And how, it was mainly brushing and mopping and dusting, clean the windows you know? But downstairs of course it was the old mop, the old open bucket. And we used to mop it as I say, mop round. And that was the main thing, and the scrubbing brush of course.

Yes. Was there any piece of furniture that she paid special attention to?

R- Not really, because we never had any particular pieces that were of any merit that I could remember. No.

And of course you and your brothers and sisters, you'd do, you had your jobs round the house like as you've said sweeping under the beds and possing and all the rest of it.

R - Oh yes ... Oh aye .. Well, I used to have to chop wood and… (850)

With you being one of the older children did you have to help the younger ones with dressing, or eating or anything like that?

R - Oh well let’s say this, you grew up as a family and of course you took your part in it. Oh it used to be a case of aye, looking after them. Oh aye.

Yes that's it aye. And did you do any jobs for the family outside the house like running errands or gardening or owt like that?

R- Oh I used to take the papers morning and night, oh aye. But never like running errands for neighbours or anything like that. But, no, I wouldn’t say so, like we never did any, well there were no gardens and there were no ground for gardens or anything like that because the houses were all huddled together. But I used to take the papers and that was as far as it went. I mean I used to get up at six o'clock in the morning and many a time if the trains were late, say it was foggy or anything like that, I'd nearly been late for school, gone without breakfast.

What were the local papers John? And the papers that you were delivering you know?

R - Well, there used to be the Daily Despatch, that was one of Hulton’s and then there was the Sketch and of course there was the Manchester Guardian, for the elite occasionally the Times. There were the Daily News, see that was another one and then the, oh there was the Sporting Chronicle, Sporting Chronicle and then the that were the main dailies. Well there was the Evening Chronicle and there was the Evening News and I can remember the, no, it were the Northern Daily, I can remember that starting up. Because it started up when they put them on the streets you know, on the … they used to have lads going round with them you know shouting and touting in the street, because I know the chappie I worked for he was very annoyed about it because they were selling this like local paper in front of his door, his shop door. And then of course they came to an agreement and it was incorporated then into the ordinary run of the mill shop you see, and they took the lads off the streets. Aye, but those were the main ones, the [Manchester] Guardian of course went to the better end and the Times but there were a lot of, there used to be a lot of comics you know, Comic Cuts and Tiger Tim’s and then there were Film Fun and Film Weekly. There used to be Rainbow and Butterfly, and then as you got a bit bigger you know you got on to the Gem and Magnet, and the Adventure and Rover and the Wizard [and Hotspur] and these were the kind of things you know.



SCG/18 July 2003
7,656 words.


LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/SB/02

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON NOVEMBER 18TH 1978 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


Straight away again John. You were delivering all these comics so you'd be reading them on the way round and all, I know.

R- Naturally, yes. Aye,

That’s it aye. Do you know, did your father ever do any work in the house you know?

R - Oh no.

Nothing at all?

R - Very rare. I meant if he stopped in at night it was a wonder. And it were a funny thing, the little things stick in your mind. I remember one time he was making me a track out of soapbox. And he (50) was stopping in that night, so of course me mother had to go for a pint to the pub round the corner.

Jug and bottle.

R - No, the Old House at Home, it's still there.

No but I mean the jug and bottle department, aye. but anyway…

R - Oh aye. When it came out, she went for this pint and I know he was… he got two wheels, you know, two baby carriage wheels, he got this soap box and he were going very nicely, and I can see him now .. on the hearth in front of the fire of course and she brought this pint and when he tasted it she’d brought the wrong sort so he put the axe through the box.

Is that right? Aye.

R - Oh yes. You see I mean the thing is that I’d been looking forward to this truck so as I could give kids a ride you know, mind you I was only small meself, but it was going to be a little truck. You see you didn't get toys then like you do now. Well we never had money to buy toys you see and it were going to be something to play with.

Aye. Looking back John, one of the things that always strikes me, talking to people of your generation is that you always get the impression that the women folk were very much second class citizens. Would you say that that was right? (100)

R - Oh yes, definitely, especially in the working class, because well the fellas, they used to have shall I say, not a superior air, that wouldn't just be putting it right. They were the bread winner and as such they enjoyed [status] For instance, I mean when we, well we never had much money, I don’t know what father did with it. Well I do know but I'm not going to say. But I mean, he’d be having say steak for his tea and we’d be having jam. You see? Or I mean, on the other hand we’d have something cheaper. Well I mean we never got meat, not a steak (5 min) you know, we never got that. No. And the thing was that they were, well I mean, in the later years as I was getting older, he used to spend his time every night at the club seven days a week. In point of fact he finished up being secretary or something. I know there were a summons for some licensing offence and of course he had to go to court. Me mother played heck with him for showing her up. But this was it you see. But I mean they used to spend a lot of the time in the clubs.

I mean when you come to think about it, your mother’s life was all mill and work at home.

R- Oh well this is one of the things that I honestly think contributed to her illness. You know, because I mean, into water out of water, into water out of water. You know? I mean and then again the thing is that she had six children in between and all that that entailed. This is sure to undermine the resistance you know because when you'd to work all day you couldn't so very well come home and start making a great big meal because when we came in we wanted our tea you see? And this was it. Until we got older. I mean like me eldest sister was only two years older than meself.

Did it strike you, did you ever think at the time, I mean we are talking now of course with hindsight, looking back, but at the time when you were younger, did it ever strike you then that your mother seemed to always be working? (200)

R- Oh yes, oh aye it did. And I mean, in point of fact, as I say like it got to the point when we were old enough where actually, I mean today a lot of children wouldn't think of doing it, that it were our job to wash up you see when we were quite small. And I mean .. I can remember at Saturday mornings me eldest sister, she [mother] used to leave us in bed then you see because they only worked while dinner time. And me oldest sister, although she was only two years older than myself she used to have to get us up. And me mother would have left our breakfast ready you know but there were no tea. I mean she never boiled the kettle because she was really. well I mean, happen about eight you see? And she'd give us breakfast, give us our breakfast so that we didn't go hungry. But this was it, me mother used to come home at twelve.

Hard days John, they were that.

R - Oh well, this was it. This is why, one of the things why, kind of, they say "Lancashire lives in a chip shop" you see. And this was it. I mean the thing is that you came home and you used to go to the chip shop and the tripe shop, this is why I like tripe and black puddings.

Yes that's it aye. That house in Green Street, did the family own it?

R - Oh no

No? It was rented?

R – No. He never owned a house until we went into, until I bought the first one on Raby Street you see? Oh they were all rented.

Yes. Now that house in Green Street, have you any idea what the rent was for it?

R- Yes. It were about four and ... I think it were four and fourpence a week.

Yes. Did that include rates? (250)

R- Oh yes, aye.

Yes. And who was the landlord?

R- David Whitehead. David Whitehead’s owned the house in Green Street. And actually, what we wanted, me mother said she wanted a house in the next street to us, which is Union Street, which David Whitehead’s owned and they were bigger houses you see.

Yes. And who was David Whitehead’s?

R- Well David Whitehead’s, they were the local mill owners. David Whitehead and Sons. [Ilex Mill]

Would you say that they were good or bad landlords?

R- Well, it was a case of this you see, that they had joiners and this kind of thing so if you wanted anything doing you got them done. With the exception that you know, they were always, shall I say, you'd to pay for your own windows or anything like that. Yes but the houses weren't anything salubrious at all in as much as there were no mod cons, no baths or anything.

You say they were they were local mill owners. Did they, they'd build the houses for the workers?

R- Yes. I mean all these houses in this area were built between 1870 and about what, 1910. Probably before that some of them. But they built all of them. You see in those days when they brought these people from Cambridge and Lincolnshire they had to have somewhere for them to live.

That’s it yes.

R- So of course you see they built these houses for the workpeople and it was more or less a tied cottage, in as much as if you got one of their houses you worked at their mill. Although the actual tying didn't apply in as much as you could work somewhere else and still be in one of their houses.
(300)(10 min)

Like your father, I mean he was a coal carter but he rented one of their houses. Yes. Which shop, which mill did your mother work in?

R - Well she worked in Lower Mill, this is the one down here, for thirty odd years.

And who owned that?

R- David Whitehead’s.

Whitehead’s.

R- But originally she worked, as I say my first recollection is she worked at Acre ..

Acre at Haslingden?

R- At Haslingden, well it's nearly half way between Haslingden and Accrington and I can't tell you who owned that. But then she came down to Whitehead’s here and actually our family would have three generations and I don't know how many years of service at Whiteheads. I mean me grandmother, I can remember going in the mill to visit me grandmother. And she, as I say she was a winder and my mother worked thirty odd years. I have two sisters who’ve worked there forty odd years you see, each, oh aye.

Each. Did your mother do any work in the house to earn a bit of money you know, like child minding at home or taking washing in?

R - Oh no. No she was always in the mill. Aye.

She was always in the mill and working. Aye. Can you remember anybody in the neighbourhood doing anything like that?

R- Oh aye. Aye I mean like I said, Snuffy Martha used to. There used to be us two and then there’d be her own granddaughter, and Bella and…

How about taking in washing?

R - Well there used to be women who did but normally, usually they were what you might call a little bit higher up the social scale who sent their washing out but there used to be washer women I can't just bring any to mind but I have a faint recollection of somebody and they always did Mrs so and so's washing from the big house up Haslingden Road. And she always sent her washing to them because she knew it was just so. You know they used to use plenty of starch, and boil their clothes you know, wash coloured separate from whites and what have you. (350)

Is that house in Green Street still standing?

R – No, it was demolished about seven or eight years ago.

Yes. Now, the house that you moved to in The Fold, the one that your mother didn’t like and you were there until you were 18, how many bedrooms did that house have?

R - Oh it only had two.

It was still a two up and two down. Yes. So basically in all essentials that house was the same as Green Street.

R- Yes except that it was a bit smaller.

Aye. Smaller.

R- Yes.

Two up, two down, no gas, no electricity

R- No.

No mains drainage, tippler lavatory. Tell me, there was your mother and father and there was six children .. how many children were there when you moved into the Fold? [I was wrong here. A tippler lavatory needs a water carriage system and mains drainage. What I was confusing it with was a flush lavatory]

R - Only two.

Only two.

R- No, four, there were four of us.

Four, that's it. Ah well then, four in one bedroom wouldn't be so bad really would it?

R- No. Oh well, it used to be that the two youngest used to sleep in the same bedroom as my mother and father. In point of fact we all did you see at one time. You know it was a great big room. And then of course as I got older or, no, it were my sister, she was two years older than me, she flitted into the back bedroom with the girls you see.

Aye that's it. Now that house at the Fold, is that standing or has that been ...

R - Oh no, that's been demolished.

That's been demolished and all. (400)

R- Aye. So is the next house we lived in Barlass Street which was quite a good house, well they've been demolished for the bye-pass. You know the by-pass as you came down, well that’s where they stood. In point of fact, as you go to the bottom, as you go to the bottom here to come on to the junction of the by-pass, the houses were exactly back to the river. The river is culverted there you see, well they were back to the river.

Right, we'll get on to, we'll do a bit about food. What did your mother, we are talking now about Green Street, what did your mother cook on?

R- What did she cook on? On the fire.

On the fire.

R- That was the only means of cooking.

Yes. So that’d be .. fireplace, set boiler on one side and oven on the other.

R - Or the oven. Yes.

Lading tin?

R- Oh yes, aye.

Aye. Did the boiler have a tap on it?

R- Oh no. No, you used to lift the lid up and ladle it out.

That’s it aye. Some did though didn't they. Some did have a brass tap on the front, some of the more modern ones you know. And black lead and silver sand for t' steel.

R- Oh aye. No, emery paper.

Emery papery that’s it.

R- Aye. Fire irons you know, the fender, poker and tongs and then we used to have a little short poker on top of the boiler for raking the grate. Aye, and a top bar of course.

Aye, the top bar.

R- Top bar, and the top bar had, it had a brass rail across the end. It was steel you know. You used to scour that with emery and then polish the brass part with Brasso. And then you see, you just put the kettle on. And you’d have a black fire and then they'd pull it off and put it right and you'd shine it up.

[What John is talking about here when he mentions a black fire is a fire that has been recently replenished with a shovel full of coal and has not burned through. Open coal fires were very inefficient because when the coal was first put on the heat started to drive the volatiles off the coal but was not high enough to ignite them. This meant ‘green’ smoke coming off and then eventually a flame. Even then the flame was not hot enough to burn all the volatiles and this was when soot was deposited in the chimney. This soot also condensed on the top bar and the kettle blackening both. So the top bar had to be cleaned before this soot burned on to the metal. The ideal fire to cook on was bright bed of coals with no flame or smoke.]

How about cleaning the flues out round the oven, who did them?
(450)(15 min)

R- Me.

[The side oven was heated by a system of flues which allowed hot gases from the fire to surround the oven. Normally these were closed off by a damper at the top of the oven where the oven flue rejoined the chimney. The temperature of the oven was regulated by adjusting this damper. Before using the oven the bottom flue had to be raked out so it was not choked by ashes and clinker. There were small access lids on the other oven flues which could be lifted off and the soot and fine ash swept out of the flues. This gave better heat transfer.]

How often did you do them?

R- Oh every time you put the oven on. Aye.

Yes. Took all the lids off and give them a good scrape out.

R- Well we used to have our little coal rake like that you see, and you had this little short thing, lift it up, and then you got your shovel underneath and then you got your [rake] and scraped all your whatsit [ashes] out.

That's it, aye.

R- I used to clean out under the oven, that was when I got older of course. I mean afore that time I think mother used to do it. This is why we had the big coal rake, like with the fire irons there used to be tongs and this big coal rake.

Because they had to nearly always clean the flue out just before they baked didn't they, to make sure the oven were warming reight.

R- Oh yes, always, aye.

And when did she, when did she get her first gas stove?

R- Oh well, when we went into Barlass Street.

Where did it come from, do you know?

R- Eh that's something I can't tell you, but I can see it now, it was a big black iron one



Cast iron.

R- Yes.

Were it black leaded?

R- Yes. Wait a minute. Yes, aye it wasn't enamelled, Oh aye, aye.

Aye. So that had to be black leaded.

R - Oh aye, it had to be black leaded.

What is it Ernie Roberts said? I’ll have to bring an Ernie Roberts tape and play it to you sometime. Ernie Roberts said about their gas stove, he said .. and I asked him, I said “Where did it came from?” He said “I don't really know but I can see it now, stood there bow legged and black cast iron. Looking as if it could have taken all the punishment anybody could ever give it.” And I thought that was a good description of one of the old gas cookers.

R- Oh aye, but the thing is that the early ones that I can remember, like if you baked a cake in them they used to have a bit of a tang as though there was some fumes off the gas that got into the cake. And for years me mother never would bake cake in a gas oven, she'd always bake cake in the ...

In the side oven. Aye, that's it aye. (500)

R- The side oven, yes. Although we had a gas oven she used to do that. But on the other hand, you see, you had four rings on you know, you could be boiling the kettle on one and have potatoes on one and do your stew on another.

Great thing then.

R- It was, indeed. The quality of eating improved, you know when we got a gas cooker.

Yes. With the heat that came off the cooker. [I’d mis-heard John but I don’t think he noticed. SG]

R- You see? Oh aye. And then again the thing is you didn't have to keep messing your fireplace up. You see, if you were having a stew or something like that you see? And again as I say this was in an out kitchen you see, we had the sink and the gas cooker and we had a shelf up with all pothooks on and all the pots and plates were all on the shelf and then the dolly tub and what have you were all stuck in there you know. And your dining room was a dining room you know, you'd chairs in or a sofa…

Straightened the house up.

R- Oh yes, oh it was a big improvement.

So she baked her own bread once a week?

R - Twice.

Twice, that's it aye. She did aye, you were on about oven bottom cakes on Sunday weren't you?

R – Sunday aye.

Yes. And when she baked cakes, what kind did she bake?

R- Well, in the early days of course it was just flat sad cakes, or plain sad cake. If she’d no currants it were plain sad cake which you used to put a bit of butter on, margarine, and syrup or a bit of marmalade. But at one time you know, you couldn't have both butter and jam, you'd either to have butter or jam, I mean things were stringent you see.

Yes, that’s it. Did she make her own jam and marmalade or pickles?

R- Oh no..

Home made wine?

R- No, no.

Beer?

R- No.

Any of her own medicines?

R- No, beer was strictly out, I mean me mother was a strict teetotaller.

She was? Yes.

R - Oh aye. Aye me mother had a tendency to be religious in as much as ... she was a Salvationist for donkeys years you know. Oh aye.
(550)(20 min)

R- I mean I never have been but she always sent us to Sunday school and that were Methodist. See, this place that they're building at the bottom of the street here, that were known as Spring-Side Mission

Yes, one thing about that, wait a minute, hold on a minute, I thought that Salvationists were supposed to marry within the Army.

R- Ah, well I mean you can become Salvationist outside of the Army. Only if you were an officer. Aye, only if you were an officer, aye.

That's it. That's it aye, that's what I'm thinking of John. I knew there was something. I couldn’t just think what it were then.

R- Well, the Salvation Army used to be very strong, and in point of fact if you go past the old house here, there is a spare piece of ground that's railed round now you know, guard rails. Well the Salvation Army used to stand there and it was a wood place and it was quite strong at one time, quite strong. Of course I think that's why my mother started going because like it were just round the corner you see. But she was a Salvationist for donkeys years.

How did that go down with your father?

R- Oh me father were anything but. I mean, he kept us poor really with drinking and betting.

Do you think that probably it was a reaction against that sort of thing that turned your mother to Salvationism you know?

R- Probably, probably. Because you see I mean I say this, I mean I've been a lifelong teetotaller and I've never smoked and this was it, I saw what you might say, that much of it, that it turned me against it.

You very often get that John. Yes.

R- You see? And if anybody says anything I usually say “Well, my father supped my share!” You see?

Aye. What did you usually have for your breakfast?

R - Well if the fire were red we’d have toast, you see, but if not it were mainly jam and bread. Or on the other hand we used to eat a lot of dripping, you know from the butchers.

Bread and scrape.

R- Well I mean the thing is you see, it was savoury in as much as you put a bit of salt on that. (600)

That's it. Yes that's it.

R- And it tasted. ... We used to eat a lot of syrup you see. Not too much black treacle, because we didn't really care for that but syrup and jam, marmalade and margarine. Of course margarine was very cheap then, it's not like it is today you know, same price as butter.

Aye, that's it.

R- But I know I can remember for a special treat me mother used to buy herself occasionally a quarter of butter and she'd have that. Aye.

She did right. She did.

R- Aye, though mind you, I’ll tell you another thing we used to have a lot of, pobbies.

Aye. Right, bread pobs.

R- Aye, bread pobs. You know I mean she used to give us what she could and I mean we got middling of milk.

Aye. When you were doing bread pobs did you put them in just as they were or did you toast it first?

R- Oh no, just put them in as they were you know ...

Aye. I used to like them toasted you know, I used to like it toasted first.

R- Oh aye, well I mean, that

Toasted then cut up and then thrown in, aye.

R- No, the thing is, you used to get your bread, break it up and put your milk on. Then put a bit of sugar on, you see?

That's it. Aye.

R- And today I detest the sight of them.

Eh, do you know I still do, I still like a bit of toasted bread and milk, aye.

R- Oh no, I can't. Another thing I don't like is warm milk, I don't know whether it's because we had that much or what, I don't know.

Aye well. And what would you have for your dinner during the week?

R- Well it was always ready made in as much as .. unless say she was at home having a child or something like that and we used to fare very well then, she'd cook. But you see she used to come home at 12 o'clock from Whiteheads and we'd have to have, we’ll say potted meat or brawn you know. If she’d been cooking the night before, and she used to do occasionally, she'd make a dinner the night before you see, and you’d have that. But it was more or less ready made because she hadn't time, I mean to come from Whiteheads, and look after four of us, you see.

No, quite. How about Sunday? Sunday would be different?

R- Oh Sunday was the day. Like I said do you know. It was usually potato pie and rice pudding you see? I mean, with her being at home all day she'd get up and put a potato pie in, and then after she'd made a potato pie you know, she'd be baking bread. See she baked bread on a Sunday and oven bottoms. And the thing was that, like Sunday was the highlight in as much as you got a breakfast .. occasionally used to get bacon, you see, occasionally you used to get bacon.
(650)(25 min)

R- And eggs, oh we used to get plenty of eggs.

Bacon, were it home fed or Irish roll or what?

R- Well it were .. if father had gone taking coal up some of the farms you see he used to get a bit of home fed but that were fatty. But he’d eat it, you know. But we used to get plenty of eggs, and I know we've had many an egg cut between two of us. And then of course you see, in Summer time when they became very cheap we used to get a whole one apiece. And mind you, when we’d one egg we'd eat umpteen slices of bread to it you know, dipping it in the yolk. Aye.

Yes aye.

R- Bread was a staple diet. And of course you see you used to get cabbage and vegetables as they were.

Aye, spuds, aye.

R- Aye, but we never got a lot of meat, not a steak or anything like that. We’d get sausage and the cheaper cuts. Yes.

That’s it aye. How about, well it's something that doesn’t strike people nowadays, the number of different sorts of butchers there used to be in the old days. Like there used to be pork butchers, there used to be ordinary butchers and then of course there used to be that marvellous institution, the frozen meat shop.

R- Oh yes, the Argentine Meat Company.

That's it. That's its aye.

R- Well, their meat were always cheaper you know than the ordinary butchers.

Yes. If your mother were buying meat where would she go? Would she buy it at an ordinary butcher or at the Argentine, frozen ...

R- Well, the thing is, as far as I can remember she always went to the ordinary butchers. When we got old enough to send on errands we always used to go to the ordinary butchers. But she always, like they had a kind of favourite butcher if you will. You know “Go to Bob Harry's, you get a better do than you get at Jimmy Holden’s” you know.

Aye, that's it, yes.

R- And then there were a couple of pork butchers. There was a firm called Cotterill’s and they were pork butchers of course and they used to have pies and sausages and black puddings. Now Cotterill’s came from Ramsbottom and they used to make a good brawn. Now three doors higher up were a German firm, a German family called Hornung. In point of fact father Hornung was imprisoned in the first world war you know.

Aye, alien, yes.

R- Right at the beginning. (700)

Yes, a lot of them.

R- But you know, because they were Germans you know, they used to gather round t'shop and ... And yet George, the son, he got medals for bravery in the British Army. And of course, you see, gradually they, you know, they worked their way back. But they were Germans and of course they used to have these German sausages and that kind of thing

Can you remember trouble about them, you know? Can you remember trouble about him?

R- Oh yes. Oh aye, I mean they had to shut up had Hornung’s. Until, as I say, George, and he’d another brother, and I think, I'm not so sure whether the other brother wasn't killed and as soon as he was killed it died down. Do you know what I mean, he were killed with the British Army. But I knew George personally and he was a character, you know he was a typical pork butcher, I mean he used to go killing pigs and all this kind of thing. He was a character was George. But there was, and then again you know, the thing is I can remember these parades coming up Bank Street you know, with a band, and these soldiers marching, ‘Kitchener wants you’ and all this kind of thing. In point of fact I had an uncle killed in 1916. Oh I remember very vividly, because I was called after him, I mean me middle name's William and he were called William Greenwood, and he was killed when he was 19 and he'd been in the Army. In point of fact he was in the Territorials before the war.

Yes. So he’d be the first to go.

R.- Well he was. And he was only 19 when he was killed, June 10th 1916.

Terrible thing the first world war, John.

R - Oh aye, yes.

Terrible. A lot worse than any of the others we've had for the people that were in it. I'm sure it was.

R- Oh yes. Ayes aye.

Anyway, what did you usually have for your tea?

R- Well, we’d have black pudding and peas, and I’ll tell you what used to be one of our favourite dishes, tripe and onions. You see the tripe dresser, who sold nothing else only tripe and black pudding and peas you know, when he was slicing his tripe up, if he'd have any bits he used to put then in a corner and we'd go and get two pennorth of tripe bits and two pound of onions, put them in the frying pan again over the fire and put some salt in, and that kind of thing and we used to have that. And .. on the other handy of course, occasionally, it'd be corned beef
(750)(30 min)
or something like that ready made. And like I say, the chip shop you know, we used to have a lot of chips.

How much were fish and chips then?

R- Oh well you used to get a pennorth of chips and then you got three ha’penny worth of chips and then you got two pennorth of chips and fish were twopence and a meat pie was twopence ha’penny, that’s two and a half old pence.

Would you say… No, I’ll not ask you like that, because that might just bias your answer. How about fish then? Were it all right?

R - Oh yes, yes. In point of fact I can remember there used to be a couple of fish stalls on Rawtenstall market. Now Rawtenstall market was open until nine o'clock at Saturday night then. And of course if the ... and the same with the butchers you see, they were open while nine o'clock. Now then if they had fish left, it got about ten to nine, quarter to nine and they’d, you know, put it up, “Give me a shilling for this!” you know to get rid of it. And oh, aye, dozens of times we've had fish. All day Sunday you know, they've got say a couple of shilling's worth and it's made umpteen meals because they wanted to get shut of it. Or on the other hand there used to be a couple of butchers, I can remember them very well on Rawtenstall market, who again, come half past eight .. mind you the market was the focal point of Saturday you see? And of course they did more business after tea than they did all day, although they were open all day they did more business after tea because when folks were working while twelve you know, they’d go home, do their cleaning up and then go to the market after tea. And these two butchers used to vie with one another for selling meat cheap. You see, and the thing is that I know me father's been down and me mother’s been down occasionally, and if there were no meat going cheap you had no dinner, you see? But this was it, and if you got a nice piece, you know, cheap, you were all right for meat.

Aye. Did you have supper before bed time?

R - No. Not in the early stages. You might have had a jam butty see, a jam butty, and a drop of milk, or even a drink of water. They never used to send you to bed with nothing, but at the same time you didn't get a supper like the type of thing today where you'll have a sandwich and that kind of thing.

That's it yes. Did the family have a garden or an allotment?

R- Oh no. Terraced houses.

Yes. So no hens, pigs, ducks or goats ... No?

R- No.

Did you have pudding every day?

R- Oh no.

Well, how often did you have a pudding?

R- About once a week. And sometimes not that.

That'd be rice pudding nearly sure would it?

R- Aye. Unless, as I say, mother had a change and she made beef puddings you know. I mean steak pudding. Used to roll the dough out, put your meat in, tied in a rag and boil it for hours. And then we'd have one of them and apple pudding, and boiled spuds you know? Oh a real feast. Aye.

Aye, aye I bet they still are. How much milk do you think your mother got a day?

R- About that I wouldn't know. I should certainly say I can always remember there being at least one pint.

What was it used for mainly?

Well tea. Yes. Mainly used for tea.

Yes. And what fruit did you eat?

R- Well, apples, oranges. Well, any fruit really, apples, oranges, pears.

How about vegetables, which one did you have most? Cabbage you'd have a lot of ...

R- Well, in season you see. I mean potatoes always, cabbage, swede, we used to eat a lot of swede, and of course dried peas and beans we used to get ...
(35 min)(850)

That's something. You've just mentioned dried peas. Now, I'm interrupting you there, John, you've mentioned dried peas and it just brings something to me mind that a lot of people don't realise now that, I mean, at one time like greengrocery and vegetables, there was a season for everything wasn't there?

R- Oh yes, oh yes.

I mean now you can get cabbage all the year round you know?

R- Oh aye. Well of course it is this deep freeze and that kind of thing ...

And stuff coming from abroad, I mean ...

R- Yes and then again they're more sophisticated in the methods of keeping it in as much as you can get ... Well, I mean tomatoes that won’t ripen, now I've some in my greenhouse, if I bring them in, put them in flannel, I can keep them while Christmas you see and they'll probably be ready round about five or six weeks from now. Well, I mean, there were no such methods of keeping you know. Where they've now got sophisticated methods of keeping food stuffs so that ... like there's no seasonal shortages but I still like dried peas and beans.

Oh well, I do.

R- And I’ll tell you another thing too that we used to have, and I forgot: to mention it, spare rib, you see?

Oh aye! Well…

R- I mean many a time me mother'd boil some peas with spare ribs or a ham shank you see? Now that used to be .. or brisket of beef, that used to be a fair do.

Aye, even a good marrowbone.

R- Oh aye. Oh well, now in winter time, I've mentioned the great two handled washing pan…

That’s it.

R- It used to be on the hob. Now in Barlass Street where we lived we had like an iron grid that used to fit up the side of the oven, of the boiler. And of course you see, if you wanted to put a pan on you pulled this grid down

Pulled it down, that's it.

R- And it rested so that you had a fire, a draft right underneath. Well, you used to put the two handle washing pan on there you see. And I’ll tell you another thing we used to do too, sheep’s heads. Get a sheep’s head from Jimmy, and of course you see you used to make broth.

Sheep’s head.

R- Jimmy’s.

Jimmy, aye.

R- Yes, sheep’s head, aye. You see you’d get carrots and peas and cabbage and barley, lentils ...

That's it. Split peas, aye…

R- And of course the thing is then you'd put a few suet dumplings in you know.

Aye. ‘Little Lads’.

R- And I've seen us live off that for about three days you know, because we'd made that much. Oh dear!

Aye. Can you, there is a list of foods here, I'll just read them out, and just tell me how often you had them or if you never had them, or anything like that. See what you make of them. Bananas?

R- Yes.

How often?

R- Well it just depends when they were in season and how dear they were. I mean we used to go round, I mean do you know, when they are going off a bit. They've got a bit ripe, well they sell them cheaper and we used to get a lot of them. Aye.

Whose were they, can you remember?

R - Oh well I couldn't tell you that, but Fyffe’s has been going donkeys years.

That’s it aye. Rabbit?

R- Oh we used to have rabbit, aye rabbit pie. A rabbit and a pound of shin of beef in a rabbit pie. That were good.

Where did the rabbit come from?

R- Well we used to buy them on the market. Aye.

Yes. Yes, that's it.

R- I mean there were no, you see the thing is that although there's quite a lot of rabbits and hares round here now, at one time everybody caught that many that they were scarce.

Kept them down. Yes. How about fried food John?

R- Fried food. Well as I say, we used to get bacon occasionally and sausages and such. But, like it wasn’t a regular thing, I mean we weren't one of them for bacon and egg breakfasts. No.

Fish.

R - Well as I say we used to have fish fairly regular. Because there used to be one type I can remember. It comes off the cod, you know when they have cut the head off there's a piece left that they always cut out. I've forgotten what they call them now. but my mother used to get them. They were cheap, and boil them, we used to have boiled fish.
(900)(40 min)

Yes. What other sort of fish can you think of that you used to have?

R- Oh, herrings and mackerel, cod, gurnets, we used to have gurnets but the exotic fish types like plaice, very very rare. Unless they were small dabs you know where you'd happen get about six for a bob. Then there were one apiece and the eldest got the biggest you know. Aye.

Cheese?

R- Yes we used to have cheese 'cause we always had to have a mousetrap. But yes we used to have cheese, but not a lot.

How did you have it usually, cooked or uncooked?

R- Oh uncooked. Unless of course again, say that it was a few days old you know, we used to have it under one of those glass cheese dishes, earthenware you know with a top on, and it were getting a bit dry. She'd get some onions, frying pan, cheese and onions.

That's it. Cow heel?

R - Oh yes, cow heel stew, cow heel and shin beef. Or again, cow heel and shin beef, you see.

Tripe.

R – Oh I used to have tripe regular. In point of fact, as a young man I used to do a little bit of P.T. you know, physical culture and of course you see tripe was supposed to be good for you and I had a standing order, this is when I was working mind you, for half a pound of tripe every night, for years.

Is that right?

R- Yes. And brown bread. Tripe and brown bread.

What sort of tripe, honeycomb, seam or what?

R- Oh, seam.

Seam?

Well I used to vary it. Well, it was nice thick seam. And the thing was that with it being a standing order, six days a week, I always used to get the pick if you see what I mean. Seam and some fat in you see. Or occasionally I'd tell him “I'll have some beef tripe tomorrow night you know, just for a change or rag as we used to call it. Aye, oh I liked tripe.

Trotters?

R- Oh yes trotters. Aye, we used to get trotters.

Black pudding?

R - Black pudding and peas, yes.

And you've already said you had a fair amount of eggs.

R- Oh aye, a fair do of eggs.

Where did that come from? Where did you get them from John?

R - Well usually they bought them on the market you see.

When they bought them on the market, would it he farmers that were selling them or would it be off like…

R – Oh, mainly farmers or, well, both types.

Tomatoes?

R – Yes, aye we used to have tomatoes in season.

Grapefruit?

R - Oh no, never.

Never.

R – Oranges yes, but not grapefruit.

Sheep’s head, of course .

R – Aye.

Did you ever have any tinned food?

R - We were nearly square from eating chunks.

Is that right?

R- Oh aye. I mean you used to get a flat tin of chunks for sixpence ha’penny and that would be a sweet at Sunday tea time.

Aye, pineapple chunks.

R - Pineapple chunks and Carnation milk.

That's it, yes.

R- Aye, I still like them.

Can you ever remember ever having any tinned food that was had?

R – Well, Let’s say this, I wouldn’t say so but yet I do remember on one occasion, when that uncle that was killed was on leave. In point of fact they were having a bit of what they call a farewell do for him you see? We weren’t invited, not as children, but me grandma sent some of the stuff up and we all suffered a bout of food poisoning. But let’s say this, mother was rather meticulous. If there was anything that was the least bit suspicious it was out. You know, I mean there were no fridges to keep the meat in you know. Well you got a joint at Saturday and cooked it and by Tuesday it were getting a bit rank you know. Either give it to the cat or throw it away.

How about what you drank. Tea?

R- Tea, or we used to drink a lot of cocoa. Tea, cocoa and a bit of coffee. But mainly tea or cocoa. Occasionally Ovaltine. But there used to be one, a malted milk, it were like the forerunner of Horlicks. Well, occasionally if we weren't well, you know if we were a bit off colour or something like that, she’d get some of that. But not as a regular do, it wouldn’t always be in the house.



SCG/22 July 2003
7,588 words.


LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/SB/03

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON DECEMBER 2ND 1978 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


I'm just having a bit of difficulty with this tape, because John's being a bit obstreperous this morning! Now then John, we'll carry straight on with where we finished the other day and if you remember we were talking about food. So what did you have for Christmas dinner.

R- Well it varied. Usually we had fowl of some kind, and that was the main item and when funds permitted, Christmas pudding. Of course the point was that in them days mother used to prepare Christmas puddings you know, put them in a basin covered with a cloth and keep them for weeks and weeks you see? And of course that always come out at Christmas lunch you see? But I mean as for anything extraordinary, like soup was an unknown item. I mean you just sat down to the main course and then you had your sweet and of course you got mince pies and biscuits. Providing that, of course, we had the means to get it. We didn't always have the means to get it.

Can you remember any bad Christmases John? (50)

R- I can indeed! One in particular which I mentioned to you before. This was when my father was ill and there were four children in the house and me mother had to come off work with him and the only money we had was the money that our sister, who was working half time brought in. She was working half time as it was in them days. She was half a day in school and half a day at work. And the only money we had coming in was father’s ten shillings from National Health and the little bit my sister earned. And with six mouths to feed I mean, it was a very bleak outlook I can tell you. And I mean the thing was that at that time I was taking papers. I had a paper round morning and night. It was the custom, well, people used to give you little Christmas gifts for taking their papers, everybody expects service nowadays. But that particular night on the night round, I knocked at every door and wished them Merry Christmas. And quite honestly people were in those days not quite as affluent as they are today. Anyhow I did fairly well with not being cheeky, which is not my nature, and I took this money to me mother. And then she went out and bought some shin beef and a rabbit and a few oranges and apples. And then she said to me, I can remember it now, did I mind if she bought a bit of something for the younger children if there was any money left? I said I didn’t mind. I was about twelve at the time so I wasn’t very old. So she went out and spent it and that day of course it was rabbit pie for dinner and that was it. And father died that night actually, just turned midnight he died. But I’ve never forgotten that. (100)

And that was at Christmas?

R - That was actually on Christmas Eve.

Now you were twelve year old when that happened. Now I mean, obviously, I find that a very touching little story and all the rest of it. I say touching, but you know that’s the sort of thing that makes the world go round. But it seems to me that you were acting very responsibly for a twelve year old. Now would you say that the conditions that you were reared in, obviously short of money and whatever you had you had to work for, did it bring, for want of a better way of saying it, an adult frame of mind earlier than children nowadays. In other words do you think that you were more adult at twelve years old than a child would be now?
(5 min)(150)

R- Oh yes without a doubt. Because when you think that both mother and father are out to work and you had younger brothers and sisters, you had to accept the responsibility for looking after them like. In the interim period before me mother came home from work. And of course, taking them to school and then home again. And then again, it was a facet of family life that when we came home from school we did the washing up and such chores as we were able to, ever since I could remember. Because I had a sister older than me and she used to look after me mainly until the others came on the scene and then of course she adopted the role of little mother in between mother being at work.

That's it. Yes.

R- But we always did what we could in the house, like washing up and you know, mopping the door step. You'd to keep your door step clean in spite of everything.

That's it. No matter what else happened, the door step had to be clean.

R - Oh yes. And the window bottoms of course. You used to put this rubbing stone on.

Aye, donkey stone, aye. What were your favourite foods when you were a lad John?

R - Well, I never had any favourite food, it was a case of getting what you could in the house. It was very rare you were able to pick and choose. And I mean if mother bought something for dinner that was it. There was no saying “Well I don't want this.” Or “I don’t want that.”

That's it.

R - You had to have what you were given. But I mean, special concessions you know, occasionally. Say when me mother used to make apple pies as I've told you before and that kind of thing. They didn’t use to last long you see?

No. I can well believe that John. And do you know, one of the things in connection with people living such affluent lives nowadays. Now, I have often said that I think one of the finest things that could happen is for wartime rationing to come back for three months. I think it would be a fine thing for the country. They wouldn't like it but I think it’d be a fine thing.

R- Well, you have a point there because, let's face it, I mean people do eat far more than they ever need to. (200)

And they waste far more.

R - Well, I was going to say, the variety of food is such that they only have a little bit of each course and then the other is thrown away.

Yes. If things were really bad, you know, if you were you know… If you were just in a bad period what would be the sort of things that you'd eat then if you were really hard up.

R - Well ...

In other words, what was the level that you got down to?

R- Well, it’s rather a difficult one is that because I mean, there was always bread and jam. But again you see, as I’ve told you, their were times when it was either bread or butter, but not butter and jam you see, which today, I mean, you wouldn’t, well I don't anyway, if I'm having toast I want butter and marmalade, you see? But this was the way it was. But as I say, as regards food we more or less had to have what we were given. The odd occasion when say you went to a party or something like that. If you were lucky enough to he invited. For instance, let me give you an example. When I went into the mill, this particular firm, every year they used to give the employees a dance. It was kind of the highlight of the working year was this, they used to have a dance and of course there was a buffet there. Well, I mean to say, when you used to see all this food and that kind of thing you used to go to town. But even then, I'm speaking now up to about the age of 17, of course we went into the mill at 14 you know. But of course as we got a bit older and more money coming in, we were able to vary our own routine diet more than what we had when we were really put to. Mind you, let me say that I don't think we
(250)(10 min)
were what you might call the every day run of the mill family. I mean for instance if the father was a tradesman like a plumber or a joiner or something like that, of course they got more money for their wages. But with us of course, I mean it didn’t work. So of course, your diet varied according to the means. You used to make a special effort as I say like at Christmas when we had the money. We used to buy dates and nuts and raisins and oranges and apples. But normally we’d have oranges but you wouldn’t have nuts and dates.

One of the things I’ve come across is the fact that at that time a lot of people, well I say a lot of people, there were people whose diet was so bad that they could be said to have been suffering from malnutrition and you got things like Rickets and things like that. For instance now, when I see somebody aged over say 60, and they have bandy legs I automatically think of Ernie Roberts the tackler at Barlick, because he has bandy legs and that was caused by the fact that they were very badly fed when they were children. And he said something to me one day, He said “You know, None of Nutters ever had bandy legs!” Well, they were mill owners.

R- No, aye no.

And you know it's a very telling comment. Do you think that you actually suffered because of your diet, did your health suffer at all?

R - Oh yes. I mean as a child I can remember having such things as boils and of course it used to be quite common to go down the street and see children with spots on their lips you know, scabs and in point of fact there was a local chemist who made an ointment and it was quite common for people to go down to Lawrence Lord and get some Number 9 ointment, it’ll clear them up. But actually, while it might have cleared the spots up it didn’t clear the cause of the spot you see? Oh yes, it used to be quite common to see people with spots and that on their lips. Even at school; this used to happen you know.

How about teeth John?

R- Oh teeth. Well you’d go to the bottom of the street here, there are two old houses just across the road, 1749 (?), and there used to be one chap there by the name of John Willie Booth.

Good Lancashire name!

R- They used to call him the Tanner Ripper see? You'd go there with a tooth ache, his wife would hold you in the chair, and he’d take the tooth out for sixpence, no anaesthetic or anything like that. [I had exactly the same treatment in Barnoldswick, including the wife holding my head, in the mid 1960s.] They used to call him the Tanner Ripper. And he lived in that house there. Well, teeth of course, the thing was that until you got more adult… Well as far as I was personally concerned it wasn’t until I started taking up a little bit of physical culture and this kind of thing, which I used to do and still do, that such things as like teeth and various other health thing were taken into consideration. For instance, for years, I’ve never eaten anything except brown bread. And this was one of the things that stemmed from taking up this physical culture. But of course into keeping your teeth clean and other bodily arrangements and it went on from there. One of the things we used for cleaning teeth was soot and salt, that was the poor man’s toothpaste. We used to get soot from the back of the fire, the fine soot of course and mix it with salt and clean your teeth with that. And I might say it polished your teeth up as well as, if not better than a lot of these so-called concoctions we use today.

Yes, I’ve heard that before. Did you use a toothbrush John? Yes? Fairly affluent, a toothbrush!

R- Oh yes, you used a toothbrush. Before that you used a bit of rag, just get it damp, dip it into the salt and soot and rub your teeth round and that sort of thing. And then of course you bought a toothbrush and that were it.

Did your dad come home for all his meals?

R- Yes. I mean with being a coal carter locally. And of course the stables were only about 300 yards away from where we lived in any case. He came home to all his meals. Irregular you know, in as much as if they had a late train, they'd so many loads of coal to get out during the day and if they were behind schedule he’d be half an hour, even an hour late for his dinner you see.

Which’d make it hard for your mother.

R- Well the thing was, with mother working, it was nearly always a cold dinner you know.

Yes, that’s it aye. Did he always have the same food as the rest of you or did he have something special?

R - Oh no, well, he used to get the little tit-bits you see. I mean in as much as he had to keep his strength up to keep him working. But no, he used to get like extra tit-bits that we couldn't afford. For instance I he’d have a piece of steak when we wouldn’t you see. I mean he used to have the little bits of extra. Whereas with us going to school we didn’t need extra sustenance, we did actually but we didn’t get it, let’s put it that way. But like for instance, when mother baked or if she bought something where we could all join at it he had the same as us. But I can remember the times when he used to have that little bit of something extra.

Did your mother ever go short to feed the rest of you?

R- Oh undoubtedly, undoubtedly. The thing was that I honestly thought that through personal neglect, I mean me mother contracted rheumatism at what was a fairly early age you see. But yes, I’m sure she did, I'm sure she did. Aye. I mean father came first and then the children after.

Did she normally eat her meals with you?

R- Yes, aye. We all ate together, yes. And you used to stand at the table in those days, there wasn’t enough chairs to go round. Aye.

That’s it aye. That’s something I’ve come across in Barnoldswick and a lot of people don't believe this but up to about 1925 it was quite common for children never to sit at the table from when they came out of their high chair until they started work.

R- That's true, yes.

Yes. Was that the same with you?

R- Oh yes. We used to stand at the table, yes.

Yes. Yes well, we'll come on to table manners and things like that, that's a subject all of its own. Who usually did the shopping for the family, John?

R- Oh me mother. Except that when we were old enough she used to send us on errands and things like that. I mean from being about maybe seven or eight you did errands in as much as like, going for the meat, going to the greengrocers, go down to the market and get this you see. And of course the thing is that me mother hadn't a lot of time to go you know on shopping expeditions like it is today where Saturday morning is devoted to going and buying in, going round the market and it’s a semi-outing today, is to go shopping. And I mean they don’t think anything about being out shopping for two or three hours, because there is so much variety and so much to see whereas in those days you used to get a list. And another thing, in those days we used to have what we called a ‘shop’, in as much as we went to one place for our groceries. Mother would write a list out and we’d take it down to the grocers and he would make it up. Well you don’t get a lot of that nowadays, I mean with supermarkets and what have you. You go round and select your own. (450)

Yes, that’s it.

R- But in those days you know, the small grocer particularly, or even the greengrocer, you used to have one shop where you went week after week after week,

Yes, funnily enough, my wife still shops like that. I think it’s a good way to shop really. But how often did, with you saying that, did your mother like having one good do during the week or how?

R- Oh yes, always on a Friday.

Fridays yes.

R- Friday or Saturday morning you see if they got paid at Friday. You know she'd pay the shop bills, we used to pay from week to week you see?

That's it, yes. Where did she get her vegetables John? (20 min)

R- Well, at the most convenient place. Sometimes on the market. Of course, you see, the market being handy. In point of fact you see you had a greater selection on the market say than on the street where [you went] to one shop, but we used to go anywhere.

Yes. How about meat.

R- Again we used to have like one butcher in a way but at the same time you know that people are a bit fickle, in as much as if she sent us for some meat and the chappie gave us a lot of fat which is a thing we don’t like, and we don't like to this day, she wouldn't send us there again. She’d send us somewhere where she thought that children wouldn't be taken advantage of.

Then you got your groceries at one shop. Which shop did you get your groceries at? Which were the shop?

R- Well if we went to a private grocer he was called Tommy Taylor. And he, mind you in those days in the shopping street in Bank Street there would be about, what, seven or eight, probably more, grocers, whereas today I think there’s one.

How about the Co-op?

R- Well she joined the Co-op. Well we were grown up anyway, you see? And she didn't join the blue Co-op, she joined the Red Co-op, what were the difference I really don't know except they were different societies in this town. (500)

Aye, yes.

R- That big derelict building, that big derelict building in the bottom of the street, now that was one of the Co-ops. I think it were the Blue Co-op and they built that building and it used to be, really before my time, it used to be a kind of place where there were shops and they used to have a concert hall you know, magic lantern and all this kind of thing, all in one building. But beside that there were two more, there were the Coal Terrace and then there were what they used to call the blue Co-op. Mind you they all had branches scattered about.

I don’t think I’ve ever come across that before John, two Co-ops. You know, two different Co-ops in one town.

R- There were two Co-ops here up to what, 15 years ago.

There you are.

R – And two distinct…

Yes, I understand you.

R- You know, Co-ops. There was Rawtenstall Co-operative Society and the other was Cloughfold Co-operative. Well we used to go to Cloughfold because they paid a bit more divi [dividend] than Rawtenstall you see.

That’s it, a bit better divi, aye. Would you say there was any difference in the prices, you know the quality, between, like street corner shops in Bank Street and what they were down in the middle of town?

R- Well I think sometimes that the quality was, I don’t think there was any difference in quality but sometimes the prices were that little bit cheaper. And then when we went to the Co-op of course, you know…

Cheaper in the town or…

R- At the Co-op, the Co-op.

Yes, aye.

R- You see, and then again the thing was that, every quarter you know you used to get your divi you see. And the thing is that that used to be very acceptable at times, particularly say at Christmas.

How much did they use to pay out?

R- Oh, it got up to what was it in those days, half a crown in the pound you see which was quite an item. [for every pound you spent you got half a crown back, a dividend of 12 1/2 %]

Yes. Oh aye, in Earby they once got up to the magnificent figure of three shilling in the pound which must have been marvellous you know.

R- Oh yes. Well the, the Blue Co used to pay two shillings, you see, and then the Coal Terrace used to pay two and six, you see and of course you see when you went there for your clothes and that kind of thing. And as I say, it used to be quite an item did this divi, it were like an extra wage in one week.

Yes. The ordinary grocer shop that you went to regularly, did they as a matter of course, would they give credit?

R- Well, there used to he a lot of this on the slate at one time but as far as we were concerned, as I say me mother used to go and pay once a week, but, she never…

How did the system work John, if you were, if you were working on the slate. How did the system work.

R- Well I really can't tell you a lot about that, but I mean, up to recent times I do know one family who have been in the shop, like a little shop where we get our bread, and they've come in, “Take five pounds off that.” and that being a bill. And I mean, knowing the family personally I know that they went to this shop, got what they wanted when they wanted. And then of course you see, the thing is that… I mean five pounds, and there were four in this particular family, it was quite an item you see.

Yes. How about pawnshops, John?

R- Oh yes, aye. Well there used to be two pawnshops. There was one chappie called Herbert Catlow and he lived not far from where we lived and us lads we used to rag him unmercifully, in as much as we'd knock at his door and run away you know and all that kind of lark. But the pawnshop, and then there was another, Foster's they were called and they used to do thriving business. Of course you see, Monday was always the busiest day, they spent up at week end and they'd take the Sunday suit in to pawn you see, to raise money for during the week. And then of course they'd get it out at Friday when they got the wages. But, OK it used to be quite a thriving business and it…

What do you yourself think about the pawnshop system, like do you think it was ...

R- Well, you see there's one aspect of life that you haven’t mentioned and that is unemployment. And I mean ...

Yes well we get, do you know we do get, but anyway that’s right don't ...

R - But short time working was quite common in those days of course and then .. the point would be that if you were working a week and stopped a week, the week that you were working, actually was the worse week because you had no wage.

That's right. (600)

R- So that they used to take their clothes in to pawn or whatever their valuables and then when they got a wage they used to get them out again if they could afford it. But you used to be able to leave them, was it six months? And then if you didn't redeem them in six months time, of course, they were sold.

Yea, that's it, forfeited pledge.

R- Yes, forfeited pledge.

That's it aye. What were the rate they charged, can you remember?

R- I can't really tell you that no.

No, it doesn't matter John, it doesn't matter.

R- Well, if I remember rightly, and I don't know a lot about this, you used to take, say just for argument sake you'd take a watch in, and say “Will you give me a pound on that?” Mind you the thing might have been worth three or four pounds, and of course he'd lend you a pound. And then whatever rate he charged, I don't know, no.

Yes, it doesn’t matter, that’s all right John. What would you say was the attitude of the people who used the pawnshops, notice I say people that used the pawnshops, towards the pawnshops, do you understand what I mean?

R- Yes. Well let me say the general attitude of people to the pawnshops were, if you could get in at the back door so much the better in ...

In other words if people couldn't see you going in. Yes.

R- That’s right. I mean they the thing is that people didn't like to be seen going in the pawnshop you see.

Yes. And was it possible to do that John?

R- Well it was at one, and the other one I don't know a lot about it. The one nearest to us which was on, well it was on the street down at the bottom here you see.

Was that Catlow’s?

R- And as you were walking up and down, you know in your ordinary course of events you’d see people going in and coming out you see? Well they used to have a back door, you used to be able to go in at the back door and they said there were more people used the back than used the front, because it…

Yes. I can understand that. Do you think that there were, perhaps, you know, a sort of a sense of .. perhaps an element of shame that they had to go.

R - Oh definitely yes. Definitely yes. I mean the thing is that even in those days people had their pride.

Very much so I should say yes. Perhaps even more than nowadays John.

R- Yes. I mean today the attitude has completely changed. Whereas in those days, although you were poor, you were proud. And mind you, let me say this, the religious influence in those days was a lot stronger than it is today. And I think that has a lot to do with it, that people’s consciences were more in evidence than what. Well people, the conscience of people is today that ... Although you were poor you see you used to have a qualm of conscience if, like you were doing anything underhand. Or, on the other hand, you didn't reveal your poverty, but yet people had it, because it… Well it’s pride really, pride. (650)

Would you say that there was ever .. now, wait a minute. I've got to put this very carefully because I don't want to trigger you. If people were temporarily more hard up than they were usually, would you say that they tried to, did they try to conceal it from say, other people in the street in any way, you know, would they ...

R- Well, I should say yes. But at the same time there was in the people a different attitude to their neighbours to what there to today. For instance I mean, if Mrs So and So were sick or ill, right, make her a rice pudding and take it down you see. Or if you like, say there was some where the children, she couldn’t make the children a meal, fetch all the children into your house and feed them with yours. Or on the other hand, “ Can we do you any errands?” you know. Always this kind of thing, particularly say on terminal illness. People would sit up all night with you and this kind of thing. There was this kind of fellow feeling which was very pronounced, because I know for a fact, well I know meself, I’ve gone out in other lad’s clothes because the lad himself had grown out of them. Rather than put them on the rag cart people would send them down. I mean, I’ve worn loads of cast offs.

There again, that's another thing we'll get round to, clothing. But would you say it was perhaps true to say that the harder up people were, the more they stuck together? Was it as simple as that?

R- Oh yes. The thing is I it was common to most people, and so as I say, there was this feeling of camaraderie that… and it used to operate and show itself in lots and lots of ways.

Shared experience, Yes.

R- Oh yes.

I once heard it said, well, I didn’t hear it, it was in a book by a fellow called Roberts, ‘The Classic Slum’. He said that, it was about Salford, the same time that you are talking about. Very bad conditions, the same sort of thing that you were talking about but perhaps worse in some ways in Salford. But he said that one of the things that struck him most as a child was the fact that people didn’t really like other people in the house when they were eating a meal. Because if they were eating a bit better than the rest of the street they didn’t want them to know because it seemed like showing off. And if they were eating worse they didn’t want them to know about it. Now would you say that that was right?

R- Oh yes, it was one of the things me mother instilled into us as children. If you go into a house, and they are having their meal, any meal, you came out. You never sat and watched them eat, no. No, I mean it was one of the things and it was kind of instilled into us, you didn't. And particularly if you went in a house and you come back home, you never talked about what they were having. I mean, I can hear me mother now saying “That'll do! If you can’t mind your own business, keep out.”

That’s it.

R- You see, I mean it. And likewise, if neighbours come in and it was meal time I’ve known us be waiting for them to go before we started. Before they put the meal out. Yes.

Yes. Did your mother, or your father, or you know, did you ever use the pawnshop?

R- On the odd occasion yes, when we were really put to. Because let me say this, that the National Health Service, just to give you an instance, wasn't like it is today. And I mean, the doctor had to he paid. Well, we sent for the doctor to come to my brother that was very ill, and he wanted a pound before he’d look at the child.

A pound?

R- Oh yes. Aye, he wanted a pound. The point was you see that even the doctor we paid so much a week to. And it must have been that we had a bill on

I see what you mean.

R- You see? And to fetch him out, he wanted a pound. So, well, pawnshop.

What went?

R - I really can't tell you. But mother had a silver teapot that was given to her from the Sunday School where she went before she was married you see. It was solid silver. Now whether that went I don’t know but I remember that. But I remember that occasion because after the doctor had gone I had to chase up to the surgery to get some medicine for the child. (750)

Was there anything, we'll get back to food a little bit now, was there anything that you ate when you were young that you can’t get nowadays?

R- Well, I wouldn't say that there's anything that you can't get but you don't see as much of it. For instance I mean, the pork shop that I've mentioned to you before used to prepare a concoction what they used to call 'savoury duck'. Now just what was in them, there was an element of meat, but what else I don't know. Well, I mean, we used to buy a lot of these. Mind you the pork butcher would have trays and trays of them you see. I mean it used to be three ha’pence you see. The equivalent what, of one penny now and you used to buy these, and they'd be about two inches square, and about three inches high. Well you used to slice it up and put it on your bread for sandwiches. Well you don't see much of that. And Polony which was quite a common thing of course, black puddings have always been with us you see but apart from that I can't just think of anything particularly that you can't get today.
(35 min)(800)

Can you think of anything that you could get then and you can still get now, but the quality has deteriorated? Would you say that any food's, the quality is deteriorated since the times we are talking about, 1920 say.

R- Well, let's say this, it's become more sophisticated. For instance we used to get, which is a thing I haven't mentioned before, a lot of Quaker oats you see. And Quaker oats were the thing. And of course you used to make porridge out of it. Well I mean, the oats themselves were quite large as though they had just been rolled from the whole grain. Whereas today of course they are all ground up and chopped up, you know until you get a right smooth porridge kind of thing but in those days the oats were large, because what she used to do occasionally if we had Quaker oats she'd get some and mix some sugar in and put them in little bags or in paper, and we used to nibble this, you know, take a bit to school, Quaker oats and sugar.

That's it, aye. One of the things that I was thinking about John is something which I think was far better in those days was the fact that just about every town had its railway station and just about every town had its fish train and the fish used to come in, and it used to be, you know, really fresh off the dock whereas now it's mostly frozen fish. Could you say that fish then was better than it is now?

R- Oh well definitely yes, in as much as it had more taste. You see, I've mentioned to you about being down, you know, to catch the paper train. Well the paper train was also the fish train.

That’s it aye.

R- You know, the fish carriage, it was a passenger train, was at the back. And they used to be humping these boxes of fish out and of course they were packed in ice, but it was fresher, definitely. Well I should think so.

Yes, straight off the dock. I don't think there's much doubt about that John, I think that’s probably one of the areas where there has been a deterioration because you know it used to be a very, very well organized thing, the transport of fish and newspapers.

R- Oh yes.

You see it was straight to the door. Have you any idea how much housekeeping money your mother would have for a week in them days?

R- Well, if you said altogether two pounds to keep six of us. This is after the end of the first world war.

Yes like roughly 1920.

R- After the 1920's. Well I mean for instance, I started work in 1923 at the age of 14 years. Well, of course as each child started work, a family became more affluent.

That’s it.

R- But up to that time, up to about 1923, I should think that she had about two pounds a week, give and take a bit, because I mean, during that time she bore six children you see.

Yes. Interesting point there, John. You said that when you started working the family became more affluent. I don't know whether I've mentioned this to you before, but it's something I keep coming across. Would you say that it was true to say that probably the best, the most affluent time a lot of families would have was when they'd got say three or four children working and tipping up at home?

R- Oh yes, definitely.

Yes. Now I’ve heard it said that that was the time when a lot of families bought their houses.

R- I was just going to say that.

Yes, is that right?

R- The thing is you could buy a house then for about £150 to £200 you know, depending on the size, and the locality and that sort of thing. But this was the occasion that people used to save their money because I can remember after me father died and there were three of us working you see? Mother worked as well and.. well, we got to the stage where we moved into a better house, we got the electricity in and we got a gramophone, and we got a wireless you know. And of course we could go and buy a suit once a year, and that kind of thing.
(850)(40 min)

Living the life of Reilly John.

R- Well, but this was the thing you see as you got working, and of course mum, me mother you know, got to the stage where she always kept, when she was able to have enough food in so that if we had a bad time we could carry on for a while. And it's a system that pertained, I mean my two sisters today, even I now could put you on a meal. Mind you it’d be out of a tin, but we always got to this stage where…

Yes, that's a very good point, that, John.

R- ... where she kept enough in so that if we, well if times were hard. Just let me give you a quote. When the second war started and rationing was introduced we had enough sugar in the house to last us for about three or four months without any cutting down of ...

Would you say John that there was an element in that of, your mother had been hard up for so long that it’d make her feel very secure to know that she had a good do of stuff in the pantry. It’d be a great thing for her, couldn't it, you know?

R- Well, that's a point, a good point is that. Because our house was one of those places where anybody would drop in and they'd be sure of a meal. Because I mean a case in point that I can think of, where we had some friends who lived in Blackpool. Well they'd come over to see me mother, we never knew they were coming style of thing, but yet when they came there was no running out to the shop to buy anything in, it was there.

That's it. It's a point of pride isn't it.

R- Yes, aye.

Very good John.


SCG/23 July 2003
6,777 words.


LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/SB/04

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JANUARY 6TH 1979 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


Right John, we'll kick off with the questions. This week we're starting with clothing. Did your mother make any of the family’s clothes?

R- No she never made any, like to make new garments, in as much as the time was all occupied in other things, then again we never had a sewing machine. She used to spend a lot of time patching you know? And darning stockings and that sort of thing, but as for making new things, no.

That's something you see little of nowadays, darning stockings, isn't it?

R- Well because these nylon stockings don't lend themselves to darning you know. In point of fact they don't lend themselves to mending.

You are quite right, they just seem, they go so thin you can read the paper through them don't they and that's it.

R - Well it's a point of, the thing is you see the yarns are such that they'll not bind. I mean to do a darn like (50) my mother used to do with wool. You know, in and out, in and out, well the nylon of today wouldn't hold at all.

That's it. What did she use to darn on? Did she use a mushroom?

R- No, she used to darn on her fingers. You know, sort of put her fingers inside the stocking and then spread her fingers, and then you know, hold it like that.

That's it, aye.

R- And she had a peculiar way of sewing in as much as she used to be able somehow, I can't just like bring it to mind just how she did it but she used to hold that with her fingers and then sew it over the top you know because, I mean I always had tears or something like that in my pants, you know.

Yes that's it. Did you have any passed on clothes John? (100)

R - Oh yes, definitely, oh yes. The thing was that a new suit was an event, and .. I know, the chapel we went to, there were one or two families there, who, who were very generous, in as much as they had lads well actually younger than me but me being small in stature you see, their lads grew out of the things. Well one family in particular I can think of I used to get his clothes regular you see because he grew out of them before they were worn. To the extent that we used to wear them. Oh yes I mean, we used to get .. well they used to be quite, as I say the chapel, the people were rather generous to us. Like with having girls, you know there were, I had three sisters, and there was one lady who had a shop in Bank Street, that's the main street, and my mother used to go there, and she used to be very generous with her in as much as, you know, anything that was a little bit out of dates you know could be altered to suit. She used to let my mother have them for the girls but they were only the girl things you see. But of course we always used to wear clogs, and I know we never bought any new clogs, we always got clogs that had been, you know, the uppers were good, that somebody had sent in, and then they put new soles on, second hand clogs really but new soles you see. We always used to buy those. I mean, as for brand new clogs, you know, new uppers and new soles well not often, not often at all.
(5 min)(150)

How much would, if you went and bought, what you’d call a workaday suit, you know, a jacket and a pair of trousers for a lad then, how much would it cost?

R- Well, we'd get a reasonable one for .. as we’d say, 25 shillings which by present day money is £1.25 ...

That's it, yes.

R- You could get a man’s suit then for two guineas you see, made to measure. And I mean the argument was like with say boy’s clothes they took actually as much making as a man’s suit. But of course we always used to buy them off the peg, we never had any made to measure or anything like that you know. And I mean like school garb in those days, well, particularly as far as myself was concerned consisted of corduroy trousers, long stockings, clogs, and a jersey. And I can remember the time when we used to wear stand-up collars, you know they fastened on a stud with two little tabs and the tabs kept breaking off of course and the collar was no use. (200) It’d he flapping about. And again we used to just wear a jersey with no collar at all.

When you say stand up collar John, do you mean what we’d call an Eton collar?

R- More or less yes, yes.

Yes. Aye that's it.

R- They were about three and a half inches in depth you know.

So presumably you'd be wearing a shirt as well?

R- Yes aye. Mainly cotton shirts, mainly cotton shirts. What they call in the trade Harvard stripes you know, they used to be white with blue stripes, and, and various dimensions you see. Aye, those were the kind of main things. We never wore vests or underpants, never wore them.

Yes. Now, there’s something there. Did you ever wear trousers, I've come across people talking about trousers that had detachable linings in them. Did you ever come across that?

R- No, I never had those detachable lining because you used to buy these cords and they were already lined, you know.

Yes, that's it yes. Now then, when did you go into long trousers?

R- Oh when I was about 14 or 15.

So that’d be after you went to work.

R- Yes. (250)

So you were going to work in short trousers.

R – Yes. Well what happened was I got some overalls, and you could certainly say that those were about the first long trousers I wore.

Aye, your overalls, when you went to work. Yes.

R- Yes.

And what happened to your old clothes?

R- Well, in the early years they were only fit for the rag cart and that was all. You see, because of having no brothers or anything like that, I mean if I'd grow out, I used to have to wear them until you know they couldn't be worn any more. I mean I've gone to school many, many times with patches on me backside you see and this was it. They were no use really when ...

Yes. Now when you say the rag cart, what do you mean by that John? (10 min)

R- Well, the rag cart. There were quite a few fellows who did nothing else only get a donkey and cart, hired daily from the local marine stores, and in point of fact they used to keep fleets .. fleets, I nearly said herds of donkeys but they'd have about a dozen, probably 15 to 20 donkeys and carts and they used to hire them to these fellows who used to go round the streets tatting as we said. Calling out ‘Rag bone, rag bone.’ and they .. oh it was quite a trade. In point of fact there is still one chappie comes round here now in 1979 but he doesn't have a donkey and cart any more you know, they usually come round now with lorries, motor lorries.



A rag and bone man in Salford in 1977.

That's it. And if you gave your old clothes to the rag chap would you get anything in return? (300)

R- Oh well, you used to get, as I'd mentioned before time on these tapes, you used to get salt or on the other hand scrubbing stones. You know, that’s the white, the door, doorstep. In point of fact some women went so far as to whiten all the flags in front of their house with these scrubbing stones aye.

I think I mentioned it to you before, there is one street somewhere in Ashton under Lyne that is reputed, it’s said there that the women black leaded the tram lines and all. Now I don't know whether that's right or not, but I can imagine it.

R- Well I think I've mentioned before about the rhyme, a local rhyme that there is here.

No, you haven't told me that.

R- Have I not? Oh well, it was when the branch line from the tramways was run to a district that we call Lumb you see, which is a village up the top, up the valley and, and it runs in this wise: ‘When our Corporation first run trams to t’Lumb, folks were so suited they’d getten em to come, fellas were swanking and smoking Woodbines, and women set to and black leaded t’tram lines.' Of course Woodbines, you know, was a brand of cigarettes.

Yes, aye yes.

R- Oh and then it .. there was a really like, there was a song to it. I can’t sing otherwise I’d sing its tune but it, it had a chorus ‘I say oh I say….’ No it will not come back to me, probably if I sung it, but I mean I’m not going to sing it down this tape.

No, and I can't get you drunk and get you to sing it so…. (350)

R- Oh no! I'm just trying to think how it went there (singing to the tune) When our Corporation first run trams to t’Lumb, folk were so suited they'd getten ‘em to come, fellahs were swanking and smoking Woodbines, and women set to and black leaded t’tram lines. Oh I say, oh I say, for the cream of society lived down that way.’

That's good enough John, good enough. What kind of hat did you wear?

R- Caps. I never wore any hat. Until of course you got to the adolescence stage and then you used to wear these… Oh well, the fashion at the time used to be to wear a bowler. All the lads used to, well young men, I’m speaking now of the 18 or twenty year olds, we all wore bowlers you know. And then there were a craze came in .. they were a round hat like a pork pie. We used to call them pork pies, there was a name for them that slips my mind, and then of course we used to wear these soft felt ones, in point of fact I have two upstairs now, with a little feather in the side You were quite dandies when you wore them.

Attaboys?

R- Well, they were Attaboys were those but I were just trying to think what the round pork pie one [was called], it was like a toreador hat, you know, the round ones that ... and, like the beaus of the village used to wear these you know. They used to think they were the cat's whiskers up and down in those and Oxford bags, you know, 22 inch trousers. Aye, Oxford bags.

Did you ever have a pair of Oxford bags?

R- No. I mean I never was one, one of the boys as you might say. (400)

That's it. And what would your father wear for work, John?

R- Well, with my father of course, being an outdoor worker, you know he was a coal carter where they carried these bags on their backs. He always wore clogs, lace up clogs. And corduroys, long corduroys and of course coats, he wore any cast offs that he could get because with carrying these bags on their back ... I mean one thing he never did that I can remember on was, there used to be a kind of leather…

A back leather? Yes. (15 min)

R – Aye, a back leather, he never wore a back leather. So of course with carrying these bags on his back he used to go through coats like nobody's business. I mean there used to be jumble sales and I know my mother used to go round, I'm sure she used to go to jumble sales, and see if she could get him coats because he used to go through them like nobody's business. But he had a regular round as you might say, of fellows who he knew if they'd any old coats they used to give them to him you see. And this is like how he used to keep up with coats, but his dress was a muffler round his neck which was a cotton square you know, printed, a muffler round his neck. Well, there used to be some silk squares when they came out, artificial silk rayon, but mainly a cotton square round his neck, tied in a knot you know, like a cravat style at the front, it wasn't just tied in a knot up to his neck like that in as much as it was just a half knot, he used to twist it round and then like use it as a kind of cravat. But that was his dress. And he used to have a special one for week ends, I can't remember my father wearing a collar and tie regularly. I can't remember that at all because he was a bit of a rough and ready type. (450)

One thing about your father working, John. Nowadays a tremendous lot of outdoor workers, particularly in the building trade, if the weather is really bad, if it starts raining anything like that, they stop. What happened if your dad was out and it was a bad day? He’d have to keep going ...

R - Oh, they kept going. And then I've said before when we were talking about the family, he used to be absolutely wringing wet through and yet he'd come and sit in the chair in front of the fire and dry his clothes on him which, one of the things which I think contributed to his early demise. Oh aye, I mean oh they were out in all weathers, there was no such thing as being rained off.

Yes. And there's one thing then, that some people find very hard to realise now, was that there was almost no waterproof clothing.

R- Oh no. The thing is that there used to be Mackintoshes but they, when they first came out they were a kind of thin rubber but they'd had never have done for carting coal bags at all. No there was no waterproof clothing. I can remember Mackintoshes because they were named after Mackintosh you know, the Scotchman who brought them out but I mean they weren't a regular item of wet weather clothing. Because in those days of course again, you couldn't afford them. I mean if you'd one overcoat you were lucky.

They used to work on the principle that the heavier the coat the more rain it soaked up before it got through to you didn't they.

R- That's true aye.

They can get to be a weight, a heavy overcoat full of water can’t they.

R - Yes. Well you see, referring back to the first world war, after the first world war there were quite a lot of khaki coats you know, left over from the war, and they sold them or on the other hand they (500) used to give them you know, they used to bring them home with them say when they were discharged. And so that for quite a number of years after the war, first world war, there were a lot of these khaki long coats, great coats going you see, and of course the people who didn't need them ... well, I know my father wore one for many years, well not many, but quite a few years after the first world war and of course then they fizzled out. I mean there weren't the Army and Navy like there is today, you know these Army and Navy stores where they sell these surplus goods. But after the first world war you could see lets of khaki great coats being worn, you know. In the main they used to have to cut the buttons off, see, because the buttons were the kind of property of the Crown if you will. But I know my father wore a khaki great coat for a while after the first world war. And then again, after the second world war as you know you'd see lots of ...

The same thing again yes.

R- wearing….

Battledress, even battledress trousers, yes.

R- That's true yes.

When, when you were young, can you remember John, is it true to say that young children, I'm thinking of very young children here, just starting to walk you know, were boys and girls dressed the same?

R- Oh you were kept in petticoats you know for, until you were about three or four.

Yes, and when you came out of petticoats that was what they called breeching a lad that, wasn't it?

R- Breeching, that's right yes, aye.

Can you remember being in petticoats, you know, can you remember being breeched?

R- Yes. Well, let me say this, somewhere among our souvenirs there is a photograph of my eldest sister and myself, and I should say that I was about three or four, I should say three, holding my sister's hand. A photograph taken, and I had breeches on then and clogs, and a jersey. You know, you remember the jersey for the children. And the earliest recollection of a photograph that I know of, but I would be about three, I was a little toddler, bow legged of course you know, pigeon toed ...

Why do you say ‘bow legged of course’?

R- Well in those days there was a lot of bow legged children born ... when I say bow legged I mean in as much as the ... not properly bowed, you kind of grew out of it, but they tell me, like, if you can't put your knees together when you stand up straight, you are bow legged. I don’t know how true this is. Well I couldn't put my knees together. I don’t knew whether I can do now or not .... not quite.

Not quite, no, that's it. Aye well, the definition in Yorkshire is whether you can stop a pig in a ginnel!

R- Oh well that, aye, that was a common expression, but .. but I mean the thing is that there used to be a lot of people who were bow legged in those days. When a say a lot, far more than you see today. I mean today of course if a child has a tendency to be bow legged they put correctors on don't they. But I mean I had a bow legged lady who worked for me and quite honestly she was really bow legged, she is alive today butt you know and her legs go out in the shape of a bow.

Almost in a circle, yes.

R- She couldn't even hold a football between her knees you see. But of course they used to say that people who lived in Rossendale were all bow legged because there were that many hills to climb. You know, if you went up a street, one of those steep streets it made you bow legged. That was one of the theories anyway. Aye.

What did your mother wear for housework?

R- Well, I can go further back than my mother, I can go back to my grandmother.

Yes, well do that then. (600)

R- Because they used to wear blouses. I can nearly give you the list of clothes that they wore. They used to wear, for underwear, corsets, or else they used to call them stays with, they were about what, 15 inches long with a great big lace and they used to pull this lace up you know to tighten them and give them a figure. They used to wear stays and bloomers and long stockings, with bits of string for garters and they wore no such things as suspenders you know. And then of course they used to wear button up shoes, these were shoes with about nine to twelve inch tops on and down one side there was a row of buttons and you used to have a button hook to fasten these which was a piece of wire bent at the end. You used to put the button book through the eyelet on the other side of the shoe and you’d pull the button through, aye. Grandmother used to wear them. Mind you, they used to wear clogs for work.

Yes. What would the stockings be made of John? (25 min)

R- Oh they were, well again, it depended on the kind of status because there was a saying I can remember now, people used to say ‘Bless thy old cotton socks’ you see. You used to get wool, black wool. That was a common saying was 'bless thy old cotton socks.’ Which meant that they were made of cotton but they were made of wool mainly. And then of course I can remember, I can remember silk stockings coming in which were the artificial silk way back in the, oh it’d be in the 1920s when they come in did rayon stockings and of course the flashy dames used to wear them. You know, they were bold uns as my mother used to say, meaning bold you see. (650)

That's it.

R- And then of course you got the silk stockings came in with the, roundabout the 1920s with the, when the Charleston came in and they use to wear right short frocks you know, to do the Charleston and these silk stockings you know. And I can remember nylons coming in. Nylons came in during the end of the first world war ‘cause there used to be a black market in nylons and they were…

First world war?

R - Second world war, I beg your pardon, second world war. But they used to come in and there used to be a black market at £1 a pair which, when you were working all week for about £3, I was supposed to be a foreman and I was getting about three guineas a week. At a pound a pair when they first came in, yes. But in my younger days it was all wool. Wool and bloomers.

That's it. Your grandmother, would she wear, she'd wear the long skirts down to the ground, yes?

R- Oh definitely, yes, aye. Aye, nearly down to her ankles. Oh yes they all wore long skirts, very much so. My mother used to wear them as well.

Yes.

R- Oh yes, it wasn't until the, you know, the skirts started to get really short that shall I say, they cut out the long trailing skirts.

And yet would it be true to say that the older end, the older people would still be going round in the old .. you know in the long skirt, they wouldn't shorten the skirts. Did the old people stick to the long skirts?

R- Oh yes. Aye my grandmother had long skirts up to the time she died. In point of fact we have a photograph of me mother's wedding photograph and they all wore these great long skirts, I mean me mother and the bridesmaid, there were only four of them on the photograph, but the other bridesmaid had a great long skirt down to her ankles, yes.

And the shawl John, how…. (700)

R- Oh well, that was regular, me mother wore a shawl, me grandmother wore a shawl, me sisters wore a shawl right up until the shawls actually went out, I can't tell you just what time but I think it was the second world war when the shawls .. But I was going to say I'm not so sure whether my sisters still have a shawl, you know, that you used to wear. And they were like a woollen, they were made of wool in the main, like a sheet, and they used to fold it over to the corners and made it like a triangular shape and then they used to pull that round them you see, pulled the broad part over their head, put their arms akimbo in the tails, and that was it you see. I mean you know, they used to wrap their arms round inside the shawl, pull it up to hold it of course and then again there used to be some rather elaborate fasteners. I mean, I can remember my mother having safety pins to fasten it under her chin, and at the same time I can remember her having brooches. You see there used to be rather fancy brooches. When I say elaborate, elaborate designs, you know. She had one, and I think my sisters still have it, which was a Wedgwood style of a brooch. (30 min)

That was like a cameo brooch, that's it yes.

R- Cameo, that's the word I was after, aye, cameos. They’d quite a few, you know with these ladies heads on and great big, happen about two inches in length and with a pin on the back.

John, one thing about that. Have you ever seen an apron hook?

R- An apron hook? Now then…

It's almost like, they are made of brass. It's almost like a button shaped in any shape you wanted. I have some at home and they are a heart or a star, or a circle, and on the back the pin comes straight out of the back of this fairly large button, bends round at a right angle and there is a hook on the end. Now I got them in an old ironmonger’s shop, he was going out of business and he sold me the lot for ten bob and there was a boxful. I’ll bring you one of them, I'll let you have one.

R- Oh no I've never seen one of those that I could remember...

No. Well I'd never come across them. The only reason that makes me think they are an apron hook .. I think what they were used for was if you were wearing a fent in the mill, you just put the brat, you know, a brat as they said …

R- Yes, not brat [child]

Just push the hook through one corner of it and pull it up till it was up to the button, and then just hook the hook into the other end [of the fent or brat] to hold it round your waist . And it said on the box, it's in the original box, 'Apron hooks'. They were a penny each. Now it just makes me wonder, when (750) you are on about the shawl, it's just dawned on me, I wonder if they were ever used for the shawls as well you see, you know, under the neck, they'd be just as handy for doing that, just hooking a shawl together under your neck.

R- Well I couldn't tell you really about that, and probably if I saw one I'd be able to say yea or nay, whether I had seen one or not, but ..

I'll bring you one. I’ll bring you one and give it you, because I have a box full. I’ll bring you one, because they are a curious little thing. And as I say, I’ve never come across anybody who has seen one used, they must be very old.

R- Aye. Aye, I can't say that I can remember it no.

I’ll do that. I’ll bring you one. Now would your mother wear anything different at week end than she did during the week?

R- Oh yes. Well, when she could afford them. Let's say this, we all had what we called Sunday clothes you see. Now, Sunday clothes were these that were put on say to go to Sunday school and the Chapel and then if they were, when they were really new, if they had been bought new you used to have to take them off after and go into your week day clothes. And my mother used to have you know, a Sunday hat, one of these great big things, floppy you know with .. they used to have fruit on and that kind of thing in those days, you know feathers in. But we had Sunday clothes when we could afford them. Like I can remember having a pair of shoes, but I used to have to take them off when I had been to Sunday school or church and put me clogs on. You know, to preserve them, because you never knew when you were going to get another lot.

And you didn't play football on the way home either.

R- Oh no. Well, let me say this, that the thing is a ball was rather a luxury, because childish games, we used to play what they called tin in the ring, you just draw a ring on the pavement, put a tin in, and then somebody’d give the tin a kick, and you'd go and hide and whoever was what we used to call ‘it’ in other words the catcher, they used to have to come and find you then. And if he saw you, he’d shout your name out and then he’d run back and touch the tin you see and then you had to stand by until he’d got the lot. But if on the other hand, somebody sneaked up and give the tin a kick out of the ring everybody fled again to hide. (800) This was one of the early games, you see. And I mean you hadn't to kick the tin with your shoes and nor had you to go climbing, I mean the thing is that my mother was .. I can remember these little incidents, my mother would know we'd been climbing, “You always knock your clog noses out you see with climbing, well you'll go and scrape all the nose off your shoes and then you’ve had it”. In other words you couldn't get a new pair so you never went, you know, climbing walls, I mean as lads do, I mean we used to go climbing.

When your mother was .. if she was doing her housework, and she went out shopping or had occasion to go out of the house, actually down the street you know and into the town for some reasons, would she alter her dress before she went out, you know, or would she go exactly as she was.

R- Well again, it just depends. Say, like, through the week she'd go down like she was you know, put her shawl on, but if it was say Saturday and she was going round the market, and my mother had more than one shawl you see. Again, one was kept for best could one say, she never wore a shawl on a Sunday except say she was going into one of the neighbours or something like that. But to go out, oh no she'd put her hat on, and her coat.

How about during the day, she was just doing her normal house work and she went to the shop. Would she keep her apron on?

R- Oh yes. But the thing is, another little thought strikes me that when she wore a shawl she very rarely wore a coat. Because she had this long skirt on and of course she put the shawl on the top. Well, the thing is that if she was going out at weekend the shawl went by the board and she put a hat and coat on. But if she was running an errand or anything like that she’d keep her apron on unless it was soiled you see and then she’d put a clean one on. I mean she had a series of these aprons or brats as they called them.

That's it yes. Did she buy them or make them John.

R- Oh she bought them, as I say we had no sewing machine and then again I mean, like I've explained to you already, her time was very limited for such things as sewing clothes or sitting down.

Would it be what we call an apron now, with a piece over the breast, as well as a piece that went from the waist down to the ground or would it just be from the waist down the front of the skirt.

R- Well they were, they were mainly waist aprons, they didn’t wear the others, they had no bibs on. The thing was that like at Sunday she’d have one but with a bib on, you know a fancy one that went over her head you know, and brightly coloured and printed. You know what I mean. There used to be quite a collection of aprons, I mean all my sisters had them as well you see, these little aprons with bibs on.

Have you ever seen your mother tuck the corner, or corners of her apron into her waistband?

R- Oh yes, oh aye. Aye oh quite honestly, well, me grandmother particularly, she always had an apron and I can remember when she used to go to the shop, she'd pick her apron up and tuck it in right round her waist, right round her waist oh aye grandma did aye.

Yes. Now what do you think was the idea of that? It interests me this because I've come across this before, obviously.

R- Well now, that brings another little occasion to mind. If it’s been a nice day, say my grandmother particularly, I mean she'd gather up her apron, and if she was going to the shop she’d put the stuff in to carry it. You see she'd hold her apron like that ... screw the ends up and use it as a kind of bag and put the stuff in. But I don't know what the object was unless it was .. they didn't want to take their apron off but they used to tuck it in aye.

I've come across that before and it seems to me to be an interesting little point.

R - I’ll tell you what I used to see, I can remember when I worked at the mill, I used to go into the shed and you'd see the weaver with her apron, and they used to use it like that to carrying their bobbins you know. They'd lift it up and put the bobbins they'd have to carry, they put the bobbins in to carry them and then they'd, you know, carry it back to the loom.

I've still seen them, I've seen them do that at Bancroft yes, still, yes.

R- Yes.

And funnily enough the lad that always does that, one young fellow in particular that always does that, he is the warehouse man, and being the engineer I was, of course, in charge of the toilet rolls, and he was in charge of the toilet, and he used to come down about once a week for eight toilet rolls and he always picked the corners of his brat up and I just dropped eight toilet rolls in, every time. (900)

R- No, it strikes me as funny is being a lavatory engineer.

I could never understand why the engineer was in charge of toilet rolls and Vim!

R- Let, let me say this, when I was a mill manager I was in charge of toilet rolls.

Aye, they've always been highly prized things haven't they, toilet rolls.

R- Well the point was that I used to find we had these patent dispensers on but there was always those who could get inside and nick the toilet rolls.

Oh they're portable, they're portable aren't they, toilet rolls.

R- Oh they are indeed. Aye.

Especially now they are 15p each John.

R- Aye.

Aye. Oh we've gone through some.

R- I mean the thing was you know that when we were young there were no such thing as toilet rolls, you always used newspaper. (40 min)

That's it, cut into squares and hung up on a piece of string.

R- Oh I've cut many a thousand up into squares and put them on a bit of string; and hung them on a nail in the toilet.

Aye.

That's it yes. Did your father ever mend your family shoes?

R - No. No, he never did. There was a time when he used to, well let's say this I mean we wore clogs more than shoes, he used to put irons on, and of course there was an art in putting irons on clogs. More than once had these split you know, the clog, and I've had to take it to the cloggers you know to put it right and he'd look at it “Your father’s been putting irons on here? Well, tell him he can mend it now.” It wanted a new sole in you see on to the clog. He’d split them you know. I mean because they had .. you see, when they put these nails in and they took the irons off they used to put little plugs in you know, like match sticks. Do you remember?

That's it, that's it. I've a box full at home John.



Clog irons, pegs and nails.

R- Oh well. This is it you see. And of course you see they used to rap them in and the time came when of course they couldn't get any more in and they used to split the wood. Or father went against the grain, I mean there was an art in clogging. I mean putting the nail in with the grain, you know. ‘Cause if you used to put them in ... Well I mean you couldn't really put them in against the grain, in as much as you know how they were tapered, they weren't round nails, they were flat nails ...

That's it.

R- And of course they'd a fairly steep taper on, and of course they the irons you know were grooved and the head of the nail had to fit in the groove. Well many a time, I mean the clogger chappie, he always bent the iron to the shape of the sole, you see. Whereas when father put them on, you know it was just a case of getting a clog iron, you can buy them you know, I mean there were shops that sold .. well, the hardware shop used to sell clog irons and heel irons, and of course you see the thing is that pa used to plank them on, whereas the clogger, he'd build the heel up with a bit of leather if it wasn’t even you see.

Did you ever have your clogs double ironed?

R- No, no, never double ironed. But I always remember that I used to go through a set of irons in a week. I mean, I was fairly heavy on my feet and then again as lads you know we used to, when we had our clogs newly ironed, we used to go making sparks off flags, in as much as you could take a run and hit the flag with the side of your clog, and of course the metal on the stone would make a spark.

Did you ever come across Colne irons, heavy irons?

R - No no, they were all, there used to be some. I can remember this, there used to be a stall in the market, and he sold all kinds of nails, fancy nails and all this apparatus for what you might call the do it yourself shop of today. And he had all different types of irons because like the quarry men, they used to have heavy irons but I can remember what you say when the double irons is like, if it was on the sole there’d be an outer one and then an inner one. Yes, I can remember those but I never had them, no.

When I wore clogs on milk pick up and on cattle wagons I always double ironed them, because they lasted longer you know.

R- The more iron ... yes.

You had more iron to go at, of course it made them heavier. And it were a good thing for the heels and all. How many outfits of clothes do you think you’d ever have at one time?

R- Two, one for school and one for Sunday. Many times only one.

That's it. And how often did you have clean clothes, do you know that? A clean shirt?

R - Oh every week.

Every week.

R- Oh yes. Oh well, like I've said you know, the ritual was bath night was Friday night. Well when you'd had a bath of course you always put a clean shirt on and that had to last you a week, you see. And in those days you know the shirts hadn’t collars attached. I'm speaking now of about what, 1920, the collars were unattached so you could get a clean collar and put it on a shirt that you'd had on for days you see. You could put a clean collar on yes. (1000)

That's it. Something that often strikes me John nowadays is, obviously I am not as old as you but I can remember during the war itself there were no such things in those days as these deodorants and God knows what that people use. We only had one bath a week, and so did the adults you know, the people that we were living with. Now I can never remember any body smells, I can never ever remember anybody smelling unless they came from what we called, you know, a right dirty family, you know, from down… (45 min)

R- Well the thing was you know, in those days soap wasn't as sophisticated as it is today and in point of fact I think that there was more actual, what you might call soap. For the want of a better expression soap was better in those days, it wasn't perfumed and there wasn't a lot of these synthetic fatty acids and what have you in it. It was pure soap and it had a stronger effect of keeping down body smell. I mean when you had been washed with carbolic you see, carbolic, you'd had a wash and you felt a lot fresher, you felt a lot fresher. And I think this was one of the things why and again there's another aspect, and that is that clothing was a lot heavier and in as much as the smell didn't get out, whereas today they are all sleeveless and open necks and what have you.

Another little theory I have myself, John, I don't know whether you’d agree with it is that then clothes were all natural fibres, and I think that makes a difference.

R- Oh yes. Very true, very true. Well let's say this, I mean, knowing a little bit about fibres, you get these fibres today that are non-hygroscopic, in other words they don't absorb sweat you see and so it's retained on your body and it smells.



SCG/20 August 2003
7,308 words.


LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/SB/05

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JANUARY 13TH 1979 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.



Have you ever beard of anybody being sewn in for the winter?

R - Sewn in?

Yes.

R- I'm not just clear what you mean by it.

No. Well to tell you the truth, I'm not right clear about it but evidently at one time it was quite common for people to sew the children into their clothes for the winter and leave them in the same clothes all winter.

R- Oh, I've never heard of that.

Now what the idea was I don't know, to keep them warm I suppose but evidently it was quite common.

R- Never heard of that at all. Never heard of that at all. No.

Did your mother ever belong to a saving club for clothing, you know, boots…

R- Oh yes. Aye, I mean it was quite common, I mean, there was one particular club that she always was in known as the Blackburn Clothing Club, and the chappie who came round was a very nice chappie and very understanding. You know what I mean. When the weeks came that she couldn't pay he wasn't one of these who came round hounding but we had always had cheques in as much as if somebody would, well myself or the (50) children, or even herself or father wanted new clothes, she’d get a cheque and then you'd pay it off the equivalent of a shilling per pound per week. And this was the thing, we always had cheques and a list of shops that you could go to.

Yes, so how exactly did the system work John?

R - Well, it worked this way, that the chappie come round with, you know he came round, and when you wanted a cheque you went to him and he gave you a paper, the equivalent of what you wanted. He’d let you have it according to what he thought you could pay. I mean ours used to average about say three pounds a time. And then they had a list of shops that you could go to and I take it that these people paid a commission to the Clothing Company, Club. And if you got a cheque say for three pounds you'd pay three shillings a week for about 22 or 23 weeks. There was an extended period on it, like that was their commission for collecting and so on and so forth. And they, as I say they also got a rake off from the shops, because it runs in my mind that if the shop keepers knew you were coming with a cheque there was always a bit extra put on. Not in all cases, I mean, but I've heard of this happening, that if you went with a clothing club cheque and the thing was say £1-10 shillings as it was it would then go up to about £1.15shillings. (100)

Yes, I’ve heard that before actually John. I’ve heard that from other people. But did you ever come across these travelling tailors.

R- Oh yes. Well round here they used to call them Scotchmen, why they called them Scotchmen I don't know, because in most cases they were Jews.

That's interesting because in Barnoldswick they used to call them Scotchmen and all.

R – Aye, they always called them Scotchmen, but they were Jews. And the thing is that they, it's in similar vein to the clothing club cheque. They would come down, provide you with clothes and then you'd pay for them afterwards. Or on the other hand they'd come round, and they'd call regularly whether you had anything with them or not so that you had a credit balance if you wanted something, you see they'd call every week. Or on the other hand they used to come round with bags, you know, carrying their wares or samples and they’d show you what they had and then of course you'd make your selection and you’d pay for it on the nail if you could afford it. And this was .. oh aye they were Scotchmen, they came round.
(5 min) (150)

So, in other words, it was possible to sit in your house say on a Friday night, get measured for a suit and the following Friday night have it delivered.

R- That’s true, that's true yes. And then you had so many weeks to pay for it, or on the other hand you could pay cash. If you paid cash you know, you always got that little bit of discount. And I might say that these fellows, the material that they sold, they were fair quality. Mind you we never had a lot to do with Scotchmen, my mother preferred the Clothing Club cheques where she could kind of go and see what she wanted and select because they had a long list of shops, and they'd all types of shops, you see. I mean you could get a new suit or you could get clothes, not so much food stuff but material things you know, watches or household utensils aye. Aye they’d a long list of shops, particularly the Blackburn one because it was very popular and the chap who was called Thornley, I can see him now, a little squat chap, similar to myself but very, very nice. You know I mean he wasn't one of them domineering types who tried to force things on to you.

Were they all nice?

R- Oh well, I wouldn't say that, I wouldn't say that because some of the people who used to come round, particularly insurance blokes you know, as they were used to call them, the slang name was club-moochers or body-snatchers. Some of those were rather aggressive you know, wanting you to take out policies and this kind of thing, but…

No, you hear sometimes, like tally-men as they call them, you know, bad name like, some of them didn't they? (200)

R - Oh well, yes. They used to come round and they were more or less confidence tricksters were a lot of them you know. They’d sell you this, I can remember one time somebody coming round selling books, and they more or less coerced my mother into buying one and of course at that time I was very interested in reading. I can remember it now “Our day in the Light of Salvation” one was called and they were about three quid which was a lot of money you know. It represented a week's wages in those days. And I read the books through and my word they were way out. Aye, they were religious books you see and of course mother being a religious person, I'm speaking now after my father died you see, and mother being a religious person, thought they were a help in spiritual affairs but oh, they were really way out. I read them, I think there were only me that did, they were hard back, gilt-edged and all this kind of thing aye.

We talked on the last tape about the kind of clothes that your father wore for work.

R- Yes.

In that job would he have a foreman or just a boss.

R- Well, there was just a boss you know, the thing is that the owner, they were a one man business, small business. In point of fact he had four horses and four men worked for him.

Now, in what way would your dad's clothing differ from what the boss wore?

R- Oh yes, aye. The boss was always dressed up, he wasn't, he ran the office and you know did the ordering and that kind of thing. Oh aye the boss were always dressed up where father's in his clogs and rough jackets you know. The only time father was anything, any bit like the boss was if they were going on a flitting you see because they did furniture removing as well. And the thing is of course they went a little bit more dressed up than what they did when they were coal bagging. Well, you can understand that, I mean shovelling coal, you know, it’d be dry coal dust, I know he used to come home looking like one of the Black and White Minstrels at times particularly at summer time.
(250)(10 min)

Aye, I see. If they were doing a flitting did they do it on the open cart, or did they have a box van to put on the cart?

R - Oh no, no open carts, always the box van. Yes, aye and the thing is you see that if they were doing a big jaunt… For instance I once remember him telling a tale, do you want me to tell you this?

Yes certainly John.

R - Well, they were taking a flitting, that's a removal for the uninitiated, from Rawtenstall to St Annes because there were, in St Annes there were a lot of Rossendale people, they more or less founded St Annes did people from Rossendale. And they were doing this flitting to St Annes and it was a case of having four horses because the [box was so heavy]. And they went through the night you know, they loaded it up through the day, and then they went overnight. And the thing is they got to Preston to the Halfpenny bridge [The hill from the Ribble up into the town], the brew you know, [brew is dialect for a steep hill] and my father was driving. One chap was just inside having a rest, and they, you know they'd have four horses taking it up Halfpenny Bridge because it was a very big box van. And he was driving, and as they were going up Halfpenny Brew as it's called, do you know it as Halfpenny Brew? Well they were going up Halfpenny Brew, I believe they called it that because at one time you had to pay a toll to go through, a halfpenny, but as they were going up he saw something coming towards him you see, dressed in white. And as it came nearer it was a woman in her nightdress with her arms up, sleepwalking. And, if you go up Halfpenny Brew on your left hand-side as you're going up you'll see a stile, going down towards the river bank. And this woman came towards him, totally asleep, and actually went down this stile down the steps, how she knew, she must have been familiar with it. But why I tell you this, he said Them horses went up the hill - he says - at some pace you know, because being dark they thought it was a ghost. Because you know they'd just passed Samlesbury Hall which is supposed to be haunted. But the conclusion to this was that not long ago when the late Billy Cotton the band leader, was writing his reminiscences in one of the Sunday papers he mentioned that one of the strangest experiences he had was when he was at Preston, and he was staying somewhere, they were moving on during the night, and the police stopped them and asked them if they'd seen a lady sleep-walking and actually they joined in the hunt for her. Now I had heard all this tale donkeys years before from me father, and he said they found her down by the river side. And it was like, very coincidental.

Aye, that's it.

R- But I had heard this tale from me father donkeys years before. So I mean, it was quite true what he said.

Yes aye. Well that was nice that because it bore out what your father said anyway.

R – That’s right.

... as well as bearing out what Billy Cotton said.

R- When I read it in the Sunday paper I thought well, I'll go to me tea! Here is proof of what my father had told me donkeys years before about this woman. He said them horses went up that brew like shot out of a gun, scared to death.

What sort of clothes would your dad's boss wear? You know, normal dress.

R- Well of course he always had the suit and I can see him now, one of these little stiff collars you know, about an inch and a quarter wide, with a tie on, that's the type. The little stiff collar and a suit and of course he always wore a trilby hat. (350)

Trilby?

R- Yes. Aye, whereas father wore a cap, always wore a cap, the boss always wore a trilby. And he lived in what was a big house to us you see?

Yes, that's it. And of course the suit would always have waistcoat in them days?

R - Pardon?

The suit would always have a waistcoat in them days.

R - Oh always aye, and a watch chain you know, to dress the front. Yes.

Aye. Hung across the bay window. Aye. (15 min)

R- Aye. It's a funny thing is that, you know. But he had a son who went to the first world war and this son, he always used to send me personally what they called field cards. And they were like postcards and on it there were, they were printed cards with such things as "I am quite well" and like no indication of where they were or anything like that, but they were printed answers and they used to strike out which weren't applicable. And I think somewhere among my souvenirs I still have one. Well, the lad came home after the first world war and he died within 18 months of it. It was a very sad blow to him was that, to the boss.

Yes. What was his name again the fellow that ...

R – Roland. Well this lad was called Roland Barrett ...

Yes, but the other ...

R - ... and the boss was called James Barrett

James Barrett, that's it, aye.

R- Yes. Talking about James Barrett, at the bottom here is a furniture depository and I happened to be talking to one of the fellows one time, only recently, in recent times. And we were just having a little chat about furniture removing and I happened to say that my father did this, you know, 60 years ago and he said who did he work for? And I told him, James Barrett. And lo and behold he went into the place and brought out a picture of the big box van. Aye, at the bottom here aye, James Barrett's box van. And actually it's the one… (400) I mean I remember the occasion, they used to have carnivals in the town, and Barrett was the Mayor actually, of the town, he was a Liberal. And it was a photograph of his van in the procession. Of course he had this picture, I can remember it now, it used to be in his office.

When did they have the carnival?

R- Where?

When?

R- When, it was always on a Saturday afternoon.

What would that be, June or July holiday times were it?

R- Oh yes, usually June I think, round about June, middle of June. It wasn't a holiday time like, it was a special event and the last one was when, I was, how old would I be, about 13. Because I was actually working then. Well I was taking papers, that was it, I was taking papers I wasn't working. And the chappie that I took papers for was a comedian you know, comedian entertainer. He had a fair voice and he used to go round because there was a carnival king a carnival queen- they were both men of course - and then there were two jesters. Well, my boss was one of the jesters because while it was on he asked me to go and help his wife in the shop you see, to keep the business going, while he was doing his stuff. So it started at dinner time well you know, just after dinner and it went on till about nine o'clock at night you know. They had this carnival procession, and then they used to go round the market you know, the king and queen and the jesters and all the retinue, and knighting various stall holders on what they had. They didn't have a sword, they had a bladder, an ox bladder blown up you know “I dub thee” Bonk Bonk! I can remember it now, aye.

How would you say clothes changed after the first world war John?
(450)(120 min)

R- Oh they changed very rapidly. I can remember the time when we went to school like, we had these cord pants and they used to have buttons just below the knee, you know, about three buttons. Well, those went out and the wider legs came in. Now, we are on about after the first world war? Well, the wider legs came in and of course the, now, just let me think ... well, instead of having like long stockings that came part way up to your thigh you got them up to your knee. And then there were the types of caps and hats, they altered, and of course collars. Whereas when I went to school we used to have these, as I've mentioned before, these collars about two and a half inches wide, well soft collars came in you know, where you used to have a stud hole at the back of your shirt, and tin studs at the front, and you used to put a soft collar on. And well this was one of the things. I was just trying to think, the long skirts went out you know, they used to wear skirts nearly down to their ankles and the elderly ladies did but like the young flappers, you got into the Charleston era, round about 1920, where there were really short skirts and you know the thing is then that the ladies showed their legs were and what was it, the flapper era or something like that.

What kind of clothes were you wearing in the 1920s?

R- Well, the thing is that of course when you started work and the family finances improved, naturally your dress style altered. But for work I used to wear in the main just overalls, no pants underneath because it was always warm in the mill you know. A shirt, no collar or tie, I mean an open neck shirt, and just a pair of denim overalls. Of course at Sunday I used to have a suit, and when you got to the age when you were thinking you were growing up you wanted better things. As you got more affluent, you got more money, you could have a suit for nights and a suit for Sundays, you know, a special suit. I wasn't one for trying to keep up with fashion. I mean I used to wear a bowler, all lads wore bowlers, but then you got to Oxford Bags and pork pie hats came in, well I never went in for those, but instead of a bowler I went on to a soft Trilby and double breasted suits came in and waistcoats, well you used to always wear a waistcoat, and then waistcoats started to drop out, but more so after the second world war waistcoats dropped out. But like the fashions changed tremendously and they kept changing, head gear particularly. At one time you used to see people with straw hats, well those went out altogether or boaters as they were called, those went out altogether. And even the old fellows used to wear Panamas, well those went out when it was sunshine but I mean the cap, the cloth cap has kept its style all the way through. I mean right, in the whole of my lifetime because caps differ very little now in shape and type as to what they were then. They are a bit more sophisticated, I mean the materials have altered with the advent of man made fibres but the style, they just simply fit round and drop over the back of your head with a neb on.

Would you think it was true to say that fashions as such were more stable before the first world war than they were after. When I say more stable, was there more movement in fashion after the first world war than there was before?
(550)(25 min)

R- Oh definitely yes, oh definitely yes. The thing is that, for instance gingham, which is a type of fabric, was very popular before the war you know blue and white checks. Well after the first world war it slowly started to die out, and you got, with the increased knowledge of printing and printing techniques, you started to get printed pinafores instead of gingham. And with the increase of printing techniques, and I'll not say weaving techniques, because I mean the same principles apply, but designing took tremendous strides as far as they the decoration of fabrics, and even wallpapers and all that kind of thing followed the trend.

Would you say that increase in affluence had any bearing on it as well?

R- Oh yes, oh yes, but now I must be very careful because during this period in the post-war period of course we had general strikes. We had a strike in 192l when the miners came out, there was a strike in 1926, the general strike, 1931 and 1937 and whilst the affluence shall we say built up to that period and then there was a complete drop because people just hadn't [got money] because of the general strike of 1926 .. yes 1926. I’d be 17 years old, well all that I got was 7/6d a week from the Union, there was no Social Security or anything like that. 7/6d a week, and of course…

Right John. We'll go straight into the next one now. Now the next section of questions is, I like this section, 'Family life in the home'. Now what we are talking about again now is when you were all living at home together you know, your first memories at home. Did everyone sit down for the meals together?

R - Oh no. As we've said before, we used to stand at the table. Father and mother sat down but as children we stood at the table. In point of fact we stood at the table up to, I should say being what, nine or ten year old, as long as that. (600)

What were the reasons for that John, any idea?

R- Well I don't really know because we had chairs but whether it was because the .. you know, you could just stand there and eat. And the children, let's see there were three of us, four of us so whether to put six chairs round the table was a little bit inconvenient. But there were chairs for everybody in as much, when I say chairs for everybody, it was like a living room come dining room, and you got the two big rocking chairs and the sofa, there wasn’t a lot of room for stand chairs. And you couldn't pull the rocking chairs up to the table you see, so mother and father had two stand chairs, and usually there were about four to six stand chairs in a set. I don't know why really. In point of fact we had a stool under the table and we used to argue whose turn it was to sit on the stool.

Oh, you did get turns at sitting on the stool!

R- Oh we did get turns at sitting on the stool, yes.

Aye. Would you say that there was an element of, do you think there was an element of discipline in it?

R- Could be, could be, because let me say this, both the discipline in the home, and particularly at the table, was very strict, as far as my mother was concerned. Me father didn't bother so much like, it were me mother’s job to bring the children up. And we never had to leave the table until we'd said grace you know? “Thank God for a good tea. Please may I leave the table”

Aye, that’s it.

R- And it's a funny thing but I still say “Thank God for that” when I've had a meal now. And this is the result of this early training. and the thing is there was no such thing as wandering away from tie table unless there was some specific cause. For instance if mother said go and fetch something. But once you were at the table you were at the table, because you know how you are when you are children, you get a bit awkward and if you went away from the table that was it, you'd finished, you couldn't come back, whether you had your meal or not you know. Whether you had finished it, but this was it. Oh yes, discipline in the home was very strict.
(650)(35 min)

Now about, let's just stick to the table itself just for a minute John and then we’ll go on to general discipline. Tell me how the table was set during the week for an ordinary week day meal, you know, say an evening meal during the week.

R- Well, the main things that were on the table were of course the milk jug, the sugar basin and the salt and pepper. Now if we were having bread of course the bread was buttered and prepared before and then put on the table. And if there was cake like I've mentioned at Sunday when we used to have apple pie, you see? Well the apple pie would be say on a plate about 12 inches in diameter, one of those big ones, and cut into sections. Well, that would be put on the table but whatever you were, what you might call your tasty portion of the meal was always put on a plate and brought to you. For instance, I mean, at dinner time, when you were having your potatoes and meat it was always put to you on a plate on the table. She cooked in the kitchen and then brought it on the table. Or on the other hand, many a time when they were cooking on the open fire it was just simply scooped out from the fire place on to the table you see. When, say for instance it was potato pie, you know, cooked in the oven, you used to have a board, put it on the table and then put the big dish on and then it was served out from there.

That's it. How about table covering John?

R- Well, let's say this, in the very early times it used to be scrubbed did the table top, it was like a white wood and it was scrubbed, and that was it. And if mother'd made a special effort she used to put paper on.

What sort? (700)

R- Newspaper, so that if you spilt or made any mess at all, it didn’t soil the table that she'd washed down you see? Because I know as we got bigger and I'm thinking now of the age of seven or eight, we used to have to scrub this table, we used to get a scrubbing brush and some water in a bowl and a cloth and soap you know, the household soap, we used to scrub it white. And we always had a tablecloth for Sunday you see, this was the special meal. We had a tablecloth at Sunday and then of course again, as we got more affluent you know we had tablecloths every day. But there again, where you have small children and they soil tablecloths fairly quickly, you know how we are when you're small, we never had tablecloths, we used to just have the scrubbed table.

How about general discipline in the home John? What was your mother or your father particularly strict about? You know, being cheeky or swearing, or…

R- Everything.

Everything?

R - Oh aye, everything. Now father was rather a strict disciplinarian in as much as if he said something that was it. And it was very very rare that my mother interfered if father said so, but my mother was a strict disciplinarian, in point of fact too strict. Too strict. Because one of her favourite sayings was children should be seen and not heard.

In what way would you say she was too strict John? (35 min)

R- Well, the thing is if we had been a bit naughty, and I mean you know how children are, you know, getting a little bit too much high spirits you'd get put to bed. You see? And once you were put to bed that was it, you were there for the night. I mean she might put you to bed without tea but that was it. And on the odd occasion, I've been put to bed, but rather than miss the meal altogether, she'd relent and let you come down, but you had to go back when you'd had your meal. And there was no such thing as like playing games on a Sunday; you could play inside the house. I mean we had dominoes and various other games like Ludo and Snakes and Ladders and this kind of thing. You could do that or you could read but you couldn't go out playing ball or you couldn't go out playing hop-scotch or tin in't ring, and you know, that kind of thing. I mean, mother was a bit of a Sabbatarian and of course in these days they didn't use to do it. I know a friend of mine was once up at court for playing football in the street on a Sunday. (700)

Is that right?

R- Oh yes, oh aye.

What was the actual charge John, can you remember.

R- Well, creating a nuisance I think. And what happened was, I mean he told me the tale, there were about half a dozen of them and they had this ball and were kicking it and the thing is somebody must have sent for the bobby, and he caught up with them, and they were all summonsed and he told them, he said “Now you plead guilty and you'll get off lightly. But if you are awkward, you know you'll be for it, in as much as you'll get fined more heavily” And of course there were always such things as the reformatory. They'd be about 12 or 13. And I mean, this chap, he was called John, he told me, he says when we got in court if you'd have heard that bobby, we were the biggest culprits on earth and we'd pleaded guilty on his say so. And they were fined a pound apiece, which in those days was a terrific sum, and his mother, oh she didn't half railroad him, and he’d no father.

It were a fair fine though for those days, wasn't it?

R- Oh well this was it you see, but when he got up he said they were creating a nuisance and the ball was hitting people's windows, and they were shouting and bawling and making a general nuisance of themselves. He said it were nowt of the sort, we were just, you know passing the ball from one to the other you see, and because they were actually walking down the street passing this ball as lads used, well they still do it, oh aye. But he said the whole thing was that policeman was stationed in here, Rawtenstall for a good few years but he says as we grew up we marked him and if ever… He said he had his helmet knocked off more than once and he never knew who did it. Even when he was in civvies he said they marked him, in as much as he ... And he never lived it down. In point of fact it got to the stage where eventually he was transferred away for his own safety. Because these lads, you know, I mean in those days ... As I say he was here for a good number of years and as they grew up they never forgave him.

Oh, you still get that now John, you still get that sort of thing now.
(800)(40 min)

R- Oh yes. But discipline generally was very strict both in the home and outside. I mean even at the day school where I went to, we had a chappie who was a captain in the first world wart and when he came back he got us to the point where he could go out of the classroom and nobody dare speak even when he was out of the classroom. He used to have a habit of spying off the edge of the window, and I can see him now you know, the classroom opened out into the central hall, he’d gone to have a word with the headmaster and he’d be peeping off the side. And then he'd come in “Stand up all those who have been speaking. Right. Come on, two raps apiece with the cane.” These people who he'd seen who hadn’t owned up, he gave them four of the best and he let them know that. He said “I'll teach you not to admit..” Aye. And this was the type of thing, oh he had us…

Did your mother ever use corporal punishment in the home? Did she ever hit you?

R- Oh yes, oh aye. And not [only her], father did, oh aye, father many a time lost his temper. I mean he had a belt, aye. You know, you'd done something, father was inclined to be a bit short tempered when you had done something that aggravated him you know and oh aye, this is why you were afraid. I mean it's a thing that, shall I say, made such an impression that it's remained with me all the ...

Yes. Looking back John, like you said about your mother at first, you said that perhaps she was a bit too strict. Would you say that that sort of regime was too strict or was it right for the period? What are your opinions about that now?

R- Well, when I say too strict let me say this, that you got to the teenage stage, you see, and you were working. Now, if you were out while after 10 o' clock at night, “Where have you been, what for, what have you been doing?” and all this kind of thing. And although you resented it, you'd always been brought up to respect your parents, you see. I mean father was dead of course and you had always been brought up to respect, you know, “Honour thy father and thy mother.” was drilled into you and all this kind of thing at the chapel. And it stuck with you and this was it. I mean like when you wanted to go to a dance, oh no, oh no, that was simple style of thing, and “You can't go there, and you ...” And out of respect to your mother you didn't go although you'd liked to have gone. And a lot of things like that. For instance some of the, just to give you an example, some of the young fellows were going to [the Isle of Man] in the annual holidays because there used to be a camp there called Cunningham’s and it was a place where there were only males there. Well you know, there used to be this kind of, bit of discipline, you used to get up in the morning and you'd all to be up, you’d all to bathe and there were physical exercises, and then there were games and all that kind of thing. And some of the lads were going you see and I couldn't go. Oh no. But this is what I mean, it kind of narrowed your field down of your activities. It's one of those things.

Well, looking back would you say that the effect that that had on you, you know, that narrowing down, looking back would you say that that was a good thing or a bad thing, John?

R- It was a bad thing, a bad thing. It could have been a good thing in as much as one doesn't know what temptations one might have had you see.

That's it, yes.

R- But at the same time, looking back as you suggested, it was a bad thing in as much as it cramped their style, and it didn't give you rein to your own expressions you know, the things you’d have liked to have done. And you don't know what you could have done because you never were allowed to try.

And with that sort of thing in mind, did that have any bearing on the way you brought your son up?

R- No. Well, let me say no, that's wrong. Yes it did in as much as he was allowed to do what he wanted but with fatherly advice as to the whys and wherefores. For instance I mean when he got his girl friend he came and said he had got a girl friend and I said “Look, you do just as you want but bear this in mind, I'm always here for advice but you've got to make your own way and I shall never interfere.” The thing is that as he was growing up .. well, when his mother died particularly, and I was totally responsible, I used to let him have an element of freedom, but not to the point where it kind of interfered with his physical well being. For instance, I mean he never was allowed to stop out late, I'm speaking now of when he was about 13 or 14 years old you know, that is early teens, but at the same time he could join in anything that was going. (45 min)

In other words a moderate discipline. Yes. And when all's said and done, moderation isn't a had thing in any sphere of life, is it?

R- No.


SCG/25 August 2003
6436 words.


LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/SB/06

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JANUARY 13TH 1979 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


Now then John we'll carry on again with .. now, you mentioned having grace after meals, did you have grace before meals as well?

R- No. No we didn't have grace before, always after.

How about prayers at home?

R- No. Father wasn't a religious person at all, if anything he was the opposite, so there were no such things as .. we had to say our prayers when we went to bed, you see, we always had to say our prayers. Me mother was religious but we always said our prayers when we went to bed. But like there were no like family prayers or family readings or that kind of thing, no.

When you had a birthday was it different from any other day? (50)

R- No, not at all. Well, the thing was that you got a card, probably. You see, I mean there were times when cards were out, there wasn't the money for them. But as we got more affluent again, when the money was there you got a card, you see. But you didn't get birthday presents of any dimension at all.

How about birthday cake, or a special meal? No?

R- Oh no. No that was out. In point of fact I never had one. Because when I was 21 me mother said to me “Now you can have a party, or you can have a watch” and I chose the watch.

How about Christmas, how did the family spend Christmas?

R- Well, you always spent it together, particularly as children. I mean you used to look forward to Christmas. And I can see it now, we all used to get a long stocking, a black stocking. And when they could afford it you used to get an apple, an orange and a sixpence and they if there was enough money you got a box of dates, one or two toffees and then of course you got your toys. Again, if [there was money] (100)

If you did get a toy John, obviously it wouldn't be on the stamp of some of the amazing toys that are made nowadays of plastic.

R- Oh no.

Would there be a lot of locally made toys about?

R- Well, I wouldn't say a lot of locally made toys, but I mean the thing is that the younger children say would get a rag doll and for the lads, what, happen an engine, you know, made out of wood. But I used to like books, I used to like books, and of course like I've mentioned previously, when we were young we used to depend a lot on the chapel. The chapel used to have a service, and they still do every year, where they, what they call a gift service where those with more affluence bring the toys that they've done with, and then they were distributed to the poor. Well we were the poor and we used to get things, because I know like my mother used (150)( 5 min) to, they used to come when they thought we were in bed. And my mother used to put them away and hide them until Christmas morning. Like the girls, I can remember now one getting a cradle, a little wooden cradle you know, with two rockers on and as I say rag dolls or pot dolls. I can't really think what I got in the main, I really can't think what I got particularly.

One of the things that strikes me about children's toys nowadays, especially boys, I don't know, I don’t think girls have changed so much but boys, there seems to be an awful lot of warlike toys. You know, guns and action men and this that and the other.

R - Oh yes. Yes.

Was there that sort of thing in those days?

R- No. Well, let me say this, you used to make a, you'd get a gun, it was simply made of wood with no trigger and no moving parts if you had a gun. I mean you used to use your imagination many a time with say a broken brush handle you know. But no, there wasn't the same sophistication that the... Oh today, I mean, what my grandson got for Christmas is nobody’s business as far as this [is concerned]. Mind you, his father being a joiner made him a fort you know with the doors that open so that the cavalry can rush through and then the doors go back again with the balustrade round you know where the fellows can pop over the top, and he made a jail house, and a court house and a stable for the horses, you know. But no, I never got, we never had things like that no. (200)

How about New Year, was that regarded as a holiday or not?

R- Oh no. In point of fact it's only up to the, after the second world war, and a long time after that. I think it's within this last 20 years that we have never worked on New Year's day.

It was the same with us in weaving, New Year's Day.

R - We always worked New Years day.

Yes. How about, one thing I can remember when I was a lad in Stockport, this was during the war and just after, but before the war was it the practice for them to sound the mill hooters at midnight on New Year's Eve.

R- Not so much the mill hooters, but the church bell rang as soon as it was twelve o'clock.

Yes, and how about the railway locos?

R- Oh well, there was no shed or anything like that here. [Motive power shed] And I mean the thing is that usually the last train had gone before twelve o'clock.

I see, aye.

R- Aye, from round here.

I can remember in Stockport, there was the big shed [locomotive] by the Mersey and I can remember that at midnight all the sirens and the hooters used to go off. Aye, even during the war. (250)

R- In point of fact I’ve seen more New Years Eve in bed than I have on my feet. Because of this fact, that you were working New Years Day and that was that.

Probably the best way to do it John. How about Easter? Was Easter regarded as a holiday?

R- Oh yes, aye, particularly Good Friday. Good Friday was a real solemn occasion. And we were always kind of brought up to believe that the crucifixion happened about three o'clock in the afternoon, and particularly a solemn time. Like if you went to the chapel to a service, there were solemn hymns and that kind of thing. Good Friday was more strictly observed than Sunday.

When did they walk round here John?

R- Well, they didn't have a fixed multiple walking day. Different churches used to walk on different occasions. For instance, the Roman Catholics always walked on the first Sunday in May, that was their day. Now the non-conformists, well after the war, I'm just trying to think now, the first world war, the chapel where I went to always had…

Which was? (300)

R- Methodist.

Yes. What was the name of it John?

R- Longholme. They always had one walking day in the year, and I think it was the first Sunday in June. Because it was always a very special occasion. The thing is, when I was in my teens I used to detest walking day because our chapel had two big banners and they always had a set of banner carriers. They always walked in white flannels, that was a white shirt and white flannel pants and white pumps. And there were two banners, one was known as the red banner, and one was the blue banner and of course they wore sashes appropriately. Now I was never asked to help either in banner carrying, because for one thing they were like the elite of the chapel who always did these things and then the only time I was asked, of course I had no white flannels and no white shirt, we couldn't afford them so I had to turn it down. So, we started a scout troop in, what would it be, 1932, and of course the thing is I was what, about 23 then, and I was invited to go along with the lads here as assistant scout master you know, learning which I did. And I used to go and walk with the scholars then. (350) Mind you, mother kind of insisted that you walked, you know, it was a procession of witness, this is what she said “It's a procession of witness it's not a spectacle” And of course you had to walk. I was very conscious of this, not being absorbed into the little cliques of the elite but that doesn’t stop me going to chapel, I go to chapel every Sunday.

Why do you think that was John? Was it a question of finance or of social standing?

R- It was definitely a question of finance, because let me say this just in me own defence up to a point, I won a scholarship, I passed to go to the Grammar School but we couldn’t afford it. Me father was ill and of course you had to sign to the effect that you had to go to school while you were 16, you see. Which meant that although you got so many terms free, the last two years you had to pay, from 14 to 16 you had to pay to go to school, and you had to sign to this effect. Well of course my mother couldn’t commit herself to pay them for two years fees because she'd be losing two years' wages you see and so I had to turn it down. Well, this is another thing that gave me a little bit of an inferiority complex. Like as I say, we were poor. And you got those going to the chapel who accepted you, but at the same time there was a big division in the people who attended the chapel, which I'm very, very pleased to say today doesn't appertain.

Would you say John that the same thing, I mean to your knowledge, would the same be true of say the Church of England and the Catholics?

R- Oh yes, but not so much. The Catholics were a different entity altogether in as much as it was a mortal sin not to go to church. Now to us, whilst we were instructed in sin, of what we should do and what we shouldn't do, it wasn't rammed down our throats as much as what theirs was. But even there of course they had their [divisions] those who were close to the priests, and that kind of thing. And for instance, at our place, I can remember not going to church, to chapel for a week or two while my mother could afford to buy me some new shoes, because we'd only had clogs. So that I didn't go for a week or two, but as soon I got some shoes I had to go, because I wouldn't go in me clogs. You might say it was a form of poor snobbery really, but I wouldn't go in me clogs.

No, very understandable John.

R- Because, well I mean it made you so inferior. Just let me give you another instance. There was one chappie who I've never forgotten, he was what they call a class leader and he used to have a class of lads, a chappie called Jimmy Warburton, one of the saints who were unsung and passed on. But I could tell you a little tale about him it night be of interest but this is just to emphasise (450)(15min) the difference in social standing. He was a genuine chap, genuine Christian and he was going in for a local preacher, and the thing was that the circuit consisted of a large number of chapels then and he was told that when he came, if he got to preach at Longholme which was the chapel of the district you know, he'd have to preach a different type of sermon to what he would if he went to one of the little outlying chapels in different parts of the valley. So Jim up and told them, he said “I have only one thing to preach and that's the gospel and if that's your attitude I’ll not be a preacher” And he wasn’t. But anyway that's by the way, he took an interest in lads, and he had this class, a Bible class, and we used to go to the school as it was every Thursday night. And it was coming holidays so he said to the lads “Now then, the thing is I want you all to write an essay on your holiday and there'll be a prize for the best essay” Well of course they all wrote their essays. Well we never went away and during that particular period of the holidays we had a cloudburst and the river overflowed its banks and it flooded the house and we had a real to do. And I wrote about this and he got an independent chappie to assess the essays, and I've never forgotten the chappie’s remarks. And I didn't win the prize, but he said this boy appears not to have had a holiday, he's been so engrossed in the affairs of what was going on around him that one couldn't say he’d actually had a holiday but he wrote a fairly glowing report. So what Jim did, he looked up some old books, boys books, and he gave them to me. What I'm trying to point out in this is to emphasise the degree of poverty under which we lived. You see because me mother - me father had died of course - and there was my mother with four children working in a cotton mill and this was how we were. So that at the chapel, many a time you had no penny for the collection so when they came and put the box under your nose and you had none you know it was very, very embarrassing. Very, very embarrassing. And when you had a penny you were the cat's whiskers in as much as when they came with the box you….

Made sure it clinked when it went in!!

R- That's right. Let them know that you've put your penny in.

Aye, that's right.

R- Oh aye, I missed many a good do through not having any money.

Well there you are, we've survived John.

R- Oh I've enjoyed life aye.

In the home, move away from chapel a little bit now, in the home had you any musical instruments?

R- Oh no. The first musical instrument we had, if you can it a musical instrument, was an old gramophone and we bought that second hand of somebody that was getting another. That was when you had 12 inch records, you put a fresh needle in for every record. But no, we weren't musical. Well I’m not saying we weren't musical, (20 min)(550) it was just a case if, you know I always think that if there's something there, like that piano there you see. I mean if it's there you'll have a tinkle you see even though you can't play but it stimulates an interest. Well if there's nothing to stimulate your interest of course you don’t, you don't follow that bent do you, even though you might have talent.

That's it, aye. How about singing John?

R- Ah! One’s taking part in the Sunday school you know. I mean there used to be a lot of concerts and that kind of thing, one’s taking part in an operetta as they used to call it, this was the children you know. And there was one woman who was training us and they selected us for parts and one had to sing a solo, all the children. She just turned round to me and she says “You can't sing” took the part off me and gave me a speaking part. So ...

That was the end of your singing career.

R- That's right aye.

How about singing at home? Did you ever have a sing song at home?

R- Oh no. Well, let's say this, we used to sing in our way. I mean I still do it, I mean many a time if I'm in the bathroom I’ll be having a song to myself.

Oh, marvellous place the bathroom for it John, marvellous place, the acoustics are always, it always sounds better in the bathroom, that's where I do my singing.

R- Well this is it. I mean, the thing is that I sing to me own satisfaction.

That's it, aye.

R- But I had always had a longing to be able to sing tenor. Well you can't sing tenor with a bass voice. But I was interested in singing. As much as you know these oratorios and that kind of thing that they used to give around the valley, and there used to be a lot of it. And in point of fact I once tried to join Goodshaw Band when they were after young players. But again it wasn't what you knew, it were who you knew, and I never got in. No. (600)

And did the family have a regular newspaper?

R- No.

Magazine?

R- We used to get the local papers you know, the Free Press.

That's it the Rossendale Free Press, yes?

R- Aye, the Rossendale Free Press. But we never had a daily.

Were that once a week? Yes, once a week, the Free Press.

R- If me father, let me say this, me father had, whenever there was any racing, he used to get the One O'clock, you know, it was the racing paper and it used to come out every day. It were the Mid-day Chronicle, better known as the One O'clock. It was purely given over to racing, me father used to read that but that ...

How about your mother, did your mother ever have any [magazine] either a woman’s book or religious book?

R- Oh aye. My mother always bought the War Cry and Young Soldier, that’s the Salvation Army papers. And occasionally she used to buy the Red Letter, that's been going a long time.

Aye. Yes it has hasn't it, yes. Did you ever come across any of Arthur Mee’s publications, or is that later ...

R- Oh yes. That was going, there was Arthur Mee’s Children's Encyclopaedia ...

Yes and then there was the Children's Newspaper as well.

R- Oh, there were the Children's Newspaper, I used to buy that occasionally.

When would that be John, when did it start? I can remember getting that during the war you know, during the second world war.

R- Oh I can’t just tell you when it started out, it was going ever since I can remember was the Children's Newspaper because this chappie that I used to take papers for, you know, and I started when I was eight, he was very good, he'd let me have a look at them in the shop and then put them back for sale. Because I used to look at all t'comics. Oh he was very good, and the Children's Newspaper of course was very widely used for illustration at day school. And particularly at Sunday schools. Now that chappie I mentioned, Jimmy Warburton, he always used to get the Children's Newspaper, and he got loads and loads of (650)(25 min) lessons out of the Children’s Newspapers and very interesting they were too. Yes. Arthur Mee and then of course he had the Children's Encyclopaedia and every so often it’d come out in fortnightly parts you know and then you got them bound to build up. But I never bought any of them, we never had any of them no.

Did any of the family belong to a library?

R- Oh aye. Well, I belonged to the library, I was going to say nearly as far back as I could remember but I wouldn't say so, from being about seven or eight I was a member of the library. I was a prolific reader in the sense that I'd get a library book one day and read it at night and take it back the day after because the librarian many a time said “You haven't read that book, take it back again.” when you have gone back the day after for another. But oh aye, and I used to like adventure stories.

Who did you read?

R- Percy F Westerman.

That's it.

R- And what's the other fellow? R M Ballantyne, Jules Verne, oh was there a chappie called Masterman?

Now wait a minute. There was a book called Masterman Ready wasn’t there?

R – Marryat.

Marryat, Captain Marryat, Masterman Ready, that's it.

R- Aye, Masterman Ready, Marryat.

That’s it, yes.

R - I used to like those kind of things, and then of course I used to be interested in, in books on, you know, various topics.

Aye. Was Percy Westerman going before the second world war? I used to read him during the war.

R - Oh yes aye. Well, his tales were of the first world war.

Aye, of course they were. Yes, now, wait a minute, there was the peg leg, the captain with one leg wasn't there. Aye.

R- And Harding, there was one Harding, a Captain Harding in one of his books. But his tales were about the first world war. And then of course I used to like Rudyard Kipling, aye. (700)

What library? There’d be the Municipal Library, of course. Apart from the library was there a library at say the Mechanic’s Institute or anything like that? Were there other libraries that you could use?

R- No. No there wasn't a Mechanics Institute at all in Rawtenstall. There was one in Bacup, but there wasn't one here. And of course the school books were very stereotyped. Because when I was in the upper standards at school we used to get a lot of these classics, Tales from the Iliad and Homer and oh ..

Yes. Which of course was a reflection on the way the masters themselves had been trained.

R- Well, this was it, but they were not up my street at all.

Were there any other books in the house, besides library books?

R- Well, the Bible. I used to read that, I'd read anything.

Sauce bottle labels?

R- Aye, Daddy's sauce aye.

I think I could still recite the French on the side of the H P Sauce bottle.

R- Oh well, I never went so far as to learn that!

Aye. No I often laugh at that. People'll say do you speak… like I did French at school, I say oh yes, I learned my French off the side of the HP Sauce bottles. Aye. Was there anyone in the family who didn't read or write?

R - Oh no. No, we were all taught to read and write, and then again the thing is that we used to ...

Your mother and father as well?

R- Oh yes. My father wasn't a very good scholar, he wasn't a very good scholar in as much as, if there were any letters to be written my mother always did them. But he had a rather prodigious memory in as much as he’d start taking bags of coal out to Mrs so and so who'd pay him there and Mrs so and so you know, and all through the day. And then at night he used to have to go to the office, to what they called the reckoning up you see and it was very rare that he was out you know, in his money and he could remember who'd paid him right from starting in the morning up to, aye.

Yes, that's interesting that. What did your mother do in her spare time in the house, if she had any spare time. Obviously she wouldn't have so much but what she did have. (750)(30 min)

R- Now that's rather a difficult one because the amount of spare time was very limited. I mean she used to be patching and mending and, you know, darning stockings, and it was a job that took hours of any spare time that she had. No, I wouldn’t know that she'd any special skills like embroidery or anything like that. I mean there used to be a lot of what they call camping. In other words if she'd a few minutes to spare she'd go into one of the neighbours and they'd have a chat or sometimes one of the neighbour’s would come into your house. There used to be a lot of that whereas there's none of that now, not in this day and age. I mean, the people next door haven't been in this house I don't think, for seven or eight years yet they are only next door. This lady at this side comes in, but she doesn't come in camping you see but like we have a very close liaison in as much as she has my key if the gasman comes or the electric man comes and she'll come and tell me. But as for coming and sitting in, well in those days they used to come in and I know many a time my mother's put the kettle on and made a brew you see, a pot of tea, and they've sat nattering and gossiping. Because there used to be a lot of personal rivalry among the neighbours, in as much as you'd be going into this house for a period and then you’d have a bit of a, a few words probably over the kids mainly and then you wouldn't go in that house but you'd go in another house and somebody else would come into your house that hadn't been in for a while you know. And there used to be a lot of that where there's none of that now, no. But she never had a lot of spare time in as much as like she'd go out to the Women's Institute, or occasionally I can remember my father used to take her to the theatre. But very occasionally, like theatre you know were phew, to my mother it was just not on. Unless there was something very special.

Yes. How about your father in his spare time?

R- Oh well, all his spare time was spent in the Club or the pub.

Which club did he go to?

R- He went to what were called Greenfield, Greenfield Working Men's Club. Aye, he used to spend, oh well every day, seven days a week, at night have his tea, get washed and shaved, off to the Club. And of course we never really knew what time he came in, in as much as we were always in bed. But either that or the pub. (800)

What time did you. get up in the morning John?

R- What time did ... ?

You get up.

R- Well, the fact of starting taking papers when I was eight, I used to get up at six o'clock. But before that time we used to get up about, well it worked this way, that mother used to go to work for six o’clock, then they had half an hour break at eight o'clock, you see where they used to come home and give us our breakfast. And then she'd to be back [at work] for half past eight. So that the thing was that me eldest sister would get us up you know so that we were ready, and washed and dressed for eight o'clock when my mother came in to give us our breakfast.

So your mother’d have to be up at shortly after five o'clock.

R- Oh aye, I mean, well it's on record isn't it, the very fact that when she used to carry us out when we were infants. I mean and she used to start work at six o’clock, take us to this woman who's looked after us, and catch a tram at half past five to be at work for six o'clock.

Those were the days, John.

R- Yes, aye.

The good old days as they call them. What time did you go to bed, the children, what time did you usually go to bed at night?

R- Oh well, at the very beginning about half past six. And of course as you got older it gradually increased but even up to being ten or eleven, nine o'clock. And when you started work of course you could stop up until about ten or so and this was it. But again, like in me teens I took up a bit of physical culture and I always believed and I still do, in a minimum of eight hours. You see so having to be up at six o'clock you know to go for the papers which I did do up to being 19. I used to make a point of being in bed reasonably early. Oh it was an event for me if I was up at midnight, Oh aye.

What time did your parents go to bed?

R- Well, really that's something I can't say, but I should imagine if my mother was waiting for me father coming in, it would always be 11. Because you know how they get at these clubs and .. aye.

Did you have any pets?
(35 min)(850)

R- Cat.

Cat.

R- It wasn't so much as a pet as it were to keep the mice down., Aye.

One of the workers. Did your father smoke?

R- Oh yes. In point of fact he wasn't allowed to go into the first world war at the beginning because he had a smoker's heart, whatever that was and he used to smoke thick black twist.

Briar or a clay?

R- Corncob.

Corncob?

R- Aye they used to be very popular did those corncobs. He used to have a Briar like for a Sunday pipe because you know the old corncob it was as black as night, you know, with the nicotine, with his black twist. Aye, he used to be a dab hand, you know how they used to do in those days when you had an open coal fire, and one could send a spit out to the coal fire.

Did anybody else in the family smoke?

R- No. My mother never smoked, I never smoked, my sister's never smoked.

Your sister's never smoked. Apart from your father obviously. We know that your father used to have bet on the horses every now and again. Did anybody else in the family ever have a bet?

R- No, we never had the money you see.

Aye, that's it.

R- I mean, father kept us poor, like I've said. I mean, I’m not belittling the chappie, he worked to bring us up but at the same time, we could have had a lot more of this world's goods and comfort.

Aye, that's it. Can you remember when the family had its first radio?

R- Oh yes. And I can remember the very first time I ever heard a radio. The first time we had a radio we bought it second hand and you used to have accumulators then, you used to have to take them to be charged. There used to be a shop in Bank Street where they charged this. You took your battery in and they charged it up and then you used to have… But first of all we got battery set where you used to buy big solid batteries and you used to have to have two, a high tension and a low tension, you see and that's it. You used to have an aerial trailing round the attic.

And when did you first hear the radio? You know, when did you hear the first wireless? (900)

R- The first wireless I heard was when I was 14 and it was a spinner who had it. I worked on machines preparing what they call bobbins for the spinners. And this spinner, he invited two of us, we were what they called condenser tenters, and we used to tend these machines and make these great big bobbins and the spinner used to put them on his mule and spin them you see. And it were one spinner, he said if you come up to our house you can listen to a wireless. Like we used to work for him and we got on the tram at Rawtenstall and we went. He lived in Crawshawbooth and we went up and it was, I can see it now. It was like an oak box with a lid on and the speaker was a horn similar to the type that there were on gramophones but it stood on a little stand like that, a black one. And the thing is he said “Well, you picked a night when there isn't much on.” But at the same time he turned this on and this music was coming out you know without having to wind the old handle or put a fresh needle in for the record, for the gramophone. And we thought it was marvellous. And this chappie started talking about the news and this kind of thing and then he said we'll see if there's anything on the other channel, so he lifted the speaker off the lid, lifted the lid up and switched it off by the way, and took a coil out and put another coil in. And this is what he did, he'd two coils. But this was it. And then of course his wife had made a potato pie supper, that was the highlight of the evening and some currant cake, and of course we came down on the tram about 10 o'clock. And that was the first time that I heard a wireless and it seemed marvellous to hear these voices and this music coming out ...

Yes, that's it.

R- Continuously you see, continuously.

Yes. So when did you, when did the family first get theirs?

R- Oh well, it was sometime after that. And I can't just tell you the circumstances in which we got it. I can't just tell you, but I know we had a set. Aye, only our first set had a box speaker separate from the set you know, on a wire, and that was it. And then we got a built in set, one like kind of pear shaped, a pear shaped style of set. And then of course, from that yes, we built up till we got a modern one as it was.

What sort of impact would you say that wireless made on your lives?
(950)(40 min)

R- Well, it made a tremendous impact in as much as it was a new innovation and not only that, it gave you a wider spectrum of entertainment and also current affairs you see because you used to get talks on about this thing and that thing and the point is that you gradually built up an association with the people who were doing this. Like this is where the kind of household names came into being. For instance Stuart Hibbert you know, he was an announcer, I mean he comes straight to my mind. Stuart Hibbert. And there were other people, and you kind of built up a link with their voices and the stuff they were telling.

On the whole would you say it was a good influence, wireless?

R- Well, I'd say yes and no. I mean there, you know you could go into a real debate about it in as much as immediately wireless came, I wean I'm not one of those people who can read and listen to the wireless, I've either got to do the one or the other. So that whilst the wireless was on I couldn't read so of course the number of books I read went down.

So in other words one form of communication ousted another.

R- That's true, that's true. But at the same time, as I say, the wireless gave you a wider spectrum of affairs. You know, I mean you had different entertainment. For instance I mean, I can remember laughing me sides sore at Tommy Handley and I.T.M.A. This was the 1930's you see.

So would you say that on the whole it was probably a good thing even though it cut down on your reading.

R- Oh yes, oh yes, in as much as like when you got the news you see, you get well, even like it is now, you got today's paper is today's news, but you got today's news today. And then when they started describing the football matches you know. For instance the Cup Final, well you got both the atmosphere I mean they, they had some very good commentators you know who could describe the atmosphere, and you could hear the football match going on or the cricket match. Or, on the other hand, the symphony concert if you wanted to listen to it. Which was something that you'd never heard before. For instance I mean I have always been interested in dance music you see, well I mean...

And there was a great deal of dance music on in the old days of radio.

R- Oh yes, particularly late at night but I never used to stop up to listen to it. But I mean you got Roy Fox and his signature tune, Whispering, you got Lou Praeger and Lou Stone, Joe Loss and Ambrose, and then you got Henry Hall, and Sidney Lipton .. You see what I mean, I can quote them straight off the reel. Showing the interest I took in dance music you see? (1000)

That's it, yes. Now, just going forward from that, compare that with the advent of television. Would you say that television made as big an impact again as radio did?

R- Oh yes, more so, more so. Because the thing is with television, you've got to concentrate all your faculties on television, whereas when dance music was playing you could use it as background you know. While you were doing your chores. You know they brought this in during the second world war in the mills you see, to lift the monotony.

Music while you work.

R- Music while you work to lift the monotony. And I might tell you, that it's something that people used to listen and want to hear because you see it relieved the monotony and I do think it went a fair way towards refreshing people's minds. Because I mean, particularly when you got a good one on, there was one chappie used to come on and his harmonica band, I've forgotten his first name but when he was on everyone used to listen to that.

SCG/26 August 2003
6,604 words.


LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/SB/07

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JANUARY 27TH 1979 AT 13 WHITEHEAD STREET, RAWTENSTALL. THE INFORMANT IS JOHN GREENWOOD, FORMER MANAGER AT SPRING VALE MILL. THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


Social life outside the home this week John.

R- Pardon?

Social life outside the home. Where did you usually play outside the house?

R - Well, you used to play in the street mainly. You see, the nearest park was about three quarters of a mile away, so of course you played in the street. I mean there were a lot of children. The games we used to play, speaking now of early childhood. You know if you got a ball you'd play with the ball, well we used to play hopscotch and, as I've said before, tin in the ring and various other games like that. But you always played in the street because the nearest park was three quarters of a mile away and you never went to play in tha park, say after tea or anything like that. It was always an outing like, to go to the park, so you used to play in the street that was the main recreation area.

What sort of attitude did your mother have to you, say on a Saturday morning or a Saturday afternoon, if you'd done your jobs like and you were playing out, if you set off down into the town or went for a walk or something like that? (50)

R- Well, the thing is that in those days of course life wasn't as hectic as it is today, there were no such things as cars to any extent so that the from a safety point of view you were a lot safer on the street than what you are today. They never used to have any qualms, really of sending you off. If you went anywhere special that was all right but you didn't just set off and wander away. There was the odd occasion like when a child got lost because as you know our location is so near the moors that within ten minutes you were on the moors. But the footpaths were a lot better defined in those days, well they were used a lot more. And the cart tracks you know, were open for walking along whereas today you know, they have gone, they have been ploughed in and what have you so that you have lost a lot of the old cart tracks that there was. As children we used to go on one favourite walk, it used to be what we call round the Marl Pits which was about five minutes walk, and you were out in the country. You see it’s on the left hand side of the hill there under Whinberry Naze, that's a good word Whinberry Naze, and…

How do you spell that?

R- Pardon?

How do you spell that?

R- Like Whinberry, w h i n be r r y.

Aye Whinberry Heys?

Naze, N a z e.

Oh, N a z e.(100)

R- Aye, I mean we have Whinberry Naze to our left and Seat Naze in front of us you see? But we used to go round Marl Pits and of course round Marl Pits there is a stream runs through and it's quite rural and picturesque.

What did it used to be? A brickworks or something? Marl Pits?

R- Oh no. Marl Pitts was the name of the area and there were no brickworks round here. The thing is that the sports complex is now built on Marl Pits but the question of drainage has always been a serious problem ever since it were put there and of course the name Marl, like I've said to people who were responsible for these things, the old folks knew what they were talking about when they named this area Marl Pits. And they go and put a sports complex on and now they can't drain it you see out there.

Aye. And because marl’s what they used to put on the land. It were a type of clay.

R- Well, marl, that’s clay really..

Is it? Aye.

R- And what happens now, and it happened in those days, because we used to go gathering rushes, you see. And we used to get these rushes, pick the long ones out, and then you used to plait them into, well I mean us lads used them as whips but you know we used to plait them all together and make then in, like they used to plait the hair, we used to plait them like that. But this was Marl Pits and we used to walk round there and you came then on to the main road, and then you back to home. Or on the other hand, when we moved into one of the other houses, we used to play mainly in the street because it was a bit further away.

Who did you play with John? (5 min)

R- Well, all the neighbouring kids. You know, the thing is you'd have a friend one day and then you'd have an argument and you wouldn't be speaking, and then you'd get another, and so on and so forth. It's like how it operates with children. But you got to the teenage years, well what you might call grown up lads, you then used to have your special friends. I know I had one in particular and we used to go places together. But I was always a reader you know, I used to spend a lot of time reading books. Then the thing was when we got working, I went working and when I went into the mill I found this lad a job in the same mill you see. But of course when he got money he started going into the billiard hall you know and started smoking, you know, grown up men, grown up lads. And well that wasn't my bent because I started going to night school as soon as I left school. I left school in September and I went to night school in September you see and followed it on.

Yes, we'll get round to that later, to your night school because you went to night school for a long while didn't you?

R - Oh I did indeed. Yes.

Where there any children that your mother didn't like you to play with?

R- Well, yes there were a few who, the parents didn't seem to bother about them, and of course they were always getting into mischief, we used to call it lumber in them days

That's it. (200)

R - They were always getting in lumber. And of course they'd kind of lead you on if you could be lead, so you were told to avoid them, not avoid them strictly speaking as to shun them, but you didn't play with them because they were the type. Well I have one laddie in mind in particular who would create a situation, and then when it come to the upping he could run fast you see and he wasn't there when it came to the accounting.

That's it, aye. Aye, we have all met them I think. You've mentioned tin in the ring, we have talked about that before but you mentioned another game there, Rallyo, how did you play that?

R- Oh well, Rallyo, it was a case of one person was ‘it’ or the seeker shall we say. Because I mean, a lot of people listening to this’ll not know what we mean by this Lancashire phrase of being ‘it’.

That's it.

R- But the seeker. And you covered your head and counted up to a hundred while the others dispersed and hid. Now then the point was that you used to hide in a lot wider area than you did for tin in the ring. Now if it happened that one of the lads who'd gone out came back to the den as we called it, and you weren't there, he waited there until you came you see and of course you'd got to hide your head again while he went again, and so it went on until finally if you saw somebody and got back to the den before they did they were then ‘it’ you see. That's how it operated but it’s area, I mean, you used to go a long way. You'd go up the street and down that street because somebody'd spy the seeker coming and then you'd bolt. And of course if the seeker heard running feet he'd chase the running feet and so on and so forth.

Aye. Can you remember any other games Johnny besides Rallyo and tin in the ring?
(250)(10 min)

R- Well I mean, you used to play cricket if you had a piece of wood and a ball with stones for wickets. And you know, there are a lot of seasonal efforts like at one time there’d be skipping ropes…

That's it.

R- And you'd play running through and higher and higher, that's jumping over the rope you know, held a little bit higher. And then you, there'd be skipping, turning up, the rope went round, you jumped, and of course if you stopped the rope you'd to get hold of the handle.

It’s interesting you saying that about things, things did seem to come in cycles. I mean obviously things like conkers and sliding on ice and what not, they were governed by other things but every now and again you'd seem to get a craze for say whip and top ...

R- That’s it, yes.

Everybody had a whip and top for about four or five weeks.

R- Aye. Shuttlecock and battledore. You know the girls used to play shuttlecock.

That’s it.

R- But it'd have a phase and then it'd die out, and they had these various phases.

Did you use to chalk the tops of your tops?

R- Oh yes if you had any chalk. Oh yes, aye.

Aye, we used to chalk patterns, aye.

R - And see them spinning round. They looked really nice. Of course in the mill they used to use cotton string, we used to call it burning band, it was a tubular banding. Well, of course, the thing is your mum'd pick some off the floor you know, it was used for driving the spindles on the ring spinning frames. Well, if one broke the whole string used to fall on the floor and my mother's brought us quite a lot of burning band as we called it. Well the thing was that if you were whipping a top with that it made a smart crack and this was it, the bigger the crack the better you were.

Yes, that's it.

R- Aye. And of course there were all different shapes of tops. There used to be jumbo tops

Aye, and peg tops.

R- Well, they were nearly all peg tops. But I mean, when I say jumbo, they’d be about three inches diameter and three inches high, you know a bit of weight about them. And then you used to get the peg top, the type that you mean with like just a thin shank and a little bit taller, yes.

Yes and a bigger top, yes. (300)

R- Only I were thinking about the peg in the bottom of the top that it spun on see.

That's it. Oh whip and top, yes we used …

R- Oh we used to play whip and top.

And of course you'd play games like tig and…

R- Oh tig, aye. Oh aye that was quite a common one.

Did you ever have a bicycle John?

R- No. Me mother never would let me have one. She used to say “You are not safe on two feet, let alone two wheels.”

Is that right?

R- Although my uncle that went to the war, he had one. And it was an old one and it were kept at my grandmothers but I never was allowed to ride it or anything like that. So I never had a bike, I don't think I could ride a bike to this day.

That's interesting. When you went for a walk in the country you said about collecting, rushes and plaiting them together, did you ever collect anything else like berries or firewood or fruit or anything like that?

R - Well in this area of course there is no trees that really bear fruit except hawthorn and we used to collect hagues (?), that's the hawthorn's berries and we used to throw them at one another. But there were no horse chestnuts, no conkers round here or anything like that you know, they are mainly sycamore and a few ash trees.

How about firewood?

R- Well, firewood, well you didn't .. as I say there's very few trees. Although this on the old maps was known as the forest of Rossendale and the historians tell us that they used to hunt deer round here there's hardly any trees to be seen now. I mean it was totally denuded. Some say that it was denuded when they wanted wood for ships I don't know whether that's a true fact or not but it's supposedly that the forest was denuded and of course, well, you can see the hillsides are barren. (350)

Yes. And how about, of course there’d be Whinberries wouldn't there?

R- But just one point, sorry to interrupt you.

Yes you are right.

R- But such things as firewood, well you used to be able to go these shops and get, orange boxes and margarine boxes. A lot of the goods used to come in wood boxes of which the shopkeepers they used to charge .. if it was a big one it'd be 3d, if it was a small one it'd be 2d and if it was a very small one it would be a penny. Because I can remember the time when we used to go to woodwork at school. If you were making something special you had to take your own wood and of course we used to make a raid for margarine boxes because they were soft wood and usually they were clean and they were easy to work whereas the boxes that the oranges came in, it was a tough, pliable sort of wood and many a time you could hardly break it up to put it on the fire.

Aye, Maypole’d be a good place for that wouldn’t it, aye, for the boxes.

R - Oh yes they had them at the Maypole. Or the grocery shops you know I mean other shops sold margarine as well.

And as I say, you’d collect Whinberries when they were in wouldn't you? (15 min)

R - Well, it's a point that although there's a quite a lot of Whinberries we never made a point of collecting them. No, some people did and also there were blackberries. The blackberries seemed to grow wild, but again, not a lot because the hedges were all, well there weren't hedges, there were stone walls you know where these things usually grow. Aye.

That's it, yes. Yes well that's a thing that probably a lot of people don't realise, I mean there are very few hedges round here. Very few.

R- Well, that's it yes. Well, they are all stone walls. Of course you see this is the point, that the hills are covered with stones when you get a short way down.

Did anyone in the family ever go fishing John?

R- No. No, as I say, my father was a clubman, and of course club and pub. So like, he never went fishing. (400)

Was there much fishing done round here, you know, either canal fishing or river fishing?

R- Again, no. There is no rivers that are clean enough.

Aye that's it, polluted.

R- You see, all the rivers round here of course, I mean, you get the Irwell, which they say is the worse polluted river in Europe, or was because I must add that in the past tense now because it's been cleaned up terrifically because a lot of the mills have closed down. But the most overworked river in Europe was the Irwell. And then you get the Limmey Water which is one of its tributaries, well you got a, right at its source there is a great big calico printing works which used to send all its effluent into the river so I mean it used to come down various colours. One day it would be nearly blue, the other it would be red.

Obviously nowadays pollution of a river like that is regarded as a serious matter and it’d soon be a matter of local complaint but in those days did anybody seem to worry about the fact that these water courses were polluted to such an extent, did anybody ever worry about it? Was anything ever done?

R- Well, no. The thing is that the whole standard of hygiene right from the very barest essentials was a lot cruder than what it is today. For instance, there were ashpits you know. Like in a row of terraced houses there’d be happen three say to a dozen houses, about four houses to one ashpit. Which would be like a brick chamber and the dustmen used to come round with a shovel and have to empty it. And then again there were tippler toilets, and the thing is that the whole standard of hygiene, and it worked right through the house. You'd a tin bath and you had a bath once a week and if it were cold you missed a week to keep you warm. But the whole standard of hygiene was a lot lower, a lot cruder than what it is today. The corporation used to have a cart that went round specially to all the farms and a lot of the outlying houses that used to empty the bins that they used for toilets you see? Oh aye, I mean I knew the chappie who was on it, he lived just across the road and they used to make, well they made up a little song about him you know “The corporation muck cart was full up to the brim, the driver fell in backwards and thought he could swim, he sank to the bottom just like a little stone, and they could hear him whistling 'There's no place like home'.” (450)

Aye. I’ll have to tell you some day about Ernie Roberts and the muck cart, and the night soil cart. Well, this question here, we have already covered it really “Did your father go out in his spare time?”

R- Yes, aye he did.

Yes. And of course, ‘Where did he go?’ he went to the club didn't he. (20 min)

R- He went to the club and the pub. In point of fact my first recollection was that he used to go and sit in the pub which was only about 30 yards away. And then when we moved into a fresh area he started going to the club, but he wasn't, mind you I'll not say he went every night because there'd be times when he had no money you see, and I mean it's no good going into a pub if you are not drinking. I mean that was the whole idea of the exercise. But he used to stay in those nights, waiting for payday, but in the main my father wasn't a handyman in as much as, I have inherited that tendency, I'm not a handyman, like you wouldn’t see him making things or having hobbies like some of these chaps have, doing a lot of painting or decorating. Let's face it, the walls in our bedrooms were limewashed, there were no such things as paper on walls you see, they were white, limewashed. We used to limewash them every year you see? But downstairs, like in the living part, of course that was papered. Now, the kitchen that was done in colour wash rather than tiles and paper you see? But he wasn't a handyman, and of course you see he died comparatively young. I mean he was only 42 when he died and I would be what, I think I was 13. But you see there wasn't the time to get to form a father-son acquaintanceship, in as much as you look at things from an adult point of view and you can talk it over with your dad and all this kind of thing. Like, I was kind of left adrift. (500)

Did your mother go out in her spare time?

R- No. No it would be a very special event if my mother went out. This is, I'm speaking now of early childhood. Of course as we grew up she was able to, because… But in early childhood I can't remember my mother going out except say like she'd go and see some of her relatives who lived in Waterfoot a mile and a half away and she'd go on the tram. And that would be an occasion, say somebody was ill or something like that. But she never socialised, in as much as there was more or less a set program of events every week.

That's it yes. If she did go out would she go on her own or would she go with your dad?

R- Well, again you’ve got to take the age into consideration. As small children she’d go on her own and my father’d stop in with us, but ...

That’s it aye, aye.

R- Again, as we got older of course she used to go out but when we were in our teens, I mean mother was a Salvationist and of course if they had the meetings and we were grown up, or at least old enough to leave, she'd go and she'd want us to go with her and I mean we did on a lot of occasions. I had a sister older than me of course who joined the Salvation Army and was a Salvationist, but I mean I never had inclinations. Well I wasn't inclined that way, I had no inclination to kind of tie myself to it. (550)

So your father wouldn't be a church goer then?

R- Oh no. Never did. I can't remember my father going to church.

Your mother?

R- Oh my mother’d go. Well, the thing is you see again, I think that one of the things that kind of helped my mother with the Salvation Army, they had a place which was only 30 yards from our house you see? So she could nip in for an odd evening service you know at Sunday night.

Yes. If she, well she was a Salvationist wasn't she. As well as being a Salvationist, did she ever go to a church or a chapel, you know? Something special you know? (25 min)

R- Oh yes. In point of fact before she was married, when she lived in Waterfoot, she went to a church called St James the Great, and when she was 21 they gave her a silver teapot which my sister still has. Aye, so I mean actually I should imagine that she must have been a fair worker at that particular church.

Must have been if ....

R- Because my sister still has this silver teapot, all engraved. And it is a silver one, I mean it's not silver plated. Oh aye.

Aye? What sort of attitude did she have towards you going to church? Did you have to go regularly?

R- Oh yes, aye.

Was that church the chapel or…

R- Chapel.

Chapel?

R- Chapel, yes.

Which chapel was that, John?

R- Well, Longholme Methodist aye. It were Longholme Wesleyans really. But I found out I preferred to go there rather than go to the Salvation Army. Mind you let me say that we went from being very small. Of course you see, I had this sister who was that little bit older and she used to take us as children, you see?

When you say that you'd rather go to the Longholme Chapel than the Salvationists, any particular reason?

R- Well, I don't know. The thing is that their style, whilst I agree in a lot of ways with what they present, it didn't appeal to me.

The Salvationists, yes

R- Aye, I mean it's supposedly recorded that General Booth, the founder of the Salvation Army said he didn't see why devil should have all the good music, you know, the popular music. And of course he put words to popular songs you see? Well I mean it's all right but like a lot of tambourine bashing didn't appeal to me. Although like the officers of the local Salvation Army used to come to our house for tea regular. My mother'd invite them because they were very, very poorly supported in the sense that they had to pay all their dues and demands before they had anything left for themselves. And so it used to be that the officers used to go round to the various people to have a meal you see, because there's many a time when they haven't been able to pay their way, say with .. you know, electric bill came in or a gas bill or they wanted coke. Because you know it were ha’pennies and pennies in collections in those days.

Aye that's it. Now about, yes, well it was you that was saying the week before last wasn't it, about the collection, many a time you went to church and you had no collections ...

R- Oh yes.

Yes, well we were on about clothes. Were there any social events connected with the church?

R- Oh yes, in point of fact one of my earliest recollections of social events is that when we were very small you see, and we lived in this particular area I’m in now. Well, the chapel was only at the bottom of the street, that was a Wesleyan chapel at the bottom of the street. Well, we only lived 40 yards the other way. Well if that, and of course they used to have what they called the Band of Hope, you know the Temperance Movement.

That's it, yes.

R- And they used to throw coffee and bun [parties]. Well if there was a coffee and bun evening, which was what we call a school bun and coffee. Well, the word went round like wild fire and they'd get a lot of children coming that night. Of course that was an inducement to get them to attend you see. I remember those coffee and bun nights. And then again there was that about it that when we moved out of this area into the other area lower down and I started going to Longholme they had one, a Band of Hope and they had quite a lot of activities. There used to be what they called the Wesleyan Guild which was a kind of educative come social society, they'd have speakers on various topics and they'd have socials there and they'd have visits. Like visits, I can remember one time having hiked as far as Edgeworth, the National Children’s home you know and this kind of thing. And then again the people in the chapel itself used to organise concerts to raise money because I can remember as a young man particularly, the Lady’s Aid they used to call themselves and they used to put up an annual concert which was usually a comedy play and of course the thing was they used to have practically the same cast. Because you found these people with a bit of a flair for acting. And then when the leading man that they had fell ill they asked we to take the lead. Well, I was thrilled to bits. I took the lead in quite a few of these farcical comedies. And then again, like the Cricket Club or the Football Club, they all used to have concerts to raise funds. (650)(30 min)
There were a lot of local concert parties, that was half a dozen individuals got together and made a concert party up with some ability and talent you know. And they used to get these people to come, I can remember the fee used to be about three guineas, and if you get a special one it was five pounds, which was colossal you know. And they used to charge a shilling a time to go in. Well you knew, when you'd have your tickets printed and you'd paid your concert party and that kind of thing you used to make a pound or two for yourself if you were lucky. If it were a bad night you used to drop a clanger.

And that wasn't for any particular charity, that were people trying to make a bob or two for themselves?

R- Yes.

That's interesting that, that's the first time I’ve ever come across that John.

R- Oh aye. I mean the thing is there used to be events every week of one particular organization and another. I mean, I can remember the Girl Guides, they had some leaders, well there were three sisters actually and none of them ever married and they are still alive today, I think the eldest is about 88. And they used to put on a real spanking do you know, like pageants of the Ages. They weren’t without a bit of brass so of course they went to town and they used to put this on for about two or three occasions and they'd have packed houses every time. And of course we used to help them out with these ...

How strong were the Boy Scouts and the Brownies? (700)

R- Well, the Guides particularly, they were very strong because these three sisters were as keen as mustard. And then about 1934 I think, well I were getting on then you know. One lad decided he’d start a troop of Scouts and he asked me if I’d become assistant Scout Master. Well I didn't know the first thing about it and of course I've always been interested in young people so I said I'd help him out with it. The thing is we started this troop and it went like a house on fire. The only point being that we didn’t get support from the chapel elders that we would have liked. Some of them were dead nuts against it. It was a para-military association you see, the Scouts, and they were out and out pacifists. But there were some who were quite keen and they gave us a lot of support. But there were those who had the idea that the Scouts were just a lot of rowdies, mind you, some of them were little jumped-up uns. But at the same time was an institution that engendered in some of those lads a spirit of responsibility in as much as when they’d been going for about 18 months or so some lads were being appointed as patrol leaders who were in charge of six other lads. Well, they used to organise these hikes and what have you and it did lead to far more independence than they otherwise would have had. I could tell you quite a few stories about taking these lads to camp. You know, that would be quite interesting… (35 min)

Well ...

R- We built up quite a strong group of scouts, and then of course we got a cub pack started and I can remember that we used to have to go on church parade every month, the first Sunday in the month was always church parade. And we have had more Scouts and Guides in the congregation than there were other people. I remember I took a census one time when it was the annual walking day and we’d no fewer than 140 walking in the procession, cubs, scouts, guides and brownies. Well, you know, it was quite something. (750)

How important do you think the Scout Movement was in say, the 1930's to the beginning of the War in the formation of young children's ideas? Obviously, the ones that were in it. Do you think it was a big influence?

R- Oh definitely yes. I mean, I look back now to the lads who were genuinely interested, you always got a fringe you know who used to come and then after a week or two it palled and they dropped off. But the lads who were genuinely interested, I look round now, now that they are men, and see some of the positions that they've attained, and the lads of other troops who you got to know and it’s quite surprising how many, I’ll not say the Scout movement was totally responsible for them holding responsible positions now but I'm sure it helped to mould some facet of their character that helped them in their, what you might call growing-up life. Oh aye.

Yes, yes. That's the impression I get yes.

R- I'm still a member of the Scout Executive you know, in spite of my age.

Oh age is no bar surely.

R- Well I mean the thing is that you have an age limit on active participation but on the Local executive you know, like what you might call the ruling body, I mean the thing is age is no bar. I've had various awards from them you know for service.

How strong are the scouts now round here? Are they as strong as they were?

R- Oh yes. The whole thing is it's a problem today of course getting people who will give up their time to lead them. In point of fact we had a meeting last week and the thing is that their numbers are actually increasing. There are a lot of troops that have gone out of existence, for instance I mean, now the latest troop is about the 42nd Rossendale. Well, of those 42 troops that there have been, mind you that’s in the whole history of scouting, right from Baden-Powell's time up to now there have been 42 troops, I should say that there are now about eight active troops. But at the same time I went to a meeting of one troop, and as far as the Cubs were concerned they had to have two nights they've so many you see so that there is still a keen interest. And one other troop, a friend of mine’s the Scout Master, he’s been there that long well he'll have to retire this next year because he is 65. But he's been there that long, but I mean the number of lads who have passed through his hands…. And he's given them a far greater insight to things than ever they would have done. For instance he took his scouts abroad every two years. You know, them who wanted to go but I mean there is a scout camp in Kandersteg in Switzerland, and they used to go to Kandersteg every two years. And then of course they widened their horizons and went into Austria, they went into Germany, they went into France and there are a lot of places that them lads would not have visited had it not been for him. (800)(40 min) And of course you see a lot of them again they formed associations with scouts from other areas, and I know there are a few who keep this association even if it's only a Christmas card at Christmas time you see.

That's it, aye. To get back to the chapel, what sort of people would you say went to the chapel? What sort of cross section of the local community went to chapel?

R- The whole spectrum. For instance I mean like there was one particular family, the Whitehead family who were very well known really. Well, some of their ancestors founded our chapel and their descendants came but they always came, walking stick over the arm and they all head [for] their own special pew. You got like from the mill owners right down to the bobbin carriers, you know, the labourers in the mill. But you got a full spectrum.

Would you say that they mixed well John, or was there any segregation? You know, were they standoffish at all, better people from the…

R- Oh yes. I mean there was a degree of social snobbery in as much as the church officials always stood at the door welcoming these folks whereas we children used to have to go in at a side door. Up the side of the chapel, right out of the way, under the Gods, under the gallery you see. There they sat in the body of the chapel straight facing the pulpit and all that. They were given the VIP treatment, whereas we children, and let me say there were children of all sections, we were tucked away up one side of the chapel. Well I say children of all sections, I mean the bank manager’s sons and tradesmen’s children and all that you know. We were all…

And what do you think was the reason for that?

R- Well, because they were what you might call the main monetary supporters of the chapel you see.

Yes, yes. But I mean, the reason for segregating the children, would you think that it was the old thing, you know, ‘Children should be seen and not heard?’
(850)

R- Well yes definitely because the thing is that when we started these youth movements there were certain sections who looked down on us and although we attracted children to the Scouts and they had to come on parade, and I mean we got a lot of lads who never went anywhere even in those days. But they didn’t just seem to realise that the children of that day were the men and women of today and it narrowed their outlook. I mean they could, we were as venturesome as any, you know what I mean. They did damage, they broke windows and damaged furniture, you got boisterous kids and some of them were [worse than others] I think we only, the whole time I was in we only expelled two. One was for misbehaviour inside, and the other had been a bit of a naughty lad outside.


SCG/28 August 2003
6,445 words.