The Lancashire Textile Project 2013

LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/1 (Side One)

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JUNE 19TH 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.




Jim Pollard in 1979.


Right Jim, how old are you?

R- sixty-two.

So you were born in nineteen…

R – Sixteen.

... Sixteen. And where were you born?

R- Cottontree, Colne.

Can you remember the address?

R- I can't remember the address at all Stanley.

No. How long did you live in that house where you were born?

R- Three months.

Three months. And .. what other houses did you live in when you were young?

R - I lived at Earby, 53 Red Lion Street till I were .. 15.

Yes. And can you remember why the family moved from Cottontree?

R - To become bakers.

Yes. So 53 Red Lion Street, was the, was that the baker shop?



The bakehouse on Red Lion Street, Earby. The back-stone that Jim mentions later on was on the inside of the gable end wall and served by the chimney above.

R- Bake, bakehouse.

Yes. So you lived at the shop? Yes?

And where was your father born?

R- Cottontree.

And what was his full name?

R - Alfred Pollard.

Alfred Pollard, And where was your mother born?

R - Cottontree.

Cottontree of course is at Colne.

R - Yes.

Yes, aye. How many brothers and sisters did you have?

(50)

R - One half sister, step sister.

So that was your mother's daughter, was it?

R - Me father’s daughter.

Your father's daughter. So he was married twice?

R - Married twice.

Do you know where his first wife was born?

R – Cottontree.

And she'd die would she?

R- She died in childbirth, at my sister's childbirth, half sister’s childbirth.

Is that right?

R – Yes.

So what year would that be?

R- Take it back, she is 75 now.

Seventy-five, so 1903. So there’s a lot of difference between you and your half sister? There is thirteen years…

R - Thirteen year's difference.

Was that very common then, dying in childbirth then?

R - Well I don’t know Stanley but that's what happened there.

Yes. And so you're obviously the second in the family?

R - That's right.

Yes. And when you were living at 53 Red Lion Street. Can you remember any relation ever living there with you?

R – No, me half sister didn’t, she lived at a place called Seacombe near New Brighton with one of me aunts.

Aye. And did you ever have any lodgers?

R - No.

And what was your father's job when you were born, when you lived at Cottontree?

R - Weaver.

Any idea where he wove?

(100)

R- It weren't Stanroyd Mill it were the mill higher up. Can't remember the name of the mill.

Aye. It doesn't matter, you are all right. And do you know if he ever did anything else but weave?

A - No he didn’t.

He was a weaver all his life?

R- Yes.

And how old was he when he died?

R - Fifty-five.

Fifty-five. And that’d be when, what year?

R - He died the same year as King George and he died a week after King George so that’d be 1935 wouldn't it? [George V died 20th January 1936 so this puts date of Jim’s father’s death at 27th January 1936.]

Aye, so when you were about to start work he died. Yes? And .. when he died, was that when you moved up to Barlick?

(5 Min)

R - No, when me father died…I weren’t keen on the bakehouse, ‘cause even when I went to school I knocked about mills. I were more inclined to go into the mill than t’bakehouse. So what we did, we had another twelve months in the bakehouse and then we moved out. [1937]

Yes. Who was doing the work in the bakehouse then, you and your mother?

R - Me mother and meself.

Yes. And what was your mother's job before she was married?

R - Weaver.

She was a weaver as well. Do you know where she wove?

R- Same place as me father but what they called it…?

Yes. It's right. It doesn't matter if you can’t remember. Did she work outside the home after she was married do you know?

R – No, she didn't.

No. And so obviously she’d look after the children, she’d look after you.

R - She looked after me.

Yes. And how old was she when she died?

(150)

R- Seventy eight.

Seventy eight? What year was that?

R - I think it’s like eleven year this time.

So that’d be nineteen sixty seven about?

R – Yes, round about that.

Roughly 1967. And … well your half sister did leave the town before. That’s it yes. Now then, the next questions are about the house and what not, and what you remember about the house. Now .. the house that you lived in as a child, you'll remember 53 Red Lion street, obviously you won’t remember anything about Cottontree?

R - I don't remember a thing about Cottontree.

That’s because you weren't old enough, that's it. Now then, 53 Red Lion Street, how many bedrooms were there?

R - Well to be [accurate] .. it were 53, 55, and 57, numbers of them houses.

Yes …?

R - Fifty seven was t’bakehouse, and 55 and 53, 55 was where t’front room was. 53 were where t’living room and kitchen was, and bedrooms. We had one, two, three bedrooms and a large bathroom. [So 57 was the bakehouse. I’ve been down there and the large fireplace that originally held the backstone is still in situ.]

Ah. So you actually lived in three houses in a way, you had three houses with the shop and the living accommodation

R - That's right, yes. That’s right.

And what sort of houses would they be? You know, what would you describe then as?

R- Terraced.

Were terraced houses. But were they back to back or…

R- No, terraced with a garden at the back, what we ...

So you'd have three gardens.

R- Well, we'd one garden but it were a big garden.

Yes that's it. And what other rooms were there? Besides these?

R - Well, which covered these three numbers and up to the bakehouse alone, we had what we could call a glasshouse built on where we did washing. And in there we had a big stove. With a gas tarred roof you know, and the old stove pipe coming through, wood floor with like an asbestos end painted with gas tar and such. And that looked out on to all this ground at the back.

(200)

Yes, so your father moved there in …well about 1916-17, during the first world war.

R- He’d move …yes, round about, aye, just after that.

Yes. When you were born, just after you were born? Can you remember any of the furniture at all?

R – Eh, what sticks out in my mind were the old grandfather clock. It filled one corner of the house nearly, to t’ceiling top. It had t’moon on with moon Phases. And I can remember the big weights. Now them would amaze me, I used to wind them up, they’d be about sixteen inch in length and happen about five inch round, solid they were. Well it were … it used to tickle me did that, winding ‘em up. And then we had a piano, and one, I can remember, one key wouldn’t play. I were meant to take piano lessons, but I would sooner be down at t’Punchbowl football field, or else the cricket field. And when I had to stay in, I might have banged the piano round and the key broke off it. Well, I’d never have made a pianist or owt like that. And I can remember two rocking chairs we had, and one had come from the old family, one were th’old grandad’s. And he had a cut out in one place on the arm, and he used to crack nuts in it, so they said, I never saw him. And then, in what we called the best room, which was number 55, we had like one of those, I don’t know, like a Chippendale suite in it, some big paintings ... Now where

(10 min)

them paintings went to I don’t know, we lost them after me mother got married the second time and she moved to Birmingham, and they were put in storage you see. So, well that’s about all I can remember of the furniture. I had no interest in owt like that and I were more for going out and …

(250)

Aye that’s it, yes. You're saying your mother married again. That was, obviously, after 1935. Yes.

R- That’s right. Roughly about eighteen months after. And then we moved up to Sough . It was near to Sough. Well you call them playing fields now.

Yes, that's it, the War Memorial at Sough. When were, what year was that?

R - Going into nineteen thirty-seven.

Yes, so that’d be two years after your father died. Yes, so that’d be when you left the bakehouse you'd go and live at Sough. But you've got to live at Sough before you came to live at Barlick. Well obviously your mother wouldn’t come to Barlick with you. I never realised that. Now you came to Barlick and your mother married and ...

R - And then they finished up and went to Birmingham.

Yes, that’s it, aye.

R - And I came to live in Barlick In 1938.

Yes, that’s it, yes. And did you ever, you know, your best room, you know, number fifty-five were it? Red Lion Street, what did you use that room for, was it ever used?

R - Really it were used mainly at Sundays. Not every week, but certain times if me sister were coming, or any relations you know?

That’s it, yes, yes.

R - And they all seemed to come on a Sunday.

And which room did you have your meals in?

R- In the, mostly in the glasshouse, you know, in what we called t'big kitchen.

And where did your mother do the cooking?

R- In't big kitchen.

Yes, in t’glasshouse. And where did she do the washing?

R - I think in the kitchen, the glasshouse.

Yes. And you've already said you had a bathroom.

R - Yes.

Now it wouldn’t be very common … When was the bathroom put in there, have you any idea?

R - The bathroom were in when we moved in, as far as .. it's always been there as I could remember.

Yes, aye. That wouldn't be very common in those days would it, a bathroom? You know like then?

(300)

R- No, same as them that lived at ... 51, they hadn't a bathroom, they used to have a tin bath. I don’t think there were anybody there, apart from us, in that road that had a bath.

Aye. Do you think that was perhaps because it was a bakehouse? One of the reasons why?

R- I should think so, that's the only thing I can put it down to.

They'd be a bit better off and they had the room so…

R- Yes, that's right,

…they had a bathroom. Aye. And when you were a lad did you have a special bath night?

R - Bath night, special bath night were always Friday night.

That's it aye. It’s funny, it nearly always was, aye, yes.

R- And everything had to be, a complete change from t’vest onward you see.

That's it, aye, how about the lavatory?

R - Lavatory? It was in with, where t’bathroom was.

So it was an inside toilet

R - An inside toilet

And did it have a tippler as well outside or they'd have it done away with it?

R - We had no tippler.

Ah .. yes.

R - Only thing I remember about a tippler were me sister at Cottontree.

Yes. That’d be a tippler there. There were a lot of tipplers in Earby, we had a tippler at Sough. And obviously the house would have piped water?

R – Yes, we used to have the big cistern cupboard even then, where t’toilet and t'bath were.

So you had a hot water system, as well.

R - Yes.

And what was that from, a back boiler?

R - Back boiler.

About the bakehouse itself. What was the oven in the bakehouse?

R- What, we’d got what you'd call the backstone which were a built up brick thing, with two big thick pieces of iron where you make crumpets and oatcakes and milk cakes, muffins.

That's it, and .. how was that fired.

R - Coal.

Coal, so it was a coal fired oven.

R - Coal fired oven.

Did your father over put turkeys in at Christmas for people? And such as that, did he ever… Some bakehouses used to didn't they?

R – Well, they'd have a job putting them in Stanley because you did all your baking on the top of them flat iron plates.

It wasn't enclosed?

R - Oh no, no it were open.

So you weren’t actually baking like.

R - You weren't baking bread and such as that, you were just baking oatcakes, milkcakes, muffins, crumpets.

(350)

Aye …Ah I see yes. [At the time I knew nothing about back-stone baking and didn't really understand it. I later found it was very common in this area and the main products were oat-cakes and muffins, all baked on the thick iron hotplate like a very large griddle.]

R - Which seemed to be the thing in them days.

Yes. Well I suppose a lot of people’d bake their own bread wouldn't they?

R - Me mother baked her own bread in the gas oven which we had in the kitchen.

Yes. Now that's it. And the shop, did it have a shop window?

R – No. It didn't have a shop window Stanley. He used to hire men to come and take this stuff out you see, in baskets.

Oh so you didn't sell it from the shop so much, people, obviously some people would come to the shop,

R - Some'd come to the shop that wanted some, you know, but…

But most of it'd be sold out in baskets ...

R - In baskets.

Round the houses?

R - Yes.

Aye … that’s interesting, I didn't realise that. Was that uncommon then do you think?

R – No, it were common because there were, there were another baker that did t’same thing in Earby as what we did. Then you got them all round Nelson doing that. At one time I used to pedal an old bicycle to Barlick and they used to come with a basket on the front. I used to have a carrier at t’front on me bike and I used to put a basket in there and I used to bring oatcakes and muffins and crumpets to Wallace Horsefield’s the pork butcher.

Whereabouts was his shop?

R- Bottom of Park Road which is now Penny’s, Chemist.



Penney's, which used to be Wallace Horsfield's butcher's shop is the white building on the left.

That’s it, yes. And can you remember where your father got his flour from?

R- Well there used to be Greenwood’s and Appleby’s then, and they used to bring it straight to the bakehouse.

They were millers?

R – Millers, yes. And where did they come from? Whether we, where they come from I don’t know. Preston or thereabouts. Used to come on their wagons.

That’d be delivered by motor lorry?

R - Aye and he used to have Greenwoods for one certain type of thing and Appleby’s for another. And then there used to be another’d bring your oatmeal from somewhere else.

Aye. Can you remember any of the prices that they used to charge then?

R- Oh I can’t Stanley, happen three ha’pence for a muffin in them days, a penny for a milkcake …

Aye. No that’s all right. Yes.

R - Or you’d get an oatcake with a penny, and you get thirteen if you got a dozen.

That's it, the baker's dozen.

R- Well I don’t know about the baker's dozen or not but .. you used to get thirteen.

Aye, that's right.

R - And we used to sell a lot to pubs, oatcakes, in them days, and
400).

they used to put it on a rack and it used to harden off and they used to sell stew and hard.

It's stew and hard. [Stew and hard was still common in the early sixties. I used to eat it regularly at the Craven Heifer in Kelbrook.]

R - Somebody didn't like stew they'd sell 'em some of this like New Zealand cheddar or sommat like that and onion on, cheese and hard.

Aye, that's it. Now then, back to the house itself Jim. Did you have a stair carpet?

R – yes.

What sort were it?

R – A narrow one, it wore red and blue. I think anybody that had a stairs carpet in them days, they were all t’same type.

Aye ... And do you remember any of the neighbours having a stair carpet?

R – Yes… I can't really Stanley, we must have been posh in them days. But we couldn't afford a stairs carpet what went up to the toilet, because, to t’bathroom, because it you come out of the bath we hadn't to have us wet feet on't carpet.

Oh, is that right?

R – We’d linoleum or oilcloth as they called it in them days.

That's it, aye. And what other floor coverings did you have on the rest of the floors in the house?

R – Oh, in the house?

Well, like when I say in the house, you know, in the … well say in the bedrooms.

(20 Min)

R - In the bedroom? We hadn't, we had just a small, what …pegged rug we used to have.

Yes, a pegged rug.

R - At each side of the bed was covered with oilcloth, linoleum.

Yes. And downstairs?

R- Downstairs we had a carpet on top of oilcloth, just square carpet.

Yes. And what kind of curtains did you have?

R- Curtains?

Yes.

R - Well we were, they were sommat similar to what they're coming back with now, but instead of being this fancy brass, they were like a wood with blooming big hooks on.

Yes… Yes, and did the neighbours have curtains as well?

R - Well, they’d either curtains or blinds..

Yes. What sort of blind?

R- Them that they pull up and down, paper they were.

That’s it, yes, spring blinds yes. And can you remember any families in Red lion Street not having curtains?

R- I can remember Alice Green next door, she had none.

No curtains at all?

R - None.

She didn’t put newspapers up at t’window?

R - Well, she would do if…

No, go on…

R - Well she put, you allus knew if there were a caller there, because she would put newspaper up to t’windows and he used to try and float out when it were dark, you see, but everybody got used to this.

(450)

Oh I see, so she was, she was tolerated.

R - Yea, she were tolerated.

Aye, aye .. and did they, women in the street, did they donkeystone the doorstep?

R - Well they used to put this here, give 'em a good scrubbing and then they'd come with the donkeystone and white edge ‘em. And .. that were on the step going into the house, but on t’window bottom they might do a bit different, they might just put a bit of yellow stone on t’bottom side and white edging at the top.

That's it, hard and soft. And .. how about the kerb stones, did anybody do, edge the kerb stone?

R - No.

No. And how was your house lit?

R-Gas.

Gas. And can you remember when you first had electric light? In Red Lion Street?

R- We never had electric.

You never had it while you were there. And how about the household rubbish, how did you dispose of it?

R - Well we used to burn a lot, but such an cinders ... I've forgotten how they were collected, I never remember dustbin men coming ... I can't even remember us having a dustbin!

It's all right, don’t worry about it. How did your mother do the washing?

R- Oh. In an old possing tub, I know there were wood rollers, and we used to have a boiler, gas boiler, she thought they were better, they'd come cleaner if they were boiled a bit.

That's it, boiler ...

R - So she took out of ‘em, and then put them in this wood machine and give them a spin you know wit' .. she had like a spinner which she did wheel around, and rollers were attached to this you know. So she gave ‘em a spin with this with a handle and then off with the lid, picked one end up and what we called mangled it through them wood rollers. And to alter the pressure, she used to have two tensions at t’top which she used to screw down

That's it, that was like a sort of washing machine.



An early hand-washing machine like the one Jim is describing.

R - Washing machine yes ...

That's it, yes. How often did she do the washing?

R - Twice a week.

Twice a week. And how long did it take her?

R - Well I couldn’t say Stanley, I weren't interested in such as household chores in them days really.

No. It's all right. How did she dry her washing?

R- Well in this ground we had which was attached to this … at the back.

Yes. And if it was wet?

If it was wet we used to have ‘em up against this stove, on what we used to call an old clothes horse, wood thing

(500)

Aye, clothes maiden, aye. And how did she iron her washing?

R - She used to heat her iron on t’gas and then she used to rub it on a rag.

Yea, so you mean they were flat irons and she used to heat them on the gas stove. That's it, she'd have a couple going at once. She didn’t use a box iron or a gas iron then?

R- No. I can remember I think we had a charcoal iron at one time, but she didn’t to a bundle on that.

Aye, she’d rather do 'em on all…

R – She’d rather sit ‘em on t’gas you know?

What do you remember most clearly about washing day? Is there anything that sticks out in your mind about washing day?

R - Well, only when I were getting older. She used to play heck about me cricket pants, they took a lot of mucking about with you know?

Aye that’s it. Grass stains?

R - Grass stain, green stain which took a lot of moving.

Aye. Oh, you had whites then?

R - Oh aye we had whites. We even had whites when we were at school, for cricketing.

Did everybody?

(25 Min)

R - Not everybody. Well, biggest part’d have a white shirt, and grey flannels. So we’d have our own flannels. But in them days if somebody were interested in the cricket team at school…his wife, the teacher's wife, would even, I've known her even buy a cricket shirt for a lad if he hadn’t one, they were that interested in the school team.

That was the wife of the school master.

R- Not the school master, one of the school teachers which were like games master.

Yes, that's it, yes. And how did your mother clean the house?

R – Well, she used to, they used to have one of them there sweepers what
you pushed it. What do they call them?

Ewbank?

R- Ewbank, that were it, that were t’name of it, Ewbank, yes.

Ewbank, yes.

R - And then she did the dusting t’normal way of dusting but she used to have a feather brush and all which seemed to be one o't doings that’d come in handy if she wanted to thump me now and again.

Not so bad it she were hitting you with a feather brush. Was there anything that she paid special attention to when she were cleaning the house ?

R- Well…

You know, any piece that ...

R – Furniture? Oh aye the piano and grandfather clock.

Any idea where the grandfather clock came from?

R - Oh, he’d been handed down for years. It were one of Old Pollard’s ... what do you call it?

On your father's side?

R - On me father’s side.

Were your father the oldest son do you know?

R– Yes.

Yes, because there used to be a tradition in this area, and I know that the clock was handed down to the oldest son.

R - but he had older sisters.

Yes but it… It did use to be the eldest son. And did you, and .. well, did you ever do any jobs in the house? Did you have any regular job that you had to do?

(550)

R – No, sometimes I had to mangle for me mum, turn t’mangle or feed an hen or two which we had on this ground at t’back.

Yes, you had a few hens out the back. Did you have any jobs to do outside the house you know like running errands or gardening apart from feeding the hens?

R – No, we never run .. we’d no garden at t’front Stanley, it were just flags and …you know.

Yes but I mean at the back you know?

R – No, we didn't have no garden at t’back.

You didn’t garden it no.

R – No, it were grass which were made into a cricket pitch.

Did your father do any work in the house?

R - Oh no, nothing at all.

Nothing at all. No.

R - Me father were one, as soon as he’d finished his jobs he’d have happen an hour’s sleep after tea and then he’d wander across to the Red Lion, which were only about ten yards from where we lived.

That’s it.

R - And that were his regular routine six nights in t’week, but he never went at Sunday.

He never went at Sunday.

R - I remember my mum used to say “I’ve never seen him come home drunk.” He’d come home a bit fresh, but never drunk.

Did the family own the house?

R- Yes.

Yes, have you any idea how much they paid for it when they bought it?

R- I haven't a clue Stanley.

Haven't a clue. Did your mother ever do anything, any work in the house to earn a bit of money for herself? You know?

R - No.

Nothing on the side. Do you remember if any other women in the neighbourhood did anything like that, you know, like taking in washing, or minding …

R – No, somebody might have looked after a child or two you know? Yes..

Yes, for those who were working at the mill, yes child minding.

R- Some of ‘em that lived up there’d be off out with the children at half past six to go in you know? Start work at seven.

Yes, in the mill, yes. Is that house still standing?

R- Yes.

And what did your mother cook on?

R- Gas stove.

That was outside in the greenhouse, glasshouse, glasshouse, yes.

R- In the glasshouse.

Did she have that gas stove when she first went there?

R- When we moved in it were there.

Yes. Can you remember anything about it?

R - Not a thing Stanley.

Ah .. And she made her own bread in the oven.

R - She made her own bread.

And how much did she make at a time?

R - I should say me mother baked every two days so as it were nearly always fresh broad, you know?

Yes. Did she bake cakes?

R - She used to bake sweet cakes. Yes.

What sort

R - Well, she did her own, you know like ... I should say they'd be cream cakes Stanley, you know? Baked in a … what's that there? six inch tin or eight inch tin and then put one on top of the other and make it into a great sandwich.

(600)
(30 Min)

How about fruit cake, seed cake and what not

R - Well she'd make currant cakes you know, just ordinary, t’same mixture but they'd have currants in and put in little bun tins and…

Pies .. ?

R – No, she used to make a lot of Eccles cakes or jam pasties and..

How about jams, marmalade?

R – No, she never made owt like that Stanley.

Pickles?

R - No.

Homemade wine ?

R - No.

Did she ever make any of, any of her own medicines, you know ...

R - Oh give over, she was a big, big believer in t’herb job, brewing this up and brewing that and …

Oh, yes, yes.

R – Holland’s Dutch Drops, she didn’t make them, but they could buy ‘em and they 'd cure all.

What were those? ..Holland?

R- What they used to call Holland Dutch, Holland Dutch Drops in them days.

And what were them for?

R - All aches and bloody pains you know. Same with Fenning’s Fever Cure, used to be all t'go, that were always in t’medicine cupboard. And then she’d be on with the Nipbone if I had any bruises.

How did she get them herbs, did she go out and gather them herself?

R - She used to go out and gather a few aye. There used to be old herb books in them days and so she'd go out and…

And what did you usually have for breakfast?

R - Well that's something which we never had, we never had breakfast.

So you didn't bother with anything in the morning or … ?

R- We didn't bother with anything, Stanley.

Nothing at all?

Nothing at all, only a drink

Drink and straight on to school?

R - .. which was tea.

Tea, yes. What did you have for dinner?

R- Sometimes we had nothing. I’m going back to school with just a tea cake in me hand.

Aye. How about Sunday dinner?

R - Sunday dinner? Well we’d a roast you know, a meal then a proper dinner, Yorkshire pudding, meat…

Every Sunday, Yorkshire pudding?

R - Not every Sunday.

No. What were the usual meat?

R- Beef.

Beef.

R – Aye, me mother didn’t like smallish ..mutton or,.. tha knows lamb, didn't like, didn't like mutton, beef, lamb. Pork were a bit of a favourite.

Aye, crackling.

R- Crackling.

Aye. So during the week you wouldn't have so much for tea?

R- Well, we’d a big tea, and then we were always late in going to bed and we always used to have a decent supper.

Aye. Yes, what would you have for tea say, you know, what would you call a good tea?

R - Fish.

Fish?

R - Fish, and potatoes and funny enough we’d always a chip pan, what we call a chip pan now, such as that. Or sometimes, I can, I can remember

(650)

odd times we used to have a damn big dish in the middle of the table with mussels in or cockles and you'd have a basin full of mussels, one of cockles and then you’d have another basin to throw your empties in, yes.

It, there seems to have been quite a lot of fish and cockles and mussels eaten then.

R – Well, they were cheap enough Stanley, weren't they?

Yes. And .. did somebody come round selling fish and .. ?

R - Well, they used to come round on an old horse and cart. We used to have a fellow called Laurie Nichol come round, he used to have a wooden leg, and he used to sell a lot of this. And we used to have a bull mastiff and that were its favourite do to get at, try to get hold of his wooden leg when he used to have It stuck out on't cart'

He didn’t by any chance have cats following him round did he.

R – No, I couldn't say.

No, have you any idea where that fellow got his fish from?

R - I haven't a clue.

No, most likely coming by rail, wouldn’t it?

R - 1t’d come .. yes.

Yes, to the station yes. And your supper, you say that very often you had a good, good supper before bed time, what would you have?

R – Chips, fish, peas … we’d … usually it'd be chips fish or sometime me mother would make a meat and potato pie. You see, they'd more time after, say round about three o’clock at the afternoon.

That's it yes. Your mother’d normally help your father with the baking would she?

R – Yes, me mother and father did it.

Yes so .. that's the reason why many a time you didn't get a dinner because she had other things to do.

R- Other things to do in the bakehouse.

(35 Min)

SCG/09 October 2002
5507 words.



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/1 (Side Two)

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JUNE 19TH 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.



Now you've already said that you had a garden outside but you didn't garden it, you didn't cultivate it. So you wouldn't have, did you have an allotment?

R- No..

Did you have any hens, pigs, ducks, goats, owt like that?

R – We’d about ten hens, a cock, sometimes we might have a few pigeons. I once had a goat but it stunk so I had to shift it.

And what did you do with the eggs?

R – Well, me mother used to bake with ‘em and we used to eat them, fry ‘em.

Yes, that’s it.

R- Boil ‘em.

Yes. And you’d, if any of the hens went off a bit you'd…

R - Well you see, it all worked in with what we had left out of the oatmeal. It meant food for the hens, mixing it up, hot mash.

That’s it, so the waste out of the bakehouse went to the hens.

R - Went to the hens and we got the eggs. When they'd finished laying, finished their span of life, that were it, we'd get another ten.

Did you have a pudding every day, at tea time with your tea?

R - Yes. Favourite were, they used to have these here jam rolls, in rags, and steam them.

That's it, suet, Yes,

R- Suet. Or sometimes we’d have what we used to call ‘Eve’s Pudding”. Made out of, nearly a cake mixture with apples in it, at the bottom, with custard.

How much milk did you get each day, can you remember?

R-About two points. We used to get it at the farm, out of the tins, ladle it into the jug.

Lading tin, aye. Did your father ever get any for baking?

R- No. What we used to make the milk cakes were buttermilk.

Did you get that off the same farmer?

R- No we didn’t. We used to go down to Booth Bridge at Thornton. Sometimes I’d walk it. I had a tin on me back, strapped on.

Aye. A back kit.

R- Back kit. I’d go to Booth Bridge and they made butter there.

Were it Wilkinson’s?

R- Wilkinson’s. It’s Wilkinson’s yet. Run by the sons. And I’d go there and collect this buttermilk. And sometimes you get a milkcake and it might have a funny, distorted in the middle but that’d only be because there was a bit of butter left in the buttermilk.

How often did you go for the buttermilk?

R- Once a week.

Once a week. And did your mother ever buy butter, margarine, dripping, any of these?

R- Butter. We never had margarine. Never.

Why not? Do you know?

R- I don’t know. We never had margarine in that house.

Aye. Do you think perhaps your mother had something against it? Or your father?

R - I don’t know. I haven’t a clue but we never….

Never had dripping?

R - No dripping,

No dripping?

R- No.

So your mother baked with butter.

R- Me mother baked with butter.

What fruit did you eat most often?

R – Apples, bananas. Not a lot of oranges, they didn’t seem to do for her, but apples or pears and we used to eat a lot of plums when it were plum time you know?

Yes. Where did you get your fruit from?

R- Greengrocers used to come round with a cart, some of them used to come from Colne, what you call Cheap Jack. There used to be Harry Hart from Colne. And it, Hart, it used to be surprising how much cheaper his fruit were than what you could get it for in….

Hart? Aye ... what were the usual fellow that come round Earby?

R- Well mostly it were the Co-op greengrocery van that used to come round.

When you say a van, was that a motor van?

R- Well no. It were built up like a van but it were pulled by a horse.

Aye, that's it, something like an old milk float.

R - It were like a van that were cut out to have his fruit on display you know.

Yes. What vegetable did you buy most often?

R- Potatoes

Apart from potatoes?

R- Carrots, Cauliflowers, not a lot of cabbage.

(150)
(5 Min)

There’s a list of foods here, and I’ll just tell you what they were. Can you tell me whether you had then every week or once a month or very rarely or never? Bananas?

R- Every week.

Rabbit?

R – No.

Never?

R- Never.

Fried food?

R - Fried food? What’s that?

You know, fried food, stuff fried in the frying pan. You know, fried bacon, chips, owt like that. Anything fried in hot fat.

R - Bacon, yes bacon, chips

Aye .. Fish?

R – Fish.

What sort of fish were it usually?

R- Well we used to got hake, halibut, plaice. We never liked cod or haddock.

Must have been well off. They'd be dearer fish then wouldn’t they?

R - They were dearer fish but they seemed more wholesome you know?

Yes, cheese?

R- No, we didn’t eat a lot cheese, mostly if we got a little bit, it wouldn’t be so much, it’d always be Cheshire.

Aye . How did you eat that? How did it usually get eaten, do you know?

R- Well, we used to eat it with pickles, and…

That’s it, yes. Cow Heel, tripe, trotters, black pudding?

R - Yes we used to have it, and we used to have a bit of tripe but it always had to be seam with no fat on. And then me mother used to get cow heels and she used to make potted meat with cow heel.

Aye. Eggs obviously, you had your own eggs. Tomato?

R- Tomatoes when they were in season. And a fellow that lived higher up Red Lion Street used to have a lot of them greenhouses.

(200)

Can you remember his name?

R - Lodge. Louis Lodge.

Louis Lodge. Grapefruit?

R- No.

Sheep’s head?

R – No.

Did you ever have tinned food?

R – Very seldom Stanley.

If you did have it, what sort was it?

R- Peaches.

Peaches. Were they halves or slices?

R- Halves.

You must have been well off! Can you ever remember having tinned food and it was bad?

R-No.

Aye. Apart from peaches then, your mother wouldn’t like other tinned foods?

R - No, we used to have other food when they wore in season such as strawberries and …

Yes, that's it.

R- A few raspberries and then me mother used to bake a lot of bilberry pies and goose bob pie or rhubarb pies.

Where would you get fruit like that, you know, would you get it? Did you get it from a shop or off the cart or ... bilberrying, do you know, did you go picking or what.

R - Well you got a lot of folk going picking them and then selling them to make a bit of spare money.

Now then …

R- Same as stuff such as watercress. That’s what you’d have a lot of.

Yes, well, somebody that was very hard up, and stuff like that was in season round about. They’d go off and say pick bilberries on the moor and then come back and sell what they picked round the town.

R - Come back, that's it, and sell what they picked, that made them a bit of beer money.

Yes. Was it usually the men that did that?

R- Mostly the men.

Aye .. What, out of work or what?

Out of work.

(250)

For beer money.

R - For beer money.

Yes. Did you drink tea, coffee, cocoa?

R- Never coffee, [we drank]tea. Never cocoa.

Yes .. Never cocoa. What did you have for Christmas dinner?

R – We’d always a turkey.

Always…

R – Always.

Where did that come from?

R – Well, it come off a farmer.

Same one every year or …

R- Yes.

Who were that?

R – Wilkinson.

Booth Bridge?

R - Booth Bridge.

What was your favourite food when you were a lad?

R- When I were a lad? Well me favourite meal would be chips and halibut and some fresh garden peas.

(10 Min)

Was there ever a time when, can you ever remember a time when the family were hard up?

R - Well I didn't seem to notice it, Stanley.

And obviously your father’d be, all the meals your father had'd be at home because he was working at home ... Did your father always have the same food as the rest of the fondly, or did he ... ?

R - He used to have the same, well everybody used to have the same food Stanley.

That's it yes. Who usually did the shopping in your family.

R- Me mother.

How often did she do it.

R - About … happen twice a week, but she used to have a lot… You see, with carts coming round you didn't, you didn’t need to do the same shopping Stanley.

How about meat?

R- Meat. Yes, we used to get that at Edmondson’s which is at the bottom of Riley Street Earby, He used to have a butcher’s shop there.

(300)

And how about the groceries?

R- Well, t’grocery, we used to go to the Co-op for the divi. You might get half a crown in the pound in them days.

So they were members.

R- We were members at the Co-op.

Yes. How much were it, being a member then, can you remember? You had to have so much in didn't you.

R- You'd to have a pound share in t’Co-op in them days.

That's it. Was there a market in Earby? You know, an open market?

R- I can’t remember one Stanley.

No. Was there any difference would you think, in… did you have a local corner shop?

R – Yes, it were a house shop, which was in number 49.

Red Lion Street.

R- Red Lion street.

Who kept that, can you remember?

R - A Mrs Eastwood, Lois Eastwood they called her, and she'd a son and a daughter, and Vic Eastwood, the son, he were keen on the Isle of Man TT.

So what did she sell at that shop.

R- Oh sweets, a little bit of butter, sugar, tea, coffee, washing powder and all such stuff as that.

Yes. Donkey stones?

R – No, we’d to go [for them] to the shop which were… It’d happen be about 37 Red Lion Street, which were a bigger shop you know, and they’d sell bacon, and you'd get donkey stones there.

Who kept that shop?

(350)

R – Slater’s, they called them Slater’s and they did a bit of their own baking and all, such as bread and tea cakes, th'old, what you could call the old type fancy bun you know with t' middle cut out and a bit of this here butter cream in.

That’s it. So that’d be oven baking, yes?

R - That were oven baking, yes.

And would you say there was any difference in the prices that they charged in the little corner shops down on Red Lion Street and say the Co-op?

R – No.

And did the shops on Red Lion Street, would they give credit?

R- Slater’s wouldn’t, but Mrs Eastwood would.

Yes. So if somebody were hard up they could …

R - They could strap.

Yes. They'd have a …

R - They'd have a book, and could cope. They called it strapping in them days. So she’d have it booked down in a small book. Happen for Mrs Taylor, owed so much. Some were never straight, as soon as they got paid from the mills at Wednesday they’d go and straighten that off and then she .. like, suppose it were Mrs Taylor, she'd be at it again. So she is actually never straight, she is still owing money, she's always a week behind.

And a tied customer, yes. Can you remember ... was there a pawn shop in Earby?

R- Well, you could call it a pawn shop, there were Levi’s at Earby, a Jew. Isaac Levi.

Yes. And would he take pledges, you know, take stuff in and …

R- He’d take stuff off you, yes.

Give money on ‘em and then you could go and get it redeemed?

R- And give money and then you could go and get it redeemed if you wanted.

Yes. And whereabouts was that?

R-That were on Victoria Road.

(400)

Yes. Whereabouts, any idea?

R- Oh, what do you call it? There’s a bank at top now isn’t there?

Yes.

R - And then two houses, and there’d be the shop which is Banham’s cycles which used to be Simmonds, electrician after Levi finished with it. Well he used to be in theer did Isaac Levi, and he used to sell furniture and linoleum and …

Can you remember anybody .. anywhere round about, lending money for interest?

R – It’d be Isaac Levi.

He'd lend money as well?

R- Yes.

Aye. Any idea what sort of interest he’d charge?

R – No. I haven’t a clue Stanley.

No. Any idea what he charged on the pledges?

R - Not a thing.

No. So, obviously your family'd never use the pawn shop?

R- No. They used to go there and buy furniture because he kept a good quality, he used to keep some good stuffed furniture.

(20 Min)

Yes. Was that new or stuff that he’d taken in pledges?

R – New.

So he’d be the furniture shop as well as being the pawn shop. Did you know if any of the neighbours used the pawn shop?

R- Alice Green.

Her with the newspaper?

R- With the newspapers.

And the money lender, do you know anyone that used the money lender?

R- I don’t Stanley.

How about Provident cheques, can you remember?

R- A man used to come round with these Provident cheques. And you could go to Isaac Levi who were on Provident. And then there were… what were the other shops in Earby? You could take them cheques to them shops and get what you wanted you know, and then they'd have collectors coming.

That's it. What did they use to call the collector in Earby, can you remember? Have you any idea what they used to call him?

R - No I don’t know Stanley I don’t know.

And had you a name, did they have a name for him?

R- They used to say "The Man from the Provident’s coming."

That’s it. ‘The Man from the Provident’ No, the reason why I ask, some people call ‘em ‘The Tally Man’ you know.

R- Yes. We used to say ‘Man from Provident’.

Did your mother ever use Provident cheques?

R- No.

Have you any idea how much it’d cost your mother, you know, how much housekeeping money your mother would have for a week?

(450)

R- I never knew what me father gave me mother for housekeeping.

Is there anything that you used to eat when you were young, which you can't get now?

R- Well, I can't get such as fish that I prefer, which is too dear now, such as halibut, white hake. So what we have to do now is to go on to a bit of plaice, we change about, plaice and haddock, which really and truly, haddock I detest.

So you think really that fish is dearer now, compared to what it was then, even taking into account the difference in the value of money?

R - Yes

So in them days you'd say that fish was a fairly cheap food.

R- Yes well we always had .. we weren't a very well off family Stanley, we were a careful family in the main.

That's it, yes. You'll not remember anything about the first world war, obviously because you weren’t old enough.

R - Weren’t old enough you see no. But why me father came out of the mill and that was because he was gassed during the first world war.

And he was away at the war and he was gassed?

R- Yes.

That’d be chlorine gas though, he’d be bad with his chest.

R- Terrible chest, that eventually was what helped him to die at an early age.

Yes. How old was he when he died?

R- Fifty-five.

Fifty-five, that wasn’t old was it? Did you, did he, when he was gassed, was he invalided out or did he finish the war?

R - He finished the war.

He finished the war even though he’d been gassed. Yes, my father was the same. So he’d be prone to bronchitis.

R – Aye, it were a terrible cough. He finished, he died with what they called in them days ‘Silent Pneumonia’.

Yes. And do you know if he over drew a disability pension through being gassed?

R - Not a penny.

Never drew anything. And when he did eventually die, it was never put down as the results of war injury? Your mother never got anything then?

(500)

R - No, not a cent.

No, did your mother make any of the family’s clothes?

R – Well, it might be a laugh. She used to make me all me vests, wool knit vests.

She used to knit them?

R- She used to knit them yes. Apart from that she'd make me an odd shirt sometimes you know.

Was there any particular reason for her knitting wool vests for you, you know, did she regard you an a delicate child?

R- Well I wouldn't say I were a delicate child, but she made certain that I were warm.

Aye, that's it. Did she have a sewing machine?

R- Yes.

Do you know what sort it was?

R - A Singer.

A Singer treadle ?

R- Treadle, two feet on and going like the clappers

And did she mend your clothes?

R- Yes.

Was she good at mending clothes?

R- Quite good with patching.

Yes. How about darning?

R - She didn’t like darning socks but she did it.

She did it, mushroom?

R- Yes. And a biggish needle.

Biggish needle, yes. Did you have any passed on clothes?

R- Never.

No. And so your clothes would be bought. Where were they bought?

R- At t'Co-op or at Maynard’s at Earby.

Yes, Maynard’s, it isn't long since he went out of business is it, the old fellow? I can remember going to Maynard’s, yes. ' What happened to your old clothes?

R-I think me old uns would be old uns Stanley ‘cause I were a bit of a rough un.

So what, rag and bone chap?

R - Rag and bone chap. She’d give stuff to t’rag and bone chap to get donkey stones for the steps.



A rag and bone man in Salford in 1977 but exactly the same as Jim remembers.

What did you wear for school?

R – Grey, short flannel trousers. I wear , what do you mean, school? At t’beginning or when I got .. going up into twelve, thirteen?

When you, when you first went to school

(550)

R - When I first went to school? Oh, like a tight little, tight short pants, and a jersey and some clogs, small clogs, and I can remember going, which I shamed with, a blooming wool scarf wrapped round me neck and fastened at the back with a safety pin.

Were your clogs ironed?

R - Ironed. I used to get them done at t’Co-op, Earby Co-op, and a fellow, called Lord used to be t’clogger there.

What was his Christian name? Can you remember?

R - Can't remember. But one of his sons lives in Barlick now, Frank Lord, he used to play cricket with Barlick. His father did all the clogging at Earby.

What sort of irons were they, were they ordinary irons, or Colne irons or what?

R - Ordinary irons, ordinary irons.

Could you get Colne irons in Earby?

R - What's Colne irons?

You know, haven't you ever seen Colne irons, they’re thick irons.

R - These were thick uns. So they lasted longer.

Yes. Were the irons, the clog irons that you used to get, had they a groove down them?

R- In't middle, in't middle of the iron, he used to groove them all round and then he used to knock nails in. Nearly like a blooming [horse] shoe they were.

Yea. No, Colne irons are a lot thicker. And this clogger, Lord, at the Co-op, did he ever make clogs?

R- Yes, out of a wood block, from a wood block.

He made him own soles?

R- He made his own soles, and then he shaped his own leather.

Yes. Did you actually see him cutting his own soles? Or did he buy the soles in, already cut? Do you understand what I mean?

R- I’ve seen him, I’ve seen him make a pair of clogs out of a block.

Yes, that’s it. Did he use a knife on a bench that were hinged on?

R- It were hinged on in like a loop at that side and it were a big thing and he’d be ...

That's right, that's right, yes.

R- It reminded you of a scythe at one end.

Yes that’s right Jim. Now that was when you first went to school. Now when you got a bit older at school, what did you wear then?

R- Grey flannel trousers and a shirt, but I still wore clogs.

Yes, still wore clogs.

R- Because we couldn't afford a ball to play in the school yard, so we used to kick a stone about for footballing.

Aye, did you have any shoes?

R-I had shoes yes, and I used to got them at t’Co-op, but me best pair were made at Newton Pickle’s at Kelbrook. He used to be the shoemaker there.

Yes. When you say Newton do you mean Johnny Pickles’s brother?
(600)

R - No. I don't know whether they are related to Newton Pickles.

Yes they are.

R - Are they?

Yes, that’s why Johnny in buried at Kelbrook.

R - Kelbrook is it?

Pickles were cloggers at Kelbrook and his brother [Johnny’s]was the clogger.



George Pickles, cobbler at Kelbrook.

R – Well, this were Newton, and sometimes he’d be off on a drinking spree for a month.

Yes, that's what.

R- Take his hook. There used to be about six of them. And every twelve months they used to have this month off, and away they'd go and nobody knew where they were. So somebody's shoes would be happen waiting to have a pair of soles and heels and they’d be without shoes for a month.

And what kind of hat did you wear, did you wear a hat?

R - A cap, I used to wear a cap.

Aye, with a badge on.

A - With a badge at t’front

Aye. What were that?

R - Alder Hill School

Alder Hill School. What did your father wear for work?

R - For work?

Yes.

(30 min)

R - Well he used to wear an old pair of pants, an old Union shirt, and to hold his pants up he’d have a big thick leather belt, and that's all he wore in the bakehouse.

Did he ever hit you with the belt?

R – No.

No. What did your mother wear for housework?

R – Well, she’d wear a dress but she always had what they called a pinny on in them days.

If she went out, would she ever go out with the pinny on?

R - No, she’d always take her pinny off.

Always?

R - Always.

And did your mother over wear a shawl?

R – Never, I've never seen her in a shawl. I remember me grandmother having a shawl.

Yes. So did your mother ever wear a hat?

R – Yes.

Did the always wear a hat when she went out or would she go out bare-headed any time?

R- No.

Always wore a hat.

R - Always wore a hat.

What kind of hat was it?

R- Well, sommat with a wide brim. Well, they'd be like a velour hat. You know, with a bit, up at the front and a bit of a feather in it.

And your father’d never mend the family’s shoes?

R - No.

No. How many outfits did you have at one time?

R - I had a suit which were blue, pin striped, short pants, and then I just had me flannels and doings for school. I used to have a blue shirt to go with me suit, but I only wore that on special occasions.

(650)

Tie?

R - Pretty seldom I had a tie on, unless relations were coming at Sunday and I had to get dressed up.

The blue shirt you had; were it collar attached or loose collar?

R - Collar attached.

Aye. Did you ever have a shirt when you were a lad, with a loose collar?

R- Yes, with a button so far and a back stud and a front stud.

That's it, yes.

R - And me father used to wear these here collars that went to the laundry. Hard, stiff uns. And same as he didn't feel right up to it, he’d just keep his union shirt on that he’d had on in the bakehouse and put one of these white collars on with the back stud and the front stud.

That's it. They weren't wing collars were they?

R- They were collars, they were rounded at the edges.

That’s it, yes. How often did you have clean clothes?

R - Every week, which were after bath night, Friday night.

That’s it. Have you over heard of anybody ever being sewn in for the winter? Have you ever come across that?

R - What's that, sewn in?

Yes. Their clothes sewn up before the winter so that they didn't catch cold.

R – No.

They never used to change ’em, no. Did your mother belong to any sort of a savings club for clothing and boots and shoes. Anything like that?

R - No.

No. Can you remember any change, noticing any change in the way people dressed as you were growing up? Was there … whilst you were growing up you know, in between first going to school and starting work, did any changes in dress strike you at all?

R - Long pants.

In what way?

R- Well, when you got going on to fifteen you felt a bit of a fool with your short pants, so your mother started saving up to buy you a pair of long pants to go, you know…

That’s it. And how about changes in dress in other people? You know, say in the women, or anything like that, did you notice any changes happening you know, such as skirts getting shorter?

R- Well ... but I noticed that when I were going about seventeen with the lasses that they were getting their skirts shorter and so forth.

When you were very young, the first thing that you can… when you can first start remembering these things, would it he fairly common to see people in long skirts. You know, the older women .. In long skirts.

R- Older women? Like me grandmother always had a long skirt.

Yes. And by a long skirt, you mean a long skirt down to the floor?

R- Almost down to the floor aye, and then she'd have a pinny on top of that.

Yes. And would it be fairly common to see women of that age on the streets in Earby then in long skirts?

R- Not a lot of them Stanley.

Not a lot. How about shawls?

R – No, you'd only get them that were, I should say going up seventy, seventy-five to eighty, wearing the shawl. And they did, even if they sat outside their house. They'd have their shawl over their shoulders or over their head. And instead of bringing a chair out they’d bring a buffet out.

When you were having your meals at home, did everybody sit down together?

R- Sat down together. Always.

And you'd all eat the same [food].

R- And we’d all eat the same.

Yes. And did you always have a tablecloth?

R – Yes, always. No such thing as linoleum on it, you had a tablecloth.

Yes. It was always a proper tablecloth.

R - And they'd bits of crocheting on which me mother’d done.

Did your parents, you know, were they at all strict about you at the table. The way you ate your meals?

(35 Min)

R - Oh I hadn't to talk and I never drunk until I finished eating me food.

That's the sort of thing, yes.

R - I had never to talk at the table.

And how about eating with your mouth shut? You know, how about eating with your mouth open, did nobody ever pull you up for anything like that?

R- No.

Would you say that your parents were strict with you, say about times for coming in or.. you know? If you were swearing or being cheeky or owt like that?

R - One thing, cheek, I never had to give any cheek.

What happened it you did?

R - Well me father wouldn't hit me but me mother would.

Aye. What with?

R - Feather brush mainly.

Clip round the ear happen if it were bad?

R – Well, she’d give me sharp [tap], yes.

Aye. Did the family ...

R - Like same with that, when you're talking about… I knew how far to go with the look on me father’s face. I knew how far I’d gone, and that were time to finish..

That's it. Can you remember anybody ever saying grace before meals at home?

(750)

R - No. And nobody went [to church] I never went to Sunday School, and I can never remember me mother going in .. Oh, I’m saying that, well me mother sometimes used to go to the Spiritualists. She liked to go to that.

Spiritualists?

R – Spiritualists. And she used to come home and say “Well, so and so’s told me this.” “Don't bother me with that" me father used to say.

If you had a birthday was it different from any other day?

R- No, I had no cake, birthday cake, or owt like that, but…

How about presents?

R- But presents, I'd always presents, even from relations.

Aye, visitors?

R- No.

And how about Christmas, how did you spend Christmas?

R - Well Christmas were always...Christmas dinner was always spent at home, when me half sister came and the other relations. And then the following day we can go to either me sister’s or some of the other relation. Me sister’d be at Cottontree and then me aunts were at Nelson, two of them.

So your sister at Cottontree would be living with one of your aunties.

R - No me sister at Cottontree'd be married then.

What year were she married?

R - She were married when she were seventeen.


SCG/14 October 2002
5217 words.



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/2

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JULY 17TH 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


Now, it is still 1924

R - Twenty four.

You are eight years old, and you are still living in Red Lion Street. Now then, what school did you go to?

R - I started off at three year old and I went to Riley street day school.

Three year old? Was that fairly common then?

R - Yes.

It's very early for going to school isn't it? Were there any particular reason for that do you think?

R - I don’t know Stanley. Unless it were to help a lot of women that put children out [To childminders] you see? It did save them money and that you’d expect didn't it? Because there were so many who used to be out at six o’clock taking their children out to be looked after. Well, when you got to three and there was such as the Riley Street School to go to, you went.

What age were you there ‘til?

R - Five, and then I went to Alder Hill School.

(50)

And you'd be at Alder Hill until…

R - I were fourteen.

What was the school like?

R – Oh the school were .. how can I put it? School were school, no cheek, you did as you got told. I mean to say, the same thing happens today, if you didn't want to learn you’d not learn. You got them who didn't want to learn but there were no fooling about with it, It just didn’t sink in.

How about corporal punishment?

R- Well, you got punished with a cane, a small cane with a handle on the end. And when we got to Alder Hill School we used to be taken into the woodwork room, put over the bench and walloped. I can only remember being walloped twice, and that were more for breaking windows, school windows, which I had been told about before. With either footballs or a hard ball in the schoolyard, which you knew you hadn’t to use. You could use a soft ball, but you got a bit, you know, [Careless and] took a cork ball.

Aye a corky. [A corky was the slang name for a cheap cricket ball made out of composition.] How old were your parents when they went to school? Any idea?

(100)

R- I haven’t a clue Stanley.

No. Do you know anything about their education? Have you ever heard anything?

R- I think me father were taught at what they call Christ Church School which is still going, it's on Laneshawe Bridge Road Colne.

What do you think you gained from school? You know, what benefits did you get?

R- Well, it kept you fairly well mannered did school in the old days Stanley. I know at one time we used to, before you met a teacher, we’d touch us little cap. And what can I say about teachers…well, they were there to teach and they did that job. But once you had gone out of line they soon put you back in line by being walloped, which did you no harm, and I thought it did you good.

Well, you've got a child at school now, what do you think, what would you say yourself about the difference between school then and school now? What’s the main difference?

(150)

R- Well… same as, I can’t talk about school now Stanley because I could have gone to Grammar School but I'd no interest in the Grammar School. My main interest was football and cricket. Well me daughter now, she’s not interested in school subjects. Well, I don’t think she is cheeky at school, I’ve had no reports about it but she just doesn’t give her mind to things. It’s there, the teachers admit it’s there but they can’t get it out of her.

What is she interested in then?

R - She in interested in such as hairdressing and .. she is at that stage Stanley, can’t [make up her mind] but her main interest is hairdressing. But like a lot of them now, they hear of them that’s getting these jobs such as on sewing or other duties which is making them maybe £35 a week. And she can’t see why she should continue and go to Nelson and Colne College. And the position we’re in, we would get a grant of happen £42 a year for her. Now then, she thinks she would be better off going into industry and earning such money as £35 on a sewing machine. And all her school reports for the time, as you know, wife as she is, she has had a lot of time off school but she’s not numb. If she’d give her mind to it she could do it.

(200)

[This was a delicate subject because Jim’s wife had terminal cancer and his daughter had spent a lot of time off school doing the housework and looking after her mother.]

Would you say she is brighter than you were?

R- Oh, she is a lot brighter than me Stanley.

And yet you passed for the Grammar..

R- I’ve passed for the Grammar School.

What age were that at?

R- Thirteen.

You were thirteen then? And how come you didn't go?

R- I weren't interested Stanley. My main interest was sport, it’s all I lived for were cricket and football.

Aye, and your parents never pushed you to do it?

R - Me parents never pushed me.

How about work, you know, while you were at school. Did work ever cross your mind, what you were going to do when you left school? You know, did you have any thoughts about it while you were actually at school?

R-Well, funny enough, the only thing that I wanted to do when I came out of school were go into t‘mill.

Was there anything else?

R – No, I'd gone into mills since I were twelve year old.

When you say you’d gone into mills, what do you mean?

R – I’ve gone in with somebody that's been working in a mill and mucked about with 'em you know? What they were doing and ... I don't know, I had a fascination for the mill.

Aye. So really, you had choice between the bakehouse and the mill when you left school.

R- Well, bakehouse, me dad knew for a start that didn't interest me one bit, Stanley. So he never expected me to go in the bakehouse with him.

But I mean, the thing that I mean is that it was there for you to have …

R - It was there for me if I wanted it.

(250)

How many other people do you think had a choice?

R- Not many. Not many Stanley. Because the main thing round this area were mills, which is textiles, textile industry. That were the main employment for people in them days.

So you’d leave school at what, 1930?

R- I left in 1930.

And … we’ll come on to that in a minute. While you were at school, can you ever remember the doctor coming round, you know, to examine you?

R - I can’t remember a doctor Stanley, but I remember the nurse coming. And going through your hair.

Aye. Nit nurse? [Nits are the common term for head lice which were very common].

R- Nit nurse?

That's it.

R- But as for doctors, no.

Dentist?

R- No.

Inspector?

R – No I can't remember it. Only other man I can remember coming to our school when I were there was a physical training Instructor from Skipton Grammar School, a fellow called Taylor.

Aye, and why did he come?

R- To see how we were going on with physical education. The fellow there that we had, he were actually a rugby player, a fellow called Hindley, he used to play rugby with Skipton. And .. as far as physical education went, he hadn’t much idea if you know what I mean. We just had a vaulting horse and a spring board and so it were a matter of getting on the board and going over it. This Taylor kind of knocked us into shape a bit by doing more things on this vaulting horse and more exercises. Admittedly, we didn't quite like the idea. We used to play around more often than not you know.

(10 Min)
(300)

You'd rather he laiking cricket than jumping over the vaulting horse. Aye, I can imagine it. And did you do any more study after you left school? You know, night school, anything like that?

R- I didn't do a bit Stanley.

No, nothing at all.

R- Nothing at all.

So you left school.

R - When I left school what I did …even getting into mills in them days, it were hard Stanley. You couldn’t just walk into a mill and get a job. There were such things as tenting, where you'd go in at twelve or thirteen and, and go with weavers and you'd be a tenter, you’d happen get half a crown, such as that; and then it were difficult to get in, they were only on four and five loom in them days.

If you went in as a tenter, that’d be with somebody who were probably on five looms or a good weaver wouldn’t it?

R- Five looms, a good weaver.

Who paid the tenter?

R- He paid them, he paid it.

The weaver?

R- The weaver in the old days. And by…But you had to work for your money!

Now then, over a period he’d been with you, he’ll get paid by the firm for tenting if you were showing any signs…

R- But you’d got to he showing signs before they'd start to pay.

So it would nearly have to be a relation or a friend of the family that you were tenting for?

(350)

R – Yes, that’s right, somebody that worked there, somebody you knew, a relation or a good friend of the family.

How about going in before you were actually old enough to go to work, and learning a bit so that you were a better man when you went. I wonder if some of that went on?

R- Well, this is what I did when I went from school at four o’clock. I used to go into a mill and do a bit of bundling, cloth-look bundling and tying ‘em up. I hadn’t the strength you know? But they used to have a presser in them days and it used to come down and then press them tighter and it were far easier to tie the strings up with that. And then I'd go up into the twisting room, preparation room and they’d have a regular reacher-in who put the ends on a hook which were pulled through the healds. Well, if he wanted a break it was just my job to have a sit down and I were only too keen to have a bit of a do at this. And yet, when I left school, I couldn’t get into the mill and I had to go in the bakehouse with me dad.

So you left school when you were fourteen?

R - But when I finished in the bakehouse, which was around two or three o’clock, what did I do then? I used to go into the mill after that period to spend a bit more time in the mill.

Anywhere in particular?

R - I used to go to Sough Bridge, which were more of a man-made fibre place than cotton.

In them days? Oh, what would that be, Viscose?

R- Viscose.,

Aye.

R - Made of Celanese and such as that.

Aye that’s it. Jimmy Nelson’s were on it weren’t they? What do you call that stuff? Made out of wood shavings?

R- Lustrafil. I’d do it [The bakehouse] but I knew it weren’t going to do me any good, I weren't interested at t’bottom. I’d set me mind on sport, or going into the mill.

(400)

So you left school at fourteen, and half timing would be finishing then would it?

R- Half timing? There weren’t much of it then Stanley in 1930. We used to get in and you'd start off as a proper learner you know.

Yes. Would there be any half-timing going on at all that you know of for sure then?

R- I can't say there were in 1930 Stanley.

Yes. So when you left school you couldn’t get a job in the mill?

R- No.

So, of course, 1930, it’d be a bit dodgy wouldn’t it? Just coming into the bad times? Yes.

R - Yes, bad times.

Yes. Well you were into it weren’t you, 1928 it started, yes.

R - Twenty-eight … started.

So you tried for a job though? Tried all over?

R – Yes. Tried all over.

So you worked in the bakehouse with your dad? And then, in your spare time, you were into the mill whenever you could be?

(15 Min)

R- I were into the mill. Like same as with that, I had a pal, one or two pals, in the mill. So I went in to them. And then I'd get knowing somebody else in t’mill and I’d go and do a bit for him and …

Well, knowing you, Summer’s afternoon and three o’clock …

R – No, wait, but you see on that, what I did, I went on to the cricket field in summer and go on two afternoons, from half past two ‘til roughly round about half past four.

Which cricket field were that?

R- That’d be at Earby.

Were that nets?

R – Nets. And there’d always be t’pro’ about. And that were a good thing for me, because it got me two afternoons in on the cricket field with the pro’ bowling.

Aye. What were the attitude to you going down? Were they like glad to see anybody that’d come down? That were showing a bit of promise, you know, showing signs?

R - Cricket players? Oh yes, they were dead keen at Earby on cricket Stanley. If you talked to anybody about cricket they always said “Oh, Earby? Oh, cricket mad.” I mean to say, even going back to The 1930’s.



Jim as a young cricketer in Earby.

(450)

Yes.

R – And, such as that, it were…what? Same as if one player’d leave Earby and come Barlick to play. Gosh! It were like defeat. If Barlick’d play, they were in a different league bear in mind. Now if Barlick went and played Earby and this lad were with them. In a friendly even, oh it were hell on earth for the lad, he’d get booed as soon as he were coming out to bat. Oh aye. But you see, what went on a lot in them days with Earby, there were those lads that went to t'Grammar School. Now they couldn’t get out of the idea, they always thought that the Grammar School lads were better than what we could call the local lads were. You see you could, you’d start off in that team. Now as soon as it come, their Summer period, their break, irrespective if you’d done fairly well, you’d be out of that team and these Grammar School lads would take precedence over you. And their performances could go on for weeks doing nothing but they’d still be in. Now this is what got everybody, this bit of feeling you see

Aye, gentlemen versus players Jim. Aye, that’s what it is.

R – Yes. So me father had different ideas and he said “As soon as you can move, you move!”.

Aye, ‘cause you actually started off at Thornton didn’t you? Yes, that was because they didn't think you were big enough at Earby.

R - At Earby, that’s correct.

Aye, still…

R - but you see, on these does Stanley, as I'm saying, when you were at school. There were even such as a woodwork room at Alder Hill ..quite a good school were Alder Hill. And there were a cookery room for the girls, even in them days, a beautiful cookhouse and that for them and the woodwork room were beautiful. Except when you went in to be laid over the bench and walloped! I can just remember one teacher, Thornton, Bobby Thornton, now I would say he was the worst teacher there were at that school.

In what way?

R - He didn’t give two hoots whether the lads were learning or whether they weren’t and he always used to suffer anyone who moved out of his class into the next class. You were way behind if you see what I mean. He were all right, he were sending a lad down to the paper shop and getting his Sporting Pink for the horse racing. And he would sit with his Sporting Pink on his desk, sorting winners out. Well, everyone took a bit of advantage of this and started throwing inkpot blobs up and down. But you knew, after you’d moved out of his class, that were it, work started then.

What standard were he teaching?

R- What would it be? Class III in them days.

No. Like that were a fairly important standard weren’t it. Aye.

R - You see, he looked after the garden, we used to have a bit of garden up at Alder Hill and all. And you used to have one afternoon gardening. I never knew what they did wit' vegetables that they grew, wherever they went but .. they used to grow a lot of vegetables and it were quite interesting with him. Now give him his due he were a good gardener, but as far as the three R’s were concerned, he were bloody hopeless.

How about school meals, were there any school meals then?

R - No school meals. No free meals, no nothing Stanley.

No school meals.

R - And one thing about school Stanley, you didn’t walk out of school as though you were walking out of a cinema or owt like that, wandering about, you had to march out. And your teacher’d be stood there and if you didn’t march you used to get one wallop and it’d be either on your bottom or your leg. But it were fairly orderly

(550)

And there wore no such thing as what they talk about now, stealing that goes on at schools and that. It’s one thing you’d never… everyone used to have a peg for their cap and coat and they were still there, nothing missing.

Really then, you’d say as a whole that standards of behaviour have declined at schools then, since you were there.

R – Oh Stanley. It's when I go up to that school, it’s shocking.
[Jim had a daughter at what was then New Road School but is now called West Craven High School in 2002. This is the school he is referring to.]

Well I must tell you that that's the impression that I get but I often wonder how prejudiced we are.

R – Oh it’s pathetic, it is, you'd never see the lads throwing pennies, like we call those two pence pieces don’t we. A gang maybe thirty, throwing these up against the school wall and the winner takes the lot. That's unheard of. But yet they dare do it up there, I’ve seen ‘em doing it at dinner time. And the way they wander in and wander out, no such thing, you marched in orderly and you came out orderly.

Aye. And you didn’t come out till four o'clock either. It's a thing that strikes me many a time, Christ Almighty they’re coming out of theer at three o’clock.

R - And if you even want to go to the toilet your hand had to go up “Please Sir” or “Please Miss”.

Well, don’t they know?

R- I don’t know as far as I can see they just say “Reight, I'm going to the toilet", and that’s it.

Aye, I’ll have to ask our Margaret about that. I don't know about that.
[My eldest daughter went to the same school.]

R - No, it's so different Stanley, This is why, I don’t know whether we are the old fashioned type or what, but to me it seems more orderly and better mannered in those days weren’t they? Don’t you think so?

Well, as I say, that’s the impression I get.

(600)

R - I’ll give you another instance Stanley. I’m not saying anything about people with beards Stanley or anything like that, but in the old days you’d never see a teacher going to school without a collar and tie. You’d never see anybody wearing a rolled up shirt [sleeves] or a damn pullover that looks as though it had been slept in. Everybody would be, the teachers would be tidy and smart.

In other words they were setting an example.

R- They’d set an example. Same as with that, you even went to school in clogs but them clogs’d be polished.

Did you go to school in clogs?

R - I went to school in clogs, I could kick stones about better in the school yard with clogs than I could with shoes.

Aye, I think we are beginning to sound like a couple of reactionaries.

R-No. I believe in school Stanley, but the way they carry on, I think it’s disgusting. I can honestly say that when you went to the toilets at school they were clean. And they were kept clean. But now… And as for a broken window Stanley, you’d pay for that, and you had to pay. But not now.

(25 Min)

Oh they'll set fire to a shop now, never mind break a window. And in those days ...and this is something that has a bit of bearing on it really, In those days there were things like parent teacher associations were there?

R- No.

To your knowledge did your parents ever go to the school to discuss with the teachers how you were going on or anything like that?

R- Never Stanley. I can only remember me father, well, me father would never have gone to school even if they'd half killed me. But me mother went once.

Aye. What did she go for?

R – Well, once I were walking out, and as far as I know I were going out well behaved, and a fellow called Seed which were the Headmaster, he used to carry a walking stick, and it were one of these curly uns, and he just caught me such a crack behind me leg it blistered my leg from above my knee right down to me muscle and me calf. And me pants, me short pants kept rubbing on this and then me mother says "What are you scratching?” you see.

(650)

“Oh - I said – I’ve just been walloped” “Ah well, they'll not wallop thee no more!” and up she went. But I've had to take bills home for me mother for a window being put in, happen three and sixpence dependant on't size of the window like. But I wonder what it'd happen new if one of them got a bill for breaking a window, I wonder what reaction there'd be.

There is one thing sure and certain, there’d be a reaction, wouldn't there? There would.

R- Yes. They'd have all the parents out on strike or sommat.

And when It got on for time for your leaving school … Oh now, wait a minute. You took the examination for Skipton Grammar,

didn’t you? Where did you take that examination for Ermysted’s?
[Ermysted’s was the real name for what was always known as Skipton Grammar School.]

R- Up at school, Alder Hill School.

You took it at Alder Hill? Aye. You didn't have to go to Ermysted’s to take it?

R- No, we went up to Alder Hill. And you were all sat in't hall you know?

Yes, did all the lads take that?

R- You know, everybody took it. When they come to this age.

Yes. Could lasses go to High School and all?

R- Yes, girls could go to high school.

Aye, that were at thirteen year old?

R- Thirteen.

How many’d pass from Earby? Any idea?

R - I haven't any idea Stanley.

Would any pass?

R - Oh aye. I knocked about with a lad, Duxbury, he passed, and you can take it, such as that Charlie Shutt, him that's managing director at Pickles', he passed, and he’s from Earby,

And if they went on to Ermysted’s what age would they he at school till there?

R - Sixteen, going on seventeen. It just depends what subject they were on with you know? Then they’d go from there to either College or University.

And when it got on for time for your leaving school, when you were coming on for fourteen, was there anything like the Careers Advice that there is now?

R – No, there were nowt like that Stanley.

Because there were no choice really. No.

R - There were no choice. You’d either the mill, road sweeping or farming. There were no such thing as Rolls Royce, Armoride, no such like that.

(700)

Apart from the blacksmith shop there’d be nothing else.

R – There’d be nowt, there'd be nothing else Stanley, that's all there were all round this area. Because when t’trade got bad in't 1930’s there were a lot went out of this area and went down to Corby on engineering.

Yes, down to the Midlands.

R - And some moved out, down into Derby or Sponden where Celanese were, from here.

Yes. How about going abroad, did anybody go abroad ... ?

R – Well, some emigrated and went to New Zealand, some to Australia.

Things'd be that bad round here.

R - Things were bad, shocking Stanley.

So you left school and you looked for a job in the mill but you couldn't get one so you were working with your dad in t’bakehouse, doing a bit in the mills in the afternoons and you were laiking cricket.

R - If I weren't going laiking cricket I’d be in the mills with me mates.

So .. how long did that go on far?

R- That went on .. till I were coming up to sixteen.

So that’d he about 1932.

R - Nineteen thirty two. Now then, I were on t’move then, from Earby to Colne you see? Cricket.

What, do you mean you were, oh yes.

R - That altered my life altogether.

Now, when yon say you were on the move from Earby to Colne what do you mean?

(30 Min)

R – Well, me father was still living then. Now then, I did just a season at Earby and Colne come for me in November 1931 to play for them in 1932. So I went to Colne to play cricket. Now also there I were still helping me father but he gave me more time and I could finish at two o’clock so that’d give me time to get to Colne.

Catch t’train?

R-I caught the bus or sometimes I'd go on me pushbike. And I could get practising them three days a week every afternoon with a fellow called Archie Slater that were pro at Colne. And he used to teach a girl also at the same time which made a vast difference to me with me bowling, a girl, who was Dr Snowball’s daughter.

(750)

I don’t know whether she didn't finish up playing for England at cricket and she used to go. So there were three of us and we were taught wi’ Archie Slater and he were an old Derbyshire County player.

You say Dr Snowball?

R - Dr Snowball, his daughter.

That’s a funny name isn’t it? Where did he come from?

R- Yes. I think it were Burnley Stanley.

That’d be unusual in them days, a lass playing cricket.

R- Yes, there was a lass playing cricket. She was quite a good cricketer. I had three days then, three afternoons really good practice.

How about tackle there? Who provided the tackle? You know, bats…

R- Where, at Colne? Well, Colne provided me with two bats a season. As soon as you got down there you’d go to the locker and pick yourself two bats out, and they were yours for the season.

What sort were they?

R- George Gunn’s and also Lambert’s.

That’s Lambert’s at Nelson, out on the Boundary there.

R- Yes.

Which were the best?

R- Well, I used to have a Lambert, short handle.

How about whites and what not?

R- Oh! Me mothers pride and joy! Whites, flannels. When you went to play for Colne you thought you were getting somewhere. You used to get youngsters in the street in them days asking for your autograph! [Laughs] If you were playing against Constantine you were getting up amongst it you know. [Leary Constantine, a famous West Indian cricketer, later knighted.]

Who were he playing for then?

R- Nelson. And then we got to a pitch you see where I went down to Old Trafford [Lancashire County Ground.] for a trial.

What year were that?

R- 1934.

So that were before you started work [in the mill]

R- Yes. Now then, I could have gone on the ground staff at Lancashire but with being so far out Stanley, I were what you could call snookered. My parents, they couldn’t afford to board me in Manchester. They’d have been money out of pocket, pounds and pounds, which we couldn’t afford. Because when you went down there you had to have all clean whites daily so that meant extra laundry bills on top of having to be boarded out.

Aye, having to have clean sets of whites every day.

R – Yes, because you, what you did when you went down there, you got to play with a team called, what they call Manchester, which is more or loss colts, and then you'd have to go out sometimes at morning or .. mainly afternoon and bowl at so and so's sons and such as this you see, which were all practice for you. So … everything were weighed up and .. me father just couldn't afford it, you know?

But you were accepted?

R- I were accepted, I could have getten on't ground staff. But …

And how did you rate yourself then?

R - I were pretty good you know, for the age I were anyway. And then after that, me father died, the following year.

What year were that?

R - Nineteen thirty five. That changed me life altogether. And that meant that I had to find a job by hook or by crook.

(35 Min)

It were either run the bakehouse or else find a job?

R - Find a job, and I couldn't run the bakehouse. I could have done, but I didn’t want to do Stanley 'cause I didn’t like it. So we kept it on for coming up to the Summer months and then I had to go and see the president at Colne, and tell him I either wanted a job or I'd have to move, you know? Oh, and so he said he’d find me a job.

Who were the president then?

R- A fellow called Pickles.

He’d be a manufacturer, would he?

R - Yes. He were t’managing director at Standroyd Mill at Cottontree then. Which was eventually Courtaulds. But funny enough he didn't find me a job at his own place, he sent me to Lamberts Tape Sizers at Nelson. When I got there I didn't even take me coat off, they wouldn't allow that, Union you see? Because people were signing on, so they couldn't just take me on like that, not at Nelson because Nelson were red hot in them days with the union. So I had to come back and tell him. So, in the meantime, a fellow called Harry Kay, he used to have a shop down Rainhall Road, heard I were after a job, so I got introduced to Mr Wilfred Nutter, I had to go and see him at Mill and that’s why I finished up at Bancroft Mill.

When you say that's how you finished up here, Wilfred offered you a job?

R - Wilfred said that if I played cricket with Barnoldswick he’d find me a job, which suited me down to the ground.

What doing?

(850)

R- Well, he said he'd start me off in the preparation room and we’d see how we went on from there. But also I got seven and sixpence [37 new pence] a week, which felt like a lot of money to me in them days, every week off him, out of his own pocket.

What, on top of your wage?

R - yes.

Wilfred must have been a keen cricketer.

R - He were, he were president of the club. But don’t get Old Wilfred wrong, you'd always to do something before you’d get it off him. He'd go above half way with you. He'd say “Right, Well, I’ll give you £500 for something but you’ve to raise the other £250. When you've got that £250 I’ll give £500.” So that meant that he were going to get people to work for the cricket club, do something about it before they've got that 500 so easy you see?

Aye. So you'd sell up In Earby then?

R- So we sold the bakehouse then.

And, now you, you didn't move to Barlick straight away did you from there?

R- No, we moved up to what we call Sough.

That’s it. Colne Road, that’s it yes.

R- Colne Road, across from the Cenotaph.

Aye, and how long were you there? That'd be you and your mother?

R- Me and me mother, yes. While we were there my mother married again in 1937, and then I moved to Barlick when they moved down to Birmingham. He worked in the Cooperative Society and got a better job with the Cooperative Society in Birmingham.

I see, so your mother went down there.

R- And me mother went down there and I came over to Barlick and I lodged with, well I lodged with a girl, and then we got married in 1939.

So in 1935 to 1937 you were working at Barlick but living at Sough. So how did you get to work; bike up?

R- No, bus.

Bus? Aye.

R- I think it left Earby at half past six, either that or twenty five past six.

Aye. What time did you start work?

R- Seven.

Seven. Aye. So you….

R- Seven o’clock, so we started at seven then we’d half past eight till nine o'clock for breakfast, nine o'clock till half past twelve, and then half past twelve till half past one for lunch and them half past one till half past five at night. But that, for t’preparation department such as tape sizers and preparation room, didn't finish there. Tape sizing and preparation carried on till nine o’clock Monday, Tuesday, they’d Wednesday off, and Thursday and Friday.

(900)
(40 Min)

Aye. Now I’d better just make one thing clear at this point while we are on this tape, because this is where we start to come into the Bancroft job ... this was working for what was them James Nutter & Sons?

R- James Nutter & Sons at Bancroft Shed.

At Bancroft Shed. That’s it. And you’ve been working, apart from your war service, you've worked for them ever since?

R- Ever since.

So that was 1935, that's forty three years now. It's like a fair length of time Jim. So in those days ... I don’t really know which way to go now, we’ve got to … Let's go with cricket a bit. You’re on for Barlick.

R- Yes.

You are playing for Barlick. Now did you go straight on to the first team?

R - Yes.

Good man eh! Aye, straight on for the first team.

R - No you see, I dropped .. In my way of thinking I dropped a grade in cricket when I come from Colne down to Barnoldswick.

From Colne … you were on t’first team at Colne?

R- Yes.

How many teams had they at Colne?

R- Three.

And when you went there you went on to the first…

R- I went straight into the first team when I left Earby, at …

You must have been fairly good Jim.

R - I weren't so bad, you know?

Yes. What was your main… what were you, a bowler, a batsman?

R- Both.

Both? Aye.

R- I’m what you could call, although I say it myself, a brilliant slip fielder.

Brilliant! There's nowt like modesty Jim! [Both laughing]

R- No it's …

No no, but I know you must have been good, that's all there is to it. So, you are playing your cricket and you are enjoying your cricket.

R- I'm enjoying me cricket. I mean to say, if you can’t enjoy cricket with everything laid on for you, super nets, super cricketers to play with and good tackle…

This were Barlick?

R- Colne.

Colne, aye,

R- Good wickets to bat on…then come to fielding, you also used to spend half an hour to three quarters of an hour on fielding practice. And we used to have what we called, well, I’m just forgetting what we called it…a cradle into which the ball were either knocked or thrown into and it used to come out at all different angles. You’d spend time with that and then you’d have the pro knocking catches up. Everything were real, well organised practice, you weren't having any Tom, Dick and Harry bowling at you. The first team bowlers used to go down to the second team net for a period and bowl at the top batters or what were reckoned to be the top batters in the second eleven. Second eleven, their bowlers would come up and bowl and see how they shaped against the top flight in't first team batters and so forth. But when you came to Barlick

(950)

there were just a net got put up and nowt organised you know. If you were down first you got first preference to and if you wanted a ball, if you didn't say to somebody “I’ll have that one when you’ve finished with it” and he might be half an hour. Nowt like that at Colne. You’d a period of so long to bowl, and so long batting and everything were worked out.

How were you received when you came to Barlick, ‘cause I mean like, you'd be brought since…you were young then, I mean, were you the youngest man on the team?

R- Well I would be then Stanley.

Yes. I mean…

R - But I had more experience.

Yes, well I know, but there can be, there can be a bit of friction can there like ..

R- You see when I came .. say I came from Colne .. well like they’d know like a Colne cricketer is a grade higher than what it were at Barlick. So you were kind of looked up to for a bit you know. And like you’d be probably next man in line to the pro at the head [of the batting order] and so forth. So me first match, it were against MacDonald and I were to play in a football final and I didn’t want to get hurt. I thought well, I’d better make it so as I don’t get hurt because we were meant to be playing in a medal competition at Friday night with Earby Cricket Club so I says No, I’m not playing that. I must make certain I go to this cricket match.

Who were you playing?

R - Blackpool.

Aye. Were it at Barlick?

R - Barlick And .. I think I keyed myself up that much, you know. And funny enough I went in and t’first ball of the day, I never saw it but I were walking out! Well I thought, that’s a bugger of a start! And as I said, but I didn't half hit ‘em if I could see ‘em. Anyway, I had the batting prize and .. I didn't do so bad.

How about t’rest of the first match, did you retrieve yourself at all with bowling or owt?

R - No I didn’t Stanley. I think I got too keyed up you know.

Aye, that’s it. Aye.

R - You know but .. I were only young really then.

Aye, that's it.

R – And, tha gets to a pitch when tha tries that hard, it's ...

Aye. What did Wilfred have to say about the job? Nowt?

R- He didn't say owt. No, and when I got me wage at Wednesday I still got me seven and sixpence off him and all.

So that were all right then.

R - But this is when life started. I were pleased that there were a job. I never had a job before, never had a boss really, you know?

And what were the wage when you started?

(1000)

R – Well, when I started here it were a matter of ... oh I couldn't say Stanley. It’d be …you'd start learning hand twisting for a start and hand twisting in them days would be fourpence ha’penny a thousand ends. If I knotted a thousand ends I'd have earned fourpence ha’penny and anyway, they made me wage up to a certain figure you know.

When you say hand knotting, twisting, that were sitting in the frame and going down with two, going down the ends doing the same as the Barber Coleman does now.

R - Barber and Coleman knotter does now. Yes, only you picked them out with one hand and knotted 'em with the other.

And how many ends could a good fellow do in a day?

R- Oh, a good hand twister would do …fifteen thousand?

In a day?

R - In a day.

So like, three thousand end warps he could ...

R – He would do five easily like five yes.

He'd do five warps in a day. Aye

R - But take it on that, we are speaking Stanley about when you were on nine hours a day aren’t we?

Yes, that’s it, aye.

R- Now, we are only doing eight.

Now I'm asking you this question because I know the answer to it but when you first started it’d be like fairly hard on your fingers wouldn’t it?

R- It would be fairly hard on your fingers yes. Same as when I started and you come down to twisting same as tens and twelve’s [yarn counts] often I’d be twisting in blood, they’d be cut through.

Aye. That's the count of the yarn, fairly heavy yarn.

R- Yes, yarn count you see. If you were twisting heavy counts of yarn it soon cuts into your fingers. But to eliminate a bit of that cutting, you can mix glycerine and whitening up which tends to keep your fingers just a slight bit softer and more pliable so that when you come to break these ends off and twist them up your finger, there’s more, it’s pliable you know, more give to it.

Yes. So you'd have a tin of that on the side of the frame.

R- Tin of that and every now and again you’d dip your finger in. But it’s a job I didn’t take to. Hand twisting. I could do it but I didn’t enjoy it.


SCG/18 October 2002
7316 words.





LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/3

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JULY 24TH 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.



Right, quietly away Jim. Right, something you said last week about how bad it was to find work, and your father was working in the bakery, he wasn’t working in the mill. And you couldn't find a job when you left school. Now, if your father had worked in the mill, do you think it would have been any easier for you to have got a job?

R- Oh definitely. You must have somebody to push you in them days.

That was the secret, I mean, having…

R - Having a connection of some description Stanley.

So with being a, what it amounted to was that with being a cricketer and with Wilfred being a cricketer, you got this job at Bancroft.

R- Yes. Flat out.

Flat out, that was the key.

R – Key, that were t’key to it.

Yes right. So you are working up at Bancroft, and you're twisting and you don't like it.

R- I don’t like hand twisting but I did it.

(50)

Yes. Why didn't you like hand twisting Jim?

R- I don't really know Stanley but I didn’t. It's .. you either like it or you don’t like the job, isn’t it? It's as simple as that. But I did it, I could do it, but I wouldn't have settled down at hand twisting. I had me eye on sitting on a buffet on like t’other side which we called the drawing side. The place where you started from scratch and put pattern into the healds.

So now, hand twisting, tell me exactly what you were doing when you were twisting. I mean for a start off, what we are talking about is warp preparation, it’s preparing warps that have been taped and sized and we are talking about fitting them up with the necessary healds and reeds for you to be able to weave them in a loom.

R - In a loom. Now then…

That’s it. Now you tell exactly what hand twisting is.

R - Hand twisting amounts to, once they've been in the mill, there’s your set of healds and reeds that comes out of the shed, and you know it’s a sound heald and sound reed that can be knotted back if there is a continuity of that order. So what you did in the old days was hand twist them back. And that's by taking an end from your heald side, and taking an end from your warp side and knotting it by finger, like we said last week. And to keep your fingers pliable you just put one dip into some whitening with a bit of glycerine, smear it up your finger and pick one end from your warp side, one from your heald side and run it up your finger, and that'll give you a twisting. [a knot]

(100)

How common was that in those days, Jim? How common was hand twisting in
1930. What was it, or 1935 was it?

R- Thirty five. Well, there wasn't a lot of it then because what you did, you got Barber and Coleman knotting machine, them were the rage in them days, Barber and Coleman knotters. And you could do them on a machine and you'd go through a warp of a number of ends, of say twenty five hundred ends, you’d go through that in ten minute.

(5 Min)

And they, Nutters hadn't got a Barber Coleman then?

R - Nutters had got a Barber and Coleman then but they always needed a spare man on hand twisting.

When would they get the Barber machine in Nutters.

A - Well, when I come here at 1935 it’d be, it was in, and possibly that’d be in when this firm started up in 1921.

Yes. And was anybody hand drawing then?

R- There were four hand drawers.

Aye …

R - You see, in them days, Stanley, we were on eleven fifty two looms. Preparation side worked from seven in the morning, half an hour break at half past eight till nine o'clock for breakfast then you carried through from nine o'clock while half past twelve, then you had lunch break from half past twelve till half past one and you worked through then another four hours till half past five. But the preparation side of this firm in them days carried on working from half past five till nine o’clock every night for four night per week, you'd one night off which was Wednesday night because the fellow

(150)

that ran the Barber and Coleman machine had to go to the Cooperative society meeting on a Wednesday night, and that's why you got one night off.

Who ran the Barber and Coleman then?

R- A fellow called Russell Wilkinson.

And can you remember the names of any of the others that were working with it?

R- Well, a fellow called Bill Whiteoak, Bill Whiteoak worked what you could call the putting in machine, take it down, do all the repairs for it, and he were more or less the main man for the machine were Bill Whiteoak. Russell. Wilkinson were knocking on, well he were I should say about fifty, fifty three or four then. And when you'd one of them machines, a Barber and Coleman, there is always what you call a backman, and that were a fellow called Eccleston. Now then, Russell Wilkinson in them days when he were up here, he were more or less preparing himself to go to another place of Nutters which was Westfield Mill. So when Russell Wilkinson got on the move, Billy Whiteoak, which I've just mentioned, took complete charge of that machine. He used to do repairs to all the electric stuff and that.

And who were hand drawing then?

R- Hand drawing? Dan Brennan, Walter Plumley and Bob Walker. And they used to a have a spare man called Bobby Calvert.

They used to have a … ?

R- A spare man called Bobby Calvert. Now, and at top of that you'd also got two fellows and one used to have all your healds and reeds ready, clean, for the machine and also put sets at the side of the drawers which they had to

(200)

do that day. Then the second man for that used to come and he’d go round, he’d
go down and carry his healds about for him while he brought them into the hoist, old wood hoist, and brought them upstairs. He’d sweep up a bit for, he was what you could call a spare, odd man about. He’d be on only about twenty five or twenty seven and six a week then.

So, if you are on straight going sorts, you know, say you were in a mill with sorts that'd go through a Barber machine. Under good conditions you know, and the type of warps we have here, how many looms would a Barber machine service, you know, how many would it keep going ?

R – Well, you reckon it up, a good Barber and Coleman with a good backman would do about 32 or 33 warps a day.

(10 Min)

That’s in…

R- On them hours we were doing that I've been…

On a long day.

R- On a long day.

And how many warps a day do you reckon that you’d need in those days with eleven hundred loom in?

R- Well, I've seen us when we worked from, those hours I’ve told you, and also Saturday morning while half past ten, I've seen the downs in that shed come out at four hundred and five hundred a week.

When you talk about downs, that's the number of empty warps that are coming out?

R - Warps. Out of the shed.

Yes. That, they've got to be replaced.

R- So they have got to be replaced by the preparation staff.

Yes. So that could be .. four to five hundred a week?

R - Yes. Because there were some sorts in that shed that were only lasting a fortnight. People in them days were only on fours and fives [looms]. Now them looms were speeded up to what they’re going now, and they’re on ten looms.

Yes. How fast would they he running then, picks per minute?

R- Two hundred and twenty picks a minute.

And what would they be running at now?

R- One hundred and eighty.

So when the More Loom System came in, the looms had to be slowed down?

R - They'd just got to be slowed down.

We’ll just talk about More Looms for a minute or two now because that was about the same time wasn’t it, 1935, now we are not talking about Bancroft

(250)

now, I can remember you telling me about something, about Sough Bridge Mill and mounted police. Now tell me about that.

R - This is when the strike were on.

Which strike was this Jim?

R – It’d be .. that’d be before ... How I came to be involved in that strike Stanley, that was when I had no work, I wasn't working yet. With being interested in mills I used to go to some pals of mine that were working at Sough Bridge. Unknown to me, I didn't think anything were going to happen, so what I did .. as normal, I goes up to me pals up there and does a bit of reaching in for ‘em and such as that, but drawing in ... I should say I'd be roughly about fifteen then so you can say it'd be about nineteen what, thirty ... ?

Thirty one.

R - Thirty one, thirty two, wouldn't it? Now when they come to finish at half past five and we came down them stairs I were amazed .. police, crowd, booing us, I were innocent I didn't know about such thing as a strikes. And then in come t’police and started with truncheons and scattered them, they ran across the railway at Sough Bridge and…

Who were these people?

R - From other mills.

In Earby or Barlick?

R - Both places, Earby and Barlick Stanley.



A contemporary newspaper picture of the picket at Earby in 1932.

Were t’police on foot?

R - Police were on foot. And they said a lot of them police were brought in specially, they weren't actually police but brought from Doncaster area. A bit rough.

Aye yes. So when you say they weren’t actually police, they'd be police but they weren’t police from this area, they were from out of the area.

A – No. Out of the area.

Aye. Have you any idea what that strike was about?

R - Better wages.

How?

R- See this were the time Stanley when they were increasing t’loom’s from fours and fives up to sixes and eights, such stuff as that. Now anybody

(300)

that were running same as four loom and they were took on to six they thought they should happen have had one and a half times as much pay which doesn’t work out that way, not at the time, not in't bosses eyes they didn’t.

Aye .. yes. No because the idea was to make more money wasn’t it. Obviously they wouldn't weave as much. Ernie said something very interesting about that, but of course you'll know about that. An average tackler’s set in them days before the .. you know, talking about 1935 would be 144.

R – Well, when I came here, when I came here at first Stanley, average tackler’s set was 140 per set, and that included, that were made up with what we call motion looms. So if you had more motion looms in that set you had more changes haven’t you. ‘Cause you come with Jeannettes which is a different lift and twills which is a different lift, so it means more changing on the wheels and on their undermotion.

That's it. Yes. And he was saying that the average in a Lancashire loom shop, straight going on, not like we are working at the moment but straight going on, average set now’d be ., a standard now'd be about 70, but he was saying that the 140 would take less running than the 70 because more or less all you had to do in those days was change warps. He says that with them being nearly new looms you know, and a weaver only having four or six looms, they were doing jobs for themselves and this and that and the other…

(18 Min)

R – Well, he could be right in that respect because you'd a far better class of weavers in them days than what you have now Stanley, which is a big thing to a tackler. When you come and you get a weaver having a smash ... Weavers in the old days had to take them up.

Now just explain what a smash is.

R - End breakages. Like we've talked, taking one end from on side and one to t’other. Like you come with a smash, ends from your warp side just break out. It might be a shuttle that catched with a splinter, go straight in and you’ve all these end breakages at t'back. So that means that set had to be brought out or took up by the weaver. Now weavers in the old days could

(350)

take them up and they had to take ‘em up but not now. If they've above thirty ends out, that warp’ll have to come out Stanley. Not in the old days. You see there were nothing else and they knew they had it to do [if it took] all day Stanley.

When you say, when you mentioned..

R- And there was also... what I’m saying Stanley, there were always somebody in the old days waiting of somebody either being stopped, or finishing through old age. You could come in this shed at seven o'clock .. well you could come in the shed at twenty to seven and there’d be weavers stood in that warehouse waiting to see if any weavers didn't turn up. Now what we call the boss tackler in them days, he’d go down that line .. They used to line up, he’d go down that line, but he wouldn't take t’first weaver that came in at that door, he’d walk down and think “Well, I know she is a good type” even if she’d come last. And he'd put them on some looms where someone hadn't turned up by seven o'clock. So there were always somebody waiting on somebody else's looms Stanley.

So there were that incentive to work?

R- Yes.

When you were talking about a smash just then you mentioned thirty ends. If there is more than thirty ends down, you know, somebody had to take it up or else they'd [Someone from the preparation room] have to come down ... Is that a figure that's been set by the Union, you know, now?

R- No, there's no figure set Stanley.

R- But some can take thirty ends up and it's nothing to ‘em, and then you'll get another .... oh dear they wouldn't know where to start.

(400)

Yes. And the thing is, it's no good to the management because while they are taking them ends up the other looms are stopped.

R- All t’other looms are stopped, your production's decreasing all the time isn't it.

Yes. That’s it yes. Now, when they were on four and six looms did the weavers have anything done for them or did they have everything to do for themselves? I’m thinking about things like …

R- They'd everything to do for themselves Stanley, including loom sweeping.

So they had cloth carrying …

R - They'd cloth to carry out into the warehouse, they’d their own looms to sweep and they had to sweep the back alleys.

Did the … was the cloth taken out into the warehouse on the roller like we take it out now?

R- No. All them pieces was pulled off by hand, and pieces in them days was standard, hundred yards. So that weaver, as soon as she's woven hundred yards had to let slack on her cloth roller and pull that off, hundred yards and then cut it across, put the end back on that roller, tighten that roller back up, and then start weaving again. And then when they’d straightened up they had that piece along with the warp card, to bring into the warehouse. They also know if they'd have any faulty faults in it. And if there were any faults in it, and they know about it, they’d be waiting to see which cutlooker were going to do it because your cutlooker, some of them were absolutely dead strict and you might get one that's just a bit…

Now the cut-looker is the man who puts it on the plaiting machine and ...

R- examines the cloth.

That's it, and examines it while it’s going through.

R- He’s looking, he is a fault finder.

Yes. How many cut-lookers did we have here?

R- Five, and two cloth bundlers. When the cut-looker examines one piece, runs it, he’d put it on, he’d run it over that machine, he might pull it back to give it a further examination, but he still has to run it. You know what we call cloth bundlers? They’d drop that plate on that machine, take that piece out and put it on a table and wait for another piece being done of the some quality, same type, put them two together and bundle them up, put string round them, tighten them and put them in one certain pile till your cloth customer was ready for collection on that cloth.

Now, what was the, we'll go back to the drawing side. When you were drawing then, well, you weren't drawing at the time, we are talking about when you came twisting. Were they drawing on frames like you use now or were they drawing with reachers in?

(450)

R- They were drawing like, on a pedal machine like I use now, and a small spider at t’back.

Yes, that’s it, so in other words they were drawing in exactly the same way in 1935 that you are drawing now.

R- That I am drawing now.

And on the same frame?

R- On the same frame.

Yes. So is that the frame that you learnt on?

R- No, not now it isn’t.

No. Now, you were twisting and you didn't like it. So how long were you twisting before they decided to give you a chance at drawing in?

R- Oh, I should say only about six months.

And did you have to know something about cloth construction before you started drawing or did you just learn it as you went along?

R- I just learned that as I went along Stanley.

Because nowadays you'd be going to night school wouldn’t you and doing ...

R- No. I've learned every bit of my cotton here.

Oh yes, I realise that Jim, but I'm saying that if somebody was doing a training course nowadays …

R – Oh, they'd have to go to college.

That's it yes. And so how did you learn? I mean because, obviously, much you could learn through experience but a lot you wouldn't be able to because .. you know, I mean I know your knowledge is very wide, so how did you learn? Did you learn by reading or asking questions ?

R- I've read a lot Stanley, and put it into practice and seen if it worked, and if you find out it works that's it isn't it? But where I started to … Don't think that I just come up twisting and I could draw warps. I couldn't. I’d an idea, a rough idea, but I didn't get to go on that buffet permanent until I could do that job .. well, as perfect as it’s possible without making any faults. I'd to learn that in my dinner hours from half past twelve till half past one. All I did were just having me dinner and then I sat down on one frame, one of the drawer's frames and learn it that way. And then I'd just one man that [let me use his frame] The way I had to learn this was by forfeiting me dinner hour and getting permission off one of t’drawers to let me use that frame and t’warp that he had in. Now that drawer took a risk because he didn’t know whether I could do t’job, well he knew I couldn't, but any mistakes that I made on that frame while I

(500)

were learning, he had to rectify. Now drawers in them days were paid by what we call endage. Warps some warps have eighteen hundred ends, some's two thousand five hundred ends and some go up to three thousand five hundred. So depending on the width of your cloth and your construction of your cloth. So I’d look well doing say half a warp and finding out I had a, what we call an empty dent, that's in a reed .. now reeds are made up of dents, you've so many dents per inch, so I’d look well missing one of them. What I mean with missing is not putting an end in that one dent. So he’d have all that half of that warp to rectify before he started. Now that fellow's losing money, he's lost in endage. So, one were good enough to let me use his frame and it didn't take me long ‘cause I were interested in drawing.



Bancroft Mill; Loomers and twisters, coronation 1937. Back row, Left to right: Dan Brennan, Bill Eccleston, Bob Walker, Fred Walker, Walter F Plumley and Harry Clavert. Front row; Miss Jane Atkinson, Lawrence Kiernan, Mrs Grev Davy, Billy Whiteoak, Hilda Lomax and Hettie Clark.

(25 Min)

I should say after happen about nine months I could sit down and draw a warp in, say, an hour and a half, which weren't bad in them days. Now then when I were becoming proficient, other drawers that were working there objected to me going on this fellow’s frames because when I'd become partly proficient that fellow’s gaining on them. So it meant that I had to go from one frame to another frame five days a weeks in the dinner hour.

And they didn't take into account the fact that you'd made your mistakes and he had to put them right?

R- No, that weren't took into the accounting Stanley you see.

So there was a bit of ill feeling even in them days.

R- A bit of ill feeling in them days you see? Now some of ‘em in them days ... isn't it funny eh? If a fellow made a mistake, with one particular fellow, if he made a mistake in that warp he wouldn't rectify that mistake straight away, he’d stop in happen at breakfast time, which was half an hour, or at dinner time which was an hour. He’d know where to put that warp so as it wouldn't go into the shed for weaving. Put that warp in at dinner here back in his frame and rectify it in an hour so as he didn't lose nowt on ordinary time.

(550)

So there'd be no such thing as… ‘That’d be acceptable,’ but it wouldn't he acceptable to say, gait a warp up during dinner hour and do a few ends an it to make a bit more money? No?

R- No, oh no.

That would be frowned on.

R - That would be… Oh no, they wouldn’t allow that Stanley.

And I take it in those days that these men would all be in the Drawer and Twisters Union?

R - No, there wasn’t one in the Union in them days here Stanley.

Aye.

R- It were a none Union place.

Nutters as a whole ..

R- Was a none Union place.

By choice or by decree, you know?

R- Well, they never forced you to join the Union then Stanley, if you didn't want to join the Union you didn't join the Union.

Well what did the Union people think about that, there would surely be somebody here that was working in the Union?

R - I can't tell of anyone here in t’Union in them days.

If there had had been anybody in a Union at Nutters in those days. Would they have kept the job long, do you think?

R - This is sommat I don't know Stanley.

In your experience can you think of anybody ever being dismissed from Nutters because, say, the management found out that they were in t’Union?

R - No I can’t tell of it. If you did your work with Nutters that’s all they wanted you for, for your work. If you worked you got paid for it, you got paid as much as anybody else got paid.

How many weavers were there here then? I'm not talking about more loom system, I’m talking about four and six looms.

R- Oh Stanley.

Roughly.

R- I should say they employed, I should say going on for 350 to 400 in them days here.

And the weaver’s pay, were they paid any basic wage at all or was it all on piece work?

R - All on piece work, there were no such thing as bonus.

So they were all paid on the amount of cloth …

R- They were paid on the cloth yardage. If they brought a warp in, say of hundred yards length, and it was happen say, three and sixpence in them days, they'd two of them off in a week, they’d seven shillings just for them two.

So in other words if somebody was on four looms and they had three bad warps in and they only got a piece off one loom that week, they’d only draw for one piece for that week.

R- That’s so.

So they'd be …

R - And all them pieces had to be booked in. What I mean with booked in is you've got a card, a warp card, with the numbers of cuts which is on that warp. Now then, as soon as you have woven hundred yards, say t’cut card's made for seven cuts, you bring that card in along with your piece, there's one knocked off giving you six isn’t there? So when they come at week end that’s put in a book. So we'll just explain things .. Mrs Graham, she's one off that 1609, whichever it is, all warps had the sort number. She’s one off that warp, she might have one off another one. If she's four pieces off at say seven shillings a piece, she knew she were going to draw twenty eight shillings per week. There were no such thing … Some could got away with it, what they called ‘Booking pieces’. Now supposing it were coming to late Friday night and they were just short they’d say "Well, I’ve one, I can see t’mark on t’warp beam.” Now just depending who booked it in, they might say “Right, I’ll book that for you for next week" But that, if they'd been found out, weren't allowed. It was what was on that floor tied up, and that piece that were tied up was what they got paid on.
[This explanation, even though I have cleaned it up, might not be perfectly clear to everyone. Jim is talking about collusion between the weaver and the cut-looker to book cuts into the warehouse even though they were still in the loom. This ensured that the weaver had a living wage for that week. Whether it happened depended on the relationship between the cut looker and the weaver. It was not unknown for a weaver to flirt (at least) with the cut looker to gain favours. This was a fundamental factor in the economic life of the shed and can’t be over rated.]

Friday would be making up day would it.

R- Friday were what we call making up day.

And what time on Friday was the last time for bringing a warp in, you know bringing a piece into the warehouse.

R - Half past three.

Half past three. That was to give them time to get it bundled up and booked before …

R- Bundled up and booked in you see, that’d give them two hours.

Yes. And that would be on the next week’s pay?

R- That's right.

And when were they paid?

R- On the Wednesday, like we are now.

Yes. And how were they paid? I mean nowadays of course, we get paid with a little paper packet with the money in and a slip that tells you .. But what did you get then?

R- They used to get it in ... Every tackler used to have a kind of board. Now in that board there were made slots and you used to have a small tin that’d fit in them slots which had all pound notes, which there never were a big lot of pound notes in them days so you'd happen have one pound note folded up and you'd six or seven shillings which went with it in each one of these tins. And that overlooker used to take them in on his hand, that tray, and he’d start off at, say he were the first tackler in at that shed door, he’d be at [loom] number 1, 2, 3, 4. That’d be one weaver on a four loom set, so he’d give that weaver that tin.

And how did he know which weaver’s tin were which, were they numbered?

R –They were numbered.

So they …

R- So you see, that saved them time, they weren't losing any time or production in any way, by the overlooker taking that to them instead of them coming out for their own pay.



Bancroft Mill, Coronation 1937. Group of tacklers in the warp preparation department. Top row, left to right; Harry Hartley, George Beaumont, Herbert Crow, Dick Smith, Bill Tomlinson. Front row; Levi Steele, Johnson Carr, Dick Lord, George Monks, Ted Burke.

(650)

Yes. So the tackler actually paid them their wage?

R- paid them their wage.

What would he the attitude then of a tackler, because some of them were a bit strict weren’t they. Some of the tacklers, What would the attitude be when they were going round? Would they make comments about the wages when they gave them to people do you think?

R- Oh yes. You see, in them days overlookers relied on the weavers for their wage.

In what way?

R- They used to get paid what we called poundage. The more pounds that weaver or them weavers on them 140 looms had off, and the bigger that overlookers wage was.

When you say pounds what do you mean? Pounds weight of cloth or…

R- Pounds in money.

Pounds in money, that’s it. So for every hundred pounds his set earned he’d get so much bonus.

R- He’d get so much, yes.

What were that bonus about? Do you know?

R- I couldn't tell you Stanley.

Yes. Well tackler’s wages always have been very secret subjects.

R - But you see, the king pins then, in them days on the wages, were the tapers or sizers.

Yes. Yes well we'll get on to the tapers in a minute you know, I want to get on to them in a minute.

R- I should say a tackler's wage in them days, Stanley, would only be about three pound sommat varying on what sort of a set of weavers he had under him.

How much power did a tackler have over his weavers?

R - Oh Stanley, they were ... well, there were no such thing as anybody demanding anything from the overlooker you know, "Come to this” Oh no, they were king pins were the overlookers, they were a law unto themselves were the overlookers.

Why was that do you think?

R- I don’t know. Well, if you go back and look at the overlookers in the old days, they'd either have a hell of a good connection with somebody, or their father had been an overlooker and this is how it worked. Say there were a fellow here and he were an overlooker and had a son that were leaving school that could follow him in [the shed], learn to weave and from weaving to overlooking. Now then if you had a uncle in that [shed who] were an overlooker. And this is the way it worked through the old days in overlooking.

So really the overlooker, in a lot of ways, was to all intents and purposes, the weavers boss?

(700)

R- Yes.

He actually would run the job.

R - There were no such a thing as anybody going to that toilet and stopping because that overlooker would have been at him in a shot. They used to have what we called benches where they did part of their work in the shed. And each one of them overlookers were in that shed most of t’time on that bench so he knew if anybody were missing.

Yes, that's it. The benches are still in there aren’t they?

R - You see there were no such thing as strong Unions then Stanley, do you follow what I mean? I don't think anybody there were, hardly anybody, in t’tackler’s union here. This is why it’s been handed down so easy, overlooking, sons, relations, you know. And that’s the way it were. That’s why if I hadn’t had me cricket, I’d never have got in at a place like this Stanley. You'd got to have somebody to push you, you know?

(35 Min)

But in effect you were being pushed by Wilfred.

R - I were being pushed by Wilfred.

Which wasn't a bad thing at all. So with these weavers, most of them have got four and six looms, they are weaving away in there, they’d he carrying their own weft ...

R - They were carrying their own weft and in them days weft come here just ready in a case.

Wood case.

R – Which’d weigh two hundred and fifty, three hundred pound a case. That’s just yarn and that case’d be put in the warehouse not in the shed because that shed were full of looms. It would be put in the warehouse and be marked up, it's either thirties or forties, whatever it was and the weavers would come out there and fill their tins up. Now them wouldn't be what we call a Welsh Hat pirn or put on a wood tube. They’d be a paste bottom cop or they’d have a small paper tube in t’bottom of that, what we call a cop. Now then, I don't know whether you have seen a paste cop, have you? Now when t’weaver had to broach a cop in them days, they’d to be spot on with it or otherwise they could what we call stab that cop and that cop’s finished, no good, won’t weave off, your yarn won’t come off in one thread, it will just keep breaking. Now they got, so they put paper tubes in which gives ‘em a guide for a start .. and then them had to be what we

(750)

call skewered on dead straight.

Those would be mule spun?

R- Them were what we’d call mule cops.

So there were no pirn winding in here then?

R- No, there were no pirn winding in them days Stanley.

So all the weft here came in…

R - Straight from, mule spun, from the spinner.

Straight off the mules.

R - straight off mule.

Was that better weft than what we, you know, was it better than re-wound weft?

R – No. You see, the trouble now is they've no trouble in skewering cops. They don't need to do that. Cop construction's different altogether and your shuttles is different to what they used to be in the old days. But we’ll go into that when we get further on.

That’s it yes.

R- Unless we are going to get a bit, moved a bit far on.

Yes. Yes that's it. Now then, we've got [the] preparation department and you’ve just started drawing. Now of course the other important, well, I know some people’d say the main part is the taping, tape sizing. Now in those days the yarn would come in just exactly the same as it does now for the warp, it’d come in on back beams.

R - What we call back beams, yes, they come straight from t’spinner.

Yes. Now you just tell me a bit about that.

R- Well, what happens you see, the construction of cloth is made up by a warp and a weft. Now for different constructions you need different numbers of ends Stanley. Now, if we come to give spinners particulars I might say I want a set of beams, five beams making, I’ll just say two thousand ends. Which means there'll be five back beans of four hundred ends on each beam. And then to follow that, what you do, you give ‘em a yardage of cloth which you want to make. Now on that, if I'm making a set and I want a twenty thousand yards of cloth off it that length’s governed by your healds, your reed and your pick. The higher your reed, higher your pick, you give that cloth a what we call ‘a longer tape length'. If you want one hundred yards you don't just say to the taper I want a hundred yards. It doesn’t work that way. You've got to give him a yardage of say… We’ll just take for instance, I’m going to do a two and two twill, seventy one reed by forty four pick, that's what we call us table count. Count that’d come from the spinners in the first instance would be seventy six by forty six, forties and forties which means they want a seventy-two or seventy one reed and a forty four pick wheel putting on it. And your yarn, .. on t’warp side they’ve got to be forty count and your weft yarn's got to be forty. Now then, if the cloth construction doesn't count that when it comes off the loom, you find out that you might he a bit down with your pick and your reed. But near enough, the construction that I've given you there will bring that and you’d find that out with experience. So I’ll say to the taper for that, “I want a cloth length of say a hundred and three yards multiplied by eighteen.” That's eighteen inch isn't it. So that's half of thirty six inches (a yard) isn’t it. Now, why I give it to him that way is because his clock marks are at half mark, which is fifty yards. So I put them two together which is say, eighteen multiplied be a hundred and three is what? Three eights is twenty four, eighteen, fifty four inches on that clock setting. So when his first mark strikes he knows he’s got fifty yards on that beam. And it'll start again his clock, start moving back, on again and it'll do another eighteen which gives him thirty six. So he’s got two marks in there that'll give him his hundred yards. And that's the way it's worked. But you can't just say “Give me an eighteen hundred, put eighteen hundred on that" It wouldn’t work, you’d be short. Each piece would be short. And why they’re short is because as your weft is going across your warp it's curling and pulling it up.

That's it.

[Jim gets his figures slightly confused here but the sense of what he is conveying seems clear. The reader should recognise that what he is trying to do is describe cloth contraction and the measures that have to be taken to ensure that the finished cloth is to size and specification.]

R- And that's why you've to give extra for what we call bend in t’weft. You might not think it would but each one, every time your weft thread to coming across it is going across one thread of warp yarn and it’s making a loop, so that’s actually taking more weft than just going straight across.

That’s it. And the same thing applies Jim, doesn’t it to ... not for the same reason but … In order to be able to weave a cloth of say thirty six inches wide, how wide do they actually weave it? You know, to get it thirty six inch when it comes off the loom.

R- Well, a lot of this is done by what I call practice Stanley, something that you get used to, contraction. You can get books and read about it and nobody'll give you anything concrete, a definite system to go off.

No formula?

(850)

R - No formula. They give you a formula which will always bring you out on the top side. And what you do is you take that formula and you break it down from there. Do you follow me?

Yes.

R - You might get somebody and they'll give you a formula, this formula, if you want, say forty and a half inch cloth, it'll come out forty and three quarters. So you always know you've that little bit to play with if you go off the book. But you can't afford to do that, so you get used to the way that it works and you're not going to over specify yourself in weft and warp. You can bring it down to a finer margin.

That’s it, because if your cloth is supposed to be forty inch wide and it’s actually coming off at forty and a quarter inches, and it's a hundred yards long you’ve actually given away the amount of cotton and weaving that's in a strip a quarter of an inch wide and hundred yards long.

R- I’ve given it away, that’s it. Suppose it's a fifty six reed. It’s coming out a quarter of an inch wider, you can take it on that I’ve given them, I've given that warp fourteen ends too many, and on a twenty thousand yard set, fourteen ends, weight of that is the price of the cotton. Now on top of that I've lost that quarter of an inch of me weft all the way. So I'm loosing both in warp and weft, and you can’t afford to do that.

That’s where the art comes into it.

R- This is where art and practice comes in.

And does everybody, would you say that everybody that was in your position as a weaving manager’d learn that or do some people never learn it?

R – Some of the weaving managers, never. I can take you to some and they can’t even calculate ends and such as that, never mind cloth width!

And yet you never went to night school, you learnt it yourself in your dinner hour?

R- I learnt it , well I've learnt over the years Stanley, being interested and .. if anybody wanted to show me anything, even though it weren’t part of me job, then I'd soak it in.

Yes, well, I think that has a lot to say for the process of teaching yourself, of the sort of bloke you are Jim.

R- You see, you must always be learning in this job Stanley, you'll never know too much, and I'm always keen to learn.

Well, you still go to bed with Pitman’s now don't you?

R- I still go to bed with Pitman’s.
[Pitman’s is a famous textile reference book.]

SCG/19 October 2002
7273 words




LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/4

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON JULY 31st 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


Now then, today I'd like to just dig into t’weft business a bit.

R- Weft.

Aye, weft. Well, weft and yarn, like into t’yarn business. Now, at Bancroft, well, you tell me, what sort of material are we weaving at Bancroft now?

R - In what way?

Well, when I say material, you know, what's the yarn? Are we man-made or cotton, you know?

R- I should say you can call this place all cotton, no man made fibre.

Yes, that’s it. And how many places will there be now, there won’t he too many will there, that's weaving all cotton now.

R- Very few. Mostly where there's Lancashire looms.

Yes. Is there a particular reason for that?

(50)

R- No particular reason. But manmade fibres is more difficult to weave with Lancashire looms than, what it is then, these looms that they are making now… Well, such an Northrops, you are going back twenty or twenty five years. They could do, they were more or less made to take manmade fibres. But for the Lancashire looms as we know then in this place, it's what we call a hit and miss method using manmade fibres. You've no positive .. what can I say? You’ve nothing really positive about what you’re doing if you follow what I mean. You've no books to go off, so you’ve to try something and if you find that works you stick by it.

It’s really, when you come to think about it, it's the way that they'd weave cotton in the first place.

R- In the first place. You see, same as here, main thing about manmade fibre is the sizing. Now you'll know, we’ve t’original tape sizing machines, which were probably made in 1912. And we’ve got to adapt ourselves wit' the size mix for manmade fibres here. Like such as now, they’ve coatings they make like a plastic size and well, they brought sizing out for manmade fibres but with our type of loom Stanley, you can’t get away with it.

(100)

so we continue to use our method of sizing with sago flour and tallow, pure tallow.

And these looms here are all plain, well, there’s some with dobbbies on isn't there but…

R- There’s, no, there’s some with what you call undermotion on.

That’s it aye, they are not really dobbies are they.

R- They are not really dobbies.

No, undermotion. that's it.

R- We’ve what we call a change loom and that's done by undermotion. So what you can do, you take one lot of tappets Stanley put them on and alter your gear wheels at the side which alters your lift on your healds, which make’s them either go two up two down, three up and one down or independent, one, two, three, four.

Yes. That’s it, which in altering your cloth construction

R- Which is altering your cloth construction.

That’s it, aye. And we can go up to four staves, four healds can’t we.

R - We can go up to four staves,

Yes, on the main of the looms.

R- Yes. Before the war we had looms here which had dobbies on and we used to weave 16 staves, but there weren't a big enough trade for it, just after the war, we took them looms out, and put more motion ones in.

What sort of cloth would you need 16 staves for Jim.

R- Well, they used to do, there was a type of curtaining in them days which were coloured yarn. We didn’t size that, it came in, and we had a pattern to put in it, if you follow what I mean. Happen so many yellows, so many reds, so many blues and they finished up with a pattern in your cloth which was for cheap curtaining then.

Aye. Now .. in the older days they did their own beaming here didn't they?

R - They did their own beaming here.

Now just explain what beaming is.

R – Now, beaming ... and how can I put this Stanley ?

Now, first of all. I’ve asked you that question there … Now hang on a minute, I’ll ask you about …

R- Before you get to beaming you see, the whole of beaming is your construction of cloth. I can say to you that we made beams. Instead of a weaver's beam, they have a bigger beam, and they put ends on that beam, but it isn’t so simple Stanley. You see, it all comes down to cloth construction. Supposing you want a twenty six hundred set of ends. Now then, you give the particulars to your beamers, your man in charge of your beaming. And he'd work out how many beams he wanted, how many ends per beam he required. Now, to get that what you need you’d need some, what we call, old bobbin winders in them days. And they used to wind from cop, more or less like what we’ve explained before, off the weavers' cop. And what they'd do with them, they'd have a long, more like a drawing frame. We haven't talked about such as drawing as we knew it, when it comes to weft have we? Weft drawing? Well, what they had, they'd a long frame and from one end to the other you could say there’d be a hundred spindles. Now they’re attached [driven by] to a circular metal roller, happen

(200)

about twelve inch diameter, under this frame, and strings attached from round that cylinder up to your spindles and that's driven by a wheel and that’s turning. Right? So that’s easing your cop strain a bit. I’m going back years now with it. From there on top of that you have another cylinder, to which you fit a wood cone.

So that the first set of spindles was turning your cops so that there wasn’t a lot of stretch on the yarn?

R- That’s it. There weren't a lot of strain you see, a slight movement so that it took a lot of strain out of it. Now then, you come to your top where your wood bobbin was attached… it's so difficult Stanley, it's years since we did this, you know?

(10 Min)

You are doing all right.

R - How can I put it?

Those bobbins were rather like a very large sewing machine bobbins weren't they, as you see now.

R – Yes, and they were worked by another string which was on the same fitting on a string but the cylinder that went across was of a smaller diameter and it seemed to turn faster. Now you put one end from your cop which I’ve told you about

(250)

to your bobbin at t’front and them’d turn. Also as your bobbin at t’front is turning it's raising. So it's going up and down and that is automatically giving your bobbin a level …

Spreading your yarn on your bobbin.

R – It’s spreading your yarn and it's keeping it even,

Yes. Now those cops that you've put on, that we are talking about. In those days you’d be, you'd be winding on to those bobbins off mule cops wouldn't you'?

R- Off mule cop and they’ve the same difficulty as the weaver has because there wasn't [a hollow pirn to guide the peg]... In some there was just a paste bottom as there was for the weavers or a small paper tube through some of them and they [the weavers and winders] thought they were in heaven if they got a small paper tube so that they had a guide. But it were exactly the same principle as skewering cops for the winders as it was for the weavers.

That’s it. So skewering a cop on to that machine was exactly the same as skewering it on to a shuttle.

R- That's right, yes.

Aye ... And the idea of that was to give you … Well, you tell me, that’d give you a bigger yarn package but there were other advantages as well, weren't there?

R - You’ve got to have this on a bobbin or otherwise… If you have a small package you're going to have less production because your labour is piecing ends more often. And if you took them with a smaller yardage on a bobbin you're not getting an even run when you come to make your beam. You have a end missing so that means that frame has to stop and another bobbin's to go in what we call the creel. Now then, when you’ve got this certain number of bobbins ready you take them up to what I’ve just spoken about, the creel. Now that's, I should say you could call that a triangular frame, wide at

(00)

t’front and coming narrow to the back headstock on what we call your beaming machine. Now, in that triangular frame you could hold up to five hundred of these wood bobbins. Now what they used to do, just put a wood peg through a hole in that bobbin and just hang it in these wood pegs which [are fixed on this triangular frame] And then the ends were took through to your headstock, individual ends everyone. It you put four hundred ends [bobbins] in there, you'd then four hundred ends to draw through to your headstock, and even them out with a comb. If you used an ordinary comb or just turn it upside down and your teeth are at t’top and they’d lay every end, individual end, into all of them. Then from there, what they do then is they'd go and get a beam, that's like a weaver’s beam, a large… Well, we haven’t explained the weavers beam, have we?

Aye. But don’t bother about that because we know what a weavers beam is. What we have to realise now is that we are talking about a larger version of the weaver’s beam.

R- Than the weavers beam.

That's it, yes.

(15 Min)

R - And what they do, they go and get this beam and put it in the headstock with two planks at each side you know, arms. They fit it into them two arms, it swivels up and down. Now underneath where this beam's fitting you’ve got a wood cylindrical barrel which, when you let your arms go, the wood centre which is between the two flanges on your beam rests on this wood barrel. Now that wooden barrel underneath you can either close it or open it which is for the width of your beam so that you haven't a lot at one end and nothing at the other. Now, everyone of them ends [from the creel] is took round that wood beam which we put in. Now why they had this wood thing underneath, this wood barrel, is so that you're getting a level, what we call a level yarn beam, no ups and downs in it.

That’s it. That's exactly the same as the press in front of the tape machine, under the weavers beam on the tape?

R- That's it. It works exactly the same but on a larger principle.

(350)

Exactly the same principle.

R - Now then, on that. They used have that machine up Stanley and them ends is coming through, they'd … To look at it, it starts at the back of that creel which I’ve spoken about, like a triangle. It'll be what happen six foot wide at t’back end. And you come down at the front to about two foot. All the ends is concentrated in that width at the front. And if you have four hundred ends in, there's four hundred ends turning on that beam at the same time, same tension's going on and everything. Now then, on all them ends which was put across and through that comb, you put a pin, each end had to he individually pinned. As soon as one of those ends broke, that pin would drop and automatically stop that machine. So the beamer has to find which end's broken in that creel, piece another to it and bring it through to the front again, put it in that comb and then start up again. And that's how you start and make a beam.

Now say, just for argument’s sake, one point strikes me there because what we’re talking about now, we'd better make it clear, is the old fashioned style of slow speed beaming. High speed beaming's exactly the same principle but more sophisticated, isn't it.

R - High speed beaming's exactly the same principle, they’ve still got to have a creel but they're in what I call a more fancier done up stage. It’s the same principle. And your headstock is exactly the same principle Stanley but it's more sophisticated.

That's it, yes. Now say you are doing, just for example we've got some beams to make to go on the tape, to make weavers beams and as you say, they probably have four hundred ends on them, it doesn't matter what ends they have got in … and they’ve got say twenty thousand yards on. Now, did you try, when you were making your bobbins did you try to make your bobbins somewhere near the length of what you wanted to put on your beam? Or how. Because you can foresee it arising where ... If all your bobbins were round the same length, just for argument sake you might have a set of bobbins on that hadn't run out when you’d finished one beam and if you put another beam in and start with those bobbins in that creel, because obviously you. can't threw all those away for waste, it means that they are all going to run out at somewhere near the same time and you're going to have to piece all those ends up in the middle of a beam .. Would that be done, would they all be pieced up in the middle of a beam?

R – No, because if you did that you’ve got all them knots coming up at the same time Stanley.

That’s it, yes. Or roughly the same time yes.

R - Now then what they did, in them days they knew yardage more or less what they could get on them bobbins. So the winder knew when she looked at her bobbin, that she might have fifteen thousand yard on that, that's enough. Now then, if they hadn’t a lot of work they could have watched them and said Right, there’s fifteen thousand yards on all them bobbins. But in the old days they’d to look through too many so you might have sixteen thousand on by the time the winder got to look to it. So what happened then you’d make a set of beams with fifteen thousand yards, you’d know there’d be that on. So a winder wouldn’t take one off that was short, you’d have ‘em over more than under you see. Now then, with this that had been left on them bobbins when they had finished making that beam, all they do is take them down to the bobbin frame again, piece up and start again so it didn’t waste no yarn.

(20 Min)

Those would go back on the bobbin frame and you'd wind on them as long as they were the same count.

R - Same counts of yarn, you’d wind on ‘em again.

I see, so that means that you didn't go on getting waste.

R – Didn’t go on getting waste.

That explains that. Can you tell me roughly how much yarn there’d be on a mule cop if it was twenties count?

R- On a mule cop?

Yes or give me a yardage for a mule cop for a certain count, can you give me a yardage?

R- I couldn’t Stanley, I couldn't, because you see, mules in the old days, were the same, you didn’t ever get mule cops identical shape and size. You might have had a slack band, [driving band to the mule spindle] therefore that'll give you a larger looking cop, but that cop's smaller actually, there isn't as much yarn on it.

It was softer yarn like …

R - You'd be softer wound on you see? Now then, we move from what we call the old mule cop Stanley.

Yes. Now I want to come on to that, but I’d just like to slip something in before then. We'll just go on forward with the weavers beams now, with the back beams ...

R - back beams.

We'll just go forward with them just for the moment. Because next, I want to bring you on to the difference in .. you know, when the change over came, and on to pirns and re-wound weft in a minute. Now, we've got this beamer now and was it usually a man or a woman? It was very often a woman…?

R- Usually a woman.

Yes .. my mother was a beamer and a funny thing comes in here you see?

R – Yes. But if it was possible, you wanted either a medium size woman or one taller. If you got a short one she were always playing about, she'd to have a buffet or a small set of steps to go up, and if she’d sommat at t’top of the creel that’d broken she’d have to keep going for the steps to go up and get to them up on t’top.

Well, It’s funny you should say that because I were just going to say to you …

R - Now in the old days Stanley, all these things were took into consideration.

Yes, what I was just going to say to you, my mother was a beamer at Victoria Mill at Dukinfield and later at Queen’s Mill and she can remember doing beams for Bancroft at Barnoldswick.

R - At Dukinfield.

Aye, in the old days. And she was not only short, she was crippled, she'd had polio in one leg. So now whether they had, whether there were two of them on a beaming frame, you know, and one were at the creel and one [on the headstock] I don’t know but she did use to beam in those days. I know when we first came to Barnoldswick she said that she remembered ...

R- It just depends the place you were at, in some places what we call the room man for the winders and beamers, he might gait that creel up for t’beamer. We used to have one here, she were short but she was a good beamer, she were always up and down the steps for her top lot you know or just above half way.

(500)

Aye, that’s it.

R – Then we’d another and she were tall, we thought she were tall you know, five feet nine, and it were very seldom she’d to have the doings you know, she’d strain herself to get this bobbin up on the top.

Aye, which weren’t necessarily a good thing. So anyway, the beamer now, our beamer has made a set of back beams. Well I mean, if they wanted two thousand four hundred ends in t’weavers beam, well that's six times four hundred. Aye.

R- Well, that's six beams at four hundred ends each. So right, I want a set of two thousand ends, so all I want is five four hundred ends beams. So you have five beams at four hundred which two thousand ends.

That's it.

R - And you know what I said, we were going to do a fifteen thousand yard set .. and we’ll say maybe 20's or 22s, 32's count of yarn. So all we do from there is take it into the sizing room and give them particulars to the sizers and then we work out what size we want on this for a start, either six per cent, ten per cent…

(25 Min)

Now then these days it seems to me that ..and from what I’ve read in these books of yours, about sizing. In the old days a lot more attention was paid to sizing than there is now. Am I right in saying that?

R - What can I say Stanley? In the old days it was a really highly skilled job.

That’s it. But would it he true to say that now we size to make warps weave, and in the old days they used to size for other reasons besides didn't they, like putting weight into cloth.

R- In the old days what you had got to size for Stanley was good weaving and weight.

Yes, that’s it.

R- Now weight was made by what we call china clay, that’d give you your weight, which were a terrible thing to in them days. Because this is where you got the biggest part of your dust and those bad chests.

Yes, you could bulk your yarn up by putting …[china clay in the size]

R – What’d give you your weight.

Yes. I've talked to Billy Brooks about that you know, he taped at Westfield for thirty five years and he said that it were terrible some of the stuff they put in.

(55O)

R- And that used to come from Cornwall.

Yes. And that was put in . In what way would bulking the yarn up like that pay? I mean, was the cloth sold by weight? I thought it was sold by yardage, wasn’t it?

R- In the old days what they did, they'd give you a piece, a construction of.. we'll just say for a figure, happen sixty four reed count and 62 picks per inch. You see I'm going off what we call our table count, that's when it comes off the loom and it's run over the cloth looking machine and ready to go out to the customer. He wants particulars as I’m going to give you now he might be wanting cloth at sixty four times sixty two.

That’s picks to the inch?

R- Sixty two is picks to the inch right? Now 64 is your reed count, and in them days they'd say, it might he 20's and 20s or 20s and 32s whichever your weft were, and it’d to weigh so much. [the two figures are the count of the twist and the count of the weft]

Ah. So that were part of the specification of the cloth.

R - That was part of the specifications in the old days,

Yes. Now they don’t do that now do they?

R- No they don’t do that. All you’ll get is ... the order now is for 64 by 62, 20s and 20s, and that's as far as it goes now. But they stated the weight in the old days that them pieces had to be.

Aye. Now tell me something, when they stated the weight that it ought to be, what was the reason for that? Say you were a cloth buyer, what reason would you have for saying what weight you wanted a certain construction of cloth to be? Have I put that question right?

R - Do you mean what advantage was there by buying it, by making particulars where there were weight included in it?

Yes. What advantage was there to the buyer?

R- Well, I can't really tell you Stanley, I were only feeling me way really in them days.

Yes. The thing that I’m trying to get at Jim is that if you use a different type of yarn…

R - Now if you think of china clay… China clay makes no difference to cotton, it doesn't improve your cotton. It didn’t worsen it any. So what you just asked me now I can’t answer you Stanley. Now I don't know whether they sold this cloth by weight or what, but it's no advantage to the cotton.

Yes.

(600)

R- Now the only other thing that I can see, it might have been .. You see facilities now for finishing are far different to what they used to be with more chemicals that’s come out, such as that. But as far as that, I don't know. But china clay were the worst thing that ever were put into the cotton industry for health reasons.

When they specified the construction of that cloth, when somebody put in an order for cloth they specified the actual construction, the count of the yarn and also they specified the type of yarn that they wanted as well didn’t they?

R- Yes.

Whether it were combed or super-combed or anything like that. Now, is it possible that the better the yarn, you know the more tightly it wore spun, the better the staple .. would that probably have been heavier than say a yarn that wasn’t as well spun? Would it have made a difference for a certain length of yarn? Would it be heavier if it was well spun and good yam than if it was say, poor yarn … The thing that I’m trying to get at is…

(30 Min)

I often wonder when I hear about some of the marvellous recipes that were used for taping in the old days, whether it was a way of the manufacturers trying to convince the buyer that he was getting a better quality of yarn then he actually was.

R- Well, you’ve put it more or less ... they might have done just that Stanley. That’s the only answer, 'cause as far as we go, china clay is nothing.

Yes. All they do is they're just bulking the yarn up, that's all.

R- It’s what I call bullshitting.

That’s it. Yes that's it.

R - But another thing Stanley, as some were done in the old days, suppose they wanted to cheat with yarn. Now supposing a customer wanted 32s twist, 38's weft. This fellow might put 40s weft in, or 42 counts of weft and china clay. And if he weighed the pieces they still go your weight.

That’s it, yes. I must say that that's the impression that I've always had about it you know about those weird and wonderful mixtures*s.

(650)

I appreciate that there were, that there were other reasons for being so particular about sizing than just making weight and bulk of yarn up but I mean, you know yourself, some of the weird and wonderful recipes that were used …

R – Yes. See, when we get on to sizing, sorts of things that they've used in sizing, sea weed, brown sugar, all such as this you know? It's amazing. And …

Well really, it’s a subject all on its own isn't it.

R- It is, it is specialised.

Just boiling size up is a subject on its own. Yes.

R- But as far as the china clay, it’s only a weight factor as far as I’m concerned.

Yes, that’s it. Whereas, now the sort of taping that we do now at Bancroft is nothing to do with weight or anything like that, all we're doing is producing, is putting strength into that yarn so that it’ll weave properly.

R- Yes. You're giving it elasticity, so as it’ll weave, there's stretch in it. And you get as much sago flour and tallow into that yarn as you can get in it. So as it has that elasticity. If you don’t have elasticity in you might as wall cut the warps out because they'll not weave, they’ve got to have give in them. Now, tapers in the old days used to be able to tell how much size they had on that yarn by feeling with their fingers. But you see, they’ve brought all these different things out which register what size is going on. {Many} tapers don’t mix their own size.

Yes. Like you'll see Joe now and then while it's running over he'll pick one strand out and he’ll pull it away from the beam.

R- He pulls it away from the beam to see how much strength it has in it.

Yes, and he can tell by the spring of it.

R- He can tell by the spring on it and how far it's going, if it’ll weave.

Yes, that’s it, yes.

R- That's the secret of sizing.

Now then, the different types of yarn, apart from the actual count of the yarn. Now, we are talking about mule spun yarn now. Now as I understand it, you tell me if I'm wrong, there were two main types of mule, there was a condenser mule .. and what was the other? I’ve forgotten.

R- There is twist way and weft way. Weft way is mule spun. Now that's the whole secret of soft spun yarn, that was made an your mules in the old days. It was nearly all mules. Now then, weft that you are getting, we’ll say today, you've a job to get mules, they’ve all been done away with

(700)

and it's what we call twist yarn. Now then, you could soon tell whether you’re dealing with what we call weft way, if you've got a strand of yarn .. you only need six inch, place it in finger and thumb each side and then just give it a twist and bring your finger toward you. Now you'll find that if it’s mule spun, it’ll split, with that thread of yarn is soft it'll split easy. All right, now then, if you want to find out if it’s twist yarn you’ll just take it in the opposite direction which is away from you. Mule spun to you, weft way by twist of your finger. Ring is away from you. And this is t’way they used to tell in the old days. Now then, by doing some counts mule spun which is making a certain type of cloth, if you don't put mule spun into some of them, like condenser mule, as soon as you come to cut that cloth .. When I say cut it I mean nick your selvedge .. but we haven't got on to cloth have we, selvedge?

No you are all right, you are all right.

R - You'll find that cloth’ll roll, it won’t lay flat. Now then, if it is mule it'll lay flat, but if it's twist way, condenser, it just curls. Mule’ll lay flat, twist way rolls.

When we are talking about twist way, is that what, ring spun yarn?

R- That’s ring spun yarn Stanley,

Yes that's like a later way of spinning. Ring spinning is the form of spinning which ousted the mule.

R- Which give you production.

Yes. But does it give you better weft?

R - It just depends on the type of cloth you're making Stanley. You see most of the cloth what we make today is hard spun yarn. Now there’s only a few mules about, and that’s what we use for softer types of cloth.

Tell me, what would you say is the difference between a hard spun yarn and a soft spun yarn.

R- Ah well, what they do, the spinner’ll take some twist out of that yarn to make it softer.

In other words not so tightly twisted up together.

R - Not so tightly twisted, when they come to spin it, it'll not be happen as tight as what normally they do it. They might take three, what they call twistings out of it to give it that softer feel . And yet it's ring spun twist because there isn’t mules about Stanley.

Yes, that's it. Tell me, is it true to say that if you took the same staple of cotton and the same count and spun it, the softer it is spun the less strength that yarn’ll have, the less tensile strength it'll have, the easier it'll pull apart?

R- Yes.

Now what .. I’ve heard you talk about break spun yarn.

R- Break spun?

Yes.

R – That’s a new sort of yarn which is done by, do you call it centrifugal force?

Yes.

R - It's what they call open end spinning. Now this raw cotton in put in a big basin .. Well I call it a basin, and the speed that that turns at, it gives you this ..

That makes your twist.

R - It gives you twist. And that comes down, oh .. say bottom of this here big container it’s in, they have a small tube at bottom and it just comes out at t’bottom of that like a thickish rope and it's broken down to certain thickness from that. But that's beautiful yarn, but it's soft. You wouldn’t get the same wear out of that as what you will out of ring spun because it is a bit softer. But it's what we call a good, clean level yarn. Now if you put break spun yarn beam and break spun yarn weft you’ve a beautiful looking cloth, level no bittiness about it but it isn't as hard wearing as ring spun yarn. But take the yarns of today Stanley, they aren't in t’same class as what they were in the old days. And they've altered that by buying different cottons from all over the world and in the mixing. Say before the war, going back oh long before the war, some of these spinners had never, wouldn't have changed the yarns for happen thirty year.

Yes so, I mean some of them’d never weave ... some of them would never spin anything other than American would they?

R- American you see. But now you might get a mixing of say one of Brazil, one part Nigerian, a small quantity of American if they put that in. There is India, Pakistan. This is why yarns to me these days aren’t half as clean and good now as they were in the old days.

Yes well, of course at one time they thought it was impossible to spin Indian didn't they. It was thought to be impossible. Well it probably was with the machinery they had then.

(40 Min)

R- Yes.

And apart from the type of cotton itself Jim, admittedly all the modern improvements like ring spinning, break spinning and all the rest of it have increased the productivity of the spinners but have they improved the quality of the yarns?

R- No. By my way of thinking, yarn quality has gone down. Spinners of today, all they are interested in poundage, the amount, the weight they can get off these machines. You see, in the old days when I've been talking about, they'd the same bands on mules I've been speaking about when we did us own up here. Now in the old days if there were two bands that were slack, them bands, they’d be put back. But now with ring spun they are done with a roller. Now they’ve only certain given times to go through and do them rollers. Now you get all sorts of wear on these rollers. Now that gives you what we call uneven yarn, thick and thin, thick thin which is bad for such as… more so for taping when you've that weakness in, with the strain it has to stand. And then you get your cloth looking bare in't shed with it. I've known us cloth at times has been that uneven it's given you a draughtboard effect.

Actually put a pattern in the weaving?

R – It’s actually put a square patterning in with some of it being in thicker places Stanley and it's off them rollers. It’s coming to the same fault every time.

That's it, a regular fault coming through with the weft.

R- A regular fault coming through all the time.

And coinciding with the construction of your cloth.

R- And on that you see. If you get a cop it might give you a yard of cloth and if you look at that yard of cloth on some of these yarns it will give you that draughtboard, thick and thin and it’ll be squared.

Yes, you’re actually putting a pattern in the cloth with the faults in the yarn.

R – Yes. If they asked you to put that pattern in by weaving it you’d have a job.

That's it yes. A good trick if you could do it. Aye. And now this yarn in the old days that used to be. It used to come in and the weft that went into the weaver used to be straight off the mule, the same cops would be used either for going upstairs to put on the bobbins to put on the beaming machine. Or they'd go into the shed to weave. If you wanted say 32s it didn't matter where you got it. There was no such thing as 32s for the beamers and 32s for t’weavers, it was the same yarn.

R – Same.

And exactly the same package, the difference was that the weaver put it straight on to the shuttle. That’s the way it worked isn’t it.

(850)

R- That's the way It worked. Now you see, what we're getting at now Stanley, this is why the weaver’s always had the rough end of the stick all them years. What you’ve just said then, think how many times that yarn has been handled before t’weaver gets to it. So as soon as it's left the spinner, some strength’s been taken out of it there .. It's come to your winder upstairs hasn’t it. From your winder upstairs, which she's put a strain on it, it's gone to your beamers who put another strain on it. When that beam’s ready to go to the taper and us here, we aren't what we call driven tape cylinders, our yarn drives the tape cylinders. So look at the strain that’s gone on it again from there. So by the time the weaver gets one weaver’s beam off us it can have been handled four to five times, five times in the old days, which is a strain, as each individual operative on each job has had it; and there has been five operatives had it before the weaver’s got it.

That's it yes. So in some ways there is an advantage in the way that we work nowadays in that we get the beams and they’ve come straight off the ring cop.

R - They've come straight off the ring cop you see.

Aye, they haven’t gone through the bobbin stage so that’s one less.

R- That's one less.

One less.

R- Now they, say with the equipment they have, they can miss out three processes compared with what they did in the old days.

Yes. So in actual fact those sets ought to be better when they come into us, these sets of back beams for the tapers really, if the quality of the yarn were the same they ought to be in a better condition than they were in the old days. Yes. Well now, the weft itself, now in the old days they were weaving on the loom with weft that was straight off the mule cop, which was straight off the mule. Now the way I understand it is that when they started to come onto the more loom system there was a demand for bigger yarn packages and for more reliable yarn packages.

R- Right.

Now this lead to rewound weft didn’t it?

R - Yes.

Now that’s what I’d like to get into now. Is getting to when rewound weft had started to come in and what were the advantages.

SCG/21 October 2002
6649 words




LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/5

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 14th 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.



Now this week I want to get stuck into the weft job a bit. We were just coming to it last week if you remember. Well , last week, a fortnight since we did last one. But anyway, we were just coming on to it then. All the time we have been talking about yarn up to now, it's all been mule spun, mule, mule weft coming in on cops. And then round about 1935 they started bringing in the more loom system, didn't they?

R - That's correct.

Now .. you just tell me whether I am right or whether I am wrong, but as I understand it before they could bring the more loom system in, and put weavers on to eight and ten looms, or in order to get them to accept that, they had to do certain things, and one of them was that they had to agree to slow the looms down a bit. And then the other they had to, in various ways, make it easier for the weaver to weave, didn't they? Like.,,.

R- Bigger package, which is weft.

Well. I were going to say, loom sweepers first, they had, they set loom sweepers on some of them, didn't they ? I know Ernie talks about going down to Westfield in 1932, and they set loomsweepers on then. And they had one

(50),

feller on with eight looms. So Ernie said it never came to anything there, and they did away with loomsweepers after about six months, and either put them on to weaving or else put them off. But evidently they'd brought them in with the idea of making it easier for the weavers. But anyway, as far as weft's concerned, they wanted to get a larger package, a larger yarn package but there's other advantages as well with rewound weft, isn't there? Now you tell me what they are. First of all tell us what exactly, what rewound weft is, what we are talking about.

R - Well, rewound weft we buy… What we are starting with now, mainly, is ring spun weft, which is the opposite way to what weft way is. It's a harder yarn, not so soft spun. Now then, when you get weft in ring spun you get it straight from t’spinners on what we call a ring tube, which was a big package on a bigger tube. The tube is only holding t’yarn on it which is taken off on what we call a coning machine. Now, correct? So we take it from there, we'll do this sharp Stanley, we take it from the coning machine to the rewinding machine.

Now just explain what you do on the coning, you’ve got ring tubes and then…

R We've got ring tubes so what we are doing now, we still can't take it from… We could do, we could take .. it's straight from packages, we get it from the spinners, give it to the winders, and let them put it on what we call

(100)

a Welsh hat pirn. But we can make that a more profitable business by taking it from ring tube from spinners to a coning machine. So what we are doing we are building that package up, actually from t’spinners to the winders. Is that clear enough?



A coning machine at Bancroft. The cones are wound onto packages at the front from the ring tube yarn yo can see on the machine. It is empty in this picture because it is weekend and it had been cleaned.

Yes. On a coning machine making it into a big cone.

R- On the coning machine. We are making it into a two pound cone, that means you've two pound of yarn on each cone.

That's it. Well, it'll only be a matter of ounces on the other ones. [ring tubes]

R - Well there's only ... That's correct. Now if you leave it on that ring tube from t’spinners it means that you are getting more piecing on your rewound weft which is what we call Welsh hat pirns.

And, and ... I know Welsh hat pirns used to get me going a bit in the first place, but it's Welsh hat, like a Welsh type hat.

R - Yes Hat yes.

On the bottom of it it's got metal ... rings

R - You have a metal ferrule on the bottom.

That's it.

R- Now you have your shuttles, you’re talking about one way of moving on to the eight loom system. Now there're a lot of things to do before we went on to eight loom system. Main thing is ... you started off on a eight loom system, the pulleys that they had on four and five looms was six inches. Now, if you'd put them on that five, six inch pulley on eight loom they'd had been run off their feet. They wanted to be able to keep up with the weft. So that's no game, you're going to lose actually not gain anything by doing it that way. So what you did in t’first place you put bigger pulleys on to them looms to slow them down that bit. Now you've also got to bear in mind

(150)

that you've got to either increase your shuttle size for your bigger package, or you're going to have the same shuttle on that loom . Now that's going to make things more difficult if you happen to open that shuttle box and put a bigger shuttle in to give it more space between when that shuttle is entering in to your healds and reeds. Now if you don't give it so much, that shuttle is going into [hitting] them healds and reeds before it goes into what we call the shed so that it can pass between your warp threads. Now if you don't do that you're going to have more

(5 min)

breakages on your warp side.

But in point of fact a lot of, a lot of looms weren't reslayed were they?

R - No. They didn't, there were no difference, all as, all as they did, they increased the shuttle size Stanley. And they didn't increase what we call the shuttle box.

That's it. There was, there was an extension brought out for shuttle boxes weren't there ...

R - That's right.

... that you could put in, another three inch on the shuttlebox. Because these shuttles that we are using now, or that we went on to, were a longer shuttle, they were perhaps a couple of inch longer than the other shuttles and the thing is that .. If you increase the size of the shuttle box you make it far easier to time that loom, you give the tackler more latitude, don't you?

R - That's right, you give him more scope for when that shuttle's going into its weaving shed, of the shed being thoroughly open.

That's it, yes.

R – Now, if you put a bigger shuttle in there that loom's got to be timed exact, and it's very difficult is that really.

(200)

And I think I am right in saying that biggest part of the looms that we have here at Bancroft never were extended, were they?

R – No, they didn't want them extended here.

Ah, yes. So, this is something that I've gone into with Ernie actually ... So that's another reason why, in many ways the old tacklers with 140 looms with weavers on three and four loom system, had it a lot easier than tacklers now have it with 70 looms, and weavers on ten loom system. Because for a start off the weavers had more time to do bits of things for themselves ..

R - Well this is what we've talked about before Stanley. What we are talking about, what we've just mentioned now is weavers, what we called weavers, in the old days, when they could tell a tackler what were wrong with that loom, they couldn’t do the job but they knew what were wrong with it. So it just meant going to t’tackler and saying they’d this wrong. Tackler knew straight away what he were looking for. But not now. This is why it is so much more difficult tackling on Lancashire looms these days, because you haven’t that type of weaver that's at t’top of their weaving.

You know, that's something that we'll come back to later.

R - But as we were talking about shuttle Stanley .. why you've got to make it a bigger shuttle is we want a bigger package so as that loom is going to run that much longer for the weaver, he is not going to start that loom as many times in a day. Now, as we were talking before, we got a package from t’spinners before which was mostly mule spun, and you'd only have a six inch package, and happen three quarter of an inch diameter. Now then, we wanted to increase that by at least another inch and a half in length and from three quarters of an inch diameter we went to an inch and a eighth in diameter. So you can tell the difference in running time between the six

(250)

inches we talk about and the seven and a half inch pirn.

What difference did it make, Jim, say on 44's?

R - Well on 44s now, at t’loom speed now that we are running at, 180 picks per minute average .. a 44's cop in the old days would have run roughly nine and a half to ten minutes. Now then we've increased that to 16 minutes which is a lot of weaving, a lot of yardage, so it gives that weaver another six minutes time to follow those other two or four loom, which we’ll talk about when we increase to ten loom.

(10 min)

Now is there any advantage as well in the way that .. that yarn package has been wound, is it any better than mule spun, or rewound you know straight off the mule, why is it better?

R - Yes a lot better. Yes. Because there's no, what we call broaching a cop, or skewering a cop. All we used to put that on to were, were winders .. what we call a winders cop, it's mostly a hard cardboard tube with a ferrule at the bottom and its got a hole straight through t’middle of that, and that’ll be seven and three quarter inch into that. Now your ferrule at t’bottom, you'll find that the bottom side of your ferrule'll be edged, so that edge catches in two clips in your shuttle and is held firm. So all it means is .. you lift your shuttle peg up, just drop your pirn wound weft straight on to the top on it, shove your shuttle peg down, and that automatically fastens itself in them clips.

Whereas in the old days the cops have to be held on by friction on the peg. In fact they'd be actually…

R - On the peg. They either opened it or shut it, according to the tube size they were on. But same as now, you'd trouble with cops slipping off that shuttle peg, but a pirn won't slip, ‘cause it's fastened in with them two

(300)

clips at t’bottom, with your ferrule at t’bottom being edged over to fit into that clip. This is what I'm saying, there were no clips in the old shuttles in the old days, there were just ordinary shuttles.. where you drop your weft cop in, on top of your shuttle peg and that were it. But now they've these shuttle pegs, and a clip at t'back of the shuttle peg, which holds that ferrule with your weft pirn on. And in the old days they'd to, they had not what they call self threading shuttles. They'd to take a bit off that weft, put it in the front of the shuttle and draw it through the eye of the shuttle, by breathing in. Now occasionally if you took a deep breath, part of that weft which came out of that eye in your shuttle'd touch the back of your throat. And it’s a dirty job, what we used to call .. kissing the shuttle. Well all it means is weaver were threading that shuttle, and only way as you could do it were drawing it in, by your own breath.

And were the dangers of that realised while they were using it? You know, did anybody ever try and bring any system out for threading a kissing shuttle without .. kissing it?

R - Yes you could .. yes, but it took longer Stanley.

Yes that's it.

R- And they -were losing money by doing it that way. Now if you, if you .. we are talking now, what you just mentioned, we're going back to the old days Stanley. Now the way it was .. a weaver had to make a certain average or she'd lose them looms, and there were always somebody in them days keen to get them looms. So if she threaded them by a small hook, which it’d just go through that eye, and then she'd have to grope about for t’end of that thread to pull it through and this took her far, a lot longer than what we call kissing t'shuttle and drawing it in by your own breath.

So in other words the systems that they did have for threading a shuttle without actually kissing the shuttle were no good because the weavers wouldn't accept them because it knocked the average back.

R - .. Time waster

That's it, yes.

R - They'd accept anything which were a time saver. Self threaders were brought in when they went on more looms because you could just get hold of that thread

(350)

as soon as you, you used to take hold of that thread and soon as you were pushing your .. cop down into your shuttled that thread automatically goes into that groove in t'shuttle top and through your eye, and it's threaded.


So when did they fetch self threading shuttles in?

R - Self threading shuttles ...

I'm not talking about when they made the kissing shuttle illegal, I'm talking about ...

R - No. self threading shuttles were brought in into this place in 1948, just after the war.

Yes ..

R - Now this is when they started increasing more, on more loom system. Because 'Britain's strength were in Lancashire’s thread' they said, just after that.

15 min

Aye, that's it. So where, before the war, say between 1935 and 1939, well during the war as well to some extent .. where they were talking about the more loom system, they were actually talking about an eight loom system. They were talking about eight loom system, usually.

Yes. Not a ten loom as we’re on now.

R - No because if you, we are talking about the system which, as I'm going back in the old days, like up to say ... What I call old days is from, say, 1935 to just before the war. On that system then they were on 4's and 5's here. A good weaver had six but if they'd had gone on to eight there’d have been a hue and cry with the Union. It hadn't much strength in them days, but we’d seen one all out position with cotton, and they didn't gain anything by it, they lost actually.

Now what do you mean you've seen one ‘all out position’ with cotton?

R - When the cotton workers went on strike.

When were that?

R - Nineteen .. I should say about 1929, 28 or 29. And they didn't come off they didn't come off any better by it.

What was that strike about, Jim?

R - Well ... wages as usual. There were shocking wages in them days, Stanley.

Oh yes, I’d agree with that, I’ll agree with that.

R - Terrible. I know I were just about, well nearly coming to finishing at school then you know. I were caught up in t’strike.

That's it.

R- Accidentally with going into , to me pals that were working in cotton. And .. when I come walking out with them the road is fully of booing people for being

(400)

in at work. [This was at Sough Bridge Mill] But .. but they didn't .. it didn't make no difference Stanley. This is what I say about these times you see, and this is why our cotton is in such a state now.

No, that's something that we are quietly going to get at , that's something I shall quietly get towards. Now, on with , what's rewound weft?

R - Yes.

So, in actual fact, in theory, rewound weft was a good thing for the weaver.

R - Oh, best thing, one of t’best things that's came out for the weavers, a money spinner I should say, for the weaver.



Pirn winding on to welsh hat pirns from rewound weft on cones. Better quality control than winding direct from ring tube.

And yet it was brought in really to enable the manufacturers to get them on to more looms and get more cloth out of them.

R - That's right.

And when they went on to the more loom system, were they still on piece rate as well?

R - They were still on piece rate, yes.

Yes. So in other words they weren't getting any bonus or anything, if they didn't draw, if they didn't take a piece into the warehouse during the week, they didn't take any money home.

R- They didn't get any wage if they didn't book a piece in at Friday

That's it.

R - .. They'd get no money.

That's it. So even when they went first of all from four looms on to the more loom system, they were still on piece rate.

R- They were still on piece rates.

That's it. Now then, another thing started to come in then. I mean, we’ve talked about mule weft and, and ring weft .. When did ring spinning start to come in? Was there ring weft when you first started?

A - Yes.

Was there a lot of it about, you knew, were people using it?

R - Well it's .. we're talking about .. it just depends what cloth you're wanting that yarn for Stanley. Now you take ring weft, ring weft is your harder spun weft than what mule spun is. Now, in t’days as we've just been talking about there was a lot more soft weft used than what there was hard spun. Because you used to make in them days a lot of Winceyette, which we call a raising cloth. We used to make a lot of two and two twills which were made off mule yarn.

When you say 'raising cloth' that's when they put it through .. well they call it a stenter don't they, or a stenter actually afterwards and raise the nap on it.



An old teazel raising gig for woollen cloth at Helmshore museum. This is a much earlier version of the stenter machine Jim is talking about but did the same job. When the drum, covered with natural teazels was rotated against the cloth it plucked the threads and raised a nap on the cloth.

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R - And it's raised .. what we call nap, it brings t’nap up, on it you see?

That's it yes, that's it.

R- Now then .. biggest part of this stuff such as Winceyette and Two and Two Twills .. this were a better Winceyette really, that’s all, it was made into nightwear, pyjamas, nightdresses

Aye and for old Union shirts.

R - All sort of stuff you see? Now, there weren't such as this non-inflammable, they'd nothing to treat it with. Now that trade's gone.

Yes. Now there's one little point that comes into me mind there ...

R - So as we .. wait a minute, as we were talking about ring spun, it’s just, there was still ring spun, don't get me wrong Stanley, there always has been ring spun, but it just depends what mill .. one might use more mule than ring, because they’d want it for a different cloth.

Yes. But now if you were buying .. say we are talking about, just for argument sake, about 1930. Say you were buying ring spun then. We are still

(20 min)

on the old kissing shuttle with short package in. When you bought ring spun weft then, did you buy it on ring tube and put it on to a small package yourself or did you buy it, did the spinners rewind it on to a smaller package, and send it to be

R - Spinners spun it on to a package there, which we've talked about, on tube weft, with just this little tube

Aye ... Like paper tube

R - Paper tube, which is .. [what the ] yarn were built up on. And then after you'd come to the end of that inch tube, paper tube, you’d have to skewer that yourself.

Yes. So in other words they'd .. when they spun it, when they did their actual ring spinning operation, they wouldn't spin it on to ring tubes and then rewind it on to paper bottoms?

R - Oh no, them were spun straight off, off mules.

They'd spin it straight on to .. Eh?

R - They were spun straight off mules on to these packages.

Yes, but I'm talking about if you were buying ring ..

R - Oh if you were buying ring they'd do it .. it's in a similar way Stanley but on a ring frame.

That's it, yes, that's what I'm talking about, because .. obviously there weren't pirns then, there weren't Welsh hat pirns and clips in the shuttles and what not, so what they'd do ..instead of spinning it on to a ring tube, and then winding it on to a paper bottom cop, they'd spin it straight on to a paper bottom cop, just the same as if it were on a ring .... frame.

R - Just the same, that's right, for us.

Yes. So in those days then, when they were ring spinning, unless they were spinning that for the beamer, it’d be ring spinning on to paper bottoms, you know, making yarn packages

R – Now, there's… Well you still spun, you could… you'd have frames Stanley for .. what we call cop and they'd also have frames for ring tube.

That's it, yes.

(500)

R - Because .. even going back in them days, Stanley, there were honest people and decent machinery. You take Leesona’s, they'd been going since 1900s. Now then, what they do you see they, they could rewind off a ring tube in them days, with Leesona machines.

So some people'd be rewinding on to t’plain paper tube that went right up the middle.

R - That's right, you can.

Now we still get some of, well we used to do

R - Well we used to get some of that, you see.

We used to get some condenser

R - We used to get condenser on a wrap paper through tube, right to the top. Now they found out .. you’re starting with that, some'd be spiralled, some of this here, it had a, like happen every inch it would have a, kind of a ring in this hard cardboard, and you might finish up with thirteen of these rings, on this tube. Now that were all right, because that held your yarn fairly firm on that tube. Now others they got a different idea, and they put it on a dimpled tube, what we call a dimpled tube. Now that weren't as satisfactory as what these thirteen ring tubes were. Some, because these dimples were a bit dear and t’rings were dear, they'd still spin on to ordinary plain tube, and that were dynamite. Because you'd nothing on that tube only pressure with opening your [shuttle peg]

Paper tube ? Yes.

R - ... Weft peg, that spring in t'peg of your shuttle, you had to keep opening it and shutting it for this type, and you'd open it that far that it sometime split tube and let it all go.

Because the thing is that the yarn package could fly off the tube when the…

R - That's what it did, with being nothing there it just pulled straight away. As soon as you've put your first or second pick in, that tube’d come completely off. And you were fortunate if it didn't make you a mess.

And one more little thing about that in them days, it's something that Ernie mentioned the other night, it's just, I’m just really checking now. Ernie said the other night that when they were kissing shuttles with mule cops, he said that you didn't need any rabbit fur in the shuttles.

R - Well you didn't Stanley, no, no, you didn't. You see, once you start with rewound weft Stanley, you've machines which you can set .. Now you don’t get all them cops, no matter what anybody says, same diameter. You'll get it somewhere near, if you follow what I mean. Now then, if you set your stall

(550)

out for, say, a pirn cop of a, an inch and a eighth .. Now, if you come with an inch you've a bit of play in that shuttle, haven’t you? So you've got to have something which will keep that tension on that yarn that's coming off, flowing off, you don’t want it just coming off at any do ... or you are going to spoil the cloth. So you've got to have something which will control that weft yarn. So you put fur in, fur in your shuttle, which way your yarn

25 win

is coming off that pirn, either left handed or right handed, and that'll control it, it'll tighten it up so as that there's no slack pirn, no slack weft threads going into that cloth, or otherwise you'll have lost your weft, all along that cotton.

Ernie were telling .. this actually, it’s just light entertainment this, but Ernie were telling the other night .. Actually it wasn't on the tape, when he was tackling at Stew Mill at County Brook they were weaving some stuff there, and the weft that they were weaving with was .. I think, it must have been some special weft, and it was three fold, two were cotton and one was elastic. And he said “You’ve never seen anything like it” he said “it was, it was flying out wrapping itself round knocking on lever he said even the shuttle". He said they had some fun with it.

R - You get some now Stanley, which is done for bandaging, crepe.

Ah, it's like corrugated, yes, aye.

R- It's .. yes. That's difficult to control.

Springy .. Aye.

R - Yes. That's t’same, same type of thing.

Yes. Oh he said some of the weird, wonderful things they had to do, they finished up they had to wrap string round the slay by the shuttle ...

R - Yes. As long as ... Yes. You've got to control it somehow.

Yes. That was what it was for, the string was to control your weft, that's all, he said it was flying out in bunches as it went into the box and come out again. Anyway that's .. Now, we come on to something now which I find very interesting. Now I must just tell you a little bit of history now, which you know more about than me, but it's just to get you going ..

R- Go on

If you start to read the books about ... Well, really, the reasons why the Lancashire cotton industry had such a big decline .. one of the things that is brought up very often and I think by people who really haven’t studied the job properly, is the fact that the Northrop loom was invented, the Northrop automatic loom was invented in 1896 I think the date was. Or it first started to came into general use in America in 1896, the patent was taken out and they started to manufacture. And in about 19 .. shortly after 1900,

(600)

I think it was about 1905, the British Northrop Loom Company, which of course was an offshoot of the American company, started up at Blackburn then, that works at Blackburn. And so, by the turn of the century, the automatic loom was available in Lancashire, and one of the reasons that's been put forward, as I say I have me doubts about it but there again I am questioning, one of the reasons that was put forward as to why the Lancashire cotton industry had had a recession that they had, was the fact that they never modernised fast enough, they didn't re-invest in new machinery and install automatic looms which would have made them more profitable, and enabled them to keep up with the markets. Now just recently it has been pointed out, there is an American I've forgotten his name now, done a very good book about the Lancashire cotton industry. And he points out that in America the automatic loom was used, and in effect they had exactly the same problems that we have, or had, irrespective of the fact that they had modernised, you see, and put the automatic looms in. Now .. go back now to when you first started to become aware about what was going on in the industry, you know, '35 to the beginning of the war, to what extent were automatic looms being used then, and you tell me, just imagine that you.. I know that you would always have liked to have been a mill owner with plenty of capital .. what would your attitude had been towards scrapping what would appear at first sight to be perfectly good Lancashire looms weaving perfectly good cloth.. how would you have weighed it up, going on to automatics? But first if all, tell me, when did you first come across automatics, you know, when were they first being used?

R- Well, I can remember automatics being used at Jimmy Nelson's back in 1930, 1929.

That's Jimmy Nelson's at Nelson, in Valley Mills. 19 .. ?

R - Nineteen twenty nine.

Twenty nine. And what were they, they'd be weaving that Lustrafil then, wouldn't they? Yes.

R - That's right.

Aye. Yes. how about automatics on cotton. We're talking, when we're talking about automatics in those days we’re talking about Northrops really, aren't we?

R - Yes, you are not talking about such as what we are on with now, Saurers, Rutis, all these fancy jet looms, and such as that.

Yes. We're talking about ..

R – We are talking about Northrops, which we got in Lancashire which is an offshoot off the Americans, isn't it? Now then, when we look, talking back in them days Stanley, you're talking back of a period when weavers were plentiful, aren't you? Industry, all throughout Lancashire area was cotton, there

(650)

(30 min)

was very little engineering. Now if anybody wanted, wanted engineering, there were a few left this area in 1936, 1935, when things were getting a bit tight, and went down to a place called Coventry, which were motor industry. Now then, I'll take t’boss here, W E Nutter, I don't think he ever thought that there'd be a shortage of weavers. Now, he could produce as much cotton as he wanted with the old Lancashire looms that he had, Stanley. He always had labour which were cheap, so what's good of him modernising when he can get all t’cloth he wants with Lancashire looms which is in this place. And there were always labour for that shed. You take it here, there were between 400 and 500 here, before the war. And people not working but waiting on work. So why should he modernise Stanley? He'd also nobody to follow him, his son wasn't interested in t’cotton industry. Now, you take it from there Stanley, if he's nobody to follow him, he is not going to spend all his money on Northrop looms. What's the good when he can produce as much cotton as he wants, with t’cheap labour that he's got, no point in it.

Have you any idea how much a Northrop'd be in them days?

R - I haven't a clue, Stanley.

No, it's right, that doesn't matter.

R - It might be in Pitman’s. I’ll soon check on that.

Aye, see. if you can find out for me, it'd be useful.

R - Soon check on that. But this is way these bosses, I'm, I'm talking about this area, looked at such things Stanley ...

Would you think that that’d be a fairly general point of view?

R - I should think that’d be a fairly general point of view. Now then, change over came as soon as war broke out. Wars as they'd had before, there were never the scale of bombing that went on, like they did in t’second world war were there? So what they did, they moved these industries out of the Midlands into such places as where we are now, Barnoldswick or round this area.

That's the Rover Company in to Calf Hall and Bankfield, that's it.

R- That's right.

Sough Bridge, that were Rover Company as well.

R - Now then .. industry then, as far as cotton's concerned, is on the way in, because labour was taken out of these cotton mills in some areas... they'd only a certain amount of labour left. The other labour who went out of there, and they went into these other industries, into such as Rover Company where they .. which were doing aircraft engines weren't they? Now then, they looked at it straight away and think "What fools we've been when there's jobs like this”. And where they clogged away in the old days on four and five loom to earn the bit of pay they got. Things have so vastly changed

(700)

now, Stanley, and due to the bosses own faults. They thought in the old days if they were providing you with work, that was as far as it went with the bosses.

I think that's a very good point, Jim, I’ve never really heard it put like that before, but I think you've just about put it in a nutshell there. They were actually ... that, because really that was the attitude, wasn't it. The manufacturer was actually doing you a favour by letting you work.

R - By letting you work at that firm. And that's what it amounted to. And this is why people, you can say what you like, good bosses breed a good work force, bad bosses breed strong Unions and a bad work force. And this is what policy was in the old days. We are not taping, are we?

You what?

R - Are we?

Of course.

R - Oh in that case That's my ...that’s just what I think of t 'textile industry.

Yes. No I think, I think that's a very good point that, though ... You've, you've condensed something there into a nutshell for me. I think that that was .. And when you come to think of it, there is another thing about it and all. I should think it'll be true to say that the cotton industry really, was a very .. it was a very fragmented industry, and a very parochial industry. When I say that, there were a lot of small family firms. I mean, I count Nutters as a small family firm, you know

R - But, let me break in there, you take Nutter, Stanley. Before the war, Nutters along with the others were all combined in 2,500 looms, which is a lot of looms.

Ch yes, that's James, W E and D, and Nutter Brothers. Yes.

R - Yes.

And ... That's something just in passing. Now, that's another thing just in passing, something I found out the other day that I hadn't realised That when this mill opened, in 1920 or whenever it was, ac ...

35 min

R - Twenty one . Go on.

.. I haven't actually got it nailed right down

R - But he started up, first time he started up and stroked over were 1921. [March 13th 1920 actually]

Oh, there you are. James Nutter were actually still weaving down in Bankfield

R - Bankfield Shed.

So who started this?

R - This was starting with one of the other brothers, Wilfred Nutter's brother Rupert, he started this going.

Now was he one of the Nutter brothers the firm of Nutter Bros?

R - He was ... Nutter Bros. Yes. Now then, families don’t see eye to eye. Rupert fell out with Wilfred and so forth, eventually Wilfred wanted a bigger place, they'd happen have 400 loom in one place in Bankfield which were a big shed then, another 300 somewhere else .. But Wilfred wanted, wanted to

(750)

get equivalent of as near 1200 loom as he could in one place. Now, somehow or other he heard that Rupert were wanting a move, which were ideal for him. So what he did, he .. naturally bought this place, and he were on you know, and Rupert moved out of here and went to Grove Mill at Earby.

So, actually Rupert started here first.

R - Rupert were the first to start weaving in here.

Aye .. because James died didn't he? James died in about 1916 or in 1918 ..

R - Yes, the old chap. Yes.

And actually James Nutter started to build this place, did he ?

R - Yes.

But it was Rupert that moved in, Nutter Bros. that moved in.

R - It were .. ah, Nutter Bros. You'll hear of Nutter Bros. now, which is at Read. They moved, they moved .. Nutter Bros. moved out of here to Grove Mill at Earby, then they moved back to Pickles's, a part of Pickles's , and, and they moved from there into Wellhouse Mill, and then they were took over in Wellhouse Mill, and then they moved to a place at Read, Friendship Mill which runs as Nutter Bros. now.

Oh, it still runs as Nutter Bros. ?

Under?

R - It is still Nutter brothers.

Yes. So .. well let's get back to, we'll get back to the Northrops anyway. So .. we're in a position .. Oh, that's another thing, that's another thing as well. Is it possible to run a Northrop automatic loom on ... mule cop weft?

R - I've never heard of it Stanley. I've never, I’ve never heard of it.

No, one of the things, the reason I ask you that you see, I’m ignorant about it, the reason I ask you is that, another reason that has been put forward, I think this is a fallacy myself actually .. but another reason for the, another reason why the Lancashire mill owners didn't go on to the Northrop loom in a big, way was said to be the fact that in order to run a Northrop loom efficiently, or run it at all ...

A - Eh, just look what time it is? .. Go on, carry on.

... They had to .. have ring spun weft. And they said that one of the reasons why the Northrop wasn't taken up was because there weren't enough, ring spindles. Well, I can't see that, because if the demand had been there, there'd have soon been more ring spindles.

R - They'd had .. well, as far as what you're talking about Stanley, I'm thinking a bit the same way as you.. I've had nothing to do with Northrops but they’d gone so far with a Northrop looms hadn't they? There's no reason why they couldn't go a bit further and find out why mule, if that were the case, wouldn't weave on a Northrop loom. But you see

[This was before I did the work on condenser spinning at Spring Vale at Haslingden and when I went in there I found that the mules were spinning straight onto Northrop pirn for use in Hardman's own weaving sheds so this proved that mule could be used on Northrop looms.]

That's it.

R- In them days Stanley we forget there were a lot of jacquard looms weaving,

(800)

(40 min)

a lot of fancy weaving, which they hadn't got round to doing on such as Northrops in them days, there were sheds full of jacquards you know.

Yes. So a Northrop in them days were really a plain loom.

R - A plain loom. Yes. All that they were for, that Northrop, were to get cloth off faster than a Lancashire loom.

That's it, like say sheeting or something like that. Aye, that’d be ideal wouldn't it, for sheeting looms or something like that.

R - It'd be ideal, you see? Yes. .. Place at Cotton Tree, which is near Colne, that used to have a shed full of jacquard looms. Marvellous designs on, on cloth, Lions and Tigers. All this stuff used to be exported back to India, really.

Like a jacquard’s like a very very complicated dobby, isn't it, it's a very similar thing like?

R- Yes. You'd think .. for your, for your pattern work you'd think you were putting a, a sheet of music into one of these pianos that plays on its own.

Yes.

R - It's putting t’same patterns, it's the same idea Stanley.

Yes, I've seen the looms and they have all the strings coming out of the healds, don't they?

R - Yes, that's right, it works on your peg systems which moves your, what they call fingers up and down.

That's it, yes.

R - Which is only a big type of heald, which we’ve spoken about before.

Yes, aye. Aye, they could be dozens and dozens of them couldn't there on't jacquards?

R - There you think you're walking under a .. one flap of a tent, the way it used to hang down from this gearing at the top.

That's it, yes. I've never actually seen a jacquard but I've seen the photographs of them. Aye.

R - Oh- Yes, there's many, yes my sister used to weave them. But you see that's only thing they hadn't Stanley, they hadn't come into that then with Northrops, it were just a faster producer of the ordinary plain cloth. But as we were talking before, you see, there were all this labour about and it were cheap labour. I might have been the same in the old days Stanley, I don't know, all that labour about, I don't think I’d have been as rotten a boss as some of these were. And yet world war II changed all that outlook of people in the Lancashire area Stanley. They found out that they were, they were doing less work and drawing more money in such as engineering, aircraft industry, and they weren't as browbeat with the bosses.

Which started to put labour at a premium.

R- Which started to put .. now anybody that came out of the forces that had been in cotton .. and you used to go, like, to the unemployment .. make arrangements, either you wanted to go back to your own job with your own firm, or you wanted another job. Take meself when I come out, I said no, I want a fresh job, you know? And then when he said gasworks, "I have a job at t'Gasworks", he froze me, I thought Well, I’d better get back to textiles!

That's it. Aye.

R - And they were only too keen to get you back in textile, because there were that many leaving.

Yes. Now, apart from automatics there were one change that was made in most sheds, I'm not talking about places with sheeting looms and things like that .. but there was, tell me if I'm right at not, was there a tendency to, towards wider looms? Say from the war period onwards?

(850)

R - Throughout these years Stanley, I've listened to all sorts of tales ..”We’ve no orders for narrow cloth, we'll have to get some broad looms” It's all right, we ship 60 narrow ones out and bring in 40 wider looms.

That's them 56's we have. Yes.

A - Yes. It's all right, that, them looms run for a period of happen 12 months. Same thing apply “Why, we are short of orders for these broad ones and plenty for the narrow 40 inch” But it's too late, we've shut [got rid of] 60 narrow ones. Admittedly you can put a narrow cloth in a broad loom, but you'll have to pay for it.

Because the weaver is paid on reed space?

R - On reed space you see.

That's one of the things that comes into what they're paid.

A - So actually they are losing money, aren't they? I've heard this for years Stanley and same thing carries on to these days now. It can come one twelve months broad cloth, next twelve months there is nowt for broad looms, they want narrow cloth. This is why; there’s been no stable demand for cloths in textile industry. And as I was saying to you just now, labour was plentiful and they only stuck it because there was nothing else. Now then, when you get into another industry they'll not have such things as this, being short of work. Because there is nothing more horrid to work at, Stanley, than not being certain whether that job is secure or not.

Yes, that's the great, that's the great ...

R - And textile industry's never been secure.

Yes, I were just going to say that, the great thing about textiles, I mean, nobody ever knows from one month end to the other ..

R- No.

So, if there wasn't a big move to wide looms now, when this shed was first put in, I think .. what was it? Eleven fifty two looms it had in But yet during the war they were still full up to the walls but it were only 857, were it, that it had in the shed? Now what had made that difference? Was it the size of the looms or the spacing?

R - Well .. I don't know what period you're talking about Stanley, you see?

Well, up, to the beginning of the war

R - Now then, do you remember ., I don't know whether you knew it or not but they got paid for storing looms. Did you know that?

No.

R - Yes they did, they got paid for storing looms.

From, from places that had been .. [closed down]

R - Not only that, say here they'd 1152 loom hadn’t they? They couldn't run 1152 loom during the war, they weren't allowed so much cotton. So they were allowed so much off the government for them looms being stopped. Correct?

Yes. Yes.

R- Now then, W,E&D’s shed which was a part of, which was at Wellhouse Mill, but it was still part of W.E. Nutter which run Bancroft Mill, they'd looms, oh happen say 1130 down at Wellhouse Mill. Now then, they'd no intentions of going back in that mill after the war. So a big number of them looms was brought from there and stored at the top of looms here.

What, stacked up?

R - Stacked up on top of other looms, in this place, which [looms] they were paid

(900)

(45 min)

for again. This is why. Now then, why you've dropped in looms is .. because when you started what we've been on about they come with more looms, eight loom system, there was an increase in that after, say 1948, where they started ten loom. Now that altered spacing.. Now there used to be in this shed 36’s, 38's, 39's, 40’s, 42’s, 44’s, 45’s, 55’s and 60 inch looms. It's all right, first move they did was they moved the 55's and the 60 inch. which we have just been talking about, broad looms.


SCG/29/10/2002
7987 words




LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/06

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON AUGUST 29th 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


So this week we're going to , we'll just retrace our steps a bit, we’ll go back a bit, and go back to when you were, you’d come here, you’d started knotting and you'd gone on to drawing and this is fetching us up to what, what would it be when you were drawing? About 1936 would it be?

R- Nineteen thirty six,

Aye, that's It. So 1936 you are here at Bancroft with 1155 looms in.

R - Eleven fifty two.

Eleven fifty two, I'm sorry Jim.

R- Straight, straight up 1152.

Aye, fifty two. And were most of the cloth .. Now, before we, I’m starting wrong again, Am I right in thinking that the biggest part of what they’d be weaving here then would he pure cotton, it’d be cotton?

(50)

R – It’d be cotton, It were all cotton in them days Stanley here. Spun only came, what we call spun, only came after the war here.

When you say spun, what do you mean?

R- Artificial, man made fibre.

Ah. And you call that spun like do you?

R- Spun yarn, yes.

Aye, that’s it, yes.

R - But it, properly it's artificial yarn. Man Made.

And where were most of the cloth going that were woven at Bancroft then? Do you know?

R – Well, biggest part were going to… we did a lot of two and two twills, which were for the Australian trade. And .. I didn’t bother much with cloth and that side Stanley in them days but I know all the two and two twill went to Australia. T’other .. a lot of our main [demand] were for such as Winceyette, two and two twill were used in this country for nightdresses, but like we've said before, that trade's gone now.

Aye, with flame proofing. [A raised cloth like Winceyette caught fire very easily and there were many accidents caused by wearing a nightie in front of an open fire.]

R- With flame proofing you see.

How many sorts would they have in the shed then, any idea?

R- Well we'll just start off. They’d 36 inch looms, 38 inch looms, 41 inch looms, 42 inch looms, 44 inch looms, 46 inch looms, 55 inch looms and 60 inch looms. What they used to call 60 inch was a loom that was an inch short of being what they called a sheeting loom. If they’d had another inch on that loom they’d have had to pay them sheeting prices.

(100)

And how much more was that?

R- Probably happen a penny or twopence on the wage difference which added up in them days.

Aye. When you say a penny or twopence on the wage, what do you mean? You don't mean a penny at the end of the week, you know …

R- A penny or twopence on a piece, if they'd two pieces off they might have fourpence difference or something like that.

Ah, is that all?

R- Yes, but you think, in those days fourpence, you could have a packet of Woodbines for that. Which for a fellow weaver, that were…

Yes, you are right. Now then, the management here then, who was the management, what were the staff in the office?

R- Staff in the office then…

This in 1936.

R- Which consisted of a preparation manager, a weaving manager…

Who was the preparation manager?

R - Stanley King.

King? Aye,

R- What we call a weaving manager which were Vernon Nutter. Then clerical staff was .... There was Tom Broughton he were the junior clerk, a fellow called Walker, I just forget what his first name were. Anyway it weren't Robert, his brother Robert were one of the drawers up here,

(5 Min)
(150)

and this Walker were in charge of wages. You’d also got a Manchester office which W. E. Nutter himself, who were managing director of this firm then ...

That’s Wilfred?

R- Wilfred, he were in it at Manchester along with a fellow called, what did they call Sidney's sister- that died? Mrs ...

I can’t remember. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it'll come.

R- Well, her husband were the Manchester man but he did the biggest part of his business in the office, at Manchester. Well, that were your staff here then.

Yes. Now when you say the Manchester man, just tell me what a Manchester man was, because a Manchester man…

R - The Manchester man used to stand on the Cotton Exchange in Manchester. Now, he’d meet all the spinners there and he’d book his yarn from a central position there. They used to have a number which were their stand. Now then, from there he’d also go round visiting customers round Manchester and that area. And that’s all your Manchester man ... well that’s what he did, he was the main man.

(200)

So he used to get the order for the cloth and he used to buy the yarn. [The Cotton Exchange at Manchester was the hub of the NW industry and very well organised. They set standard contracts and regulated the trade as well as providing a trading floor. It was possible for yarn ordered by a firm's representative to be delivered at the mill before the Manchester Man got home in the evening. It allowed very competitive pricing of yarn and cloth which was fine when the industry was in full flow but paradoxically became a drawback when trade contracted because the small returns on large quantities weren't sufficient to pay the higher fixed costs in a pertly occupied shed.]

R- He used to buy the yarn, yes.

How did he know how much yarn to buy? And what sort?

R- Well, if he got any orders he’d know what cotton they wanted, what weft they wanted, what type of weft, whether it were good weft, medium, or a low grade. Which whether it's a low grade cloth or high grade cloth such an that. And .. then he gets his prices.

So a good Manchester man’d have a fair idea about both weaving and cloth construction.

R- Cloth construction were his main…

Aye. Well that's what I mean really, he had to have a good idea ...

R- And in the old days the Manchester man were well up with cotton deliveries from abroad.

And most of the Manchester men would live in Barlick wouldn't they? You know, each mill’d have its own Manchester ...

R- He had it .. he called here every morning, they were mostly either in Earby or Barnoldswick which only two mile difference. But they used to visit t’mill every morning, before they went out to Manchester. [To get the early post which contained cloth orders.]

Aye, then they'd go on he train.

R- And then they went on the train.

And you were saying that the Manchester man would be a good man on the cotton market itself, you know, raw cotton coming in.

R- Cotton market itself, he’d know what cotton crops were like and such an that, whether they'd had a good year or whether it were a bad year for cotton.

When to buy like.

R- When to buy.

(250)

'Cause obviously in them days, if they knew they had a fair market for cloth that were taking say 40’s weft, and they had an idea it were a bad crop that year…

R- Bad crop yes.

Well they'd, they'd buy some in wouldn't they?

R - Yes. You see, what it amounts to Stanley, and on top of that, all your cotton prices, your raw cotton prices is based on American cost. It always has been, why I just can't tell you Stanley but that’s what [happened] because it were all American cotton at one time.

Yes.

R- Now, Whether it might have been, you know, carried on as such from the beginning, but it’s all based on the American market. But same as now, American cotton, there is very little used really but it used to be, t’biggest part used to be American.

And most of that’d be good cotton and all wouldn't it?

R- It were good cotton, yes, but now your mixings are Peruvian, Brazilian, Indian, in one mixing for one count of yarn.

How did the cloth go out of Barlick, then in 1936?

R - It used to go out by rail. They used to be loading into the wagons, do you know, closed wagons. It used to leave here, well just before I came, on a horse and cart which used to take it down to the station and they used to load there, into these containers and it were done by rail from here to Manchester.

(10 Min)

And did it go over to road transport before the war or …

R- War, yes, about 1934 .. just before I came here in late 1934. They'd got two wagons, bought two motor wagons.

(300

Nutters themselves? Aye, of course, that's what the garage were for, that was the idea wasn't it.

R- That’s right.

Well, they had a wagon up to not long since didn’t they? Jim Nutter drove it.

R- Jim Nutter drove it for years.

Yes. Aye, that's it.

R- And I’ve seen them two wagon back here before one o’clock, make two journeys a day into Manchester. They used to come back absolutely stacked with beams.

Yes. How many?

R- We were talking on different sorts, weren’t we?

Yes.

R- Now, when you take it there, look at the scope you had there, from 36 inch loom up to a 60 inch loom. We used to do .. and in the old days you used to, we even did a kind of a Terry Towelling on some dobby looms which we had.

That's a loop cloth.

R- Yes, like a honeycomb with a red stripe down. We used to weave them on ten shafts. We used to do some fancy curtaining, which were a printed warp, but you'd to find t'pattern on that warp you know.

And so the warp were printed before you put the weft In?

R- Yes.

Aye, I didn't know that.

R- Yes. It were a cheap curtaining in them days you know?

Aye that's it.

R- And then we did the usual do, two and two twills, two and one Jeannettes, sateens, herringbones, Florentines. They’d quite a variety, but same as now, we've got down to what we really call more or less a plain cloth, just two and twos.

So, in theory, if everything were going right, trade were good and all t’looms were full, it’d be possible for them to turn out here sommat like 80,000 yards of cloth a week in them days?

(350)

R- I went into that. Now you reckon 1152…

Now, all I was thinking was 1000 loom with one piece apiece.

R- And all them looms that we are talking about in them days Stanley, them looms weren’t doing 180 picks a minute, they were doing up to 240.

How many pieces could they get off a loom in a week?

R- Well, that just depends, well, we'll average it.

Aye…

R - Well if you average that, they'd do two, two a week.

Oh, it’s going to be a lot more then.

R- Because on some cloths you see, you take a Florentines, which is thick weft, coarse reed, not very high pick .. they could do up to two and a half pieces a week off them, of hundred yards you see.

So you're getting on to 200,000 yards a week. Aye.

R - Oh yes,

Like, if there are 1000 looms, two pieces each, that's 200 yard off each loom, that’s 200,000 yards a week. My God, it's some cloth isn’t it when you think. Out of one mill.

R - It is that. Out of one mill. You see they weren’t like we are now, tens. There were fours and fives.

That's it, yes. You mean each weaver had four or five looms.

R - Each weaver, and I should say your production off them were going up for round about 94 or 95% off them looms weekly although they were Lancashire looms.

That’s it, they were into it all the time.

R- They were into it all the time. Because the overlooker’s wage depended on the weaver.

That’s it, yes.

R- So there were no playing about, they'd just to go to the toilet. They'd, happen have about two puffs [cigarette] in the toilet and back out or the overlooker were looking for them because it were his wage that were at stake.

It were his wage that were going, aye. Tell me sommat .. while we are just thinking about the number of looms and this that and the other. When there were … say for a 1000 loom shop, working on the same sort of stuff

(15 Min)
(400)

that we were working on then .. .and let's just suppose that they were running on rewound weft you know, that they’d gone on to rewound weft. How many pirns would you need for a mill with 1000 looms in it?

R- A thousand looms?

Yes.

R- Well, we’ll take say on an average count, say a 30’s weft. Now then, in them days, with a pirn as we are using now, they’d run roughly about eight minutes. So you take it you’ve ... In them days what we are talking about Stanley, you started at seven o'clock in the morning, you'd a breakfast at half past eight while nine, so you'd an hour and a half then hadn’t you? And then you worked from nine o'clock till half past twelve so you had a five hour stint then hadn’t you from seven o’clock?

Yes.

R - Is that correct, am I right? Three and a half, one and a half, that’s five, yes. And then you worked from half past one till half past five, so you worked a nine hour day didn't you?

So each loom on that would need… They’d need roughly 70 pirns a day for, for one loom. It’s eight an hour at eight minutes.

R- Seven - Nine . It’s short of nine isn’t it? It's short of nine in the hour?

Well, sommat like that, aye.

R- Yes. So nine .. say, we'll call it nine in the hour Stanley.

Well that’s nine nines are 81 in a day.

R- That's it .. aye, 81.

So that’s 80. So that means that, how many have you got to allow, how many would you allow over the top of that for what we are going to have stood idle and stood in …

R- No, you’ve got to have that replaced.

Yes. Each day.

R- Each day.

So you’re going to need more than double, you are going to need double to go…

R- You want at least two and a quarter times that.

Aye at least, yes. So that's going to be, say, we've said 80, that’s 80000. So you’re going to need at least 200,000 pirns.

(450)

R- Two hundred thousand pirns for 1152 looms, on a four and five loom system. But you see, I’m just going back to when they knocked Saturday mornings of, but in 1936 you worked Saturday Morning while half past ten. So you’d three and a half hours there you see?

Yes aye.

R- So you can say you have another three and a half hour on top of that Stanley can't you.

Aye, yes.

R- To carry on with you'd need roughly round about 240,000 pirns.

It's going some isn't it? Now then, we’ll just go forward a little bit. You were drawing in right up to the war.

R- Right up to the .. well .. No I'd had various jobs Stanley. Why I don't know, whether they had sommat in mind, Nutters, I don't know. I did a period like I’ve said, I did twisting then I'd to learn drawing. From drawing I had to go into the tape room.

Who were taping here then?

There were Joe Nutter, Rene Shepherd and Joe Cowley.

So we had three tapes?

R- You’d three tapes running then and bear in mind those tapes worked from seven in the morning till nine o'clock every night except for Wednesday night. And they also worked seven o’clock till half past ten on Saturday morning.

So you worked on the donkey engine for .. three and a half hours every night... half past five to nine.

R- You worked on the donkey engine. Yes, from half past five to nine o'clock the donkey were knocked on you see, switched over.

[The tapes had to run continuously throughout the day as there was tremendous wastage of yarn if they stopped in mid warp so the tape room had a small steam engine, the donkey engine, which was started and ran the tape room shaft through a fast and loose pulley system. In other words, the shafting could be disconnected from the main engine drive and run from the auxiliary engine.]



The tape room donkey engine.

Aye.

R- So actually, the preparation staff, as long as we were here, nearly up to the war, always worked over till nine o’clock except for one night a week which were Wednesday..

Course you’d need … They'd need to do it really because you always used to reckon one tape for 300 looms didn’t you?

R- Well, yes, that’s what they reckoned in the old days. They tried to cut it down to less you see, but it doesn't work out that way Stanley, it just depends on the sorts you run doesn’t it.

Yes.

(500)

R- I mean to say, the thicker your twist is and the slower drying it is, so you can’t run as fast, on your tape. Anyway, as we were talking about these hours that we did Stanley, you bear in mind some weeks I’ve seen as many as 500 coming out in a week.

Warps.

R- Five hundred warps a week they did. Especially when you've such as full times you know.

Yes, the stuff they were getting through.

R- Which is downing maybe every fortnight.

Yes, when you say downing, a warp will go a fortnight.

R- That’s right, a warp will last a fortnight weaving in the shed. But they laugh at you when you tell ‘em that. But it's so easy, they get mixed up with hours Stanley. What you're doing now and what you did in them days. You can reckon a week in them days as 48 ½ hours can't you.

Oh more. I mean when you're talking about the tapes working three and a half hours extra, that’s 16 hours on top of that. I mean you're getting into the 70 hour street. But, so the boiler man would have been here because they'd have to keep the boiler on. [Remember that as well as steam for the donkey they needed steam for boiling size and heating the cylinders.]

R- Yes.

And how about the housewife’s shift here, did they ever run one before the war? [This was an evening shift for part timers.]

R- No. No, that were after the war.

No, that were after weren't it. Well we'll leave that till after. So you were drawing then you went in taping as well.

R- I went in taping and all. And from taping I went and did two month in the weaving shed.

Actually weaving?

R – Aye, under somebody. Now, it didn't make sense to me all that. I thought I were being mugged round the place, you know?

Well, it's fairly obvious what were happening isn’t it? Really?

R- And then gradually I wandered my way back up to the drawing buffet.

How about cloth looking, didn't you go…?

R- Well I didn't go into cloth looking after that.

Now that's what we are coming up to then. Towards the war.

R- Yes.

What were your feelings when t’war was declared, can you remember?

R- Well, feelings Stanley, when they announced you were at war you didn’t think owt really about it at first, till it hit you. And then you suddenly realised you were .. what can I say, you might not be here so much longer.

(550)

In danger.

R- So a bit of silliness goes out of you. You're beginning to feel like a man in them days aren’t you? Growing up, faster than what you thought of doing.

You weren't married then, were you, you were courting.

R- Yes, I were married.

Oh aye, married. Now, when were you married? Now then, what day were you married?

R – Stanley, my memory for getting married, anniversary, owt like that is hopeless. It were in May sometime.

Oh dear! Aye well …

R- What day I don’t know.

That’ll be all right, we'll have to consult with Ivy, she’ll remember. I've never heard of a woman yet that couldn't remember her marriage dates

R- Ivy’ll know. I can't…

Anyway, you are married, war's declared, and a bit of the silliness has gone out of you, you're ...

R- That’s right. I were a bit stunned really you know.

Tell me, before war was actually declared, did you take notice of what were in the papers? You know, I mean did you realise that there was a silly bugger called Hitler in Europe?

R- Oh yes, you realise Stanley and you say “Bloody time somebody stopped this silly bugger you know, who is going to grab everything" And yet you wondered who the hell was going to stop him and then we found out it were us. So we thought “Hell fire, we are in a bit of a hole now.” So everybody’s waiting of papers coming through the door, being called up. And then it starts, the expeditionary force goes, bloody hell, they’re not there so long, he’s ploughed through them. So it's getting dangerous and then your own papers come.

When did yours come?

R- Oh it was just before Christmas in l940. And I knew there were sommat wrong, because Ivy brought me dinner up. I said "'what the hell's up Ivy? Coming up with me dinner.” She’d also brought me papers up and all, I were Called Up. There were tears you know. Anyway, that were it.

(600)

What were you called up into?

R- Into the artillery, stationed at Carlisle, Hadrian’s Camp. I were there for a period. Then I were moved into heavy artillery. Then I did a move from there down to Oswestry.

(25 Min)

You were doing your artillery training there were you.

R- At Oswestry yes.

What were you training on?

R- Four point fives, Ack-Ack guns. [Ack-Ack was the slang name for Anti-Aircraft guns.] And then after I come out of this training us first station were up at Glasgow, a place called Shettleston. They’d never had any bombs up there, like guns were already there. Well, everybody were surprised and the damn sirens went first neet. Never been known before up there. So we runs to the guns, Hell fire, they wouldn't go, rusted up. What a performance it were. Anyway they fired the neet after, but this is the way it were during the war, Stanley.

Why you didn't take your own guns up there with you? Were there guns waiting there when you went there?

R- No, we had guns there, three point five.

Aye. Who’d had them before?

R - Some ? But they’d only mucked about training on them you know. And then we were doing the damn guards up there with pick axe shafts, no rifles, still had us gas masks in a cardboard box, this were in 1940. And then I were moved from there and we moved to Middlesbrough, near Dorman Longs on the mouth of, is it Tees?

Yes.

R- We were right on the mouth of the Tees there, and .. these here boats used to come up for depth charges to take out, you know to destroy 'em and that. [Anti submarine patrols. ]

Near South Shields was it?

R - Yes up, up that way. And we were like, guarding such as Dorman Long’s.

With a pick axe shaft?

R- Yes, stood on guard with a pick axe shaft, no rifle, we hadn't got a rifle then.

Oh!

R- But we had four point fives up there on the site. And eh, hell! And they were just nuisance raiders up there, you know. Just these coming over and creating. We were up for a month solid. Anyway, I were on leave. And instead of dropping bombs on Dorman Long, they dropped

(650)

them on to the council chambers in Redcar, killed I don't know how many councillors. Like it were funny like, you know, and it weren't. So I got me papers, when we moved we started to go up, back up to Scotland to a site up there. And oh it were bloody terrible there, we were out in the fields miles from anywhere.

Where were that?

R- Oh I don’t know Stanley where it was. I weren’t interested there, all I could do were bloody walk fields. Whatever we were guarding there I didn't know. And then we were moved from there to, near a place called Stevenson in Scotland, and we were guarding Ardeer ammunition works there.

Yes. That's it, aye. explosive works aye.

R- And I'd a good do up there, I enjoyed meself.

Yes. What year is this about when you were at Stevenson. Up at Ardeer.

R- Forty one.

Nineteen forty one. And now?

R- And then I went

Now wait a minute, wait a minute, while you were at Stevenson now, you got time for a bit of cricket while you were up there didn’t you?

R- Aye, I played with Ayr.

That's it.

R- I used to get Friday, they allowed me Friday. They used to come and pick me up in a car or a taxi, Friday night. And then they used to bring me back at Sunday night.

Just tell me about when you played there.

R – What, at Ayr, first time.

Go on, you tell me.

R – Well, it were a bit interesting were this. I’m walking up to the ground, and …

I'm sorry, I’m going to interrupt you because there's something we’ve missed. How did they know you were a cricketer? How did the word get round?

R- As we got to Stevenson, you see Stanley, you had officers that were interested in cricket and football. Now then, it were quite a good field what we were in, level bottom and guns were on the hill just above. So they made a cricket pitch there. Now then, these officers had their own, picked their own teams and they used to play one another, they used to have a side bet you see did the officers. And while we were playing cricket on the bottoms, folk come walking past, it were on a main road. And they started watching and so forth and next thing I know somebody came and said

(700)
(30 Min)

“Would you like a game at Stevenson?" So I said aye, I don’t mind. Which were kind of village do but they'd tennis courts, a real sports centre it were. And .. I says Aye, I don't mind if I do. So the following Saturday I played, and I’d a good do. So they were interested and I played for them a few weeks . And I got well looked after. I got a bit of money and a meal or two, which everybody enjoyed in the forces. And somehow or other they must have got to know at Ayr which isn’t far off Stevenson actually. They come and approach me and I said “Well I don’t know, I can’t say I can get permission to play, but I'd like to play" so they went and saw the Captain and .. he said it were all right. But I had to play for the Battalion, I've to play for the Battalion, I couldn't play for them so they granted me this permission, so they sent for me at Friday and brought me back at Sunday. And the first match I played, it were funny. As I'm going up to the ground with these people that I stayed with .. there were this sign, Bill Pollard, of Lancashire County Cricket Club. Well what they were thinking about were Dick Pollard.

Dick aye, Th’old Chain Horse. [Dick Pollard was a famous player at Lancashire at the time. His nickname was ‘Th’Old Chain Horse’ because he was famous for bowling long stints.]

R- Yes, I had a good do with Ayr, and I enjoyed it. And while I were on leave I were picked to play with Ayr County, you know they play in different counties up in Scotland.

Just … while we are talking about that, just go forward one little bit there and … after the war, I think it was after the war wasn't it? Ayr offered you a job up there didn’t they?

R – Well, after the war Stanley, I could have gone and Pro’d at Ayr, and I could have also gone to Paisley, which is Glasgow and Pro’d there. [Pro’d means played as a professional.] I could have had a three or two year contract and been found a winter job in Paton and Baldwins.

That's it, there’s plenty of textiles at Paisley.

R- Yes, there you see. And … but the wife wouldn't move you see. So in a way, I held that over this firm's head because occasionally what they did, they put me off and made me sign on twice. [Short time.] The place was stopped admittedly but I said if I were going to be put on unemployed any more I were finishing and taking this contract you see? So from that date to this I’ve never signed on.

Right, well let’s go back to Stevenson. You are on the four point fives there, you are playing cricket but there is still a war going on in Europe and in other places. Go on from there. [4.5 and 3.5 are the names given to the type of gun they were using. It refers to the diameter of the shell they fired. The navy used the size of the bore as the designation but the army usually used the weight of the shell up to 25 pounders. Beyond that they went on to bore size.]

(750)

R- Yes. Go on from there? Well Stevenson, after we moved from Stevenson we finished up at a place called Billingham. And what we were guarding there was the I.C.I. works, but there were never no raiders round there. We thought it were a bit strange. All we were doing were polishing the guns. And the site that we’d moved from on Tees bank had been wiped out. Well, they started there as we moved out, they'd put women on the predictor site you know? They were giving you instructions from the predictor which you put into the gun and it's supposed to [aim the gun perfectly] But the human element creeps in and there were always mistakes you see. Well you’d have shot every plane down there were. And that site were wiped out.

How do you mean, wiped out?

R- Well they dropped bombs on it at the finish. But we thought it strange that they should bring us off a gun site like that and put such as ATS on and some that hadn’t been in long and were rookies. You know, to guard a place like that. For us to go to Billingham, say we were going to guard I.C.I. and all that we ever did were polish the guns. But it turned out that they were preparing us to go abroad. So we got orders to move out of Billingham, and go to Leeds. And we were billeted in houses in Leeds and we were on us way, you know, abroad from there. We were in houses situated outside Headingley cricket field, all round that area. And it weren't so bad, wife came up every week. And we were there happen three week to a month, I’m not certain which, and then we were paraded, I didn't know a thing, we paraded ... and marched from Headingley right down to the station .. And I’ll never forget that march, kitted up, kit bag, and plodding along down that long road to the station from there, and folk that were lined up “Poor lads, the poor lads”

They knew where you were going.

R - They knew where we were going, they'd seen it happen before.

Did you know where you were going then?

R- No, we hadn’t a clue where we were going Stanley.

(800)

R- So we were put into these railway carriages and it were dark. All the blinds down, huddled in the carriages we were. Eh, I thought - I've been on this train a bloody long while, you know, I’ll see where it’s going. Funny enough I should open the window and I’m passing Skipton station. I thought, this is a bloody funny road to Derby, this way, Skipton.

Oh, you thought you were going to Derby then?

R- Oh, we'd heard we were going to Derby, to Donnington Park and then getting some leave. And I say “This is a funny way to Derby” And then I got a voice from the back, “Pull that blind down!” So the blind went down and next thing we gets off to sleep and wakened up on the dock side in Scotland, up at Gourock.

You went from Leeds down to Skipton and finished up in Scotland?

R- In Scotland, at Gourock. When they marched us there I've never seen as big a bloody ship in my life. Oh dear Stanley I felt I’d never make it up that gang plank. So we set off up the gang plank and gets to the top. Well, a bloody smart bloke up there was shouting palliasse or hammock! I thought well, I’ve heard one or two mention they’ll have a hammock so I’ll try one. It must be good sleeping. Anyway, they put us in us decks. There were 360 on one deck and there were just three toilets. And all they were, they were just like tables laid across with forms down the side. So anybody that got a palliasse either put it under the table or put it on t’top of the table. And there were these hooks up and down where you fasten your hammocks. Well it were laughable. It were really funny to see us fastening an hammock up. We finished up like letter S’s, like a saxophone, at morning. So the faster I could get rid of me hammock the better I reckoned. I got a mattress, I were better. Well, after I’d been out a there a bit Stanley, you'd never seen a deck like that in your life.

What were the name of the boat?

R- Castle, some Castle. And, oh but them toilets, they were swimming over, it were on what we called the mess dock, and the smell, Ph'shoo, it were wicked. So we got to a stage, at night when we pigged down, everybody started baaing like sheep. So there were one smart little officer, he hadn’t been with us long, “Anybody that makes that noise again will be put on some kind of duty.” Well t’usual cry, he got a mouth full. Well it were just chaotic. Anyway, we were in this convoy, there were forty some boats in this convoy. We hadn’t a clue where we were going. Anyway we gets to Gibraltar. An aircraft carrier met us there and one or two of the others. Still kept

(850)

plodding on. And then it took us .. oh, we went up and we went to ... what were it? West Coast of Africa. We pulled in at a place there and we stopped three days, watered up, and then we set off again, and we finished at Durban so we’d four days there and it were beautiful. No we’d five days at Durban, beautiful.

Go ashore?

R- Yes. And folk that were waiting to take you to their houses. Marvellous. And if you hadn’t like a day's leave or owt you went for a march down the roads in Durban. Folk, they were coming with them string bags of oranges, couldn’t do enough for you there, Stanley, South Africa. And it were really laughable, if you had a day off on your own and you wanted to go on your own, you didn’t want to go, you'd have to go there with a family. You know? You see these here running up and down, these, like Zulus with these carriages and touring on the road and they'd have them Zulu feathers floating away. And beaches, just white, and bands playing. Oh it were lovely. But there were these here distinctions you know, this sign, this and the other.

What do you mean?

R- With Coloured .. you know.

Aye. Be a bit different than Barlick!

R - Barlick yes. And funny enough there were some Americans there and you know what American suiting material were then, you thought everybody were officers. Well, you were throwing salutes up and they were only privates when it came out. So we left there and we’re still in a convoy of say, 30, then we wakened up one morning we were on us own. Well, that did it, “I hope this bloody boat can move!” everybody were saying. And we finished up, the bloody engine shut up and we stopped. And we thought “We are in a hell of a hole now.” And I don’t know what they were waiting on, Stanley but then we moved out of there and we finished up at Mombassa in East Africa. But really when it came out, we were on for the Madagascar job, us. And by the time we got there it’d been settled, so we were diverted to Mombassa and what we were on then was Ack-Ack. We were training what they called Askaris you know, darkies, they had to go from there to Burma.

So you were stationed in Mombassa?

R- So we were stationed in Mombassa.

How long for?

R- Oh we were in there seven or eight months.

And when were that?

R - There were gun sites there

Yes, 1940?

R- That’d be late 1941 then. And ... they wore a bloody awful crowd the East Africans, far different to the South Africans. And .. we didn't enjoy it a bit there you know. And what we were doing we were just training these Askaris mainly, such as tribes, you know, from Uganda. And it were funny how they were picked out, there were no such thing as volunteering or that, they used to sit round in a square you know, one tribe, they sit round with the chief and he just says you, you, and you. You're in the Army now. And this is where we got them.

Did you actually see that happening?

R – I’ve seen that happen, yes. And there used to be, what did they call them then? That were there when it were happening you know?

District Commissioner?

R- District Commissioner. Only thing I enjoyed about there Stanley were when we were on leave. We went to Nairobi and up to a small place called Nyeri and it were very interesting really. Except for Nairobi, we stopped in a place, I've never seen a place as bug ridden in my life. Bugs everywhere. And I know we, we should have slept in t’bed, but hell, beds were full of bugs. So we sat up all night playing cards. But your holiday, you had a good do really, your holiday started and you had a full 14 days holiday. But it took you sometime three or four days to travel to where you were going, you know? Funny on the railways you know, in some places, you'd have damn big, like giraffes, strolling across lines you know? Eh .. ! And then .. after a period I were in charge of about 40 Askaris and had to take'em up the main land.

You were still a private were you?

R - No, I were a sergeant then.

Oh you were a sergeant? You never mentioned about this promotion that had struck! Go on, so you were a sergeant.

R - And I had to take these on to this Mombassa Island, about 40 mile into the islands itself... Mombassa, Nairobi, you know, into the undergrowth like. Because we’d had some ammunition dumps in there. And what we were doing there we’d to get it all ready for stacking up and shipping out to be took on to Burma. They were getting mobilized to go to Burma from there after we trained all these, and we were going with 'em. And I finished

(45 min)

up I couldn't go because I got black water fever, while I was there.

Ah. That's pretty bad isn't it?

R Aye. I'll say! I just remember I had been pretty bad for a day or two and…

When you say you'd been pretty bad. In what way you know? What were it, diarrhoea or what?

R- Well, feeling sick and couldn’t be sick, and .. when you'd pass water it started .. and a real orangey colour. and you didn't have any pain, but you just kept this here, and you felt to have a big lump in your stomach you know. And it felt to be going bigger and bigger and then you found out that your vision weren't as good as it should be. I plodded on for two days but we couldn’t get in communication with these which were on Mombassa Island which were our headquarters. So what we had to do, we’d to wait of a truck coming across and bringing food supplies. That were the only way we had a communication with Mombassa Island.

So that were the only way you could go sick.

R- I could go sick you see. And I held on while the food wagon came up, and lucky enough the officer came on with it, you know. And I couldn’t get out of bed on that, morning. So they just put me on the back of this wagon and rushed me straight down to this, forty miles, nothing on the bottom of the wagon, just on a wagon doings, and rushed me down to the ferry which took me to Mombassa Island. And then there were pandemonium. I can just remember getting in hospital and they laid me .... on this here and there were a scurry, and two more came and looked at me, and then they disappeared and two more came and next thing I can just remember being wheeled up in this trolley. And next thing I could remember were being sat on the edge of the bed and they put a big long tube down me throat and I’m not kidding … sick. And there were a lump of bile what they call bile, honestly it were amazing how it come up, size of it. And then after that I started with like an haemorrhage and me white corpuscles and me red corpuscles had started what … fighting with one another. And all that just come through me penis like black jelly.

Aye, that’s why they call it Black Water Fever?

R - Yes. Just like black jelly it were, and then they'd to start and pump blood into me. And all I can remember Stanley were, I can just remember saying “I can’t take no more. I can't take no more.”

It sounds bloody terrible. It does.

R- And then I didn’t know owt else, for six weeks.

When you say you didn’t know anything else for six weeks, were you like
delirious and…

R- I were out for six weeks.

That’s right.

R- I were in hospital from 10th of May while 13th of November. They wouldn't let me out.

That’s like the Duke of Wellington said Jim, it were a damn close run thing.

R- Yes. And while I were in there they brought two more in with Black Water Fever and they didn't survive. And .. there were a sister there, sister Osborne and she kept in contact with me until she died.

(1000)

Sister…?

R- Osborne

Osborne

R- A London person and she were a bit like .. Nurse Barlow in stature, big, and a marvellous person she were. She could just pick me out of bed like a doll.

Well of course your weight’d go down fairish and all wouldn't it?,

R- Well even when they sent me home, and I landed on Barlick station, and I was weighed when I went to the doctor the following day after I’d come home. I was five stone thirteen.

Now that were on the road to recovery.

R- That’s on t’road to recovery.

So what had you got down to?

R- I don't know Stanley, I couldn’t remember. But they used to weigh me every three days while I were in hospital Stanley and I were coming round, first thing I had when I were coming round was alkaline water. And I had a certain amount of this to sup daily without fail. And while I drunk this, you know how awkward it is when you’ve to use a bottle? And I couldn’t move right well. And every one of them bottles had to be weighed, water had to be weighed to see what I were passing.

(50 Min)

So, what went in and what come out. Yes.

R- What come out. And that went on for weeks, and then when I finished with that I were fortunate enough to get on Champagne. They give me a bottle, they let, they give me a bottle of champagne for the oxygen that were in it or sommat.

Aye?

R - Now after that were done I had four bottles of Guinness a day. I had one first thing at the morning, I had one at dinner time, and one at tea time and one last thing at night.

Well, I don’t make much of the disease Jim, but I think the bloody treatment was marvellous.

[In 1954 I was in a military hospital in Chester and we were given a bottle of Guinness every night to build us up.]


SCG/02 November 2002
7719 words.




LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/07

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON SEPTEMBER 4TH 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


We shall just roll quietly on from where we left off last week, because I can remember my exact words. I said I didn't think much of the disease but I thought the treatment was bloody marvellous.

R – That’s correct, yes.

Yes, you were on Guinness four times a day and champagne and that…

R - Morning, lunch time, tea time and supper time. Couldn’t have better feed than that Stanley.

No, not really. And that were for the black water fever weren't it.

R - Yes.

Now, I was talking to a little bird with bow legs this week and he told me that weren’t the only thing you had while you were out there.

R- Who were that?

Ernie. You had sommat else while you were out there that was rather nasty. Did he say something about Nairobi Eye?

R - A Nairobi eye. Oh aye!

Tell me about that.

R- Well .. now then, when we were abroad Stanley, we slept with mosquito nets and the way they made these huts, they happen threw them up for shelter or sommat like that. They put us under some trees. Right? I don’t know, they were a certain type of tree. Now then there were, I should say it reminded me of a big caterpillar, he used to eat these leaves. Now then, these used to fall down on to the hut top, if you didn’t watch it they’d come in. Now, if you had your mosquito net up at night they'd a tendency to get under that net and just crawl on you. Well, one crawled up to my eye and just went across it, top of my lid and it left some kind of acid. Well, you'd never seen owt like that in the morning, it were just like bladder of lard stuck out were me eye. And that were full of water. So next thing I'm rushed to hospital with it, and all they did was put some kind of powder such as a Johnson’s baby powder, just dust it with that and a big swab of cotton wool and then a lightly put bandage all round it. And I had to keep that on until it kept going down and down. And they said “Don’t bump it at all, you can lose the sight of your eye with that.” And it just went down normally but all flabby skin where it had all been affected. It were just like somebody who is aged were that, you know, how they wrinkle up?

Yes. That's it, aye,

R - And that were called A Nairobi eye.

I don’t think I want to go to Nairobi. It's funny, I know a lass that's just gone out there and all. I’ll tell you who's out there, Linda that was here the other week with you, Linda Lloyd Jones.

R – Is she?

Yes, she’s gone back out there. Anyway, that's a different story altogether. So, after you’d been in hospital, you went into hospital at Liverpool?

R - I went, well, when they whipped me home from Africa on the 11th of November.

So what year were that, 1940….

R – It’d be happen 1944, sommat like that.

(100)

New there, let me just get it straight, they shipped you back to Liverpool and …

R- Me first stop were at Port Said, I came from Mombassa to Port Said on a Canadian hospital Boat. And then we were trans-shipped to a ordinary passenger boat from Port Said to Liverpool. Treat? When you got from Port Said to Liverpool, oh it were shocking to anybody that were just coming out of hospital. I were just an ordinary passenger then. It were nearly as bad as when you went out Stanley, with a palliasse on a table top and such as that. Well then, when we arrived at Liverpool we were shipped to hospital. I think it were up Prestwick way, somewhere there, I forget the name of the hospital. It were on a main road because I used to see Feather’s wagons from Colne, road transport, used to come past daily the top gate.

(5 Min)

And how long were you in there?

R - Six weeks, Then I were parcelled up, bag and baggage because they couldn’t give me any treatment really, they didn’t give me any treatment, just carried on with the bottle of Guinness. And I played hell. I said “I might as well be at home”, and you know how you do – “If I can’t go I’ll get on Feathers wagon and be home in no time” you know. But they shipped me out of there, and I were on a double decker bus on me own to Lime Street Station at Liverpool, two kitbags and a valise and I weighed 5 stone 13 pound when I left. And It’s a good job there were folk about that could carry that stuff because I couldn’t Stanley. And you know how you changed trains in them days to get to Colne…

Aye.

R- Well every change that I had to make I had to rely on somebody to carry them two kitbags and me valise and put then in another compartment for me.

(150)

And then I come home for a period.

How long were you at home?

R- I should think I'd be at home about six or seven weeks and then they transferred me. I had to report to Calderstones Hospital at Whalley. And what a place to send invalids! They were mental at one side you know. And they'd t’other half for soldiers. Well, all you got there were remedial P.T. you know, because me feet were worse if you know what I mean, me legs seemed to be… they wouldn't go like they did before, you know. So they were going to have me going on route marches. “Well, I said - I'm not having that,” So I had to sit on a form in this here place, I used to just keep turning me foot up and down, like remedial PT. And I always remember, I'd be in there happen two months at Calderstones, and weren't I glad to get out. I had to go in front of a board and they downgraded me. Well I went in front of two, well first time I went in front of .. just … well there were these little red hats and they sat there with white coats and what have you .. a lot of twaddle it were. They say "Well, you are graded three, C3. “Well I haven't had any treatment.” “Get out” he says. So I had to report back to the same lot the week after. No arguing or asking me how I felt or owt like that, I were just C3 and out again. And I went from there to Blackburn, Witton Park, and .. I'd be there two months happen more. From Witton Park I had to report back to Woolwich t’way I came. You know, which is the base for the artillery actually.

What were you doing at Witton Park, anything?

(200)

R- Well I worked in the office you know there.

Aye. How were your weight then? Going back up?

R- Well aye, happen about seven stone. But best that I went when I started putting weight on, it were when I moved to Woolwich because I met an old friend of mine there. And usually when you got C3 you were on low shoes, couldn't wear big heavy ones you know, low shoes. You couldn't go on guard duty or such as that; all you were doing then Stanley were such as toilet cleaning or in the cook house. Anyway, I’m parading one day and this bloke that we‘d been with before we went abroad, and he’d been left in England and he was a corporal. And he were in what they called the employment office there. So I finished up In the employment office with him, and that were just a matter of everybody out on parade that morning. There’d he four or five hundred on parade; and it were just like a big, you could call it a big unemployment office. You used to have to go down on to the square and count them off in hundreds or sixty or seventy, men you know. And send them out on demolition or search parties. If there'd been a raid you used to send to many out and they’d start digging for bodies in these bombed out houses. And you used to send them down to Woolwich Arsenal to the ammunition works, or you sent them down to the docks. So that were a very good job because I had a good billet and I’d me meals brought in from the cook house straight away and it were better food and I started gaining weight you know. Well .. after that we moved to Birmingham from there, same kind of thing, and from Birmingham we were sent to Manchester and out into new clothes and out of the army. You know, demobbed.

When were you demobbed? [De-mobilised]

R – Nineteen forty six sommat like that. So you come home, and you have your leave and then you get fed up, you know. Oh, I had about .. I had a hell of a long while on leave. Well, after the first three weeks I were fed up. So I went and reported to the dole to see if I had a job. Well he says – you can go back into textiles. Bugger that I say, and '”There must be some better jobs than that!” you know? All right - he said, look, I’ve found you a job then, you can go to the gas works. And the bloke that were on there, dishing these jobs out, were a fellow that had the same job that I did before I was called up. You can call him a mate, work mate. And he had t’bloody cheek to try and send me to the gas works! C3 I says, you’ve got a bloody hope! Oh no! So I decided to come back in textiles; so I were back in the mill after a month.

Which mill?

R– This.

Back home, Bancroft.

R - back home.

Now tell me, you'd gone away to the war, never been out of the country, you’ve gone abroad, you’d seen all sorts, and you’re back in Barlick again. Now would you say that when you came back to Barlick .. I’m not talking about what you found when you came back just for the moment ... how would you say your attitudes had changed, had your attitudes changed when you came back?

R- Well I can't tell, I don’t think they had really Stanley.

Do you think you were the same fellow that you were when you went out? You'd had a lot of experience…

R – Well, I were a bit more bloody cheeky.

Now what do you mean by that?

R- I’d been pushed around and least bit of a thing like. You’d say, you know, “Get stuffed” or sommat like that you know. I would never have thought of saying that before to anybody. Same as I played a season of cricket you know after I came back.

(300)
And .. you'd that ‘devil may care’ attitude, you didn't give a bugger. If somebody said …same as I used to field in't first slip, in't cricket, mainly in the slips And least bit of a chance I thought, for an L.B.W. position I’d shout me head off and if anybody turned round and said “We’re playing a game of cricket” I’d say “Be quiet, what the hell are you talking about. Get on with thi bloody game!” I’d never have said that before Stanley.

More independent.

R – Yes.

Yes. How about Barlick itself, any change in Barlick, you know, any change in the town?

R - No change, Stanley, no change, it were still the same Barlick to me. Same faces. Nay, there were mostly the same faces at work..

Aye, a few missing?

R- Well no, I wouldn't say there were Stanley. There'd been a few killed, but there were only one out of the mill and he were killed early on in the war. Well you were used to that you see, before we went.

What were the attitude of people in Barlick when you came back. When I say 'their attitude' you know, what was their attitude towards people that had been away at the war and come back, was there any different attitude?

R- No, no different attitude Stanley, no different attitude.

No conquering heroes?

R- No conquering heroes or owt like that. They just, I think they thought like you'd a right to go and that were it. And that's what it boiled down to.

It were a job.

R- But you see, the war were over then Stanley.

Aye, I see what you mean.

R- And there were no danger of anybody coming any more, [Enemy raids] so the feeling had gone out of that. Well, before t’war started, least bit of danger, even if the siren went, plenty of panic stations in Barlick. Oh aye, everybody were going to build air raid shelters, any nook or corner where they thought they could get an air raid shelter, they'd do sommat about it.

Oh, so the siren did go in Barlick?

R- Oh the siren went in Barlick, oh yes.

Whatever for?

(15 Min)
(350)

R- Well. You see there were these raids at Liverpool and at Manchester. Well ... you take it then Stanley there were bugger all to raid here, really. [I think Jim was saying that the siren went when enemy planes flew over on the way to other targets.]

Aye. But there were a fair deal at Manchester. I know, I were in it.

R- Yes. Well, I were training at Carlisle when the first raid were in Manchester. And the morning after, the parade ground were empty because I were called up with all Manchester lads, just a few from London. They'd all took their hook to the Manchester and Salford area to see if their families were all right. Aye. Well after they come back they were doing a fancy bit of doubling round the parade ground with their kit, with a valise on their back.

Yes, I know all about that! So you're back in Barlick … [I lived in Stockport during the war and spent many a night in the Anderson shelter listening to bombs raining down.]

R- And you wouldn’t even think… No, war didn't mean nowt after, when you come back and it’d been over a few months. Everybody carried on as normal. Everybody were trying to get into Rolls. Well it were the Rover Company and that, get into that place and the textiles had been a bit forgotten then because they'd found out that there were far better in jobs in engineering than whatever there were in textiles.

And then there were .. at that time you are talking about .. just let's see whether I've got it right .. Wellhouse was closed. Wellhouse had been used as a tobacco warehouse.

R – Yes.

Bankfield were t'Rover, Calf Hall .. ?

[Rolls Royce actually took over the Rover Company’s assets in the area in early 1942 but by that time the phrase ‘working at the Rover’ had become common currency and hung on for a long time.]

R - That were under the Rover.

That were under Rover as well weren't it? Now, what other mills were closed down, can you remember, after the war? Let’s go through them, it’ll be the easiest way for you. Westfield, what were going on there?

R – Westfield. Well there were Procter’s and such as that there.

Aye, they were weaving.

R - They were weaving, there were Brooks's weren't there, at Westfield?

Yes, Brooks's at Westfield, that's it. Edmondson Brooks. Fernbank?

R – Yes, they were weaving in there, there were such as .. there’d be Mannock & Gill and probably Cairns and Langs were still there. And then there were Edmondson’s there.

(400)

R- Yes. Butts?

R- Well, Butts, they changed soon after the war. There were a fridge firm in there that made electric fridges and such as that Stanley, so that had been changed over. So there weren’t… there was one you know, what do they call them, Aldersley’s, there were Aldersley’s at the back side at Butts.

Aye, that little shed at t’back there. [But the rest of Butts was requisitioned as another bonded store.]

R – Yes, there were Aldersley’s there.

Aye. Calf Hall were t’Rover, Bancroft were weaving obviously, Wellhouse was a tobacco store. How about Clough?

R - Now let’s see .. I think Clough’d still be going. I'm nearly certain Clough'd still be going under Slater’s.

Yes, under Slater’s aye. Long Ing?

R- Long Ing were still going.... Pickles's

That were Pickles ... yes and who else were in t'Long Ing? Was there somebody else in there? Anyway it doesn’t matter.

R- Barnsey Shed…

Bouncer were Pickles.

R- Barnsey were Pickles, Knowles’s and Nutter Brothers. Nutter Brothers at one end, because Nutter Brothers were down at Grove and they moved out of Grove because they [government] took that over for a storage place during the war, Grove Mill down at Earby, which is now Armoride.

That's it, so Nutter Brothers came up into t’back side at t’Bouncer.

R- Bouncer.

Aye. And Moss were Widdups, there were nobody else in Moss only Widdups were there?

R – No, aye there were Widdups ...

Aye that’s it. There were that silk firm, weren't there?

R - There were Widdups, then there were, what we call Bendem’s now.

Yes, B. & E M. Holdens.

R- Holdens, Blackie Holden’s and then there were another ... Alderton’s were it?

Aye, now wait a minute ...

R- In Moss there were Widdup’s, Alderton’s, Holden’s .. Widdup’s had the biggest area there.

Aye, it were Widdup’s mill weren't it, Moss. They were the biggest share holders.

R - Colin Alderton’s, Holden’s ...

How about that Ellerbank Manufacturing Company, that were the silk company.

R – Well, Ellerbank did a small bit but at the back side of Moss Shed Stanley. And then they moved from…

They, were they silk?

R- Silk, they were a silk firm. And then they moved from there back down into t’other back end of…

(450)

(20 min)

Bouncer?

R- No.

Long Ing?

R- Wellhouse, Wellhouse Mill.

Oh in Wellhouse, yes.

R - Yes. Now there were also, when they started up there were, Ellerbank came into it and then there was another small firm in there, and then Nutters started again you see, it’d be Nutter Brothers.

How about the Silk Manufacturing Company?

R- Who?

They called them Silk Manufacturing Company, they used to be in ...

R- Westfield?

Well at one time

R - Not Westfield?

No, at one time they were in, or the people who formed that company were in Coates Mill and then I don't know whether they went down to Earby. Did they go down to Earby?

R - Now there were, what were that place called .. were it Fernsil that went in to where Edmondson were?

Aye it could be, it sounds like it, Fernbank silk weaving, Fernsil. I've not heard of them but that could be right.

R - There were a firm moved in there you know, a silk firm. Because not long after, it weren't a long while after, you got such as Mannock & Gill finishing, and all them smaller units. I should think out of the original ones down there now there is only Edmondson because the other is Lontex isn’t it?

That’s it, yes. Now then, there are still some looms down there isn't there? Those are the only other looms in Barlick. They tell me it’s a very well run place.

R - Which?

Down at …

R – Lontex?

Fernbank.

R – Lontex?

Aye. Well no, that weaving firm that’s still down there.

R - Edmondson’s?

Yes, there's a, what's the name of the fellow that's running it? Is it, is he called Mr Brooks or Mr Crook or something?

A – No, it'll be …

Manager for ‘em. They tell me he is a very good bloke, they tell me its a ...

R - Oh now wait, it's, they’ve just got in. Sneath used to be the manager, shed manager there at one time, now he has finished. Now they’ve got ., who is it they've got on? But they’re in like a specialised mill, they’ve only about .. what, 80 looms now. But there were a write up about

(500)

their cloth not long since in the paper. Didn’t they take it [their cloth] on an expedition? Was it on this last climbing that was done?

Oh they could have done, I don’t know Jim.

R - Well there were a write up in t’paper about it but it's all specialised cloth down at Edmondson’s.

Anyway, the point is that Barnoldswick, when you came back, could still be said to be a cotton manufacturing town. I mean, without .. I'm not going to start reckoning the number of looms up now but there were still a fair number of looms in Barnoldswick and to some extent things would be, apart from Rover and part of Butts being taken up with somebody else, things would be very similar to what they were before the war. Now, what I'm working round to is, you came back to Nutters. Do you think that the attitude of .. of course we’ll be talking about Wilfred now won't we. Wilfred Nutter. Do you think Wilfred's attitude towards the cotton industry was any different after the war than it was before?

R - No. No it wasn’t Stanley.

I remember you once saying about Wilfred that you didn't think that Wilfred could ever imagine the day…

R - When there’d be a shortage of weavers.

When there'd be a shortage of weavers.

R - Or put it down as labour for the weaving ...

Yes that’s it, yes.

R- And the ancillary labour that were going to be required.

So as far as, as far as Wilfred was concerned …

R- He couldn't see any, as far as Wilfred were concerned Stanley, he couldn't see anything .. taking labour for any other labour which were going to he used, apart from textiles. He couldn’t see such as engineering becoming the main thing in this town.

Yes, that's it.

R- He’d no foresight regarding the weavers because as far as Wilfred thought about them, they were just gun fodder for the looms..

Yes, that’s it. Now there’s something comes in with that, something that Ernie said about when he came back after the war. He said that the biggest surprise that he got was the fact that weavers were now being treated as human beings, he said they needed weavers.

R- Well…

And one thing he mentioned in particular was about Widdups where he went. Aye, he did a bit at Bouncer and then he went to Widdups and he were at Widdups 11 years after the war. He said they actually had a woman coming round with a trolley for tea, with tea for the weavers. And he said things like that were unheard of. Now would you say that the attitude towards the weavers, you know, as distinct from Wilfred’s attitude, was the attitude towards the weavers any different up at Bancroft than it had been before the war?

R- Oh no, they still kept the same old attitude at this firm Stanley and it's gone on through the ages.

(550)
(25 Min)

Yes, aye. Well they're still at it to this day aren't they?

R- They still have the same old, well, take it now Stanley, as I can see it, they’d nobody with any push here or any foresight. They wore contented to do their time out and that's what they were satisfied with.

When you say ‘they’, who do you mean? The managers?

R- Well I mean such as W.E. [Wilfred] Now he had a son that wasn’t interested in textiles, this is why Wilfred sold out, and that was when he sold out in 1948 to the Leigh Manufacturing Company. Now then, there was…

I’m just going to interrupt you there because I want you to talk about something that I don't think you'd talk about if I didn’t put it to you. Now, I think that from the conversations I've had with you and from what you know yourself, I mean, you are not daft Jim, Wilfred had little ideas about you from time to time and I know, I’m pretty sure of that from some of the things that you’ve told me. You know, you mentioned that you were always being put on different jobs, you know, before the war. Now, when you came back after the war, I mean, to me, it was fairly obvious, you've just said it, Wilfred had nobody to follow him, and I think in some ways that Wilfred, this in only pure supposition, I think meself that Wilfred would have been a lot happier if he’d had you for a son.

R - Well now, that's funny because Wilfred said that he’d never have sold out if his son had been as interested in working in textiles as what I were.

Yes. Now, now, this is the thing that I’m trying to get at because, as I say I never knew Wilfred, but .. I mean, I know enough about him from the enquiries that I've made to know what sort of bloke he was. And I know very well, knowing what sort of a bloke you are, I know that you and Wilfred would have had a lot in common. Now how did he, was there any evidence of that when you came back after the war and started working here, in the treatment you got off Wilfred? Tell me about that.

R - Oh yes, you see …I could have still, when I come back out of the army, I were offered a professional cricket contract for two year in Scotland. Now at that time, we came to one period where things were a bit sticky, after the war. Now then, when I’m put on the dole Stanley, I don't like that, I didn't want to be unemployed, in fact I couldn't afford to be unemployed. So I thought “Well I'm not standing for that, I’m looking for a fresh job.”
(600)
So I put this to Vernon Nutter who were the manager and he said he couldn't give me a decision, I’d have to see Uncle Wilfred, which were Wilfred Nutter. So I met Uncle Wilfred and he were prepared to guarantee me full employment, 52 weeks a year, as long as long as I was here, to keep me here instead of going on this professional cricket contract.

What year were that Jim?

R- Nineteen forty seven.

And what would your wage be then?

R- Well my wage Stanley, I couldn’t, I wouldn’t like to say but…

Roughly.

R- Roughly, happen about £4 a week, £4 sommat a week.

And what job were you doing then?

R - Well I'd be drawing a bit then, more you know?

Yes.

R- So what I .. more warps I got through and the more wage I had. Your wage were reckoned up on the number of ends you did per week.

You were still on piece work.

R - On piece work.

There was no basic wage,

R - No basic wage you were still on piece work.

Still no basic wage after the war.

R - Still no basic wage, these are the things you see that they couldn't face. Well I’ll just give you an instance; .. I worked next to a cripple so I lifted him his warps in. Now, in some cases warps for tacklers, put onto the trucks to take into the weaving shed, were badly placed. So with me being the youngest up there, they used to always say to me “Give us a lift Jim” So I naturally gives them a lift, but all the time I'm away from my frame I'm not drawing ends, which affected my wage. So I went and saw Mr Nutter about this. Reply I got from asking him if he couldn't put me on standing wages, first reply I got was “Well if you are away from your buffet say two minutes Jim, book that two minutes on a piece of paper and reckon all the two minutes, or whatever time it is at the end of the week, hand them into the office, and then we'll reckon it up and see how much you're going to lose.” And this is the whole attitude about Nutters, it's hard to believe but it is so.

I just find it .. well, I mean, I’m laughing, it's…

R- So I, I've studied this over a few weeks and I thought “I'm a mug, I’m still going to be wasting me time writing on bits of paper, and how do I go on if I can't find me paper?” So I thought bugger this, I’m having a right do! So eventually we all finished up on standing wages not just me. All the others benefited by it.

(30 Min)

Yes, now tell me something about that. I assume that after the war you were in the union. Were you?

R- No. Oh no, this were a non-union place Stanley.

(65O)

Oh I see, Wilfred didn't believe in unions.

R- No, and anybody that had owt to do with strikes before the war would never have woven at Nutters.

Is that right?

R- That’s correct.

Aye, and he had a long memory?

R- Oh he had for owt like that.

Aye. Now that brings me round to something else on the same subject. I was very surprised when Billy Brooks said to me that the first time in all the years that he'd been taping anybody mentioned joining the union to him was in 1943 just before he finished. I thought that there'd been a tapers union [for years]... Mind you, this wasn’t here of course, this was at Westfield, yes, Westfield.

R- That’s right.

That’s it, Brooks. And I was under the impression that the unions had got a far tighter hold on the industry before then.

R- Well, they had in some areas which were Nelson. Nelson were a strong union area even before the war Stanley.

Yes it was. Yes.

R- Before the war.

Now would you say that Barlick was behind…

R- Barlick was behind them you see Stanley.

What would the reason be for that? Was there a reason?

R- I don't know what the reason would be but if you… as soon as they say to you “How about joining the union?” and you’d say “Bugger the union” that were just passed off. But you say that now and hell fire, you’d be out of work. I have to be in the union.

Now?

R- Now. I’m in the Drawer’s Union but in my job as manager of James Nutters I shouldn’t be drawing warps should I?

Oh no, definitely not.

R- Definitely not, I shouldn’t be drawing.

But if you didn’t…

R- But if I didn't, weren’t a member of the Drawer’s Union, I couldn't draw one single end at this firm now.

And yet, we must remember that people a long time hence'll be listening to this tape, I’ll make a statement now that’ll perhaps make them laugh in a hundred years, but the fact is that if you were working at a union shop, on a normal union rate of pay, the number of warps you draw with your wage would actually be more than what you get now as manager. I mean we’ve argued this many a time. Now that is an anomaly, it must seem so to people who listen to this tape, but that’s a fact isn’t it?

R - Yes, that is a fact, Stanley.

That if you were doing nothing else but draw warps you could, .. on a union rate you could make more money than you get now.

R- Make more money than I'm drawing now.

Yes, which in a way is an indictment of the industry isn't it. It’s an indictment of the way the industry is run. I mean, a man should be worth his wage.

R- That’s right.

Yes, how about the weaver’s union?

R - Well .. Weaver’s Union has never been as strong I should say in Barnoldswick than what it is now under Raymond Hill. And yet there’s weavers in this place that's not in t’Union and they've no intention of joining the Union and they're not forced to join Stanley. But let them move out of here to say Colne, or Nelson, they won't get a start unless they were in the union. But Barnoldswick, I don't know why, it's never been a really strong union place. You take it, wages in Barnoldswick has been lower for years.

Yes. Well now .. I was just going to say something about that. Would you say that it was true to say, from what I've seen of the disputes in Barnoldswick, from what I’ve been able to gather from different sources, I don’t really see that the Weavers Union has ever done the weavers any good in Barlick. I mean, can you think in your experience, you know, going back to 1935, of any time when the Weavers Union have actually brought the weavers through a dispute and gained ...

R - When the weavers have been better off? No. All the disputes that I can remember in this area has never benefited work people. They've always come under-side.

That's the impression I've got.

(35 min)

R – Yes. A lot of people lost their jobs through it.

Now when you say a lot of people lost their job through it, in what way?

R - Because in the old days they thought they'd this Communist attitude because biggest part of strikes was caused by one certain lot of people. It was the same lot that caused these strikes. And like anything else, Stanley, you get people like sheep, they'll follow won't they? They don't think for themselves, they let other folk think and then they can be talked into anything. Now then, this is why you've got these here scuffles at these mills when we’d the strikes in this area. But there were none of them that had caused this here, they were .. when the police were down at Kelbrook, they were back in Barlick. Then it were the ordinary workers, not real hard and fast union people, that were getting thumped with the police and such as that. And then .. bosses aren’t silly, they know whose who, so within a week they' d be out of the firm, they'd have no job at all.

(750)

You mean the people, the agitators? And who were they in general? I mean, are you thinking of somebody in particular or just …?

R - Well .. I can give you an instance. We’d a fellow at Kelbrook, a fellow called Tom Whittaker who were an overlooker at Dotcliffe Mill where there were a scuffle up there with the strike.

When was this?

R- Well it'll be round about what, 1930 sommat, I can't remember just Stanley. And he stopped out you know and booed folk that were going in and that fellow never tackled again as long an he lived in this area. You take a fellow across there, a fellow called Preston, he's another brother. What the heck. It isn’t Alan Preston, what’s his other brother’s name? He used to be a weaver at Bancroft here. After the upset, he never wove no more for James Nutter, they put him down as a Communist, but he weren't a Communist.

An if say, Nutters had somebody in like that, somebody on the looms, and they wanted them out. What means could they use to get them out?

R - Well you could find all sorts of complaints Stanley. Bad time keeping which is easy enough, or going in the toilet smoking which wasn't allowed. Least bit of a thing and they were cracked on and they’d just be given notice, they wouldn’t be given notice, they’d be stopped there and then. Least bit of a fault, it wouldn’t be worth while stopping at a place like that Stanley, they could make them, their lives, a hell.

That’s it. Make their lives a misery.

R - They'd be that frightened of sending a piece of cloth in.

Aye, wear them down.

R - Wear them down. Because, you bear in mind Stanley, if you sack one you’d always another for the looms. That's what we've been talking about, there were always this here gun fodder.

That’s it, this is before the war.

R- Before the war you could have up to 20 stood in the warehouse, from half, half past six in morning for seven o'clock start.

Aye, tramp weavers and what not. Weavers aye.

R – Yes.

Aye. Anyway, after the war the queue of tramp weavers were no longer there.

R- After, no.

So there'd be times after the war when Nutters at Bancroft would be in a position where they had more looms than weavers?

R- Now, well … When I came back, Stanley there’d be roughly about 876 loom running. Now bear in mind that some looms had gone out, there wasn’t 1150. Actually there were more than 1152 because they were storing some looms there on top of some more from Nutters at Wellhouse. Well they got going again. Now them looms were in storage here. So when they come to take then looms back out there was less than 1152 looms in this place.

(800)

Anyway, there were about 867 here I think.

R - I don't know, I think there were 876 at most.

Aye, sommat like that.

R- And then I can remember it dwindling down to 789 one time. And it kept gradually dwindling, either with people becoming old, and you mostly got young girls in then from school. Now there were rumours starting about Rolls Royce going to take such as Bankfield over [I think Jim meant Wellhouse] which would be run with Rover. So old men were so anxious to get out, which meant they lost one or two men .. as they went labouring to Rolls Royce.

(40 Min)

Now when you say that, do you mean weavers wanting to get out of … No Bankfield were already Rover, that's it, no it couldn't have been that. When you say men wanting to get out, you mean get out of textiles into Rolls Royce?

R- Textile yes. Into Rolls Royce.

Aye that's it. Yes.

R- So gradually the workforce starts decreasing slowly for a start, but it is, it’s decreasing Stanley.

And this was at the time when the slogan was ‘Britain's bread hangs by Lancashire’s thread’. That’s it.

R – Thread, that's it, yes.

So, I mean this must have been obvious.

R- You see, you could take it now Stanley, all .. cotton and employers thought of then was production, getting it off the looms irrespective of what the cloth were like. As long as they were getting yardage and charging for it that were it because it were so badly needed was cotton after to war. Right, school leavers start coming in. They used to bring young girls in, within three weeks them young girls would be on looms of their own.

How old would they be?

R- Fourteen. They’d be on looms in three weeks of their own Stanley.

How many?

R- Four looms, leave them with four looms. Well hell fire, this is why textiles is in such a state today Stanley, because them at that age were never taught properly how to weave. And the bosses, even in them days Stanley, they couldn't see their way to keep them learning a full period of at least three months, because it were costing them money. So they got them on four loom as quickly as they could even if it were to produce rubbish, which they could get shut of.

What year would this be about, you know? Let's just put a date…

R- Pooh, about 1948-49.

Yes, so there was still a good market for cotton?

R- There was still a good market Stanley, yes.

I've heard you on about this before, about this being one of the reasons why, in your opinion, the industry did decline. Because of the way them trainees were brought in, the sort of people they had to follow on. And the good weavers that you've got now who would be about that age, at that time, what's the reason why they are better weavers than most of the others?

(850)

R- Well, because they probably have .. Well, take Mary Cawdray now Stanley. Your best weavers now is somebody who were in this mill before the war. You can name them, Mary Cawdray, Olive Whittingham, she's an oldish one.



Mary Cawdray.

Is olive .. ?

R- Well she’ll be knocking on will Olive, she is no chicken.

Is that right?

R- Yes.

She must have her hair dyed.

R- Same as, take Martha Edmondson who died a few years back at eighty sommat. Now she, at her age, could produce more than what these young uns are producing now.

Well, I think we said at the time that if Martha hadn’t had to stop she wouldn’t have died would she, she’d have kept going. { She retired and died a few months after.]

R- She’d have kept going you see.

Aye that’s it, how old was she when she finished weaving, she was…

R- Oh, going into 80. And there weren't anybody with cleaner looms and a better cloth producer than Martha.

Well, look at the mother in law, Mary Hepworth, I mean, Christ she used to polish her looms.

R- You see, you could sell their cloth to anybody Stanley. You could send any of that cloth to any customer and not be frightened of anybody complaining about it. But not now. You see, you get learners after the war, say 1948, well, they’re only 30 year old now, aren't they?

Nineteen forty eight, seventy eight, thirty years, they’re forty four. Fourteen when they started.

R- Nineteen forty, well nineteen forty … it's only nineteen seventy eight now isn’t it?

That's thirty year on.

R – That’s, there’s only, there's thirty year here Stanley.

Aye but…

R – Well, you take in there, you take such as, oh I can, I can, I could name you some of them in there Stanley that'll never produce cloth as long as they have a hole in their arse.

Aye, yes.

R- And look at their age, they'll be between thirty five to forty.

Yes.

R - They were never learned properly in the first place, they’d never a fair crack at the whip. Weaving, especially with a Lancashire loom Stanley, is a very highly skilled job, there's more to it than just saying, oh .. she is a weaver.

Not just shuttling?

R- No, oh no.

Ad yet wouldn't it be true to say that weaving has never really been either regarded or paid as a skilled job?

R- No, never. You take in now Stanley .. you know this for a fact that there's people gone out of this place now, they've gone to Rolls Royce as a cleaner, they get a long brush, a mop and a bucket and a tea trolley, and they’re what you call a highly skilled cleaner and they'll draw £52.50 per week.

Aye, as soon as they go.

R - Within two hours they're skilled. You'll have somebody that's been in here 40 years and they'll not come out of that place with £46.

(900)

Gross.

R - Gross. and they've been in it all their life.

There again, that is another indictment of the industry. Actually I think meself that that is one of the big things and I want to do more, more about that with you. A friend of mine has a saying and I think it’s a true one; “If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.”

R- You do.

And I think that’s just about the size of it.

R- That’s the size of it.


SCG/05 November 2002
7487 words




LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/08

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON SEPTEMBER 20TH 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.



[It is perhaps worth mentioning that at the time this tape was made both Jim and I were under considerable stress in our personal lives. His wife had terminal cancer and I was losing my marriage. This information might help in any assessment of what we were saying, in future years.]

Now the interesting thing about this tape tonight is that's it's made the day after Jim and I found out that we are both going to be redundant on 22nd December when Bancroft shed weaves out. So tonight we are going to talk about redundancy and the way we look at the job and it'll follow the last tape on nicely because in the last tape if you remember Jim, was when we were talking about weavers, you know, about … So first, how did you find out about us shutting down? Let's have that.

R- How I found out?

Yes.

R - Or how do you ... how could I see it coming?

Well no, the actual mechanics of it first, how did you get the official word?

R- Well I got the official news from the managing director, Mr P J Birtles. He’d been hanging about all morning, but I think he plucked up the courage to tell me after lunch. So as soon as he mentioned this he says “Well, I’m sorry to tell you Jim, we are closing down.” “Oh yes?” was my remark. “Aren’t you shocked?” I say, “I'm not shocked.” “You are not shocked?” “No.” “I thought you would have been.” So from that I says “Well, we’d better have Stanley in and tell Stanley about this.” So you were brought into the conversation.



Peter Birtles, managing director at Bancroft.

Aye that's it. And as you know I had a job, I had to bite me bloody tongue to stop myself saying sommat to him. Aye .. what was it he said? I think we've done very well to keep going as long as we have!

R- ‘I think we've done well to keep going as long as we have.’ So, other remarks could have been passed but .. which wouldn't have been pleasing to his ear. And we thought ... Least said soonest mended.

That’s it aye. And Merry Christmas and the last one out please turn the lights off.



R- And lock the gates.

And lock the gates.

R- As though, it won't make much difference. If they want owt they get it. Break in and get it.

(100)

Aye. Anyway, of course, we’ve, been expecting this for a long while. We’ve seen the writing on the wall.

R- We've seen this coming for months and months.

And the signs in the sky… But now then Jim, now it has come, I mean, there is one great thing about it now, we know exactly what’s happening. But the thing is, what I’d like to know now, if you remember last week we were talking about the way they trained weavers after the war, and I know for a fact that your opinion of the present day weavers as compared with the weavers in the old days isn’t very good. Now what bearing do you think that has on the situation that we at Bancroft find ourselves in now. And have you any other thoughts about redundancy in general and the fact that Bancroft’s shutting down in particular?

R- Well, one thing leads to another Stanley, As to redundancy, when you look at it, I thought redundancy, when I started off and it was brought in, redundancy, I thought it were going to be a good thing. But now I think it’s just a, more or less, a catch penny. Redundancy is, and for anybody that's willing to work and put a lot into it, it's a foul word. In this respect, you can see a place where you're working gradually going to the dogs, not through your fault but through men that's in higher positions not doing their job as it

(5 Min)
(150)

should be done. In the meantime you can see this coming and it's on your mind all the time. You've other jobs which you could move into, but due to thinking about this redundancy you get a false idea in your head and think well, it's going to be a good thing when I finish. But now it's happened, I shall be one… I shall finish up with top money, but I shall be out of work for 18 months. So whatever that redundancy pay is that I get, that won't keep me for 18 months. And it’s a thing I don’t think I could settle down to, to be re…. unemployed.

I think it’d be as well, bearing in mind that these tapes are hopefully going to be listened to a long while in the future, it’d be just at well to point out that when we talk about redundancy we mean the payment that is made by the firm and the government.

R- Government.

(200)

Together, to people who have been in the service of that firm for longer than 12 months. And for anybody that’s been in employment longer, I don’t know the exact figure but if you have been in employment for a long while you get so much.

R- If you've been, say twenty year.

Yes, that's the maximum, isn’t it?

R- That's the maximum. Now you'll draw a week and a half's payment for every week, which amounts to thirty….

Every year?

R- Every year, that amounts to thirty weeks pay. [Based on twenty years service.] Now then, after you've drawn your redundancy you can sign on, you can also draw related earnings benefit which is two thirds of your wages on unemployment benefit and you'll get tax returned which will make you better of for six months than your ordinary wage. But it isn't that what is a worrying thing, it’s what's going to happen after that's finished isn’t it. This is why you get a sense of false security with redundancy.

Well, as you know Jim, I quite agree with you. I mean we’ve talked about this before. I think that redundancy payments, the way they are paid, I think that a lot of the fault is the way that they're paid. I think that they're… I think that they’re a terrible thing because they encourage people to stop in jobs where they either aren't happy or aren't doing any good. You know, you are waiting for the axe aren’t you. There must be a different way of doing it, but I think the trouble is that the only way that it could he altered would be to give people their redundancy payment, you know, what we call redundancy

(250)

payment now, each time they change their job. And when you think about it, you know there could be a lot said for that, not paying ‘em much but paying you when you changed your job. As long as you didn’t change your job through being sacked, you know or anything like that. There could be a lot in favour of that because you know yourself …

R- There should be a different scheme altogether to that redundancy Stanley.

Yes.

R- Because it's so unfair in some ways. You see a fellow can give his life to one firm..

Let’s have one example here, you tell us about little Fred down in the warehouse.

(10 Min)

R- Well, little Fred, little Fred Cope. Now he makes up 65 in January, now then as soon as he became 64 his redundancy payment starts to decrease by one twelfth.

Yes, every month.

R- Every month, so in fact he’s being penalised by a scheme that they’ve brought out Stanley, which is a very unfair one due to him being 64.

How long has Fred worked here?

R- Now Fred will have worked here I should say round about 12 year. So…

So Fred would have been in for a nice tidy sum.

R- Fred would have been in for a nice tidy sum. But it's 12 year, he'd get paid, he'd get paid for roughly 18 and a half weeks wouldn’t he? Which is a tidy sum for him, but eventually he's going to finish up with nothing, that's for 12 years service. Well, I’ll give you another instance, take it now, you take a fellow like Fred Greenwood

(300)

Aye, Fred’s another one.

R - Now Fred Greenwood would have worked here for Nutters, he'll have worked for Nutters with just one year's break .. In this I’m counting his forces service, which he bloody couldn't help, he were forced to go. He’ll have worked for Nutters from, Nutter family which was all one then, for nearly 49 year; but he had a break of one year. Now he come back to this place in 1949 . Now Fred’s made up 65 in June of this year so Fred Greenwood doesn't get a penny out of this firm and that's for all them years of service.

Yes, which doesn't seem fair.

R- Which doesn’t seem fair.

Anyway, here we are, we're sat here ...

R- But you see, I have done since 1934, now that’s, to me, that's 44 years service. But I’m only being paid for 20 years. And same as we are now, I could have left this firm two or three times, but redundancy held me back.

Yes, I think it’s worthwhile pointing out here that you could have left this firm for a lot more money than you were getting here.

R- For… That’s it yes.

Yes. Anyway look, we've talked about the redundancy payment, let’s

(350)

get down to the nitty gritty now. You tell me in your opinion what it is that's closed us.

R- As I've mentioned at first Stanley, what you need is good men at the top, more so these days. If a cloth buyer wants a price he wants that price within two days, not two or three bloody weeks. Now then, you want better service. What I mean by that is the way bills is paid these days. I know it's altered has all the financial side of the business but you get held up with yarn [supplies] for being late with payment, that's loss of production, that's not a good thing. Now when you get to this position you don’t get the best service out of people you are buying off. Take five or six year back, what you'd got to do then were move with the times, not wait of firms closing down before you got that little bit of progress into your place. Start building on your own initiative with young people and if you got three out of twenty you've done a good job in my opinion. I think you have, these days.

In other words, if you can get three good weavers out of every twenty you start with ..

R- Yes. If you get three out of every twenty young uns you start with, if I get three good weavers I think I've done well. Now then, if you think of that, take for five or six years back, you are going to get a better work force aren't you? But when you rely .. [on what you can get] But as I’m saying Stanley, all that

(400)
(15 Min)

led to more expenditure and money going out. Now this firm has been the tightest firm that I could ever remember for not throwing money away. And they couldn’t see paying to bring young uns, paying them a wage, also giving operatives that were learning them that job extra money, they thought they'd happen be better with a few looms less which to me is all false economy. You also get other things, you get better production by [spending] on your healds, which you use for your warp, you can't weave without healds. But the healds we've sent in there for years have been a disgrace, causing you more stoppages, you've less production, which is all against cloth prices.

And these are all militating against loom efficiency.

R- Loom efficiency, which is cloth prices because if you haven’t loom efficiency you’ve got to charge more per yard for that cloth than being an efficient unit.

Tell me something Jim, talking about loom efficiency, because I know that you know about this. First of all one question, what would you say, even under the conditions that we work under here, with weavers carrying their own weft, bad floors, lots of different sorts and all the rest of it, what sort of efficiency, if we had efficient management, would it be possible to get out of these looms. Can you put a figure on it? You know, what would be possible in a well run shed?

R- I really think that what we could produce off them looms is equivalent of any [shed] It just depends on weft and pick.

But percentage efficiency?

R- But percentage efficiency I should say you'd get off Lancashire looms, we should get up to 88%.

And what do you think we have been getting?

R- Getting? I should say about 59 or 60%.

Well now .. I mean, there we are. I mean, that must be… Let me put it this way, I’m taking a very simplistic view because as you know I'll admit to anyone that what 1 don't know about weaving will fill great volumes. But it seems to me that if I had the job of managing a place like this I don’t real1y think that you need to know a lot about weaving to see where the waste has been going on. And it, the two things that have always struck me here have been that it would seem to me that one of the first things that you'd need to do is to try and raise your loom efficiency; and the other thing that it seems to me from a purely, well from cost and production and everything .. try to avoid stop time, but those are the two bugbears we've had aren't they?

R- This is it, this is what I stated at first Stanley. In some cases as you know, I've had yarn stopped either in weft form or twist form which are run through the size for making weavers warps.
[One of the big problems we faced was that Bancroft hadn’t enough working capital to be able to pay for yarn as it came in. This was always a problem but was made much worse in the late 70’s by the fact that firms such as Courtaulds instituted a policy whereby they expected to be paid for yarn within a fortnight of delivery. If they didn’t get the payment they stopped yarn deliveries. At the same time they instructed all their branches to delay payment for cloth for three months. We were actually shown an internal memorandum which instituted this policy. Because they were the biggest yarn suppliers and cloth buyers they could get away with this. Other firms which bought cloth such as Tootal’s did the same thing.]

Yes. I think we’d better just make that clear Jim that when you say that you’ve had yarn stopped, the thing has been that due to the fact that as fast as this firm has made money it’s been taken out by the parent company, we haven't had enough capital to be able to keep the flow of yarn going into the factory which means that from time to time there are weavers standing with looms, perhaps an odd one loom, two looms, perhaps three looms out of a set of ten with no warp in, and they get paid for that loom don't they.

R- Yes, so what you are paying for is what we call ‘stopped time’ which is weavers, in lieu of having nothing off in cloth off that loom, we pay a certain amount of money for her less production on that. But we had no cloth production so we are losing both ways.

Yes. Well, we once worked it out didn't we that one loom stopped was taking the profit off six running.

R – Yes. Now this is what I say, and everything else to make such an inefficient unit. Now it you got an efficient unit, and what I call a happy unit, I don't like being bombastic with folk, but if you get a happy unit you can produce, that’s if you've got your cash flowing which is bringing

(500)

you materials in to put into them looms. Unless you've got that you might as well finish.

Now, Birtles made a statement to me yesterday, I don’t know whether it’s right or not, so I’m going to ask you. He says that in point of fact he would have no difficulty in getting orders to keep these looms going, he blames it on the weavers.

R- He talks a lot of bloody crap. They don't need to tell me. If he could get a load o£ orders why hasn't he got me a load of orders to pay for

(20 Min)

all this stopped time that I've been paying, over a period of months not weeks now, to fill them looms up.

Well you know what I think about that. I think that .. I’m not saying that it was a concrete decision, but I think that the decision to run Bancroft down was made about 12 months ago.

R- Well, we've seen it coming longer than 12 months now.

Oh Christ, aye.

R- You see on this, this is what I'm saying Stanley, all the gun fodder had finished. Now they were in that position, with the time it's going to take to make a weaver, another 12 months probably elapsed. Now they were going out of this place faster than what they were coming in, so your looms is decreasing you could say monthly.

Yes, which is the thing that I know you've been hammering away at for the last …

R- Eh, I’ve been hammering at it for years Stanley.

Well you've been on, as long as I've been here you've been on about it. I’ve been here what, five years next July.

R- You see, there's nobody had any foresight, them at the head, they took no notice of me or they didn't want to entertain it because it were going

(650)

to be money spent then and they couldn’t see that it were going to come back in at a later date. They wanted, if they were going to pay sommat out, there and then they wanted a return straight away, which, when you’re teaching people a skilled job, you don't get. You wouldn't get no return out of a young un for, say nine to twelve months but they couldn’t, they didn't want that. If they were going to lay a penny out they wanted twopence back which is an impossibility with skilled labour.

Which is this old same thing that we were talking about, about the manufacturer’s attitude after the war, especially the manufacturers here after the second world war isn't it? They just couldn't see.

R- Yes, just the same thing, they just couldn’t see Stanley that they’d got to do something because there were an industrial revolution coming to this area which were engineering and that where it ought to …as soon as they got into engineering they found that it were better money, easier job. They saw straight away, them that's gone in, they're going to get somebody else they know in, weaving’s a dirty word, no security to weaving, family before me were in it. Pooh, stopping, working a week, playing a week, so what security were this weaving! But the old people before Stanley, before the war, thought that this would go on for ever and ever, this gun fodder in this area. They never thought engineering round this area would get as big as what it is. And this is what’s happened with this lot.

Now this is very interesting to me because, there was somebody asked me a question the other day, and it’s a question I’ve never been asked before. We were in Manchester and coming up through Oldham. It was Mary Hunter asked me, anyway we were coming through Rochdale you know, and she said to me, “What are those mills doing here?” Obviously she realises that these mills now, most of them have gone out, but she said “What were the mills doing here?” I said “These were spinning Mary.” And she said “Why isn't there any weaving down here?” I said that's a very good question. “Really I can't say as I've ever heard anybody give the answer to it. But it seems to me that weaving was built on the fact that there were weavers there before the industry started” The weavers were already here weren't they?

R- They were already here, they were hand loom weavers Stanley you see?

That’s it. And over the years there was that tradition of weaving. And I mean Ernie Roberts came out with it. He said “Do you know, when I was in the army I used to dream about weaving.”

R- You see, you take it now Stanley, a hand loom in them days, they could have them in an out place couldn't they. And everybody did a bit of hand weaving more or less, so weaving is in this area in a fashion, but you go farther down into Lancashire, it was all spinning in a bigger way you know. Right, that became the most … don’t forget there is weaving, there's a lot of weaving there Stanley, but not the same as it were round this area.

Oh yes. And then of course, I mean it was obvious really when you come to think about it, all the cotton was coming in through Liverpool and Manchester, I mean it ...

R - So it's .. and, and as they take bigger amounts of raw cotton and they haven’t as far to…

Yes, shift it, so …

R - Shift it, with horses and carts.

They had, that was a logical place to spin.

R - So that’s, the nearer Manchester and far better it were for them.

(25 Min)

Anyway, we’re getting away from Bancroft a little bit, but not so far away from Bancroft. So now then, what's going to happen now? Now we’re [on the way out] will we have any more sets to tape?

R- More, we have sets to tape.

Now that will be for, to fulfil cloth contracts.

R- Contracts, I’ll have to weave them cloth contracts out. That'll take me about 12 weeks which they've notices up to that date which is 22nd December.

Now you tell me what'll happen now. As I see it one of the first people who will actually get …

R- But bear in mind anybody, there's some who'll be probably, I'm on a 12 week notice which is the limit. Some will be on five weeks, there's some will be on six weeks notice you see? Gradually cutting staff down so as they'll not pay more money out than they need to. Now anybody that doesn’t fulfil that contract of either five or like meself 12 weeks, I can lose my redundancy. So if I'd another job offered to me and I said Could I leave? and they said no, if I went of me own accord they could and would stop my redundancy pay.

(650)

Of course in that respect there is only one thing certain “Stanley will be here till the end”

R- Well, I should be here to the end.

Yes. Oh, by the way, I had Newton up today. I told him, I said I’m not stopping the bloody engine, you can stop it, I don’t want to stop it.

R- What did he say?

He were a bit touched really, I said “I’m only a bloody newcomer.”

R - Well as we’ve talked Stanley, it didn't come as big a blow to us. We’d softened the blow over happen 18 months.

Oh yes, well aye.

R- So when he said to me “Aren’t you shocked?” It were no shock to me and it won’t be any shock to you.

No. It’s not a shock but it’s sad.

R- It’s sad.

Very sad.

R- Because my life’s been Bancroft. 44 years. Like .. I shall be a bit touched when it stops at last, at Friday, the last day. I might shed a tear, I don’t know.

Aye, it’s been done before. But anyway, as we were saying.

R- What you said to me, what is redundancy, and to me it's a dirty word. As far as I’m concerned it is. Because when I think back .. I’m going to be happen two or three thousand pounds down with the opportunity I had before, easy.

Oh I should say so, definitely. In other words if you had left say five or six years ago when you had a good job offered, the difference between the pay you'd have got in that job, to retirement and what you'll get in this job plus your redundancy would be, probably you’d be on three or four thousand more there at least. Because you know as well as I do you could have been on a thousand a year more a long while since.

R- But that were best when he says to me “Do you want a reference, Jim?” I said “No, not at my age.”

Oh I didn’t know about that, is that what P.B. said to you? Did you want a reference! I should think he ought to be asking you for one.

R- I said “No, not at my time of life.”

I feel we should just point out for posterity that he’s also written his own bloody notice out, hasn’t he. I wouldn’t pay him with bloody washers. Anyway, we are understandably .. I mean I’m speaking now to the people who’ll listen to this tape a long while hence, we are understandably just a little bitter about the management, but I can assure you, not without cause.

R- Well .. over the years Stanley, I haven't been.. I've had a... this is what did me with Sidney.

Yes, Sidney Nutter.



Sidney Nutter.

R- Sidney were a no-mover. This were going to do him his time, and Sidney knew when he were going to retire. Admittedly it came sooner than what we thought it were going to do, but not much. But he had it all planned out

(30 Min)

when he were going to retire. Now as long as this were [running], he were content to let it gradually dwindle which were going to do him his time. That's the attitude of, I should say the Nutter family, [that’s how they] looked at it for years. You take Vernon Nutter as worked here as manager for years. He'd an honorary managing directorship, he were the same, no interest, no initiative, no ‘Let's get on’. No, let's plod quietly on, we are all right. No, anybody that come with any ideas were either .. well they weren’t shouted down but they were just ignored.

Oh well, you know we’ve both had a share of that haven't we.

R- And this could have been the best and happiest unit there were in the town because it's ideal .. everything about this place is ideal for ‘em. If it's possible to make money with Lancashire looms never mind automatics, [it could have been done here.]

(750)

Yes, well, you know I’ve always said Jim, and I’ll say it now and I don’t care what anybody says, if you can't make money in textiles with a big decent mill like this, low rated property, all your plant and machinery written off years since, no capital overheads, half price power [Shortly before the mill closed we were possibly going to be bought out by Malcolm Dunphie from Rochdale and as part of the negotiation I was asked to do a costing of the price of power from the engine as opposed to electricity from the public supply. The result was that we were on approximately half the cost with the engine.] from a plant that's in .. top notch order, it’s in good nick is the plant, there's nothing wrong with the plant, and with a labour force which with all their imperfections have been bloody marvellous because I mean, they’ve put up with conditions in there that, I don’t knew anybody, I don't know anybody else that’d put up with … But the thing is, what I'm just saying is that if you can't make money in textiles under conditions like that there is no bloody hope for the Skelmersdales of this world. [This is a reference to the fact that Courtaulds had tried to drag the weaving industry kicking and screaming into the 20th century by building a completely new weaving unit in the new town of Skelmersdale in West Lancashire. It eventually failed.]

R- I'm going back happen six or seven years now Stanley. Well, Bancroft shed must have had the best workforce in Lancashire to put up with conditions what they did then. They were worse off than what they were in what they call ‘the bad old days’ when they were running four and five looms. I mean to say, even on four and five looms, they'd no extraordinary thick weft then but now, when they're running ten looms the weft load is tremendous yet they're still carrying on with the same old fashioned way of no weft carrier, no trap-hand. So every weaver has to bring their own weft, take their own traps [A ‘trap’ is a loom fault which results in yarn breakages.] up and even in some cases go upstairs for weft. If we have been held up with weft and we can only just get to winding it they still want weft so they'd have to go up steps for it [To the winding department.] which is all lost production Stanley. So the workforce here, they've had the best in Lancashire because there is no other place, nobody that'll put up with that. And cleanliness of t’place, it's filthy, filthy, they've just absolutely bled Bancroft Mill.

I think that's a fair statement. I think that's fair statement and I'm speaking as somebody that's really from outside the industry. I mean I’ve only been here five years, and that’s just how it seems to me. I've never seen, and you've heard me say this before, when I first came to work here, I come here and I'd had twenty years on the road, on long distance haulage. And somebody asked me one day, they said “What do you think about Bancroft, Stanley?” As a matter of fact it was Sidney Nutter. He said “What do you think about it, how are you liking…” I said “Well, I’ll tell you what it is Sidney. It's a bloody holiday camp!”

(800)

And he looked at me, he was surprised. He said “What do you mean?” I said “Well, I think I've been in more mills, factories, refineries, warehouses, docks, you mention it, I've been in it, than anybody else in the shed. Than everybody else in the shed put together.” Because me job you see, I used to be going in and out of factories all day. And I said “I've never seen anything like this place. They come in when they want to, they go out when they want to. If they want to go and pick the wife up from work or go and do a bit of shopping, they pop off out. Or if they're going to the bookies or if they're going to get a bloody hair cut, anything, they can go out.” I said “Mind you, I realise you’ve got to run the place like that because the conditions are so bloody terrible.” It wasn't possible for them to discipline the workforce even if they wanted to.

(35 Min)

R- That’s it. If I'd have clamped down and stopped everybody that were doing that, where were me replacements, who were going to work under them conditions Stanley? Nobody.

Yes. In other words if the firm wanted to run by the book, they would have had to have done a hell of a lot of things.

R- They’d got to …

They'd have to, they'd have to have a factory…

R - They'd got to have a factory that come in with working like to the book and all.

That's it, yes.

R - I've got, you've got to have conditions to that Stanley.

Yes. But there’s one thing I’d like to mention here, because I think you are as baffled as I am. Now, we are living in an age when, and here again I’m talking to people in a hundred years, and I think they'll find, I think one of the things that they'll find the most difficult to understand is that in 1978 we've had recent legislation such as the Health and Safety at Work Act. Obviously we’ve had the factory Inspectors for over a hundred years. How is it possible for a firm to run a factory in the state that this is in with, and if I'm wrong you stop me .. unsafe floors, unguarded machinery ..

R- No I can stop you in your tracks. You mention to me how often that factory inspector has been here. Now then, I know of a meeting that went on which I'm not supposed to do but I do, and there were unions involved in it. Now when they come to look at the age limit of this place they thought well, two year…

Oh you mean the average age of the workforce, yes.

R - Of the workforce here. That place'll have finished. And that’s worked out somewhere near right.

So in other words…

(850)

R- So .. in other words Stanley I should think this place has been kept going on this footing because only up to happen six or seven week back, factory inspector came didn't he?

Aye, because the area had changed and we got the Lancashire factory inspector.

R- And we’d got the Lancashire factory inspector in. And yet…

We must just explain that. In 1976 there were these boundary changes which meant that whereas before, Bancroft at Barnoldswick had always come under the Yorkshire area of the factory inspectorate, in other words they came from I think it was Leeds didn't they, or Bradford, I forget which…

R - That's right, Leeds area.

Due to the boundary changes, we came under the Lancashire executive, the Lancashire branch of the factory inspectors. Now they only got round to coming to see us about six or seven weeks since didn't they.

R- That’s all.

And I can remember that young fellow’s face as he walked out of the engine house, he said “I must bring my superior down here. I didn’t know we’d got anything like this!” And that man was absolutely baffled, he couldn't understand ..

R- And yet, when I got that report back there was nothing really, the place was… could do with a brush down, but there was nothing really serious. Now then, I know for a fact, another firm they go in to, that firm's absolutely spotless and they pull that firm to bits does the factory inspector. And they're never away from there, they make that firm’s life a bloody misery.

Yes. Aye, I think meself they realize that they’re dealing with a dinosaur here, they're dealing with something which is outside the scope of the legislation. And this mill, it always has been hasn't it?

R- It has, it always has been. Yes.

It's been something on its own …

R- If anybody come and look round they couldn't credit what went on here could they?

No.

R- You wouldn't think there were any type of end product. Anybody that come in at that shed door, what I call shed door, and just looked, at first glance in that shed they wouldn't think it possible for any end product to come out of it and be made into money. It’s that chaotic. There’s streamers from one lamp to another, that's just for the cost of having the place swept down, and the only time that can he done is at week end.

Yes, which is over time.

R - Which is over time. So they don't bother sweeping down because it's money outlay again.

Aye that's it. Napoo.

R - And there is nothing brought in with that, only a big heap of dust that comes outside, which they can't sell. So they don't do it. Well, take even, take toilets ..

Well now, you are on to something now. Somebody once saw a photograph that I’d done of the urinal in the gentlemen's lavatories to give them a polite name and they said to me, they said “What the bloody hell did you

(900)

take a picture of that for?” I said well, you tell me the last time you saw urinal in that condition! And I mean, they bloody smell.



R- Well this is it. And same as .. just imagine, you're putting old weft box, weft box lids up to an old iron grid to stop draft coming in, and the winds that blow in, and you've to put that up as a deterrent for the weather, keep trying to keep the weather out.

Which we should just point out, them toilets are built on the old fashioned principle, if you keep them cold enough in winter nobody will go and have a smoke.

R- That was the idea.

So there is just a big cast iron grill instead of a window. That's it, yes. And that is something which always, never fails to amaze me, every winter Jim, how come those bloody toilets didn't freeze up more than they did.

R - Well I never knew Stanley.

I don't know.

R- Because however anybody went in a toilet there .. I mean, they must have frozen to the bloody seat, wicked, they don't have that in bloody prison never mind in a work place do they?

If a prison inspector were to go round and find conditions such as those toilets in a prison, I have no doubt about it there would be hell to pay.

R - Well just look, just look at the tea kettle where they've to brew their tea, it isn't fit for bloody pigs. And yet it's accepted, it’s been going like that for years.

Sixty odd year.

R - Never change. It's amazing however they got away with this.

When you think about it Jim, I think it's about bloody time we shut isn't it really. I’m serious.

R - Well yes. In a way it is. It's because… well I can't say, I’m fast for words.

I know what you mean.

R- It's just bloody ridiculous how anybody could run a business and still have made money out of a bloody place like this. It's right what the group chairman once said to me, which is Mr K. O. Boardman. “Where there's bloody muck there's money!” but he is a bloody liar because there isn’t, there’s more bloody muck than money.

There is now, aye.

R- There always were Stanley!.

Yes. But, well I don’t know. It's like you say, words fail us. I don't know and yet the strange thing is…

(950)

R- We’ve only one bloody showpiece here and that's the bloody engine house. And it's always been the same . Up to 1939 that shed in there was absolutely spotless, the floor, and every weaver swept their own looms and used to sweep their back alleys which were where .. at the back of where the weaving machines are. They used to sweep all them out every night before they'd finished, and that muck was collected. And they were spotless. And then after, when we come with more looms and a shortage of loom sweepers .. this is what happens where you get into a state. They always come with bright ideas which is going to improve the industry. It does in a certain way if everybody is prepared to go the whole way with it. But it's no good starting a quarter of the way and leaving three quarters of it not done you see. This is what happens.

So in other words, it's no use introducing the more loom system if you don’t put trap-hands in, weft carriers and proper sweeping arrangements.

R – No, because you are not gaining owt Stanley.

Aye. Well in fact you're going backwards in some ways because you are finishing up with a dirty bloody shed aren't you? Which isn’t any good to anybody. It's no good for health, it's no good for fire risk, it's no good for production because I mean, you know yourself we've had looms that's overheated and, and only for one bloody reason that they've not been swept right and oiled right and bunged up with fluff.

R- Yes but you see, this is what they cry, Stanley, about this trade. If you are a loom sweeper you are a nothing.

Yes well I don't …

R- Which is all bloody wrong.

It is.

R- A loom sweeper's a valuable asset. In that shed he can save you pounds and pounds on spares for them looms. But on wages with the loomsweepers now, a loom sweeper doesn't draw for doing 140 looms, he doesn’t draw £40 here, and that is to sweep every loom and oil them, which you know, if it's done right he can't do that. But who’s going to do that Stanley, for under £40 these days?

(45 Min)

Well I mean, let's talk bloody sense, who the hell's going to go to work for under £40 these days?

R- Well this is it.

I mean, you can draw more on the bloody dole.

R- But this is what they put down. Now I bet if you looked at a list where they come, same as what we're on with now, redundancy. Now they’ll go down that list, you’ve engine driver, boiler man, cloth looker, overlooker, weavers, warehouse man, and eventually you'll come to a loom sweeper .. Now then they'll start off, weaver, skilled. There'll only be one on there that isn’t skilled, happen two, which is such as your labourer that goes in and picks pieces up of the floor and next to them will be the loom sweeper, he is not skilled.

(1000)

Aye. And as I’ve always said, anybody that believes that wants to go and try and sweep a bloody loom and then watch Paraffin Jack sweeping them or old Les Lambert. ‘Cause Les Lambert, he could sweep ten looms while I were doing one.

R- Yes, and they’re swept. He knows what it is about. But you bring somebody in, what they call unskilled labour to sweep them…

Well we've had them.

R- But we've had them.

Get one look at the bloody job and run screaming down the road. What was it that you, what was he, a student or something, he told you he’d do anything for money?

R- He’d do anything for money.

Aye, but loom sweep.

R- But loom sweep. Yes.


SCG/06 November 2002
7319 words



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/09

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON SEPTEMBER 25TH 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.



The pictures we are looking at are the tackler's pictures in the Bancroft folio.

Now, what I want to do this week with you is run through these pictures of Ernie the tackler. Ernie’s already gone through them and told me what he’s doing and given me his description Now obviously, there’ll be little things here and there that Ernie hasn't mentioned that you'll mention. So what I want to do is to go through them again, with you, and we’ll see if we can pick out anything different with you looking at them. Now obviously, the first one, number 34, Ernie’s in the storeroom and he’s having a bit of a spell and rolling a fag but …



R - He’s having a break period here.

That’s it. Now just describe to us, you know, how the tackler system works. You know, with them in the storeroom and all the rest of it.

R - How it works?

Yes. You know, I mean first of all what exactly is a tackler or overlooker?

R- The overlooker is now known as a loom technician, it doesn’t go under the old name of tackler. It is now a technician. Well as I'm looking at this photo now Mr Roberts is in the storeroom, all he’s doing is rolling a cigarette, having his break period which normally applies to overlookers after they’ve come out of the weaving shed. But within happen ten minutes

(50)

there'll be a weaver after him for some loom fault or a band broken, which is attached to your healds which is a shedding part of your process in the weaving mill. And he’ll drop everything, go outside into the weaving shed again, and this is his job daily. So that's as far as I can explain off this picture.

Yes, that’s what you think! Now then, a tackler in the old days… I mean is there any difference between a tackler's job in the old days and, when I say the old days, you know, pre 1939 you know, say pre second world war. Was there any essential difference in the way that a tackler went on with his job then and the way he does it now?

R- Yes, in one sense. Well, I'm talking just before the war, a tackler’s money, what we now call his wage, was based on his weaver’s earnings. But now, irrespective of what the weavers produce off that loom, it doesn’t affect the overlooker’s or tackler’s wage in the least, they've now a fixed rate for running so many looms. And ratings for looms is based on width and what type of cloths those looms will weave. Not just plain looms, if you are on plain looms you’ll have a basic rate of 80 looms per set. In some firms it’s

(100)

100 looms bearing in mind the different widths of the looms. Now if we call, what we’re going to talk about now is a motion loom which weaved a different type of cloth altogether to the plain ones. Your healds is lifting and you’ve to change things under the loom such as what we call the rose wheels, tappets. So that’s an extra job for the overlooker, so dependent on how many motion looms you have in a set, average is 74 now, he’s also cut down and he’ll have a 2% decrease on what we call his normal loom average.

So in other words he'll have less looms for the same amount of money.

R- He’ll have less to follow yes. Or otherwise, the position that we are in, or we had been in, Ernest is still running his set of looms which is 74, but he’s being paid a slightly higher rate having these motion looms and such as that.

How about, they used to get paid walking money here didn’t they?

R- Well you get paid walking money now, that's if you .. a tackler’s set was based from .. loom no 1 we’ll take our place as it is 1 to 10 that's a set of looms in a tackler's eye so they follow on till you work round, till you get to 74 round the shed. Now that'll become another overlooker’s break

(5 Min)

off point, he starts from 75 where the other overlooker finished on 74. He comes in at 75.

Yes. So under that system it was possible for one weaver to have two tacklers?

R- Yes. They did, but it wasn't a good idea because you could have two overlookers in one weaver’s alley, therefore they've less working room for the weaver to move about in that alley. So what we did, if that overlooker

(150)

were going to finish on say 74 and there was say two, three or four looms more to that weaver’s ten looms, we’d pay that overlooker for running them extra ones in that alley so that we didn't have two overlookers looking after one set of looms. And it gives the weaver more room to play about in the alley. So you base it on, take it that you had two overlookers in that alley at one time and she also had the loom sweeper, so how can the weaver weave with three men in her alley doing different jobs.

And was that actually walking money, or am I thinking of something different?

R- No you are thinking of something different when you talk about walking time. Now that is if you’ve got to split sets up, what I mean is, as I've said his looms that stretch from 1 to 74, but as it works on walking money he might not be able to follow them looms on to 74 so what I've got to do to give his 74 total, is break into another set of looms which might be a third of the way up the shed, or if it’s only a loom difference in the next back alley, I’ve got to pay what they call walking time.

Yes, so if, say you had five tacklers and one of them left and obviously you’ve got looms stopping so you split his set up between the other four tacklers that are left, it means that some of those looms are going to be in different parts of the shed to his original set so then that’d be walking money as well, walking time as well wouldn’t it.

R- Walking time. And that, you either pay ’em for that, or their looms is decreased, so you pay them that bit extra on walking time.

(200

And of course nowadays there isn't the… Tell me whether I’m right or wrong, now they've changed the system of paying the tackler it means there isn't the same pressure on the tackler to get cloth off the looms and so there isn’t, he doesn't put pressure on the weavers like he used to do.

R- Oh no, there isn’t the same pressure on anybody now like that, as what we are talking about now. Because he is not what you could call bullying the weaver to get cloth off, and he's not being bullied by what we call shed manager to get that weaver cracking so as she is producing more. It’s easier for the weaver, it’s easier for the overlooker. At one time, you’d get the overlooker, if the weaver went to the toilet, they wouldn’t be in two minutes before the overlooker were banging on the door and opening the toilet door and shouting in “You've been there long enough, out!” And that were the system.

Aye, It's happen a good job, it's happen a good job those days have gone.

R- And as we’ve been talking about looking at this picture here where he is in the storeroom and he is rolling a cigarette ready for a smoke. Admittedly, the overlookers in the old days had a smoke, but they'd to go in the toilet for that smoke, which didn't last two seconds. They were treated no different to the weaver actually. And they used to have benches in the shed where they did most jobs such as putting fur in and fresh shuttle pegs and all that. It were done in the shed.

And those benches are still in the shed aren't they?



Tackler's bench in the shed.

R- Yes. And that saved the weaver having to come out of that shed into the warehouse, into the storeroom and then after, to walk back, they could just go to that tackler's bench and he’d be there.

Aye

R- .And that’ll give you more production.

Now then, where Ernie’s sat in there, he’s got all those racks behind him, all numbered. Now, what's that, what’s in those racks Jim?

R- Well, in them racks there'll be roller temples, there'll he every spare part, what we call .. fork grates, forks, everything that you want to keep a Lancashire loom running.

Aye, and what's the numbers on them for?

R - Well this was done out in the old days. These have never been changed since this place were put in. Numbers on there was, they used to have a system by … they might start off at number 1 and they'd keep happen .. I should say, well, we just take for an instance fork grates, number 2 forks, number 3 cloth roller temples.

So in other word each locker’d have one particular spare in it.

R- That's right. And then you’d come to others, you’d happen come, with being here, we’ve always had one or two different types of looms. We’ve had White’s, mainly Whites and Butterworth and Dickinson and Coopers which is three. So in some cases you need three types of spares. So everything were relating to what them numbers were on them, what I call cubby holes.

That's it That's something that’s only just struck me. Ideally you'd only have one sort of loom in a shop wouldn't you?

R- Which is the ideal set up, one type of loom. If you can work it that way, one type of loom. You only need one set of spares. Two types of loom and you're carrying two lots of spares and so it goes.

Obviously ...

R- Which is making it more expensive.

So the ideal weaving shed is one with one type of loom and one type of cloth?

R - Continuity.

Continuity.

R- That can't be bad, because that saves you everything if you’re talking of continuity that way, one reed count, one set of heald counts. And in some cases this is the way they work it in America these days. They'll weave one type of cloth happen for nine months.

Sounds like Utopia doesn't it Jim.

R- Yes. It's one of these here that you dream about, but it never happens in real life you know.

(300)

Aye, Next one, 35 is…



R - Is still the storeroom but it's relating to where you’ve a bench here and vices, which is what they'll use instead of these benches what I were talking about two or three minutes since. Such things as these up the wall side in the weaving shed. Now they've vices on these benches, and what they’re using them for now is such things as putting shuttle pegs into shuttles. I mean you’ve a vice there to hold your shuttle while you knock your peg out and then replace it with another one. But in the old days all that were done inside the weaving shed.

Yes. What’s the most usual thing that goes wrong with a shuttle Jim?

R- Well you can have all sorts of things wrong with a shuttle, you can have the shuttle eye getting a blockage, your shuttle eye won’t have been put in right. You get your shuttle peg, they won’t be lying in to the shuttle straight, now that gives you a lot of weft breakages. You can have your peg which is loose, comes apart as it's going across your race board which is going, passing your interlacing of your healds and your warp and your weft. That shuttle peg can come up if it is slack, so your pirn which is on your shuttle peg, it'll take half your warp out, half your warp ends. Top of that you can have your fur in wrong what controls your weft flow, because if you've no fur in them shuttles you've no drag on your weft so it just fluffs out. Now as that’s going along it’ll leave a little snarl in every piece of cloth, so that’s why you put fur in, to control that, it comes off at a steady flow. There’s taughtness on that weft where if you don't put that fur in it’s just slack and baggy.

Now then we are still looking at, looking at this picture of ...

R- We're looking into this storeroom.

This storeroom here, well I mean right fair, nowadays, looking at that, that storeroom is .. It’s a disgrace isn’t it?

(350)

R- Well, it's disgusting to look at it for the stuff that's laid about. Looking in one corner looks to be a damned hypodermic bloody syringe in it, so whatever that’s for I do not know. It’s nothing to do with the weaving section.

I think actually it’s a grease gun.

R- Is it?

Yes.

R – Well, by the look of that there isn’t much equipment round here, well that grease gun isn’t useful is it.

No, I think, is it for the motions, you know, for the dobbies, for the spring tops.

(15 Min)

R- No. Then there's bits of leather, old leather thrown here and there. There’s hammers, there’s old shuttle pegs. When you went in there in the old days that was spotless and everybody knew where everything were and you could put your hand on just whatever you wanted. Now, after t’war when you come back all that had changed, why, I just don't know.

How did they go on during the war with the blackout?

R- Well they'd all the windows blacked round and they used to draw blinds down. They’d a black edge. Have you noticed that there might be some windows left in which were black edged?

Yes.

R- That’s right. Well they used to draw blinds down and all, or otherwise if they'd had them blacked out Stanley, you’d have been lit, lit up all day and in a terrible state here, wouldn’t it.

I've often wondered, well how did they go on with the North lights in the shed roof?

R- In t’lights? I don't know how they did them.

Aye, I've often wondered, because I mean, you can't black a shed out!

R- You couldn’t. They had them black in some cases.

Lights on all the time?

R- Aye .. well they’d them on a good lot, as far as I can gather. But they’d, some of them windows , when we come back, they were all black.

In the shed?

R- Now what, whether they’d [blacked them] in certain parts and they'd, I don't know how they covered them after that, but they'd blacked down.

Aye. That’d be interesting to find out. Now then, Ernie’s up in the warp preparation department on number 36. Now what’s he doing there?
[I made more enquiries later about the blackout in the shed. {It was of course an anti air raid precaution} I found that they had roller blinds and in some cases the hooks and eyes which had been used for the cords that controlled them were still in place 35 years later.]



R - What he’s doing, he’s preparing a warp which has just come out of the drawing-in frame to take into the weaving shed. Now Ernest, when you look at this picture, Ernest is looking at his bands which is attached to his healds. Now what he's looking at, he’s looking to see if that band, if he thinks it’ll do that warp's .. life of that yarn that’s on that warp out. If not he’ll have to replace that with a new length of band. All he does is put two knots

(400)

in the bottom and makes it like a fixture with a knot which can slide up and down which tightens it up when he’s got it in the shed on to what we call his lamb wires which is affixed to a treadle. Now then you can't actually see this but at t’bottom of that .. see, them knots is that where Ernest is on them .. tying that up. If you could just see you’d find two hooks in t’bottom of that wood stave which is attached to the healds which is allowing your twist, warp twist to come through into your reed. Now then why there’s two hooks at t’bottom of them staves there, well in fact there'd be four, because that’s a four stave set of healds. If them isn’t there all they do, they make a hole through t’bottom of that wood stave and the bands run through that. Now your heald cording which is, when it’s knit it ran along t’bottom of that heald stave, what I call the heald stave. So if them bands at any time get out of place when they’re in the weaving shed and start either going one way or the other, there’s a tendency to wear all that what I call the heald cord knitting, which your wood stave
runs through .. and that’ll cut them at the bottom. And then them healds could come up because of the broken ends and cause the weaver to have what we call a heald smash..

Aye, and that would be had, wouldn’t it?

R- And that'll be bad, because that warp that's going in is a type which’ll have definitely to come back up into the drawing room.

What are those, the actual threads that a heald’s made of, what are they Jim, what are they made of?

R- They’re made out of different counts of yarn, just ordinary cotton yarn. Now then, it’s really one of the best cotton yarns you can get is that, they’re varying counts of well, what they call 16/20’s and such as that. And all they are is they are varnished, what we call a varnished heald.

(450)

Now them’ll have one coat of varnish and then they’ll be put in a drying place. As soon as that’s dry, it comes out and has varnish brushed on it again. They have to be careful not to put too much on or you’ll get what we call a rough set of healds, it’ll start leaving it a bit pitted, pin point in it. So if you get any of that in your second coat of varnishing you’ll get another build up when they come to put the third coat on. So they have to be very careful how they brush this coat of varnish on to that.

How many coats of varnish will a heald get?

R – Five, and then they're dried off.

(20 Min)

The thing that always amazes me Jim is…

R- And then they’ve to be dried off at a nice even temperature so as it isn’t quick dried and gets brittle.

Aye, the thing that always amazes me about healds is the way a varnished cotton heald will stand up to the warp going through it when you can see it wearing steel away.

R- Oh yes, well, it hardly touches that heald you know Stanley. If you set, what I call shed, them healds in a proper manner there’s very little wear on them. Now then, if you get a rough tackler and he sets them with two big open sheds, well, you’ve got one which is coming up higher than the other, a good lot higher, and they’re both coming down and causing pressure where they shouldn’t do. Now that pressure is taken up with your heald isn’t it.

Yes.

R- At the eye which is made in your heald, so it's either what we used to call it in the old days is we call bottoming which is going into the bottom of where your eye starts and it gives the yarn a sawing motion which will cut them through.

Yes. And some of the healds have metal eyes don't they, you call them mail eyes don't you?

R- We call them mail eyes. Now then when you use yarn which is of a very heavy quality and it’s sized heavy, if you don’t use them you wouldn't get wear out of a set of healds, you'd get happen about two warps at the most out of a set of healds. Because you think when…

(500)

I’m doing some now, 9’s twist, it’s a lot of pick in so that yarn is in your healds longer than something which is say, a 25 pick or sommat like that. It’s going quicker through you see with 25 pick.

That’s it, yes.

R - Now then, when you’ve got something which is up to a 58 pick, well it's in them healds longer.

Yes, that’s it, yes. And tell we something, I rather seem to think that I'd noticed that those polyzones like that one that Ernie’s on there, it's what you call a polyzone isn't it. Those are fairly rough warps, fairly heavily sized.

R- Yes. Well these are fairly heavily sized because…

But I’ve noticed Jim that when you do them you very often have your two front healds cotton eyes. Is it just chance that I’ve noticed that all the ones I've seen you do, they've had mail eyes at the back.

R- Well, I’m not in a position to have mail eyes on both back staves and two front ones. So to make things easy, and I'm going to get a better life, I generally split a set of four down so that I'm going to get two and two. Because your two back ones take most of the wear.

That's it, yes.

R- And so that’s why I split them that way. Now you’ve been talking about this warp that he has hooked up which is a polyzone. Why that is heavily sized is because we… at one side of that… Well take the warp as a whole, you've got three different strengths of cloth when it is finished. Where your black is, that’s where you’ve got the most strength. Now then, that’s going to take the biggest wear of anything. What that's woven for, the purpose of that cloth is to go into men’s suiting on his lapels.

I've often wondered what that warp were for.

R - So why it’s done that way is so that you’ve different strengths in three different places and that’s cut out so that it goes into your lapels. On what the greatest strength is you put this black to make it easier for the tailors. You can see it as you look at it.

That’s at this end isn’t it?

R- Yes, now and you'll come to another happen you'll get a different picture where it shows more of the stripe effect which is in the middle, So that’s slightly less hard wearing. So that comes second and then

(550)

that which is your spun is at the far end. Well .. that's something or nothing because that's a man made fibre and I'm not a man made fibre man and never have been. I don't like the stuff.

Ah. So that’s actually in effect three different grades of cloth all on one warp.

R - That's three different grades of cloth on one warp. Now then, they size that warp heavy because this black stuff which in your first stripe is a very hairy ... what can we say it is? It’s a wool and cotton mixture.

So that’d be a worsted won't it?

R- Which is termed a worsted. Now then, that's very hairy yarn so what they do, we don't size them in our tape sizing room, they have to be sent away to be done. So the tape sizers who do them make certain that they're laying them loose fibres on this worsted twist so that there is no shedding of fibres. Now what they do by doing that they oversize them. Now then, they've made

(25 Min)

certain that the worsted fibres are laid on that [dark stripe] but they forget that the sizing on where you come into your second part there, which is worsted and spun mixed together, two and two, then spun which is mixed in with that, has a hardening effect. Now when you come to your all spun at the far end of that warp there …

Yes, the white end, the far end, yes.

R - The white end, it's absolutely ruined by the amount of size they have put on [to stabilise] this black, is hard and dry, no life in it, nothing.

When you say no life, what do you mean, elasticity like, you know?

R - Elasticity that's in that is nil. It's been sized up that much, and then with the amount of size that they'd got on, they run this on what we call a multi-cylinder tape which is happen seven or eight heating cylinders. Now then, to make certain that they dry the heavy size they have on there, instead of knocking one or two cylinders out of steam, cutting it off, they’ve run that through all eight cylinders [with maximum heat]. So, with over sizing and over drying what they've done is dry that spun yarn off that much that it's lifeless, too hard to deal with.

Now when you say it's too hard to deal with, what effect does over sizing and over drying like that have on a warp, what effect does it have when it comes here. What are the disadvantages for us?

R- It takes all the elasticity out.

(600)

Yes, but what does that actually mean, does it mean more breakages in the looms or worse to draw or what?

R- It means you're going to have bad work all round, they are harder to gait for the tackler, they are harder in my position to draw, I've no give in it, I can't just whip it round me looming knife, I've got to bring my hooks, me looming hooks right? straight out with that and turn it round the hook or otherwise it wouldn’t bend round that and go into the reed. There is no elasticity in it at all and for good weaving you must have elasticity and you need your yarn to give. Because when you think of the weight that’s going to have to be put on to that when it goes into t'shed .. it's just ridiculous.

That’s the reason why when Joe’s taping, you'll see him every now and again, he'll just take one thread and he'll pull it right up won’t he, and let it twang back like a piece of ...

R- Yes, twang .. just to see what elasticity is in that yarn and how much give it has in it.

R- Whereas at Courtaulds or somewhere like that, they'd take a piece out and send it to the lab and they'd test it wouldn't they. Joe just does it with two fingers.

R- Yes, that’s what you can do. You can just pick it up, put it on one finger and let it quietly run up it like that.

That’s it, he does, I’ve seen him do it.

R- But this is what I call good yarn spoilt. But they play it safe and do all this heavy sizing to make certain they've laid these worsted fibre. Because then, if once they ... start shedding, if they under did them and then they start shedding… well that is weaving what I call shedding. [Jim is talking about the worsted yarn shedding fibres in the heald and reed and choking the yarn passages up.] So long as that yarn’s going from your heald, lifting up and down and your reed is going backwards and forwards, that’s taking more fibres off and gradually it will split and you’d have ends coming out. So they make certain that doesn’t happen but they are also spoiling that yarn. I can ring them up on the phone and ask them the amount of size that they have on them and they can't tell me how much percent they have. I think the sizing of that is 9%, so Joe would have to mix 11% and he can get a pick up of roughly round about 9% and that'd do that.

So in other words, we are not doing the job. In other words you think that Joe could get…

R- Our sizer, at the size end, different altogether and it would make a better job with that.

Aye. How come we have them sized out?

R - Well, type of warp that we are talking about now, Stanley, you've got to have a set up …

Oh aye, of course. It's a polyzone isn’t it, he can't do it on the back beams.

R – Yes, you’ve got to have a set up. We can't , no we can't do it on the back beams you see.

No, we’d have to…

R- I mean there is no other firm does it on, there's only two, one in Bradford and this one at Todmorden.

Aye, Fielden and Rigg.

R - And they've the set up to run these on to beams whereas ...

(650)

Yes, I understand you, yes.

R - Now if they run them on to beams they want the whole lot, they went sizing and all.

Yes, obviously.

R- So this is how it's done. But I can send that away and it’ll go to Bradford to be finished. And where on normal polyzone cloth you should be able to remove that size in half a day steeping in water, the amount that them sizers are putting on, they can’t remove it in three days and they have to put special stuff in to get rid of it.

This is at the finishers.

R- At the finishers.

Oh, so they’d he complaining.

R- So they’re complaining.

Aye, you can't win, can you.

R - You don't seem to be able to.

(20 Min)

Now then, Ernie’s up there with, he's stood on the repaired piece of floor isn't he?

R - Which is fortunate.

Why fortunate?

R- Because there isn't so bloody much repaired floor about our place. I'm on the last layer of wood, next drop and I’ll be through into the warehouse bottom but that's by the way.

[Jim makes an interesting point here in passing. The boarded floors in the upper storey of the mill were in two layers, a diagonal layer of heavy boarding with a lighter layer laid across the grain of the diagonal boards to give a wearing surface and minimum dust drop out below. In a well maintained shed the top boarding would be renewed occasionally but at Bancroft it was just patched when it became dangerous. Where Jim has his buffet behind the drawing frame he is through the top layer.]

Aye, with buffet.

R- With buffet.

It’ll last out while Christmas Jim. Yes.

R- Yes, so anyway, what he's doing, he's just seeing that his bands is right, so as he can wheel that warp straight into the shed to put into the loom, ready for gaiting that up to be woven into cloth.

Yes. Now leaned up against the wall over there at the back there’s some sets of healds and reeds that have come straight out of the shed. And some people would perhaps wonder why they're brought out as they are. They’re out of the loom still threaded up on the last piece of that warp, with a piece of cloth on one side and all the ends knotted up on the other side so they can't slip off. Now why are they brought up like that Jim.

R- Well they’re brought up [like that] because them can be what I call re-knotted back in our Barber and Coleman knotting machine to make a loomed warp or a drawn warp. Now them that are shown in this picture are stood up against that board so as that man, the operative on the Barber and Coleman knotting machine could just go there when he gets a repeat for that cloth, pick over whichever set he wants out of that lot, put it in his frame and re-knot it back by his machine, his knotting machine, so what it'll do it’ll pick one end off his top needle from his warp in his knotting machine and his bottom needle will pick one off these healds and reeds which is there, and then it puts both ends in a knotter which just turns them round like that and there you are, that's your knot.

So in other words that machine is doing the same process as the old twister did.

R- As the old hand twister.

Used to do in the frame, what you were doing when you first came to work here.

R- Yes. When I first came to work. Well that's done on what we call the Barber and Coleman automatic knotting machine. And where it takes me happen 45 minutes to do say 2000 ends, he'll go across it and have it out in ten minutes.

Yes, but there are disadvantages aren't there, because there are certain types of warp that our Barber Coleman can't manage, like these polyzones.

(700)

R- It can't manage these polyzones because .. it can't pick them out, can’t pick two and two out of different sorts. As long as it's a plain one and no cord in it…

Aye that’s it, aye. I thought that it was because of the type of yarn, it's not, it's because of them stripes isn't it.

R- No. It’s because of the stripes you see. He can't set that machine up to pick, when it comes to this stripe effect he can't ..

In the middle, aye.

R - .. pick it in the middle to pick two whites, two blacks, two whites, two black.

That's it.

R- He can't do it like that you see. What he’d have to have is a different machine, and have leased warps.

Called?

R- Leased warps, they have a band in which you've used split your colours from your other ends.

Ah, almost the same as putting bands in on the tapes

R- That’s right, yes. And that's the way they work and when they come to a cord..

And when you say leased, what do you mean, leased?

R- Leased, we call it leased.

Yes that’s it, aye. I’ve seen that term and I didn't know what it is.

R- Yes well that’s putting bands in, same as we do when we are on the tape.

I don't like it, the shop’s shutting down and I’m just starting to learn Jim. Now, the Barber Coleman, when it was brought in it’d be, well they'd think it were bloody marvellous wouldn't they?

R- Oh, when it were brought in… what did you say?

The end of the twister.

R- Yes it were a bad day for the hand twister. Hellish bad day for the hand twister. But they’re not foolproof, if they’re not looked after right, and unfortunately ours isn’t in right good nick, it's never been sent back and overhauled and such jobs as that. If you're not careful and you’re not brushing [Your ends] out straight you can get crossed warps with it because it doesn’t, it isn't like a drawer, it’s picking them ends them warp ends individually one, one, one, all straight. It’ll happen go a one and a miss and a two.

Yes. How do they do it in the more modern sheds now, because I mean, obviously, the Barber Coleman is out of date now.

R- Oh, the sophisticated machinery they have now Stanley, you can go up in a drawing frame to 65,000 [ends a minute]. Oh, they gait this up and do this and this and then they press this button and that button and it’ll go across and pick you any colour you want or any pattern you want. Same as it’ll do some more like a card effect. They are like a bloody computer consoles.

I think I did hear you once say that Barber Coleman brought one out.

R- Barber and Coleman’s in the old days, they brought an old type of drawing machine out and it were oh, it were a bloody crude effort, horrible. And when you set it up it broke, it sprained more bloody reeds, and deadly it were. It did more healds and reeds in than what … So gradually they faded out.

(750)
(40 Min)

We mention from time to time about how this firm tends to make do and mend …

R - We have got to do.

Now I’ll just trigger you off here Jim. That new piece of floor there, it’s noticeable that there are a lot of cut marks and funny looking marks in that floor. It looks as if it's had a terrible beating just where Ernie’s stood. Now whatever could have caused that?

R- I can tell you what’s caused that with just one glance. But bear in mind what you're talking about here has saved this firm thousands of pounds.

How’s that Jim?

R- Well, I chop all my reeds down there. I can't afford to go out and buy a new reed at £15.50 so what I do, I go out and beg from some friends of mine in the same textile business as myself and see if he’ll give me a few reeds. Irrespective of width.. If they're wide enough that's all right, but I don’t want owt which is too narrow for my 40 inch looms because it's no good to me, it's junk.

You can't stick any on.

R- I can't stick any on. You could do with splicing them, but I don't want so much work. So what I do I get all he gives me above 40 inches and then I chop them down on this piece of floor that you've mentioned to various widths for my looms.

Aye .. that's right because that’s the best piece of floor In the shop isn’t it.

R- So that’s the best piece of flooring I have in the place and it's most valuable .. because when it’ll save a firm like this thousands, I can stand them holes being in that floor or the firm can.

Aye.

R- Same as me drawing frame, it’s saved them thousands. I’ve cut all our sets of healds down in there. But anyway, we are…

Yes, just one thing while we are on about this, and this will surprise a lot of people but, who does that drawing frame belong to Jim?

R- Mine. And when I leave this firm that bloody thing goes with me.

I’ll make sure, I'll help you to flit it.

R - Yes, that’ll go with me, all my rods, me wood rods that are laid into me healds, they’re all me own, they’re all me own hooks and wherever I go them go. ‘Cause I think every man should have his own tools.

1 agree with you entirely. You know I agree with you. I have mine.

R- And them’s my own tools and I mark my tools for each job. All right then.

I agree with you Jim. When I leave that engine house there won’t be a spanner left in it because they’re all mine.

R- So that’s why that floor looks tattered and torn. But it’s doing a good job, well it has done, it won't be doing one much longer I suppose.

Right, now we've gone through them pictures we can … you see we could chop that tape there. We’ve left a gap, we can chop it there. Now, let’s just enjoy ourselves for the last two minutes. What are you doing now?

R- Me? I’m just having a look.

(800)

Oh, you've been making a terrible rattling noise on that, you can have a look at them don't worry, you’re going to see all them pictures, you're going to see them all.

R- Oh well, I’m going to have a lot of time in a bit.

Eh?

R – I’m going to have a lot of time in a bit.

Oh, that's it. It's all right, no it's all right Jim but we're all going to have a lot of time. But we're going to do this job properly. Now then, what I just wanted just to do five minutes on now is .. I know for a fact that you’ve been … obviously this tape is made the week after we've got the news that we’re going to be redundant and all the rest of it. Now there is a thing, I were looking at last week’s tape and of course the last tape we did we hadn’t got the news.

R - No we hadn’t got the news it were closing, we didn't get it until the day after .

Oh no, wait a minute, we did. I made a mistake.

R- Oh yes, we did. We made it on a Wednesday last week, instead of a Monday.

That’s it, aye. Well now, the thing is that the word's got round now and we are getting … tell me about all the people that are ringing up and all the stupid things that are going on.

R- Well .. that phone is ringing more now than when we were selling cloth. People wanting to come and look at the museum piece which is the engine. We had one today.... they're coming to look at it with a view to buying it. We've had the BBC on wanting to know if there's been a preservation order put in for this firm. Well, people coming up, they want to spend

(45 Min)

a week up here, they'll make it a holiday week if they can just see the engine. So this week has been just a bit chaotic. I've been taking more phone calls about why we're closing down and what’s going to happen to the place. Whoever took our cloth over the last two or three year [has rung]. No, I should say by closing down James Nutter's, Bancroft Shed has become known throughout the country more than ever it were thought of before.

Yes, we shall become famous Jim. Aye, well, there you are…

R- So .. as you know, we’d Radio Blackburn on today with our Chairman on.

Oh yes, our managing directory yes. But the one thing he failed to mention when he was interviewed .. I don't know whether you noticed, but he was .. They asked him what the cause of the closure was, and one of the causes he gave was importing cloth. Well if I had a bob for every card I brought up here into the office that says that ‘your ship is now in Liverpool with so many bales of cloth on from Pakistan’, well I mean, ... how hard necked can you get?
[The post used to be delivered to the engine house before the office opened and I used to take all the mail up there.]

R- Well that's correct. Yes. And the group that we've gone under now, this Wrengate, .... as far as I understand it were one of the biggest importers of foreign cloth into this country. I believe they provide Woolworth with a lot of sheeting and pillow casing.

(850)

When you come to think Jim, it's a lot of, a load of balls isn't it?

R- Aye this is .. load of tripe, a load of muck.

It's all a load of balls. And the other thing, the other thing that he said that struck me, he said that part of it was due to the government. Well he never made any mention of the fact that the government's been paying the employment subsidy .. they were, I mean they stopped it as well we know.

R- Well as he said like, but it has been hard trading this last 18 months. Now, he hasn't had a bloody government subsidy coming in has he? That was stopped you see.

Aye, government subsidy, aye. ‘Cause that must have come to, well, 50 workers at £20 a week, I mean it’s £1000 a week, it's £50,000 a year isn’t it?

R- Which can’t be bad.

Well it seems to me it can't he bad.

R- So that means that there can be a general slackness with getting cloth orders, he has that guaranteed hasn't he?

Aye. And bad habits breed bad habits as we well know. Anyway there you are.

R- But everybody’s just realising it when you've took the birthdates and when they started and when they're going to finish, that we’re closing down.

Yes. One of the things that was mentioned to me today was the group photograph, I think we’ll have to have one on the office steps before too many weavers leave.

R- Well we could have.

I think we'll have to have one, one day when it's sunny we’ll just …

R – Get everybody outside

We’ll just .. bugger it, we'll wait while Birtles isn't in and we'll get everybody outside and have a photograph on the steps, aye, it'll be good won't it? I'll print one up and we’ll give… I’ll tell you what we'll do, we’ll do something the firm won’t. We'll give them all a present when they leave.

R - What the bloody hell are we giving them, don't go so high.

No, we'll give them a picture of t'group.

R- Of the group?

Wouldn't it be grand, that?

R – Aye, it would be.

I know they'd all be right suited with that wouldn't they?

R- Aye, they would.

I'll print them up and we’ll give them all a picture of t’group. As they leave as they get their notice. If you come and tell me who's getting their notice that week, I’ll make sure they get a picture of t’group.

R- Get a good picture, aye.

Aye that'll be grand won’t it?

R- Aye. But get the engine in somehow or other.

Oh we can't get the engine in and t’group. We can't get the engine in unless we did them all in the engine house. We could do you know, 'cause there isn't so many is there?

R- There isn’t so many because they’ll be thinning out this next week.

Well, we’ll wait while they've just thinned out a little bit because it’ll be all the young uns that’s going first won’t it?

R- It'll all be t’young uns that's going first. Do it that way.

Yes, that's it.


The last pay day at Bancroft Shed. Jim with his workers.

SCG/07 November 2002
7802 words



LANCASHIRE TEXTILE PROJECT

TAPE 78/AA/10

THIS TAPE HAS BEEN RECORDED ON OCTOBER 10TH 1978 IN THE ENGINE HOUSE AT BANCROFT. THE INFORMANT IS JIM POLLARD, WEAVING MANAGER AND THE INTERVIEWER IS STANLEY GRAHAM.


R- Getting anxious they're not going to get a job. You know, mostly the weavers. Well, like I say, you can't talk to them because a good weaver can get work anywhere round here. But they just want to get in so as that they'd have, you know, a place to go to. More so those people that's on happen four weeks redundancy pay, some that have no redundancy pay.

(50)

So in other words they're, they're looking out for jobs now, and as fast as they get jobs, leaving now.

R - They are giving a week’s notice you see, and going. And in some cases there will happen be some forfeit a fortnight’s redundancy if they can find work.

Aye. Which when you think about it, it's happen a sensible way of looking at it.

R- Well it is but I mean to say, the demand for weavers, you just can’t tell them that that demand is still wanted. You see, supposing all t’weavers we have here wanted to get in, there are still vacancies for all them weavers.

Aye, anyway, with the irons we’ve got in the fire, you never know, we might .. its too early to start cheering but you never know, we might not be shutting down.
[At the time this tape was made we had a false dawn because a lot of people were showing an interest in the mill. The day this tape was made I had been talking to some executives from ICI who said they were interested in buying us out. We didn’t really believe it but it was giving us hope.]

R – No, you never know but…

But it’s looking promising, looking promising, that’s all I can say.

R- But you see, as we are now, we’ve that many friends, which we never knew we had Stanley. I mean, in some cases they aren’t what I call friends because all they're wanting is your know how or where these cloth orders are.

Aye, no, we’ve never had so many visitors from little mills round about.

R- Oh no we haven’t, I didn't know there were so many mills running.

(100)

No. Who were that fellow that were here this afternoon?

R- He were from a mill up at Harle Syke.

At Queen Street?

R - Queen Street Mill.

Who were the bloke that were here this afternoon looking for you? Big young fe1low.

R - Smart fellow with a moustache?

No I don't think he had a moustache.

R - A big hefty fellow thin on top?

Aye.

R- He's manager from Queen Street. Actually he is a tackler. And he got this job at Queen Street, managing. Oh he were after something that we haven’t got such as healds, which when I told him we hadn’t bought none for five or six years he didn't believe us, there it is, five years. I don't think you’ll remember any of the old mill coming in.

I think we happen got a couple of sets once didn't we? When we were right fast. Don't you remember?

R- Well the only thing we did, we got two half dozen sets which were to do an order which I didn't carry any healds at all for. Which I couldn't make up out of nowt.

(5 Min)

Aye, that’s it.

R- And all the other orders that we've had from the heald makers is for heald yarn for piecing. And then they’re after leather which is such a price these days; pickers which is a price. This is the trend of textiles you see, they aren’t like these other units such as engineering and that. They can carry stock, I don’t know how much money they pay for machines and that, do they?

Oh, nowadays it’s just fantastic.

R- But when it’s a picker that’s £1.55, Textilaties want £1.55 for a picker. Now they don’t see what they’re getting for that cost do they.

Course, those blokes from ICI who were here this afternoon looking at the engine, when I told them how much the shed would go for, they wouldn’t believe it, 75 pence a square foot. I said to them, “You’ve been a bit bloody slow haven’t you?” Anyway, rumour has it that at least one of us has had his golden handshake.

R- Who’s that?

You.

R- Oh I had mine soon on.

Yes.

R- What it amounted to, one reference. And I’m the only one that’s going to get one too.

Is that right?

R- Yes, that’s what he said.

Are they going to give me one?

R- I don’t know.

I’ll ask for one deliberate.

R- Just try him.

I will, I’ll ask him for a reference.

R- I don’t think he thinks you need one.

Well, that means that he thinks you need one!

R- Yes. That’s it, after 44 years, a reference. Anyone that gives a reference at my age must be bloody queer or sommat.

Yes.

R- You see Stanley, when you look at the way the workpeople have been treated over the years here, it’s scandalous isn’t it actually.

Well, I’ve always said so. I've been telling you for years that you're a pillock stopping here.

(200)

R- Well it's like we were talking about, this redundancy, it's like somebody said to me, it's a dirty word really. When you think like you could have moved, and you think of the years you’ve been here, and you think “Me redundancy” So you hang on and hang on and then you hang on happen another six or seven years. And you think after “What a bloody fool I’ve been.” After, when it happens, don’t you.

Well I mean, you know yourself you could have been in jobs where you would have been on at least £1600 or £2000 a year more than you’ve been drawing here. I mean it’s all right, I mean you know your wage improved in the last year but they improved it at the right time didn't they, when you were about to go.

R- Oh yes, they improved it when it suited them you see.

Aye. I mean it doesn't take long at £2000 a year to make up for redundancy.

R- Well the more I look at it and I think what a bloody fool I’ve been because you see, these managers are coming in from other places and some of them .. they couldn’t tell a bloody, a six inch pirn from a seven inch. All dressed up, car provided…

Ah but you see, you're just beginning to see the light, at 63.

R- Yes, 63. I've just woken up.

Yes, I mean I've told you before, if I'd been your business manager 20 years since we’d both had been bloody retired now.

R- And I think that, you know it's .. if you can bloody talk these days, Stanley isn’t it, to a certain extent.

Well, it’s knowing how to work the system.

R- It’s like… but textile industry Stanley, I don't know, there should be an alteration to it.

Yes, but do you think there’s money to be made?

R- There’s money to be made if you set your stall out right. I don’t

(250)

mean go to town really and spend .. or waste, what I call a lot of wasted money which isn’t necessary. My biggest doings is cutting labour which is the most expensive, Stanley.

Yes. But what’s the economical, what would you say were the economical number of looms?

R- The economical number of looms these days, I should say roughly round about a 550. And you see, if you've to rely on such as what I call bread and butter stuff such as gauze, as Johnson’s weave, you couldn't make a living off that, not with 550 looms Stanley. I mean getting 550 loom, having one or two bread and butter sorts with the weavers, which is only to ease the weft load, cut the shuttling time down you see. But you don't make, the firm won't make money out of that stuff Stanley; you want something with a bit or reed and pick in it.

Aye, them two browns. [A type of cloth.]

(10 min)

R- Two browns, You want sommat about 17's and 18’s with a 58 wheel, such stuff as that, 9’s and 10’s, you don’t need a lot, happen about 20 or 30 looms on that. With a 46 reed and a 50 wheel it’s producing a good cloth for which you're going to get roughly round about .. 30p a yard. Of course they aren't a hard weave, you know what I mean?

Yes. You're not taking a lot out of your looms.

(300)

R- You aren't, you aren't .. Well if you run them on the right type of loom, this is it, a lot tries to weave stuff where they're hammering t'loom to bits but if you put ‘em in the right loom you’ve no trouble with it. And weavers isn't taking no twist up. So if you've no twist coming down you are making money, your room's running daily, this in why I say give ‘em bread and butter sorts to keep that weft going which will allow for these thick wefters. But not overdo them by giving happen say six heavy wefters where you’ve happen four heavy wefters which are only lasting two and a half minutes. To a weaver it's just hopeless. But we could improve it by giving them a weft carrier.

Yes well, if winding were shifted into the shed, that’d mend that up wouldn’t it?

R - This is way it should be you see. Because what you take upstairs you've got to bring down, to me this is all money Stanley isn’t it? Waste of time, waste of money. So all you need to do is have your winding in the shed .. which is the natural thing, for pirn winding to be where your weaving is. And then that's an easier job for you when you come to you’re weft carrying.

Yes. Taking empty pirns back and all.

R- That’s right. So if you have say 550 looms your weft carrier's going to be occupied with that, but if you're talking about running 120 looms you’ve a weft carrier and also someone to clean up, somebody there. And improve it by moving the toilets, you don’t want to have outside toilets these days, which is just disgusting I think.

Well I mean, these toilets are just ridiculous, nobody believes us.

R- Toilets are in a disgusting… they’re disgusting Stanley.

Cast iron grill in to let the wind in and stop them stopping in too long.

R- Well them were the old days type you see Stanley. You want a part of the old days as far as training is concerned but you've got to move with the times and all. You see, people now they want weavers, they're crying out for weavers, and

(350)

when I mention to them “What have you got for transport?” They've no transport! So there’s one place at Colne, they're begging for weavers. Well it means that to get to Colne you’ve got to go to a bus stop at Skipton Road, you catch a Nelson bus at the top of Skipton Road which takes you to the top of Primet Bridge, and then they’ve three quarters of mile walk down the lane. Now it can be absolutely throwing down with rain. That weaver goes in there, what’s she going to do? No change of clothing. so are they going to run her back home so she has a change of clothing? If they are, they might as well have brought her to work. But they pooh, pooh that. Now that van [Bancroft used to use Wild’s Transport who sent a double decker bus to transport the workers. This was expensive and caused trouble because it arrived before stopping time and the weavers used to stop early and go out as soon as the bus arrived. Nutter’s bought a van and it was driven by Ernie the clothlooker who didn’t leave before stopping time.] has saved us money hand over fist. We’ve, been producing cloth which we’d never have produced because folk wouldn’t have walked up here, they’d have gone somewhere else wouldn't they. But firms, they think if you mention transport … Well you can take it now Stanley, take Lontex, they’ve transport, Silentnight, they nearly all have transport these big firms haven't they?

They've got to have, they've got to do.

R- So they worked it all out, if they, if they didn't have this Stanley, they had no workers had they?

Yes.

R- But why should textiles be any different, especially around this area?

Well it makes you wonder, but I mean, I suppose the short answer is that there isn't enough profit margin in t’job.

R - Well then if there isn't any they want to shut the doors.

Which is what they are doing.

R- Which is what they are doing. But you see you'll find it's mostly these that's been taking it all out and putting nothing back, isn’t it?

Yes. Well, look at Smith & Nephews and places like that, they seem to be going on.

R - Yes they do. Well…

Bairdtex.

R- They're what you call like vertical firms aren't they. But you take them other firms, which is still private firms Stanley. They can still make a do, and run transport. You take Reeds of Nelson, they can come

(400)
(15 Min)

into Barlick and pick up weavers so there’s some profit in it somewhere. If they're good, if they'll plough a little bit back Stanley .. they'll get production out of it.

Yes but you know that’s been my thesis for a long while. That’s what's happened here, this place has been treated like a milk cow.

R- Yes well, this is it you see.

They've just taken it out and taken it out and never put it in.

R- Taken it out. You see, if they wanted to clear James Nutter’s assets, they'd clear them, to put it to another concern, which is so unfair you see.

Which in effect is what is happening now, £60,000 for the building and £15,000 for the scrap and that’s it.

R- And that’s it.

That's what it’s worth to them now.

R- And that’s what they think of those workpeople who’ve worked here all those years, that’s never seen anything ploughed back into it. And it’s wrong, it’s a bloody fallacy to say “Where there's muck there’s money” because at this firm there’s plenty of bloody muck but still no money is there?

No, but it’s like… You know these blokes I've been on with this week. They can see the potential in it. And you know, their argument is this, apart from anything else, they can see the time .. and not so long off now, when this foreign weaving will start creeping up in price because there’s none being produced here you see. It'll start creeping up, creeping up, and they can see the time when the textile job here is going to be all right again.

R- I've seen times when a they weren't getting cloth from abroad so that put customers here in such a position that they'd come begging for cloth. They'd pay owt for it.

So they must have had a margin or else they wouldn't be paying big prices for cloth.

R- Yes, so the money is there, they’ll pay for it Stanley.

(450)

The ones making the money and the profit.

R- But you see on this .. they keep talking about importing. As long as I’ve been in textiles Stanley, they still imported cloth into this country because if they didn't… At one time they cut it down. Now, people that were complaining, they were such as finishers, bleachers, and dyers all such people as them. They were making people unemployed, because Lancashire couldn't produce what they, this home market required.

Couldn't or wouldn’t?

R- They couldn’t. You've got to import, the textile industry in this country can’t keep the home market going. So when that happen you see, all these such as finishing places were creating because they were… the staff were going, being made unemployed, they'd no work for them. Lancashire weren't producing it [unintelligible]* * * * * * * * * yards of cloth from such as James Nutter’s.

This is the cloth converters?

R- Yes. And what they do from there Stanley, they'd sell it, they’d have customers of their own, so like everything else the middle man had the cream out of it. Now then, this has eased off a lot because you take a firm like Tootal Bondmore’s, they use a lot of interlining for shirtings and such as this. Well they buy direct from us now, where at one time it were done by the middle man, and Tootal Bondmore went to these cloth converters.

A cloth agent.

R- Yes, well there isn't so many of them about.

Billy Clark used to be one didn’t he?

R- Yes. ‘Cause they actually had hardly any expenses did they. Just went round Manchester, went round the mills. They'd just warehousing Stanley you see? That's all they had.

And not so much of that.

R- And not so much of that because they knew that they were going to get shut of that cloth, so it weren't stood so long before it were shipped out again from their place to whoever were buying it, trade it out to Tootal Bondmore’s probably. But they’re the ones who make the money. [Tootal’s] Really and truly Stanley, there are good orders about. I don’t mean such as five hundred thousand yards you know, because them will he taken up by such as these that can really plough cloth out such as Courtaulds, on these jet looms and Saurers. But there’s always something, fifty thousand yards orders and thirty thousand which Courtaulds wouldn’t look at; they wouldn't do a setting up for that, but they are ideal for say a five hundred loom place. And there's some of these which goes on year in, year out. And in some cases the weather affects it and all, good summers, bad summers.

(20 Min)

How about weaving itself, you said something interesting when we were on about…

R- Oh you mentioned the concrete floor ..

Concrete in shed floors for looms.

R- Now to me, whoever built these cotton mills in the old days knew what cotton producing were all about Stanley and that’s all that they were interested in. Now, if you look at most of the mills round here, they’ll be set up where you’ve got hill sides, where you've a drainage of water down into the bottom. Now then, what they’d do, they'd run drains under the floors and they flag, happen put ash and just lay flags on top. Now such as that is ideal for cotton weaving.

(650)

Why?

R- Well, your temperature is what you call a damp atmosphere, which is ideal for cotton weaving. It gives it more elasticity and keeps your cotton at a more even temperature. So once you've concreted the floor, you've took all the beauty out of that floor Stanley, because you’re going to have a drier floor so you’re going to have to find some artificial means such as humidifiers, of putting that damp atmosphere back into that cotton that you are weaving, haven't you? Now this is... well, there is nowt like natural things Stanley you see. In some cases you'll get this moisture coming out in a fine spray if they’re not set properly don’t you? So the weavers are making more bad cloth. Well they came with all sorts like that, it gives them more rheumatics and such as that. But you can have such as that and there's no doubt about it, you can go in the shed at, leave it at Friday night and come in on the following Monday, and you’ll have what we call the starting handles rusting a bit which can't be of any advantage to a weaver, can it?

Yes, that’s with humidifiers, is it?

R- That’s with humidifiers. Now you've nothing like that with a natural floor.

No you don’t do you?

R- No.

No, as long an them looms don’t get wet with a leak through the roof they stay shiny for ever.

R- Without a leak through the roof they'll shine for ever you see. Now this in why I say you take beauty out of cotton weaving when you do a floor with concrete.

Aye, I can see that.

R- You see, you take it, take Johnson’s now Stanley. That’s in a bottom isn’t it. But they've like a concrete and then they've put like a tarmac on top of that haven't they.

Yes. And painted it.

R- And painted it. Admittedly it’s clean and swept down. It's far better, better atmosphere for people to work in, you want that these days don't you.

Well yes, but I don’t think much of the atmosphere in Johnson’s shed when I go in.

R- You see now, artificial lighting .. well that’s no good, you want as much natural light [as you can get] that's why there were all them…

(600)

North lights.

R- Yes. But you go into places now and they're what we call underdrawn aren’t they, all artificial lighting. So I don't think you can beat natural light. But like a lot of folks will say “You talk nonsense” these days when you talk about humidifiers, they’ll do all that. Only I’ve been in these places and it just isn’t so Stanley. For the type of cloth that we weave and the yarns we’re using, we don’t have so much twist down [weft laid about in the shed. Weft, being in smaller packages, is more susceptible to changes in humidity.] to say the weaver has to do everything for their selves. No it's .. this is ideal. But like you were saying to me, you’ve got this in a natural state. Well, you can say this is the change over from handloom weaving to the first Lancashire looms and belt drive that were going, and nothing's changed here has it?

Nothing.

R- Nothing. So if you wanted to keep this as a going concern and a show piece, why change the floors because you’re taking all the beauty out of them that installed these mills and knew everything about what were going to happen in here Stanley.

So what you do is lift the flags and level them.

R- All I’d do is lift them flags and level ‘em. Or otherwise you're going to have to do the same as the others, install a humidifier system. And you’d have to buy, in some cases you might have to buy, pay a bit more for your yarn.
[This is a very important point. What Jim is saying is that under ideal conditions of humidity, temperature and air circulation you can get away with using a cheaper grade of weft, usually a shorter staple. When people say that Lancashire is good for cotton because of the humidity this is what they are really talking about. It is the reason why so many sheds like Bancroft were built into the side of the hill so that the back walls were actually largely below ground level. This was quite deliberate and a key factor in choosing a site for a shed.]

You know when you were saying about them flooding Pickles's from the canal? {At Barnsey Shed]

R- At one time, in the old days, what they had to do when they had them dry summers and that, they used to, when they'd finished at night they might pump from the canal, and pump water on to the floor to keep it, give it that, still that damp atmosphere.

In the shed.

R- In the shed. Not just Pickles, that's what they used to do in some of these places that were dry you know. And it used to smell terrible but .. never owt like that happened here, going back to when we had that dry summer, [1976] nobody ever noticed it, not with the weaving side did they?
[During very hot weather and particularly during the annual two week break, weavers would lay a damp cloth over the beams in their looms to ensure that there was no drying out of the warp.]

Oh no, t’floor were damp all the time.

(650)

R- In some mills you could see them before Stanley, they’d have all wet rags under the warps so, as they thought, they'd draw a bit of damp up into that beam. That's why Lancashire were the main shop for cotton weaving Stanley, weren't it, for the damp atmosphere.

Aye that’s it. Well they always used to say if you followed water you’d find weaving at t’finish.

R- You’d find weaving you see?

Aye, they always used to say that.

R- So I don’t see why this couldn't be done you know, economical, and still a show piece. But straight away I'm dead nuts against a concrete floor.

Aye. And leave about 50 or 60,000 square feet free for letting, which can’t be a bad thing.

R- Now then, if they come with an idea on looms Stanley, they want it more or less for a show piece and let the other off for storage, which is an attraction .. I wouldn't touch a thing, but just break it down, you know, into one small unit.

Concentrate.

R- Concentrate. It's so as that it's running, if anybody wants to visit and have a look round.

Well apart from that, 120 looms if they were kept running, they'd pay wouldn’t they?

R- Yes, you’d draw money, it wouldn't be all loss.

No. Which can't be bad.

R - You see, there’s to nothing worse than coming into that engine house and everything’s stopped, it’s like a bloody cricket field on a wet day to me.

That’s it.

R- Isn't it.

Yes. You’re right, I mean if you're going to .. you know yourself I’m not a preservationist, but there’s only one way to preserve sommat like that and that's to run it and doing sommat.

R- Well, how do you see the beauty of a thing unless it's moving Stanley?

Aye but apart from that it’s nowt . I mean if it's cold, it’s got to be warm and spitting at you. That’s an engine. If it isn't it’s just a lot of scrap iron.

R- Same as with that, how the oil flows up into the cylinder .. it's amazing isn't it really you know. But same as with that, if the bloody thing’s stopped, nobody sees such things as that Stanley.

Oh aye, it’s funny but those ICI fellows this afternoon were fascinated by the sight glasses, the lubricator glasses.

R- But this is it you see. This is what I say.

Them were upper management from ICI.

R- You see a big thing like that and the smoothness of it. Well anybody who saw it stopped would think there’d be such a bloody clash and a clatter when they start that wouldn’t they. And they’re never going to get to know because it’s just stood there doing nowt isn’t it.

(700)

Oh, we have a recording of it Jim, we can let them know what it did sound like. Aye. And the management finishes at the end of this week…

R- Well, he finishes actually on Tuesday night. He starts his new job on the 1st of November.

Oh, this Tuesday night, tomorrow night?

R- No, next week.

Oh aye, next week. Well wait a minute, first of November, when's the first of November.

R - First of November will be next Wednesday.

What's the date today? Oh it’s the 23rd today. Th'art right.

R- Sommat like that, I think it were 20th on Friday or something like that. So you see, you take Johnson’s Stanley. Well now I'm just giving you an example, there couldn't be a cleaner shop nowhere could there.

No.

R- You’ve seen it yourself. Can they get weavers? No! They've done all that .. and they're running two shifts and what I call a medium shift. Now, they admitted their selves to me that for weeks now they've had looms stopped to the equivalent of 19 to 25%. So when you come to average that out, there’s always …. They’re only running 75% it's a lot of looms stopped. There's some production there, and they're all bread and butter sorts that they're weaving now. They’ll cost you happen about 5.75 pence a yard, so you should be turning some yardage off to make a profit out of that Stanley.

That's if it wasn't a vertical company, if it were, if you were weaving it for their selves.

R - That's it, yes.

Which is the way you should be looking at it.

R- But you see, folk gets a wrong idea, like when the personnel officer rung me up. I says well, you are going the right bloody way, same as us! There’s only one end to it. Well, she laughed at me. But how long a firm can go on standing that loss I don’t know Stanley. Do you?

Well it is rather a special case, Johnson’s isn’t it, because they're reckoned to be ..

R- Yes but you see, it's only a special case for so long. Look at the money, look at the money that’s been laid out in that place Stanley. That money's got to come back somehow or other hasn’t it? But the man that were in charge when all that were done, he’s left now. So whoever took his job over, he’s going to be watched. What he's got to do, it isn't a matter of beautifying with him, he’s got to produce hasn’t he. He’s not left with an easy job. Because anybody can tell somebody to paint can’t they! It's a far different job is that to telling somebody to produce.

Aye .. no, you’re quite right.

R- And that’s what the textile trade is all about Stanley. You’ve got to produce to make money.

Well to me it doesn’t take a lot of weighing up that, once the looms are stopped, I mean a thing that I could never understand here was how the management could be so blind as to let payments for yarn orders get so far behind that the spinners were refusing to let us have yarn. And that meant that we had weavers stood at stopped bloody looms and we had to pay them.

R- This is what happened.

Because, I mean, one stopped loom takes the profit off that set. I mean, if you’ve got to pay a weaver a wage for a week for a loom that’s stopped, it's just mad!

R- You see I can’t, what I call the dead wood Stanley, you get so far and… It's no use having two real tip top weavers and say six that's only middle, medium. Because them six make them two look bloody awful on the profit side, don't they? So the only thing to do with that is you cut so many don’t you. But no. So if you’ve no backing what can you do.

Aye, now when you come to weigh up if you had like .. Christ if you had 120 looms and twelve weavers like Olive Whittingham.

R - This is it Stanley, they're there.

Mary Wilkins?

R- You see, if you made it attractive enough it’d pay you because…

That’s it.

R- Because such as Olive Whittingham and Mary, they are what I call hungry, they want the money.

Yes, that's it.

R- And they can go a full morning and never go to the toilet, never mind go out for a smoke.

Yes, Them’s the ones that are worth the money though, that's the thing I can't understand.

R- These are the things which .. you pay extra to such as that because you’ll get it back.

I think so.

R- But I don’t know, you can’t get anybody else to see it. So you only need a few like that and you could honestly say you could pay them £50 a week and they’d show you a profit, because it’s in ‘em, they don’t know what it is to have a loom stopped.

I were watching Lottie today, as long an they're weaving Lottie can knock it off, can’t she.

R- Lottie is one, she’s hungry, but you've also got to have some good cloth with it and all Stanley, which such as Olive Whittingham and Mary can do. You’ve got some that can produce and make good cloth. But you see

(800)

there were nothing to keep them, there were no incentive for them to stop Stanley. And you’ve got to have an incentive haven't you? Everybody says “Well, where are you going to start?” But somebody has got to start with something, at a figure haven't they? And you work off that. And if you started and [paid bonus] for attendances you’d get more coming to time, putting more time in you see wouldn’t you Stanley?

Because you were starting to pay more.

R- Yes, same as I’ve said with the transport, fortunately we have that van which has paid for itself, but other firms don't look at it like that. But you can’t expect a woman to work a shift, wait a quarter of an hour to catch a bus in the cold and then have a mile to walk when she gets off that bus at say twenty past ten at night could you.

Not really.

R- Well, I wouldn’t like my wife to do it anyway, would you?

No, certainly not. That’s another thing that strikes me about something here. I mean, you know yourself, I mean we’ve both got bloody well fed up with it, but over the last few weeks all the talk there's been about it being a shame that Bancroft’s closing down and wasn’t it a marvellous place and the engine's beautiful, and all the rest of it. But I’ll tell the thought that keeps going through my mind, how many of them buggers that’s saying what a marvellous place it were would ever come and work here?

R- This is it, because there’s no incentive.

They’re all people that's working at Rolls on £55 a week sweeping the floor.

R- You see you don't need to he stood over anybody Stanley, to get them to work do you?

No but I say, these are the people, the people who are saying things like this are the people who are working at Rolls getting £55 a week for sweeping the floor.

R- Yes, which you don’t need no skill, yes. All you need, a bloody bucket and a brush and a mop and a tea trolley and within three hours you’re skilled.

Wouldn’t that be grand if Elva came back.

R- Yes, this is it. This is where they’ve lost them Stanley. And once somebody goes out of textiles you’ve a job getting them back haven't you?

I don't know, I think there’s such as Elva Martin, if she knew that she could draw say £50 up at Bancroft, I think she’d be back in a crack.

R- Well I should say, even though there’s muck and everything about, I should say the atmosphere in Bancroft Mill is far better than t’Rolls atmosphere.

Oh it’s different, it’s just a different thing altogether. It’s like a bloody holiday club this place, it's holiday camp.

R- Well, same as now, I know everybody’s a bit down in the dumps but I don’t think there were a happier shop anywhere than this.

Well it isn’t unhappy now.

(850)

R- No, but you see, this is the way you can get work out of folks Stanley, without… You don’t need to stand over them.

No, you don’t need carpets round t’looms, either.

R- This is it. All they want is something different to a bloody toilet outside don’t they? And just swept down as if they were, if occasionally they’d done that as though they thought about the workers here.

Once a year would do.

R- Yes, it would satisfy them Stanley. And if they could get the floor swept up.

Well I mean, what makes that shed worse than anything else is the fact that we've got five hundred and odd bloody looms in there and only two hundred running, every weaver’s stood there weaving and looking at a lot of looms covered with dawn. There isn't a weaver in that shed that isn't looking at a lot of empty mucky bloody looms, beams to them. Well there's happen a couple, Mary Cawdray is the only, there might be a couple, aye.

R- There’s reason in being over generous and in being skinny isn’t there. And this has got past being bloody skinny.

Th’art reight theer.

R- Because I really think they've had the best workforce in the North of England here to put up with the conditions like we have here Stanley.

Well I don’t see how they could have been any better. I mean we've never had a minute's trouble never a minute and hardly a wrong word. If there is, it generally finishes up with a bloody laugh.

R- I might have a weaver walk out occasionally but they are back at dinnertime.

Of course, I suppose a lot of people would say that really, you know, the trouble is that we are an anachronism, we’re behind the time. Which is right I suppose, but it’d be grand if we could just stay that way, behind the times for a bit longer, because I have a sneaking suspicion you know Jim that, same as these blokes that I’ve been on with this week, things might just change and it just might come that the textile job could get some bloody profit in it again. And when I say profit, I don’t mean hand to mouth profit, I mean it might be worth doing. Because overseas production isn’t getting any cheaper.

R- And the more that go out, the buggers will get dearer Stanley. There’s only one answer to it, once a market's cornered you’ve had it.

Yes and anybody that has managed to stop in will be on some prices. And even better off because they're home producing and if prices are the same people would rather buy off home producers than imports any day.

(900)
(40 Min)

R- But you see, I don’t know how to do. You take it Stanley, Leyland say there's more bloody foreign cars on their car park than what there is English. Whether that's true or not I don’t know. But you said well .. take Silentnight with their beds, I mean the bed covering where the springs are, if they advertised it that it was all British cotton, do you think they’d sell the bloody beds any better?

Well let’s put it this way, I don't think it would do the job any harm. But I don’t think it’d be an overnight sale success. So I don’t think it would do it any harm, but …

R- No but you see this is why Stanley, they're going to be left and there's going to be no textile industry in this country. They’re going the right way to shut it, there's more spinners on the way out now. So if you could get a firm like Silentnight boosting the British textile industry, giving it a boost, it encourages others with the name that Silentnight has, what they've grown to now. You've got an outlet if you follow what I mean, haven't you.

Oh I’d have thought so. Of course, I’ve never been able to understand why Silentnight don’t weave their own stuff.

R- You see Stanley, there's nobody that speaks up for textiles, not even their own bloody union do they.

No they don't.

R- Because all they get off the government is .. no matter what the textile men say, they’ll get no more because they’re subsidised now.

Well I mean, somebody said to me today, they pointed out to me when I were playing hell about the Tories, that Raymond Hill wasn’t Tory. I said "I don't know so much. I think Raymond Hill might be the best bloody Tory in Barlick, even though he is Secretary of the Weaver’s Union and a Labour man. Because by God he acts like a Tory.” And I think that these Trade Union fellows do when they get into a high position, they all act like Tories.

R- But you see, there’s, to me there’s that bloody many set ups of unions in textiles Stanley…

Yes well, they've got to rationalise, and they're the same as the car makers, there wants to be one union for one shop, that's it.

R- Yes.

One lot of negotiations.

R- You’ve got the Overlookers Union, you’ve got the Tapers union, you've a Drawers and Beamers Union. If you’re skilled you should be skilled in textiles shouldn’t you.

Well.

R- And I call everyone in this place except such as Colin Macro, skilled. Because they think he’s a nothing because a bloke comes out filthy, there's no skill in what he's doing, such as loom sweeping. And he can save the firm hundreds and hundreds of pounds a year.

Oh aye. Well, that to me is one of the tragedies of the textile industry, that the weaver has never been really recognised as a skilled job. That’s the reason why I spent so long taking pictures of weavers because I’m full of nothing but admiration for them. I think weavers are bloody marvellous, that’s all there is to it. And anybody that says that they aren’t skilled has never watched a weaver working.

R- Especially a Lancashire loom weaver.

Well, Lancashire loom weavers are all I know. But from what I’ve seen of these automatics they're machine minders not weavers.

R- That’s what they are Stanley.

You could train bloody monkeys to do the job. In fact it won’t be long before they have a computer that will do the job for them. Well, they are bloody near computers now, they change weft themselves don’t they?

R-That’s right.

No, to see a weaver coaxing cloth off a Lancashire loom… Anyway, not so bad Jim.

SCG/08 November 2002
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