TAPE 78/AB/6, SIDE 1.
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 8TH OF AUGUST 1978 AT 17 CORNMILL TERRACE, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS BILLY BROOKS AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
[As the tape starts, Billy is talking about the names on the engine at Long Ing Shed.]
Lizzie and Minnie eh?
R-Aye.
Who were Lizzie?
R-Robinson Brooks wife, Elizabeth.
Were Minnie Slater’s wife?
R-I think Ted Slater who had her I think.
Aye well, they’d be original shareholders with Rushworth wouldn’t they.
R-Well, in Long Ing aye, Rushworth would be because they got [the contract for] all the ironwork you know.
Well, we’re up to about the First World War aren’t we Billy. You didn’t go away to the war then Billy?
R-No, I were in South African War, I were about 18, stretcher bearing in South African Boer War.
You were in the Boer War!
R- Aye, well I went as an ambulance man you see. Ambulance man, there were a lot went from Barlick, you could go for six month you see at four bob a day if you’d passed First Aid and I passed First Aid twelve months afore.
So what year did you go to South Africa?
R-1899.
Well I’ll be beggared! Now isn’t that funny, I were all set to ask you about First World War, it never dawned on me it could be the African War! And that were a regular do were it, that you could sign on for six months as an ambulance man?
R- It were during the Boer War. And you worked in th’hospitals you know, orderlies you know if you’d first aid. If you had a first aid certificate , if you’d been in’t ambulance years before, they’d have you, but you’d to go in a uniform you know, ambulance uniform and then they sent you back you see.
So where did you go to join?
R-I didn’t go nowhere, they simply sent up to the superintendent here you see. If there were any men prepared to take on.
So obviously you were in the St John’s Ambulance then.
R-Aye, But after that I went in the Territorials at Duke of Wellington’s at Skipton, based at Skipton.
And when you went to South Africa, where did you go when they accepted you, you’d have to go somewhere to be kitted up wouldn’t you Billy? Where did you go to be kitted up?
R-Well aye, it were down at Devonport or somewhere down there you know. I’ve just forgotten now which it were, but we had to go to Ossett first because there were a lot more going from there and they sent them all together you see. Well, at t’coronation of King Edward [22 Jan 1901] I were down in London that day on duty in t’street as an ambulance man, aye. Oh yes, there were twenty of us went from Barlick.
That’s it, yes, I remember you telling me that before, that’s it. What was the name of the boat you went on to South Africa, can you remember?
R-Aye, we got on board the hospital ship Simla. [5,884 tons. Built by Caird and Co at Greenock for the P&O line in 1894 and designed for the Far East run. She arrived in Southampton from India on 23rd March 1898 with troops and wounded and so could have been available to sail to S Africa in 1899. On April 2 1916 she was torpedoed and sunk off Gozo, Malta by U-39.]
And we get up to Delagoa Bay and we were out in that bay for a while. They were fetching ‘em across you see, I did nearly all me time on that boat, Simla.
Did you go ashore at all?
R-Well, odd times but there were a tremendous lot of fever then, it doesn’t seem to be now. But there were several Barlickers died of fever, enteric fever, aye. Staff Sergeant George Green, you’d never know him of course, he went and he died there, May 1st 1900. Oh they were dying in scores of fever then, I don’t know how it were but of course there don’t seem to be that now you know.
When you say they were dying in scores, do you mean men that went out there? You mean that soldiers were dying.
R-Yes they were, dying of fever.
Did you see any of the fighting while you were out there?
R-Well no, we were a bit out of the way of that you know. Now if I’d stopped on a lot longer I might have gotten into it, I don’t know.
Aye, that’s it.
R-Now, Second War [Billy means the First World War.] I volunteered as a stretcher bearer for that and we were practicing in the field waiting of being sent for and that were 28 bob a week. We were practicing bandaging and all that and then I’d getten t’wife to get me a box wi’ needle and thread and all that sort of stuff to go. They sent word they’d getten some frae Ossett in place but Lord Kitchener had taken hold then and he said we could join the Royal Army Medical Corps at a shilling a day. Well, we were going at four shillings you see so of course we didn’t join that, no. There’d be about twelve of us and we’d go down in’t fields for about a week waiting of word coming aye. I went to say goodbye to me relatives over at Clitheroe and there and it missed.
So you never went then Billy in’t finish.
R-No. Well, war started you know, it ‘ud be t’First World War. I were in’t Territorials for three years and I’d resigned [in 1913] and t’year after that, in 1914, t’war came on. Well, them that were in’t terriers, you see I’d resigned the year before, all the terriers that were in Barlick you know they had to go down in’t train at Saturday morning. So me and a friend of mine, Tom Reeves, we’d been in before, in’t terriers, he says let’s join up ‘cause I had a stripe and I should have get, I’d happen get to be a sergeant reight away, we being trained you know. So we went down wi’ em to Skipton. Well we goes up to the drill hall you know and we knew t’Sergeant Major as looked after ‘em, there was allus a Sergeant Major from’t regulars that looked after t’Territorials. Now then, what do you two want. Well I says, Sergeant Major, we wants to sign on . Well, he says, I’m that busy today I can’t. Come back next week. So we went home disappointed in a way. It were t’best thing that could ever have happened were that for us, aye. If he’d taken us on we should have been fast then you see, aye, for the duration of the war. Aye, he says come back next week, I haven’t time to bother. Well you can understand when men were coming in you know and they had to fit them up wi’ stuff aye. He says Come next week. By God I’ve talked about that many a time, aye.
And yet at that time you felt as though you wanted to volunteer.
R-Yes, I wanted, we wanted to go then, aye.
Can you tell me why you wanted to go?
R-Well, it’s like same as it’s a kind of fever you know when a war’s declared you know. You don’t study nowt nobbut you feels you want to go you know.
And yet during the following week you changed your thinking.
R-It had gone off a bit so we thought we wouldn’t bother aye. I says happen we’d better stop at home. He says aye. Well I said they’ve gone to Immingham Docks at Hull. Sleeping on the docks an all sorts like. I said We won’t bother. Aye. I had a brother, two brothers that had to go wi’t terriers but one got to the front you know and at Skipton, Colonel Longden Smith, he were a big man at Skipton you know, he gave ‘em all a little Bible. And one Sunday morning there were a shell burst and a big lump of shell and it cut a piece off at the corner, aye. Aye, if he hadn’t have had that there he’d have been a gonner. And it just took it off but it sliced a piece off that thickness off the corner, a piece of shell, aye. But he had to go to hospital and he got invalided back to England you know. They had to get that lump of shell out, there were a lump of shell in his breast and he were a long time in th’hospital and when he came out he got home on leave a bit and they were , these that had been wounded, they were sending them out on the farms to help with food growing and all that. So he applied and they were formed in a row and they said Do you know anything about farming? And me brother says Aye. But he says I knew nowt about it so of course he got on but he says I soon learned, I used to cart turnips into town you know, go to t’shops and all that sort of thing and he billeted wi’ ordinary folks you know. And he were there when the war finished and you could get anybody out of the army if you had a job for ‘em reight away you see so I got him a taping job wi’ me so he were released from that farm then, aye. He says I liked it there, they were a grand couple I lived wi’, aye.
Whereabouts was that Billy?
R-He were down, I’ve forgotten now whereabouts he were, it were somewhere down in the South I think. Oh he says, I learned, I soon learned he said the farmer knew he didn’t know much about it so he showed him bits of things he wanted to know, aye.
So when you came back from South Africa did the hospital ship come back as well or did they send you back.
R-No, th’hospital ship were still out there, it might have been posted somewhere else, I forget now you know. I don’t know.
How did you come back then Billy?
R-Now then I came back on a troopship you know, they were sending the wounded back you know. Now after that of course [I think Billy has skipped to the time after he decided not to sign up in the First World War.] you had to go up [for a medical] you know. So I came out grade three owing to rheumatic in me fingers, look, like that. [Shows me his fingers] Aye, he looked at that and he says That’s rheumatic but I says Well, it’s of a cold morning, I said like they go dead in a way. I put a lot on you know. So he gave me grade three and I got to stop at me job taping you know. It were national importance you see. A chap says to me when he saw me wi’ that, he says I’d give hundred pound for that, this chap says, aye. He’d come off grade one and he had to go you know. Of course, the war didn’t last long after that you know.
How were trade during the war?
R-Well, cotton trade were good you know but they couldn’t, they had to pay a levy for every loom they ran. Aye, they were getting a lot of money, money were no object you know. They used to make stuff, balloon cloth for these barrage balloons and all sorts. Oh aye, they were making brass then but they couldn’t run all their looms you see, they hadn’t workers for ‘em and them that run a lot of looms, they had to pay the levy to the union in Barlick. Well, after the war were finished, you got so much out of that levy if you were out of work. I’ve forgotten what they called it. Butts Top, aye, t’union, Gardner they called him, he were secretary of the union. Well, you’d go there and you’d get so much do you see, it wouldn’t be above ten bob but that were a lot of brass in them days.
When you say Butts Top, whereabouts were the union office at Butts Top then?
R-Well, it’s a plumber’s shop now. It were there next to that paper shop .
Aye, that’s it, used to be Standing’s printers.
R-Aye it did. Well there were a shop in between you see
Aye, that’s it. Martin’s took it over, the plumbers.
R-Aye, that’s it. It has his name in the window yet but he’s dead is Jack and so is Jack Spencer. [his partner] He were up in Scotland wi’ his daughter I think. He were alright were Jack. I apprenticed me son wi’ Jack at five bob a week while he were twenty or twenty one, five bob a week.
That ‘ud be Jack Martin. Well, your son ‘ud be 64 when he died so when would that be when you apprenticed him?
R-It ‘ud be about 1920, sommat like that. I think he left school when he were thirteen. See, well, he got on well wi’ Martin, it were nobbut five bob a week. Well when me and t’wife put him in t’boarding house he were general foreman for the council, Sidney Brooks. He were a tall chap, he were general foreman. It looks as if you’d come across him some time.
Aye, it weren’t him we used to call the Mouse Man were it? You know, if you wanted some poison for mice you could go down and see him.
R-Well, he were t’general foreman.
Aye, I’d know him. Course, you see my trouble was wi’ wagon driving I spent very little time in Barlick then you know.
R-Aye well, he’d worked for the Council as a plumber for the gas works but when they wanted a general foreman he applied for it and he got it. Looked after t’streets, lighting and all. He were general, he’d nowt to do, but he allus wanted to be doing sommat, he could have dressed his self up if he’d wanted to. Aye, he worked for the Council for twenty years, aye.
So you were taping down at …….
R-Westfield.
Westfield there and of course you’d be taping there until the second world war wouldn’t you?
R-Aye, yes. I finished in 1943. War had been on for about a year then hadn’t it. [Four years actually] Well, I were in Blackpool the remainder of the war you see. Of course I were ower age then you know. I were nearly sixty you know.
What made you retire early Billy, were it war coming on that made you retire. Did Westfield carry on weaving during the war?
R-Oh aye, yes. Aye well, I left in 1943, I didn’t retire, I went into a boarding house. I worked while I were seventy in the boarding house.
So you took a boarding house in Blackpool.
R-We took a boarding house near Central Station in Vance Road and we were in it sixteen year. Then my wife got so as she were poorly and I were alreight. So we just, his [Sidney’s] wife were a Blackpool lass, she wanted to go to Blackpool. They had three children in this house, brought ‘em up. [17 Cornmill Terrace] So I says Well, you can have this house if your mother agrees. I says You mun ask your mother, if she says yes it’s yours. So I went out of the road you know, Well, she says, It isn’t what I’d have liked you to have but if you want it you can have it. So we just, following Easter, he gave his notice in to the Council about January so that he could come into the boarding house at Easter. So we just packed up me and the wife and I sent a skip wi’ me bits of stuff in down here and I went up wi’ em to the bus stop and they stepped in the bus and off, aye. That were it aye.
How did you like running the boarding house Billy?
R-Oh it had its ups and downs like everything else. Sometimes you had bits of worry you know and you get ower ‘em. In winter I used to do bedrooms up you know. Downstairs of course I get professionals in to do ‘em but I used to do bedrooms you know. I’d go into a bedroom, take the beds out and put ‘em on the landing and get me steps and light me pipe and look round what to do. I used to spend about a week in a bedroom. Me wife ‘ud ring the bell, me tea were ready. Don’t go up no more, you’ve done enough today. No, I’ve finished. Well, when I’d getten me tea, nay I think I’ll go up and do the top again and then it’ll be finished will the top. So I went back, I’d be there well after ten. Aye, well it were passing time on you see. I were never a drinker you know to go out drinking you see. Well, I same as I am now, well I never bother going adrinking you know. I went up to Rolls Royce last Sunday night and I had a bottle of Guinness and stopped an hour you know, that’s all, aye. No, I used to enjoy lots of things in the boarding house. Sometimes you’d have worries you know.
What sort of worries Billy?
R-Well, the butcher had some meat condemned at t’top of t’street and we got us meat there. We had some meat you know and t’wife were very clean in everything and some on ‘em were poorly you know wi’ poisoning. Aye they were. And we couldn’t help it you know. That were a worry you know. Aye, Well, they wouldn’t come again you know when owt like that happened. Course, we didn’t bother, we get someone else. But that worried me a lot. It worried me more than wife did that, aye. She were spotless, too particular in a way, aye. And it just happened like that, aye. It had come from the same shop as there’d been some condemned. Now whether it had been in contact with it I don’t know, never tell, no.
Where would you rather have been working Billy, in the mill or the boarding house?
R-Well, I’d rather be in the boarding house in a way because in winter time I’d nowt to do you know. We made us living in the summer and it lasted all winter you see. I could do what I liked at end of September or October you see and shut t’front door. We opened at Christmas but we give ower. We said no, we won’t bother wi’ Christmas. So we had winter to do wi’ what we liked, we used to come across to Barlick for a month, aye. Happen in October, November. They were snowed up here one time, I were falling on me arse in snow up and down and when we got back to Central Station at half past six at night, eh, dry as a bone. Everything were dry and lit up. Eh I says, it’s grand to get out of that snow isn’t it.
In between the wars Billy you were a member of the union, did you ever get interested in politics between the wars?
R-Well I don’t know, ordinary you know. I were a member of the Council for six years, Conservative member you know.
Aye, now there you are, tell me about that. When did you first put up for the Council Billy?
R-About 1940, now I’ll tell you, I put up against Ted Smith, he were chairman of the Labour Party and he were a schoolmaster up here. [I think Billy means Gisburn Road School.] He licked me wi’ nine votes. I’d votes, if they had been fetched who were mine, the dozy buggers, there were a chap in’t committee room, he were giggling and laughing wi’t lasses and squeezing ‘em up and that’s where they were! When they came to have a look at t’scale on Sunday morning they could see there were names that should have been brought, aye, that’s the way they did, aye. Well, t’second year, Fred Baldwin were putting up, he used to be the postmaster, well he were conservative, I didn’t put up again him you see. The year after, we having done so well that they thought I was going to get in unopposed, but Fred Steele come in, solicitor, he come in as a candidate and he licked me wi’ 24.
What were Fred Steele standing as, Liberal.
R-Well, I don’t know what the hell he were, he reckoned to be all sorts you know. (Laughter)
He’d be Independent would he?
R-Well I think he were but you know he faced all roads you know. I got to Teddy Wood’s door, he were a big Labour Man and he says Well, you know Mr Steele’s putting up? I said aye but he isn’t….. He says Oh yes, he’s a Labour man is Mr Steele. That showed you didn’t it and he nobbut licked me wi’ twenty four votes. There were a Labour man in, I’ve forgotten what were his name. So the year after this Ted Smith come out you know did Ted. Aye, well I lopped him by 69.
What year was that you got on the Council?
R-1937. I licked him wi’ 69 votes, we’d 600 and odd each. In the North Ward that were.
What made you put up for the Council in the first place.
R-Well, in the first place in 1934 one of the Conservative Association let on me. Now, we want a candidate for this ward, how about it. Well, I said, I don’t know, I never thought about it like. So I didn’t bother and they got a candidate Aloysius sommat, he were a Catholic schoolmaster down at school. And they got him and he got in. Aloysius they called him, aye. Well, t’year after they were on to me again. I said Well I will do, and then it gets you you see, you feel you want to win. Anyway, Ted Smith licked me wi’ nine votes. It should have been me, if me workers had have done right it would have been me. I were determined I wouldn’t be dependent on them no more. Now t’Conservative women they wrote all me programmes out you see, they did well that way you see. But you see wi’ these here, so t’time after I got me own workers. Me brother, he ran a car and I’d a friend in’t Buffs [Buffaloes] and Mitchell at t’Stew Mill, he ran his [car] for me you see. Well, I got licked wi’ 24 wi’ Steele. They said Well you know Mr Brooks, Steele’s a solicitor you know and Fenton, the Town Clerk, isn’t a solicitor and he’ll be able to put him reight. But he never did, Town Clerk knew more than him about Local Government you understand me. Aye. But however, t’third time I’d some good lads you know, I didn’t depend on them, no, nobbut for sending me address out. No, me brother and them fetched ‘em in at night you know [to vote] and I were stood on that balcony just about half an hour before the poll was declared and t’Labour party had their committee room a bit lower and they were coming up wi’ their tables you know. I says Have you finished? Aye. Well who’s these coming in now then? They said they’d finished and getten all their votes in. Well, I said, Whose is these that’s coming in? They were coming in for me. Aye, well I licked him he were president of the labour Party.
What did you do when you got in Billy. Did you have any hobby horses when you were on the Council?
R-Well you see, I’d been president of the flower show and I’d been a big gardener and they put me chairman of the Parks Department. Letcliffe Park you know. I have the handbooks upstairs still. I were chairman of Parks Department and that year I left I should have been Chairman of the Council.
And apart from the council work did you do anything with the Conservative Association. Were you a member of the Conservative Party?
R-No, no I didn’t, I hadn’t really the time. I were taping and then I were going up there every night [to council meetings] I had the record for attendances. Did you ever know Edgar Wild?
Yes.
R-Well, Edgar were about two meetings less than me, he were trying to beat me and I beat him. Aye, Edgar Wild, I have the papers upstairs. Aye, I have every meeting, I never missed one. And there were a lot of meetings in them days that there isn’t now owing to gas works department and th’electricity department and th’hospital. I’d been to a meeting every night one week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and me wife says You want to get another one for tonight and then you’ll have been there all week! And by gum, an agenda landed that morning and I had one at Friday. It were hard work and I had a big garden and a big greenhouse an all at the time. I don’t know how I got through it but I did, aye.
Was the town any better run then than it is now would you say?
R-Well of course, it’s bigger now and the bigger you get a thing and the more unwieldy it becomes. You see in some ways it’s worse and in others it’s better. I couldn’t find a fault wi’ Pendle meself. Folks keeps sniping at ‘em but you know they’ve done a lot of good things in Barlick. They’ve fettled some streets up here and Barlick Council couldn’t afford to do it. We were flayed to death of the rate going up thruppence you know. If t’rate went up, County ‘ud put their precept in and you’ve to cover all that and you’ve to have a bit for yourself. Well, if the rate went up you’d get sacked at the next election in them days you know. But I were broad-minded, it didn’t matter what it were, it were all right wi’ me. Politics to me meant nothing. I can’t for the life of me see what politics has got to do with local government. I remember ‘em starting to bring all that lot in and it’s all to get power.
What do you mean Billy when you say you remember ‘em bringing all that in?
R-Well, when they first started putting candidates up. I can remember the time when there were nobbut four Labour members in the Houses of Parliament, John Burns, Kier Hardie…..
Do you mean to tell me that at one time the people who were running Barlick, there were no party politics connected wi’ it?
R-No there weren’t at that time, they were all what you might call Independents. There were John James Shutt, farmer and Fred Harry Slater, Old Harry Slater at Clough Mill. All them you know. And then the Co-op started it off, by putting their secretary up. Robinson Brooks were beaten wi’ five votes by the co-operative secretary. Well, Robinson didn’t bother wi’ it no more. He didn’t like the thoughts of being beaten like that and so he dropped out. Well, if I studied I could tell you they were all businessmen. They were, happen a builder, I could like picture them now. Fred Harry Slater, he were one of the sons at Clough Mill and he were captain of Barlick cricket team. Well you know, Fred Harry weren’t much of a cricketer but you see in them days, the manufacturers had a lot of prestige in Barlick you see. They don’t bother today but they were considered to be a different class. Of course today they don’t bother the same. But you see Fred Harry got put up as captain more because of his family you see. It were drawing power for the public if you had men of….. as presidents in them societies in them days. If they were manufacturers, well they looked up to them you know. Aye, but they don’t bother today you know. It were nice in them days, Fred Harry were a grand chap, aye he were, you could talk to ‘em. You could reason wi’ ‘em a lot better, you can reason wi’ these money men better than you can wi’ your own lot, them’s your enemies! There’s nobody a bigger enemy to the working man than the working man his self you know.
Yes, I can see that Billy. So you think it was a backward step to introduce politics into local government?
R-Well, what point were there? They all pay their rates according to the style they lives. If you’ve a big house you’ve got to pay more. Well, what point was there. Same as government is now, those on social security doing nowt. See, you can’t start giving brass away because it’s the ratepayer’s brass, you had to give an account of it. Well what difference is there wi’ being a socialist or anybody else. He’s in the same boat, he’s rowing in the same boat. So what is there? I can’t see. Some folk can see but I can’t, I never could. It didn’t make that much difference to me didn’t politics. I even helped one of the Labour chaps to be chairman once. He come to see me in the tape hoil at Calf Hall, wanted to know if I’d vote for him, he says It’s my due to be chairman. Well, I says, If you’re due to be chairman I’ll give you my vote. He come up on purpose. He were one of the executive of the Labour Party and I voted for him because he were entitled to it. That were my attitude, I didn’t care. Lots might have, that’s politically minded, have said Bugger him, no, he’s a Socialist. I looked at it this way, it were his turn to be Chairman. No, Fred Steele and I were allus friends like. When I put my resignation letter in that night when I were going to Blackpool, he were the first one to stand up and give me a compliment, he says Well, I can’t pay Mr Brooks a bigger compliment than what I’m going to do, he’s a perfect gentleman.
SCG/Sunday, 25 March 2001
5109 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AB/6, SIDE 2.
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 8TH OF AUGUST 1978 AT 17 CORNMILL TERRACE, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS BILLY BROOKS AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
R-Johnny aye, he were there, he were lifting wi’ sommat.
Who were that? Johnny Pickles?
R-Aye, Johnny and me were good friends. Aye, we were. I went in’t Stars one night, it’s a long time since, and he were there, he says come on, Have a whisky, what tha wants. Aye, we were good friends me and Johnny, aye.
Well, you’d know Johnny when he started in Barlick for Henry Brown wouldn’t you.
R-Yes, I knew them when they first come. I knew Henry Brown, I knew him at Earby, when they left Earby and come here, Henry Brown, th’old chap. And then there were Billy Brown, he lived at Horton, he died aye, one o’t sons, he lived at Horton for a while. Johnny were apprenticed to Henry Brown at Earby at first. Johnny says Old Henry Brown, he were one of the old school. Aye, they were, they were good mechanics were Browns in them days, they made a good job.
They still do you know.
R-I don’t think they do much now do they, they have no engines.
Aye, they’ve still got five.
R-Have they five?
Aye, and I’ve just found them another one. Oh aye, they still do a good job, they still do a good job Billy.
R-I used to get them to do jobs to t’tape you know. Putting new ends in the rollers and all sorts. I could allus tell when Johnny Pickles had done my job. I told him and all, I says You allus finish off. When you’ve a roller in’t lathe you allus put sandpaper on and shines it up. He says Th’art reight. It were reight were that, I says I allus knows when you’ve finished wi’ a job Johnny. Aye, you see the rollers ‘ud have a bit of mouldy on them and he’d shine all that off. It come back like a new un, I telled him, it suited Johnny did that. It did that, but it were reight. T’others ‘ud think, Bloody mould, they’ve getten the bugger on, they mun get it off. They’d just put the ends in and that were it, aye.
How about party politics, in t’parliamentary job, did you agree with that Billy?
R-Well, I do in some ways but I don’t in another. You know, the opposition opposes no matter what it is, they oppose it and nowt gets done, aye. Unless they’ve a big majority in the House you see. Look what they’re doing now, they’re bowing down nearly to these here Independents and Liberals just to keep ‘em in office. That’s what they’re doing now. Of course you see when you get a lot of men round a table, there’s allus some dissension between them you know, they’re never unanimous, there’s allus one or two that upsets the apple cart.
When the socialists were starting up Billy, you can remember when they first started, were you ever tempted to be a socialist?
R-Oh no, I never gave it a thought. No, I’ve studied nationalisation and I don’t like it. No, I don’t like it a bit because it’s a big waste of money. Two men in one job, ‘We’re all right, t’government’ll muck us out’, and all that, no.
But in the early days Billy… mind you they were talking about nationalisation then I know, but did you never think that happen t’socialist job ‘ud be all right for the working feller?
R-Well I don’t know, I don’t know where it has been [good for the working man], can you tell me where that has been? No, you see gas and electricity, they’ve been declaring big profits haven’t they? Aye, but who’s paying for it? They’ve kept putting it up. You could make a business pay if you could plank it on like that couldn’t you? You see when they first come out they said we want the benefits that come out of this business for the people, but it doesn’t, no. You see they have a monopoly. They can pop the price on and then there’s two men to one job. There’s vans up and down, running about wi’ nowt in. Happen a gas meter in or sommat like that. That’s all what goes on wi’ ‘em. When we had to be careful wi’ t’ratepayer’s money we daren’t buy a van at £250, we daren’t buy it, no.
Aye, well they’d have had to ride round on bikes then Billy.
[Billy is obviously talking about his experience on the Council when they ran the gas works.]
R-There’s half a dozen vans flying about today and look at t’price of electricity. They used to preach if there were any profit it ‘ud be given back to the consumer but it never is and never will do, it never will because they starts with their big schemes and spends it.
Now Billy, you’ll be able to remember the days when it wasn’t the Labour Party, it were ILP and SDP, you’ll be able to remember that won’t you.
R-Aye, Independent Labour, aye well you see the Labour Party sprang from the Liberal Party you know. Now in’t Labour Party today there’s a fringe of communism among it. They aren’t declared communists but they have that leaning towards communism you see.
Can you remember when the Communist Party started in Barnoldswick?
R-Well I don’t know, I can’t say, I’ve forgotten now you know. You know a lot of these communists, if they had to say in Russia what they say here they’d disappear into Siberia.
Aye, th’art happen reight theer.
R-I’m certain because they can’t afford to let ‘em stump up and down the country you see, it’s against ‘em. So consequently they have to liquidate them you see. Now here, you can say what you like you see. If you want to be a candidate you can, as the electors put you in, if you want.
So when you come to think about it, there’d be a lot of men that thought the same as you. There’d be a lot of men that were the same way of thinking as you, a lot of working men and all. I mean you’re father was a Conservative wasn’t he?
R-Well, at one time he were a big Liberal, a big Liberal, aye.
So there’d be a lot of men in the unions that weren’t socialists.
R-Oh yes. You see, at these conferences, these union executives, they’re putting in block votes and there might be many a hundred among that block vote that wouldn’t vote for them you know. Well, that’s wrong.
Did you ever contract out of the levy, you know, the union Labour Party levy. Did you ever contract out Billy?
R-Well, to tell you the truth I never paid a union a halfpenny in me life.
Is that reight?
R-No, I never!
Well that’s a surprise Billy because I thought that you had a job to be a taper unless you were in the union.
R-No, there weren’t a union for tapers then. No, there were nothing. When I think, it happened about the time I were finishing. They were coming round to getting ‘em in. Aye, they come from Nelson.
Well, I’ll be damned, I thowt it were earlier than that.
R-But I says, I says ‘Well, I’ve been in taping for thirty years and I’ve allus getten, I’ve been fortunate happen, but I’ve allus getten what I’ve wanted. And it’s a funny thing but I always did. When I wanted owt I says to t’boss, I says ‘I’m underpaid!’ I says So and So gets so and so, I popped a bit on you know. He says well, I’ll enquire and if I find out thart reight we’ll make it reight. So I got that, and he comes to me in a fortnight and I thought I’m bahn to have another do at him but he come to me and he says Thart reight. He made it reight, it made about eight bob a week difference, eight bob were a lot then. So I says [to the union] I’ve allus getten what I wanted, I’ll finish me time out now without. You know I were thinking of going to Blackpool. Well, t’boss, he were sorry when I went, manager told me they’d been talking in the office and they said they were sorry I was going.
You were working at Westfield then?
R-Well I were leaving you see.
So you worked at Westfield then Billy, you taped at Westfield all the time did you?
R-Aye, from ‘em starting in 1911 up to 1943. Aye, of course we used to talk straight to one another did me and the boss you know.
When you say ‘The Boss’, who were that, one o’t lads?
R-Well, in later days it were th’eldest son made into t’boss. Th’old chap kept in’t background.
What were th’eldest son’s name?
R-Chris.
That’s Christopher Brooks.
R-I once telled him, Tha’ll either win or draw. He says I shall win. So I buggered off back to t’tape and left him, we used to fall out a bit like that you know. But he’d come up again after an hour or two after all reight, it were finished wi’. Play hell happen sometimes and then bugger off and then come back and he were all reight after, aye. Well, everybody’s reight as long as they work to their conscience, do as your conscience tells you, you’re reight in th’eyes of God, aye. But if you don’t work to your own conscience you aren’t reight you see.
You’re reight but has everyone got a conscience Billy?
R-They will have only they don’t listen to it you see. They don’t, they shove it to one side for their own particular purpose you see, aye. They shut their ears to it.
[Billy drops his matches and we had to look for them.] Here you are Billy, they’re on the floor here on your right.
R-There isn’t so damned many in them when I get ‘em!
No, you’re right about that [conscience] me Dad used to say something about that and I’ve never forgotten it. He always used to say that many a time when there were things he’d done and things he had to do and he always said his biggest job weren’t convincing other people that he were right, it were convincing himself.
R-Well, aye , aye. He’s a point there.
Aye he said once I’d done that he said he were all reight.
R-That’s reight, yes, well he were going to his conscience. Now it doesn’t mean to say that because you followed your conscience that you’d allus be reight. You see you may not be. But if you’ve gone according to your conscience you’re reight in a way.
Yes, you’re morally right.
R-According to the way you’ve looked at it. The angle you’ve looked at a thing you see, you’re reight.
I see what you mean Billy. I understand what you mean.
R-But in’t nationalised industries there isn’t that incentive, they know they’re reight you know. They know they’re reight and they’re working for a good firm so there’s no incentive. Now look at Silentnight, you’ve to work at Silentnight, there’s allus somebody looking round to see if you’re doing sommat. But there isn’t in them nationalised industries, same as Rolls Royce and all of them. But Silentnight there’s allus someone knocking about. Consequently t’wheels allus going you see. That’s the way it is. That’s the difference between a nationalised industry and t’other.
And would you say Billy that it ‘ud be true to say that the biggest part of working men need someone to keep ‘em going?
R-Aye they do, yes. Robinson Brooks once come up to me, he used to come talking to me did th’old chap you know, How are you going on. Like. Well, he says, I’ve just come…. Folk you know, a lot of ‘em, you’ve to watch ‘em he says. They aren’t all alike but some has to be watched or they’ll do nowt, he says. He says You’ve to keep ‘em doing and he were reight, aye. He says I’m not alluding to you. No, I were allus alike, if t’boss came in I didn’t run up and down like a bloody fool same as some on ‘em. As if they were doing all t’work in’t shop. I went on me own way all the time you see. But some on ‘em, when t’boss is there they’d like, you know it’s all go, and then when he goes away the buggers are doing nowt. Now they play heck about bosses but if you didn’t act strict they’d slack would a lot of folk. Same as getting ‘em in, of a morning, when they start. If you let ‘em trail in they’d gradually trail in at all times in a morning. ‘Oh, he never says owt, it’s all reight aye’. They pay so much a year for power and they want them looms running. If you let someone come five or ten minutes late, in a week that’s half an hour gone. Now t’bosses get a bad name because they have to be a bit strict you see. But as I’ve getten older I’ve seen a lot of that and I know why they have to do it. There were some on us a bit too bad I know.
Yes, I were just going to say Billy, I find this very interesting. I agree with what you say but when you start thinking about it some of the bosses, they just went over the edge a bit didn’t they? You know yourself that in the early days a lot of the manufacturers were making a lot of money very easily and they had people working for them who were in fact in very very poor circumstances.
R-Oh aye.
It was very unfair in a way, but would you say that over the years with the growth of the unions and people getting better educated would you say that things have levelled out a bit now, and I’m not talking about nationalised industries here. I’m talking about private enterprise. Would you say that things were working about reight now, you know, people are getting what they should out of the job.
R-Well, they’re getting more brass but they’ve getten so they can’t control folk today. There is no bosses, you aren’t a boss today, you can’t sack a chap for doing wrong.
No but I think like at Silentnight they manage to keep them well under the thumb theer don’t they.
R-Well yes they do but they pay a good wage.
Yes they do but you’re expected to work.
R-Well, what is there wrong about that?
Nothing at all Billy, nothing at all, I agree with you.
R-But that doesn’t pertain to nationalised industries. They’re ower manned. Because there isn’t that incentive to show a profit for the shareholders. You see you might have a thousand pound in a business and you want to see something for it. You can get six to nine percent in’t bank, in’t building society. Well, you’re risking a thousand pounds to build a factory to find work for folk, you want sommat for it you see. That’s the point.
I’ll give you an example, I was talking to Ernie Roberts the other night and he was telling me about when he worked for Cairns and Lang when they were at Calf Hall.
R-Fernbank I thing they’d be.
Right, well he was working at Calf Hall, it’d be about 1932 and he had some bad warps in. He had four looms and this particular week he said I stood at them looms all week and I’d one piece off, six shillings were one piece and his stamp [national insurance] was one shilling and ninepence and he went home with four shillings and threepence for a week’s work in 1932. he said That sort of thing can’t happen now. He was talking about very much the same thing that you talk about and the thing that strikes me is this, do you think that some of the bitterness from the old days, when people really thought they were badly done to, has hung on? Are there still traces of that left, people thinking Oh, t’bosses are all right, they’re making their money, this that and the other. How long does it take for memories of the bad times, such as there were then, to wear off?
R-Well, that generation has to die off you see and then t’others doesn’t know about it. There isn’t a lot knows about that now, you know, them old times. There’s a very few percentage of folk knows that.
It’s a thing that’s struck me a lot you know while I’ve been doing these tapes. For instance, Ernie had two brothers, now his eldest brother and him are both bow-legged because they had rickets, you know, with malnutrition, and yet his youngest brother’s all right. And Ernie said something to me one night, he said You know none of the Nutters were bow-legged. You know, as much as to say they’d never gone hungry and that sort of thinking has always stuck in his head and it’s understandable. But you know it makes me wonder how long that sort of thing hangs on.
R-You know, you’ll hear a lot of folks, socialists, preaching about Equality For All and all that sort of bullshit. If you read the Bible that so and so he sent all his sons out wi’ one golden piece, sent ‘em out into the world and one of his sons came back wi’ all t’lot. T’other had, they weren’t fit. Aye, it applies today does that.
Yes, well, all men aren’t equal are they, I mean, that’s impossible isn’t it, there’s good men and bad men. Good workers and bad workers.
R-But there’s good men for industry you see. That has foresight you see. And there’s men that’ll be connected wi’ them firms that knows nowt but there you have it. Now look at Churchill, he had foresight had Churchill. He says Russia in’t future, and he mentioned that, aye he says Russia’ll be the country we shall have to watch as time goes on, he’s reight. You see the trouble is when you adopt sommat you try to force it on everyone else, you think yours is reight and you try to force and they’re trying to do the same now. They’re grabbing all these here African countries. They’re giving ‘em guns and what not to murder one another, aye, rotten. Stalls me, I’m fed up wi’ it.
What do you think ought to be done then Billy? Leave ‘em on their own you know, leave them to find their own.
R-Well it’s best to find their own level because it’s only happen a handful that’s raving it up and if you start to find ‘em guns they’re up and down shooting people, first bugger that comes in sight. They’re going back a hundred years is a lot of ‘em there when they were eating one another. They find fault wi’ us for colonising but we’ve done away wi’ a lot of disease. We’ve sprayed them mosquito areas and we’ve stopped ‘em frae eating one another, we stopped ‘em all them old customs that were barbarous. I know we didn’t do it for nowt, we wanted trade, that’s what built the Empire up and we spent it wi’ war, fighting wars, and it’s gone. We’ve spent it and it’s all blown up in th’air, it’s terrible, it is. Colossal waste is war, it could be used in sommat better but what can you do. There’s nowt as ridiculous to me as war, blowing one another up. Making weapons that can shoot more folk wi’ pulling a trigger. By God, rotten when you come to think about it. Aye, now th’Arabs are feighting one another now. That’s best they want, to kill all thereselves off. They’re coming over here now kicking hell up, aye.
How about Ireland Billy?
R-Well, it’s a religious job is that you know, that IRA you know, it’s awful. It’s all, they start you know, preaching against the authorities you know, there’s allus sommat wrong. They’re murdering innocent folk. To me it’s terrible. I know that Ireland, they want t’lot, they want Ulster you know, all cementing. That’s natural but you see there’s three quarters on ‘em doesn’t want it are you barn to force them to go in to be ruled wi’ some they don’t want? You see that’s the point.
Aye. Can you ever remember the time Billy when Ireland wasn’t a problem?
R-Well I can tell of the time when it was ruled under us you know. They were agitating for Home Rule you know. They were traitors to us during the war you know, Roger Casement you know, they harboured him. And they’re coming across here in hundreds is th’Irish folk to get their living among us. Aye, we’re soft, we let everyone come in here, aye we’re soft, but there’s that many problems today, well you think, you give it up you know. But God made us like we are, there isn’t two that has the same opinions and they’re at it you know. Instead of accepting t’majority, do you see, when you’re sat round a table you should accept t’majority and abide by it but they’re allus kicking bother up you see because they’ve getten licked you see, they don’t like it. By God me pipe’s gone now, I don’t know.
Eh God Billy, th’art having trouble. Where’s it gone, here you are, here it is Billy.
R-You know I’ve allus thought about sweet reasonableness. Wi’ owt, half an apple’s better than no apple you see. If I could get me own , if I had an idea and I could get half of it going, better than none you see but they want t’lot or else nowt you see. You can offer these IRA owt but there’s nowt’ll suit ‘em nobbut their own rule, that’s what it is. Aye, if we had to give Ulster ower into Ireland there’s th’IRA there just the same. It ‘ud find something else to grumble about you know, they’d be antagonistic to t’government of the day you know, that’s the way they are you know. And still t’government of the day is sent in by the electors you see. But they don’t want to accept that you know. It’s all a question of playing to t’gallery, they want power, that’s where it is you see.. They want some power, they’re them sort of folk. They don’t like to be ordinary sort of citizens. They want to be in power you know, they want everybody to cheer ‘em you know and all that stuff, aye. Is these yours? [Billy has picked my matches up!]
No, you’re reight Billy
R-Are they mine?
No, no, they’re mine but stick to them, you’ve run out haven’t you?
R-Aye.
Stick to ‘em, it won’t be long before I’m going.
R-Well you know there’s that many problems today.
You say that Billy, do you think there’s more problems now than there used to be?
R-Aye, a lot, aye there were, in those days there weren’t these, all this upsetting and what not.
Aye, and how about, apart from politics and th’international situation and what not, ordinary life, do you think there were less problems in ordinary life in your younger days.
R-Well it went on quietly in a humdrum sort of way you know and people were satisfied wi’ what they had because they couldn’t get no more you see. So they were settled down to their self that they couldn’t get any more you see. And they made the best of what they had. They cut their coat according to their cloth you see, they wouldn’t do that today. They get everything that they want today, you see how it gets…… aye.
Yes. And of course in them days, say you’d been reasonably lucky like, as you’ve said quite a few times, if someone had a fair family like, you know, say three or four lads, and they were tipping up, they bought their own house. I mean really, that was the limit of those people’s ambitions wasn’t it, to be able to buy their own house and be in a job and be able to have just enough. In those days there wasn’t all this advertising was there, showing people what they could have.
R-You know in the old days folk used to go to their work and they tried to do a good day’s work. They tried to do a good day’s work you see, there were no clock-watching you know, wanting ower time and getting off home. They simply , they accepted the way they’d been brought up you see. Now, it’s swung too far has t’pendulum. It’s swung a bit too far you see, aye. You see if you and me had to put five hundred apiece into owt and started a bit of a business you know and built it up, you see the unions, these here that are working for you, they start making bother you know. You’re doing well and making a good profit and you sack a man for doing wrong, all out you see! That’s way it is today, a boss daren’t, he isn’t a boss today.
And what do you think’s t’cause of that Billy? What’s caused that situation to arise?
R-Well it might be that they’ve been preached to you see by these unions. Union tells ‘em that they aren’t getting enough. They’re getting a big fat wage you see is th’union secretary and if things go on without any bother they think he’s doing nowt for his brass so he has to start telling ‘em that they ought to be paid more than what they are, so that starts it off you see. Same as in a mill, If you’re a manager and you’re a good manager and you keep folk happy, sometimes somebody, t’boss might think well I don’t think there’s work for this chap like, there’s no bother about owt you see, but it’s him that’s causing [responsible for the smooth running] it you see. It’s him that’s looking at a thing, aye. It’s him that’s welding it together, there’s all sorts of ways of looking at a thing, aye. Now you might have another manager and there’s allus some bother cropping up you see. You’ve to have diplomacy to deal wi’ folk. Mony a time, mony a time you can sooth a man down by talking nicely to him instead of playing bloody hell fire. Get thi bloody hook out of here, th’art a nuisance! Or something like that. I dare say there’s lots of strikes caused wi’ that you know, they don’t use diplomacy you see. I don’t say that they’re all alike but….. Hey, we could talk all night about these things.
Oh aye, well it’s interesting listening to you talk Billy.
R-Now Brooks, they gave a hint more than once, they said You’ll not want to walk around a tape all yer life and they gave me a hint that I should be manager sometime. But there, sommat cropped up and they didn’t want to pay a manager a big wage you see and if I’d been made manager they’d have had to pay me a big wage, what I’d been making as a taper you see. They took the view that you’d nowt to do hadn’t a manager, you know, be dressed up, and they didn’t like that. That stopped it, it stood in my way did that you see, aye. Now they offered the cut-looker t’manager’s job because he’d nobbut get a cut-looker’s wage you see, aye. Now that were t’way it were, that stopped me from getting to be a manager did that. I’d too big a wage.
So that meant that down at Westfield they made a cut-looker the manager?
R-It would have done if he’d have taken it but he says Aye, but I’ll want more brass, so they donked it, he wouldn’t tek it. He telled me hisself, aye, but they’d hinted to me a time or two, if they’d come to me and said you can be manager if you take less wage. They might have said that, I don’t know.
But anyway, you never did get to be manager.
R-No, but when I telled him I were barn to leave he said you might have telled me. I said I’m telling you first, I only bought the business yesterday. I says You’re the first man I’m telling. He said Well, you might have told me.
SCG/Tuesday, 03 April 2001
4850 words.
LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT
TAPE 78/AB/7
THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON THE 13th of SEPTEMBER 1978 AT 17 CORNMILL TERRACE, BARNOLDSWICK. THE INFORMANT IS BILLY BROOKS AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.
[The first five minutes of this tape is an exchange between Billy and SCG about SCG being late.]
R- I’m more lively you see. I get out you know. Like last night, I set off about seven and had a good walk round by Long Ing you know and all round there and I finished up at me sisters. Aye, I’d a good hour and a half’s walk out, looking round th’old do at Long Ing where I used to work you know, when I were a lad, aye. Canal bank side there you know, aye. Where you go down to Ouzledale Foundry you know. I went down there and looked at th’old door where we used to go in and out and all that carry on. We used to get us breakfast you know at t’canal side there, fine weather you know, on th’old wharf. There weren’t a soul about only me, not a soul.
Long Ing Shed in 1978. This is the canal wharf Billy talks about.
I were talking to a bloke the other day about you Billy, he’s the feller that’s been teaching me history at night school and I asked him what questions he’d like to ask you. He gave me two questions, so here they are. Is that pipe empty Billy?
R-Aye, it doesn’t matter, it’s all reight.
No, here, it’s reight, I’ve got plenty of tobacco, don’t think that’s all I’ve got Billy, there’s plenty.
R-Aye, that’s it.
Aye, good lad. Now cast your mind back again to the Boer War, the African War.
R-Yes.
When the Boer War started did you understand what had caused it?
R-Yes.
Right, you tell me.
R-Aye well, you see old Paul Kruger were president you see and they wouldn’t allow anyone that went into the country to have a vote and we demanded that. Chamberlain, Joe Chamberlain were Prime Minister at that time and he demanded that they should have a vote. It looked a simple thing didn’t it but that’s what it were all about. And he [Kruger] wouldn’t allow them to have a vote in the country at all. So of course Chamberlain said Well, if you don’t allow that, what’s going to happen? So he declared war on ‘em you see. And so he were sacked were old Paul Kruger you know, aye. But that’s what it was, you might think it’s a simple do today but it were so, aye. Aye that’s what they did, aye. Of course it were, like we were colonising in them days you know, we were getting all they could you know. Old Joe Stalin said It’s a funny thing, he says a little island like England and he says they own all this red on the map, you know India and all that, aye, that’s what he said, aye. Well you know, they sent Redvers-Buller out and of course he were a failure were Redvers, he were one of the old stamp and of course these Boers were sniping at ‘em you know. They knew how to do to get ‘em, to do a bit of this bush fighting job you know and they knew all the ground and things were going worse way with us. So they sent Lord Roberts out, little fiery, wi’ a white moustache, Lord Roberts a right little fiery chap, they sent him out aye. And of course they eventually owercame them you know and occupied t’country, aye. They get to Pretoria, the capital you know. And General Smuts were one that were fighting again us and another or two, I can’t just get their names now and Smuts became a friend of ours at t’finish. He were president, Prime minister you know and he were like a friend to this country in’t finish. We had a good Governor General there at the time, I’ve just forgotten t’names on ‘em an all now. We had a Governor general and of course they had a parliament of their own you see. But they were under our supervision you know, they were one of our colonies you see. And smuts were a great friend of ours in the finish, and he were an enemy that were leading these Boers at one time. But there were another, I can’t just get it, there were two or three on ‘em good generals, they were all reight for their type of fighting you know. But ours were the old do, they called our soldiers Rui-necks, they were red necks you know. They called the British soldiers Rui-necks because they had, wi’ t’sun, they had red necks and red coats on. There were no khaki then, they were in red coats, th’old do you know. Fighting in th’open, aye. So they had a peace at Vereeninging or somewhere it were called. They had a peace talk there and of course it were all settled out and it were one of our colonies then you see. Until, I don’t know what year it were when they got their independence, no, I’ve forgotten now you know.
And the immigrants who hadn’t got the vote, did they get it after?
R-Oh well of course they had their own, old Paul was deposed you know so they settled down more our style then you see. I think that Lord Milner were in charge of there for some years. Lord Milner I’m nearly sure, aye.
Can you remember anything about, before the Boer war started, can you remember there were some people who were fairly sympathetic towards the Boers and they called them Pro-Boers.
R-Aye.
And Lloyd-George was…..
R-Aye well, t’Pro-Boers. Well t’Pro-Boers were them that were backing t’Boers up you see. They were sympathising wi’ the Boers, aye. They were sympathisers you see to the Boers. They were in th’opposition to Parliament at that time and of course th’opposition find fault wi’ everything you know. Pro-Boers, they were more friendly towards them than their own country you see.
What was the general attitude towards them? I mean, did the people that you knew, and yourself, did you think that we ought to go to war, you know, that we ought to go?
R-Well of course aye. Well we all fell into that sort of thing you know. We thought well, if they won’t give us equal rights when we go settling there like, you know, why not? It were simply Old Paul, th’old lad you know that were one o’t old school. Now you see there were that Jamieson Raid, Dr Jamieson were there you know and he had a raid and he were beat you know. It were a fiasco were that, aye. He were one of these here you know, th’old style you know. I’ll show ‘em, this that and the other, well he did it on his own you know. More or less did it on his own do you see, aye. Landed this country in a bit of a scrape did that, through that you know. It caused a lot of ill-feeling amongst the Boers did that. That led up to the war you know, that sort of thing that happened led up to the war. Th’old Kaiser you know, he were backing the Boers up in a way in his speeches. Chamberlain said sommat and t’Kaiser had like found fault wi’ what he said. Chamberlain says What I have said I have said. I withdraw nothing. Aye he telled the Kaiser that, aye. Now t’Kaiser said we were a nation of shopkeepers, th’old Kaiser, aye. He says England is a nation of shopkeepers, aye, that’s what he said.
Looking back Billy, do you think that the reasons we went to war with the Boers, do you think that they were good enough for going and having a war?
R-Well, to look at things now you think well, it isn’t worth going to war for in a way but you know at that time we were pioneering and colonising you know, we were. You might call us t’same as Russia’s doing today you see, they’re grabbing all they can you see. But of course we didn’t tyrannise ‘em the same as Russia does you know. Russia has ‘em all under the thumb. We didn’t do that, when we colonised. Folk said Well, it’s only so’s you can bleed ‘em like, but we did a lot of good in Africa. We got shut of a lot of them pests, mosquitoes and all that you know, but folks looses sight of that you see. You’ll hear a chap say, Oh, we’re nobbut plundering them and this that and the other you know. But now we’re paying millions to re-habitate the country, we’re paying millions out to them now, aye. To develop the country, aye.
When the Boer War was going on you’ll remember of course that we were the first to start using concentration camps, you know, getting all the enemy together behind barbed wire weren’t we, out there. Did you know anything about that while it were happening?
R-Aye well, there were a camp of that sort, but they had a lot of our prisoners in a camp and all at one time. I knew one chap, he were a Barlicker, in Pretoria. Aye they put ‘em behind bars, well things were settled you see. They took ‘em prisoner you know and put ‘e in this camp you know. But of course they were all released when t’peace were signed you know. We put a Governor General in there, Lord Milner I think it were at one time and it’s sailed on ever since you know.
But if you remember at the time, I can’t remember who said it, but in this country at the time it was described as ‘methods of barbarism’. You know there was trouble at that time in this country. I mean, I know that at one time Lloyd George was on to Chamberlain about it in Parliament. First of all he was asking him what the latest estimates of how many Boers there were because, I’ve forgotten the figures, but at one time Chamberlain said that there were 12,000 Boers and Lloyd George wanted to know how he accounted for the fact that we had 27,000 of them, either killed or wounded or else in the concentration camps. He wanted to know how many more there could be.
R-Aye well there were sommat o’t sort but after a while you know, the country settled down, they couldn’t let them out you know because they’d happen start again you see. They wanted t’country to get settled down you know in the democratic way we believe in you know.
And when the Boer War was over, and of course you went out there, you were on that hospital ship. When you came back did the African War alter your attitudes afterwards, you know, the Empire and colonisation and all Billy. Did it make you think about the empire and the reasons why we were out there and whether we should be there?
R-Well you know, at that time we were more Imperialistic than what we are today. We liked to beat everybody. [Billy now starts singing….] ‘Soldiers of the Queen me lads’ Aye, and all that sort of thing. There were more of that Jingoism then than what there is today. [Billy sings again…] ‘We proudly point to every one of England’s soldiers of the Queen’. That’s what we used to be singing at that time in the street, aye.
Oh, you sang it in the street?
R-We used to be singing that when they were sending any men away you know. They’d play ‘em to the station you see when they were going away, these ambulance men do you see. The band ‘ud play ‘em through the streets you know, to t’station and we used, we young ‘uns used to sing, hey lads, there you are! [Billy sings again…] ‘Soldiers of the Queen my lads’
You’re all reight Billy, you’re all reight! We’ll have a small pause now while we light us pipes!
R-We suffered a disaster at t’far end of the war at Colenso, battle of Colenso, aye. We lost a lot of men there, that do, aye we did. Now they sacked Buller then. I read an account of it but you know they were th’old type of officers in them days, you know where there were none of that there strategy fighting. It were all out in the open you see. Well you know, when you get there you know, they knew the ground you see did them Boer generals. They knew every nook and corner you see and they used to get out of sight and you couldn’t see ‘em. Aye.
Aye, I don’t suppose the British Army thought that was fair.
R-Well, simply that it was a bit strange to our troops you know were that sort of fighting.
Aye, it wouldn’t be cricket Billy.
R-You know the Kaiser called our army the ‘Contemptible Little Army’ ‘cause we were a naval power, you see, we had a small army. He said ‘The Contemptible Little Army’ did t’Kaiser, aye.
Aye, can you remember just before the First World war, can you remember the controversy about the Dreadnoughts? Can you remember the arguments about the Dreadnoughts and the reasons they gave why they had to build them. You remember the Dreadnoughts don’t you?
R-Oh aye. Well, we were the leading naval power in the world then you see. We were dependant on trade routes for us living and for us food do you see. If there were any danger of anybody cutting us off, we wanted power you see, so that’s why they built it up you see, but Germany were doing the same you know. Aye, and we got 15 inch guns aye. Now I think Churchill were the instigator of them 15 inch guns. Well, they’re all scrapped now are them, now they’re all these frigates and submarines and all that aye. The reason why America came into our war you know was Pearl Harbour. We had two modern battleships, new ‘uns, Prince of Wales and the Hercules. [Repulse?] and the Japanese came over with their aircraft and they sunk ‘em both and they were brand new, Prince of Wales and they all went down wi’ ‘em. Well they did t’same wi’ one of the American vessels, that’s what brought America in, aye. [Billy is of course talking about WWII when he mentions Pearl Harbour and the Prince of Wales and the Repulse.] They were hanging fire were America, we were on us own. They made a big mistake sinking one of the Americans, and that brought them in like. Pearl Harbour, aye. Grand battleship were that there Prince of Wales, modern by God. Captain went down wi’ it, they all went down wi’ it aye. They come ower ‘em and they dropped bombs on, aye. I remember the schoolmaster telling us in class one morning he says England is the workshop of the world. And we were then, we were. He says ‘England is the workshop of the world’. Now that were about 1890, aye. Isaac Barrett were the school master, aye.
Aye, that’s it. You’d be eight years old wouldn’t you. What did they teach you then Billy about the Crimean War? Did they tell you anything about the Crimean War?
R-Well I forget you know. That were like a war that in Russia, wi’ part of Russia when th’army of ours went. Duke of Wellington and he had his guards lined up one morning and he looked at ‘em and he says Well, I don’t know what effect they’ll have on the enemy but by God, they frighten me.
Aye that’s it Billy.
R-They were a rough lot in them days you know. They were a rough lot.
I don’t know whether that were the Boer War.
R-It were t’Crimean War were that.
Is that when it were?
R-Aye. [We were both wrong. Wellington is reported as having said this on reviewing a draft of troops sent to him in Spain in 1809. Also attributed to George III.]
I’ve heard of that before. He says By God, they frighten me. Well, I think actually that Wellington were a fair feller. I think he must have been a good man, Wellington. Like a bloke once said to me, Any man who can invent the Wellington Boot must have been all right. Anyway, let’s see what Norman has on here [Norman Lowe’s two questions for Billy. Norman was teaching me history at the time in Open College at Nelson and Colne College.] When you were going to school, you went to what’s now Gisburn Road School didn’t you? No, no, you went to the Wesleyan School didn’t you.
R-Wesleyans, aye. There were t’Wesleyans and Church of England school. Church, aye.
Can you remember the Board Schools starting?
R-Board School?
Aye, when the Board Schools came in. That’d be before you were born. There’d be, Gisburn Road ‘ud be a Board School. When was Gisburn Road School built? Of course, Gisburn Road wasn’t built until later.
R-No, Board, Skipton Road, it weren’t built then. It would be built about 1902, sommat like that.
Aye, you’re going to be right there Billy, you are.
R-There were, you know where t’Pigeon Club is? Down Butts. That used to be a school. And then there were a woman, I’ve forgetten her name now, I were too young.
That’s it, that was the first [The National School used to be in the building down Butts.] That school down there originally, I think the church started that school, but that was a Board School. [wrong]
The Pigeon Club in Butts in 1982. This was originally the National School.
R-Well, you could be reight.
Yes, I’ve read about it somewhere Billy.
R-I think you’ll be reight.
[Then a short conversation about the time]
Can you remember what political party your father voted for? Who did your father support, were it Tories or Liberal?
R-He were a Liberal when I were a lad but then he turned ower and he finished up in the Conservative Party.
What made him change course Billy?
R-Well I don’t know, I don’t know what made him change at that time, I were nobbut young.
Well, just about the time when you were at school were when they were forming the Socialist Democratic Federation and the ILP.
R-You know at that time there were no Labour Party. There got to be four, and that’s all, John Burns, Kier Hardie and another two.
That’s it, and who did you vote for Billy?
R-Well. I didn’t get a vote while [until] I were wed. They didn’t get a vote then you know unless you were a householder. You hadn’t a vote, you had to be a householder to be able to vote then.
And who did you vote for then Billy?
R-Well I voted Conservative.
Aye. And did you never think of voting Labour you know?
R-No.
Why not?
R-Well, like it’s a long story. I never fancied ‘em. They’ve landed us in some sorry messes wi’ cutting defences down and we’ve been landed into wars and we’ve nowt to feight ‘em wi’ through them. They’ve done it twice else three times. They’ve done it…. Two wars they’ve cut t’defence down and we hadn’t enough shells to fire at one time. We were in battle and we’d nobbut about ten shells. They could nobbut fire one every so often to make ‘em believe we had plenty and it’s through them and they’re on the same racket again. They’ve cut defence down and they’re at rock bottom. If there come to be a war now we should lose tens of thousands of men afore we were ready. It were t’same both wars. We lost thousands of men afore we were ready, we hadn’t the stuff. No. They’re friends of every country but their own. They’ll back every country but their own lot.
How about Fabians Billy?
R-Aye well, I never thought much about them. To tell you the truth I’d forgotten about them, it’s a long while since you know.
Aye, Shaw, Wells, Beatrice Webb. Do them strike any chords?
R-And Philip Snowden.
Oh, were Philip Snowden wi’ t’Fabians? Were he one o’t Fabians?
R-I believe he were, he lived just t’other side of Skipton.
Aye, he got to be t’Labour Chancellor did Snowden. The Iron Chancellor, aye.
R-When I went to school you know we paid fourpence a week, and it got down to a penny.
What were that for.
R-Ah, we had it to pay.
Oh, for school, that’s it.
R-For school aye. We had it to pay.
Now between 1906 and 1914 when the Liberals got in. You know Liberals got in with a big majority didn’t they in 1906.
R-Aye, William Clough. Billy Clough they called him, aye. He beat Roundell you know.
Oh I see, that were for the Skipton Division.
R-Aye.
Now when they got in, if you can remember, they started trying to put a lot of reforms through, you know, like pensions and what not.
R-What they called Liberal Reforms.
That’s it, what did you think of that?
R-Well of course I’ve forgotten a lot of what went on at that time you know.
Aye, it’s reight Billy, it doesn’t matter, it’s just to see……
R-You know, the Socialist Party, it’s grown out of the Liberal Party.
Yes, you’re quite right. Well, that’s one of the things you see, that a lot of people hold the opinion that one of the main reasons why the Liberals went on so …., did so much for the workers just then was that they were trying to steal the Labour Party’s fire. You know the few Labour men that had got in, there were what, about….
R-But I can’t see, life of me, what difference there is between them and the Conservative Party. I don’t know what difference there is.
You mean between Liberals and Conservatives?
R-Yes. I don’t see much difference. It’s only a question of, you know, making a bit of a do about sommat, that’s all. It’s all hypocrisy, aye.
Aye, I think a lot of people might believe it. Course you never were a great party man were you. You thought that, like in local politics. I mean that your opinion is that party politics should have been kept out of it, shouldn’t they, in local government. Can you remember the Labour Exchanges starting?
R-Aye, about 1940 or something like that.
Ah, they had them before then Billy. They started ‘em before.
R-Well, they might have started a bit before. And then I know when I worked at Coates, in 1947 we’d no stamps then. No stamp cards or owt. [Billy is a bit off here, he left Coates in 1912 to go to Westfield]
No, wait a minute, in 1947 you were in Blackpool Billy.
R-Aye, I were, aye let’s see, it were 1943 when I went to Blackpool.
When were you working at Coates?
R-There were no stamp cards then.
Aye.
R-No but labour exchanges ‘ud be set up a year or two after that I think.
Can you ever remember a thing called the Osborne Judgement? About December 1909.
R-What were it?
The Osborne Judgement. It was a feller down in London took the union to court because he didn’t think, he was a Tory and he didn’t think the union should be taking money off him for the Labour Party.
R-Oh aye, you could contract out.
That’s it. So he took his union to court, can you remember that?
R-Aye I remember it now you’ve mentioned it. They allowed ‘em to contract out do you see. Well, I think it ‘ud be the Conservative party that brought that in, I think so, allowing ‘em to contract out.
Aye. Well actually it was a result of the court judgement.
R-Aye, it would be, yes.
Aye but you see the interesting thing about, I know, it’s a bit of an inquisition tonight, I know but I’m asking… I’ll tell you the reason why. The interesting thing is that, and this is something I’ve been on about it for a bit. If you read the history books about the times when you were alive and working, round about, between 1890 and say 1920, and if you’ll go to one of these historians and ask them what were the most important things that happened, they’ll come out with a long list of things like the Osborne judgement and the start of labour exchanges and old age pensions and workman’s compensation and things like that. Now the interesting thing is that if you talk to people like you who were actually alive then, and I mean they are intelligent people, these things never really made an impact on you. You don’t remember these things as clearly as you do, say, the strike at Long Ing Shed in 1899 or something like that. It’s very interesting that the things that the historians say are important things aren’t necessarily the things that were important to people like you who were working for a living, you understand what I mean?
R-Aye. Now of course in the 20’s we’ll say, at election time, we didn’t study reason or owt you know, we used to cheer owt what they said. It didn’t matter what it were we used to cheer like hell in’t meeting and we didn’t know what they’d said sometimes. [Laughter] We used to enjoy them dos, aye.
Aye, more of an entertainment eh?
R-You see, a lot of them things that you mentioned afore, wi’ us being young, we knew, we read about them but we weren’t interested enough.
That’s it, aye.
R-We didn’t bother about the result or what it ‘ud cause or owt. In fact we had no troubles, we were at home, and we were getting a penny in the shilling, you know, for pocket brass and we didn’t care no further.
Now I’ll tell you something I want to know particularly. Think again about what they called , what they always called The Great Lockout in 1911. It was when there was trouble over non-union labour and the owners locked the weavers out. Now what can you remember about that in 1911?
R-Well, I don’t remember them locking ‘em out but they come out on strike for that extra payment for local disadvantage that the manufacturers had been getting. They wanted that knocking off you see. They [the manufacturers] had paid them a bit less for local disadvantage wi’ being down a branch line.
So in Barlick at that time you can’t ever remember a time when the manufacturers shut the mills down and said, Right, we’re locking you out. They never locked ‘em out?
R-I don’t remember ‘em locking ‘em out, I don’t remember that.
No. Well, the funny thing is that nobody does. And yet that’s another thing you see, if you read what the historians say, they say that the Lancashire Cotton Industry was just about brought to a complete standstill. Now whether Barlick was an isolated case, I don’t know, but in Barlick, as far as I’m able to make out, all that happened was that they got in as many tramp weavers as they could and weavers that didn’t want to go on strike, that weren’t in’t union and they carried on as best they could and in the end the weavers had to go back.
R-Well you see, in Barlick the union, they hadn’t much brass so the northern Counties Textile Association took it ower you know and started paying folk that come into the town so much a week to keep out of the shed. What they called Loom Pay, it were naught but eight bob a week.
Aye, can you remember before the First World War Billy, aye, just at the beginning of the first World War, can you ever remember anybody being worried about depression in the industry, about the industry declining. Did anybody ever, was anyone worried about the industry going down?
R-Well, t’cotton trade were like this ever since I could tell. Even when it were at its peak, there were always periods of slump and it ‘ud get short time sometimes for a while. It just seemed to be that buyers were holding off you see. They weren’t buying, whether they’d got thereselves stocked up or what I don’t know but it ‘ud last a while and then there’d be a kind of rush and they’d get good prices, what they called good margins. You’d go on like that for happen a couple of years and then there’d happen be another easing off and sometimes it happened just afore Christmas and they weren’t buying do you see. That’s the way the cotton trade went on ever since I can tell, aye. It were up and down and up and down.
And after the first World War there were a boom for a year or two weren’t there.
R-Well you see the market of the world had got emptied and shelves were empty and you couldn’t make enough. And they were getting big margins you know, what they called profit margin you see, aye. Oh aye, there were a good run, aye there were, aye and when the war started they were all right [WWII] but of course they could only run so many looms do you see. And them that had looms running had to pay a levy and then when the war was over you know and things were settling down, you could apply to that there fund, at t’top o’t Butts, to the union. He had distribution of that pay, I’ve forgotten what they called it, aye.
And when the 1914 war started how serious did people , well, before it started up, when it were coming up, how seriously did people take it? Did they think that there was going to be a war?
R-Well, there were rumours about it you know. Then it got from one thing to another and folk were on tenterhooks you know. And all in the paper about what were going to happen, this that and the other and then it came as a bombshell you know. These young uns, they weren’t axing their parents, they were buggering off to the recruiting office and getting in, aye.
Can you remember people talking about the possibility of war before it happened. There a lot of stuff in the newspapers wasn’t there?
R-Oh yes, yes. I remember being in Ireland afore the second world war, we get in wi’ some Canadians and they said It sounds like there’s going to be a war. Aye they did.
Well Billy, it’s been hard work for you this week, with pushing you.
[Billy Brooks died on the 25th June 1982 and as near as they could tell was reckoned to be 99 years old. He was a wonderful informant and a great character. A privilege talking to him.]
SCG/Wednesday, 04 April 2001
5154 words.
